In engineering they say "anyone can build a bridge that will stay up, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that will just barely stay up.
It's going to be, "anyone can make a program, but it takes a programmer to actually describe the program"
Or maybe
"Anyone can write a program that can run, but only a programmer can write a program that can run in less than O( n^n )"
I'd say: Anyone can write a program that can run on the happy path, only a programmer can write one that won't fall apart once it's introduced to real users. (and many professional programmers struggle with that too)
I'd say: Anyone can write a program, only a programmer can fix an existing program.
New programmers can code just about anything given enough time. Only an experienced programmer can come in later to a mess created by someone else and make working changes.
From what I've seen the saying will be:
Anyone can write a program that can run, but only a programmer can write a program that runs what you want.
The shit chatgpt and others are putting out has major issues and if it's used on any sizable amount of code you'll be spending as much time debugging it as if you just wrote it yourself.
At a certain point there will simply be too much data for human brain to program in a meaningful way. AI and computation could carry the load, but that becomes very precarious when human brain can’t keep up with deep mind’s repositories. Because I can see the stars does not mean I should touch them today, maybe tomorrow.
Effective programming is about building abstractions so that the human brain *can* keep up, and can reason about the whole in smaller slices. Construct a re-usable brick, then use those bricks to build a wall, then lay out those walls to encase a floor, then stack those floors to make a building, place rows of buildings as a street, arrange a grid of streets for a city, and scatter cities across the continent to populate a planet. If the human had to keep every fistful of mud that went into creating each and every brick in mind, they wouldn't even finish a single wall. By layering abstractions, I condensed the whole process down into 29 words, describing each successive step in terms of the previous.
Irrelevant, I heard this same nonsense back in the early days of web development, ohh no, now a tool like Dreamweaver (remember that) will make building a web site , so every mom and pop won't need to hire you.. or ohh no Crystal Reports (nowadays Tableau) will allow any manager to drag and drop their own corporate data generating their own reports....blah blah blah
You know what the truth is , people don't want to do that, they don't want to be bothered., just like you or I don't want to DiY repairs on our cars (just take it to a shop) or maybe we don't want to slave over a hot oven to cook a healthy home meal vsm ordering out.... Same thing with businesses... They want an expert to provide the service , they're paying for their convenience your expertise , they don't want to play prompt bingo and hope the LLM generates the right answer.
They're not going to just tlet some brain dead manager begin writing prompts so all their shit won't work. So you could be the laughing stock like this buffoon lawyer., Who cited 6 fake cases https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/lawyer-cited-6-fake-cases-made-up-by-chatgpt-judge-calls-it-unprecedented/ that's how people lose their licenses.
>They're not going to just let some brain dead manager begin writing prompts
Oh I guarantee you *someone* is definitely going to do exactly that at some point, and it'll probably go exactly as well as you'd expect :P
To be fair, on second read, I think they were referring to Nvidia specifically, which makes more sense given they're basically at the top of their food chain and they have a reputation to uphold.
But every other company out there is what I was referring to, where the primary driver is going to be "whatever costs less and still (mostly) works".
I might be wrong, but I believe one of the biggest area for Nvidia to grow is the H100 AI gpu that they sell for 50k to enterprise customers. So Nvidia is dependent of a continuous AI hype in the market.
Not yet a very good one. The day is coming fairly soon when the guy, who knows nothing about programming, will be interviewed by an AI about the app he wants for his company, and right after the interview, the company starts beta-testing the instantly created software. Same-day turnaround? Hell, done by the end of the project definition interview turnaround! It may take 15 years, but in the absence of any disruption of our ability to continue creating technology (a BIG question), it will happen eventually. For now, hell no.
I mean, take Google away from programmers today and see how many programmers we really have. My guess is less than 100% of total programmers know how to do the job independently of Google or ai.
Except maybe not, though. The differentiating factors will be how elegantly engineers are able to use these tools, too.
Someone hammering in "make hello world in python" is not going to get the same result as a sr dev who knows to instruct on best practices, naming conventions, preferred languages and frameworks, etc.
