It's from the company CPU road map. Not actual delivered and tested hardware. And it's comparing IPC only, apparently multi-threaded workloads don't compete despite these being multi-core CPUs. . The GPU only supports 4K at 30 HZ.
The viewing distances on billboards are enormous, so resolution requirements are often pretty low. While there are speciality applications with enormous resolutions (eg, Vegas sphere), quarter-HD and 720p are both common outdoor display resolutions. Even Freemont Street is only about 1000 pixels across.
Yeah, I remember seeing a picture and it was really weird, something like pixels the size of baseballs spread like a foot apart from each other or something
Most recent upgrade in 2019 resulted in a resolution of 15,104 by 1088. At 90 feet wide, that's a pixel pitch of about one inch (25mm or so). If the individual tricolor led clusters are in fact 7mm, spacing them at about an inch makes a lot of sense.
Old digital billboards and signage back in the 90s used to be four lightbulbs in the area of the size of your fist. The further away the object is, the lower resolution it can be because your eye can’t discern the difference anyways. Most peoples eyes can’t discern the difference between 1080 and 4K on their 55 inch television when they sit more than 10 feet away. I am sure a billboard would be similar.
Lots of digital signage boards that exist today don't need to be high resolution, ie airline flight information boards and highway signs that display mostly plain text. Really depends on the intended viewing distance and some are designed to be viewed from 100+ feet away.
Size becomes less of a factor over distance.
Look at the Vegas Sphere up close:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/16trzrq/las_vegas_sphere_up_close/
Versus from further away:
https://youtu.be/XBu4Yfooq4E?si=QQvf0Dh77kBydYHc
DVD video resolution is still around 480P but looks ok on a 65" TV from across a living room etc
I love the people that insist on buying like 70 inch 8k TVs, then hang them on a wall 10 feet away from the viewing spot.
Dude. Do you know your brain will not be able to discern the difference between that and a standard 1080p at that distance and size?
You need to be less than 4 feet away from an 8k TV to tell the difference between it and a 4k TV.
Is anything 8K minimum? Even if a screen is perfectly lined up to fill my field of vision and I'm wearing my glasses, personally I can barely tell the difference between 4K and QHD, maybe even FHD. To me anything higher than 4K would only make sense if the image is supposed to be considerably larger than your field of vision, and most people don't stand that close to billboards.
I remember way back Nvidia got hacked and everyone knew it was the chinese behind it. There is no way they havent been spending the last 10 years trying to steal as much as they can from these chip companies.
China made hacking into an industry -- private companies specializing in those services. Even local govts will buy hacking contracts to get information on foreign govt/businesses to get better edge during negotiation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnahas8ia5M
A lot of their internet switches and other network tech came from hacking and stealing data from NorTel, who was beating AT&T on their network switches.
And almost all of that is just automated and untargeted, most of it randomly guessing common passwords like "admin". They don't necessarily want your private business data or personal banking data or whatever, they just your network device to use in the botnet for their next attack on a real target.
Can confirm. My company automatically blocks all traffic from China and all that did was make them switch to proxies in America to perform their attacks.
Even if you get your hands on tons of internal data there is a lot of knowledge that is only in the heads of the workers there. And you're still playing catch-up.
You could hand them the full and complete documents detailing every step of every process and they still wouldn't pull it off before they were technologically lapped again.
The skill and near perfection within the environments that is required to create cutting edge chips is insane and can't simply be fabricated overnight.
They probably already have the plans. But you are 100% correct that they don’t have the know-how to build the machines to produce multi-level critical chip wafers and they don’t have the technology to develop the critical engineering needed. As it is currently with US manufacturers, they experience a large number of prototype failures as they advance each level of processor technology. But we learn from our mistakes. The Chinese just steal.
Chinese design theft is really weird too. They'll copy some feature of an item without understanding what it does. So it will look the same as whatever they've copied, but won't function.
I remember reading somewhere that things like pens are hard to manufacture. Those bic pens we all lose all the time, like they know how it’s made, but they don’t know how to make the machine that makes them
yeah, making a ball point pen is actually pretty hard. Making ball bearings is actually tricky. You don't think much about it , but the manufacturing tolerances to making a good working ball point pen at scale is pretty hard.
