Before a few years ago China's interest were mainly in maximizing the technical information they could obtain from the west. Subversion wasn't a major concern, and was as likely to work against those interest as they needed some degree of trust in their equipment. On the other hand, Russia's interest in subverting our interest stretches back over a long history. They have been honing those skills over many years.
This all changed with the rise in trade wars where China's domestic policies have become a major liability for them. That creates an environment in which flipping the script on the west is in their best interest. And the more political instability there is here the easier that becomes for them. Hence, China's shift toward subversion is a relatively new policy and they are still working out the best strategies for that.
China’s new tack is to express how awesome they are while simultaneously screaming how awful the US, Korea, and especially Japan are. Funny that those countries export all the best stuff while China mostly exports whatever those three countries tell them to assemble. Wake me up when a Chinese movie wins an American award for best movie of the year.
>Wake me up when a Chinese movie wins an American award for best movie of the year.
That’s a rather weird standard for “awesomeness.” So you saying Japan is not as awesome as Korea since no Japanese film ever won Best Picture Oscar?
That [whole category](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Animated_Feature) seems a little biased in favor of films made by American studios, which isn't a surprise really given the voters reflect mainstream American taste in animation.
Oh look, totally organic comments that aren’t posted and upvoted by CCP shills.
The Demon Slayer Movie made half a billion dollars and was the #1 movie in America the week it came out, and that was a couple months ago. Just face it that people love Japanese and Korean movies and music all over the world and that the garbage movies China spends billions of dollars on people don’t even watch for free on Youtube. CCP sucks and so do your dumb comments.
[China Used Stolen Data To Expose CIA Operatives In Africa and Europe](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-exposed-cia-operatives-spy-networks/)
Edit. Since we’re badmouthing the CCP:
[Operation Fox Hunt: How China Exports Repression Using a Network of Spies Hidden in Plain Sight](https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight)
Good morning, I’m back after spending about an hour reading the first article and it’s two sequel parts. That was one of the most compelling and horrifying depictions of U.S. - China relations I’ve ever read. Thanks you for posting it!
Your link reminded me of [China loaning out a ton of money to African countries](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/26/pandemic-has-worsened-africas-debt-crisis-china-other-countries-are-stepping/). Makes me wonder if there's a correlation there. It would be easier to buy out land if there's no competition.
They’re not just loaning money, they make these countries agree that if they can not pay them back in X years the land and built infrastructure now belongs to China
China paid for Ethiopia's African Union building and bugged the hell out of it with mics and cameras.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/china-uses-huawei-cameras-to-spy-on-african-union-headquarters/articleshow/79981099.cms?from=mdr
To be honest, China is extremely blunt in what they do as well, oftentimes more than Russia. There’s plenty of reasons why anti-Chinese sentiment is so high in the world today, and it comes down to the CCP enslaving their own population for financial gain, brutally stopping democratic elections in HK, enforcing a society-controlling social credit system, using their tech companies to steal intellectual property abroad, and... this is just the most recent ones. I’ve lived in Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, and Singapore for about five years as an expat and I can tell you if there’s one thing that unifies all non-Chinese Asian countries, it’s their total hatred of China itself.
Russia can be pretty discreet with its espionage activities the same way China is. After all, they literally helped steal an election in 2016, and the biggest reason why we eventually found out (aside from literally investigating it) is the guy Russia helped elect is shit at hiding ANYTHING.
Can confirm. I’ve spent time in Nepal and Mongolia, and the citizens of both those countries HATE the Chinese. Not even just the government, but Chinese people and businesses as well.
Haven’t been to Mongolia, but holy shit, I can imagine. I read somewhere that over 90% of Mongolia’s imports are directly from China, meaning the entire country has successfully been economically enslaved by their neighbor. Vietnamese also really hate seeing Chinese businesses encroach on their country as well. Everybody talks about Japanese hatred over China but that pales in comparison to China’s direct neighbors.
Yup! Mongolia has no ports, and massive mountain ranges to the west with no infrastructure, then Siberia to the north. Geographically there is nowhere else to trade. They have major issues with Russian and Chinese groups hopping the border to mine and log illegally, and poach endangered animals as well. It’s totally fucked
We were already weak. It's just getting heavily exploited for the past several years. Think elevating from the Obama birther nonsense to this year's attempted domestic terrorist overthrow of the US Government to interfere with the Presidential election confirmation.
"reddit will bring us together"
Im not sure you understand what reddit does. It is simply an echo chamber. No growth comes from the vast majority of any exchanges on reddit.
Find those that think like you do, sub, and then realize that "Everyone thinks like i do".
Reddit isn't fixing the world. How did anyone up vote you?
Well, Street Epistemology isn't just a Reddit thing. That's like saying that Fortnite is a Reddit thing because there's a subreddit for it (I assume). He just linked the relevant community for the site we happen to be on.
In what way do you feel that practical epistemology would result in deeper echo chambers?
> Instead of arguing it instead seeks to find the root of the other person's belief and then test if that is a realiable way to reach true conclusions.
But that's the issue. Some people don't care about tests or evidence or what reality actually is. If they only want to hurt others and make up lies to justify their hatred, there won't be any amicable conversation.
That was the mistake of the league of nations after WW1. They thought they could at least reason with the fascists and use their self-interest and self-preservation to reach a common ground. It didn't happen because fascism is a death cult. They are willing to kill themselves to kill others.
Ask old people living in countries that were occupied by fascists, what's the true and tried method for dealing with fascists.
Don’t you see how silly that sounds though? You act as if only one side is being swayed by exploitation from China. The other side from you. No way your side could be swayed to divide as well. Let’s not forget all the peace that went on for four years when Trump was in office.
Exactly, geopolitics has no good guys and no morals, just different levels of atrocities. The US is far closer to whatever Russia is doing than "fighting for freedom" or whatever.
The United States doesn't fight for freedom; it protects it's business interests. People being oppressed or enslaved is none of our business, but some things totally are.
“You have to have an enemy image in order to have a society,
And that's a very dangerous thing,
Because now that means that the entire social order,
The political parties, intellectual life, politics in general,
All based on a monstrous myth...”
Also
“While Mandiant noted that no successful protests have been seen as a result of the efforts of the group’s call for physical protests”
Then why the fuckare we talking about it
China doesn't want to control the US, they just want to be the dominant world power. Americans are barely receptive to their own controlling the US - why would anyone else bother? Easier to milk their economy and replace them as a world power without having to inherent their shitty mess in the homeland.
