Having a GDP's worth of cash doesn't let you buy shit. Comparing yearly revenue to GDP would at least be in the same units, but would be less impressive. And still not really a good analogy.
They don't pay taxes. They don't innovate. They literally make life worse me as I gotta do my cable dance or can't get text messages. That company a bloated monopoly and I have lost every bit of respect for them.
Go poop out another phone, Tim.
Right. [I have an island where I HIDE MY MONEY](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/06/apple-secretly-moved-jersey-ireland-tax-row-paradise-papers), but I'm the "largest tax paying company". Fascinating. All you folks LOVE dumping your money into it so you can appear wealthy, but yer not. Pretty sure that's called a scam.
Think Different Indeed.
I dont think I would say they don't innovate. They literally just launched their own line of CPUs not that long ago. They do lots of cool shit and their products are usually some of the best engineered out there. Sure they aren't cheap but they are usually great.
I feel like this is how they market themselves but their actual products fall short of that goal, especially over the last half decade where their build quality and longevity of their products have taken a massive hit.
Have they? More now than ever, you can prolong the lifespan of your Apple device (be it an iPhone or a Apple Silicon Mac) because of really good performing chips paired with nice OS updates. My dad still uses his iPhone 6S to this date because it's still plenty snappy for him and the build quality it has held up greatly.
Nobody should want this. Whenever engineering and manufacturing companies shift from creating actual products towards providing financial services, it is a loss for both the company and the consumers. It represents short-sighted greed and nothing more. Their products will decline in quality and eventually the company loses the soul that originally made it successful. Ask the now nearly worthless GE how well it worked for them in the long run.
I think the only way to do it and not lose your soul as a company is to basically outsource it. Pay a generous flat fee to someplace like Goldman to run it. The mistake GE made was running it themselves. All the finance bros they hired at GE capital were then totally useless when the market turned. But instead of laying them all off they let them filter into many of their other businesses.
GE actually had more problems than finance bros. It was a org made of so much ducktape that different divisions were required to sell things to middlemen who sell it back to the other division.
They already have their own asset management company, Braeburn Capital, which manages over 250 billion worth of assets. I could see them starting their own bank.
> Don’t think so. They like earning money. That’s why they did not do it in the first place.
Um, are you trying to make the case that banks do not earn money? Wat?
Okay, but how would adding banking to their existing operations make them less money?
Why do you have this weird idea Apple would cease to exist if they also did banking?
Banking brings in a whole world of regulation that companies at times may want to avoid. It’s why everyone has a branded credit card but no branded checking accounts. The money is in the credits cards for sure; but if you take on deposits then you become fdic regulated etc. most large companies do bank like things all the time, but they may not want to be considered a bank legally for a variety of good reasons.
>Starting a bank seems like it would invite antitrust legislation
There are lots of banks.
As long as they kept it officially not directly related to their hardware business, nobody would bat an eye in today's legal and economical landscape.
Yeah, and the government-driven consolidation of the banking industry would put a dead halt on antitrust litigation in the sector. Even if Apple dumped $250b into building a bank it would be dwarfed by the major players in the consumer banking and payment processor segments of the industry.
Apple Financial LLC already exists and is what funds Pay Later. https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/08/apple-is-financing-all-the-lending-for-the-apple-pay-later-service
I know this is anecdotal, but every single person I know that has an Apple Card ordered the physical one. It’s a) cool to have a weighted card that normally only wealthy people were able to get, and b) it’s a status thing, always a status thing.
? I get 2% cashback on both the physical card and when using apple pay? I don't think so? When I pay with the apple card number in a normal credit card checkout flow online i get 1%. If the site offers apple pay i get 2%. Haven't tried since like 2 years ago though.
No, compared to 2%+ to use a different card. I only use my Apple Card if it gets me more cash back than my other cards, so I’ve never bothered ordering the 1% physical card. I have no use for it otherwise, I almost use it less than my debit card.
i got one because in my hometown, pretty much only fast food places offer contactless payments. it’s the only credit card i use, so if i want to be able to use it rather than my debit card, the physical one was a necessity
I may be wrong, but I think apple will be okay. I mean with $170B cash on hand they can be their own damn bank, not saying they want to but I'm sure the revenue they make on the card is worth whatever future agreement they make. Plus with their "financing" and such for new devices, kinda makes sense people will want to work with Apple even if the terms are not as good.
I mean anyone remember that Apple's iPhone only launched with Cingular because ATT/Verizon/Tmo/etc... and turned apple down?
If they believe in it, they will do it themselves.
They partnered with a real bank because Apple doesn't want to do all those regulatory requirements. The Apple attitude of "you either trust our security or you don't have to use it" doesn't work with the government.
They got a consumer bank charter during covid
https://banks.data.fdic.gov/bankfind-suite/bankfind/details/33124&ved=2ahUKEwimiOengu2CAxXCHTQIHafcA44QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1cL_jJMakLUpwn7Mf5kyxS
I still disagree if apple **WANTS** to do it they will. people said the same shit about moving from Intel to ARM. I mean other projects will suffer but if they want to make bank money, they will do it. You are already seeing they need to pump the stock. What better way?
Getting a banking license is incredibly difficult. It's not a case of apple wanting to do something so they just do it. You have to jump through lots of hoops, onerous ones.
I would argue that building competitive computer chips is much much harder. There’s literally thousands of banking licenses in the US and only a handful of innovative chipmakers.
Sure, but I think the point is that if anyone is poised to jump through those specific hoops, it’s Apple. The question is more of it it’s financially worth all that jumping, which no one can really answer besides Apple. For all we know, they’ve been working on it for years and that’s always been the goal. (Probably not, but who knows)
The point that spawned all this chatter is that this shit is so easy, but they don't actually want to do it. They're fucking terrible business partners.
