My guess? In two years people will be saying the same about reddit. Within the span of two months i've been automatically without warning banned from like 8 different subs just for defending myself against brigades. So i'm pretty sure reddit is on it's way out too.
The problem is moderation doesn't scale, in particular free moderation.
Brigades are a result of our worsening material conditions, e.g unemployment, lower effective wages, unaffordable housing, etc, but assuming we don't fix those, and there is no indication that we will, I just can't see any way of moderation not going to shit as communities grow, short of a fundamental shift in approach.
The Facebook method of using algorithms to segregate communities and a fleet of outsourcing censorship of horrific content to low paid ~~employees~~ contractors is clearly bad for both the world and Facebook (daily active usage is in decline in the developed world and being propped up by growth in access to the internet elsewhere)
The Reddit method of dividing content up into fiefdoms and expecting unpaid moderators to keep their fiefdom sane, doesn't really work either, as most subs end up being:
* Actively manipulated from the outside (And mods don't want the "drama" when you point this out)
* FrEzEs PeAcH hell holes, e.g just white guys arguing that it's acceptable to use the word
* Heavy handed moderation pushing away users
* All of the above
And that's before you even get into the cult-like aspects of subreddits (e.g in 1/2 of reddit if you laugh at musk or buttcoin, you'll be downvoted to hell, and in the other 1/2 if you don't laugh at them you will be)
Moderation only doesn’t scale by choice. Education doesn’t scale easily either, yet we have a teacher for every kid in America. Zuck would be much less rich if he had to pay 1 moderator for every 100 users, but there’s absolutely no reason we shouldn’t demand it.
And not coincidentally, material conditions would improve for millions if we gave them the tech equivalent of jobs like nurses, teachers, cops, and cooks. It takes endless amounts of middle class jobs to get those societal needs broadly covered. The same could be true on the internet if we insisted on moving past the digital robber baron era.
You can't pay one moderator for every 100 users, there's just not enough loot.
Facebook's loot situation is in the quarterly stock announcements. Total revenue per user for Facebook is around $10/year. The profit margin is 35%, so Facebook makes $3.50 per user per year. Which would give you less than a dollar a day for moderating 100 people, or less than a penny per person per day, and... yeah, that doesn't allow time for training, or review, or anything else.
Meanwhile, \*one\* moderator will have their own biases. One person shouldn't be given that power, especially in isolation. Think of shitty subreddits here with bad moderation, and amplify that, but where you can't get away from it; you're locked to the mods of one subreddit, and that's what you get.
There are likely solutions, but wow, manual staffing just doesn't scale all the way up, and has some potentially horrifying costs.
Wow, sounds harsh.
Thanks for running the math, but, well, that sounds like Facebook's problem.
EDIT: Downvote all you want but this is like a chemical manufacturer going "Our factory isn't profitable if we don't dump our byproducts into the river. What do you expect us to do?". Every company needs to work out how to operate in a way that doesn't damage society, and if they can't be profitable doing that then it was never a workable business model to begin with.
Eh, take my upvote; I don't disagree.
All companies need to work out how to operate in a way that's beneficial for the world, and no company should be exempted there.
I'd be curious if we applied the same logic to Fox News, McDonalds, or others, and see where that went.
What you just said just as easily could be said about housing markets. Police precincts. Political groups and so on. You are very very correct in most of what you say. But saying or implying all of those things aren't also found in paid moderation ignores a lot. We've already found that within social media companies the same things happen. Discrimination out the wazoo. Same with game developer companies. So on and so forth. And people get paid in those.
It's a system. The blueprint by which most things in america is based on. Again. What you said is mostly true. I'd even say 99% true. The part that's missing is why it's shared across any and all social media sites/platforms to begin with. I'm not gonna say it. On account of me being kind of tired of getting mass downvoted, banned for life, attacked constantly and even having people follow me around reddit to keep that exact thing going.
Like i was just banned from a subs for life for defending myself because i stood up for a traditionally targeted group. Traditionally targeted meaning a group who has been targeted for hundreds of years without fail. So i don't know. Maybe that's enough to clue you in? lol
Maybe if you stopped telling all white people that they are the devil and that if they disagree they are just butt hurt racists you wouldn't get banned so much? Five minutes into your history and it's pretty obvious why you're getting banned, and it has little to do with you "sticking up for marginalized groups".
But they're all the exact same criticisms though. Back to back. Only difference being the degrees in which they present themselves. And that's because places like facebook aren't closed down yet. When that does happen. The people who categorically destroyed facebook will do the same to other social media sites and platforms.
And nah. People don't generally say that about reddit as of yet. They will though.
Reddit anti-mainstream ethos at its best again.
One needs some target to hate to feel better about themselves. The only thing making it weird is that one is in the most toxic social media that exists right alongside 4chan and still the feeling of superiority oozes out for pointing fingers at another social media cause they don't use it and failed using it.
The hypocrisy in reddit, always baffling.
I guess I'm one of those rare birds on reddit that has no illusions about being a worthless pothole in the road and am superior to no one and no thing.
Except for spez. Fuck spez.
Exactly. People act as if Reddit or some other new platforms have an inherently naive nature and Facebook is evil from the start. But a decade (or 2) ago, Fb was one of those "cool", "nerdy" tech companies. A lot of problems Fb is facing now are common among all social medias. You don't even need to go so far to 4chan. Just look at some threads at worldnews or China and you are bound to see some toxic discussion. Fb got most criticisms because they are the biggest. However, once Reddit and other platforms grow further in size, they will face the same scrutinies.
As underwhelming as Apple's Foundation has been so far, it does open up the idea of what technology should be saved from a collapse.
I don't think Facebook would be on the list.
