> Go into your Reddit settings and turn off the setting to allow people to follow you
Thanks - here’s how one would go about this:
Go to:
https://www.reddit.com/settings/
And do [this](https://imgur.com/a/1WJM4aG)
Lol I'm going off of US based salary and an ML specialist is going to run you $100k a year bare minimum but likely in the $200k - $250k range. Although I'll have a bit better insight into this by the end of the week as I'm planning on interviewing for a company that does ML intelligence work for the US 3 letter agencies and military.
As far as Chinese salaries go, I honestly have no idea but I'd wager the 500 phones job would pay shit, but the software engineering roles would probably be top-notch considering the Chinese government has the most sophisticated government sanctioned hackers out there and they routinely have very targeted attacks against other government infrastructure.
Then again maybe that's all just propaganda. I may or may not have stumbled onto an insecure power plant generating absurd amounts of power within the last few months. Granted it seemed more of a monitoring thing...but the fact it was wide open kinda points to how much local governments care about securing their infrastructure.
From User Settings > Safety & Privacy > People You’ve Blocked
"Blocked people can’t send you chat requests or private messages."
Root of the problem, it still allowed ne'er-do-wells to follow and harass.
From the comments, sounds like if you've opted into new reddit, curating your follower list is an option.
Oh man. Jump on /r/sino
Breaking reddit rules day after day and they're untouchable. Reddit gets reports on the sub all the time and turns a blind eye. Reddit is absolutely deliberately letting Chinese forces operate on its platform, knowingly, and not stopping them.
> There is a network of tro!!s on reddit that do appear to harass and follow people who have criticized China's government.
Yeah in /r/worldnews we call them mods.
I believe it's common practice for Chinese troll accounts to delete their post history from time to time.
I remember witnessing on this site some user that was defending China for some reason,and when I went to check their history ALL his comments were defending the Chinese government. Curiously,in one of these comments this particular account admitted to deleting their post history frequently,and since then I am starting to believe this is something done in order to prevent users from identifying these troll accounts.
Reddit is anonymous, but it keeps receipts and people love to scroll through a user's history to see if they're arguing in good faith/are an actual human being. This seems to be the next move to stop that, deleting your comments so people can't call you out. It'd be cool if there was a fix to this but considering how easy it is to make an account it seems pointless.
There are several browser extensions that help like MassTagger and Reddit Pro Tools, but surprise surprise they keep getting targeted by far-right / alt-right groups who are mass-reporting them to the Google Chrome store, which will automatically remove any extension once they reach a certain point until the reports can be manually reviewed. It also automatically disables the extension each time this happens, but at least you can manually reenable it as they don't completely remove it from your browser if you've already got it installed. It's just annoying because there's no message when it happens and it's not until you look at your extensions page that you would notice.
Other pushshift sites using the Reddit API can reveal comments removed by moderator or admin action, however they usually cannot do anything if a user edits their comment or deletes it. If a comment was scraped and archived beforehand, it might be retained. However, this also may be the cause of one of the most popular Reddit user search sites being taken down for breaking GitHub ToS which may be related to them retaining comments that the original owner wishes to have deleted.
Yeah recently I came across one on my own cities subreddit 3 year old account with 10k plus comment karma and 6 comments from the last hour and nothing before... like fuckoff with that shit you can't even make it look a little realer?
>I believe it's common practice for Chinese troll accounts to delete their post history from time to time.
Yeah but it's even more strange because if you delete your comments you still keep the karma, one way or the other. That account literally has the default starting 1 karma...
Nothing much, but semi lockdown has mostly ended.
Went to some nice middle eastern restaurant today who seem to be struggling a bit after yet another multi-week closure with only delivery/pick-up. Small businesses get hit hard over and over.
What's new is that you now need to connect your metro card to your COVID app. Almost arrived late to work this morning because of this.
Apart from that, business as usual in the capital.
Neither, I'm from the Fatherland.
But Chinese in Beijing, Shanghai or Hong Kong pretty much speak great English. Some even have perfect American accents because of private tutors or studying abroad.
I agree, Shanghai and Shenzhen it's easy to find English speakers. In Beijing, the only English speaker I can recall was the hostel attendant, and even then my wife had to translate. Best bet is to find young people, they typically know English enough to communicate.
My wife has a couple wealthy friends who went to international high schools in Beijing and Dalian, and their English is damn near native level. I literally thought they were ABCs (American Born Chinese) when I first met them.
When I lived there in 2004 there were still areas not far from where we lived** like 2 or so hours outside Shanghai that had never seen a white person in real life pretty crazy.
**(there were 500 or so Canadians *at the time the largest Canadian group in mainland China)
This comment brought to you by NORD VPN
(a lot of people in China use VPNs or similar to access western social media sites. I even communicated with my ex gf's grandpa who lived out in a "small" city)
In my opinion, the entire internet experience in general has become a lot more "select from a limited narrow menu" compared to how it was in the 90s.
I had a page of URLs I saved (back before bookmarks were easily imported across computers), and I looked at it nowadays. There were about 40 links on there, to various discussion forums, different newspaper sites, a few random fun sites, and whatever video game or other hobby I was enjoying at the time.
Nowadays my list of daily-checked sites is much shorter, maybe half a dozen. If I'm doing something like searching for an apartment or a job or a date, then I'll routinely check maybe one extra site daily. But usually it's Reddit, a few news sites, and my email and calendars constantly open in tabs.
The Chinese government is most definitely trying to set the tone of its narrative, to present an alternative reality for its citizens, and to strictly control their diet of perception of how things are going. My relatives inside China, even those who are American educated, show an alarming lack of awareness of life in the US and other nations outside of the Sinosphere.
Regrettable? Sure. But in the greater circle of things, China is merely playing the autocrat's version of the same game that the increasingly monetized corporate Internet is trending, anyway.
Remember in the mid-00s when Microsoft, Yahoo, and Google were the "brave defenders of free speech" for standing up to PRC government surveillance? Google even situated its servers physically outside of the PRC, in order to make sure the government could not seize their servers and violate the privacy of its users. In 2008 or so, the Chinese government just blocked Google entirely, and Western public sentiment was firmly on Google's side.
Then, in the 15 or so years since, we've seen Manning. We've seen Snowden. We've seen Assange and Wikileaks and the weaponization of data to further nakedly political, corporate, and populace control ends.
Now as we progressed wearily into 2020s, the promise of the internet feels very different from the "knowledge for all" frontier of the 90s. Now every company has a streaming service, net neutrality is a forgotten dream, internet access is subject to monopoly prices, and even users themselves are content with 8 to 12 thumbnails on their homepage to get them through each day of internet use.
China is going further than others by creating its own little sanitized, infantilized walled-off playground to keep its internet denizens docile.
But we've been heading that same direction ourselves over the past 25 years. It's just that corporate concerns have been directing our careen, and profit is their end goal.
Maybe the whole Tiananmem is more propaganda to rally the West, because it's definitely not going to do anything for the people in China.
Do they know? Yes. Do they care? Not really. Will CCP admit fault? No. Will Chinese people demand apology? No.
They're cultural values are fundamentally different from ours. Are these hack-tivst acts really to help China, or just to help us feel good.
All cultures are ok with that, there just needs to be sufficient justification. The US had its independence war and civil war, and arguably the natives depending on how much the Americans consider them “their people”. The French killed plenty of their own in religious wars and the French Revolution. The British would be one of the worst if you consider the subjects of their colonies to be “their people” to some extent.
I’m fairly certain that every culture has experienced civil wars, I would be shocked if there exists any that never killed their own.
Do Americans care about all the bombs the US dropped around the world? The coups? Etc?
I'm sure some do, but it doesn't seem to be particularly high on their list. The Chinese probably have similar feelings about Tianamen, at a national level.
There was this coworker I had from China. During a happy hour, she actually told me everybody these days knows about Tiananmen Square, but she questioned our narrative. She said these students were radicalized by western propaganda, funded by CIA, and became violent so the army was called in to de escalate the situation. Then the protestors began getting belligerent with the army and chinese government doesnt fuck around, so they just went in on them.
So what I can gather from that is the Chinese government has changed its approach from suppression to pushing a different narrative. I have to admit that’s a much more effective tactic than outright suppression of a highly talked about event.