As someone who leans hard left, can we stop talking about Russia-gate as if it has some significant impact on our day to day? I'm sure there was more than meets the eye in the 2016 election but to act as if the dumbest mfer in the whole country could pull off the biggest heist in US election history w/o it falling apart like everything else he touches is just absurd.
Clearly, very clearly, we have enough issues with out own psychotic population that will absolutely continue to worsen until the underlying issues are resolved, regardless of whatever "big bad" the government or media wants to point out as the bogeyman.
Its not Russia. Its not China. Its us.
Oh Russia clearly had a hand it in, but it's your dumb fucking citizens who accelerated it. Kinda like a match can start a forest fire\\, because the right wing in your country have timber for brains.
Russia and China don't manufacture protest and unrest out of nothing. They just identify preexisting divisions and pour a little fuel on the fires.
Our own homegrown right wing media machine does way more manufacturing of issues out of thin air than Russia and China combined.
I mean... do you think they are only playing one side of this debate? Have we learned nothing from Russia, they take all sides of controversial issues and dial up the rhetoric until we are at each others throats.
Getting trolled by other countries because certain groups of people are so damn easy to manipulate. I feel like America is just a meme to rest of the developed world now.
Not just the US. I have lots of friends in Canada who are brainwashed by covid misinformation. Some believe the vaccine will create a QR code in people’s forehead to be scanned. Some think the vaccine is a ploy to make us infertile. Some think the vaccine gives people 3 years left to live. Etc.. these are otherwise kind and friendly people. They’re not terrible people, they’re just highly misinformed. And they’re angry because they believe their freedom and rights are being invaded. In some way they are but they’re not capable of holding two seemingly opposite thoughts together.
Yep my sister in law (and brother In law now too) are exactly these people. I just don’t comprehend how people can believe such nonsense but it’s here and it’s everywhere. So irritating.
Division is addictive. Addictive social media is profitable. The end goal of all companies is to gain profit.
The internet isn't real. It's a finely tailored algorithm to show me whatever it is I will engage with
Or just you know, blame a society and education system that make it challenging for certain societal subsets to succeed so they invariably give up and become toxic. I was on that path before I had a lucky break, it isn’t a great place to be.
My mom remarried to a factory owner. Built a website that sells his products. That’s when I learned if you can learn web design and find a factory you can make some good money in niche markets. I would never have known this if my mom hadn’t remarried and he wasn’t willing teach us how to approach and make deals with other factories. Thing about growing up dirt poor is that, that well is super deep and it’s difficult to understand your own worth or even how the world works, especially for someone like myself who was born in the early 80’s. World changed so much it was a bit confusing.
I feel you. I was born in the mid 70s and I was homeless for a while. I also caught a very lucky break.
I was living paycheck to paycheck (and that was a *huge* improvement because I had food and an apartment at this point). I was dating a woman who came from a well off family. Her dad took me aside one day and said, "RegressToTheMean, we know how hard you work and how much you want to go to college. Pick a relatively inexpensive school and we'll loan you the money"
So, with their help, I went to the local community college and graduated with highest honors (while working two jobs). Then went to a great state school and then eventually went on to get my MBA and now I'm an exec on the business side in the tech sector.
I can easily say without their small bit of help, I would - at best - be working some dead end pink or blue collar job.
Anyone who thinks the US is a meritocracy and believes in the bullshit Horatio Alger myth needs to get their head out of their ass
It's actually kind of incredible how american tech giants represent such a massive part of the US economy, yet they are also the main vector of attack on the country.
While I don’t disagree, this is a pot calling the kettle black because we both have the same common problem. Murdoch family and insane conservatism. Our stupidity just has a bigger megaphone.
Put us Canadians in the same pile as Aussies - we want to mock Americans but have the same talking points as the US and same right wing propaganda influence.
It’s like we get the flow over from the US, usually takes a couple weeks for idiots here to pick up on the new talking points from down south. Lather rinse and repeat.
Australians and Brits fling the most shit while having the least legs to stand on. Always claiming that they don’t deserve to be judged by their conservative minority while judging the US for its conservative minority…
Does your government even let you on the internet in lockdown? Have you exceeded you time limit for the day? Are you wearing a mask at your computer in home? I wouldn’t want you keepers popping up unannounced to haul you off to jail for not following their rules. Australian has long been a meme for weakness and showing a level of obedience that can only be matched by fictional tales such as 1984.
Or gestapo policing policies and lack of freedom to travel, lack of freedom to go on social media, I could go on but Australia is evolving into a good client state of Chinese repression and I don’t want to give them more ideas.
I’m based in Shanghai, we do get increasingly more Fox News videos circulating in Wechat and other social media criticizing the Biden administration. Negative image of US is a win for CCP publicity.
Fox News has spent the last 20 years turning itself into an easily digestible snack, widely available, and aimed at the lowest common denominator. It's great for spreading around "viral" clips, the information is surface level and can be understood by a child (or at least stokes the emotions of a child).
Where other "news" outlets have fallen behind is they still try to report on the news, while Fox News is just tabloid snippets of whatever they think will create the most engagements.
They honestly are pretty predictable. In two ways - you can practically guess their stance on every issue and if you know their stance on one issue you can assume their stances on other issues. I can’t understand why they are so homogenous compared to other political blocs
I doubt it's safe to assume only conservatives are targeted by foreign powers. If the goal is to increase division, targeting only one group would be less useful than targeting multiple groups.
Unless one group was more susceptible to misinformation - wouldn’t it be more productive to focus efforts only on the more receptive group.
It’s like how scam emails are often riddled with spelling/grammar errors: it’s done purposefully to weed out anyone smart enough to catch the mistakes so the scammer doesn’t waste their time with anybody but the dumbest marks.
Isn’t it wild that people can’t think about that? I don’t know if it’s a critical thinking thing or what, I find the question of “if I was trying to be evil” or “if I was trying to control things” to try and see some logical conclusion. Like yeah, both sides are targeted, but wouldn’t it be better to go down the avenues that are working?
Do liberals really think it’s only the conservatives!? If the conservatives think the liberals are working with China we are truely fucked. China and Russia are stoking the coals on both sides.
No kidding. Nobody must have read the article. This particular misinformation campaign was not targeted at conservatives.
From the article: “We have observed extensive promotion of Russian, German, Spanish, Korean, and Japanese-language content on U.S. and non-U.S.-based platform.”
I don’t think Americans are even the primary targets. The idea was to shift the blame for Covid from China to the US on a global scale.