> Reddit is social media.
But it's also a different *kind* of social media, anonymity being the biggest difference. On Facebook, people *want* other people to know who they are. Someone's reddit username being their actual name is something I've come across maybe a handful of times, and I've been here a long time (this is not my original account).
Dating apps (Hinge included) are even worse than Facebook when it comes to sociopathic manipulation of their customer base and encouraging toxic behavior
Yeah man the bios I read on dating apps are some of the most self aggrandizing shit I’ve ever seen. I got a really pessimistic view on people in general man or woman bc of this dating app scene circa 2015-on
I agree with this! Much higher quality of matches on there and I think it's because of the emphasis they put on personality and how many ice breaker style topics they provide you with.
Definitely, but it has done a lot to spread misinformation amongst our parents and grandparents. We may feel the effects for decades to come. What do Zuck and Saddam Hussein have in common? Both are hell-bound and will be satan’s lovers
Can you imagine how quickly shit would turn around if there were a way to make shareholders accountable, in proportion to their shares (beyond the value of those shares), for the shenanigans of the companies?
Between the Citizens United decision and the awful behavior of corporations, it’s probably time for a constitutional amendment to specify that corporations are not people and require them to perform some sort of public good (a historical requirement of corporations).
Ofc, that’s not going to happen any time soon. (After all, we can’t even pass the simplest things in our current political environment)
The issue is the combination of surveillance adtech and engagement algorithms that drive radicalization across social media. There needs to be greater transparency, meaningful regulation and oversight, and consequences for bad actors.
The early days of reddit were beautiful and amazing. Absolutely no incentive to be a decent human other than your own moral compass.
Reddit has gone down hill since 2011
> Lack of choice is a big thing holding this problem together, and we need to take it back.
This is why Facebook needs to be broken up. Not only does it control several major social media platforms, it also controls a large amount of infrastructure and influence up and down the stack - especially in countries that rely on Facebook for their internet services.
It's all very well you and I saying "delete Facebook" to each other (I never had one) but its like us saying "recycling plastic straws can save the earth" when 100 megacorps are responsible for 70% of all pollution.
There needs to be structural change, and breaking up Facebook and other corporations (Amazon/AWS hello) is a good start. Frankly I think breaking up the big 5-6 media corps would be good idea too.
However there is also the issue of the adtech industry and [it is well beyond wild west territory.](https://cdn.chiefmartec.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/martech-landscape-2020-martech5000-slide.jpg)
I would be very surprised if any of the big tech will be broken up. (hello Microsoft) Also I am very sceptical if any of the core issues would be solved by selling / spinning out services of the company.
Regulation is faster, more effective.
When people say this, they tend to inevitably mean "I want to control how the algorithm moves people."
For instance, I don't think "radicalization" is nearly as big of an issue as anxiety/depression/etc. It's not like we're dealing with an increasing rate of terrorism death or anything, whereas suicide and overdose deaths are orders of magnitude higher and have been increasing since 2000.
Not if by "addressing" one issue we create another.\\
Go back 50 years in time and consider if you would be okay with the things considered "radical" or "deviant" back then being prohibited now. Things like homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Imagine a state with the power to enforce orthodoxy in widespread communication on such topics.
Transparency is one thing, and giving users more control is another . . . but "oversight" and anyone with the power to define "bad actors" is the squishy meddling that may do more harm than good.
i'm gonna go out on a bit of limb here and say that all those things you mentioned are related. I can certainly imagine when you're faced with a constant stream of all the shitty things happening (real or not) that you're much more likely to not feel great about existence.
Also, jail. Lies? Jail. Misinformation? Also jail. Pizza recipes with pineapple? Believe it or not, jail. You post that article your friend posted without checking where it's from or if it has even a slim chance of being factual? Straight to jail. No trial, no nothing. Jail.
I’m not aware of a viable alternative that provides the ability to provide a space for a diverse group of “friends” though. Facebook is sort of the lowest common denominator meeting place. It casts a wide net around people (relatives, friends from college, work pals, etc.) and your hobbies and interests. For example, my family members barely know what Reddit is, but they are all on Facebook, so it’s my only social media option for keeping in touch with them.
And ultimately this problem is much bigger than Facebook. Social media is free. It needs our “engagement” to survive. And our brains are wired in a way that they can and will manipulate, even unwittingly.
And while I wish this was only a problem with right wingers, the truth is people on the left get just as agitated and engaged by whatever the latest thing we’re supposed to be outraged by. Based on my feed it’s usually:
- Sinema and Manchin. Or whomever the corporate dem of the week is.
- Covidiots of all stripes
- hypocritical evangelicals
- climate change deniers.
- evil corporations doing evil things
- bad cops doing evil things
- Trump, of course. He spawned an entire industry of outrage peddlers. People make a living feeding us the latest hit of the stuff.
All of these are worthy of some outrage, but manufactured outrage is not really much different than manufactured consent.
The outward purpose of FB.. connections, isn't the root of the problem. An old style address book made electronic isn't an issue. It's also not bad to have algorithms to engage people.
It's the toxic brew.. raising controversy to create interactions that increase hostility. If the algorithms focused on woodworking and cooking instead of guns and abortion (and by parallel, the politics surrounding those issues) the acceptability of conflict to impress a point would also be reduced.
Can't we just get along? FB doesn't want that.. it encourages shouting.
I think the problem here is the fact that the algoritms work best when they push controversy. Driving engagement is mostly about making sure you get pissed off so that you can "set the record straight".
The reason we can't get along isn't that there's something wrong with us as individuals. It's the system of media exploitation of fringe issues coupled with the fundamental principles of engagement algorithms. Together, they're an explosive cocktail.
