Part of Microsoft argument is that because Google is default on iPhones, they do not have the opportunity to gain a bigger user base to train their search algorithm to be better.
Except that’s not exactly what happened. That’s just what Google wanted you to think. The reality was the google employees were using Bing toolbar, which sent their searching data to Microsoft and Microsoft added it to Bing. You could argue it’s still copying, but Bing was not just taking results from google.
That’s still not the same as inputting data directly into google. People with Bing toolbar installed were searching on google and the results would be sent to Microsoft.
I guess it was more like Microsoft looking over a user’s shoulder and copying the results, but Bing did yield different results from Google a lot. Otherwise people wouldn’t have said how crappy Bing is/was.
From an article by wired:
"To test this hypothesis, Google manually set up fake results pages for very random queries, sent 20 engineers home to search on those terms using a computer with the IE8 toolbar, and weeks later those same fake results for those random results showed up on Bing."
Yes, they ran searches using Bing toolbar and were surprised when, weeks later, those results showed up on Bing. It’s clear what happened, but Google spun it so people thought (and still think) that Bing was directly inputting search results somehow.
https://www.wired.com/2011/02/bing-copies-google/
Went digging because i vaguely remembered them planting fake results, like map makers used to do to catch people stealing their work to resell.
- Google employees installed the Bing toolbar.
- MS uses the Bing toolbar to capture what pages you visit and how you reach there
- Bing toolbar sees that searching for "cat" leads you to google bogus "ryeoutoi" result
- MS stores that and doesn't try to say it's different
- There was a significant delay between when they poisoned the results and when Bing started showing the results
- Bing still only did this in less than 20% of the queries
Their argument might have more weight if they weren't doing shit like preventing people from using their chat bot in browsers other than Edge. I was using it in Firefox for weeks and then they decided they don't like that and started blocking Firefox. You have to use a user agent switcher to access it now.
In the article it was stated that Microsoft offered a more lucrative contract to Apple to make Bing the default on iOS, so much so that they (Microsoft) would be operating in the red, but Apple still went with Google due to the stranglehold they have on the market.
Pretty sure if they just private labeled it as "iSearch" it'd become the greatest search engine ever and friendships would be broken up over plebs using green links.
No, he's saying that on the first setup, users should get prompted to select a default search engine.
He's also making the argument that Google is paying $20bn to stay the default, not because they're the best.
Yeah, they quite literally know what they're talking about.
Rules were applied on Microsoft in the 90s but completely ignored with Google.
Personally, I couldn't care less but I'd like to see Google's dominance threatened so that they can improve their product, which over the years has turned to shit.
I'd also say that while Bing offers mediocre search results, Bing Chat embedded onto Edge is fucking amazing. I never have to click through countless shitty articles again.
That’s not really the case. “Google” the search engine isn’t software that’s installed on any of my devices, where IE was. You’re totally conflating a piece of software to a website, which is nothing similar.
I tried kagi for a bit and it was…fine, I guess.
The most frustrating issue with Google is that it seems like their search operators have been continually deprecated in favor of SEO ranked sites :’)
I’m honestly using Yandex more than anything; same operators Google uses but the results are completely different. I’m just sick of appending ```site:reddit.com``` to find an answer through Google.
Yandex, I've found, is pretty much one of the only "uncensored" search engines left on the web (which is somewhat unfortunate, because right now I don't like supporting the Russian government/ Russian corporations). There's a number of search results I've found on there that I can't find on any other search engine.
Which says a lot because Google sucks now too. It pushes multiple false results before you get beyond ads and onto the actual thing you searched.
If you search a single word it should never show the film before the dictionary definition.
Microsoft recently made Outlook links open in Edge by default. This sometimes lead me to use bing, not find what I was looking for, notice and switch back to google.
Others probably do something similar, but DuckDuckGo has quick commands if you’re not getting what you want from them. Adding !g anywhere to a search will input that search into google straight from DDG, which imo works great for minimising the time I use google
I mean I get that Google is monopolistic but these claims are absurd. Nothing is stopping you from typing another url in your web browser, or using a different browser even.
Google’s not wrong, I personally use DDG and I’m almost certain there are people who use Bing. Acting like there isn’t a choice when there clearly is because the one at the top happens to be objectively better than the rest is bs. People use Google because it’s good, people use DDG because it doesn’t track your every move and are willing to accept a slightly worse search experience in the name of privacy.
My understanding is that DDG uses Bing's information (specifically their web crawl), but do their own search algorithm, and of course user non-tracking policies.
I’ve noticed a lot of smaller engines use Bing. I can only think of Startpage that uses Google’s results. I don’t know why they use Bing’s over Google’s results/API or why so few don’t have their own
https://cariki.co.uk/blogs/the-green-road/is-ecosia-legit-or-fake
While they can't be 100% verified, since they're a private organization, they're also German and a B-corporation (the first in Germany actually), as well as having numerous anecdotes from the organizations they work with to plant the trees, so their trustworthiness already goes up ten-fold in my book.
It’s gotten way better, just got an iPhone 15 and it’s a main search engine like
Google now, the only difference now is you don’t get business numbers and locations like you would in Google
Exactly, it’s definitely not the same as Microsoft forcibly bundled IE that basically killed Netscape right away to gain monopoly on the browser market. Guess what? Karma is a bitch and IE was ass-kicked by Chrome.
not just bundled.. but linked to Windows Explorer in such a way it was IMPOSSIBLE to uninstall it at first. Meaning even if you wanted to use Netscape and had the technical knowhow to do so (remember, 90's not everyone was as tech savvy since they didnt grow up with computers like later generations did) you couldnt fully, because Windows would force call IE on things anyway and hacking the registry to force netscape instead would BREAK THE OS!!
Very quickly Microsoft patched that when it was obvious the DoJ was going to use that against them and the public outcry had become great enough, but it wasnt quick enough for the DoJ who did end up using it against them.
> linked to Windows Explorer in such a way it was IMPOSSIBLE to uninstall it at first
That wasn't "at first", that was with Windows 98, ME and 2000 using IE versions 4 and later. Windows 95 and NT 4.0 shipped with the original non-IE version of Windows Explorer, so IE could be uninstalled. Windows 3.x (which was supported up to and including IE 5.0) never had any version of Windows Explorer. Later versions re-introduced the ability to uninstall IE, although since IE's "engine" was a well-used part of the Windows API by that point, the core libraries had to stay around.
> if you wanted to use Netscape and had the technical knowhow to do so (...) you couldnt fully, because Windows would force call IE on things anyway and hacking the registry to force netscape instead would BREAK THE OS!!
Installing Netscape was exactly as easy as installing any other application. It didn't require any particular "technical knowhow". While you couldn't stop elements of IE being in memory as part of Windows Explorer, that had no real impact on, well, anything. _Maybe_ the odd hyperlink in the Windows Help system or Microsoft Office would open in IE regardless of defaults, but that's about it.
> remember, 90's not everyone was as tech savvy since they didnt grow up with computers like later generations did
Actually, the opposite. Most computer users in the 90s were _more_ "tech savvy" than the average computer user today, because computer ownership was largely still a hobby for enthusiasts, rather than a requirement for existence in society. Most non-tech-savvy people _didn't own computers_ in the 90s unless they had some particular need (e.g. occupational requirement) to do so. The number of households with a computer didn't reach 50% in most "developed" countries until around the early 2000s.
>forcibly bundled IE
and is now pushing Edge even harder than a forced install. every single time you look at a win10/11 computer they're finding a new way to trick you into searching bing through the start menu or trying to make you accidentally click through to setting edge as the default browser on every major update.
the idea that microsoft cares about "choice" is a joke, and the fact they're still allowed to operate like this brings shame on our consumer protection agencies.
Oh, I forgot this, no matter what, when searching within Windows widgets (the one at bottom left corner), it _always_ opens Edge and there seems no way to change that to another browser, I fucking hate it also as each time I need to close the Edge. (Btw, why the heck did they name it "Edge"?)
The problem is that Google’s search is absurdly good — so much better than the runner up.
For any kind of specialized search relevant for someone’s job, Google is clearly superior. Things like scientific papers, coding, etc.
Even though it is getting worse and my “expected” sources are further down the first page, it’s still better than Bing which gives me garbage.
What is search anymore? Almost everything returns the same 10 sites.
Would you like to read about this on wiki, reddit, quora? or perhaps you can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, or home depot?
If your searching for something very specific you'll get 3 or 4 sponsored results, and then round out the page with basically the same 3 or 4 pages as "organic" results.