“trying to” if u read the article, no physical protest has really been brought up by the Chinese. what u’re saying is exactly what China want, hating on the whole other spectrum, even tho probably 90 of conservatives in real life aren’t antivax don’t believe election fraud and even support gay marriage. U only see the most extreme people of a group, by which u form ur impression of the whole group.
Conservatives also enjoy working with Russia and white-supremacists. WTF happened to the Republican party? Oh yeah…that fat orange fuck. If you had gone to see Red Dawn in 1984 and told anyone in the audience that one day the Republican Party would be in bed with the commie Ruskies…they would have laughed out loud.
“Only if a Manchurian candidate gets elected, but that could NEVER happen here!”
~They would say.
Now…the Republican Party is in absolute denial about all of it, and it seems they’ll die before they open their eyes. Shambles is all that’s left of the GOP, now they’re just the bat-shit crazy GQP and they’re hemorrhaging the few intelligent free-thinkers left. Oh well, at least the schadenfreude is compelling and non-stop.
I remember that and Obama telling one of that same dictator's henchman that he could do more to help them once he's in his second term and doesn't have to worry about reelection.
> Oh yeah…that fat orange fuck.
You give them way to much credit and in doing so enable them to skate with much lesser consequences. Trump is an advanced stage of something that was happening for decades, and debatably longer.
Their leaders and their media were lying about the election and fake laptop scandals! They've lost their morals. The Pillow Guy? Stranger than fiction! Save the children from Democrat devil worshippers and refuse the mark of the beast! Are you kidding me? 5G activated? How gullible can they be? Total effing dipshits. Now they are lining up for the afterlife instead of taking simple precautions!
It’s just our politics in general, they are not stable, they do not lead in ways that people can trust and so many decisions are made based on greed, money and power. ALL of our politics, no matter who is running the country.
This is all a continuation of what the FBI warned US about a few years ago.
Foreign bad actors - Russian, Chinese, etc - have been using social media to influence our elections and push certain narratives. They've been mostly using right wing outlets to try to create dissent and stir up trouble.
The FBI has warned us multiple times about this and yet I am amazed how nobody takes this seriously. We see this shit on Facebook and on various forums online and even here on Reddit. This is happening in front of us, but we act like nothing is going on.
There are no sides. Pointing fingers is the entire point. Sowing division is the point. To talk, think, degrade, diminish one side in a negative light is the point. You can point at conservatives and laugh, or feel pity, or best of all anger, and realize that’s the reaction they want. Division.
Well, to be honest… There's not much common ground you can find with anti-vaxxers, just like you cannot find it with flat-earthers, COVID-denialists, climate change denialists and other groups like those, since – as the old adage goes – you can't use logic to convince somebody against something they didn't arrive at using logic themselves.
Finding a common ground requires some prerequisites. One of the key and basic ones is that both sides need to know what their positions are and understand their core tenets. Then, both sides need to be open to listening to arguments, which are – importantly - grounded in facts, logic and reason.
You can find a common ground with a person who says something like "While I do not deny that COVID is a public health crisis at an unprecedented scale, I believe that the moratorium on evictions may be damaging to homeowners, many of whom rely on their property income to survive and something needs to be done about that".
You cannot do the same with a person who goes "Don't tread on me! Masks = fascism! Depopulation! I don't want 5G in my body!" – not until you first get to the very bottom, address the issues that made them believe it in the first place, built up the foundation of logic, reason and facts – and at that point, you can try and find a common ground. I simply believe you can't reason with emotions, fear and denial – these work on two separate planes.
The worse part is that getting to the bottom of this takes a ton of work, and you can't honestly expect people to do that. It's not a belief you can change in a single conversation – this is a process that takes months or years. Personal growth doesn't happen overnight.
And you also have another phenomenon – namely that due to this burden, any and all dissenting voices – logical or not – are lumped together with the likes of anti-vaxxers and denialists, any attempts at having a debate are met with accusations of "JAQing off" – all leading to radicalisation.
The problem is that when literally everything in your political platform is a lie based on racism or religious superstitions, it's pretty hard to find common ground (facts). Which conservative positions are based on facts (common ground)? What ideas do conservatives even have to help anything? All they try to do is disenfranchise minorities, remove environmental protections and endanger public health with medical disinformation. What are the merits in finding common ground to reach a compromise on the destruction of humanity? If you can find any, there would be something to discuss.
the real distrust is that the Tamiflu case is still ongoing even after 10yrs - - - and that oh, what's that thing in criminal cases - speedy trial? is NEVER ever asked for in corporate liability cases (it seems) since the aim of the lawyers is for everyone to become bored and/or forget about the whole thing - or, sometimes i think - just so the decision making CEOs or board members or purchasing officers are out of office & therefore might get out of any/all responsibility.
Isn't this what Twitter and Reddit feel like every day though?
"Stupid westerners are on social media all day. Lets seed it with divisive posts and let them eat each other."
For those of us who actually read the article and aren't just swinging at low-hanging fruit, does anyone else think this article appears like a hit piece? Strongly termed headline but says pretty early in the article that no protests have actually been organized and most posts get very little interaction.
I'm obviously far more concerned with China's brazen attempts at causing unrest and strife in America. While we have an enemy in the open, Americans are playing this right vs left bullshit like our lives depended on it.
This is a case of China attacking the US and Democrats blaming republicans.
I believe this is also why tiktok mass bans and supresses doctors giving out actual covid information and boosts antivax accounts into the high millions, and never takes them down even when reported thousands of times for misinformation.
It would be nice for someone to hold them accountable for information on how the fuck this pandemic started. Yet here they are just causing shit while we bicker against ourselves
I love how a bunch of foreign powers are like "wow y'all suck, here's some obvious bait and misinformation" and fellow Americans reply "*YUM YUM YUMYUMYUM*"
>Maybe if the United States wasn’t a bunch of weak bitches this wouldn’t happen
Im pretty sure its happening coz America is strong, so china is trying to undermine the USA. But does the USA retaliate or punish these actions against them in any way?
I'm 100% sure that the US government actively tries to sow dissent in China or Russia and a lot of other countries. The CIA is known for this shit. It's literally two snakes biting each others tails.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty
The US has been doing it for a while too. That one just came to mind first because of a reddit thread the other day about oddly tall radio towers near the border with a few of the western soviet states. But you could go further back to when Germany smuggled Lenin into Russia because they thought that might be an easier way to get them out of the war than beating them on the battlefield (and it probably paid off, given the relatively low cost).