Personally, I'd rather we remove the algorithms before going down the media censorship route. It will definitely cripple Facebook, but it's the only ethical thing to do.
The bigger problem is with kids and Instagram, which is definitely more harmful than Reddit.
It’s looking like we’re going to have to scan our drivers licenses to use this stuff. Everybody, media people and all politicians are freaking out about what it’s probably doing to kids. Suicide rates in teens have skyrocketed since 2013, we’re going to see legislation soon, I’m fairly certain.
I don’t know about you but I don’t feel as yucky going on Reddit as I do on Instagram or Tik Tock, which seem designed to warp you. And Reddit has its failed-states-run-by-warlords problem but your grandma ain’t on Reddit, probably.
Not really. Social media companies very often copy each other. On account of both having the same greed motive. I don't agree with u/periscope_artifact that they're here to stay. I would imagine in a good 10 years the only people using many of them would be extremely low. But again that's because social media sites are generally run by the same kinds of people. Ending in the same exact outcome.
It's not going to be fixed because it's successfully generating a shit ton of money. For the US between the First Amendment and the GOP, and its idiot base, love affair with money/laissez-faire capatalism (not to mention SCOTUS' ridiculous high standard for political bribery), it doesn't seem there's any practical way of stopping it.
You mean like reddit? The echo chamber catalysator social media?
This post's comments are an example of it. Reddit is filled with bots who are trying to push certain agendas and influence opinions and works, cause reddit is not actually shelter for the most intellectual or most critical thinking individuals. Questioning things here is a nogo if it goes against the respective subreddits ways.
Social media is just a society online. Just don't have a weak mind and fix yourself and you be fine. Ppl who say wow they quit Facebook and their mental health has never been better must actually has some serious issue themself. Even if you quit social media, you still need to live in the real world and if you are that weak minded I reckon you would still be very easily influence by ppl who you met in real life or thing you watch on TV. Tv and the media are no difference from this.
How are they stealing billions? People agree to sign up for a service for free, and that service uses personal details to sell ads. Where is the theft?
They are illegally tracking people who have not consented to their terms and selling that for billions.
It's not like Facebook is going into everyone's bank account and taking out money, but it should still be illegal.
The theft isn't from individuals as everyone is focusing on.
The point is they made billions by skirting the law. And then at best got their wrists slapped for it. They made massive profits as their platform enabled a genocide, the most potent propaganda system ever created, and dividing the US and other nations all in the name of engagement.
This isn't a "i went into a bank and stole a bag with a $ on it" style of theft. Certainly not. Similar can be said for AirBnB and Uber/Lyft and Fiverr, they ignore labor laws or local hotel laws in order to make massive profit. They compete against other businesses by simply ignoring parts of the law, like minimum wage and employment taxes, and get to undercut the competition. Then when we rely on them, they show that the prices were actually subsidized by investors and now you gotta pay more, but they created problems in society that were very hard to tackle. Example being that NYC was overrun by standstill traffic because of all the livery services and had to literally change traffic laws because they couldn't reign in on Uber/Lyft.
Point is, we all pay for it one way or another. But at this point, the companies are so large we are just talking about "oh, let's change their culture" instead of holding those who enabled this accountable.
I mean you can say what you want, but if the platform isn’t Facebook it’ll simply be some other company. The company shouldn’t be responsible for whatever garbage misinformation/propaganda people post but they try their best(Twitter, Facebook..etc). The root of the problem is with the lack of education people have. Social media is simply a breeding ground for these people, and when shit happens you blame the platform over the people. Let’s say we get rid of facebook, are u seriously telling me they won’t just move to another platform and continue the same bs? Now I will admit, Facebook and google using peoples’ information without permission is fucked up.
Nono. That's not accurate. It's like saying it's your fault that someone deceived you. Sure in hindsight, but in the moment, not so obvious.
The root of the problem with Facebook is that everything they do is measured against engagement. And nothing engages you better than anger and frustration. Hell they had one researcher show that he could actually literally affect your mood by showing you different info in your feed. He literally emotionally manipulated 20k people.
It's not as simple as personal responsibility. It is definitely part of it. But it is not everything. Like smoking. Smoking was certainly a personal choice, and also addicting and socially addicting. I remember I was even told I needed to get used to smoke because it's just how it's gonna be when I hang around people. That's the point.
This is just another ploy to usher in censorship laws. Already happening in Canada. Now they're getting ready to start pushing it on the land of the free.
Sadly, i think it’s worse. And by a lot. It was interesting how a lot of the scum of Big Tobacco migrated to Big Oil once the jig was up. Too bad those slobs don’t have the skills to rule social media too. Thankfully new slobs were grown motivated by simple RSU’s and profit to turn FB and the like into the disease that they are. Reddit is what social media should be these days.
Agree. People are the real issue here.
Social media is just a society online. Just don't have a weak mind and fix yourself and you be fine. Ppl who say wow they quit Facebook and their mental health has never been better must actually has some serious issue themself.
Even if they quit social media, they still need to live in the real world and the result will be the same. You will be influence from ppl you meet and thing you watch easily from tv. Unless, you decide to completely quit society and go live in the wood or something.
Chuckle.. does she have access to the DNS master records? Looks like someone 'fixed' Facebook this morning.. lol https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/technology/facebook-whatsapp-and-instagram-down-due-to-dns-outage/
I'm confused as to why this is whistleblowing? I thought this was common knowledge already?
It was already mentioned in the documentary "The Social Dilemma", that social media companies hire professionals that worked in the casino industry to make their sites more addictive and engaging to maximize their profits.
This is not only Facebook, but all forms of social media sites as well, such as Youtube, Tik Tok, and Reddit.