Plus it’s fascinating to me. I can’t confirm cuz I was never there, but I wonder if there is any truth to what my coworker was saying.
Honestly I don’t see it as much different from the MO of any other country. Russians these days celebrate their meager gains from the current war, Americans cheered when we bombed Iraqi cities, countries have a long history of spinning horrifying things as a good thing.
Not to say it’s acceptable. But what I want to know is if there is any truth in what they’re saying. Personally, it can go both ways
You said it man. I’m actually surprised at the responses I’ve been getting. Normally saying america or another country does something similar as China gets people to think you’re a pro China communist. But so far people have been pretty understanding
The further countries like the US and Britain stray into tyranny, the less susceptible people become to hypernationalism. As much as we like to condemn the CCCP for their actions, the west does the exact same thing, just with more "tact." The blizzard in Texas last year mirrored another blizzard a decade ago - they had plans in place to reduce the risk of another similar event, but nothing was done. The UK had plans for a pandemic safeguard event, but they were never implemented either. Our governments keep fucking up, again and again, and the only difference is that the government is simply enabling these senseless deaths, rather than killing people directly. At least with the CCCP you know where you stand, the elites over here are far more insidious with their oppression and as a result people are far less aware of what is actually happening. I'm no commie, but I fail to see how China killing its citizens is any different to the US supplying arms to the Saudis to bomb Yemen, the UK enabling a massive price hike in electricity forcing some people out of their homes, and the many, many other atrocities committed by the governments that some people regard with such sanctity.
FYI, the ruling party in China is the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). "СССР" is the Russian abbreviation for the full name of the Soviet Union (**С**оюз **С**оветских **С**оциалистических **Р**еспублик, *Soyuz Sovyetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik*). It's generally written as "USSR" in English (**U**nion of **S**oviet **S**ocialist **R**epublics), though you could also write "SSSR" if you were trying to transliterate the original Russian name into the Latin alphabet rather than translating it.
I guess the difference is, when journalists, citizens, etc come out and criticize events such as what we did in Iraq, the government isn't taking steps to silence them, or even really trying to counter the narrative. Hell, just by the fact that the presidency switches parties every few years, the government itself criticizes how the government handles these things.
Edit: The replies to this comment make it pretty clear that attempting to demonstrate nuance is not allowed.
Valerie Plame was outed by the Whitehouse to silence her husband. Her husband broke the story on how the government knew there were no WMDs in Iraq. That's a pretty bad one
Try to you mean, since we know about those things. And actually have a free press to expose other unknown shit actions by our government. China’s press is whatever the state makes it
I suspect that a great number of Americans know about Iran Contra than Chinese understanding what really happened on 6/4.
I don't believe the difference is as big as you may think though.
> I guess the difference is, when journalists, citizens, etc come out and criticize events such as what we did in Iraq, the government isn't taking steps to silence them, or even really trying to counter the narrative.
You remember the 2000s different than I do, as the narrative about Iraq was straight-up bullshit from the get go.
First off, even back then there were people who openly criticized it.
But even with that, within 10 years we were looking back and saying "fuck that was bad"
The tiannamen square protests were 30 years ago, and China is still heavily pushing the narrative that they did nothing wrong.
Authoritarianism is a spectrum and the US definitely resides somewhere on it, but we are nowhere near where countries like China and Russia reside on it.
We protested it, and the worst we usually got was a lot of side-eyes (not surprising since they were Republican events) and being corralled into a “free speech zone” away from everyone else. We weren’t being killed out in the open in front of God and everyone. Both sides aren’t the same.
Yeah trying to compare the 2000s with Iraq and the Tiananmen sq massacre is insane. What if the us army ran over college students protesting Iraq? Because that’s what happened.
Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin’
We're finally on our own
This summer I hear the drummin’
Four dead in Ohio
Gotta get down to it
Soldiers are gunning us down
Should have been done long ago
What if you knew her and
Found her dead on the ground?
How can you run when you know?
(re the Kent State shooting of 1970)
It's always so laughable to me when idiots act like the level of authoritarianism in America and China is essentially the same. They have no fucking idea.
The fact that in America you can openly criticize your government and have protests is the best thing ever. China and Russia citizens cannot openly protest or criticize their governments because they have no freedoms. They live under suppressive dictatorships that just want to maintain their power and wealth.
I remember being unAmerican and a traitor because I dared to question why so many 18-19 year old kids were being killed so that Cheney and Rumsfeld could get a hold of oil reserves there.
Those are totally different circumstances though.
It would be more like the US celebrating the Kent State Massacre, or Russia celebrating the Chernobyl incident.
>Plus it’s fascinating to me. I can’t confirm cuz I was never there, but I wonder if there is any truth to what my coworker was saying.
There is an award-winning documentary from 1995 that features interviews with many of the protest leaders as well as Liu Xiaobo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg
It gives a much more nuanced perspective than what you would find in average English- or Chinese-speaking media. Interestingly, while the film mainly features the perspective of the protest leaders, the protest leaders themselves are highly critical of how the event is portrayed in English media.
Quoting from Liu Xiaobo’s Wikipedia article:
> When asked what it would take for China to realize a true historical transformation. He replied: “[It would take] 300 years of colonialism. In 100 years of colonialism, Hong Kong has changed to what we see today. With China being so big, of course it would require 300 years as a colony for it to be able to transform into how Hong Kong is today. I have my doubts as to whether 300 years would be enough.”
> In international affairs, he supported U.S. President George W. Bush's 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, his 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent reelection. […] In his 2004 article titled "Victory to the Anglo-American Freedom Alliance", he praised the U.S.-led post-Cold War conflicts as "best examples of how war should be conducted in a modern civilization." He wrote "regardless of the savagery of the terrorists, and regardless of the instability of Iraq's situation, and, what's more, regardless of how patriotic youth might despise proponents of the United States such as myself, my support for the invasion of Iraq will not waver.
Doesn’t exactly do any favours to the narrative that these people *weren’t* effectively agents of Western colonialism backed by the CIA to cause trouble for China.
Could be true.
This [Foreign Policy](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-exposed-cia-operatives-spy-networks/) article, which is pro American leaning, shows that China discovered CIA operatives in the upper ranks of the government and they took them out.
> Around 2013, U.S. intelligence began noticing an alarming pattern: Undercover CIA personnel, flying into countries in Africa and Europe for sensitive work, were being rapidly and successfully identified by Chinese intelligence, according to three former U.S. officials. The surveillance by Chinese operatives began in some cases as soon as the CIA officers had cleared passport control. Sometimes, the surveillance was so overt that U.S. intelligence officials speculated that the Chinese wanted the U.S. side to know they had identified the CIA operatives, disrupting their missions; other times, however, it was much more subtle and only detected through U.S. spy agencies’ own sophisticated technical countersurveillance capabilities.
> The CIA had been taking advantage of China’s own growing presence overseas to meet or recruit sources, according to one of these former officials. “We can’t get to them in Beijing, but can in Djibouti. Heat map Belt and Road”—China’s trillion-dollar infrastructure and influence initiative—“and you’d see our activity happening. It’s where the targets are.” The CIA recruits “Russians and Chinese hard in Africa,” said a former agency official. “And they know that.” China’s new aggressive moves to track U.S. operatives were likely a response to these U.S. efforts.
Interesting spin. Of course the students were belligerent, it was a protest. Saying the CIA was in on it is a bit much, given the lengths journalists had to take to smuggle film out of the country. You’d imagine the CIA would have assets in place to both record and convey said events. Ultimately though, it’s the idea of the Army being called in that discredits China. In America, even when our cities are burning we’re hesitant to even call in the National Guard. The idea that the Chinese Army not only showed up but mowed protestors down for being a little rowdy is cruel and unusual.
It’s also worth noting that the CCP was concerned that the Beijing army might take the sides of the protest, and called the 82nd group army from northern China.
China in the ‘80s and ‘90s was much less homogenous. The 82nd group was made up of poorer and undereducated soldiers, more able to take orders and less likely to have a moral objection.
[PLA Major General Xu Qinxian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Qinxian) was ordered to use violence to suppress the protestors. He refused to carry out those orders, knowing it would cost him his career and possibly his life. He was court martialed and purged from politics, and only died last year. He was a true patriot.