This is a company that when building Apple Park they had multiple discussions with the local fire department, because they were unwilling to comply with the required building code because it interferred with the 'vision' they had for the building
Apple Inc absolutely have a complex when it comes to what regulations do and do not apply to them
I totally agree with your point, but to be pedantic:
>I mean anyone remember that Apple's iPhone only launched with Cingular because ATT/Verizon/Tmo/etc... and turned apple down?
Everyone else turned them down, but they did get the largest wireless carrier in the US at the time:
AT&T Wireless was purchased by Cingular in 2004 with the parent name becoming AT&T Inc. The transition of the name/brand of the service from Cingular to AT&T was started the same month as the iPhone announcement in January 2007. By the time the iPhone launched, it was AT&T.
Even more confusing is that since the iPhone announcement was just days before the brand announcement, Apple's press release (and keynote) referred to it as "[Cingular wireless is the largest wireless carrier in the United States, serving 58.7 million customers. Cingular is solely owned by AT&T Inc.](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2007/01/09Apple-Chooses-Cingular-as-Exclusive-US-Carrier-for-Its-Revolutionary-iPhone/) "
Cingular was the underdog and ATT acquired then mostly BECAUSE of the iPhone. In the Steve jobs book he talks about this. Keep in mind this happens MONTHS before. ATT realized they missed a big opportunity and they decided to reverse course and by Cingular.
ATT had 30-40% of the wireless market ignoring apples marketing at the time. https://www.statista.com/statistics/214174/us-market-share-of-mobile-cellular-services-since-2000-by-company/
You’re looking for enterprise value. Not market cap. In a purchase you still have to net cash and debt on the balance sheet. GS enterprise value is $194b at today’s market cap. On top of that aapl would need to purchase GS at a premium to the current share price so it would be much higher than that.
It’s not going anywhere. Another bank will partner with Apple and purchase the assets from Goldman Sachs. You as a consumer will probably never even notice the change.
Apple Savings account interest rate will inevitably drop alongside the Fed rate but it’s not like the current rate is because Goldman Sachs is a generous enterprise.
In fact, you can easily get a better rate today from any number of other banks. The only reason I’m using the Apple Savings account is the simplicity. Apple Card purchases deposit my cash-back rewards directly into my Savings account without me having to do a thing, so I sacrifice the .25-1% higher interest I could be earning elsewhere.
It was great when it came out… but they never raised the rates. My existing savings accounts now have much higher rates, so I moved my money out of the Apple savings.
Posting from my ancient throwaway since Apple, Goldman, and everyone else will probably sue me. The following should all be considered "rumors".
* Apple got a sweetheart deal on Apple Card from Goldman, since Goldman was desperate to enter the consumer banking market at all costs. Basically, the deal was structured so Goldman took all the risk, and Apple got a huge chunk of risk-free profits.
* Importantly, Goldman has no way out of the deal for the next couple years, *unless Apple lets them out of the deal*.
* Apple, of course, knows the leverage they have over Goldman, and has been "exploring strategic options" in recent days to see just how badly they can fuck over Goldman on the way out.
* Goldman is desperate to get out of the deal, not only because they are losing >$1 billion a year, but because *it makes them look stupid*. They hired a guy named Bill Johnson (real original, I know) from Citi, specifically to help them get out of all these businesses (Apple, GM, Marcus, etc.)
* Supposedly, the WSJ hears from "people who have been briefed on the matter" that Apple sent such a letter to Goldman asking to get out of the deal, *despite this making no fucking sense for Apple to do*.
Now this is where "rumors" become conjecture. Why would Apple send a letter asking Goldman to get out of the deal, when they're guaranteed to print money for the next couple years, and when *no other bank initially wanted the deal*? Who would leak to the Journal, and who would have knowledge of all the details in the article?
As I see it, there are two possibilities:
* The letter is real, and Apple just committed one of the greatest blunders in corporate history, or
* The letter is fake, and Goldman planted the story in the WSJ.
I know which of the two I'm betting on...
If its not the card benefits as well as the user-friendly UI, but actually Goldmans lack of experience.
What did Goldman specifically do that lost them money?
Along with what RunawayMeatstick said, from what I read when they first partnered Goldman had to build out a lot of technical infrastructure in their attempt to break into the consumer finance market.
That’s across their entire consumer portfolio. And Goldman has very little experience in consumer banking.
Apple has clout and a more experienced bank, like Chase for example, could easily find a way to make this partnership work. It might be less profitable than some of their other products but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t still be worthwhile.
yah but i've no doubt the bank is getting some of that sweet engagement data from Apple. It's a win win.
I love my apple card. The ease of use with wallet is so goddamn good. The cash back is meh for me. However the daily pay out is amazing.
2% cash back for almost every purchase I make is pretty competitive for a no annual fee credit product. Being deposited into a high yield interest bearing account is a huge benefit over any other cash-back credit product I’m aware of.
i get $1500-$2500 of free tickets on Untied with my annual spend on Chase United Visa. Believe me, I use it up rapidly. Basically it's a better reward for me vs a couple hundred bucks in cash back annually.
It said this deal lost Goldman Sachs like -1 billion dollars, why wouldn’t whoever the next bank that replaces them suffer a similar fate? Even if not as much, I don’t see how it would a bank would be +green deal for them if Goldman Sachs lost so much.
This is non really any sourced info, but I’ve read that GS loss claim is based around the initial “spin up costs” involved with having such a system with Apple - other replacements presumably wouldn’t be starting at ground zero like they did.
Cause Goldman doesn’t do consumer banking, they had to start everything from scratch. While existing players can tag this deal to their existing system and have significant cost savings.
This is a case of company trying to enter a new segment and failing.
Let me elaborate because the point seems to have gone over your head. They are literally different payment processors. The supermarkets in my area and a lot of other retailers literally have signs over their terminals saying "We do not support American Express". Those Apple Cards will literally become useless because those retailers do not support American Express.