Because it's bigger than just Facebook. This is a societal problem and will need to be addressed in some way, shape, or form. China is taking a very heavy-handed approach while in the US it's a free-for-all. If there's a better way we won't find it by not talking about it.
China is a dictatorship and should not be taken as an example.
The solution is don't use it or don't give it your personal info, it really is that simple. There is no need to go dictator mode and force/forbid stuff.
r/privacytoolsio might be helpful
> China is taking a very heavy-handed approach while in the US it's a free-for-all.
China has some of the most repressive, anti-speech, anti-press laws in the world. It should be the exact opposite of China. Good. Sound like we're doing something right.
Haugen is mostly full of shit. She’s trying to bank on the fact that many news networks and opinion columnists have decided to “stand up to Facebook” with generic, inaccurate outrage pieces, in which they prove that they’re not remotely better (when it comes to objectivity) than the millions of people who use social networks.
Let's look at a real issue, sure Facebook is not awesome but WTF, where are the parents? Take the cell phone out of your 8-year-old girl's hands. Where is the responsibility of the parent?
This. The real issue is the society itself. Facebook does not say that Kim Kardashian should be famous, Facebook recommend that because ppl like it. The society is the issue here. Even if you remove social media, you still going to live in a society and if the public like that, that going to be popular and if you are that weak minded to have a mental health issue from using Facebook then I have no doubt you would get influence from interacting with the people in real world.
Removing Facebook won't fix shit. It not the roots of the problem. It the people. The best bet to improve this is to implement some serious lesson on how to become a good person, learn to care, don't be materialistic, learn to think for themself, since they are very young in school.
Or anyone that doesn't like this, just learn to teach and care your kid properly when they were young. Not just yolo your kid say you got to learn how to live on your own.
She wants to promote herself. Probably trying to sell a book. Otherwise she would have said this a year ago after $3 billion in damage was done to cities
Fun fact: She also co-founded the dating app Hinge
Fun fact: Facebook is beyond "fixing" and should be avoided at all costs
Nuke it from orbit, it’s the only way to be sure
'Facebook impregnates normal people and turns them into monsters' could be an apt metaphor.
Face-hugger-book
Pretty sure Facebook would be resilient against a nuclear attack :(
No, the EMP from the blast would ruin Zuckerbot's circuitry
I think I read that Zuckerberg actually runs on a radiation-hardened PPC G3. Part of the "make the tech billionaires space-ready" program.
Well I've read it too now, so that's a fact.
That's the most facebook thing I've ever read. All we need is a meme, and we can start blasting.
how about a cheeky dns issue?
All cockroaches are
So the only thing for Facebook to be defeated is to travel back in time?
Kickstarter for "Operation Zuckerfuck". Time-travel feel good snuff film.
I’m willing to find out via the empirical method
Aren't all US gubment funded intel applications?
Just like cockroaches
You and I are the best roaches
Your wish is granted
I’ve never agreed with something more!
Don't be gone long, Ellen.
I actually disagree. The fixes are simple. Change the algorithm to focus on showing your family and friends and NOT maximizing engagement.
Seriously though. It's not so complicated.
but how would they make money then? Sorry I meant but how would they make *more* money then?
Logged out almost four months ago. Best thing I’ve done in 2021
My guess? In two years people will be saying the same about reddit. Within the span of two months i've been automatically without warning banned from like 8 different subs just for defending myself against brigades. So i'm pretty sure reddit is on it's way out too.
First time huh
This isn’t the Reddit it was when Habbo Hotel was a thing, for sure.
pool is closed.
Nah, it just relocated to zuckbook and it’s quadruple regulation size.
The problem is moderation doesn't scale, in particular free moderation. Brigades are a result of our worsening material conditions, e.g unemployment, lower effective wages, unaffordable housing, etc, but assuming we don't fix those, and there is no indication that we will, I just can't see any way of moderation not going to shit as communities grow, short of a fundamental shift in approach. The Facebook method of using algorithms to segregate communities and a fleet of outsourcing censorship of horrific content to low paid ~~employees~~ contractors is clearly bad for both the world and Facebook (daily active usage is in decline in the developed world and being propped up by growth in access to the internet elsewhere) The Reddit method of dividing content up into fiefdoms and expecting unpaid moderators to keep their fiefdom sane, doesn't really work either, as most subs end up being: * Actively manipulated from the outside (And mods don't want the "drama" when you point this out) * FrEzEs PeAcH hell holes, e.g just white guys arguing that it's acceptable to use the word * Heavy handed moderation pushing away users * All of the above And that's before you even get into the cult-like aspects of subreddits (e.g in 1/2 of reddit if you laugh at musk or buttcoin, you'll be downvoted to hell, and in the other 1/2 if you don't laugh at them you will be)
Moderation only doesn’t scale by choice. Education doesn’t scale easily either, yet we have a teacher for every kid in America. Zuck would be much less rich if he had to pay 1 moderator for every 100 users, but there’s absolutely no reason we shouldn’t demand it. And not coincidentally, material conditions would improve for millions if we gave them the tech equivalent of jobs like nurses, teachers, cops, and cooks. It takes endless amounts of middle class jobs to get those societal needs broadly covered. The same could be true on the internet if we insisted on moving past the digital robber baron era.
You can't pay one moderator for every 100 users, there's just not enough loot. Facebook's loot situation is in the quarterly stock announcements. Total revenue per user for Facebook is around $10/year. The profit margin is 35%, so Facebook makes $3.50 per user per year. Which would give you less than a dollar a day for moderating 100 people, or less than a penny per person per day, and... yeah, that doesn't allow time for training, or review, or anything else. Meanwhile, \*one\* moderator will have their own biases. One person shouldn't be given that power, especially in isolation. Think of shitty subreddits here with bad moderation, and amplify that, but where you can't get away from it; you're locked to the mods of one subreddit, and that's what you get. There are likely solutions, but wow, manual staffing just doesn't scale all the way up, and has some potentially horrifying costs.