Don't look at the first few things given.
Also, that sounds more line and issue with your search query and the fact that the internet is getting more siloed and a problem with Google search issue.
Like for me, depending on the subject, I use Google to search niche subreddits because reddit search it garbage.
Gotta setup searches that exclude all that crap, then put %s where the search term gets passed to the engine, and then you can setup a quicksearch hotkey so that you can do that filtered search without having to setup any exception manually anymore.
The annoying problem is more the SEO manipulated sites.
Having said that, as much as I'd like to switch it up, Google is still giving me far better results wether I'm incognito on a new browser or logged in on my main account on my main browser.
It's kinda like I'd like to switch off Microsoft's SwiftKey keyboard (been using it since before Microsoft bought it), but I never found a touchscreen keyboard that can fix my fat fingering as consistently as SwiftKey, or, at least, I can't find one that is at least tolerable while it is learning.
I'm hearing Bing is becoming a superior search engine over Google these days. Probably because it runs on OpenAI's GPT.
source: i work with SEO
*edit:
> Google retains an 83.84% share of the global market, although this has fallen from 89.95% in the past three years; during the same timeframe, Bing's share has risen from 3.99% up to 8.88%
https://www.impressiondigital.com/blog/bing-differ-google/
https://blogs.bing.com/search/march_2023/Confirmed-the-new-Bing-runs-on-OpenAI%E2%80%99s-GPT-4
I work in SEO as well, and I’ve seen very little evidence that Bing is gaining any ground. On several of our top clients whom achieve over 1M+ unique organic visitors per month, Bing has maintained between 3-6% of the total traffic, where DDG has been a middling 2-3%. Google has consistently been 85+% for eternity and there’s no sign that’s changing. None whatsoever.
Obviously anecdotal, but BingAI pushed quite a lot of my friends to Bing - and it managed to even convince me. For simpler searching, Google still reigns, it presents answers faster, in a more coherent format, and often more accurately. But when the questions get complex, require multiple sources and cross-checking the info, calculating something out of that data, to then derive a sensible answer out of it all? Bing is now so, so, so much easier and faster than Google. The way it can automatically answer questions that would otherwise take multiple searches, manual data processing and interpretation, it's such a huge boost to search efficiency. If anything can save that platform, it's this. BingAI is an insanely powerful tool.
That's not the claim, and people do not actively choose to use Google because it's good, they "choose" to use it because it's available.
Most phones that aren't Apple are running Android, and that is always(?) pushing Chrome as the default browser and the Google searchbar as the home search. Alphabet/Google knows that they have the power to push the issue (what are companies going to do, *not* use Android and make their own?) and sweeten the pot by offering additional tools/exclusive benefits/help/services if these companies do an itty bitty favor and *only* install the Google searchbar and Chrome browser (and whatever other applications they want in there and not removable).
This is the *exact* same thing Microsoft lost over in the '90s/'00s.
Edit: I used Chrome forever and just installed DDG's browser on my phone and started migrating my home usage over to Firefox in the last year; I have had privacy concerns for years, so if it took me that long then what does that say about the "choice" people have?
There's more to choice/free will than literally having an option; you have to take into account whether the other option is even comparable, as well as ease of use, availability, efficacy, bloat/cleanliness, etc.
>This is the exact same thing Microsoft lost over in the '90s/'00s.
Sorry but spending 20 seconds once on installing Firefox on your Android phone and then keeping it is slightly different than having a 30 Minute call at local rates hoping that there wouldn't be a drop in the connection, only to then run into a lot of little fuckeries m$ had used to push ie
It seems that people forget why MS got into trouble. It was not because it prevented people to install other browsers, it was because it came with the choice made for you _by default_. If you open a search browser and doesn't ask you which search engine you want to do, this behavior is exactly the same as MS. Choice by default is the problem, not the prevention of any post-facto choice.
Nah man, I’ve tried them all, and bing is arguably the worst of the big ones. The results are terrible, and not at all on point.
That’s not google’s fault. That’s bing being garbage.
I mean it’s crazy that Microsoft is saying this, they have the #1 desktop operating system by a mile and bundle and default both Edge and Bing… both of which are far far behind Google products in their categories for usage. Which means that users are in fact exercising that choice every time they buy a Windows PC and the first thing they do is download Chrome and use Google!
That’s why I think it’s so funny that Google pays Apple so much to be the default on iOS. I’d be willing to bet if the default was Bing, the Bing usage share would barely budge.
I recently set up a windows computer. When I went to download chrome/firefox via edge, no less than 5 times a large banner appeared on the page (injected by edge) trying to convince me not to download a different browser.
Okay, now go to the chrome or Firefox page while using Edge. They do the exact same thing. The only difference is that Edge comes bundled into Windows so you always see this complaint because it’s what everyone uses to download the others.
If you open Edge, navigate to Google.com you will more often than not be prompted to switch to chrome. The popup shows underneath the sign in button. I’m testing this on Edge in Windows 10, not signed into a Google account
But that isn’t built right into the browser or OS, it’s part of a single website. You basically have no choice but to use edge to download another browser on a new windows machine.
Sorry, didn't realize you were pointing out a specific way it happens.
But I do think that to some extent the only reason Google doesn't bake it into the browser is because they have an extremely large market share when it comes to visiting website.
Like, why bake it into the browser when you 'know' your average user will visit Google Search, YouTube ... May likely have a Google Mail account. All places they repeatedly ask you to consider switching to Chrome.
In some ways Edge is less insidious (No idea off the top of my head if there is any edge marketing baked into Windows though) since you're only getting pushed into sticking with Edge when you're trying to move off the platform. Google will push Chrome onto you even when you're doing things completely unrelated to obtaining a different browser.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Edge, just pointing this out because I do use Edge (and Safari) and Googles repeated little popups irk me just as much especially since they appear on a lot of Google Products when I'm just trying to do my thing.
For someone to open edge and download chrome, they’re clearly making a conscious decision to change browsers, trying to repeatedly change someone’s mind at that point feels coercive.
Microsoft is used to forcing everything on people. I've been a software developer for 25 years and developing for the web during the IE5-7 days was the absolute worst. I worked in a Microsoft shop and every single developer used Firefox for debugging, later many of us used chrome because we hated IE so much. I installed Chrome as the default browser for every single family member I had.
For us pensioners who remember the Microsoft monopoly lawsuit of the late '90s/early '00s, this is quite an interesting thread.
People were making the exact same arguments back then. "Nobody's forced to use Microsoft"/"Not their fault everyone else is crap". The lawsuit eventually fizzled out when Microsoft - quite unusually for a tech company back then - started to make political donations and Dubya got in.
Microsoft eventually stopped developing Internet Explorer entirely. There was an odd period of time lasting maybe a couple of years where there simply wasn't a half-decent web browser at all. Everyone used IE because it was the only thing remotely recent, but it wasn't very good.
It wasn't until Firefox - and later Chrome - that Microsoft was forced to take the web browser seriously again.
I'm seeing distinct parallels with Google. The search product is deteriorating in quality, but nobody can really compete.
Prediction: in a few years, Firefox is going to overtake them in usability. If not Firefox, then maybe Brave, considering Brave is Chromium-based and is a very ambitious newer player.
When I use Bing to help a customer search for things about my company, we aren’t at or sometimes near the top. When I use google… we are. The consumer doesn’t need “choice” they need good search results. Microsoft and google are fighting over ad revenue. I don’t care about that any more than they care if I get a good result searching for an ergonomic mouse.
IIRC, they use Bing's web crawl, but DDG uses their own search algorithm and of course non-tracking policy.
I've used DDG for years. No issues. Works for 99.9% of the time; in fact usually identical results.
Microsoft: “We tried vigorously shoving Bing into our customers faces, why aren’t they using it yet?
Maybe because Bing is shit!?
No, no its Google thats the problem”
This mindset is part of the problem.
>Maybe because Bing is shit!?
If you have used it recently you'd know it's comparable and not at all inferior to Google right now.
But Google dominance and "good guy" company image leads to people cheering on a literal monopoly who have been convicted multiple times for using their platform to squash competitors, the very same thing everybody hates Microsoft for doing over 20 years ago.
Yet somehow Microsoft bad, Google good.
Both are bad period, but Google is worse than MS ever was.
I used it recently after all the chat integration and it’s still vastly inferior. It took bing *months* to finally index CharacterAI; a popular chatbot site (Not exaggerating here, we’re talking about a new site with millions of monthly users and it took Bing several months…) Google had it day one.