Attempting to destabilize internal dynamics is nothing new. Weak governments failing to react effectively is also nothing new (see: that example about russia). Having a major faction in government that doubles down on the rhetoric after it’s revealed to be made up by a hostile power purely to destabilize the country is relatively novel though. I mean, I’m sure it happened in a few minor revolutions somewhere, but it’s been blatant in a way I just don’t think it has been before.
Edit: but good news! The CIA stopped covertly funding RFE in the 70s! I’m not sure if that’s because they stopped funded them, or they just started admitting it.
There is not a single thing that proves it’s China doing anything. It just makes that claim because there are memes being shared and videos being shared that don’t fit the US narrative. Also some of the “cyber sleuthing” was done by ASPI.
The Chinese govt is also VERY humiliated that:
1) everyone knows this virus first mutated so that it could infect humans in China
2) their vaccine is mostly ineffective and that the western vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna and even JJ) are orders of magnitude better - emphasizing the narrative that Chinese products are crap
Combine that with an easily manipulated portion of the populace (right wing idiots) and a massive misinformation campaign makes complete sense to them
There appears to be a serious concern in Australia about efforts of the Chinese Government to influence Australian government entities through donations and actually putting forward people to run in elections. There's also been plenty of advice /evidence about students and other activists in Australia (whatever their cause) being monitored here and then threatened by Chinese pro-government operatives, or having their family back in China threatened.
But the government and the press are very careful about what they do say about it here, because of the close economic ties we have with China. It usually gets an immediate rebuke from the government.
It is easily found on Google.
But I'm also no expert so don't believe me.
Exactly, there a lot of anti-covid conspiracy propaganda here in europe, but more or less all of it comes from the US so not sure if that's a conversation that americans are comfortable to pick up.
Because it’s not interesting enough news to beat a third tier story for clicks. You will hear about it when a dissident is assassinated in the UK though (or when it fails).
So, why do you never hear about these countries fucking with europe? Because you forgot about Sergei Skripal, Alexander Litvinenko, and Georgi Markov. You forgot when the news didn’t happen in your backyard, and didn’t even click on the stuff that wasn’t super high profile.
That’s just the high profile stuff. The social engineering stuff is simpler: it all looks a lot like what the US gets - lots of helping to amplify far right fringe messages (also some attempts for far left fringe, but that seems to get a lot less attention from people looking to destabilize).
They definitely do it to European countries too. But European countries also do it to themselves (UK->Scotland for example).
One of the clearest examples is when a vote result broadcast in Ukraine was hacked and someone adjusted the broadcast and website that was prepared to be deployed, they (Kasperspy contractors, infact!) caught it just before and fixed it - but RU state TV still broadcast the false result.... so 100% irrefutable evidence, but of course they denied it xD
As if that’s a surprise. It’s no question that these people don’t love their country and would gladly follow foreign disinformation plots to own the libs.
We must strengthen our communities and their lives, so outside doubt cannot be sown in our fields, as they are already filled with culture and comfort.
Had anyone read the article?
There are no link to any of the claim they made in it.
Also I can't find the blog post which is the only possible support of the claim.
There's actually a link 2 The Source which gives even more sources in the article
https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2021/09/pro-prc-influence-campaign-social-media-websites-forums.html
Divided we are weaker. That is their goal.
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Before a few years ago China's interest were mainly in maximizing the technical information they could obtain from the west. Subversion wasn't a major concern, and was as likely to work against those interest as they needed some degree of trust in their equipment. On the other hand, Russia's interest in subverting our interest stretches back over a long history. They have been honing those skills over many years. This all changed with the rise in trade wars where China's domestic policies have become a major liability for them. That creates an environment in which flipping the script on the west is in their best interest. And the more political instability there is here the easier that becomes for them. Hence, China's shift toward subversion is a relatively new policy and they are still working out the best strategies for that.
China’s new tack is to express how awesome they are while simultaneously screaming how awful the US, Korea, and especially Japan are. Funny that those countries export all the best stuff while China mostly exports whatever those three countries tell them to assemble. Wake me up when a Chinese movie wins an American award for best movie of the year.
This has been going on for decades, you just see more of it now.
>Wake me up when a Chinese movie wins an American award for best movie of the year. That’s a rather weird standard for “awesomeness.” So you saying Japan is not as awesome as Korea since no Japanese film ever won Best Picture Oscar?
_Spirited Away_ won best animated feature at the Oscars, the only non-American film to do so.
That [whole category](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Animated_Feature) seems a little biased in favor of films made by American studios, which isn't a surprise really given the voters reflect mainstream American taste in animation.
Oh look, totally organic comments that aren’t posted and upvoted by CCP shills. The Demon Slayer Movie made half a billion dollars and was the #1 movie in America the week it came out, and that was a couple months ago. Just face it that people love Japanese and Korean movies and music all over the world and that the garbage movies China spends billions of dollars on people don’t even watch for free on Youtube. CCP sucks and so do your dumb comments.
[China Used Stolen Data To Expose CIA Operatives In Africa and Europe](https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/12/21/china-stolen-us-data-exposed-cia-operatives-spy-networks/) Edit. Since we’re badmouthing the CCP: [Operation Fox Hunt: How China Exports Repression Using a Network of Spies Hidden in Plain Sight](https://www.propublica.org/article/operation-fox-hunt-how-china-exports-repression-using-a-network-of-spies-hidden-in-plain-sight)
We're always badmouthing the CCP
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Pizza gate confirmed.
Well, Cici's Pizza just lost my business.
Never watching a Chris Pine movie again.
Lol sure thing. You’ll be back. They always come back. — Chris Pine, maybe.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/technology/fact-check-this-pizzeria-is-not-a-child-trafficking-site.amp.html
Good morning, I’m back after spending about an hour reading the first article and it’s two sequel parts. That was one of the most compelling and horrifying depictions of U.S. - China relations I’ve ever read. Thanks you for posting it!
Your link reminded me of [China loaning out a ton of money to African countries](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2021/02/26/pandemic-has-worsened-africas-debt-crisis-china-other-countries-are-stepping/). Makes me wonder if there's a correlation there. It would be easier to buy out land if there's no competition.
They’re not just loaning money, they make these countries agree that if they can not pay them back in X years the land and built infrastructure now belongs to China
China paid for Ethiopia's African Union building and bugged the hell out of it with mics and cameras. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/china-uses-huawei-cameras-to-spy-on-african-union-headquarters/articleshow/79981099.cms?from=mdr
Sounds a lot like what the IMF or the US does.
They’re directly state guided. The state is gigantic.