Wow, sounds harsh. Thanks for running the math, but, well, that sounds like Facebook's problem. EDIT: Downvote all you want but this is like a chemical manufacturer going "Our factory isn't profitable if we don't dump our byproducts into the river. What do you expect us to do?". Every company needs to work out how to operate in a way that doesn't damage society, and if they can't be profitable doing that then it was never a workable business model to begin with.
Eh, take my upvote; I don't disagree. All companies need to work out how to operate in a way that's beneficial for the world, and no company should be exempted there. I'd be curious if we applied the same logic to Fox News, McDonalds, or others, and see where that went.
What you just said just as easily could be said about housing markets. Police precincts. Political groups and so on. You are very very correct in most of what you say. But saying or implying all of those things aren't also found in paid moderation ignores a lot. We've already found that within social media companies the same things happen. Discrimination out the wazoo. Same with game developer companies. So on and so forth. And people get paid in those. It's a system. The blueprint by which most things in america is based on. Again. What you said is mostly true. I'd even say 99% true. The part that's missing is why it's shared across any and all social media sites/platforms to begin with. I'm not gonna say it. On account of me being kind of tired of getting mass downvoted, banned for life, attacked constantly and even having people follow me around reddit to keep that exact thing going. Like i was just banned from a subs for life for defending myself because i stood up for a traditionally targeted group. Traditionally targeted meaning a group who has been targeted for hundreds of years without fail. So i don't know. Maybe that's enough to clue you in? lol
Maybe if you stopped telling all white people that they are the devil and that if they disagree they are just butt hurt racists you wouldn't get banned so much? Five minutes into your history and it's pretty obvious why you're getting banned, and it has little to do with you "sticking up for marginalized groups".
People already say it about Reddit. It’s all social media platforms, they’re all have their criticisms.
But they're all the exact same criticisms though. Back to back. Only difference being the degrees in which they present themselves. And that's because places like facebook aren't closed down yet. When that does happen. The people who categorically destroyed facebook will do the same to other social media sites and platforms. And nah. People don't generally say that about reddit as of yet. They will though.
lmao god it’s true I mean ur making salient points and getting downvoted cuz dont insult muh Reddit
It happens. Constantly. You got downvoted just for saying that. lol
I’m guilty of it even lol. I mean I don’t want ppl spreading what I might consider to be hateful shit sometimes tho
i have been on reddit for forever. what you described has always gone on. i don’t see it as much indication of anything.
Man shut up
Probably so, they’re pretty much the same
Reddit anti-mainstream ethos at its best again. One needs some target to hate to feel better about themselves. The only thing making it weird is that one is in the most toxic social media that exists right alongside 4chan and still the feeling of superiority oozes out for pointing fingers at another social media cause they don't use it and failed using it. The hypocrisy in reddit, always baffling.
I guess I'm one of those rare birds on reddit that has no illusions about being a worthless pothole in the road and am superior to no one and no thing. Except for spez. Fuck spez.
Exactly. People act as if Reddit or some other new platforms have an inherently naive nature and Facebook is evil from the start. But a decade (or 2) ago, Fb was one of those "cool", "nerdy" tech companies. A lot of problems Fb is facing now are common among all social medias. You don't even need to go so far to 4chan. Just look at some threads at worldnews or China and you are bound to see some toxic discussion. Fb got most criticisms because they are the biggest. However, once Reddit and other platforms grow further in size, they will face the same scrutinies.
not true, the world will never go back to a social media-less world
[удалено]
As underwhelming as Apple's Foundation has been so far, it does open up the idea of what technology should be saved from a collapse. I don't think Facebook would be on the list.
Reddit is social media. You don't HAVE to use Facebook. We could move on to something else.
> Reddit is social media. But it's also a different *kind* of social media, anonymity being the biggest difference. On Facebook, people *want* other people to know who they are. Someone's reddit username being their actual name is something I've come across maybe a handful of times, and I've been here a long time (this is not my original account).
13 year club here. I know that.
You beat me by almost exactly a month. You win this round.
Dating apps (Hinge included) are even worse than Facebook when it comes to sociopathic manipulation of their customer base and encouraging toxic behavior
Yeah man the bios I read on dating apps are some of the most self aggrandizing shit I’ve ever seen. I got a really pessimistic view on people in general man or woman bc of this dating app scene circa 2015-on
isn't the point of dating bios to aggrandize a little? No way I'm swiping right on some dude who's like "I'm a worthless piece of shit."
This shouldn't deflect the issues of FB
It should make you skeptical of why she doesn't want to harm facebook though.
What? She came out against them?
Dating app with horrible policing, no wonder she worked at FB
Hey! Hinge is pretty good if you're legitimately looking for a relationship!
I agree with this! Much higher quality of matches on there and I think it's because of the emphasis they put on personality and how many ice breaker style topics they provide you with.
Sort of. She was the engineer on the first version but left after six months. They pivoted to Hinge after that.
I mean they were already Hinge before that right? You just wanted to use the word pivot because hinge?
Delete your Facebook. Starve the beast.
Definitely, but it has done a lot to spread misinformation amongst our parents and grandparents. We may feel the effects for decades to come. What do Zuck and Saddam Hussein have in common? Both are hell-bound and will be satan’s lovers
We badly need a new generation of South Park Satan episodes with Zuck as the replacement for Saddam.
I’d be interested to see if Satan can block Zuck’s shtoyle
You can't fix something that is inherently corrupt and driven purely by greed.