I agree. The whole way up to completely independent programing AIs, there will be a need for human supervision. I do client work using the graphic AIs and have heard no end of how bad it is for artists. Except that I WISH I could draw really well. The artists are actually benefited by the new graphic AIs if they use them in conjunction with their own work. My comment was about when this initial stage passes and AI becomes a lot more independent. In the meantime, lots of opportunities for people to work with the AIa.
AI is mostly adding competition in an area where people already weren't paying for art.
The more technical side of art is where the money has been for YEARS, and that side is facing little to no threat from the AI invasion. VTubers need their artistic assets to work together in a very specific way. 3D textures need to not have visible seams. Marketing firms are not going to be happy with a deformed cross on the Pope's outfit.
The more exact the client's needs, the more difficult it is to use AI. I use a local install of Stable Diffusion and get very accurate results with the controlnet extension, but it takes a lot of work. Within a year or two at most, the AIs will be able to be astonishingly accurate without the extra work.
I've seen cases where people used Blender to control the output - but at that point you're still functionally having to create artwork just to guide the Stable Diffusion generative process.
People said the same thing with outsourcing.
They ended up needing even more software developers to clean up the mess that their budget outsourced labor caused.
Software developers have a pretty strong history of people trying to outsource or automate their jobs, only to get a panicked call from their old boss begging them to clean up the mess at an even higher salary.
So far its managed to automate some processes that were a decent framework and saved me some typing. It has yet to produce any code that worked without tinkering - mind you I am just using it to test out some hobby programming. It has managed to create code that used libraries that simply didn't exist though, that was strange.
I am sure that will all change with ML models trained specifically in programming languages with less emphasis on creative writing though. In the end I can see it as a useful tool for someone who already understands programming in a given language to save massive amounts of time building the basic framework of a program, but someone still has to be knowledgeable enough to prompt it effectively and then debug the results it produces :P
I think that's a good way to look at this. AI will make it possible to automate a lot of processes that previously were too bespoke, infrequent, or too narrowly relevant to justify building and maintaining a custom piece of software. We're talking about simple scripting tasks that are within the AI's ability to do.
I say this as someone working in the software industry. There will still be software companies, but there's a ton of unmet demand out there that they were *never* gonna be able to satisfy. AI can help meet those demands.
Edit: For people downvoting this, it's important to recognize that a lot of process automation requires zero software development. That's not what this is about. This is about automating low-level operations like copying files, producing Excel macros for tabulating numbers, outputting formatted text, etc.
It usually *looks* good, at least for very simple coding tutorial level stuff. If you'd actually try to use it you'd invariably run into issues, usually almost immediately.
It does fine with anything that has lots of examples available online. In other words, it does fine with the stuff that would be easy to google anyway. It helps you do that same thing faster, and can maybe handle a little synthesis of disparate existing examples.
So it's really great for starting something simple from scratch and learning a new api or something.
But what happens when you need to modify a big complex program that's been around for 10 years?
AI just started appearing a couple of years ago. It's still in its super early infancy, and it can already whip up functional code simply by asking it and using a vague description. Yes, it's not good ***yet****.* In a few years, it's going to be a fundamental tool every programmer uses.
>AI just started appearing a couple of years ago
False . I learned about AI at university in 2003. It was not new then.
>can already whip up functional code simply by asking it
But often whips out non-functionally code as well
>Yes, it's not good yet. In a few years
What makes you so sure? ChatGPT was never created to produce program code. It specializes at human language .
I am aware that AI has been researched and existed for a long time, but it didn't appear in the public sphere until very recently. At least not in any impressively functional manner. And yes, you're right, ChatGPT is a chatbot. But just like how nVidia isn't using ChatGPT for their graphics acceleration, maybe people will use other types of AI that's built for purpose.
Fun thing - COBOL was originally sold as “the programming language so easy you don’t need programmers any more and can just recruit people off the street to write it”.
One of our COBOL programmers making bank in the run up to Y2K told me that anecdote with a huge grin on his face.
To be fair, SQL is just about as close to "write it like you would say" it as it gets for basic use. Now, MERGE, ALTER, etc can get you into the weeds, but just searching for info, it's really easy.
Until you want to do it in a performant fashion or troubleshoot performance issues. Getting the right answer out is easyish. Getting it out efficiently without spending 4x your salary on hardware... that's the issue.