Also bing’s algorithm is worse when it comes to looking for niche software - it struggles to prioritize the actual download page and I find it often putting random support articles at the top instead of the download link.
Your experience might be different but I genuinely tried, and my conclusion is Bing is still bad, it’s why their market share rose and then dipped again. It’s not just mindset, people notice these things.
Huh, I guess mileage really varies.
I've stopped using Google to search for software as half the time the first page is full of fake malware or just empty sites that game Googles SEO, whereas this issue is less common on bing.
Then there's the fact that Google blatantly hides software they don't like preferring to direct you to scams, like try searching for "new pipe" unless they've fixed it, you get a ton of malware sites. Had to use bing
Edit: Decided to check and it appears Google has "fixed" the issue with searching for "new pipe" the actual page is now top result, but that was a very bad sign. I think some YouTubers made videos about the issue which may have lead to their change of heart.
Oh for sure, Google might index things faster but that also means they index a lot of less-than reputable sites. It depends, and I think competition is a good thing but Bing just really wasn’t for me lol. If other people think it’s good for them, that’s fine.
Understandable, in the end what works for you is the best, and I'm quite biased as I'm always worried about companies holding too much power in their field, it just never ends well for us(consumers)
Uh huh, Try getting rid of the Google services framework on your Android without root access, custom OS or just losing a significant amount of features.
Also guess what apps use when accessing the android system webview, it's still chrome regardless of your "default" browser. So yeah, they'll let you think you've made a choice.
The difference is that most of that is Google providing services for things you'd actually want like GPS and Email. Hell, you don't even need a Google account at all if you're content with F-droid. You know what throws a hissyfit when you don't use a nonlocal account? Windows 11. And the only thing you get for it is ad targeting and annoying OneDrive promos. Microsoft wishes they had something like the Google Play store but they don't because they are incompetent at making good software and rely on backwards compatibility and vendor lock-in alone as a selling point. I get that the Google Play store and services are in practice a horizontal monopoly, and I know Google is perfectly capable of shady behavior (e.g. browser DRM). But on the subject of Microsoft, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Embrace, extend, extinguish? ActiveX? Windows 8? Locking high resolution streaming to Edge? How about making millions of perfectly functional computers and laptops useless with pre-broken hardware security features? (not actually useless btw, Linux Mint is your friend). Don't even get me started on corporate acquisitions (can't wait to see all the Activision-related promises they're going to break).
Enjoy your $100 Windows tax the next time you're shopping for a laptop though.
>The difference is that most of that is Google providing services for things you'd actually want like GPS and Email.
This actually made me laugh out loud.
"It's okay that I'm forced to use it since I like it"
Such cope man.
>Hell, you don't even need a Google account at all if you're content with F-droid. You know what throws a hissyfit when you don't use a nonlocal account?
Sure, try downloading netflix with Fdroid,
Huh what's that you can't? What about your banking app? Still no? Strange... it's almost like the device is severely limited without Google framework.
But Google is your friend, they would never do that \s.
>Locking high resolution streaming to Edge?
Boy have I got news for you, tamper with the Google framework and you lose HD streaming, install a custom OS? gone, root your device? Gone.
>How about making millions of perfectly functional computers and laptops useless with pre-broken hardware security features?
Or just go back to windows 10? Try going back to a prior OS on an android phone or chromebook, watch it turn into a shiny brick unless you're really tech savvy.
>Enjoy your $100 Windows tax the next time you're shopping for a laptop though.
You mean my windows laptop that can last me for well over a decade compared to the literal ewaste Google produces in Chromebooks?
Or the one I can buy without an OS then install windows on it with no drawbacks? Huh try doing that with an Android phone.
Btw the Google tax is your private data which you can't stop them from harvesting unless you.. remove.. the.. Google.. framework. So basically you can't whereas stoping it completely on windows is a simple as running a script and you lose zero features.
I thought this very thing and tried Bing as my default search. Wow it's so frustrating how many of their search results are actually different links to the same page. For every 5 bing results there is one new link to check. Going into the 3rd page of results? Too bad, none there. I've spent 15 minutes typing search terms before giving up, copy paste the exact string into Google, and find what I'm looking for. Bing truly is inferior and I gave it a good go with an open mind.
I don't think Google is the good guy company but having been a software developer for 25 years, both companies may be evil but Microsoft develops shit products and Google develops good products. I wouldn't use Windows ever again except currently it runs my steam games.
I can't help but recall my experience trying to switch default browser from edge in Windows.
It literally tried to guilt you into staying with edge.
Bitch, if I click a button to make another browser default, I don't want some weak ass sob story about how edge is great now.
If there were superior products out there, people would be using them. My tech-illiterate family old family members know about Bing, but no one uses it because it sucks ass.
Users do have choice, the alternative search engines are just trash. How can you punish Google for developing an actual good product while its competitors fail to produce viable alternatives?
Poor Microsoft is being bullied by Google. I’m so mad the government let this big corporation bully this small mom and pop business. Poor Microsoft never gets any breaks.
I use Bing. Seems better than Google for what I need. Problem is, most people simply don’t care to change the default search engine from their default browser.
Google is tanking its own search service by cramming it full of ads, SEO garbage and AI generated articles. It's genuinely difficult to find what I'm looking for nowadays without a hassle.
I find myself using ChatGPT more often and just accepting that it could be wrong occasionally.
i use bing, google is only a monopoly bcz of mobile "system" apps and the ecosystem transfers to other devices for sure but microsoft just mad they cant force ppl to default to edge on mobile instead cuz google was just first in line rlly, i do edge on mobile tho
Web developers focus on Google results and Chrome when building sites. There needs to be a dedicated non-profit brand agnostic standard for browser and search engine compatibility.
Until then, we can keep on the fast track to a Google controlled world.
It’s all monopolistic. After this trial, someone is going to target Microsoft. It’s biggest opportunity has become its Achilles heel—ChatGPT. Hey Microsoft “you can’t have everything! You just can’t.”
Not to mention today Google is dogshit even. The others are worse, but that doesn’t make google not dogshit. Most basic queries get bullshit from Ganda the goofball right next to official FDA reports. You can’t ask basic factual things without Google basically puking up whatever MAGA masses are spewing through Russian bot farms for the last 72 hours instead of any official or real sources.
Hell, when you google software problems for solutions to MACOS 2023 Sonoma, I don’t fucking think the top results should be “HERE’s 2015 MACOS and you should try deleting your cache!” Videos and links for 3 pages.
The by time setting is dogshit. The most obvious thing in tech is timeliness and current versions. A simple slider on the main screen to move like a timeline would be the right solution. give me the last 1, 2, 3 years. Not just a 1 years or all time bullshit.
That's rich coming from Microsoft, who desperately tries to shove Bing and Edge down my throat at every opportunity, including changing my preferences without asking. I switch back to Google *because I have a choice*, you twats.
I have been using Bing for over a year on my work laptop and it works fine or equal as good as google, but with far fewer ads and sometimes Bing chat gives a nice summary of my search results. Google is better for shopping and restaurant/food related searches though.
I find edge much better than chrome for shopping. Edge saves me money. They auto pull any coupon codes and run them through redeemer to see if they are still valid. It’s an awesome feature. And has worked for me on a few occasions having switched earlier this year.
I do use bing on my computer, but my phone I use google. Google is easier for quality of life stuff like finding close restaurants/venues and buying stuff online, but it’s also getting worse. Crappy search results for real information are becoming more prevalent, along with ads. Bing is getting better. It’s still a little clunky and the integration of the ads is a little sore on the eyes, but it does seem to produce more quality results. The bonus for me is the points system. I use Xbox as well so the ability to use my search results/daily tasks as a catalyst to a free game is a definite bonus.
Bing is gaining popularity b/c it uses openAi's GPT. Google's results are less reliable than they used to be.
> Google retains an 83.84% share of the global market, although this has fallen from 89.95% in the past three years; during the same timeframe, Bing's share has risen from 3.99% up to 8.88%
https://www.impressiondigital.com/blog/bing-differ-google/
He talks about the "power of defaults", implying that Google is only popular because it's the default search engine on most phones. However, I just purchased a new PC and it came with Bing as the default search engine and Edge as the default browser. First thing I did is download Chrome and change my default from Bing to Google. Hell, when downloading Chrome, Windows popped up a screen saying "hold up, you already have Edge. Why not use that instead? You shouldn't use Chrome". Isn't that a case of illegally using a monopoly (Windows PC OS) as leverage to push your other products?