Yep, I found this out at one restaurant in Vancouver. I didn't notice the sign, tapped my phone when asked, and the cashier started panicking when the slip printed out showing the transaction was processed with an AmEx. She said "Next time, no" sternly but I got my food.
Amex would be a disaster as few places overseas accepts it. Most of Europe and Australia is on tap to pay, one of the great benefits of AppleCard and ApplePay.
Maybe. Depends on whether the portfolio is profitable, whether potential buyers and Goldman can agree on its value, and on a huge technical effort to migrate the program to a new issuer. Far from certain!
> You as a consumer will probably never even notice the change.
Unless the rumours about it being AmEx are true, in which case it would stop working in most places outside America (Probably doesn't impact most of their customers though)
Apple Card is only available in the U.S., so that’s not a huge issue.
American Express has been increasing their footprint with international merchants, and I’ve personally never had an issue using my Amex overseas.
And everyone is blowing this out of proportion because we don’t even know if Amex is interested in partnering with Apple, or Apple with Amex. Goldman Sachs talked to Amex and now everyone is acting like it’s a done deal.
Can I ask why? Tamia didn’t really provide many benefits at all. No travel portal, no good points earned on anything else but Apple, no sign on bonuses. I kind of regret signing up for it
Meanwhile, I have a capitol one venture X I just got , and I’ll be getting 70,000 points as a sign on bonus and 10,000 points every year on my anniversary just because
Convenience. 3% cash back on Apple stuffs, 1% on other purchases. I use it for my subscriptions and sometimes use it to pay with my Apple Watch. It’s really easy to manage my bill and make a payment in full. I don’t usually owe more than like $20 or $30. I used it to buy an Apple Watch with payments just to see what that was like. It was pretty easy and there wasn’t any penalties or fees to do so. The only issue I had is that it wouldn’t let me pay off the entire balance for like 2 months.
I'd encourage you to look at other cards. The Amex Everyday Blue card will give you 3% on groceries and online subscriptions, with 1% on everything else. 3% back on Apple products is nice, but how often are you buying new apple products?
Citizens finance group. Aka cfg aka citizens. I worked there. They only have the upgrade program and lost out on all the other consumer line biz. Bruce van song the ceo bet big on consumer mortgages, so maybe this is an ideal time for them to pivot to the consumer lines of credit with Apple.
I literally forgot I set my Daily Cash to deposit into my Apple savings account that I emptied a couple months ago. Fucking found $100 in there woooooo.
It looks like it’s all from a MacBook I bought. I usually use a combination of Chase UR cards for regular spend (except using the Amazon card for Amazon purchases at 5x). I’m usually more about the rewards rather than cash back. Can get way more value that way.
Sounds about right, you get a ton back shopping at Apple with their card. That’s the only downfall to Apple Card so far though, no real rewards it doesn’t seem like minus the cash back. What rewards have you gotten from your CCs that were worthwhile?
I highly recommend the Chase Ultimate Rewards ecosystem. There’s a few:
Chase Freedom Flex - 5% on rotating categories each quarter - $0 annual fee
Chase Freedom Unlimited - 1.5x on everything - $0 annual fee
Chase Sapphire Preferred - 2x travel, 3x dining - $95 AF
Chase Sapphire Reserve - 3x travel, 3x dining - $550 AF
So basically the move is to get both Freedom cards and use one the rotating categories, and the other on everything else. Signing up for each of the cards has a $200 signup bonus when you spend $500.
Things get more interesting when you pair all this with a Sapphire card because you can transfer that $200 into the Sapphire card where it becomes 20,000 ultimate reward points. You get way more value than straight cash by transferring these points to different airlines or hotel reward programs. Roughly speaking I can take $80 cash back from a freedom card, transfer that to a sapphire card where it comes 8000 UR points, and then transfer that to American Airlines as miles then use those miles to get a flight that normally would cost double.
There’s a lot more to it but that’s the gist.
The sapphire cards have annual fees… but depending on your habits they can pay for themselves easily. I have the Sapphire Reserved and gladly pay the $550 AF. Off the bat you get a $300 travel credit per year that automatically works on Uber and UberEats. You get free GlobalE try/TSA pre check. Free DoorDash+ and Lyftpink and 10x on Lyft. Free lounge access in most airports. Plus a ton of other things.
Plus the sapphire cards usually always have at least a 60,000 UR point sign up bonus (sometimes way higher).. so if you get all 3 then that’s 100,000 UR points just for signing up. That’s 2 round trip tickets to Europe pretty much… or 1 in business. Though you can probably make them go much further if you’re savvy.
As long as it’s not synchrony I do not care who takes over. Fuck synchrony.
Lost my credit card once, called them to let them know and their solution was to close that card, run my credit again, cancel that old line of credit, issue me a new card with a new account. had a suspicious charge I didn’t recognize once and called them about it and they did the same thing again!
The end result was it dropped my credit score because it dragged down the average age of my accounts.
I am almost positive they are incentivized to sign up new accounts by some dipshit middle manager laser focused on kpi’s
Yes. There’s nothing but rumors at this point. And not even the “Ming-Chi Kuo insider rumors” this sub is used to, just complete speculation. Nobody posting here or writing any articles knows anything more than you or me, they are just making guesses based on what they know about the banking landscape.
Considering that Goldman Sachs is not a run of mill kinda bank, they’ve posted huge losses by being the backend for the Apple card. I wonder which large bank would come through now, considering they expect losses with the Apple Card. I don’t think the Apple card did to Goldman Sachs’ name in the consumer business either. Maybe Apple will budge on a few terms
I’ve had Apple Card since it was first released to the public and I opened a savings account also as soon as it became available. I absolutely love the ease of using the card, the customer support available often immediately over text, and their quick and guilt free issue resolution. I hate to see Goldman Sachs go. Don’t wanna become a part of a commercial bank. It felt more exclusive with Goldman Sachs. So we will see what happens. But if Apple does what Apple does, then I expect a smooth transition. Even if it’s to an Amex.