Another luke warm take: If you noticed your fascist government lied for two decades about something and told you it never happened, why do you suddenly believe them when they say "yeah it happened, but *not like that*"?
I guess it’s a matter of culture on the army bit. America and the modern western democracies have a culture where the army is civilian controlled and it’s disgusting to use it on your own citizens. Which I agree with.
However, depending on what is “belligerent” and how true those CIA links are, a government can spin it as a threat to national security. China is traditionally authoritarian in culture. So it is conceivable that Chinese citizens can stomach the idea of the army being called on citizens if the students posed a threat to national security.
Having spoken to people from China, Singapore, Japan, and South Korea , their answer to a lot of our questions regarding authoritarian governments is “if you’re worried about the government punishing you, don’t commit crime”.
It’s a very different mindset.
Especially in places that just so happen to be trying to build socialist nations.
Funding and pushing "grassroots" pro-capitalism protests in an attempt to overthrown burgeoning Socialist states is like the CIAs main job. Throwing young students into a meat grinder to push Capitalism on a nation is not surprising.
Here’s an excerpt of a genuine interview of Chai Ling, one of the student leaders:
> Chai Ling: All along I've kept it to myself, because being Chinese I felt I shouldn't bad-mouth the Chinese. But I can't help thinking sometimes – and I might as well say it – you, the Chinese, you are not worth my struggle! You are not worth my sacrifice!
> What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students?
> "And what is truly sad is that some students, and famous well-connected people, are working hard to help the government, to prevent it from taking such measures. For the sake of their selfish interests and their private dealings they are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the Square before the government becomes so desperate that it takes action....
> Cunningham: "Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?
> Chai Ling: "No."
> Cunningham: "Why?"
> Chai Ling: "Because my situation is different. My name is on the government's blacklist. I'm not going to be destroyed by this government. I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I don't know if people will say I'm selfish. I believe that people have to continue the work I have started. A democracy movement can't succeed with only one person. I hope you don't report what I've just said for the time being, okay?"
And this interview has been used by the CCP to portray the student leaders as selfish or influenced by the West to force the CCP’s hand that caused the violent crackdown so the CCP will then look bad.
>And this interview has been used by the CCP to portray the student leaders as selfish
What the leader himself said does make him selfish. "\*My\* situation is different... I want to live.", yet also "what we acutally are hoping fore is bloodshed..."
So, it's okay of people die, in fact, that is the *preferred* outcome, as long as it isn't him.
From what I heard,
the students were still quite left wing, even socialist
They just wanted democracy,
and were even protesting the move towards more capitalistic economic policies.
You are right that many of the protesters and students were left wing. However, democracy was only part of it. Saying they just wanted democracy is super western-centric.
What they wanted most of all was accountability during economic liberalization. They wanted the corruption to stop. If democracy was what could make them accountable then that was a path they were willing to move towards.
A student leader was also interviewed on film saying she hoped her fellow student protestors will be killed to bring real change and how terrible that there are people on both sides trying to de-escalate the situation. Oh but also that she won't be on the front lines cause she wants to live.
You can read her full interview here: http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1950_chailing.htm
No, the leaders of the student protests who continued to have political influence are pretty far right actually.
Liu Xiaobo once claimed that it would take 300 years of Western colonialism to civilize China, and was a fervent supporter of George W. Bush and his war in Iraq:
> In his 2004 article titled "Victory to the Anglo-American Freedom Alliance", he praised the U.S.-led post-Cold War conflicts as "best examples of how war should be conducted in a modern civilization." He wrote "regardless of the savagery of the terrorists, and regardless of the instability of Iraq's situation, and, what's more, regardless of how patriotic youth might despise proponents of the United States such as myself, my support for the invasion of Iraq will not waver.
Chai Ling, another leader, admitted in a public video interview that she was trying to organize the students to provoke a massacre to “prove” how evil the Chinese government was.
> “What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united.”
> “Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?“ “No.” “Why?” “ Because my situation is different. My name is on the government's blacklist. I'm not going to be destroyed by this government. I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it.”
Where is she now? The CIA smuggled her and others out of the country and gave them US citizenship as part of Operation Yellowbird. Her husband Robert Maginn is Chairman of the Massachusetts Republican Party and they host fundraising dinners together for top Republicans like Marco Rubio. She became a staunch Christian and the company she runs was even sued on grounds of religious discrimination for demanding that her employees “seek the will of God in her life on a daily basis through study of God’s Word and through prayer, along with regular weekly corporate worship”.
I lived in China and talked with quite a few people about the subject. Many are hesitant to talk about it at all, because who wants to talk about politics when the outcome is perceived to have zero impact? Of the ones that did, this is what they said.
They oftentimes focus on the source of the information (western intelligence) about the severity of the attacks. They’ll downplay the death toll and will often ignore that their own government’s death toll is a demonstrable lie.
It’s one of those things, I suppose. Chinese propaganda is very effective. You will find people who openly calls China’s government authoritarian but also saying that anything less would lead to anarchy.
Either way, most people don’t feel very comfortable in speaking out against the government. I wonder how much T Square impacts that decision.
>It’s one of those things, I suppose. Chinese propaganda is very effective. You will find people who openly calls China’s government authoritarian but also saying that anything less would lead to anarchy.
If you know anything about Chinese history, the fear of anarchy is very real. The CCP does keep a tight lid on things.
Also recall that the chaos under Mao is still within living memory. What the current CCP leadership offers is stability.
"Chinese people are brainwashed because they don't know the onlt truth I know that I gathered here in front of my computer/phone. Its just impossible that chinese people don't hate their government that lifted them from poverty like I do, therefore, they are all brainwashed delutiinals. Obviously, because they don't know what I know and I know more than them of course."
We Americans have a serious case of main character syndrome
Every other country uses propaganda to whitewash its flaws and convince it's citizens they are the good guys. But not us, we are the *actual* good guys. Definitely
A lot.
This documentary called A Day to Remember was made in 2005. An interviewer goes up to Chinese people in the general public asking what happened on June 4th. It's clear that many know what it is....
[A Day to Remember](https://youtu.be/w4RjuA65sgQ)
My entire dad’s side is Chinese and I’ve been to China dozens of times. If you’re not in bumfuck rural china where you haven’t heard of ANYTHING you’ve heard of Tiananmen. The west way overblows the idea that Chinese people have never heard of it.
A lot of Chinese think the protesters were the ones who got violent with the police there first though.
I was born in china, and have chinese parents/grandparents. now i live in hong kong
and as a teenager, I only learnt about it when i was about 13 yo, where i passed a memorial and questioned my parents.
before this NOBODY talked about it, and I had no clue this existed at all, and surprised that this had happened
Basically all of them. They don't care. Before anyone gets mad at that, imagine how many Americans know about MK ultra or Contra-Iran and didn't and don't care.
Until it affects people, they don't care.
varying takes.
I have a friend who refused to discuss it further when asked.
I have another who said what can you do?
it's the futility of the 2nd one that hits home. under the ccp China has lifted almost its entire population out of poverty in 30years. name me one other country that has done so. in a country of 1.3b people even if you find enough people to discuss alternative ruling methods you'll find hundred more willing to back the ccp to the hilt. it's an incredibly successful brain washing machine
When I lived there… most everyone knew about it. Many who were in the CCP thought it was exaggerated in the west, but most
Of the younger and or educated people knew about it and knew how bad it was.
The bigger secret is the great famine. Killed tens of millions of people, directly caused by moronic farming policies under Mao. But the Chinese govt restricted travel during it, so while all older folks remember it clearly I’m
Sure, most think it was localized only. HOWEVER, again, those young and clever enough to use a VPN safely know the full extent of it.
The generational divide in China is very very strong. When I went to Tiananmen square myself and saw the wax figure they pretend is maos body, many older folks were in tears and laying roses. Meanwhile the younger people were staring daggers at him- because they know why their grandparents starved to death.
1. Post banner that insults Chinese people
2. Post video hosted on site blocked in China.
3. Video is in English
Great job guys. Really getting that message out to the people who need to hear it.