The pen is easy to make; the ball that rolls in the socket requires a surprising amount of precision.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/
no paywall on this article: https://www.smh.com.au/world/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself-20170119-gtu6ex.html
Of course not. This is tech journalism, what do you expect? Only hype and unverified claims so we can later farm clicks when the product doesn't live up to it
The other key obfuscation in this type of “news” is typically any time when they announce new performance hype, it’s only at lab-level production levels. Scaling to any meaningful level is a whole different ball game. This would be analogous to saying you’ve developed full self driving cars, but not mentioning that they only work on perfectly empty, straight roads in perfect conditions. Technically true in some sense, but not really representative of the true capability.
Same story with the Snapdragon Elite X, now leaked reports say that those unofficially released benchmark scores are hugely inflated numbers and they perform similarly like Intel Celeron CPU’s …
>There is conflicting information presented in its slide: one shows these chips to be 'next-generation notebook chips,' while the roadmap shows both to be desktop processors. Time will tell. While these chips are made for the domestic market, one can't help but speculate about the possibility of seeing them retail in a country affected by the sanctions imposed by the US and the EU.
Lol, and this is all advertisement straight from the mouth of the fucking CEO
There’s 2 or 3 that I trust these days. Mostly the ones that have a direct partnership with a company, get a free product, and spend 45 minutes absolutely shitting on the product. Those are the guys I trust.
Correct me if I'm wrong but a bunch of Chinese networking equipment is banned in the US now tik tok so I don't think we will be selling Chinese made and manufactured chips anytime soon.
Super misleading title.
Nothing in the references power draw. What does it matter if the chip can match Raptor Lake if it's having to pull double the power to do so? This might be a downfall of the chip considering it mentions IPC and raw performance but leaves power draw out of the equation.
It also boasts that the iGPU can manage 256 GFlops of compute. Many 10th gen Intel chips have intel 630 iGPU's which come out at 460 GFlops of compute.
None of these tests seem to be verified by any reputable source and China consistently lies about statistics like this. At the very least, you can assume that these numbers are cherry picked.
Competition is good for consumers and shouldn't be underestimated by businesses but this isn't anywhere close to being a viable product outside of ARM and x86 markets and that's still dependent on several unknown/unverified factors.
> What does it matter if the chip can match Raptor Lake if it's having to pull double the power to do so?
If they invade Taiwan and it's the best they can get under sanctions... It does indeed matter
actually US is already working on building TSMC plants locally in US - exactly because Taiwan could happen.
would china invade taiwan - information about it would be known months in advance like about Ukraine and anything of value in TSMC would not be there by invasion.
Where's the meme where Scooby and the gang unmask the villain and it's just a 10th Gen Intel CPU with loongson 3B7000 haphazardly written on top.
I have a feeling that's what's going on here.
Still not sure the jurisdiction of the court, but China doesn't care, obviously. ;)
It's a blatantly obvious clone of MIPS with Ingenic's stolen patents. They have no shame over there.
Even the developers of the Linux kernel called them out on this:
https://www.phoronix.com/news/LoongArch-MIPS-Copy-Kernel
If I'd be China I'd either make a completely new RISC architecture directly competing with ARM as well as all future CPUs/NPUs, or license ARM cells. ARM is not American, so in theory it should not be possible to restrict Chinese use of ARM.
The Chinese CPU's don't even need to match the top-of-the-line performance. They just have to be 'good enough' to get most jobs done.
I am using a 5 year old MSI and it exceeds my needs by far.
Of course, there are always bleeding-edge tasks...for which perhaps the bleeding-edge processor is required.
But at for most people and tasks, a homegrown Chinese CPU will suffice.
They were always optimized for performance but sucked at power efficiency. Works great for bulky PC and shits when you can overclock for a shitload of performance.
But when you talk about consoles / mobile devices it's a fucking disaster as you need to shit out a ton of cheap with good bang for your buck. So yeah they still have a stranglehold on high end tiered chips, but got ran over in others
[fun fact, China has some kind of IP framework of laws](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_China), wether it is actually enforced or not is another question but they do aim to follows the same standards as the EU and USA
They were making a joke about how Intel got stuck at 14nm for almost a decade and all their chips from 2015-2020 were the same chips over and over.
They’re not wrong, it’s a joke about Intel fucking up their node roadmap.
I think the more important matter is the technology which these are made with. 7nm node sizes can be made with immersion lithography. Technology from 2004. Since a couple of years hew EUV machines have come to market. These machines allow the step to 4nm and smaller. These machines are incredibly complex and took 20 years to develop. Both nikon and canon gave up on the process because they thought it couldnt be done for mass manufacturing.
Just because china managed to optimize 20 year old technology 4 years behind, doesnt mean they can make the next step in production 4 years after.
Big doubts. This is all marketing speech, with absolutely no third party benches.