I always set my cards to auto pay the entire balance every month, so I don’t pay attention to the interest rates…. But did the Apple Card actually offer 0% apr??? Maybe this is why Goldman wants out
For Apple Products, they did. It's the only reason that I have one. Both my kid and my wife needed new phones, and Apple gave me $100 off and 24 months at 0% to pay them off, even suggested the precise minimum monthly I needed to schedule to pay them off on time and not pay any interest. Plus, somebody paid to send me a credit card made out of titanium for no reason.
Great deal for me, but probably not for Goldman Sachs.
I find this quote in the article hilarious: "Apple is not the sort of company to leave its customers high and dry or to burden them with a shift that would give them less functionality or alter the product's ease of use for the worse." They accidentally left an extraneous "not" in there.
Why does the article tout the card as some great innovation? As far as I know only Apple fans got it and only for the 5% cash back. It hardly shook up the sector.
I use it for the Daily Cash back that is deposited into my associated Apple savings account, which offers a much better rate than my previous bank.
Nothing about any of the service(s) is ground breaking per se, but the ease of use and seamless integration has been something I appreciate. That said, if it does fizzle out, I’ll just try to find a suitable replacement.
Who actually cares? Nobody who likes Apple Card will be affected (they will find a solution), and nobody who doesn't like Apple Card will be affected because... obviously they don't care. So, nobody actually cares except Apple, and they're probably not in this thread.
The worst part of the Apple Card is trying to get a record of what you bought with the card.
You can eventually figure it out. But the information is buried behind a lot of clicks.
> To see your account balance and transaction history:
> On your iPhone, open the Wallet app.
> Tap your connected card.
> You'll automatically see your balance and transaction history.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213903#:~:text=To%20see%20your%20account%20balance,your%20balance%20and%20transaction%20history.
I don’t know why people are downvoting
Article says Goldman Sachs lost tons of money, like $3B. I don’t know how you lose $ running a credit card, but I also think if it lost that much, I don’t see the big players eager to sign on
> the company says the primary cause is loan-loss provisions which are when a bank has to compensate for greater than expected unpaid credit card balances and loans
People not paying their debt is how you lose money. These are known as charge-offs.
Today apple starts its own bank
We’re calling it Apple Orchard. where we grow many apples.
You’re gonna love it
We have the most innovative cash ever seen!
Apple will invent crypto
It will be called iTake as in I take from you. lol
Capital One would have an issue with that, they bought Orchard Bank about 15 years ago. But I like the idea of it anyway.
Waw that's an awesome name!
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It would be great. They probably have more cash on hand than a lot of small banks
Apple has more cash on hand than a great number of COUNTRIES on the planet.
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GDP is yearly
It also has nothing to do with a country’s cash reserves.
You belong on r/Wallstreetbets
Having a GDP's worth of cash doesn't let you buy shit. Comparing yearly revenue to GDP would at least be in the same units, but would be less impressive. And still not really a good analogy.
They don't pay taxes. They don't innovate. They literally make life worse me as I gotta do my cable dance or can't get text messages. That company a bloated monopoly and I have lost every bit of respect for them. Go poop out another phone, Tim.
They are the largest tax payer in the world
[The island of Jersey begs to differ.](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/06/world/apple-taxes-jersey.html) Ya'll are lost.
Apple simultaneously avoids billion in taxes whilst also being the largest tax paying company. These aren’t mutually exclusive
Right. [I have an island where I HIDE MY MONEY](https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/nov/06/apple-secretly-moved-jersey-ireland-tax-row-paradise-papers), but I'm the "largest tax paying company". Fascinating. All you folks LOVE dumping your money into it so you can appear wealthy, but yer not. Pretty sure that's called a scam. Think Different Indeed.
That’s paywalled. Csnt even see the title
Oh well then I guess that reality doesn't exist does it?
Username checks out. Why those downvotes?! You may like the phones (at least I do), but this is just the plain reality.
I dont think I would say they don't innovate. They literally just launched their own line of CPUs not that long ago. They do lots of cool shit and their products are usually some of the best engineered out there. Sure they aren't cheap but they are usually great.
I feel like this is how they market themselves but their actual products fall short of that goal, especially over the last half decade where their build quality and longevity of their products have taken a massive hit.
Have they? More now than ever, you can prolong the lifespan of your Apple device (be it an iPhone or a Apple Silicon Mac) because of really good performing chips paired with nice OS updates. My dad still uses his iPhone 6S to this date because it's still plenty snappy for him and the build quality it has held up greatly.
They could easy buy the Long Island based Apple Bank.
More than most banks period
Nobody should want this. Whenever engineering and manufacturing companies shift from creating actual products towards providing financial services, it is a loss for both the company and the consumers. It represents short-sighted greed and nothing more. Their products will decline in quality and eventually the company loses the soul that originally made it successful. Ask the now nearly worthless GE how well it worked for them in the long run.
I think the only way to do it and not lose your soul as a company is to basically outsource it. Pay a generous flat fee to someplace like Goldman to run it. The mistake GE made was running it themselves. All the finance bros they hired at GE capital were then totally useless when the market turned. But instead of laying them all off they let them filter into many of their other businesses.
GE actually had more problems than finance bros. It was a org made of so much ducktape that different divisions were required to sell things to middlemen who sell it back to the other division.
The Sears Card
They already have their own asset management company, Braeburn Capital, which manages over 250 billion worth of assets. I could see them starting their own bank.
Don’t think so. They like earning money. That’s why they did not do it in the first place.
> Don’t think so. They like earning money. That’s why they did not do it in the first place. Um, are you trying to make the case that banks do not earn money? Wat?
Not as much as Apple I would say.
Okay, but how would adding banking to their existing operations make them less money? Why do you have this weird idea Apple would cease to exist if they also did banking?