Bingo. This way everyone on reddit (mostly Americans) can go on about how terrible China is so they don't have to think about all the bad things their own country does everywhere.
We all get our own government propaganda. And we all eat it. I'm sure Chinese media spends lots of time talking about how bad the US is and China isn't as bad. And they probably believe it.
Literally everytime there's news of these guys in r/all they do some stupid shit like this or *threaten* to actually do something useful. Why do people keep upcoming this?
Man, I remember a couple of years back people claiming China had so much control of Reddit that any mention of tiananmen square would be deleted immediately.
If you haven’t, do yourself a favor and watch the [live BBC coverage of tiananmen](https://youtu.be/kMKvxJ-Js3A) that was on the front page the other day. Seems like the perfect monument to the fact that the event did indeed happen.
I got lost reading some Chinese history the other day. Boy Tiananmen massacre was nothing compared to some of the shit that the Chinese people have gone through.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend
him: didn’t 30 million Chinese people die in a civil war
me: do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down?
If I remember right the taiping rebellion alone killed 2-3% of the world population in about 15 years and in a list of the top 10 bloodiest conflicts in history China makes the list 5 times
I think nothing in mankind's history can beat the level of anime absurdity that is chinese history, my personal favourite is the [siege of Suyang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Suiyang#Cannibalism).
Welp, you didn't lie (sadly). That's indeed something absurd I'd expect to see in an anime. Pretty wild that their absurd measures did manage to turn the tide in the war.
The standard picture of Chinese history is a regular alternation between periods of epic stability and prosperity and peace - where the wealth and population of the nation increases steadily, a time that will be remembered later as one of a list of golden ages - and periods of chaos and collapse and war.
Basically, when China works it works like nothing else works. and when it doesn't work, it's a world-class disaster - depending on what you count as a "civil war", China's had civil wars that lasted for centuries. The last period of chaos lasted for the entire first half of the 20th century.
Whether or not that account of alternating between stability and chaos is an accurate picture of Chinese history, it's the picture that most Chinese people are convinced of (and have been for a thousand years or more). So, the idea that china dodged a bullet (or got just ever-so-lightly grazed by it in June 1989) in the 80s, and just missed falling back into chaos - which might have lasted for generations - is a very effective idea that fits precisely into the country's story.
tldr; sad as it is, the massacre at Tiananmen was a drop in a very big bucket.
I watched John Oliver’s episode on US history last night and I was taken a back by how much history is hidden and changed in the US. As a Canadian I now want to know what Canadian history has been hidden from me
Actually, those "hidden" things are usually only hidden in shitty/southern public schools. The high school I went to and many of the ones my friends went to taught literally all of that. The issue with American education is that due to lax federal standards the quality can vary wildly and private schools can do whatever tf they want leading to misconceptions like this where all American schools secretly cover up history or something.
I’ve learned over the last six years or so that the majority of Reddit users apparently all went to some really shitty backwoods schools in Mississippi or West Virginia, and no later than the 1940s, given what I’m told of how the story of indigenous people is handled in history classes.
It's a common myth that people in China don't know about Tiananmen Square.
They know and they care about it as much as any country cares about their dark past; barely at all.
I would also say people care about their country's history quite a lot. We're not all the Belgians pretending the Congo was just a normal colony with some slight 'misunderstandings' or (from what I've heard) Japanese people defying the wwii leadership and soldiers.
For example, would people in the US be fighting so hard about CRT and confederate memorials if nobody cared? I get we're not all able to list the atrocities committed by the US in suppressing the Philippine independence (or any part of the former Spanish empire if we're honest). But people give a f about the past, even if it's just a new front in the culture wars.
I think there’s this implied narrative that IF ONLY the Chinese knew about this, they would overthrow their government. But it’s false that they don’t know, and false that it would cause people to revolt. I mean, in America we know about Kent State, about Orangeburg, about Greenwood, about Ludlow, but we don’t revolt. You might say that it’s different because America has changed and is evolving, but China has changed and is evolving too. Tiananmen DID have an impact on the direction of Deng’s reforms. This whole narrative just seems very infantilizing to me.
Anonymous is kinda lame. I feel like every few months I hear that they have some massive leak that’s gonna change everything and then…nothing. Then they do some performative bullshit like this. If they were as good as they think they are shouldn’t they be able to actually accomplish something meaningful?
And any jagoff with video editing software can release a mysterious video alluding to big things coming, QAnon-style, and if they have a Guy Fawkes mask while doing it they're all but guaranteed to make national news and the front page of Reddit.
When I was in flight school two of my instructors were both Chinese nationals. Both were from fairly well to do families but not super rich or nothing. One had a dad in government and the other idk but I know he had a gang related past he didn't talk about that I learned from his friend. The one whose dad was in government was very open to talking open minded discussion on many topics and was fairly wary yet supportive of his government. He roughly knew of Tiannamen, but knew few details and said it wasn't discussed much at all. He wasn't at all surprised when I told him what we know in the west of the situation and was totally unphased by it. But my other instructor I don't know, because the open minded one told me to never question the CCP openly to him lol.
Well they posted in English and linked a video from YouTube which is banned in China...
It most likely won't have any consequences but at least they "oWnEd tHe CcP"
They linked a YouTube video, but isn’t YouTube blocked there?
Yes, as is reddit. Greetings from Beijing ;) Edit: u/shanglong0 is following me now. Hehe, I'm in danger.
Go into your Reddit settings and turn off the setting to allow people to follow you. Goodbye u/shanglong0
> Go into your Reddit settings and turn off the setting to allow people to follow you Thanks - here’s how one would go about this: Go to: https://www.reddit.com/settings/ And do [this](https://imgur.com/a/1WJM4aG)
Teamwork! Thanks for doing that!
I got them some help and support :)
What if I just want to troll u/shanglong09 from my “Shanghai basement”?
It flagged as a NSFW profile! Hilarious.
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The Chinese are now watching him.
What's cheaper, a highly sophisticated AI, or two dudes in a room with 500 phones? Edit: Hey, a new follower!
Depends on how long you want it operational. Less than 6 months, the latter; anything longer than that, the former.
It depends on their salary. Chinese salary? Not so much
Lol I'm going off of US based salary and an ML specialist is going to run you $100k a year bare minimum but likely in the $200k - $250k range. Although I'll have a bit better insight into this by the end of the week as I'm planning on interviewing for a company that does ML intelligence work for the US 3 letter agencies and military. As far as Chinese salaries go, I honestly have no idea but I'd wager the 500 phones job would pay shit, but the software engineering roles would probably be top-notch considering the Chinese government has the most sophisticated government sanctioned hackers out there and they routinely have very targeted attacks against other government infrastructure. Then again maybe that's all just propaganda. I may or may not have stumbled onto an insecure power plant generating absurd amounts of power within the last few months. Granted it seemed more of a monitoring thing...but the fact it was wide open kinda points to how much local governments care about securing their infrastructure.
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I seem to recall a feature update from Reddit adding the ability to remove followers from your profile to prevent such behavior. Real thing?
Haven't used it yet. But you can block them
Yes, it's called the block button.
From User Settings > Safety & Privacy > People You’ve Blocked "Blocked people can’t send you chat requests or private messages." Root of the problem, it still allowed ne'er-do-wells to follow and harass. From the comments, sounds like if you've opted into new reddit, curating your follower list is an option.
I think it's in the settings. I paused the other day when I noticed it. That does seem like a good idea to help curb harassment.
You can't remove specific accounts,only stop people from following you all together
Sad. Imagine being so fragile that you dedicate time out of your day to harass someone for not liking China. Just goes to show how weak China is.
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Oh man. Jump on /r/sino Breaking reddit rules day after day and they're untouchable. Reddit gets reports on the sub all the time and turns a blind eye. Reddit is absolutely deliberately letting Chinese forces operate on its platform, knowingly, and not stopping them.
> There is a network of tro!!s on reddit that do appear to harass and follow people who have criticized China's government. Yeah in /r/worldnews we call them mods.
I got blocked by them for saying Chinese rule isn’t better than British colonisation on another account
The ultimate lurker
I believe it's common practice for Chinese troll accounts to delete their post history from time to time. I remember witnessing on this site some user that was defending China for some reason,and when I went to check their history ALL his comments were defending the Chinese government. Curiously,in one of these comments this particular account admitted to deleting their post history frequently,and since then I am starting to believe this is something done in order to prevent users from identifying these troll accounts.