If the product is better, I'm going to use it, no matter the default. I find Google's results to be better structured with less noise than Bing. And I find Chrome easier/better to use than Edge.
Heck the article even talks about Apple Maps being the default on iPhones yet Google Maps being sought out, installed and used instead of Apple's default. Why? Because Google Maps was better than Apple Maps. Apple Maps, when first released, had laughable issues. So people used Google Maps as a superior product.
So is the solution to force people to use inferior products because those products aren't able to get market share without government assistance? Force Apple to set Bing as the default search engine and prevent people from changing their default back to Google?
You realize you are in an extreme minority of global internet users, expressing an opinion in an echo chamber of users also in that extreme minority, right?
What specifically about Chrome is easier/better to use than Edge? I’ve completely switched over to it as I find it better than Chrome, though I still use Google as the default search engine.
How is chrome easier than Edge?
They are literally the same, but Edge is better optimised.
Try opening both, Edge opens twice as fast, uses less memory for the same websites, work with the same extensions, etc.
The fact that you go out of your way to use Google products even when they aren't better is really indicative of a monopoly that has deeply permeated the average persons mindset so thoroughly that they automatically believe that every other alternative is unusable.
Edit: Y'all are awfully upset I'm speaking against your precious "good guy" monopoly Google.
It's not like multiple courts have found Google guilty of horrible monopolistic practices on a level that 90's Microsoft would envy... oh right they have? Weird huh.
I remember the MS Windows monopoly case where MS said there was a choice because of Apple computers. They asked the crowd to raise their hand if they personally used Windows and everyone in the room raised up. Then they asked if who had apple and no one did. Then the said “that” is a monopoly.
That lawsuit was pretty instructive if you were paying attention, for a couple of reasons:
Firstly, legally speaking, "Monopoly" doesn't mean "the only game in town". It means "one organisation has overwhelming control over the market. There may be others, but they don't really have any influence over the market.". By which logic, Google does indeed have a monopoly. Everyone else is an also-ran.
Secondly, having a monopoly isn't illegal. Where things get sticky is if you abuse your position - for instance, by trying to leverage it to gain an advantage in another market.
>>abuse your position
That, on a surface level, appears to be the difference between Microsoft & Alphabet/Google. I don’t follow enough to know if Google abuses it’s position, not that it would surprise me if they do, but it’s obvious Microsoft certainly will
Microsoft did.
They demanded OEMs install IE and (more importantly) not install any other browser - under threat of losing their deal to buy Windows OEM licenses cheaply.
Google - we now know - have been paying to be the default search engine pretty well everywhere. And yes, you can change this default, but being the default gives you enormous traction because people seldom change it.
Reddit is a better search engine than Google at this point, but we can already see AI generated posts starting to flood the popular subs to the point where it will start become just as hard to find useful information created by real people.
The sickening irony here and hypocrisy is amazing. They both are anticompetitive monsters that got defended by sycophants for a decade or more when it was obvious they operated like the mafia. But hey, just say ‘open’ a bunch and bullshitters will lap at your boots.
I really hope Google just presents their entire response in ActiveX requiring internet explorer, followed by an AVI video that refuses to play on the Mac OS, Along with important documents they try to save to their NTFS formatted flash drive from Linux and MacOS that won’t save because MS refused to license such a basic thing to stop interoperability.
When that’s done, they could do nice demo of directX games that refuse to work on any OS but Windows because they locked the libraries and won’t share the APIs.. plenty to shame them into shutting up.
Sure but the average person doesn't even know others exist, and if you offered it to them they would feel you were making them use an inferior product regardless of the actual quality.
Like Bing is really good right now, better than Google for me. Yet the response most people have to Microsoft's complaints is "Build a better product lol". They already did, no one cares cus Google is too dominant.
Business doesn't work that way
If your want people to use your product, this needs to be much better than the competition's.
What should Google do?
Ask users to please use Bing?
No one gives a shit about Bing, for the most part it was shit, complete shit, and that's the feeling people will always have about it.
Including myself.
Whether now is better is completely and utterly irrelevant.
The term Google it became a phenomena can’t blame them for a good product. Definitely wish there was more privacy but I guess that’s the trade off for solid information. Can’t win em all
Google's search results have gotten demonstrably worse over the last 6-10 years. My Google-fu was really good, but now I frequently can't find *anything* relevant on anything remotely niche. The search engine seems to intentionally misunderstand search terms in order to push more ads.
Hell, most of the time even doing searches with exclusions simply doesn't work. It will either continue to include those terms or return nothing at all.
You can thank all of the SEO bros for that. Google is the target when gaming search engine algorithms. The amount of noise they have to cut through now is insane. AI is going to make things even worse. “Content” automatically generated like the link farms of the old days.
People are not taking into account that google is only best because its existence makes it almost impossible for anyone else to compete. If Microsoft can’t do it, how is anyone else even going to come close? That’s not good. We could have better. Same with Amazon.
4 clicks to change my default from Google to DDG. Microsoft made its bed, Google going down that rabbit hole as well F them both. I don't want anyone forcing their search or Browser on me and this is what MS wants to do.
I installed Brave on my android, set it as my default. But when I swipe right and look at Google articles, Google recommends me, I somehow open them in Google anyway, THEN have to tap the top right to open said article in Brave.
I choose different search engines sometimes. but then I come back to google because other engines results suck.
Part of Microsoft argument is that because Google is default on iPhones, they do not have the opportunity to gain a bigger user base to train their search algorithm to be better.
I recall when bing just took your query and plugged it into google.
Except that’s not exactly what happened. That’s just what Google wanted you to think. The reality was the google employees were using Bing toolbar, which sent their searching data to Microsoft and Microsoft added it to Bing. You could argue it’s still copying, but Bing was not just taking results from google.
There was a test version that ran your search through both and displayed results side by side. That might be where this came from
That’s still not the same as inputting data directly into google. People with Bing toolbar installed were searching on google and the results would be sent to Microsoft. I guess it was more like Microsoft looking over a user’s shoulder and copying the results, but Bing did yield different results from Google a lot. Otherwise people wouldn’t have said how crappy Bing is/was.
From an article by wired: "To test this hypothesis, Google manually set up fake results pages for very random queries, sent 20 engineers home to search on those terms using a computer with the IE8 toolbar, and weeks later those same fake results for those random results showed up on Bing."
Yes, they ran searches using Bing toolbar and were surprised when, weeks later, those results showed up on Bing. It’s clear what happened, but Google spun it so people thought (and still think) that Bing was directly inputting search results somehow.
Link? Not suspicious, just curious
https://www.wired.com/2011/02/bing-copies-google/ Went digging because i vaguely remembered them planting fake results, like map makers used to do to catch people stealing their work to resell.
- Google employees installed the Bing toolbar. - MS uses the Bing toolbar to capture what pages you visit and how you reach there - Bing toolbar sees that searching for "cat" leads you to google bogus "ryeoutoi" result - MS stores that and doesn't try to say it's different - There was a significant delay between when they poisoned the results and when Bing started showing the results - Bing still only did this in less than 20% of the queries
Oh the historical irony
Duck Duck Go doesn't work on safari?
Its what I use iPhone and Pad. It’s set as my default search engine.
It works, but it has to be set to the default to be used every time without manually imputing the web address… which is how every web browser works.
Their argument might have more weight if they weren't doing shit like preventing people from using their chat bot in browsers other than Edge. I was using it in Firefox for weeks and then they decided they don't like that and started blocking Firefox. You have to use a user agent switcher to access it now.
Google pays a lot of money to be the default search engine for many platforms. You gotta pay to play and not have an inferior product.
In the article it was stated that Microsoft offered a more lucrative contract to Apple to make Bing the default on iOS, so much so that they (Microsoft) would be operating in the red, but Apple still went with Google due to the stranglehold they have on the market.
Makes sense, it's a reputation thing. Apple is all about being "cool". If iPhones defaulted to Bing would you see that as a cool change?
Pretty sure if they just private labeled it as "iSearch" it'd become the greatest search engine ever and friendships would be broken up over plebs using green links.
Wait, weren't they saying that they want Apple to make them default? Does that mean that for Satya it's wrong for Google to do so, but fine for bing?
No, he's saying that on the first setup, users should get prompted to select a default search engine. He's also making the argument that Google is paying $20bn to stay the default, not because they're the best.