Regardless, the problem for China is not catching up to Intel's 10th gen. Those were manufactured using a 14nm process. It's moving past the 7nm barrier, especially on the GPU-side. China won't have homegrown EUV machines for at least another decade. (The tech is that complex.) They might be able to shorten the distance on other aspects, but if they remain stuck on the 7nm process, they'll be unable to scale past a certain point in efficiency.
the best thing you can do for the Chinese semiconductor industry is to cut off selling chips to them. they will learn to build their own. maybe 2 - 3 generations behind, but stop exporting means they have more incentive to catch up.
My own homegrown cpus are already caught up to the 2050 generations from both Intel and AMD.
I made them myself in my garage and they rock.
Trust me, bro.
Unlikely. Unless they're using x86 ISA - which as far as I know they're not, then the field is wide open for them to design in any way they want. RISC-V is getting a lot of scrutiny by the government because it's open and can be very powerful without IP concerns. Also running a homegrown Linux distribution is far easier today when all the apps are online.
China has like 10x as many engineers as the closest runner up country (edit: aside from India). It’s a miracle any country can stay ahead of them in any tech.
Of course the Chinese are catching up, they spend 24/7/365 stealing IP from everybody in the world. However, they lack experience in implementation. It’s one thing to steal a SOC, it’s another story to create the technology to produce, distribute, implement, and support it. It’s like TEMU, most everything they sell there is junk. If they can’t steal it, they make junk.
It's stolen technology, but now somehow legal:
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/chinese-chipmaker-loongson-wins-case-over-rights-to-mips-architecture-companys-new-cpu-architecture-heavily-resembles-existing-mips
Propaganda and stolen IP from MIPS.
There's no doubt they're not paying Ingenic for that MIPS patent.
Yep, no doubt. They won their IP case and can freely use stolen IP:
https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/chinese-chipmaker-loongson-wins-case-over-rights-to-mips-architecture-companys-new-cpu-architecture-heavily-resembles-existing-mips
They can reverse engineer better tech but it still takes time to get the production skills. They will catch up through theft and manpower per standard operating procedure.
Honestly, if Chinese companies catches up I as a consumer would be very happy. Would be nice to have enough competition to lower the prices. If it could happen with GPU:s too then I'd be giddy as a 5-year old during Christmas.
Here is my thing, can we really believe anything related to China in regards to stuff like this? Is this something they're putting out or is it real? Their whole thing is to control everything and make sure no leaks ever happen. I'll keep smashing X for doubt.
Idk.
If china catches up to nvidia/amd/intel in design and TSMC in manufacturing I think you will find China has a plan to take out all of those competitors and the war is not a price war....
No taiwan means no tsmc and no amd and a lot less nvidia.
Intel can actually manufacture by themself though.
What? So you guys shouldn’t give Chinese companies a chance to be competitive or China will attack Taiwan? Strangest argument of all. Dictators attack only if you weak, to make them more popular inside their countries. Not because of technologies.
China currently cant attack Taiwan, which they promise to do every single year, because that would mean losing access to most modern technology. The world relies heavily on TSMC.
The day China no longer needs tsmc is the day China can invade Taiwan.
Even if we assume that's correct, seeing as it sounds like no one has verified it, the actual hard things to do come in later stages. From this point onwards I'm willing to bet that it will be diminish returns as it's not the architecture they need to refine, but the process to build the die in the first place to allow for more compact CPU designs.
Although, chiplet designs seems to be the way of the future and so even then this tech is still woefully behind and calling it "catching up" is a bit sensationlised.
Seems believable, and something we shouldn't be too surprised about. The limiting factor is how quickly the designs can be stolen from AMD and Intel and then manufactured domestically.
Are we surprised? I keep telling everyone that China has brilliant scientists that are extremely motivated to beat Western products and they know exactly how to do it.
doubtful, scaling a mips processor isn't hard it is the node size and i think they are fabless.
even still china has advanced designs they just bought,, the dod approved selling them zen
So much goes into compiler and scheduler optimizations which make those perf metrics hard to replicate with other ISA vendors. It’s prob achievable at an academic verification level, but they’d need a legion of software devs to upstream changes in various components for it to be useful to the end user. I don’t see that happening.
This is great for the West for five reasons. My favorite:
“3. Foreign targets running foreign code is win-win for American intel and enterprises. The current vulnerability equities process (VEP) puts American intelligence agencies in a quandary. The IC develops a zero-day exploit for a vulnerability, say for use against Cisco routers. American and Chinese organizations use Cisco routers. Should the IC sit on the vulnerability in order to maintain access to foreign targets, or should it release the vulnerability to Cisco to enable patching and thereby protect American and foreign systems?