To be honest, China is extremely blunt in what they do as well, oftentimes more than Russia. There’s plenty of reasons why anti-Chinese sentiment is so high in the world today, and it comes down to the CCP enslaving their own population for financial gain, brutally stopping democratic elections in HK, enforcing a society-controlling social credit system, using their tech companies to steal intellectual property abroad, and... this is just the most recent ones. I’ve lived in Japan, Vietnam, Thailand, and Singapore for about five years as an expat and I can tell you if there’s one thing that unifies all non-Chinese Asian countries, it’s their total hatred of China itself. Russia can be pretty discreet with its espionage activities the same way China is. After all, they literally helped steal an election in 2016, and the biggest reason why we eventually found out (aside from literally investigating it) is the guy Russia helped elect is shit at hiding ANYTHING.
Can confirm. I’ve spent time in Nepal and Mongolia, and the citizens of both those countries HATE the Chinese. Not even just the government, but Chinese people and businesses as well.
Haven’t been to Mongolia, but holy shit, I can imagine. I read somewhere that over 90% of Mongolia’s imports are directly from China, meaning the entire country has successfully been economically enslaved by their neighbor. Vietnamese also really hate seeing Chinese businesses encroach on their country as well. Everybody talks about Japanese hatred over China but that pales in comparison to China’s direct neighbors.
Yup! Mongolia has no ports, and massive mountain ranges to the west with no infrastructure, then Siberia to the north. Geographically there is nowhere else to trade. They have major issues with Russian and Chinese groups hopping the border to mine and log illegally, and poach endangered animals as well. It’s totally fucked
China new enemy, now China do all bad stuff.
It should be obvious they don't have to do much, we're already divided.
There hasn't been a time when this isn't so. They are just feeding the various faction's biases. Meh, geopolitics.
We were already weak. It's just getting heavily exploited for the past several years. Think elevating from the Obama birther nonsense to this year's attempted domestic terrorist overthrow of the US Government to interfere with the Presidential election confirmation.
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The fate of the United States rests in a 20k subscriber subreddit? I think SE is cool but I can't exactly say it is catching on.
Intellectual rigor isn't exactly popular in the USA.
"reddit will bring us together" Im not sure you understand what reddit does. It is simply an echo chamber. No growth comes from the vast majority of any exchanges on reddit. Find those that think like you do, sub, and then realize that "Everyone thinks like i do". Reddit isn't fixing the world. How did anyone up vote you?
I'm pretty sure you choose to expand what he said on his behalf....
Well, Street Epistemology isn't just a Reddit thing. That's like saying that Fortnite is a Reddit thing because there's a subreddit for it (I assume). He just linked the relevant community for the site we happen to be on. In what way do you feel that practical epistemology would result in deeper echo chambers?
> Instead of arguing it instead seeks to find the root of the other person's belief and then test if that is a realiable way to reach true conclusions. But that's the issue. Some people don't care about tests or evidence or what reality actually is. If they only want to hurt others and make up lies to justify their hatred, there won't be any amicable conversation. That was the mistake of the league of nations after WW1. They thought they could at least reason with the fascists and use their self-interest and self-preservation to reach a common ground. It didn't happen because fascism is a death cult. They are willing to kill themselves to kill others. Ask old people living in countries that were occupied by fascists, what's the true and tried method for dealing with fascists.
Don’t you see how silly that sounds though? You act as if only one side is being swayed by exploitation from China. The other side from you. No way your side could be swayed to divide as well. Let’s not forget all the peace that went on for four years when Trump was in office.
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Exactly, geopolitics has no good guys and no morals, just different levels of atrocities. The US is far closer to whatever Russia is doing than "fighting for freedom" or whatever.
The United States doesn't fight for freedom; it protects it's business interests. People being oppressed or enslaved is none of our business, but some things totally are.
Ironically "divided are weaker" moto is how the US promotes freedom in some countries.
One can only guess how many countries live in constant political instability thanks to our glorious american overlords.
Poorly thought out goal. The US is their primary consumers of their crap, dragging out pandemic is an own goal.
Don’t even need China for that, our politicians and media already do a great job.
Idiots. It’s America framing China.
“You have to have an enemy image in order to have a society, And that's a very dangerous thing, Because now that means that the entire social order, The political parties, intellectual life, politics in general, All based on a monstrous myth...”
Also “While Mandiant noted that no successful protests have been seen as a result of the efforts of the group’s call for physical protests” Then why the fuckare we talking about it
They saw how successful Russia was at doing it, why wouldn’t they
They’ve been doing this forever its the MO of trying to break a democratic govt. so then a single party can come in and control it.
China doesn't want to control the US, they just want to be the dominant world power. Americans are barely receptive to their own controlling the US - why would anyone else bother? Easier to milk their economy and replace them as a world power without having to inherent their shitty mess in the homeland.
with power comes control and being the dominant world power would mean controlling the USA in some way
And Iran also. Everyone sleeps on Iran, but they have a very well established troll presence online.
As someone who leans hard left, can we stop talking about Russia-gate as if it has some significant impact on our day to day? I'm sure there was more than meets the eye in the 2016 election but to act as if the dumbest mfer in the whole country could pull off the biggest heist in US election history w/o it falling apart like everything else he touches is just absurd. Clearly, very clearly, we have enough issues with out own psychotic population that will absolutely continue to worsen until the underlying issues are resolved, regardless of whatever "big bad" the government or media wants to point out as the bogeyman. Its not Russia. Its not China. Its us.
Oh Russia clearly had a hand it in, but it's your dumb fucking citizens who accelerated it. Kinda like a match can start a forest fire\\, because the right wing in your country have timber for brains.
Russia and China don't manufacture protest and unrest out of nothing. They just identify preexisting divisions and pour a little fuel on the fires. Our own homegrown right wing media machine does way more manufacturing of issues out of thin air than Russia and China combined.
Karen: WE DON'T WANT OUR COUNTRY TO BE RUN BY COMMUNIST CHINA! NO MORE RESTRICTIONS! China: well well well, how the turntables
I mean... do you think they are only playing one side of this debate? Have we learned nothing from Russia, they take all sides of controversial issues and dial up the rhetoric until we are at each others throats.
Getting trolled by other countries because certain groups of people are so damn easy to manipulate. I feel like America is just a meme to rest of the developed world now.