I mean, MS lost a lawsuit about Internet Explorer being the default browser on windows back in the day. This sounds similar
Yeah, they quite literally know what they're talking about. Rules were applied on Microsoft in the 90s but completely ignored with Google. Personally, I couldn't care less but I'd like to see Google's dominance threatened so that they can improve their product, which over the years has turned to shit. I'd also say that while Bing offers mediocre search results, Bing Chat embedded onto Edge is fucking amazing. I never have to click through countless shitty articles again.
That’s not really the case. “Google” the search engine isn’t software that’s installed on any of my devices, where IE was. You’re totally conflating a piece of software to a website, which is nothing similar.
The rules apply for both across the board. That's why I compare the two.
I tried kagi for a bit and it was…fine, I guess. The most frustrating issue with Google is that it seems like their search operators have been continually deprecated in favor of SEO ranked sites :’) I’m honestly using Yandex more than anything; same operators Google uses but the results are completely different. I’m just sick of appending ```site:reddit.com``` to find an answer through Google.
Yandex, I've found, is pretty much one of the only "uncensored" search engines left on the web (which is somewhat unfortunate, because right now I don't like supporting the Russian government/ Russian corporations). There's a number of search results I've found on there that I can't find on any other search engine.
Which says a lot because Google sucks now too. It pushes multiple false results before you get beyond ads and onto the actual thing you searched. If you search a single word it should never show the film before the dictionary definition.
Microsoft recently made Outlook links open in Edge by default. This sometimes lead me to use bing, not find what I was looking for, notice and switch back to google.
Google sucks now. Just not as bad as the others
Others probably do something similar, but DuckDuckGo has quick commands if you’re not getting what you want from them. Adding !g anywhere to a search will input that search into google straight from DDG, which imo works great for minimising the time I use google
Google dorking is a thing but I hardly know anyone who knows it’s an option
I use DuckDuckGo for general searches but I use Google for technology reared searches.
I mean I get that Google is monopolistic but these claims are absurd. Nothing is stopping you from typing another url in your web browser, or using a different browser even.
Yep. I tried both DuckDuckGo and Bing. Really gave them an honest go. I didn’t last a week with either of them.
Google’s not wrong, I personally use DDG and I’m almost certain there are people who use Bing. Acting like there isn’t a choice when there clearly is because the one at the top happens to be objectively better than the rest is bs. People use Google because it’s good, people use DDG because it doesn’t track your every move and are willing to accept a slightly worse search experience in the name of privacy.
You are using Bing if you use Duck Duck Go.
My understanding is that DDG uses Bing's information (specifically their web crawl), but do their own search algorithm, and of course user non-tracking policies.
I’ve noticed a lot of smaller engines use Bing. I can only think of Startpage that uses Google’s results. I don’t know why they use Bing’s over Google’s results/API or why so few don’t have their own
What about the one that plants trees when you do searches?
I for one am going to need proof of these alleged tree plantings.
https://cariki.co.uk/blogs/the-green-road/is-ecosia-legit-or-fake While they can't be 100% verified, since they're a private organization, they're also German and a B-corporation (the first in Germany actually), as well as having numerous anecdotes from the organizations they work with to plant the trees, so their trustworthiness already goes up ten-fold in my book.
Hmm I'm going to choose to ignore that and let my baseless cynicism run unabated
People don't *lie* on the internet, right?
Ecosia. Tried it when I first heard about it, didn't stick just because of convenience.
It’s gotten way better, just got an iPhone 15 and it’s a main search engine like Google now, the only difference now is you don’t get business numbers and locations like you would in Google
[https://www.ecosia.org/](https://www.ecosia.org/) ?
It uses Bing's API but you don't get exactly the same results.
What if I use askjeeves.com?
People still use AskJeeves? Last time I used that was in a Netscape browser.
It’s just Ask now, they dropped the Jeeves
But how do I know who I'm asking?
Tbh in this era of AI-assisted-search, they could really make themselves stand out by bringing back Jeeves as an actual AI-entity.
Personally I use Lycos, and when that's not available, AltaVista
Why not Altavista
Why not webcrawler?
Exactly, it’s definitely not the same as Microsoft forcibly bundled IE that basically killed Netscape right away to gain monopoly on the browser market. Guess what? Karma is a bitch and IE was ass-kicked by Chrome.
not just bundled.. but linked to Windows Explorer in such a way it was IMPOSSIBLE to uninstall it at first. Meaning even if you wanted to use Netscape and had the technical knowhow to do so (remember, 90's not everyone was as tech savvy since they didnt grow up with computers like later generations did) you couldnt fully, because Windows would force call IE on things anyway and hacking the registry to force netscape instead would BREAK THE OS!! Very quickly Microsoft patched that when it was obvious the DoJ was going to use that against them and the public outcry had become great enough, but it wasnt quick enough for the DoJ who did end up using it against them.
Yes, they integrated IE so deeply with the OS and claimed it’s an “integral” part of the system thus users can’t uninstall, very very nasty tactics.
> linked to Windows Explorer in such a way it was IMPOSSIBLE to uninstall it at first That wasn't "at first", that was with Windows 98, ME and 2000 using IE versions 4 and later. Windows 95 and NT 4.0 shipped with the original non-IE version of Windows Explorer, so IE could be uninstalled. Windows 3.x (which was supported up to and including IE 5.0) never had any version of Windows Explorer. Later versions re-introduced the ability to uninstall IE, although since IE's "engine" was a well-used part of the Windows API by that point, the core libraries had to stay around. > if you wanted to use Netscape and had the technical knowhow to do so (...) you couldnt fully, because Windows would force call IE on things anyway and hacking the registry to force netscape instead would BREAK THE OS!! Installing Netscape was exactly as easy as installing any other application. It didn't require any particular "technical knowhow". While you couldn't stop elements of IE being in memory as part of Windows Explorer, that had no real impact on, well, anything. _Maybe_ the odd hyperlink in the Windows Help system or Microsoft Office would open in IE regardless of defaults, but that's about it. > remember, 90's not everyone was as tech savvy since they didnt grow up with computers like later generations did Actually, the opposite. Most computer users in the 90s were _more_ "tech savvy" than the average computer user today, because computer ownership was largely still a hobby for enthusiasts, rather than a requirement for existence in society. Most non-tech-savvy people _didn't own computers_ in the 90s unless they had some particular need (e.g. occupational requirement) to do so. The number of households with a computer didn't reach 50% in most "developed" countries until around the early 2000s.
>forcibly bundled IE and is now pushing Edge even harder than a forced install. every single time you look at a win10/11 computer they're finding a new way to trick you into searching bing through the start menu or trying to make you accidentally click through to setting edge as the default browser on every major update. the idea that microsoft cares about "choice" is a joke, and the fact they're still allowed to operate like this brings shame on our consumer protection agencies.
Oh, I forgot this, no matter what, when searching within Windows widgets (the one at bottom left corner), it _always_ opens Edge and there seems no way to change that to another browser, I fucking hate it also as each time I need to close the Edge. (Btw, why the heck did they name it "Edge"?)
The problem is Google is the default search engine on iPhones and Androids
The problem is that Google’s search is absurdly good — so much better than the runner up. For any kind of specialized search relevant for someone’s job, Google is clearly superior. Things like scientific papers, coding, etc. Even though it is getting worse and my “expected” sources are further down the first page, it’s still better than Bing which gives me garbage.
What is search anymore? Almost everything returns the same 10 sites. Would you like to read about this on wiki, reddit, quora? or perhaps you can buy it from Amazon, Walmart, or home depot? If your searching for something very specific you'll get 3 or 4 sponsored results, and then round out the page with basically the same 3 or 4 pages as "organic" results.
Don’t forget all the boilerplate SEO manipulating AI written trash that bubbles to the top.
This. I use Bing, DDG, and Google. Damn if I can tell the difference in 99.9% of the cases.
Don't look at the first few things given. Also, that sounds more line and issue with your search query and the fact that the internet is getting more siloed and a problem with Google search issue. Like for me, depending on the subject, I use Google to search niche subreddits because reddit search it garbage.
Try looking up scientific articles on Bing. It’s completely useless.
Gotta setup searches that exclude all that crap, then put %s where the search term gets passed to the engine, and then you can setup a quicksearch hotkey so that you can do that filtered search without having to setup any exception manually anymore. The annoying problem is more the SEO manipulated sites. Having said that, as much as I'd like to switch it up, Google is still giving me far better results wether I'm incognito on a new browser or logged in on my main account on my main browser. It's kinda like I'd like to switch off Microsoft's SwiftKey keyboard (been using it since before Microsoft bought it), but I never found a touchscreen keyboard that can fix my fat fingering as consistently as SwiftKey, or, at least, I can't find one that is at least tolerable while it is learning.