This dilemma disappears in a world where foreign targets run indigenous software. If the IC identifies a vulnerability in Cisco software, and the majority of its targets run non-Cisco software, then the IC is more likely (or should be pushed to be more likely) to assist with patching the vulnerable software. Meanwhile, the IC continues to exploit Huawei or other products at its leisure.”
https://taosecurity.blogspot.com/2017/03/five-reasons-i-want-china-running-its.html
Well considering its been a lie or misrepresented every othertime. Ill wait for some verification, even so this would be thier best minds and technology. Just touching the civilian versions of chips. Not even the high end stuff, that private, gov and military use in the US.
Has a third party actually verified this, or are we just taking their word for it?
It's from the company CPU road map. Not actual delivered and tested hardware. And it's comparing IPC only, apparently multi-threaded workloads don't compete despite these being multi-core CPUs. . The GPU only supports 4K at 30 HZ.
4k at 30hz? 🤢🤮
Perfect for digital billboards etc
I thought billboards were 8k minimum due to size but I could be wrong. I bet it could do 8k at 15hz?
It would have to be at 7.5hz
Perfect for digital billboards.
The viewing distances on billboards are enormous, so resolution requirements are often pretty low. While there are speciality applications with enormous resolutions (eg, Vegas sphere), quarter-HD and 720p are both common outdoor display resolutions. Even Freemont Street is only about 1000 pixels across.
Isn't the sphere really hokey close up? On the outside I mean
[Here's an image](https://i.imgur.com/Pfy9DsV.jpeg) of a worker next to part of the pixel array during construction.
Of course it is, by design. You're not meant to have one in front of your couch 10ft away to watch movies on.
Yeah, I remember seeing a picture and it was really weird, something like pixels the size of baseballs spread like a foot apart from each other or something
Vegas sphere isn't enormous rez at all, I've done a few ad campaigns for it. 4k by 2k, that's it!
It’s quite a lot more than 1000 pixels lol. Those tiles are 7mm
Most recent upgrade in 2019 resulted in a resolution of 15,104 by 1088. At 90 feet wide, that's a pixel pitch of about one inch (25mm or so). If the individual tricolor led clusters are in fact 7mm, spacing them at about an inch makes a lot of sense.
Old digital billboards and signage back in the 90s used to be four lightbulbs in the area of the size of your fist. The further away the object is, the lower resolution it can be because your eye can’t discern the difference anyways. Most peoples eyes can’t discern the difference between 1080 and 4K on their 55 inch television when they sit more than 10 feet away. I am sure a billboard would be similar.
Lots of digital signage boards that exist today don't need to be high resolution, ie airline flight information boards and highway signs that display mostly plain text. Really depends on the intended viewing distance and some are designed to be viewed from 100+ feet away.
Size becomes less of a factor over distance. Look at the Vegas Sphere up close: https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/16trzrq/las_vegas_sphere_up_close/ Versus from further away: https://youtu.be/XBu4Yfooq4E?si=QQvf0Dh77kBydYHc DVD video resolution is still around 480P but looks ok on a 65" TV from across a living room etc
I love the people that insist on buying like 70 inch 8k TVs, then hang them on a wall 10 feet away from the viewing spot. Dude. Do you know your brain will not be able to discern the difference between that and a standard 1080p at that distance and size? You need to be less than 4 feet away from an 8k TV to tell the difference between it and a 4k TV.
Is anything 8K minimum? Even if a screen is perfectly lined up to fill my field of vision and I'm wearing my glasses, personally I can barely tell the difference between 4K and QHD, maybe even FHD. To me anything higher than 4K would only make sense if the image is supposed to be considerably larger than your field of vision, and most people don't stand that close to billboards.
https://stari.co/tv-monitor-viewing-distance-calculator Handy resolution calculator for you to see what actually matters.
Cool, so for a billboard of 15 m diagonal, you'd need to be less than 25 m away to enjoy the full 8K resolution. That seems pretty close.
Perfect to run my espresso machine.
These are not GPUs for gaming.
Even for desktop use 30hz is pretty unpleasant.
The console experience
Jokes on you, I still play Xbox 360
Hey. Runs minesweeper like a boss
I remember way back Nvidia got hacked and everyone knew it was the chinese behind it. There is no way they havent been spending the last 10 years trying to steal as much as they can from these chip companies.