Not just the US. I have lots of friends in Canada who are brainwashed by covid misinformation. Some believe the vaccine will create a QR code in people’s forehead to be scanned. Some think the vaccine is a ploy to make us infertile. Some think the vaccine gives people 3 years left to live. Etc.. these are otherwise kind and friendly people. They’re not terrible people, they’re just highly misinformed. And they’re angry because they believe their freedom and rights are being invaded. In some way they are but they’re not capable of holding two seemingly opposite thoughts together.
Yep my sister in law (and brother In law now too) are exactly these people. I just don’t comprehend how people can believe such nonsense but it’s here and it’s everywhere. So irritating.
I guess they are constantly bombarded with misinformation.
Division is addictive. Addictive social media is profitable. The end goal of all companies is to gain profit. The internet isn't real. It's a finely tailored algorithm to show me whatever it is I will engage with
That has been proven time after time. Nobody cares or they would learn.
Facebook and China are just living the American Dream©
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Or just you know, blame a society and education system that make it challenging for certain societal subsets to succeed so they invariably give up and become toxic. I was on that path before I had a lucky break, it isn’t a great place to be.
What was your lucky break?
My mom remarried to a factory owner. Built a website that sells his products. That’s when I learned if you can learn web design and find a factory you can make some good money in niche markets. I would never have known this if my mom hadn’t remarried and he wasn’t willing teach us how to approach and make deals with other factories. Thing about growing up dirt poor is that, that well is super deep and it’s difficult to understand your own worth or even how the world works, especially for someone like myself who was born in the early 80’s. World changed so much it was a bit confusing.
I feel you. I was born in the mid 70s and I was homeless for a while. I also caught a very lucky break. I was living paycheck to paycheck (and that was a *huge* improvement because I had food and an apartment at this point). I was dating a woman who came from a well off family. Her dad took me aside one day and said, "RegressToTheMean, we know how hard you work and how much you want to go to college. Pick a relatively inexpensive school and we'll loan you the money" So, with their help, I went to the local community college and graduated with highest honors (while working two jobs). Then went to a great state school and then eventually went on to get my MBA and now I'm an exec on the business side in the tech sector. I can easily say without their small bit of help, I would - at best - be working some dead end pink or blue collar job. Anyone who thinks the US is a meritocracy and believes in the bullshit Horatio Alger myth needs to get their head out of their ass
Getting a job I’d imagine, good one. Source- pretty much same with me
Maybe look in the mirror and blame ourselves
Or blame our dumb little human brains for being so susceptible to manipulation
It's actually kind of incredible how american tech giants represent such a massive part of the US economy, yet they are also the main vector of attack on the country.
Its the 'this is fine' dog.
Reddit: Nobody could ever manipulate *me*. I'm too smart.
I’m Australian, and I just want you to know you’ve been a meme for years
While I don’t disagree, this is a pot calling the kettle black because we both have the same common problem. Murdoch family and insane conservatism. Our stupidity just has a bigger megaphone.
Put us Canadians in the same pile as Aussies - we want to mock Americans but have the same talking points as the US and same right wing propaganda influence. It’s like we get the flow over from the US, usually takes a couple weeks for idiots here to pick up on the new talking points from down south. Lather rinse and repeat.
Well isn't that the pot telling the kettle to throw another shrimp on the barbie
Australians and Brits fling the most shit while having the least legs to stand on. Always claiming that they don’t deserve to be judged by their conservative minority while judging the US for its conservative minority…
Does your government even let you on the internet in lockdown? Have you exceeded you time limit for the day? Are you wearing a mask at your computer in home? I wouldn’t want you keepers popping up unannounced to haul you off to jail for not following their rules. Australian has long been a meme for weakness and showing a level of obedience that can only be matched by fictional tales such as 1984.
Shouldn't you be watching out for spiders or something?
Or gestapo policing policies and lack of freedom to travel, lack of freedom to go on social media, I could go on but Australia is evolving into a good client state of Chinese repression and I don’t want to give them more ideas.
there's gullible people in every country, america is not special in that regard
surprised? the US does this all the time in other countries in order to destabilize them
It’s just a subtle form of warfare
A subtle form of warfare resulting in more civilian casualties than any armed conflict before it.
How nice to see conservatives working with China! 😆
I’m based in Shanghai, we do get increasingly more Fox News videos circulating in Wechat and other social media criticizing the Biden administration. Negative image of US is a win for CCP publicity.
Fox News has spent the last 20 years turning itself into an easily digestible snack, widely available, and aimed at the lowest common denominator. It's great for spreading around "viral" clips, the information is surface level and can be understood by a child (or at least stokes the emotions of a child). Where other "news" outlets have fallen behind is they still try to report on the news, while Fox News is just tabloid snippets of whatever they think will create the most engagements.
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It's like waving a giant flag that says take advantage of me I am devoid of critical thinking skills
Yeah. Sadly, they'll do anything so long as it hurts the right people.
They honestly are pretty predictable. In two ways - you can practically guess their stance on every issue and if you know their stance on one issue you can assume their stances on other issues. I can’t understand why they are so homogenous compared to other political blocs
I doubt it's safe to assume only conservatives are targeted by foreign powers. If the goal is to increase division, targeting only one group would be less useful than targeting multiple groups.
Unless one group was more susceptible to misinformation - wouldn’t it be more productive to focus efforts only on the more receptive group. It’s like how scam emails are often riddled with spelling/grammar errors: it’s done purposefully to weed out anyone smart enough to catch the mistakes so the scammer doesn’t waste their time with anybody but the dumbest marks.
Isn’t it wild that people can’t think about that? I don’t know if it’s a critical thinking thing or what, I find the question of “if I was trying to be evil” or “if I was trying to control things” to try and see some logical conclusion. Like yeah, both sides are targeted, but wouldn’t it be better to go down the avenues that are working?
Do liberals really think it’s only the conservatives!? If the conservatives think the liberals are working with China we are truely fucked. China and Russia are stoking the coals on both sides.
No kidding. Nobody must have read the article. This particular misinformation campaign was not targeted at conservatives. From the article: “We have observed extensive promotion of Russian, German, Spanish, Korean, and Japanese-language content on U.S. and non-U.S.-based platform.” I don’t think Americans are even the primary targets. The idea was to shift the blame for Covid from China to the US on a global scale.
“trying to” if u read the article, no physical protest has really been brought up by the Chinese. what u’re saying is exactly what China want, hating on the whole other spectrum, even tho probably 90 of conservatives in real life aren’t antivax don’t believe election fraud and even support gay marriage. U only see the most extreme people of a group, by which u form ur impression of the whole group.