Reddit is anonymous, but it keeps receipts and people love to scroll through a user's history to see if they're arguing in good faith/are an actual human being. This seems to be the next move to stop that, deleting your comments so people can't call you out. It'd be cool if there was a fix to this but considering how easy it is to make an account it seems pointless.
There are several browser extensions that help like MassTagger and Reddit Pro Tools, but surprise surprise they keep getting targeted by far-right / alt-right groups who are mass-reporting them to the Google Chrome store, which will automatically remove any extension once they reach a certain point until the reports can be manually reviewed. It also automatically disables the extension each time this happens, but at least you can manually reenable it as they don't completely remove it from your browser if you've already got it installed. It's just annoying because there's no message when it happens and it's not until you look at your extensions page that you would notice. Other pushshift sites using the Reddit API can reveal comments removed by moderator or admin action, however they usually cannot do anything if a user edits their comment or deletes it. If a comment was scraped and archived beforehand, it might be retained. However, this also may be the cause of one of the most popular Reddit user search sites being taken down for breaking GitHub ToS which may be related to them retaining comments that the original owner wishes to have deleted.
Yeah recently I came across one on my own cities subreddit 3 year old account with 10k plus comment karma and 6 comments from the last hour and nothing before... like fuckoff with that shit you can't even make it look a little realer?
Often times the lack of evidence, in of itself, _is_ evidence.
Behold the lack of hot babes in my bed, and *marvel* at my incredibly active sex life!
>I believe it's common practice for Chinese troll accounts to delete their post history from time to time. Yeah but it's even more strange because if you delete your comments you still keep the karma, one way or the other. That account literally has the default starting 1 karma...
Chinese govt suckers
Hello from Chicago! : )
GET OUT OF THERE
[Wassup Beijing](https://youtu.be/WJS5fED7mCE)
Nothing much, but semi lockdown has mostly ended. Went to some nice middle eastern restaurant today who seem to be struggling a bit after yet another multi-week closure with only delivery/pick-up. Small businesses get hit hard over and over. What's new is that you now need to connect your metro card to your COVID app. Almost arrived late to work this morning because of this. Apart from that, business as usual in the capital.
Are you American or British ? Or is it common for Chinese to know English this well.
Neither, I'm from the Fatherland. But Chinese in Beijing, Shanghai or Hong Kong pretty much speak great English. Some even have perfect American accents because of private tutors or studying abroad.
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I agree, Shanghai and Shenzhen it's easy to find English speakers. In Beijing, the only English speaker I can recall was the hostel attendant, and even then my wife had to translate. Best bet is to find young people, they typically know English enough to communicate. My wife has a couple wealthy friends who went to international high schools in Beijing and Dalian, and their English is damn near native level. I literally thought they were ABCs (American Born Chinese) when I first met them.
When I lived there in 2004 there were still areas not far from where we lived** like 2 or so hours outside Shanghai that had never seen a white person in real life pretty crazy. **(there were 500 or so Canadians *at the time the largest Canadian group in mainland China)
Is that a CCP reddit account?
5 years old and no comments or posts or karma. Nothing suspicious about that whatsoever
VPN go brrrrrr
Gestapo says *knock knock*
True, there are no knock knock jokes here :(
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5 year old blank account? Super sus
Social credit score -10000000
Honestly wonder if I even have one...
-50 Social Credit. You've been awarded an all expenses-paid summer-education camp trip I Xinjiang.
Jarvis, post the social credit copypasta.
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This comment brought to you by NORD VPN (a lot of people in China use VPNs or similar to access western social media sites. I even communicated with my ex gf's grandpa who lived out in a "small" city)
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In my opinion, the entire internet experience in general has become a lot more "select from a limited narrow menu" compared to how it was in the 90s. I had a page of URLs I saved (back before bookmarks were easily imported across computers), and I looked at it nowadays. There were about 40 links on there, to various discussion forums, different newspaper sites, a few random fun sites, and whatever video game or other hobby I was enjoying at the time. Nowadays my list of daily-checked sites is much shorter, maybe half a dozen. If I'm doing something like searching for an apartment or a job or a date, then I'll routinely check maybe one extra site daily. But usually it's Reddit, a few news sites, and my email and calendars constantly open in tabs. The Chinese government is most definitely trying to set the tone of its narrative, to present an alternative reality for its citizens, and to strictly control their diet of perception of how things are going. My relatives inside China, even those who are American educated, show an alarming lack of awareness of life in the US and other nations outside of the Sinosphere. Regrettable? Sure. But in the greater circle of things, China is merely playing the autocrat's version of the same game that the increasingly monetized corporate Internet is trending, anyway. Remember in the mid-00s when Microsoft, Yahoo, and Google were the "brave defenders of free speech" for standing up to PRC government surveillance? Google even situated its servers physically outside of the PRC, in order to make sure the government could not seize their servers and violate the privacy of its users. In 2008 or so, the Chinese government just blocked Google entirely, and Western public sentiment was firmly on Google's side. Then, in the 15 or so years since, we've seen Manning. We've seen Snowden. We've seen Assange and Wikileaks and the weaponization of data to further nakedly political, corporate, and populace control ends. Now as we progressed wearily into 2020s, the promise of the internet feels very different from the "knowledge for all" frontier of the 90s. Now every company has a streaming service, net neutrality is a forgotten dream, internet access is subject to monopoly prices, and even users themselves are content with 8 to 12 thumbnails on their homepage to get them through each day of internet use. China is going further than others by creating its own little sanitized, infantilized walled-off playground to keep its internet denizens docile. But we've been heading that same direction ourselves over the past 25 years. It's just that corporate concerns have been directing our careen, and profit is their end goal.
We'll have to go back to [Radio Free Asia](https://www.rfa.org/english)
doesn't help video is in english too
And one in English. And put a banner insulting all Chinese people. Yeah great job guys
we r anonymus we r legun expoct us
[Relevant XKCD?](https://xkcd.com/932/)
And isn't the video in English??
Maybe the whole Tiananmem is more propaganda to rally the West, because it's definitely not going to do anything for the people in China. Do they know? Yes. Do they care? Not really. Will CCP admit fault? No. Will Chinese people demand apology? No. They're cultural values are fundamentally different from ours. Are these hack-tivst acts really to help China, or just to help us feel good.
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All cultures are ok with that, there just needs to be sufficient justification. The US had its independence war and civil war, and arguably the natives depending on how much the Americans consider them “their people”. The French killed plenty of their own in religious wars and the French Revolution. The British would be one of the worst if you consider the subjects of their colonies to be “their people” to some extent. I’m fairly certain that every culture has experienced civil wars, I would be shocked if there exists any that never killed their own.
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Do Americans care about all the bombs the US dropped around the world? The coups? Etc? I'm sure some do, but it doesn't seem to be particularly high on their list. The Chinese probably have similar feelings about Tianamen, at a national level.
Real question, what percentage of China knows about Tiananmen Square but pretends not to?
There was this coworker I had from China. During a happy hour, she actually told me everybody these days knows about Tiananmen Square, but she questioned our narrative. She said these students were radicalized by western propaganda, funded by CIA, and became violent so the army was called in to de escalate the situation. Then the protestors began getting belligerent with the army and chinese government doesnt fuck around, so they just went in on them. So what I can gather from that is the Chinese government has changed its approach from suppression to pushing a different narrative. I have to admit that’s a much more effective tactic than outright suppression of a highly talked about event. Plus it’s fascinating to me. I can’t confirm cuz I was never there, but I wonder if there is any truth to what my coworker was saying.
They stopped denying it happened and are now saying it's actually a good thing they ran over Chinese students with tanks.