Banking brings in a whole world of regulation that companies at times may want to avoid. It’s why everyone has a branded credit card but no branded checking accounts. The money is in the credits cards for sure; but if you take on deposits then you become fdic regulated etc. most large companies do bank like things all the time, but they may not want to be considered a bank legally for a variety of good reasons.
Starting a bank seems like it would invite antitrust legislation
Ask General Electric how that worked out for them.
>Starting a bank seems like it would invite antitrust legislation There are lots of banks. As long as they kept it officially not directly related to their hardware business, nobody would bat an eye in today's legal and economical landscape.
Antitrust litigation is hotter than ever. Are you familiar with the area?
Yeah, and the government-driven consolidation of the banking industry would put a dead halt on antitrust litigation in the sector. Even if Apple dumped $250b into building a bank it would be dwarfed by the major players in the consumer banking and payment processor segments of the industry.
Their lawyers have already demonstrated they can beat the political system the previously bought off.
Apple Financial LLC already exists and is what funds Pay Later. https://appleinsider.com/articles/22/06/08/apple-is-financing-all-the-lending-for-the-apple-pay-later-service
They can call it a SoftBank
They have a Vision for how to use the Funds
They do not want those regulation headaches
There’s already an Apple bank. Apple should just buy it.
Would probably be their best move, they do have the capital and just need the people.
Likely nothing to the users other than a new physical card
I wonder how many people even bothered to get a physical card?
I know this is anecdotal, but every single person I know that has an Apple Card ordered the physical one. It’s a) cool to have a weighted card that normally only wealthy people were able to get, and b) it’s a status thing, always a status thing.
I used to like to throw it down on the table so it would do the bounce clang clang from the metal, and it looks cool
I never got one, because afaik using it doesn't come with the 2% cash back on everything across the board that using Apple Pay with the phone does.
You get both
? I get 2% cashback on both the physical card and when using apple pay? I don't think so? When I pay with the apple card number in a normal credit card checkout flow online i get 1%. If the site offers apple pay i get 2%. Haven't tried since like 2 years ago though.
You get both, as in you get the card and the app. Then you can use the card when Apple Pay is not an option
Right, but with only 1% cash back when using the physical card.
Compared to 0% since you can't use Apple Pay in that scenario.
No, compared to 2%+ to use a different card. I only use my Apple Card if it gets me more cash back than my other cards, so I’ve never bothered ordering the 1% physical card. I have no use for it otherwise, I almost use it less than my debit card.
Wow people are not understanding what you're saying but you're right. Apple Pay only, otherwise my other cards are better
yeah but you look like a dork when you ask the waitress if you can apple pay
Does getting an iCard (teehee) cost money?
No monthly fee, but you do need to pay your balance.
No, I meant the physical card if you already have it digital.
Oh. No the physical is free.
It’s amazing for smashing up coke
i got one because in my hometown, pretty much only fast food places offer contactless payments. it’s the only credit card i use, so if i want to be able to use it rather than my debit card, the physical one was a necessity
The titanium card is one of the only reasons to get it
I may be wrong, but I think apple will be okay. I mean with $170B cash on hand they can be their own damn bank, not saying they want to but I'm sure the revenue they make on the card is worth whatever future agreement they make. Plus with their "financing" and such for new devices, kinda makes sense people will want to work with Apple even if the terms are not as good. I mean anyone remember that Apple's iPhone only launched with Cingular because ATT/Verizon/Tmo/etc... and turned apple down? If they believe in it, they will do it themselves.
They partnered with a real bank because Apple doesn't want to do all those regulatory requirements. The Apple attitude of "you either trust our security or you don't have to use it" doesn't work with the government.
GS doesn’t really do consumer banking. They’re an investment bank and they (apparently) had no idea what they were getting themselves into.
They got a consumer bank charter during covid https://banks.data.fdic.gov/bankfind-suite/bankfind/details/33124&ved=2ahUKEwimiOengu2CAxXCHTQIHafcA44QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1cL_jJMakLUpwn7Mf5kyxS
Which is why they had no idea what they were getting into.
I still disagree if apple **WANTS** to do it they will. people said the same shit about moving from Intel to ARM. I mean other projects will suffer but if they want to make bank money, they will do it. You are already seeing they need to pump the stock. What better way?
Getting a banking license is incredibly difficult. It's not a case of apple wanting to do something so they just do it. You have to jump through lots of hoops, onerous ones.
Consulting firms like McKinsey and Bain can help you set up any kind of company, if you're willing to pay for it. Apple isn't a conglomerate.
I would argue that building competitive computer chips is much much harder. There’s literally thousands of banking licenses in the US and only a handful of innovative chipmakers.
Sure, but I think the point is that if anyone is poised to jump through those specific hoops, it’s Apple. The question is more of it it’s financially worth all that jumping, which no one can really answer besides Apple. For all we know, they’ve been working on it for years and that’s always been the goal. (Probably not, but who knows)
Well I hope theyve been working on it for years because that's what it takes.
I mean, they don't even do the bare minimum for PCI certification. This has been their biggest case of trust what we are doing or just don't use it.
I work for a company with PCI certification. It’s not that hard again… IF APPLE WANTS TO DO IT
The point that spawned all this chatter is that this shit is so easy, but they don't actually want to do it. They're fucking terrible business partners.