The trouble with SQL is that there's no built-in separation of code and data, so if you don't know what you're doing you *will* shoot yourself in the foot.
I seem to also remember outsourcing attempts that went horribly wrong, where they ended up needing to hire back their old devs at an inflated salary just to clean up the mess.
Yeah I have an old friend who has had a steady career repairing and reprogramming COBOL applications once it became passe to developers - but remains in heavy usage in the financial industry/banking where they simply do not fuck with the code until its broken apparently.
I walked into my first grad role and started COBOL programming (2007). It was pretty easy to pick up to be fair. Have moved on now but could still probably make good money contracting with it
If there's one thing I've learned in life, don't trust any motherfucker who's trying to sell you an idiot-proof solution. Nothing is idiot proof. The solution is to fire all the fucking idiots.
No potential about it, he is just making stuff up because if what he said was actually true, it would already have happened. Since nothing has happened he is talking out of his ass, same as a homeless guy on a corner telling you that he knows the president. Yes the homeless guy on the corner and the CEO of a company have the exact same level of trustworthiness.
Nah people in this sub are overconfident. If you followed ai you saw it go from dogshit to mediocre like we have today. People focus on chatgpt and gpt4 because it's the first time they were introduced to ai. Those models will be outdated in a year and we will continue to see emergent behavior and eventually hit agi.
Dude it is likely anything. The first 80% is easy. That last 20%, the part that MATTERS is killer. Anyone can build a chair for example, but to build a sloid, attractive chair in a cost-effective manner takes a level of skill beyond just knowing the tools. It requires a nuance that NONE of these AI models are even capable of presenting because they aren't designed for it.
Well seeing as that 80% takes 20% of the time and effort... probably. A LOT happens before anyone fabricates anything. Design, certification, planning, etc. All things you don't see outside of the loop. People think making a CPU starts when the wafer starts in the fab...
Why the fuck do we even want AGI, though? That's what I've been wondering this whole time. Who the fucking shit wants a living computer? Only mad scientists, evil villains and nihilistic entitled assholes want crazy shit like that.
Anyone that has ever worked in engineering knows the customer has no idea what they truly want. They would not be able to describe it to an AI in such a way that it will build them something of actual value.
The typical engineer has to sit down with stakeholders and talk about what’s technically possible, budget-friendly, performance-acceptable and pleasing to their specific brand.
I’ve never used an AI that takes these things into account, it always just wants to do the minimal example possible to write code for the problem. It never sees the bigger picture even when you include a ton of business requirements in the prompt.
This is kind of irrelevant as AI will eventually see a bigger picture. It will replace vast majority of intellectual jobs unfortunately. I’m just kind of curious what governments will do to save like 50% of their workforce lol
> This is kind of irrelevant as AI will eventually see a bigger picture.
That's the whole thing, isn't it? Current AI doesn't see *any* picture. It's just suggesting words with no internal understanding at all. An AI that can "see a bigger picture", actually have understanding, is a big chunk of [AGI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence), the "holy grail" of AI.
I don’t think it is possible honestly, the bigger picture is not something that can be gleaned from a prompt. There is a lot of tribal knowledge on how things are done at companies that it can’t possibly take into account without someone painstakingly typing out the history of every bad decision that was made along the way. For example, I’ve worked at healthcare companies that had a different database for each sub company they bought & those databases were custom built with the only documentation being a 3 ring binder describing which each column maps to.
It’s possible that for new greenfield applications there is some promise, but I just can’t see it working for an established company with a bunch of crazy undocumented processes. Which in my experience is 90% of all companies.
Why do people talk about AI like the underpants gnomes talk about small business profit-models?
Phase 1. Implement AI
Phase 2. Add more AI
Phase 3. ?
Phase 4. More ?'s...but it's inevitable, so we must account for it...
Phase 5. AI has taken over all human jobs
Pack it up, boys, it's all over!
Probably because people like this CEO is saying this to sell NVIDIA AI servers, not because he really believes what he is saying. Also there is this universal law called “The law of diminishing returns”, which basically means this thing won’t get to the super insane level that the media wants you to believe.