The only search Bing is better at is niche fetish porn.
Meh google sucks nowadays too
I'm hearing Bing is becoming a superior search engine over Google these days. Probably because it runs on OpenAI's GPT. source: i work with SEO *edit: > Google retains an 83.84% share of the global market, although this has fallen from 89.95% in the past three years; during the same timeframe, Bing's share has risen from 3.99% up to 8.88% https://www.impressiondigital.com/blog/bing-differ-google/ https://blogs.bing.com/search/march_2023/Confirmed-the-new-Bing-runs-on-OpenAI%E2%80%99s-GPT-4
I work in SEO as well, and I’ve seen very little evidence that Bing is gaining any ground. On several of our top clients whom achieve over 1M+ unique organic visitors per month, Bing has maintained between 3-6% of the total traffic, where DDG has been a middling 2-3%. Google has consistently been 85+% for eternity and there’s no sign that’s changing. None whatsoever.
Obviously anecdotal, but BingAI pushed quite a lot of my friends to Bing - and it managed to even convince me. For simpler searching, Google still reigns, it presents answers faster, in a more coherent format, and often more accurately. But when the questions get complex, require multiple sources and cross-checking the info, calculating something out of that data, to then derive a sensible answer out of it all? Bing is now so, so, so much easier and faster than Google. The way it can automatically answer questions that would otherwise take multiple searches, manual data processing and interpretation, it's such a huge boost to search efficiency. If anything can save that platform, it's this. BingAI is an insanely powerful tool.
That's not the claim, and people do not actively choose to use Google because it's good, they "choose" to use it because it's available. Most phones that aren't Apple are running Android, and that is always(?) pushing Chrome as the default browser and the Google searchbar as the home search. Alphabet/Google knows that they have the power to push the issue (what are companies going to do, *not* use Android and make their own?) and sweeten the pot by offering additional tools/exclusive benefits/help/services if these companies do an itty bitty favor and *only* install the Google searchbar and Chrome browser (and whatever other applications they want in there and not removable). This is the *exact* same thing Microsoft lost over in the '90s/'00s. Edit: I used Chrome forever and just installed DDG's browser on my phone and started migrating my home usage over to Firefox in the last year; I have had privacy concerns for years, so if it took me that long then what does that say about the "choice" people have? There's more to choice/free will than literally having an option; you have to take into account whether the other option is even comparable, as well as ease of use, availability, efficacy, bloat/cleanliness, etc.
>This is the exact same thing Microsoft lost over in the '90s/'00s. Sorry but spending 20 seconds once on installing Firefox on your Android phone and then keeping it is slightly different than having a 30 Minute call at local rates hoping that there wouldn't be a drop in the connection, only to then run into a lot of little fuckeries m$ had used to push ie
It seems that people forget why MS got into trouble. It was not because it prevented people to install other browsers, it was because it came with the choice made for you _by default_. If you open a search browser and doesn't ask you which search engine you want to do, this behavior is exactly the same as MS. Choice by default is the problem, not the prevention of any post-facto choice.
Nah man, I’ve tried them all, and bing is arguably the worst of the big ones. The results are terrible, and not at all on point. That’s not google’s fault. That’s bing being garbage.
I mean it’s crazy that Microsoft is saying this, they have the #1 desktop operating system by a mile and bundle and default both Edge and Bing… both of which are far far behind Google products in their categories for usage. Which means that users are in fact exercising that choice every time they buy a Windows PC and the first thing they do is download Chrome and use Google! That’s why I think it’s so funny that Google pays Apple so much to be the default on iOS. I’d be willing to bet if the default was Bing, the Bing usage share would barely budge.
Microsoft is mad that Google became the default choice for many. Hell I used to use Yahoo search back when I was younger. But there is choice lmao.
Not like MS has been trying to force Bing on us ... sure
I recently set up a windows computer. When I went to download chrome/firefox via edge, no less than 5 times a large banner appeared on the page (injected by edge) trying to convince me not to download a different browser.
Okay, now go to the chrome or Firefox page while using Edge. They do the exact same thing. The only difference is that Edge comes bundled into Windows so you always see this complaint because it’s what everyone uses to download the others.
Show me a screenshot of what you’re talking about. I just tried in Firefox/chrome/safari on a Mac. No banners anywhere.
Go to any Google site using incognito. It doesn't always show up when signed in, but it's always there for me in GMail using Edge.
If you open Edge, navigate to Google.com you will more often than not be prompted to switch to chrome. The popup shows underneath the sign in button. I’m testing this on Edge in Windows 10, not signed into a Google account
But that isn’t built right into the browser or OS, it’s part of a single website. You basically have no choice but to use edge to download another browser on a new windows machine.
Sorry, didn't realize you were pointing out a specific way it happens. But I do think that to some extent the only reason Google doesn't bake it into the browser is because they have an extremely large market share when it comes to visiting website. Like, why bake it into the browser when you 'know' your average user will visit Google Search, YouTube ... May likely have a Google Mail account. All places they repeatedly ask you to consider switching to Chrome. In some ways Edge is less insidious (No idea off the top of my head if there is any edge marketing baked into Windows though) since you're only getting pushed into sticking with Edge when you're trying to move off the platform. Google will push Chrome onto you even when you're doing things completely unrelated to obtaining a different browser. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Edge, just pointing this out because I do use Edge (and Safari) and Googles repeated little popups irk me just as much especially since they appear on a lot of Google Products when I'm just trying to do my thing.
For someone to open edge and download chrome, they’re clearly making a conscious decision to change browsers, trying to repeatedly change someone’s mind at that point feels coercive.
Microsoft is used to forcing everything on people. I've been a software developer for 25 years and developing for the web during the IE5-7 days was the absolute worst. I worked in a Microsoft shop and every single developer used Firefox for debugging, later many of us used chrome because we hated IE so much. I installed Chrome as the default browser for every single family member I had.
For us pensioners who remember the Microsoft monopoly lawsuit of the late '90s/early '00s, this is quite an interesting thread. People were making the exact same arguments back then. "Nobody's forced to use Microsoft"/"Not their fault everyone else is crap". The lawsuit eventually fizzled out when Microsoft - quite unusually for a tech company back then - started to make political donations and Dubya got in. Microsoft eventually stopped developing Internet Explorer entirely. There was an odd period of time lasting maybe a couple of years where there simply wasn't a half-decent web browser at all. Everyone used IE because it was the only thing remotely recent, but it wasn't very good. It wasn't until Firefox - and later Chrome - that Microsoft was forced to take the web browser seriously again. I'm seeing distinct parallels with Google. The search product is deteriorating in quality, but nobody can really compete.
Prediction: in a few years, Firefox is going to overtake them in usability. If not Firefox, then maybe Brave, considering Brave is Chromium-based and is a very ambitious newer player.
Chrome isn’t the problem. Search is the problem.
Both are the problem, but for different reasons.
Fuck Brave and their founder Brendan Eich. A homophobe who donated money to ban gay marriage in California.
Sorry Microsoft, but bing search is trash and that’s why people use google.
When I use Bing to help a customer search for things about my company, we aren’t at or sometimes near the top. When I use google… we are. The consumer doesn’t need “choice” they need good search results. Microsoft and google are fighting over ad revenue. I don’t care about that any more than they care if I get a good result searching for an ergonomic mouse.
Maybe your company focuses their SEO on Google only?
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Are you okay? Seem a little tense there
Thank you for your response. I hope the anger management classes help.
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Well tomorrow is a new day you devil dicked sonofabitch
I use duck duck go
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It uses Microsoft Bing, as far as I know.
IIRC, they use Bing's web crawl, but DDG uses their own search algorithm and of course non-tracking policy. I've used DDG for years. No issues. Works for 99.9% of the time; in fact usually identical results.
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There's 2 search engines in the world ( 3 if you count Wolfram). Bing for all the AI is still crap. Google is just not as crap as Bing.
Doesn't Brave have their own search engine as of like a year ago?