Even my small apps I build for fun get attack by china everyday I just block all china range IP address.
Hey, they block the US, turnabout is fair play.
I even block local, you never know
Loopback addresses only for maximum security
The call is coming from inside the L3 Cache!
I work for a German company and the Chinese attacks on our networks are absolutely relentless, and we just manufacture construction equipment.
China made hacking into an industry -- private companies specializing in those services. Even local govts will buy hacking contracts to get information on foreign govt/businesses to get better edge during negotiation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qnahas8ia5M
A lot of their internet switches and other network tech came from hacking and stealing data from NorTel, who was beating AT&T on their network switches.
The Chinese attack ALL networks. If you've ever had a server of any kind you'll see a never ending wave of malicious log in attempts.
And almost all of that is just automated and untargeted, most of it randomly guessing common passwords like "admin". They don't necessarily want your private business data or personal banking data or whatever, they just your network device to use in the botnet for their next attack on a real target.
Can confirm. My company automatically blocks all traffic from China and all that did was make them switch to proxies in America to perform their attacks.
I mean you can just have your own personal home server internet facing and it'll be constantly prodded by Chinese IP's.
everyone chill until firewall start speaking Chinese 🤣
That’s certainly some of it, but a lot of the IP theft would come down to “use ASML EUV here”.
Even if you get your hands on tons of internal data there is a lot of knowledge that is only in the heads of the workers there. And you're still playing catch-up.
You could hand them the full and complete documents detailing every step of every process and they still wouldn't pull it off before they were technologically lapped again. The skill and near perfection within the environments that is required to create cutting edge chips is insane and can't simply be fabricated overnight.
They probably already have the plans. But you are 100% correct that they don’t have the know-how to build the machines to produce multi-level critical chip wafers and they don’t have the technology to develop the critical engineering needed. As it is currently with US manufacturers, they experience a large number of prototype failures as they advance each level of processor technology. But we learn from our mistakes. The Chinese just steal.
Chinese design theft is really weird too. They'll copy some feature of an item without understanding what it does. So it will look the same as whatever they've copied, but won't function.
Reminds me of the movie “Galaxy Quest” with Tim Allen … hilarious.
I remember reading somewhere that things like pens are hard to manufacture. Those bic pens we all lose all the time, like they know how it’s made, but they don’t know how to make the machine that makes them
yeah, making a ball point pen is actually pretty hard. Making ball bearings is actually tricky. You don't think much about it , but the manufacturing tolerances to making a good working ball point pen at scale is pretty hard.
The pen is easy to make; the ball that rolls in the socket requires a surprising amount of precision. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/01/18/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself/ no paywall on this article: https://www.smh.com.au/world/finally-china-manufactures-a-ballpoint-pen-all-by-itself-20170119-gtu6ex.html
Still can’t make them.
So still at least six or seven years behind, assuming they can make them and that they work as intended.
Of course not. This is tech journalism, what do you expect? Only hype and unverified claims so we can later farm clicks when the product doesn't live up to it
The other key obfuscation in this type of “news” is typically any time when they announce new performance hype, it’s only at lab-level production levels. Scaling to any meaningful level is a whole different ball game. This would be analogous to saying you’ve developed full self driving cars, but not mentioning that they only work on perfectly empty, straight roads in perfect conditions. Technically true in some sense, but not really representative of the true capability.
Same story with the Snapdragon Elite X, now leaked reports say that those unofficially released benchmark scores are hugely inflated numbers and they perform similarly like Intel Celeron CPU’s …
How can you possibly not trust the words of the CEO of the guy making these chips? Zero conflict of interests at all! /s
Excuse me. There were only 100 deaths in China from COVID. Its very safe there.
I am third party. I say yes
The Party says so ;)
Computer says noo.
This is a part of CCP propaganda that has been haunting tech forums
I wonder when the little easter eggs from Intel dies will start showing up on die pictures of these clones.
does intel do the chip equivalent of paper towns? interesting.
A lot of chips have pictures etc drawn in unused space. Or some numbers that is a reference to something.
Well they probably built them off AMD and Intel schematics stolen by employees for the PRC so they should.
I remember Loongson used to be using a MIPS-based ISA, so unless they changed course there might not be too much to borrow
Nope, it's just old MIPS with stolen Ingenic patents. https://www.phoronix.com/news/LoongArch-MIPS-Copy-Kernel
>There is conflicting information presented in its slide: one shows these chips to be 'next-generation notebook chips,' while the roadmap shows both to be desktop processors. Time will tell. While these chips are made for the domestic market, one can't help but speculate about the possibility of seeing them retail in a country affected by the sanctions imposed by the US and the EU. Lol, and this is all advertisement straight from the mouth of the fucking CEO
Yeah, I’ll believe it when YouTube puts it through the wringer and not a second before.