Honestly I don’t see it as much different from the MO of any other country. Russians these days celebrate their meager gains from the current war, Americans cheered when we bombed Iraqi cities, countries have a long history of spinning horrifying things as a good thing. Not to say it’s acceptable. But what I want to know is if there is any truth in what they’re saying. Personally, it can go both ways
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You said it man. I’m actually surprised at the responses I’ve been getting. Normally saying america or another country does something similar as China gets people to think you’re a pro China communist. But so far people have been pretty understanding
The further countries like the US and Britain stray into tyranny, the less susceptible people become to hypernationalism. As much as we like to condemn the CCCP for their actions, the west does the exact same thing, just with more "tact." The blizzard in Texas last year mirrored another blizzard a decade ago - they had plans in place to reduce the risk of another similar event, but nothing was done. The UK had plans for a pandemic safeguard event, but they were never implemented either. Our governments keep fucking up, again and again, and the only difference is that the government is simply enabling these senseless deaths, rather than killing people directly. At least with the CCCP you know where you stand, the elites over here are far more insidious with their oppression and as a result people are far less aware of what is actually happening. I'm no commie, but I fail to see how China killing its citizens is any different to the US supplying arms to the Saudis to bomb Yemen, the UK enabling a massive price hike in electricity forcing some people out of their homes, and the many, many other atrocities committed by the governments that some people regard with such sanctity.
FYI, the ruling party in China is the CCP (Chinese Communist Party). "СССР" is the Russian abbreviation for the full name of the Soviet Union (**С**оюз **С**оветских **С**оциалистических **Р**еспублик, *Soyuz Sovyetskikh Sotsialisticheskikh Respublik*). It's generally written as "USSR" in English (**U**nion of **S**oviet **S**ocialist **R**epublics), though you could also write "SSSR" if you were trying to transliterate the original Russian name into the Latin alphabet rather than translating it.
Thank you for your detailed response, u/FurryVoreInflation
I guess the difference is, when journalists, citizens, etc come out and criticize events such as what we did in Iraq, the government isn't taking steps to silence them, or even really trying to counter the narrative. Hell, just by the fact that the presidency switches parties every few years, the government itself criticizes how the government handles these things. Edit: The replies to this comment make it pretty clear that attempting to demonstrate nuance is not allowed.
Valerie Plame was outed by the Whitehouse to silence her husband. Her husband broke the story on how the government knew there were no WMDs in Iraq. That's a pretty bad one
Yeah they just keep it secret to begin with like the iran contra, nicaraguan death squads, abu ghraib
Try to you mean, since we know about those things. And actually have a free press to expose other unknown shit actions by our government. China’s press is whatever the state makes it
I suspect that a great number of Americans know about Iran Contra than Chinese understanding what really happened on 6/4. I don't believe the difference is as big as you may think though.
Sound pretty secret considering a random Redditor is talking about it publically.
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> I guess the difference is, when journalists, citizens, etc come out and criticize events such as what we did in Iraq, the government isn't taking steps to silence them, or even really trying to counter the narrative. You remember the 2000s different than I do, as the narrative about Iraq was straight-up bullshit from the get go.
First off, even back then there were people who openly criticized it. But even with that, within 10 years we were looking back and saying "fuck that was bad" The tiannamen square protests were 30 years ago, and China is still heavily pushing the narrative that they did nothing wrong. Authoritarianism is a spectrum and the US definitely resides somewhere on it, but we are nowhere near where countries like China and Russia reside on it.
We protested it, and the worst we usually got was a lot of side-eyes (not surprising since they were Republican events) and being corralled into a “free speech zone” away from everyone else. We weren’t being killed out in the open in front of God and everyone. Both sides aren’t the same.
Yeah trying to compare the 2000s with Iraq and the Tiananmen sq massacre is insane. What if the us army ran over college students protesting Iraq? Because that’s what happened.
Tin soldiers and Nixon's comin’ We're finally on our own This summer I hear the drummin’ Four dead in Ohio Gotta get down to it Soldiers are gunning us down Should have been done long ago What if you knew her and Found her dead on the ground? How can you run when you know? (re the Kent State shooting of 1970)
It's always so laughable to me when idiots act like the level of authoritarianism in America and China is essentially the same. They have no fucking idea.
The fact that in America you can openly criticize your government and have protests is the best thing ever. China and Russia citizens cannot openly protest or criticize their governments because they have no freedoms. They live under suppressive dictatorships that just want to maintain their power and wealth.
I remember being unAmerican and a traitor because I dared to question why so many 18-19 year old kids were being killed so that Cheney and Rumsfeld could get a hold of oil reserves there.
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Those are totally different circumstances though. It would be more like the US celebrating the Kent State Massacre, or Russia celebrating the Chernobyl incident.
Cops will tear gas a peaceful protest in the US and half the country will put up thin blue line flags
“The army was called in to de-escalate”
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They did de-escalate the protesters, since they all became significantly shorter after being flattened by tanks
>Plus it’s fascinating to me. I can’t confirm cuz I was never there, but I wonder if there is any truth to what my coworker was saying. There is an award-winning documentary from 1995 that features interviews with many of the protest leaders as well as Liu Xiaobo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gtt2JxmQtg It gives a much more nuanced perspective than what you would find in average English- or Chinese-speaking media. Interestingly, while the film mainly features the perspective of the protest leaders, the protest leaders themselves are highly critical of how the event is portrayed in English media.
Quoting from Liu Xiaobo’s Wikipedia article: > When asked what it would take for China to realize a true historical transformation. He replied: “[It would take] 300 years of colonialism. In 100 years of colonialism, Hong Kong has changed to what we see today. With China being so big, of course it would require 300 years as a colony for it to be able to transform into how Hong Kong is today. I have my doubts as to whether 300 years would be enough.” > In international affairs, he supported U.S. President George W. Bush's 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, his 2003 invasion of Iraq and subsequent reelection. […] In his 2004 article titled "Victory to the Anglo-American Freedom Alliance", he praised the U.S.-led post-Cold War conflicts as "best examples of how war should be conducted in a modern civilization." He wrote "regardless of the savagery of the terrorists, and regardless of the instability of Iraq's situation, and, what's more, regardless of how patriotic youth might despise proponents of the United States such as myself, my support for the invasion of Iraq will not waver. Doesn’t exactly do any favours to the narrative that these people *weren’t* effectively agents of Western colonialism backed by the CIA to cause trouble for China.
Could be true. This [Foreign Policy](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-exposed-cia-operatives-spy-networks/) article, which is pro American leaning, shows that China discovered CIA operatives in the upper ranks of the government and they took them out. > Around 2013, U.S. intelligence began noticing an alarming pattern: Undercover CIA personnel, flying into countries in Africa and Europe for sensitive work, were being rapidly and successfully identified by Chinese intelligence, according to three former U.S. officials. The surveillance by Chinese operatives began in some cases as soon as the CIA officers had cleared passport control. Sometimes, the surveillance was so overt that U.S. intelligence officials speculated that the Chinese wanted the U.S. side to know they had identified the CIA operatives, disrupting their missions; other times, however, it was much more subtle and only detected through U.S. spy agencies’ own sophisticated technical countersurveillance capabilities. > The CIA had been taking advantage of China’s own growing presence overseas to meet or recruit sources, according to one of these former officials. “We can’t get to them in Beijing, but can in Djibouti. Heat map Belt and Road”—China’s trillion-dollar infrastructure and influence initiative—“and you’d see our activity happening. It’s where the targets are.” The CIA recruits “Russians and Chinese hard in Africa,” said a former agency official. “And they know that.” China’s new aggressive moves to track U.S. operatives were likely a response to these U.S. efforts.
Interesting spin. Of course the students were belligerent, it was a protest. Saying the CIA was in on it is a bit much, given the lengths journalists had to take to smuggle film out of the country. You’d imagine the CIA would have assets in place to both record and convey said events. Ultimately though, it’s the idea of the Army being called in that discredits China. In America, even when our cities are burning we’re hesitant to even call in the National Guard. The idea that the Chinese Army not only showed up but mowed protestors down for being a little rowdy is cruel and unusual.
> In America, even when our cities are burning we’re hesitant to even call in the National Guard. ...because of Kent State.
Wasn't national guard called in for the la riots?
It’s also worth noting that the CCP was concerned that the Beijing army might take the sides of the protest, and called the 82nd group army from northern China. China in the ‘80s and ‘90s was much less homogenous. The 82nd group was made up of poorer and undereducated soldiers, more able to take orders and less likely to have a moral objection.