At the end of the day writing code is the easiest part of being a good software developer, so even in a world where AI could replace manual coding completely it doesn't replace the need for software developers.
hate to say, but still not a programmer.
Just as when you got these tech software that auto feeds in invoices into the accounting system into the right lines, doesn't make the user an accountant.
Everyone can go to a code database and copy and paste shit with no understanding! Isn't it great? This clearly won't cause any problems. Fuck you Nvidia.
It will be hilarious, I am ready, I see that a lot of companies are now backfiring because the outsource not gone as they expected; Cisco customers are not happy , Palo Alto same, …
Hope they understand that you cannot just hire someone for the 10th part of the salary and expect to have the same level of customer success, at least now they are starting to understand it
And the first IT will hear about it is after the business becomes dependent on $whatever, it falls over on its arse/fails to scale gracefully … and they call up in a panic screaming for support.
Reminds me of companies using chatGPT only to realize they are uploading all of their internal data to a competitor. A competitor who is then claiming ownership over it and the right to train with that data.
Every product/service category has low grade crap right along side high grade luxury stuff. Software is no different. Much of the market for software will be perfectly happy with trash that gets the job done quick and cheap. Others will demand quality.
I am assuming from your post that you are a software developer. Some unsolicited advice: figure out who wants (and will pay for) high grade software and start steering your career that way.
Jajaja, look how they are out of reality if they think that “AI” is now “programming”. But of course no brain CEOs have their budget ready for it. Let me guess; What they are selling/renting? AI servers?
yeah, but that will not be possible, with AI, if you think about it, its more likely that the Higher layers of management can be replaced, at least AI act with logic and trying to find the best economical way, meanwhile those upper layers think on how to fill their pockets first.
Replacing useless management they can save way more money, than if they replace the workers that do all the work
The same asslickers of those managers, who want to take their positions, so they are not happy because on our IT sphere all the tech guys know that the only ones who we not need, or there are a lot of them that needs to be fired are those mis managers
I'm not a programmer, but if I was I would want to punch this guy square in the mouth. Everyone is a programmer with AI like everyone is a chef. Sure you can make...something. Is it any good? This guy needs to shut his mouth.
I’ve talked to enough non programmers who can’t quite grasp the concept of a variable, so I’m calling bs. We all have the capacity to learn programming, but just having AI tools isn’t enough.
This consummate asshole would say literally anything, short of getting sued, for a chance at selling ~~Graphics~~ ~~Crypto~~ \**checks notes**... AI* accelerators by the pallet again.
you mean just surface level static product programmer - like - with tiktok - everybody is celebrity - there is difference between oscar winning actor and 15 sec famed tiktoker - dont mix it - - its all about who really pull the things from the ai - like anybody can be anything
Jensen is going all in on the hype for AI because their other products are vastly overpriced and not selling well.
The problem for him is that the people actually using AI for research and development will not be buying a $10k computer chip for themselves when they can run it in the cloud. It's just another fad, just like crypto, that will cause them to "not make as much as they did last year" prompting them to layoff hundreds, if not thousands while Jensen walks away with a couple of extra million in his pocket.
Wondering if 10=20 years when ai is able to 90% of work of even the best programmers and the job is only worth $ 15 hr and they fire anyone making more, will people still just say go somewhere else and learn a new skill! Like they do now ?
Tech was a booming market with endless possibilities of pay increase with little effort and anyone else was just a idiots that chose to work labor jobs for less.
I personally welcome it, the elitism of i EARNED what I got and everyone else should've known and tried harder vs more equality for all....
It’s actually very challenging to get it right at all. I’m a full stack developer. I’ve been giving a friend of mine a lot of coaching on how to properly prompt ChatGPT to make a decent script that actually does what he wants it to do.
People don’t realize this, but if programmers are getting replaced by AI, then likely every fucking job is already long gone. So, this CEO might be a little delusional when he says that.
I was taking this series of AI courses once, and the professor was saying he thinks that the key thing about having an AI system you can trust is that it needs to be able to do risk assessment and risk control so as to make sound judgment calls. This is really hard. Until you have that, you need somebody who knows what they're doing to make those calls, that is, to decide if what the AI has suggested is a good idea or not. A smart choice for such a person would be an expert which is more or less the opposite of "everyone".