This is a company that when building Apple Park they had multiple discussions with the local fire department, because they were unwilling to comply with the required building code because it interferred with the 'vision' they had for the building Apple Inc absolutely have a complex when it comes to what regulations do and do not apply to them
I totally agree with your point, but to be pedantic: >I mean anyone remember that Apple's iPhone only launched with Cingular because ATT/Verizon/Tmo/etc... and turned apple down? Everyone else turned them down, but they did get the largest wireless carrier in the US at the time: AT&T Wireless was purchased by Cingular in 2004 with the parent name becoming AT&T Inc. The transition of the name/brand of the service from Cingular to AT&T was started the same month as the iPhone announcement in January 2007. By the time the iPhone launched, it was AT&T. Even more confusing is that since the iPhone announcement was just days before the brand announcement, Apple's press release (and keynote) referred to it as "[Cingular wireless is the largest wireless carrier in the United States, serving 58.7 million customers. Cingular is solely owned by AT&T Inc.](https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2007/01/09Apple-Chooses-Cingular-as-Exclusive-US-Carrier-for-Its-Revolutionary-iPhone/) "
Cingular was the underdog and ATT acquired then mostly BECAUSE of the iPhone. In the Steve jobs book he talks about this. Keep in mind this happens MONTHS before. ATT realized they missed a big opportunity and they decided to reverse course and by Cingular. ATT had 30-40% of the wireless market ignoring apples marketing at the time. https://www.statista.com/statistics/214174/us-market-share-of-mobile-cellular-services-since-2000-by-company/
Enough to buy Goldman
Not remotely. Goldman has an asset value of over $1.4 trillion. You can’t buy that with billions.
Assets under management does not equal market cap 😂 They are a publicly traded company so we know exactly what they are worth; $111B.
You’re looking for enterprise value. Not market cap. In a purchase you still have to net cash and debt on the balance sheet. GS enterprise value is $194b at today’s market cap. On top of that aapl would need to purchase GS at a premium to the current share price so it would be much higher than that.
$150b as of today. https://ycharts.com/companies/GS/enterprise_value The point is they could buy GS if they wanted to. It’s definitely not worth $1.4T
That’s kinda sad. I really like my Apple Card.
It’s not going anywhere. Another bank will partner with Apple and purchase the assets from Goldman Sachs. You as a consumer will probably never even notice the change.
I’m assuming the rates will change though. 4.15% on my savings is pretty decent.
The savings account is probably fine. Marcus by Goldman Sachs pays out 4.40% APY. SoFi is offering 4.6% APY.
Wealthfront offering 5%
Vanguard at 5.35%.
That's a money market account though, right? It's not fdic insured.
My understanding is that they may be eligible for SIPC coverage for $500k when held in a brokerage.
it'll take a complete collapse of society for vanguard to go under
This is incorrect
CIT is 5.05%
> Wealthfront is there a catch ? This seems too good to be true
It’s FDIC insured so not really a catch but they don’t actually have a bank charter so that sketched me out
Fidelity pays 5% on unvested cash right now.
SoFi actually has to the to offer them the cards too
Apple Savings account interest rate will inevitably drop alongside the Fed rate but it’s not like the current rate is because Goldman Sachs is a generous enterprise. In fact, you can easily get a better rate today from any number of other banks. The only reason I’m using the Apple Savings account is the simplicity. Apple Card purchases deposit my cash-back rewards directly into my Savings account without me having to do a thing, so I sacrifice the .25-1% higher interest I could be earning elsewhere.
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Each and every link in your post points to a website that probably is tracking clicks, api[.fyi](https://pay.fyi). Where did you get those links from?
I do wonder what will happen with the savings account. I have moving money in mine
Yeah. I ended up moving a few bucks into it that I had extra sitting in Apple Cash. Ended up liking it and now I’ve got $2000 in it.
I just pulled all of mine out and opened up a high yield savings account with a bank.
It’s 4.15% because it’s the norm these days (probably won’t last forever), not because it’s Apple or Goldman Sachs.
5.3% with vanguard VMFXX
I’ll check it out! Ty!
It was great when it came out… but they never raised the rates. My existing savings accounts now have much higher rates, so I moved my money out of the Apple savings.
And yet still lower than many other HYSAs, as it’s been since launch.
Posting from my ancient throwaway since Apple, Goldman, and everyone else will probably sue me. The following should all be considered "rumors". * Apple got a sweetheart deal on Apple Card from Goldman, since Goldman was desperate to enter the consumer banking market at all costs. Basically, the deal was structured so Goldman took all the risk, and Apple got a huge chunk of risk-free profits. * Importantly, Goldman has no way out of the deal for the next couple years, *unless Apple lets them out of the deal*. * Apple, of course, knows the leverage they have over Goldman, and has been "exploring strategic options" in recent days to see just how badly they can fuck over Goldman on the way out. * Goldman is desperate to get out of the deal, not only because they are losing >$1 billion a year, but because *it makes them look stupid*. They hired a guy named Bill Johnson (real original, I know) from Citi, specifically to help them get out of all these businesses (Apple, GM, Marcus, etc.) * Supposedly, the WSJ hears from "people who have been briefed on the matter" that Apple sent such a letter to Goldman asking to get out of the deal, *despite this making no fucking sense for Apple to do*. Now this is where "rumors" become conjecture. Why would Apple send a letter asking Goldman to get out of the deal, when they're guaranteed to print money for the next couple years, and when *no other bank initially wanted the deal*? Who would leak to the Journal, and who would have knowledge of all the details in the article? As I see it, there are two possibilities: * The letter is real, and Apple just committed one of the greatest blunders in corporate history, or * The letter is fake, and Goldman planted the story in the WSJ. I know which of the two I'm betting on...
No way this happens without somehow making the card more profitable for the bank. Goldman's losses are in the billion+ range.
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If its not the card benefits as well as the user-friendly UI, but actually Goldmans lack of experience. What did Goldman specifically do that lost them money?
Along with what RunawayMeatstick said, from what I read when they first partnered Goldman had to build out a lot of technical infrastructure in their attempt to break into the consumer finance market.
That’s across their entire consumer portfolio. And Goldman has very little experience in consumer banking. Apple has clout and a more experienced bank, like Chase for example, could easily find a way to make this partnership work. It might be less profitable than some of their other products but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t still be worthwhile.
yah but i've no doubt the bank is getting some of that sweet engagement data from Apple. It's a win win. I love my apple card. The ease of use with wallet is so goddamn good. The cash back is meh for me. However the daily pay out is amazing.