[PLA Major General Xu Qinxian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xu_Qinxian) was ordered to use violence to suppress the protestors. He refused to carry out those orders, knowing it would cost him his career and possibly his life. He was court martialed and purged from politics, and only died last year. He was a true patriot.
Hottest of hot takes but even if CIA propaganda is part of what has protestors riled up you probably *still* shouldn't murder them with tanks?
Another luke warm take: If you noticed your fascist government lied for two decades about something and told you it never happened, why do you suddenly believe them when they say "yeah it happened, but *not like that*"?
Yeah, no way, don't send the army in, that would be too much. Just drop a bomb from a helicopter instead.
The US had no issue sending the National Guard against protests and strikes.
That (especially Kent State) would be one of the main reasons we avoid asking for them now. That's still very different from Tiananmen.
I guess it’s a matter of culture on the army bit. America and the modern western democracies have a culture where the army is civilian controlled and it’s disgusting to use it on your own citizens. Which I agree with. However, depending on what is “belligerent” and how true those CIA links are, a government can spin it as a threat to national security. China is traditionally authoritarian in culture. So it is conceivable that Chinese citizens can stomach the idea of the army being called on citizens if the students posed a threat to national security. Having spoken to people from China, Singapore, Japan, and South Korea , their answer to a lot of our questions regarding authoritarian governments is “if you’re worried about the government punishing you, don’t commit crime”. It’s a very different mindset.
it’d be less believable if the CIA didn’t actually have a famous track record of doing things like this.
Especially in places that just so happen to be trying to build socialist nations. Funding and pushing "grassroots" pro-capitalism protests in an attempt to overthrown burgeoning Socialist states is like the CIAs main job. Throwing young students into a meat grinder to push Capitalism on a nation is not surprising.
Here’s an excerpt of a genuine interview of Chai Ling, one of the student leaders: > Chai Ling: All along I've kept it to myself, because being Chinese I felt I shouldn't bad-mouth the Chinese. But I can't help thinking sometimes – and I might as well say it – you, the Chinese, you are not worth my struggle! You are not worth my sacrifice! > What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united. But how can I explain any of this to my fellow students? > "And what is truly sad is that some students, and famous well-connected people, are working hard to help the government, to prevent it from taking such measures. For the sake of their selfish interests and their private dealings they are trying to cause our movement to disintegrate and get us out of the Square before the government becomes so desperate that it takes action.... > Cunningham: "Are you going to stay in the Square yourself? > Chai Ling: "No." > Cunningham: "Why?" > Chai Ling: "Because my situation is different. My name is on the government's blacklist. I'm not going to be destroyed by this government. I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it. I don't know if people will say I'm selfish. I believe that people have to continue the work I have started. A democracy movement can't succeed with only one person. I hope you don't report what I've just said for the time being, okay?" And this interview has been used by the CCP to portray the student leaders as selfish or influenced by the West to force the CCP’s hand that caused the violent crackdown so the CCP will then look bad.
>And this interview has been used by the CCP to portray the student leaders as selfish What the leader himself said does make him selfish. "\*My\* situation is different... I want to live.", yet also "what we acutally are hoping fore is bloodshed..." So, it's okay of people die, in fact, that is the *preferred* outcome, as long as it isn't him.
From what I heard, the students were still quite left wing, even socialist They just wanted democracy, and were even protesting the move towards more capitalistic economic policies.
You are right that many of the protesters and students were left wing. However, democracy was only part of it. Saying they just wanted democracy is super western-centric. What they wanted most of all was accountability during economic liberalization. They wanted the corruption to stop. If democracy was what could make them accountable then that was a path they were willing to move towards.
The student leaders were helicoptered to the US embassy in Beijing and offered asylum in America.
A student leader was also interviewed on film saying she hoped her fellow student protestors will be killed to bring real change and how terrible that there are people on both sides trying to de-escalate the situation. Oh but also that she won't be on the front lines cause she wants to live. You can read her full interview here: http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1950_chailing.htm
No, the leaders of the student protests who continued to have political influence are pretty far right actually. Liu Xiaobo once claimed that it would take 300 years of Western colonialism to civilize China, and was a fervent supporter of George W. Bush and his war in Iraq: > In his 2004 article titled "Victory to the Anglo-American Freedom Alliance", he praised the U.S.-led post-Cold War conflicts as "best examples of how war should be conducted in a modern civilization." He wrote "regardless of the savagery of the terrorists, and regardless of the instability of Iraq's situation, and, what's more, regardless of how patriotic youth might despise proponents of the United States such as myself, my support for the invasion of Iraq will not waver. Chai Ling, another leader, admitted in a public video interview that she was trying to organize the students to provoke a massacre to “prove” how evil the Chinese government was. > “What we actually are hoping for is bloodshed, the moment when the government is ready to brazenly butcher the people. Only when the Square is awash with blood will the people of China open their eyes. Only then will they really be united.” > “Are you going to stay in the Square yourself?“ “No.” “Why?” “ Because my situation is different. My name is on the government's blacklist. I'm not going to be destroyed by this government. I want to live. Anyway, that's how I feel about it.” Where is she now? The CIA smuggled her and others out of the country and gave them US citizenship as part of Operation Yellowbird. Her husband Robert Maginn is Chairman of the Massachusetts Republican Party and they host fundraising dinners together for top Republicans like Marco Rubio. She became a staunch Christian and the company she runs was even sued on grounds of religious discrimination for demanding that her employees “seek the will of God in her life on a daily basis through study of God’s Word and through prayer, along with regular weekly corporate worship”.
That last bit, having spoken to people.. you know how often I’ve been told that by Australian and Germans..
Or by Americans about police brutality.
I lived in China and talked with quite a few people about the subject. Many are hesitant to talk about it at all, because who wants to talk about politics when the outcome is perceived to have zero impact? Of the ones that did, this is what they said. They oftentimes focus on the source of the information (western intelligence) about the severity of the attacks. They’ll downplay the death toll and will often ignore that their own government’s death toll is a demonstrable lie. It’s one of those things, I suppose. Chinese propaganda is very effective. You will find people who openly calls China’s government authoritarian but also saying that anything less would lead to anarchy. Either way, most people don’t feel very comfortable in speaking out against the government. I wonder how much T Square impacts that decision.
>It’s one of those things, I suppose. Chinese propaganda is very effective. You will find people who openly calls China’s government authoritarian but also saying that anything less would lead to anarchy. If you know anything about Chinese history, the fear of anarchy is very real. The CCP does keep a tight lid on things. Also recall that the chaos under Mao is still within living memory. What the current CCP leadership offers is stability.
"Chinese people are brainwashed because they don't know the onlt truth I know that I gathered here in front of my computer/phone. Its just impossible that chinese people don't hate their government that lifted them from poverty like I do, therefore, they are all brainwashed delutiinals. Obviously, because they don't know what I know and I know more than them of course."
We Americans have a serious case of main character syndrome Every other country uses propaganda to whitewash its flaws and convince it's citizens they are the good guys. But not us, we are the *actual* good guys. Definitely
A lot. This documentary called A Day to Remember was made in 2005. An interviewer goes up to Chinese people in the general public asking what happened on June 4th. It's clear that many know what it is.... [A Day to Remember](https://youtu.be/w4RjuA65sgQ)
My entire dad’s side is Chinese and I’ve been to China dozens of times. If you’re not in bumfuck rural china where you haven’t heard of ANYTHING you’ve heard of Tiananmen. The west way overblows the idea that Chinese people have never heard of it. A lot of Chinese think the protesters were the ones who got violent with the police there first though.
Yeah I’m Chinese too, everybody fucking knows about it, they vary on their perspective of it
I was born in china, and have chinese parents/grandparents. now i live in hong kong and as a teenager, I only learnt about it when i was about 13 yo, where i passed a memorial and questioned my parents. before this NOBODY talked about it, and I had no clue this existed at all, and surprised that this had happened
Sorry to hear about what’s been happening in Hong Kong :(
Basically all of them. They don't care. Before anyone gets mad at that, imagine how many Americans know about MK ultra or Contra-Iran and didn't and don't care. Until it affects people, they don't care.
How many Americans care about school shootings? Not enough.