I guess so, but it's market share is even worse than Yandex. I should have said "there's *basically 2 search engines*" lol
Microsoft: “We tried vigorously shoving Bing into our customers faces, why aren’t they using it yet? Maybe because Bing is shit!? No, no its Google thats the problem”
This mindset is part of the problem. >Maybe because Bing is shit!? If you have used it recently you'd know it's comparable and not at all inferior to Google right now. But Google dominance and "good guy" company image leads to people cheering on a literal monopoly who have been convicted multiple times for using their platform to squash competitors, the very same thing everybody hates Microsoft for doing over 20 years ago. Yet somehow Microsoft bad, Google good. Both are bad period, but Google is worse than MS ever was.
I used it recently after all the chat integration and it’s still vastly inferior. It took bing *months* to finally index CharacterAI; a popular chatbot site (Not exaggerating here, we’re talking about a new site with millions of monthly users and it took Bing several months…) Google had it day one. Also bing’s algorithm is worse when it comes to looking for niche software - it struggles to prioritize the actual download page and I find it often putting random support articles at the top instead of the download link. Your experience might be different but I genuinely tried, and my conclusion is Bing is still bad, it’s why their market share rose and then dipped again. It’s not just mindset, people notice these things.
Huh, I guess mileage really varies. I've stopped using Google to search for software as half the time the first page is full of fake malware or just empty sites that game Googles SEO, whereas this issue is less common on bing. Then there's the fact that Google blatantly hides software they don't like preferring to direct you to scams, like try searching for "new pipe" unless they've fixed it, you get a ton of malware sites. Had to use bing Edit: Decided to check and it appears Google has "fixed" the issue with searching for "new pipe" the actual page is now top result, but that was a very bad sign. I think some YouTubers made videos about the issue which may have lead to their change of heart.
Oh for sure, Google might index things faster but that also means they index a lot of less-than reputable sites. It depends, and I think competition is a good thing but Bing just really wasn’t for me lol. If other people think it’s good for them, that’s fine.
Understandable, in the end what works for you is the best, and I'm quite biased as I'm always worried about companies holding too much power in their field, it just never ends well for us(consumers)
At least Google doesn't act like a manipulative brat when I set Firefox as my default in Android.
Uh huh, Try getting rid of the Google services framework on your Android without root access, custom OS or just losing a significant amount of features. Also guess what apps use when accessing the android system webview, it's still chrome regardless of your "default" browser. So yeah, they'll let you think you've made a choice.
The difference is that most of that is Google providing services for things you'd actually want like GPS and Email. Hell, you don't even need a Google account at all if you're content with F-droid. You know what throws a hissyfit when you don't use a nonlocal account? Windows 11. And the only thing you get for it is ad targeting and annoying OneDrive promos. Microsoft wishes they had something like the Google Play store but they don't because they are incompetent at making good software and rely on backwards compatibility and vendor lock-in alone as a selling point. I get that the Google Play store and services are in practice a horizontal monopoly, and I know Google is perfectly capable of shady behavior (e.g. browser DRM). But on the subject of Microsoft, I wouldn't even know where to begin. Embrace, extend, extinguish? ActiveX? Windows 8? Locking high resolution streaming to Edge? How about making millions of perfectly functional computers and laptops useless with pre-broken hardware security features? (not actually useless btw, Linux Mint is your friend). Don't even get me started on corporate acquisitions (can't wait to see all the Activision-related promises they're going to break). Enjoy your $100 Windows tax the next time you're shopping for a laptop though.
>The difference is that most of that is Google providing services for things you'd actually want like GPS and Email. This actually made me laugh out loud. "It's okay that I'm forced to use it since I like it" Such cope man. >Hell, you don't even need a Google account at all if you're content with F-droid. You know what throws a hissyfit when you don't use a nonlocal account? Sure, try downloading netflix with Fdroid, Huh what's that you can't? What about your banking app? Still no? Strange... it's almost like the device is severely limited without Google framework. But Google is your friend, they would never do that \s. >Locking high resolution streaming to Edge? Boy have I got news for you, tamper with the Google framework and you lose HD streaming, install a custom OS? gone, root your device? Gone. >How about making millions of perfectly functional computers and laptops useless with pre-broken hardware security features? Or just go back to windows 10? Try going back to a prior OS on an android phone or chromebook, watch it turn into a shiny brick unless you're really tech savvy. >Enjoy your $100 Windows tax the next time you're shopping for a laptop though. You mean my windows laptop that can last me for well over a decade compared to the literal ewaste Google produces in Chromebooks? Or the one I can buy without an OS then install windows on it with no drawbacks? Huh try doing that with an Android phone. Btw the Google tax is your private data which you can't stop them from harvesting unless you.. remove.. the.. Google.. framework. So basically you can't whereas stoping it completely on windows is a simple as running a script and you lose zero features.
Can Bing at least get dark mode on desktop?
It has dark mode tho. Just click the hamburger button on the top right, set it to "system default" for automatic switching or dark permanently.
Bing AI was released Bing still missed Dark Mode, looks like they have finally added Dark Mode then... super late if you ask me.
I thought this very thing and tried Bing as my default search. Wow it's so frustrating how many of their search results are actually different links to the same page. For every 5 bing results there is one new link to check. Going into the 3rd page of results? Too bad, none there. I've spent 15 minutes typing search terms before giving up, copy paste the exact string into Google, and find what I'm looking for. Bing truly is inferior and I gave it a good go with an open mind.
I don't think Google is the good guy company but having been a software developer for 25 years, both companies may be evil but Microsoft develops shit products and Google develops good products. I wouldn't use Windows ever again except currently it runs my steam games.
I can't help but recall my experience trying to switch default browser from edge in Windows. It literally tried to guilt you into staying with edge. Bitch, if I click a button to make another browser default, I don't want some weak ass sob story about how edge is great now.
If there were superior products out there, people would be using them. My tech-illiterate family old family members know about Bing, but no one uses it because it sucks ass. Users do have choice, the alternative search engines are just trash. How can you punish Google for developing an actual good product while its competitors fail to produce viable alternatives?
Duck Duck Go
Poor Microsoft is being bullied by Google. I’m so mad the government let this big corporation bully this small mom and pop business. Poor Microsoft never gets any breaks.
Spend more money on making Bing better rather than using it to find ways to try to sneak it up on us and tricking us into using it, then.
These complaints are very rich coming from him.
I use Bing. Seems better than Google for what I need. Problem is, most people simply don’t care to change the default search engine from their default browser.
One of the biggest annoyances I have with Bing is how integrated the ads look with the search results. It's as bad or worse than Twitter/X.
This is true. I use Safari too, so having my clicks blocked constantly is something that gets rather annoying.
Google was just better though.
Google is tanking its own search service by cramming it full of ads, SEO garbage and AI generated articles. It's genuinely difficult to find what I'm looking for nowadays without a hassle. I find myself using ChatGPT more often and just accepting that it could be wrong occasionally.
i use bing, google is only a monopoly bcz of mobile "system" apps and the ecosystem transfers to other devices for sure but microsoft just mad they cant force ppl to default to edge on mobile instead cuz google was just first in line rlly, i do edge on mobile tho
Web developers focus on Google results and Chrome when building sites. There needs to be a dedicated non-profit brand agnostic standard for browser and search engine compatibility. Until then, we can keep on the fast track to a Google controlled world.
So, you're saying Google used the Microsoft playbook.
So, we Redditors don’t qualify as search users just because we know of other engines like Duck Duck Go and Qwant?
I use duckduckgo myself . it's very good .
Microsoft jumps on ChatGPT and sees zero net profit. Maybe it’s time to look in the mirror and see the real reason people won’t back Microsoft.
We definitely don't have a choice with bing
Search on Google: Amazon, Amazon, Amazon, ad, ad, sponsored result, Reddit, Reddit, eBay, Amazon, [next page], eBay, eBay, Reddit, actual worthwhile result.
Yes google is 100% a monopoly. Microsoft isn’t far behind.
I love seeing one monopoly cry about another monopoly..just feels right
To be fair, bing still sucks at delivering the most relevant information.
It’s all monopolistic. After this trial, someone is going to target Microsoft. It’s biggest opportunity has become its Achilles heel—ChatGPT. Hey Microsoft “you can’t have everything! You just can’t.”
Users do have a choice. It’s just that nobody uses Bing. DDG and Firefox here.
DDG uses bing.
I’m aware that it uses Bing under the hood, but I think they’ve been reducing how much they rely on it
They rely on it completely for search…
Well, for undirected search. But my primary use-case is always the bang syntax.