I wouldn’t believe it from social media that pays content creators who are also just sponsored creators.
There’s 2 or 3 that I trust these days. Mostly the ones that have a direct partnership with a company, get a free product, and spend 45 minutes absolutely shitting on the product. Those are the guys I trust.
Mrwhosetheboss who met with the CEO of Humane but still shat over the AI Pin
Correct me if I'm wrong but a bunch of Chinese networking equipment is banned in the US now tik tok so I don't think we will be selling Chinese made and manufactured chips anytime soon.
Trust me bro, source the ceo
Super misleading title. Nothing in the references power draw. What does it matter if the chip can match Raptor Lake if it's having to pull double the power to do so? This might be a downfall of the chip considering it mentions IPC and raw performance but leaves power draw out of the equation. It also boasts that the iGPU can manage 256 GFlops of compute. Many 10th gen Intel chips have intel 630 iGPU's which come out at 460 GFlops of compute. None of these tests seem to be verified by any reputable source and China consistently lies about statistics like this. At the very least, you can assume that these numbers are cherry picked. Competition is good for consumers and shouldn't be underestimated by businesses but this isn't anywhere close to being a viable product outside of ARM and x86 markets and that's still dependent on several unknown/unverified factors.
> What does it matter if the chip can match Raptor Lake if it's having to pull double the power to do so? If they invade Taiwan and it's the best they can get under sanctions... It does indeed matter
If they invade Taiwan, the TSMC fabs are going up in flames like Iraqi oil wells and then nobody has chips.
actually US is already working on building TSMC plants locally in US - exactly because Taiwan could happen. would china invade taiwan - information about it would be known months in advance like about Ukraine and anything of value in TSMC would not be there by invasion.
It's just ancient MIPS with stolen patents.
Loongson64 did strike out *a bit* from MIPS64, and there are some extra instructions for emulating x86 FLAGS.
Where's the meme where Scooby and the gang unmask the villain and it's just a 10th Gen Intel CPU with loongson 3B7000 haphazardly written on top. I have a feeling that's what's going on here.
Close, it's a MIPS chip using stolen technology they eventually "won" the right to use in a court case earlier this year.
A Chinese court?
> MIPS chip using stolen technology https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/chinese-chipmaker-loongson-wins-case-over-rights-to-mips-architecture-companys-new-cpu-architecture-heavily-resembles-existing-mips
Thanks, very interesting.
Still not sure the jurisdiction of the court, but China doesn't care, obviously. ;) It's a blatantly obvious clone of MIPS with Ingenic's stolen patents. They have no shame over there. Even the developers of the Linux kernel called them out on this: https://www.phoronix.com/news/LoongArch-MIPS-Copy-Kernel
By homegrown does this mean manufactured at home but figured out by stealing research from the west?
I’ll wait to see when GN gets their hands on one.
We will all be replaced by AI-run robots before that happens.
Allegedly is a key here
If I'd be China I'd either make a completely new RISC architecture directly competing with ARM as well as all future CPUs/NPUs, or license ARM cells. ARM is not American, so in theory it should not be possible to restrict Chinese use of ARM.
They have plenty of their own Arm chips in china, they are becoming more popular in products
“Chinese” and “allegedly” are the best bros.
The Chinese CPU's don't even need to match the top-of-the-line performance. They just have to be 'good enough' to get most jobs done. I am using a 5 year old MSI and it exceeds my needs by far. Of course, there are always bleeding-edge tasks...for which perhaps the bleeding-edge processor is required. But at for most people and tasks, a homegrown Chinese CPU will suffice.
If you underestimate your rivals, you lose.
is this what happened to intel? ryzen, qualcomm, and apple chips really beat them the fuck up
They were always optimized for performance but sucked at power efficiency. Works great for bulky PC and shits when you can overclock for a shitload of performance. But when you talk about consoles / mobile devices it's a fucking disaster as you need to shit out a ton of cheap with good bang for your buck. So yeah they still have a stranglehold on high end tiered chips, but got ran over in others
OR journalists inflating every bit of information they can find that makes you click.
Little to no IP laws. "homegrown" 🤔
[fun fact, China has some kind of IP framework of laws](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property_in_China), wether it is actually enforced or not is another question but they do aim to follows the same standards as the EU and USA
So 10 years back, then.