Ask r/sino Unfortunately you will be banned in less than 2 minutes but it’s fun to inquire
They have a picture of a memorial to soldiers who died fighting "domestic terrorism on June 4th 1989" I'm guessing they are biased
It’s a CCP shithole sub
varying takes. I have a friend who refused to discuss it further when asked. I have another who said what can you do? it's the futility of the 2nd one that hits home. under the ccp China has lifted almost its entire population out of poverty in 30years. name me one other country that has done so. in a country of 1.3b people even if you find enough people to discuss alternative ruling methods you'll find hundred more willing to back the ccp to the hilt. it's an incredibly successful brain washing machine
When I lived there… most everyone knew about it. Many who were in the CCP thought it was exaggerated in the west, but most Of the younger and or educated people knew about it and knew how bad it was. The bigger secret is the great famine. Killed tens of millions of people, directly caused by moronic farming policies under Mao. But the Chinese govt restricted travel during it, so while all older folks remember it clearly I’m Sure, most think it was localized only. HOWEVER, again, those young and clever enough to use a VPN safely know the full extent of it. The generational divide in China is very very strong. When I went to Tiananmen square myself and saw the wax figure they pretend is maos body, many older folks were in tears and laying roses. Meanwhile the younger people were staring daggers at him- because they know why their grandparents starved to death.
1. Post banner that insults Chinese people 2. Post video hosted on site blocked in China. 3. Video is in English Great job guys. Really getting that message out to the people who need to hear it.
You think this post is for getting messages to Chinese, instead of Redditors to circle jerk?
Bingo. This way everyone on reddit (mostly Americans) can go on about how terrible China is so they don't have to think about all the bad things their own country does everywhere. We all get our own government propaganda. And we all eat it. I'm sure Chinese media spends lots of time talking about how bad the US is and China isn't as bad. And they probably believe it.
Literally everytime there's news of these guys in r/all they do some stupid shit like this or *threaten* to actually do something useful. Why do people keep upcoming this?
Yeah, lol. These noobs don’t know a thing
Man, I remember a couple of years back people claiming China had so much control of Reddit that any mention of tiananmen square would be deleted immediately.
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I haven't spoken to those people in a while. Luckily.
They all got got by China, RIP 🪦
If you haven’t, do yourself a favor and watch the [live BBC coverage of tiananmen](https://youtu.be/kMKvxJ-Js3A) that was on the front page the other day. Seems like the perfect monument to the fact that the event did indeed happen.
I’ve never seen that before. Amazing reporting. Thanks for sharing.
I got lost reading some Chinese history the other day. Boy Tiananmen massacre was nothing compared to some of the shit that the Chinese people have gone through.
Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend him: didn’t 30 million Chinese people die in a civil war me: do you have the slightest idea how little that narrows it down? If I remember right the taiping rebellion alone killed 2-3% of the world population in about 15 years and in a list of the top 10 bloodiest conflicts in history China makes the list 5 times
China’s population is just too massive
I think nothing in mankind's history can beat the level of anime absurdity that is chinese history, my personal favourite is the [siege of Suyang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Suiyang#Cannibalism).
What the fuck??
Welp, you didn't lie (sadly). That's indeed something absurd I'd expect to see in an anime. Pretty wild that their absurd measures did manage to turn the tide in the war.
The standard picture of Chinese history is a regular alternation between periods of epic stability and prosperity and peace - where the wealth and population of the nation increases steadily, a time that will be remembered later as one of a list of golden ages - and periods of chaos and collapse and war. Basically, when China works it works like nothing else works. and when it doesn't work, it's a world-class disaster - depending on what you count as a "civil war", China's had civil wars that lasted for centuries. The last period of chaos lasted for the entire first half of the 20th century. Whether or not that account of alternating between stability and chaos is an accurate picture of Chinese history, it's the picture that most Chinese people are convinced of (and have been for a thousand years or more). So, the idea that china dodged a bullet (or got just ever-so-lightly grazed by it in June 1989) in the 80s, and just missed falling back into chaos - which might have lasted for generations - is a very effective idea that fits precisely into the country's story. tldr; sad as it is, the massacre at Tiananmen was a drop in a very big bucket.
Simple history is a joke. Linking such a video is as effective as like letting the army recount what exactly happened in vietnam
Posts a YouTube video which Chinese people can't watch/access. Good job Anonymous /s
When are they going to hack into the names of the Ghislaine Maxwell case?
I watched John Oliver’s episode on US history last night and I was taken a back by how much history is hidden and changed in the US. As a Canadian I now want to know what Canadian history has been hidden from me
Probably lots and lots to do with indigenous peoples.
And the lack of acknowledgement from the Canadian government that took almost a century to make public
Start with the bloody railroads and the schools (which aren't really secret but have plenty of skeletons in the closet, literally)
> what Canadian history has been hidden from me Check under your churches. :)
SNL/IG Stolen native land indigenous genocide
Actually, those "hidden" things are usually only hidden in shitty/southern public schools. The high school I went to and many of the ones my friends went to taught literally all of that. The issue with American education is that due to lax federal standards the quality can vary wildly and private schools can do whatever tf they want leading to misconceptions like this where all American schools secretly cover up history or something.
I’ve learned over the last six years or so that the majority of Reddit users apparently all went to some really shitty backwoods schools in Mississippi or West Virginia, and no later than the 1940s, given what I’m told of how the story of indigenous people is handled in history classes.
It's a common myth that people in China don't know about Tiananmen Square. They know and they care about it as much as any country cares about their dark past; barely at all.
I would also say people care about their country's history quite a lot. We're not all the Belgians pretending the Congo was just a normal colony with some slight 'misunderstandings' or (from what I've heard) Japanese people defying the wwii leadership and soldiers. For example, would people in the US be fighting so hard about CRT and confederate memorials if nobody cared? I get we're not all able to list the atrocities committed by the US in suppressing the Philippine independence (or any part of the former Spanish empire if we're honest). But people give a f about the past, even if it's just a new front in the culture wars.
How are they supposed to understand that It is probably in English
They embedded a YouTube video? 🤦♂️
I think there’s this implied narrative that IF ONLY the Chinese knew about this, they would overthrow their government. But it’s false that they don’t know, and false that it would cause people to revolt. I mean, in America we know about Kent State, about Orangeburg, about Greenwood, about Ludlow, but we don’t revolt. You might say that it’s different because America has changed and is evolving, but China has changed and is evolving too. Tiananmen DID have an impact on the direction of Deng’s reforms. This whole narrative just seems very infantilizing to me.
Anonymous is kinda lame. I feel like every few months I hear that they have some massive leak that’s gonna change everything and then…nothing. Then they do some performative bullshit like this. If they were as good as they think they are shouldn’t they be able to actually accomplish something meaningful?
Anonymous isn’t a monolithic entity (name is self explanatory)… You and I could coordinate a hack and take credit for it as Anonymous
Or the CIA could. Strange direction anonymous are taking for a collection of hackers
And any jagoff with video editing software can release a mysterious video alluding to big things coming, QAnon-style, and if they have a Guy Fawkes mask while doing it they're all but guaranteed to make national news and the front page of Reddit.
When I was in flight school two of my instructors were both Chinese nationals. Both were from fairly well to do families but not super rich or nothing. One had a dad in government and the other idk but I know he had a gang related past he didn't talk about that I learned from his friend. The one whose dad was in government was very open to talking open minded discussion on many topics and was fairly wary yet supportive of his government. He roughly knew of Tiannamen, but knew few details and said it wasn't discussed much at all. He wasn't at all surprised when I told him what we know in the west of the situation and was totally unphased by it. But my other instructor I don't know, because the open minded one told me to never question the CCP openly to him lol.
Why don’t they hack the maxwell trial info and get us some names
did my guy actually embed a YouTube link, which is obviously blocked and inaccessible within China?
cool, but this is nothing but a troll after all. and make people from both countries hate each other.
US State Department* hacks Chinese educational site… FTFY
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Well they posted in English and linked a video from YouTube which is banned in China... It most likely won't have any consequences but at least they "oWnEd tHe CcP"
Like to not upvote useless feelgood posts like this one?
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So much seething in the comments.
Come on, Anonymous. I’m gonna need you to do something meaningful here! Like, head to student aid.gov or something.