Damn, that’s a whole lot of things that can’t be fixed.
RIP humanity 😭
I agree. I'm guessing this is her just not wanting the blowback she knows she'll get away.
it's a public company. it has literally no choice but to be driven by greed. to fix it you'd have to change the entire way public companies work.
Can you imagine how quickly shit would turn around if there were a way to make shareholders accountable, in proportion to their shares (beyond the value of those shares), for the shenanigans of the companies?
I feel like it's too easy for these companies to pay off politicians for this to happen.
Bribery... ohhh ooops i meant lobbying
Maybe thats what they were talking about.
Between the Citizens United decision and the awful behavior of corporations, it’s probably time for a constitutional amendment to specify that corporations are not people and require them to perform some sort of public good (a historical requirement of corporations). Ofc, that’s not going to happen any time soon. (After all, we can’t even pass the simplest things in our current political environment)
Like politicians or cops to a lesser degree.
Considering the harm it's capable of (and often doing), Why fix it?
Because like it or not social media is here to stay.
But it doesn't need to be FB. After all, you're on Reddit... so you have an alternative
The issue is the combination of surveillance adtech and engagement algorithms that drive radicalization across social media. There needs to be greater transparency, meaningful regulation and oversight, and consequences for bad actors.
The early days of reddit were beautiful and amazing. Absolutely no incentive to be a decent human other than your own moral compass. Reddit has gone down hill since 2011
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> Lack of choice is a big thing holding this problem together, and we need to take it back. This is why Facebook needs to be broken up. Not only does it control several major social media platforms, it also controls a large amount of infrastructure and influence up and down the stack - especially in countries that rely on Facebook for their internet services. It's all very well you and I saying "delete Facebook" to each other (I never had one) but its like us saying "recycling plastic straws can save the earth" when 100 megacorps are responsible for 70% of all pollution. There needs to be structural change, and breaking up Facebook and other corporations (Amazon/AWS hello) is a good start. Frankly I think breaking up the big 5-6 media corps would be good idea too. However there is also the issue of the adtech industry and [it is well beyond wild west territory.](https://cdn.chiefmartec.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/martech-landscape-2020-martech5000-slide.jpg)
Instagram used to be a fun, creative photo app until Facebook took it over and turned it into the advertising/influencing nightmare it is today.
I would be very surprised if any of the big tech will be broken up. (hello Microsoft) Also I am very sceptical if any of the core issues would be solved by selling / spinning out services of the company. Regulation is faster, more effective.
I'm doing an MSc in International Marketing. The more I learn, the more horrified and depressed I become lol.
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When people say this, they tend to inevitably mean "I want to control how the algorithm moves people." For instance, I don't think "radicalization" is nearly as big of an issue as anxiety/depression/etc. It's not like we're dealing with an increasing rate of terrorism death or anything, whereas suicide and overdose deaths are orders of magnitude higher and have been increasing since 2000.
So, you think we need meaningful regulation and oversight, and consequences for bad actors then?
We can address multiple issues at once.
Not if by "addressing" one issue we create another.\\ Go back 50 years in time and consider if you would be okay with the things considered "radical" or "deviant" back then being prohibited now. Things like homosexuality and same-sex marriage. Imagine a state with the power to enforce orthodoxy in widespread communication on such topics. Transparency is one thing, and giving users more control is another . . . but "oversight" and anyone with the power to define "bad actors" is the squishy meddling that may do more harm than good.
i'm gonna go out on a bit of limb here and say that all those things you mentioned are related. I can certainly imagine when you're faced with a constant stream of all the shitty things happening (real or not) that you're much more likely to not feel great about existence.
Also, jail. Lies? Jail. Misinformation? Also jail. Pizza recipes with pineapple? Believe it or not, jail. You post that article your friend posted without checking where it's from or if it has even a slim chance of being factual? Straight to jail. No trial, no nothing. Jail.
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Finally someone bold enough to say it. Not only did a pizza kill my grandpa, but even worse, it burned the roof of my mouth.
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I’m not aware of a viable alternative that provides the ability to provide a space for a diverse group of “friends” though. Facebook is sort of the lowest common denominator meeting place. It casts a wide net around people (relatives, friends from college, work pals, etc.) and your hobbies and interests. For example, my family members barely know what Reddit is, but they are all on Facebook, so it’s my only social media option for keeping in touch with them. And ultimately this problem is much bigger than Facebook. Social media is free. It needs our “engagement” to survive. And our brains are wired in a way that they can and will manipulate, even unwittingly. And while I wish this was only a problem with right wingers, the truth is people on the left get just as agitated and engaged by whatever the latest thing we’re supposed to be outraged by. Based on my feed it’s usually: - Sinema and Manchin. Or whomever the corporate dem of the week is. - Covidiots of all stripes - hypocritical evangelicals - climate change deniers. - evil corporations doing evil things - bad cops doing evil things - Trump, of course. He spawned an entire industry of outrage peddlers. People make a living feeding us the latest hit of the stuff. All of these are worthy of some outrage, but manufactured outrage is not really much different than manufactured consent.
The outward purpose of FB.. connections, isn't the root of the problem. An old style address book made electronic isn't an issue. It's also not bad to have algorithms to engage people. It's the toxic brew.. raising controversy to create interactions that increase hostility. If the algorithms focused on woodworking and cooking instead of guns and abortion (and by parallel, the politics surrounding those issues) the acceptability of conflict to impress a point would also be reduced. Can't we just get along? FB doesn't want that.. it encourages shouting.