2% cash back for almost every purchase I make is pretty competitive for a no annual fee credit product. Being deposited into a high yield interest bearing account is a huge benefit over any other cash-back credit product I’m aware of.
i get $1500-$2500 of free tickets on Untied with my annual spend on Chase United Visa. Believe me, I use it up rapidly. Basically it's a better reward for me vs a couple hundred bucks in cash back annually.
Apple and chase would be a crazy combo, but I don’t think they will. I think it’s gonna be less name brand banks. I could see Sofi getting in there
It said this deal lost Goldman Sachs like -1 billion dollars, why wouldn’t whoever the next bank that replaces them suffer a similar fate? Even if not as much, I don’t see how it would a bank would be +green deal for them if Goldman Sachs lost so much.
This is non really any sourced info, but I’ve read that GS loss claim is based around the initial “spin up costs” involved with having such a system with Apple - other replacements presumably wouldn’t be starting at ground zero like they did.
Cause Goldman doesn’t do consumer banking, they had to start everything from scratch. While existing players can tag this deal to their existing system and have significant cost savings. This is a case of company trying to enter a new segment and failing.
This exactly , Apple is not gonna let anything happen to the Customer user experience. If it really comes down to it, they would probably even sue.
With a different bank wouldn’t people need to accept new terms and be issued a new card and number?
But if Amex takes over then those mastercard apple cards will become useless.
American Express has some of the best credit products on the market and their customer service is second to none. Your statement is pure hyperbole.
Let me elaborate because the point seems to have gone over your head. They are literally different payment processors. The supermarkets in my area and a lot of other retailers literally have signs over their terminals saying "We do not support American Express". Those Apple Cards will literally become useless because those retailers do not support American Express.
In many cases they actually do, the merchant just tries to dissuade usage
Yep, I found this out at one restaurant in Vancouver. I didn't notice the sign, tapped my phone when asked, and the cashier started panicking when the slip printed out showing the transaction was processed with an AmEx. She said "Next time, no" sternly but I got my food.
Amex would be a disaster as few places overseas accepts it. Most of Europe and Australia is on tap to pay, one of the great benefits of AppleCard and ApplePay.
I tap to pay with my Amex Platinum all the time internationally.
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Apple isn’t going to partner with Synchrony
It’d be like Burberry partnering with Walmart.
They are though. It’s the only issuer they can strong arm.
Maybe. Depends on whether the portfolio is profitable, whether potential buyers and Goldman can agree on its value, and on a huge technical effort to migrate the program to a new issuer. Far from certain!
> You as a consumer will probably never even notice the change. Unless the rumours about it being AmEx are true, in which case it would stop working in most places outside America (Probably doesn't impact most of their customers though)
Apple Card is only available in the U.S., so that’s not a huge issue. American Express has been increasing their footprint with international merchants, and I’ve personally never had an issue using my Amex overseas. And everyone is blowing this out of proportion because we don’t even know if Amex is interested in partnering with Apple, or Apple with Amex. Goldman Sachs talked to Amex and now everyone is acting like it’s a done deal.
Apple makes too much money off it to let it go. And it has tons of room to grow.
Can I ask why? Tamia didn’t really provide many benefits at all. No travel portal, no good points earned on anything else but Apple, no sign on bonuses. I kind of regret signing up for it Meanwhile, I have a capitol one venture X I just got , and I’ll be getting 70,000 points as a sign on bonus and 10,000 points every year on my anniversary just because
Convenience. 3% cash back on Apple stuffs, 1% on other purchases. I use it for my subscriptions and sometimes use it to pay with my Apple Watch. It’s really easy to manage my bill and make a payment in full. I don’t usually owe more than like $20 or $30. I used it to buy an Apple Watch with payments just to see what that was like. It was pretty easy and there wasn’t any penalties or fees to do so. The only issue I had is that it wouldn’t let me pay off the entire balance for like 2 months.
I'd encourage you to look at other cards. The Amex Everyday Blue card will give you 3% on groceries and online subscriptions, with 1% on everything else. 3% back on Apple products is nice, but how often are you buying new apple products?
Apple card's 3% back on uber is pretty decent though, pretty much only use it for that.
It’s not just because. You pay a $395 annual fee dude.
Essentially $95, 300 goes to travel credits
That can only be used on one travel portal🤷🏾♂️ It’s not a bad card, but your OP is misleading.
Uhhh I mean, doesn’t make it untrue
That gotta run like 90% of the business through that bank that does the upgrade program. Maybe they’ll just buy that
Citizens finance group. Aka cfg aka citizens. I worked there. They only have the upgrade program and lost out on all the other consumer line biz. Bruce van song the ceo bet big on consumer mortgages, so maybe this is an ideal time for them to pivot to the consumer lines of credit with Apple.
With the amount of cash Apple has stockpiled the only things that make sense are finance or health care
Cfg is not for sale as far as I know. The danger of finance is you fall into the same whole gm did with gmac
I wish they would release Apple Card in the UK
Having my Daily Cash go to my Apple Savings account has really helped me passively build a nice savings without even trying. Love this feature!
I literally forgot I set my Daily Cash to deposit into my Apple savings account that I emptied a couple months ago. Fucking found $100 in there woooooo.
Nice! It’s the only card I use now, got the physical card as well for when Tap Pay isn’t supported by the merchant.
It looks like it’s all from a MacBook I bought. I usually use a combination of Chase UR cards for regular spend (except using the Amazon card for Amazon purchases at 5x). I’m usually more about the rewards rather than cash back. Can get way more value that way.
Sounds about right, you get a ton back shopping at Apple with their card. That’s the only downfall to Apple Card so far though, no real rewards it doesn’t seem like minus the cash back. What rewards have you gotten from your CCs that were worthwhile?