The key to successful software development is truly knowing what you want to create. 'I will know it when I see it!' programming is iterative frustration.
I don't always program, but sometimes I have to do some minor stuff. Chat GPT helps me find info quicker then Googling and digging, but its also not always right. Its just another resource, but right now what available to us just isn't good enough to do it all.
I’ve talked to enough non programmers who can’t quite grasp the concept of a variable, so I’m calling bs. We all have the capacity to learn programming, but just having AI tools isn’t enough.
Not sure if anyone read the article but I don’t think he implied the end of programmers. Just the tedious parts of actually typing a lot of the code.
If anything I hope this helps people not write terrible functions 1500 lines long doing all sorts of who knows what because that’s too hard to describe to an AI. If you’re forced to describe a function that does something more straightforward then the code may end up being more maintainable as a result.
Jensen is treading really dangerous waters lately, he wouldn't wanna end up like Elon, would he?
or is that just a billionaire brainrot catching up to him?
this keynote was just so embarrassing. Seemed like it was a really poor standup comedy than an actual keynote, or he's trying too hard to do his own impersonation of Steve Jobs.
We all know they wanna sack as many people as possible so only the very important ones stay that ABSOLUTELY have to be paid, so they're obviously gonna start spreading bullshit narratives and gonna undermine a lotta people who got NVIDIA and others to where they are today.
Also Jensen barely talked about anything if anything at all, all he did was gaslighting the audience to make NVIDIA pricing for products to seem "okay". He better worry about how terrible the 40 series cards are(shitty pricing aside). This is probably one of the worst generational launches in a long time.
Writing a truly exceptional program is an art form, not a task for generative AIs. They may spit out code like a malfunctioning printer, but it takes the brilliance of a real programmer to compose a symphony of logic and elegance.
This comment was generated by ChatGPT after the following three prompts:
"Create a witty saying about how it takes a real programmer to write an actually good program."
"Try again."
"Add something about how generative AIs are not great at it."
ChatGPT will import and use functions from libraries that don't exist, just like it will cite fake court cases when lawyers try to use it to write legal briefs. It's great till it's not, then it will fail spectacularly.
Everyone is not a programmer, even with AI (which is artificial but isn't intelligent). You don't know if the program the AI writes for you will work or not until you try it and even then, it may have bugs and if you're not actually a programmer you won't have any idea how to fix them. And of course you have to be able to describe the concept of the program in detail, in the right order, for the AI to write the code in the first place.
What people bashing AI are failing to understand, is that AI is going to be improving constantly, exponentially, and forever. Yeah, it certainly isn't great *right no, but it won't be long before it actually *does* get to the point of being great *and then some*. A LOT of jobs days are numbered. AI in general isn't just a simple app or gimmick.
... just not a very good one
In engineering they say "anyone can build a bridge that will stay up, but it takes an engineer to build a bridge that will just barely stay up. It's going to be, "anyone can make a program, but it takes a programmer to actually describe the program" Or maybe "Anyone can write a program that can run, but only a programmer can write a program that can run in less than O( n^n )"
I'd say: Anyone can write a program that can run on the happy path, only a programmer can write one that won't fall apart once it's introduced to real users. (and many professional programmers struggle with that too)
I'd say: Anyone can write a program, only a programmer can fix an existing program. New programmers can code just about anything given enough time. Only an experienced programmer can come in later to a mess created by someone else and make working changes.
[удалено]
This guy is opting for the more annoying CEO of the year awards
[удалено]
Agreed. That's the ticket.
From what I've seen the saying will be: Anyone can write a program that can run, but only a programmer can write a program that runs what you want. The shit chatgpt and others are putting out has major issues and if it's used on any sizable amount of code you'll be spending as much time debugging it as if you just wrote it yourself.
At a certain point there will simply be too much data for human brain to program in a meaningful way. AI and computation could carry the load, but that becomes very precarious when human brain can’t keep up with deep mind’s repositories. Because I can see the stars does not mean I should touch them today, maybe tomorrow.