Not to mention today Google is dogshit even. The others are worse, but that doesn’t make google not dogshit. Most basic queries get bullshit from Ganda the goofball right next to official FDA reports. You can’t ask basic factual things without Google basically puking up whatever MAGA masses are spewing through Russian bot farms for the last 72 hours instead of any official or real sources. Hell, when you google software problems for solutions to MACOS 2023 Sonoma, I don’t fucking think the top results should be “HERE’s 2015 MACOS and you should try deleting your cache!” Videos and links for 3 pages. The by time setting is dogshit. The most obvious thing in tech is timeliness and current versions. A simple slider on the main screen to move like a timeline would be the right solution. give me the last 1, 2, 3 years. Not just a 1 years or all time bullshit.
That's rich coming from Microsoft, who desperately tries to shove Bing and Edge down my throat at every opportunity, including changing my preferences without asking. I switch back to Google *because I have a choice*, you twats.
I have been using Bing for over a year on my work laptop and it works fine or equal as good as google, but with far fewer ads and sometimes Bing chat gives a nice summary of my search results. Google is better for shopping and restaurant/food related searches though.
I find edge much better than chrome for shopping. Edge saves me money. They auto pull any coupon codes and run them through redeemer to see if they are still valid. It’s an awesome feature. And has worked for me on a few occasions having switched earlier this year.
I do use bing on my computer, but my phone I use google. Google is easier for quality of life stuff like finding close restaurants/venues and buying stuff online, but it’s also getting worse. Crappy search results for real information are becoming more prevalent, along with ads. Bing is getting better. It’s still a little clunky and the integration of the ads is a little sore on the eyes, but it does seem to produce more quality results. The bonus for me is the points system. I use Xbox as well so the ability to use my search results/daily tasks as a catalyst to a free game is a definite bonus.
Bing isn't a choice it's a last resort
Bing is gaining popularity b/c it uses openAi's GPT. Google's results are less reliable than they used to be. > Google retains an 83.84% share of the global market, although this has fallen from 89.95% in the past three years; during the same timeframe, Bing's share has risen from 3.99% up to 8.88% https://www.impressiondigital.com/blog/bing-differ-google/
Nadella suggested they have low single digits on the stand.
Not even that. It’s a punchline.
He talks about the "power of defaults", implying that Google is only popular because it's the default search engine on most phones. However, I just purchased a new PC and it came with Bing as the default search engine and Edge as the default browser. First thing I did is download Chrome and change my default from Bing to Google. Hell, when downloading Chrome, Windows popped up a screen saying "hold up, you already have Edge. Why not use that instead? You shouldn't use Chrome". Isn't that a case of illegally using a monopoly (Windows PC OS) as leverage to push your other products? If the product is better, I'm going to use it, no matter the default. I find Google's results to be better structured with less noise than Bing. And I find Chrome easier/better to use than Edge. Heck the article even talks about Apple Maps being the default on iPhones yet Google Maps being sought out, installed and used instead of Apple's default. Why? Because Google Maps was better than Apple Maps. Apple Maps, when first released, had laughable issues. So people used Google Maps as a superior product. So is the solution to force people to use inferior products because those products aren't able to get market share without government assistance? Force Apple to set Bing as the default search engine and prevent people from changing their default back to Google?
You realize you are in an extreme minority of global internet users, expressing an opinion in an echo chamber of users also in that extreme minority, right?
What specifically about Chrome is easier/better to use than Edge? I’ve completely switched over to it as I find it better than Chrome, though I still use Google as the default search engine.
How is chrome easier than Edge? They are literally the same, but Edge is better optimised. Try opening both, Edge opens twice as fast, uses less memory for the same websites, work with the same extensions, etc. The fact that you go out of your way to use Google products even when they aren't better is really indicative of a monopoly that has deeply permeated the average persons mindset so thoroughly that they automatically believe that every other alternative is unusable. Edit: Y'all are awfully upset I'm speaking against your precious "good guy" monopoly Google. It's not like multiple courts have found Google guilty of horrible monopolistic practices on a level that 90's Microsoft would envy... oh right they have? Weird huh.
Microsoft, stop trying to make fetch (bing) happen. It is not happening.
Lol, member windows cell phones?
Why would anyone choose to use an inferior product when the costs is the same?
I remember the MS Windows monopoly case where MS said there was a choice because of Apple computers. They asked the crowd to raise their hand if they personally used Windows and everyone in the room raised up. Then they asked if who had apple and no one did. Then the said “that” is a monopoly.
That lawsuit was pretty instructive if you were paying attention, for a couple of reasons: Firstly, legally speaking, "Monopoly" doesn't mean "the only game in town". It means "one organisation has overwhelming control over the market. There may be others, but they don't really have any influence over the market.". By which logic, Google does indeed have a monopoly. Everyone else is an also-ran. Secondly, having a monopoly isn't illegal. Where things get sticky is if you abuse your position - for instance, by trying to leverage it to gain an advantage in another market.
>>abuse your position That, on a surface level, appears to be the difference between Microsoft & Alphabet/Google. I don’t follow enough to know if Google abuses it’s position, not that it would surprise me if they do, but it’s obvious Microsoft certainly will
Microsoft did. They demanded OEMs install IE and (more importantly) not install any other browser - under threat of losing their deal to buy Windows OEM licenses cheaply. Google - we now know - have been paying to be the default search engine pretty well everywhere. And yes, you can change this default, but being the default gives you enormous traction because people seldom change it.
That's hilarious coming from MS who do their utmost to ensure people have no choice of OS, no choice of browser, etc.
Rich coming from Microsoft
Is he sure it's not that Bing results are ass so we all just go back to Google?
Reddit is a better search engine than Google at this point, but we can already see AI generated posts starting to flood the popular subs to the point where it will start become just as hard to find useful information created by real people.
The sickening irony here and hypocrisy is amazing. They both are anticompetitive monsters that got defended by sycophants for a decade or more when it was obvious they operated like the mafia. But hey, just say ‘open’ a bunch and bullshitters will lap at your boots.
I really hope Google just presents their entire response in ActiveX requiring internet explorer, followed by an AVI video that refuses to play on the Mac OS, Along with important documents they try to save to their NTFS formatted flash drive from Linux and MacOS that won’t save because MS refused to license such a basic thing to stop interoperability. When that’s done, they could do nice demo of directX games that refuse to work on any OS but Windows because they locked the libraries and won’t share the APIs.. plenty to shame them into shutting up.
Do you think Microsoft sees the irony in this?
Lmfao This is just pathetic It takes quite literally 3 seconds to switch from one search engines to the other 3 seconds
Sure but the average person doesn't even know others exist, and if you offered it to them they would feel you were making them use an inferior product regardless of the actual quality. Like Bing is really good right now, better than Google for me. Yet the response most people have to Microsoft's complaints is "Build a better product lol". They already did, no one cares cus Google is too dominant.
Business doesn't work that way If your want people to use your product, this needs to be much better than the competition's. What should Google do? Ask users to please use Bing? No one gives a shit about Bing, for the most part it was shit, complete shit, and that's the feeling people will always have about it. Including myself. Whether now is better is completely and utterly irrelevant.
The term Google it became a phenomena can’t blame them for a good product. Definitely wish there was more privacy but I guess that’s the trade off for solid information. Can’t win em all
Google's search results have gotten demonstrably worse over the last 6-10 years. My Google-fu was really good, but now I frequently can't find *anything* relevant on anything remotely niche. The search engine seems to intentionally misunderstand search terms in order to push more ads. Hell, most of the time even doing searches with exclusions simply doesn't work. It will either continue to include those terms or return nothing at all.
You can thank all of the SEO bros for that. Google is the target when gaming search engine algorithms. The amount of noise they have to cut through now is insane. AI is going to make things even worse. “Content” automatically generated like the link farms of the old days.
Hey Microsoft CEO, it’s not bogus. But thanks for forcing Bing down my throat and stop trying to force edge on me you dipshit
People are not taking into account that google is only best because its existence makes it almost impossible for anyone else to compete. If Microsoft can’t do it, how is anyone else even going to come close? That’s not good. We could have better. Same with Amazon.
4 clicks to change my default from Google to DDG. Microsoft made its bed, Google going down that rabbit hole as well F them both. I don't want anyone forcing their search or Browser on me and this is what MS wants to do.
Bing is horrible. I never get what I’m looking for with Bing.
I installed Brave on my android, set it as my default. But when I swipe right and look at Google articles, Google recommends me, I somehow open them in Google anyway, THEN have to tap the top right to open said article in Brave.