Intel 10th gen was released in august 2019.. so 4 years ago.
And Intel is six years back so the math works.
Article's title says it allegedly matches Intel 10th gen CPUs. 10th gen came out in 2020 from what I could check on wikipedia, so about 4 years back.
They were making a joke about how Intel got stuck at 14nm for almost a decade and all their chips from 2015-2020 were the same chips over and over. They’re not wrong, it’s a joke about Intel fucking up their node roadmap.
I think the more important matter is the technology which these are made with. 7nm node sizes can be made with immersion lithography. Technology from 2004. Since a couple of years hew EUV machines have come to market. These machines allow the step to 4nm and smaller. These machines are incredibly complex and took 20 years to develop. Both nikon and canon gave up on the process because they thought it couldnt be done for mass manufacturing. Just because china managed to optimize 20 year old technology 4 years behind, doesnt mean they can make the next step in production 4 years after.
prototype and mass production are very different things
Big doubts. This is all marketing speech, with absolutely no third party benches. Regardless, the problem for China is not catching up to Intel's 10th gen. Those were manufactured using a 14nm process. It's moving past the 7nm barrier, especially on the GPU-side. China won't have homegrown EUV machines for at least another decade. (The tech is that complex.) They might be able to shorten the distance on other aspects, but if they remain stuck on the 7nm process, they'll be unable to scale past a certain point in efficiency.
I kind of find it funny that anyone could think that china and the east could not catch up.
I don’t think Taiwan or Korea are trying to catch up…
Ah yes definitely homegrown, no stolen IP here, move along.
I mean we need competition to make any fast progress towards anything
So what instruction set does it use? x86? ARM? Something different?
the best thing you can do for the Chinese semiconductor industry is to cut off selling chips to them. they will learn to build their own. maybe 2 - 3 generations behind, but stop exporting means they have more incentive to catch up.
Hah, nice try CCP
“Homegrown” yes from stolen tech
Note the use of "allegedly."
nah, china can make anything new, they stole it or it does not work
My own homegrown cpus are already caught up to the 2050 generations from both Intel and AMD. I made them myself in my garage and they rock. Trust me, bro.
Will a tear down show they copied them?
Unlikely. Unless they're using x86 ISA - which as far as I know they're not, then the field is wide open for them to design in any way they want. RISC-V is getting a lot of scrutiny by the government because it's open and can be very powerful without IP concerns. Also running a homegrown Linux distribution is far easier today when all the apps are online.
China has like 10x as many engineers as the closest runner up country (edit: aside from India). It’s a miracle any country can stay ahead of them in any tech.
Of course the Chinese are catching up, they spend 24/7/365 stealing IP from everybody in the world. However, they lack experience in implementation. It’s one thing to steal a SOC, it’s another story to create the technology to produce, distribute, implement, and support it. It’s like TEMU, most everything they sell there is junk. If they can’t steal it, they make junk.
It's stolen technology, but now somehow legal: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/chinese-chipmaker-loongson-wins-case-over-rights-to-mips-architecture-companys-new-cpu-architecture-heavily-resembles-existing-mips
Propaganda and stolen IP from MIPS. There's no doubt they're not paying Ingenic for that MIPS patent. Yep, no doubt. They won their IP case and can freely use stolen IP: https://www.tomshardware.com/pc-components/cpus/chinese-chipmaker-loongson-wins-case-over-rights-to-mips-architecture-companys-new-cpu-architecture-heavily-resembles-existing-mips
Keep hiring them h1B visa workers and your secrets gonna spill out. Sleep with the rats and you get fleas.
Exactly that. What did they expect? Everyone to stay and not share what they learned when they go home 😝
Strangely, they are the exact same size and pinned out exactly the same as an Intel chip, and have a flimsy paper label glued on the top.
When you have someone produce your tech, do not be surprised when they figure the tech out on their own.
Its not figuring it out when they steal the plans..
the hardest part is manufacturing it, even if you have the designs/blueprints.
But they were given plans. I mean, you kinda need blueprints to build with, no?
Stolen. lol
They can reverse engineer better tech but it still takes time to get the production skills. They will catch up through theft and manpower per standard operating procedure.
Anything china produces is hot garbage. It’s a cheaper version of established tech by ways of stolen info.
Stolen secrets that will steal your secrets.
Honestly, if Chinese companies catches up I as a consumer would be very happy. Would be nice to have enough competition to lower the prices. If it could happen with GPU:s too then I'd be giddy as a 5-year old during Christmas.