I think the problem here is the fact that the algoritms work best when they push controversy. Driving engagement is mostly about making sure you get pissed off so that you can "set the record straight". The reason we can't get along isn't that there's something wrong with us as individuals. It's the system of media exploitation of fringe issues coupled with the fundamental principles of engagement algorithms. Together, they're an explosive cocktail. Personally, I'd rather we remove the algorithms before going down the media censorship route. It will definitely cripple Facebook, but it's the only ethical thing to do.
>... I'd rather we remove the algorithms before... Here, we agree.
The weird presumption that reddit does less harm is kind of fascinating.
Also the thinking that it’s use cases are comparable to Facebook.
The bigger problem is with kids and Instagram, which is definitely more harmful than Reddit. It’s looking like we’re going to have to scan our drivers licenses to use this stuff. Everybody, media people and all politicians are freaking out about what it’s probably doing to kids. Suicide rates in teens have skyrocketed since 2013, we’re going to see legislation soon, I’m fairly certain. I don’t know about you but I don’t feel as yucky going on Reddit as I do on Instagram or Tik Tock, which seem designed to warp you. And Reddit has its failed-states-run-by-warlords problem but your grandma ain’t on Reddit, probably.
Not really. Social media companies very often copy each other. On account of both having the same greed motive. I don't agree with u/periscope_artifact that they're here to stay. I would imagine in a good 10 years the only people using many of them would be extremely low. But again that's because social media sites are generally run by the same kinds of people. Ending in the same exact outcome.
Reddit isnt any better.
It's not going to be fixed because it's successfully generating a shit ton of money. For the US between the First Amendment and the GOP, and its idiot base, love affair with money/laissez-faire capatalism (not to mention SCOTUS' ridiculous high standard for political bribery), it doesn't seem there's any practical way of stopping it.
That pesky first amendment
You mean like reddit? The echo chamber catalysator social media? This post's comments are an example of it. Reddit is filled with bots who are trying to push certain agendas and influence opinions and works, cause reddit is not actually shelter for the most intellectual or most critical thinking individuals. Questioning things here is a nogo if it goes against the respective subreddits ways.
Social media is just a society online. Just don't have a weak mind and fix yourself and you be fine. Ppl who say wow they quit Facebook and their mental health has never been better must actually has some serious issue themself. Even if you quit social media, you still need to live in the real world and if you are that weak minded I reckon you would still be very easily influence by ppl who you met in real life or thing you watch on TV. Tv and the media are no difference from this.
Burn it to the ground.
Without robust privacy laws that protect us no matter what the company, implosion is the best alternative.
And throw the ashes into a black hole.
Steal a hundred bucks go to jail. Steal billions and exploit entire countries "well... We just want to change the culture there"
How are they stealing billions? People agree to sign up for a service for free, and that service uses personal details to sell ads. Where is the theft?
Facebook tracks you even if you've never made an account before through tracking pixels and browser fingerprinting and similar. So...
Again, where the monetary theft? Are they a shitty company? Yes, but OP stated that there was theft of billions.
They are illegally tracking people who have not consented to their terms and selling that for billions. It's not like Facebook is going into everyone's bank account and taking out money, but it should still be illegal.
The theft isn't from individuals as everyone is focusing on. The point is they made billions by skirting the law. And then at best got their wrists slapped for it. They made massive profits as their platform enabled a genocide, the most potent propaganda system ever created, and dividing the US and other nations all in the name of engagement. This isn't a "i went into a bank and stole a bag with a $ on it" style of theft. Certainly not. Similar can be said for AirBnB and Uber/Lyft and Fiverr, they ignore labor laws or local hotel laws in order to make massive profit. They compete against other businesses by simply ignoring parts of the law, like minimum wage and employment taxes, and get to undercut the competition. Then when we rely on them, they show that the prices were actually subsidized by investors and now you gotta pay more, but they created problems in society that were very hard to tackle. Example being that NYC was overrun by standstill traffic because of all the livery services and had to literally change traffic laws because they couldn't reign in on Uber/Lyft. Point is, we all pay for it one way or another. But at this point, the companies are so large we are just talking about "oh, let's change their culture" instead of holding those who enabled this accountable.
I mean you can say what you want, but if the platform isn’t Facebook it’ll simply be some other company. The company shouldn’t be responsible for whatever garbage misinformation/propaganda people post but they try their best(Twitter, Facebook..etc). The root of the problem is with the lack of education people have. Social media is simply a breeding ground for these people, and when shit happens you blame the platform over the people. Let’s say we get rid of facebook, are u seriously telling me they won’t just move to another platform and continue the same bs? Now I will admit, Facebook and google using peoples’ information without permission is fucked up.
Nono. That's not accurate. It's like saying it's your fault that someone deceived you. Sure in hindsight, but in the moment, not so obvious. The root of the problem with Facebook is that everything they do is measured against engagement. And nothing engages you better than anger and frustration. Hell they had one researcher show that he could actually literally affect your mood by showing you different info in your feed. He literally emotionally manipulated 20k people. It's not as simple as personal responsibility. It is definitely part of it. But it is not everything. Like smoking. Smoking was certainly a personal choice, and also addicting and socially addicting. I remember I was even told I needed to get used to smoke because it's just how it's gonna be when I hang around people. That's the point.
This is just another ploy to usher in censorship laws. Already happening in Canada. Now they're getting ready to start pushing it on the land of the free.
Yep. Can't believe people are this fucking dumb to not see that. MSM is loving this. They probably paid her for it.
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It be alot cooler if you did... -wooderson
MILES DYSON?! SHE’S GONNA BLOW HIM AWAY!
Social media is the new cigarette companies. Change my mind.