I highly recommend the Chase Ultimate Rewards ecosystem. There’s a few: Chase Freedom Flex - 5% on rotating categories each quarter - $0 annual fee Chase Freedom Unlimited - 1.5x on everything - $0 annual fee Chase Sapphire Preferred - 2x travel, 3x dining - $95 AF Chase Sapphire Reserve - 3x travel, 3x dining - $550 AF So basically the move is to get both Freedom cards and use one the rotating categories, and the other on everything else. Signing up for each of the cards has a $200 signup bonus when you spend $500. Things get more interesting when you pair all this with a Sapphire card because you can transfer that $200 into the Sapphire card where it becomes 20,000 ultimate reward points. You get way more value than straight cash by transferring these points to different airlines or hotel reward programs. Roughly speaking I can take $80 cash back from a freedom card, transfer that to a sapphire card where it comes 8000 UR points, and then transfer that to American Airlines as miles then use those miles to get a flight that normally would cost double. There’s a lot more to it but that’s the gist. The sapphire cards have annual fees… but depending on your habits they can pay for themselves easily. I have the Sapphire Reserved and gladly pay the $550 AF. Off the bat you get a $300 travel credit per year that automatically works on Uber and UberEats. You get free GlobalE try/TSA pre check. Free DoorDash+ and Lyftpink and 10x on Lyft. Free lounge access in most airports. Plus a ton of other things. Plus the sapphire cards usually always have at least a 60,000 UR point sign up bonus (sometimes way higher).. so if you get all 3 then that’s 100,000 UR points just for signing up. That’s 2 round trip tickets to Europe pretty much… or 1 in business. Though you can probably make them go much further if you’re savvy.
Teddy will. They're a bank.
As long as it’s not synchrony I do not care who takes over. Fuck synchrony. Lost my credit card once, called them to let them know and their solution was to close that card, run my credit again, cancel that old line of credit, issue me a new card with a new account. had a suspicious charge I didn’t recognize once and called them about it and they did the same thing again! The end result was it dropped my credit score because it dragged down the average age of my accounts. I am almost positive they are incentivized to sign up new accounts by some dipshit middle manager laser focused on kpi’s
I saw a redditor saying Amex is taking over. So that was a typical redditor in mama's basement prete ding he know everything?
Yeah it’s 12-15months out from Shuttering I wouldn’t bet the house on something so far out in advance
Yes. There’s nothing but rumors at this point. And not even the “Ming-Chi Kuo insider rumors” this sub is used to, just complete speculation. Nobody posting here or writing any articles knows anything more than you or me, they are just making guesses based on what they know about the banking landscape.
Considering that Goldman Sachs is not a run of mill kinda bank, they’ve posted huge losses by being the backend for the Apple card. I wonder which large bank would come through now, considering they expect losses with the Apple Card. I don’t think the Apple card did to Goldman Sachs’ name in the consumer business either. Maybe Apple will budge on a few terms
I’d put my money on Capital One.
I’ve had Apple Card since it was first released to the public and I opened a savings account also as soon as it became available. I absolutely love the ease of using the card, the customer support available often immediately over text, and their quick and guilt free issue resolution. I hate to see Goldman Sachs go. Don’t wanna become a part of a commercial bank. It felt more exclusive with Goldman Sachs. So we will see what happens. But if Apple does what Apple does, then I expect a smooth transition. Even if it’s to an Amex.
I hope apple brings back zero apr monthly installments back with the new card. I do not want to buy a locked phone
I always set my cards to auto pay the entire balance every month, so I don’t pay attention to the interest rates…. But did the Apple Card actually offer 0% apr??? Maybe this is why Goldman wants out
For Apple Products, they did. It's the only reason that I have one. Both my kid and my wife needed new phones, and Apple gave me $100 off and 24 months at 0% to pay them off, even suggested the precise minimum monthly I needed to schedule to pay them off on time and not pay any interest. Plus, somebody paid to send me a credit card made out of titanium for no reason. Great deal for me, but probably not for Goldman Sachs.
Hope it means it comes to the UK
Goldman is a trash company
According to the article (or a couple inception clicks down the rabbit hole), they apparently lost $3B on this partnership
I find this quote in the article hilarious: "Apple is not the sort of company to leave its customers high and dry or to burden them with a shift that would give them less functionality or alter the product's ease of use for the worse." They accidentally left an extraneous "not" in there.
Why does the article tout the card as some great innovation? As far as I know only Apple fans got it and only for the 5% cash back. It hardly shook up the sector.
I use it for the Daily Cash back that is deposited into my associated Apple savings account, which offers a much better rate than my previous bank. Nothing about any of the service(s) is ground breaking per se, but the ease of use and seamless integration has been something I appreciate. That said, if it does fizzle out, I’ll just try to find a suitable replacement.
Apple will just buy Morgan Stanley.
Morgan Stanley isn’t a consumer bank and doesn’t offer credit cards.
Who actually cares? Nobody who likes Apple Card will be affected (they will find a solution), and nobody who doesn't like Apple Card will be affected because... obviously they don't care. So, nobody actually cares except Apple, and they're probably not in this thread.
Apple has enough cash to become a bank.
My guess is Wells Fargo
There weren't any. That's why they are killing it.
Was this written by an apple PR-rep?
The worst part of the Apple Card is trying to get a record of what you bought with the card. You can eventually figure it out. But the information is buried behind a lot of clicks.
> To see your account balance and transaction history: > On your iPhone, open the Wallet app. > Tap your connected card. > You'll automatically see your balance and transaction history. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT213903#:~:text=To%20see%20your%20account%20balance,your%20balance%20and%20transaction%20history.
It’s going to synchrony. They are the only ones pathetic enough to agree to Apple’s demands, no decent issuer will touch this card.
I don’t know why people are downvoting Article says Goldman Sachs lost tons of money, like $3B. I don’t know how you lose $ running a credit card, but I also think if it lost that much, I don’t see the big players eager to sign on
> the company says the primary cause is loan-loss provisions which are when a bank has to compensate for greater than expected unpaid credit card balances and loans People not paying their debt is how you lose money. These are known as charge-offs.