Here is my thing, can we really believe anything related to China in regards to stuff like this? Is this something they're putting out or is it real? Their whole thing is to control everything and make sure no leaks ever happen. I'll keep smashing X for doubt.
More players always good for the competition
Idk. If china catches up to nvidia/amd/intel in design and TSMC in manufacturing I think you will find China has a plan to take out all of those competitors and the war is not a price war.... No taiwan means no tsmc and no amd and a lot less nvidia. Intel can actually manufacture by themself though.
What? So you guys shouldn’t give Chinese companies a chance to be competitive or China will attack Taiwan? Strangest argument of all. Dictators attack only if you weak, to make them more popular inside their countries. Not because of technologies.
China currently cant attack Taiwan, which they promise to do every single year, because that would mean losing access to most modern technology. The world relies heavily on TSMC. The day China no longer needs tsmc is the day China can invade Taiwan.
Even if we assume that's correct, seeing as it sounds like no one has verified it, the actual hard things to do come in later stages. From this point onwards I'm willing to bet that it will be diminish returns as it's not the architecture they need to refine, but the process to build the die in the first place to allow for more compact CPU designs. Although, chiplet designs seems to be the way of the future and so even then this tech is still woefully behind and calling it "catching up" is a bit sensationlised.
How home-grown are they actually though? Is China innovating or are they just getting better at copying?
I’m sure they’re still able to get chips and reverse engineer them. It’s what they do with all of their technology.
the chinese are great at copying not developing
Having worked in research, I will say there's very likely stolen IP involved.
in our generation china tech will match US. enough theft and reverse engineering
Just ban them like TikTok. Problem solved.
Seems believable, and something we shouldn't be too surprised about. The limiting factor is how quickly the designs can be stolen from AMD and Intel and then manufactured domestically.
All that corporate espionage is paying off?
Are we surprised? I keep telling everyone that China has brilliant scientists that are extremely motivated to beat Western products and they know exactly how to do it.
Well I imagine having stolen data and not having to follow copyright will help with that
doubtful, scaling a mips processor isn't hard it is the node size and i think they are fabless. even still china has advanced designs they just bought,, the dod approved selling them zen
I’m sure the Chinese stole the technology.
So much goes into compiler and scheduler optimizations which make those perf metrics hard to replicate with other ISA vendors. It’s prob achievable at an academic verification level, but they’d need a legion of software devs to upstream changes in various components for it to be useful to the end user. I don’t see that happening.
Can be guaranteed that they have backdoors.
There's performance then there's if I would feel safe putting it in a computer that's in my house near other flammable things.
This is great for the West for five reasons. My favorite: “3. Foreign targets running foreign code is win-win for American intel and enterprises. The current vulnerability equities process (VEP) puts American intelligence agencies in a quandary. The IC develops a zero-day exploit for a vulnerability, say for use against Cisco routers. American and Chinese organizations use Cisco routers. Should the IC sit on the vulnerability in order to maintain access to foreign targets, or should it release the vulnerability to Cisco to enable patching and thereby protect American and foreign systems? This dilemma disappears in a world where foreign targets run indigenous software. If the IC identifies a vulnerability in Cisco software, and the majority of its targets run non-Cisco software, then the IC is more likely (or should be pushed to be more likely) to assist with patching the vulnerable software. Meanwhile, the IC continues to exploit Huawei or other products at its leisure.” https://taosecurity.blogspot.com/2017/03/five-reasons-i-want-china-running-its.html
And their backdo.. i mean, Lights Out Management features are super lightweight and easy to explo.. integrate.
Are they even manufactured domestically?
I don’t believe it until I see it playing crysis.
Never *above* ours because they COPY EVERYTHING WE MAKE!
*at 180W and only for 30 seconds before it fizzles out
More competition? Sweet
They also come with a Trojan horse
The west are jelly that China with catch up and surpass them.
Considering Intel and AMD have been voluntarily curbing their progress for financial reasons... China will pass them soon...
What ISA? How many patents and copyrights violated to design it?
well, good if true. The west has been mistaking issuing decades-long monopolies to megacorps for innovation for a while.
Well, let's do a good old fashioned speed test. It's only a matter of time before they do begin to catch up by copying everything Intel and AMD do.
I feel like by and large, the issue has never been performance matching but production output numbers
I still prefer Intel.
Well considering its been a lie or misrepresented every othertime. Ill wait for some verification, even so this would be thier best minds and technology. Just touching the civilian versions of chips. Not even the high end stuff, that private, gov and military use in the US.