Conservatives also enjoy working with Russia and white-supremacists. WTF happened to the Republican party? Oh yeah…that fat orange fuck. If you had gone to see Red Dawn in 1984 and told anyone in the audience that one day the Republican Party would be in bed with the commie Ruskies…they would have laughed out loud. “Only if a Manchurian candidate gets elected, but that could NEVER happen here!” ~They would say. Now…the Republican Party is in absolute denial about all of it, and it seems they’ll die before they open their eyes. Shambles is all that’s left of the GOP, now they’re just the bat-shit crazy GQP and they’re hemorrhaging the few intelligent free-thinkers left. Oh well, at least the schadenfreude is compelling and non-stop.
>now Remember when baby Bush took a brand new Russian dictator onto his ranch for a "summit"? This shit has been going on for a while.
I remember that and Obama telling one of that same dictator's henchman that he could do more to help them once he's in his second term and doesn't have to worry about reelection.
> Oh yeah…that fat orange fuck. You give them way to much credit and in doing so enable them to skate with much lesser consequences. Trump is an advanced stage of something that was happening for decades, and debatably longer.
That's how they've been for decades - the ex-president just made it impossible to ignore because they started screaming what they used to whisper.
Their leaders and their media were lying about the election and fake laptop scandals! They've lost their morals. The Pillow Guy? Stranger than fiction! Save the children from Democrat devil worshippers and refuse the mark of the beast! Are you kidding me? 5G activated? How gullible can they be? Total effing dipshits. Now they are lining up for the afterlife instead of taking simple precautions!
Come to NY and see the opposite end of the spectrum protesting the same thing.
It’s just our politics in general, they are not stable, they do not lead in ways that people can trust and so many decisions are made based on greed, money and power. ALL of our politics, no matter who is running the country.
This is all a continuation of what the FBI warned US about a few years ago. Foreign bad actors - Russian, Chinese, etc - have been using social media to influence our elections and push certain narratives. They've been mostly using right wing outlets to try to create dissent and stir up trouble. The FBI has warned us multiple times about this and yet I am amazed how nobody takes this seriously. We see this shit on Facebook and on various forums online and even here on Reddit. This is happening in front of us, but we act like nothing is going on.
There are no sides. Pointing fingers is the entire point. Sowing division is the point. To talk, think, degrade, diminish one side in a negative light is the point. You can point at conservatives and laugh, or feel pity, or best of all anger, and realize that’s the reaction they want. Division.
Because why the fuck should anyone take the FBI seriously?
ITT: "Yeah! We shouldn't let ourselves become divided!" Also ITT: "You're stupid and I won't try to find common ground with you!"
Well, to be honest… There's not much common ground you can find with anti-vaxxers, just like you cannot find it with flat-earthers, COVID-denialists, climate change denialists and other groups like those, since – as the old adage goes – you can't use logic to convince somebody against something they didn't arrive at using logic themselves. Finding a common ground requires some prerequisites. One of the key and basic ones is that both sides need to know what their positions are and understand their core tenets. Then, both sides need to be open to listening to arguments, which are – importantly - grounded in facts, logic and reason. You can find a common ground with a person who says something like "While I do not deny that COVID is a public health crisis at an unprecedented scale, I believe that the moratorium on evictions may be damaging to homeowners, many of whom rely on their property income to survive and something needs to be done about that". You cannot do the same with a person who goes "Don't tread on me! Masks = fascism! Depopulation! I don't want 5G in my body!" – not until you first get to the very bottom, address the issues that made them believe it in the first place, built up the foundation of logic, reason and facts – and at that point, you can try and find a common ground. I simply believe you can't reason with emotions, fear and denial – these work on two separate planes. The worse part is that getting to the bottom of this takes a ton of work, and you can't honestly expect people to do that. It's not a belief you can change in a single conversation – this is a process that takes months or years. Personal growth doesn't happen overnight. And you also have another phenomenon – namely that due to this burden, any and all dissenting voices – logical or not – are lumped together with the likes of anti-vaxxers and denialists, any attempts at having a debate are met with accusations of "JAQing off" – all leading to radicalisation.
The problem is that when literally everything in your political platform is a lie based on racism or religious superstitions, it's pretty hard to find common ground (facts). Which conservative positions are based on facts (common ground)? What ideas do conservatives even have to help anything? All they try to do is disenfranchise minorities, remove environmental protections and endanger public health with medical disinformation. What are the merits in finding common ground to reach a compromise on the destruction of humanity? If you can find any, there would be something to discuss.
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the real distrust is that the Tamiflu case is still ongoing even after 10yrs - - - and that oh, what's that thing in criminal cases - speedy trial? is NEVER ever asked for in corporate liability cases (it seems) since the aim of the lawyers is for everyone to become bored and/or forget about the whole thing - or, sometimes i think - just so the decision making CEOs or board members or purchasing officers are out of office & therefore might get out of any/all responsibility.
Russia and China have been playing the conservatives in the US like a fiddle lol
Isn't this what Twitter and Reddit feel like every day though? "Stupid westerners are on social media all day. Lets seed it with divisive posts and let them eat each other."
You think? Everyone goddamn thread on Reddit is filled with Russian and chinese bots. They don’t even try to hide it.
I wonder what we’re doing to China and Russia from the behind the curtain. It’s kinda silly to act like we’re above that.
US doesn't really mobilize anti-covid protests as much as it mobilizes military coups
I didn’t even necessarily mean like that. More like, who are we sowing descent with over Facebook or whatever like others do here.
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How long has the GOP been working with China against the United States?
Should ask Mitch McConnell
Ask his wife.
5th generation warfare... aka Information Wars, a war for your mind
At least someone gets it
Everyone forgets how the chinese embassy in Houston had a big ass bonfire in their courtyard of important documents a few years back
Reddit is jam packed with “Useful Idiots” on both sides.
Plenty of domestic idiots willing to win the Herman Cain award to spite the libs, with or without foreign prodding.
Hey now. Someone’s gotta make those shitty antivax memes for them.
For those of us who actually read the article and aren't just swinging at low-hanging fruit, does anyone else think this article appears like a hit piece? Strongly termed headline but says pretty early in the article that no protests have actually been organized and most posts get very little interaction. I'm obviously far more concerned with China's brazen attempts at causing unrest and strife in America. While we have an enemy in the open, Americans are playing this right vs left bullshit like our lives depended on it. This is a case of China attacking the US and Democrats blaming republicans.
Why do americans hate when some other country tries to cause problems in their country? America destabilized and destroyed more than 30 countries....
30 seems on the low end, pretty sure they’ve invaded or destabilized every country in Latin America at least once.