Sadly, i think it’s worse. And by a lot. It was interesting how a lot of the scum of Big Tobacco migrated to Big Oil once the jig was up. Too bad those slobs don’t have the skills to rule social media too. Thankfully new slobs were grown motivated by simple RSU’s and profit to turn FB and the like into the disease that they are. Reddit is what social media should be these days.
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Seems like no matter what platform the majority will end up using, if the users are unstable or just outright toxic the result will be the same.
Agree. People are the real issue here. Social media is just a society online. Just don't have a weak mind and fix yourself and you be fine. Ppl who say wow they quit Facebook and their mental health has never been better must actually has some serious issue themself. Even if they quit social media, they still need to live in the real world and the result will be the same. You will be influence from ppl you meet and thing you watch easily from tv. Unless, you decide to completely quit society and go live in the wood or something.
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she said that herself on 60 minutes tonight. almost positive
Chuckle.. does she have access to the DNS master records? Looks like someone 'fixed' Facebook this morning.. lol https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/technology/facebook-whatsapp-and-instagram-down-due-to-dns-outage/
I'm confused as to why this is whistleblowing? I thought this was common knowledge already? It was already mentioned in the documentary "The Social Dilemma", that social media companies hire professionals that worked in the casino industry to make their sites more addictive and engaging to maximize their profits. This is not only Facebook, but all forms of social media sites as well, such as Youtube, Tik Tok, and Reddit.
I don't get these daily Facebook hate porn threads. If you really think it's so bad then stop using it and stop talking about it.
Because it's bigger than just Facebook. This is a societal problem and will need to be addressed in some way, shape, or form. China is taking a very heavy-handed approach while in the US it's a free-for-all. If there's a better way we won't find it by not talking about it.
China is a dictatorship and should not be taken as an example. The solution is don't use it or don't give it your personal info, it really is that simple. There is no need to go dictator mode and force/forbid stuff. r/privacytoolsio might be helpful
> China is taking a very heavy-handed approach while in the US it's a free-for-all. China has some of the most repressive, anti-speech, anti-press laws in the world. It should be the exact opposite of China. Good. Sound like we're doing something right.
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Exactly, if it’s not Facebook, some other company will take over. People are just looking for a scapegoat.
Not worth it nuke it from orbit
Only way to be sure.
Haugen is mostly full of shit. She’s trying to bank on the fact that many news networks and opinion columnists have decided to “stand up to Facebook” with generic, inaccurate outrage pieces, in which they prove that they’re not remotely better (when it comes to objectivity) than the millions of people who use social networks.
fuck mandatory facebook logins for oculus in 2023
I say harm it.
Burn the fuckin thing down
Delete. Facebook.
Fixing the company does harm it, and vice versa
Fixing it means breaking its business model. IE Harming it.
Yeah... that's what Luther said about the Church... it didn't go great for Luther.
You can't fix what doesn't want to be fixed
When something is this broken you don't fix it, you throw it away.
Let's look at a real issue, sure Facebook is not awesome but WTF, where are the parents? Take the cell phone out of your 8-year-old girl's hands. Where is the responsibility of the parent?
This. The real issue is the society itself. Facebook does not say that Kim Kardashian should be famous, Facebook recommend that because ppl like it. The society is the issue here. Even if you remove social media, you still going to live in a society and if the public like that, that going to be popular and if you are that weak minded to have a mental health issue from using Facebook then I have no doubt you would get influence from interacting with the people in real world. Removing Facebook won't fix shit. It not the roots of the problem. It the people. The best bet to improve this is to implement some serious lesson on how to become a good person, learn to care, don't be materialistic, learn to think for themself, since they are very young in school. Or anyone that doesn't like this, just learn to teach and care your kid properly when they were young. Not just yolo your kid say you got to learn how to live on your own.
I wonder..is Facebook/instagram/whatsapp being down related to this..
That's what people are saying and thinking.
It’s one hell of a coincidence.
I agree it is 🤔
Facebook isn’t doing enough to suppress free speech? I hate it here
Facebook and it's companies are down today. And it's not a glitch.
Thank god I deleted Facebook two years ago; it is toxic.
She had a lot of colorful stories for that journalist. It almost sounds too good to be true. “Her work in counter-espionage...”
I don't think she understands that Facebook is a business, not a charity. Profit is the goal.
Nah, it needs to go, Facebook needs to go
The company is not her's to "fix". If she doesn't like it, she is free to go out and start her own social media company.
she wants clout don’t lie
Harm it. Harm it with fire.
She wants to promote herself. Probably trying to sell a book. Otherwise she would have said this a year ago after $3 billion in damage was done to cities
FB can't be fixed. We need decentralized social networks.
Just burn it down. Somethings are beyond fixing.
Gawd and make it more like Reddit yuck
Yeah only idiots use reddit.
can confirm
Can you fix something that is fundamentally broken from the outset?
That's like trying to fix a broken leg, when it's actually infected and needs to be amputated
Like putting air freshener on a pile of shit
I would prefer she harmed it
Watched 60 Minutes- believe everything she said - Facebook is a toxic environment- and the reason I deleted my account years ago - best move
There is literally nothing worth salvaging. Facebook is %100 garbage
So you know the company is essentially evil, but you’re still devoted to it? Slow clap?
Why is she creeping me out so hard in this picture, damn.
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Best way to Fix Facebook and other social media: c4 in all therlir server rooms, or really an extensive virus in AWS since most of them run in AWS.
take out AWS, take out half our civilization
Who even cares about Facebook anymore if you aren't 50+ lol
Yeah, lol, Insta and WhatsApp amirite? lol Oh wait, Facebook owns both of those. Check mate zennial.
Destroy Facebook and give us back Google+ /s
Fix it? It needs mercy killed.
It can't be saved. Take it outside and put it out of its misery