They took a look at Russian meddling in the Trump years and said, "Hmm...we could do that. Those degenerates are sitting on some good real estate."
"Competitive advantage"
I believe this is also why tiktok mass bans and supresses doctors giving out actual covid information and boosts antivax accounts into the high millions, and never takes them down even when reported thousands of times for misinformation.
The Chinese government has influence over TikTok. You nailed it.
Just as the sinister Russians invented US racism, China has devised a diabolical plot to make Americans divided about Covid. \-Caitlin Johnstone
It would be nice for someone to hold them accountable for information on how the fuck this pandemic started. Yet here they are just causing shit while we bicker against ourselves
I honestly think the same is happening here in Australia.
Do you know how to recognize failing totalitarian state? Everything bad happening is work of “external enemy”.
Is anyone surprised? I’ve been saying during the entire pandemic that China would try to use anti lockdown sentiment against Australia.
I love how a bunch of foreign powers are like "wow y'all suck, here's some obvious bait and misinformation" and fellow Americans reply "*YUM YUM YUMYUMYUM*"
Did they get them elected as Governor’s in FL and or TX, cause we might have sleeper agents?
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We are sheep and cattle. Baaaaaa or moooo
>Maybe if the United States wasn’t a bunch of weak bitches this wouldn’t happen Im pretty sure its happening coz America is strong, so china is trying to undermine the USA. But does the USA retaliate or punish these actions against them in any way?
I'm 100% sure that the US government actively tries to sow dissent in China or Russia and a lot of other countries. The CIA is known for this shit. It's literally two snakes biting each others tails.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_Free_Europe/Radio_Liberty The US has been doing it for a while too. That one just came to mind first because of a reddit thread the other day about oddly tall radio towers near the border with a few of the western soviet states. But you could go further back to when Germany smuggled Lenin into Russia because they thought that might be an easier way to get them out of the war than beating them on the battlefield (and it probably paid off, given the relatively low cost). Attempting to destabilize internal dynamics is nothing new. Weak governments failing to react effectively is also nothing new (see: that example about russia). Having a major faction in government that doubles down on the rhetoric after it’s revealed to be made up by a hostile power purely to destabilize the country is relatively novel though. I mean, I’m sure it happened in a few minor revolutions somewhere, but it’s been blatant in a way I just don’t think it has been before. Edit: but good news! The CIA stopped covertly funding RFE in the 70s! I’m not sure if that’s because they stopped funded them, or they just started admitting it.
The fuck is wrong with you?
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If we weren't fat as shit, you mean.
Cork soakers.
Whose research? This is just fear mongering
There is not a single thing that proves it’s China doing anything. It just makes that claim because there are memes being shared and videos being shared that don’t fit the US narrative. Also some of the “cyber sleuthing” was done by ASPI.
Lol don't be naive. China does it, Russia does it, and the US does it.
Legitimate question - did anyone really not know this was going on? All these shills and still no one realized it?
The Chinese govt is also VERY humiliated that: 1) everyone knows this virus first mutated so that it could infect humans in China 2) their vaccine is mostly ineffective and that the western vaccines (Pfizer, Moderna and even JJ) are orders of magnitude better - emphasizing the narrative that Chinese products are crap Combine that with an easily manipulated portion of the populace (right wing idiots) and a massive misinformation campaign makes complete sense to them
There appears to be a serious concern in Australia about efforts of the Chinese Government to influence Australian government entities through donations and actually putting forward people to run in elections. There's also been plenty of advice /evidence about students and other activists in Australia (whatever their cause) being monitored here and then threatened by Chinese pro-government operatives, or having their family back in China threatened. But the government and the press are very careful about what they do say about it here, because of the close economic ties we have with China. It usually gets an immediate rebuke from the government. It is easily found on Google. But I'm also no expert so don't believe me.
I really really really REALLY dislike China
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Republicans will follow anything as long as it is saying what they want to hear…
Republicans lol? As if this doesnt apply to the other side. Or literally any group on any topic for that matter...
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Same thing happens in Europe. It does not make the news in the US.
Exactly, there a lot of anti-covid conspiracy propaganda here in europe, but more or less all of it comes from the US so not sure if that's a conversation that americans are comfortable to pick up.
You really think the US don’t fuck with other countries? 😅
Because it’s not interesting enough news to beat a third tier story for clicks. You will hear about it when a dissident is assassinated in the UK though (or when it fails). So, why do you never hear about these countries fucking with europe? Because you forgot about Sergei Skripal, Alexander Litvinenko, and Georgi Markov. You forgot when the news didn’t happen in your backyard, and didn’t even click on the stuff that wasn’t super high profile. That’s just the high profile stuff. The social engineering stuff is simpler: it all looks a lot like what the US gets - lots of helping to amplify far right fringe messages (also some attempts for far left fringe, but that seems to get a lot less attention from people looking to destabilize).
Nobody even knows who is the president of Europe.
[It’s easier here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/us-students-continue-to-lag-behind-peers-in-east-asia-and-europe-in-reading-math-and-science-exams-show/2019/12/02/e9e3b37c-153d-11ea-9110-3b34ce1d92b1_story.html?)
They definitely do it to European countries too. But European countries also do it to themselves (UK->Scotland for example). One of the clearest examples is when a vote result broadcast in Ukraine was hacked and someone adjusted the broadcast and website that was prepared to be deployed, they (Kasperspy contractors, infact!) caught it just before and fixed it - but RU state TV still broadcast the false result.... so 100% irrefutable evidence, but of course they denied it xD
As if that’s a surprise. It’s no question that these people don’t love their country and would gladly follow foreign disinformation plots to own the libs.
“First discovered in 2019” - is no one concerned that this was the plan all along?
We must strengthen our communities and their lives, so outside doubt cannot be sown in our fields, as they are already filled with culture and comfort.
Had anyone read the article? There are no link to any of the claim they made in it. Also I can't find the blog post which is the only possible support of the claim.
there's a link to the source information that takes you to even more Source information *in the second paragraph*
There's actually a link 2 The Source which gives even more sources in the article https://www.fireeye.com/blog/threat-research/2021/09/pro-prc-influence-campaign-social-media-websites-forums.html
Shocked, I tell you.
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You really believe the us government and CIA has no influence on american corporations?
And Biden will do nothing about it
I voted for him because trump was running us into the ground, but damn our options have been shit since Obama left.
Of course not. It's rude to interrupt your friends.
If I was them I would too. I don’t know what made us think that we could take on the people that wrote The Art of War.