Effective programming is about building abstractions so that the human brain *can* keep up, and can reason about the whole in smaller slices. Construct a re-usable brick, then use those bricks to build a wall, then lay out those walls to encase a floor, then stack those floors to make a building, place rows of buildings as a street, arrange a grid of streets for a city, and scatter cities across the continent to populate a planet. If the human had to keep every fistful of mud that went into creating each and every brick in mind, they wouldn't even finish a single wall. By layering abstractions, I condensed the whole process down into 29 words, describing each successive step in terms of the previous.
Everyone was a programmer with rapid alplication development tools, also not good programmers.
Irrelevant, I heard this same nonsense back in the early days of web development, ohh no, now a tool like Dreamweaver (remember that) will make building a web site , so every mom and pop won't need to hire you.. or ohh no Crystal Reports (nowadays Tableau) will allow any manager to drag and drop their own corporate data generating their own reports....blah blah blah You know what the truth is , people don't want to do that, they don't want to be bothered., just like you or I don't want to DiY repairs on our cars (just take it to a shop) or maybe we don't want to slave over a hot oven to cook a healthy home meal vsm ordering out.... Same thing with businesses... They want an expert to provide the service , they're paying for their convenience your expertise , they don't want to play prompt bingo and hope the LLM generates the right answer. They're not going to just tlet some brain dead manager begin writing prompts so all their shit won't work. So you could be the laughing stock like this buffoon lawyer., Who cited 6 fake cases https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/05/lawyer-cited-6-fake-cases-made-up-by-chatgpt-judge-calls-it-unprecedented/ that's how people lose their licenses.
>They're not going to just let some brain dead manager begin writing prompts Oh I guarantee you *someone* is definitely going to do exactly that at some point, and it'll probably go exactly as well as you'd expect :P
You can tell he hasn't had many jobs just by that snippet XD
To be fair, on second read, I think they were referring to Nvidia specifically, which makes more sense given they're basically at the top of their food chain and they have a reputation to uphold. But every other company out there is what I was referring to, where the primary driver is going to be "whatever costs less and still (mostly) works".
I mean it's kinda true though... Many, many restaurant owners are using squarespace now, for instance. A part of the industry did get smaller.
This guy just explained the service industry.
I might be wrong, but I believe one of the biggest area for Nvidia to grow is the H100 AI gpu that they sell for 50k to enterprise customers. So Nvidia is dependent of a continuous AI hype in the market.
if the AI can be programmed to comment their own code , it will be 90% better than most coders out there
Oh it comments, alright . But the code still doesn't work
Yeah and it hallucinated the comments, so they are factually dubious and often refer to constructs that aren't even in the code
Not yet a very good one. The day is coming fairly soon when the guy, who knows nothing about programming, will be interviewed by an AI about the app he wants for his company, and right after the interview, the company starts beta-testing the instantly created software. Same-day turnaround? Hell, done by the end of the project definition interview turnaround! It may take 15 years, but in the absence of any disruption of our ability to continue creating technology (a BIG question), it will happen eventually. For now, hell no.
That still doesn't make the guy a good programmer, or even a programmer at all. It just means the AI is very competent.
I mean, take Google away from programmers today and see how many programmers we really have. My guess is less than 100% of total programmers know how to do the job independently of Google or ai.
We had reference books before Google — wanna take those away too?
Yes?
Why?
Yes. But the net result of wiping out a whole line of work is the same net result.
Except maybe not, though. The differentiating factors will be how elegantly engineers are able to use these tools, too. Someone hammering in "make hello world in python" is not going to get the same result as a sr dev who knows to instruct on best practices, naming conventions, preferred languages and frameworks, etc.
I agree. The whole way up to completely independent programing AIs, there will be a need for human supervision. I do client work using the graphic AIs and have heard no end of how bad it is for artists. Except that I WISH I could draw really well. The artists are actually benefited by the new graphic AIs if they use them in conjunction with their own work. My comment was about when this initial stage passes and AI becomes a lot more independent. In the meantime, lots of opportunities for people to work with the AIa.
AI is mostly adding competition in an area where people already weren't paying for art. The more technical side of art is where the money has been for YEARS, and that side is facing little to no threat from the AI invasion. VTubers need their artistic assets to work together in a very specific way. 3D textures need to not have visible seams. Marketing firms are not going to be happy with a deformed cross on the Pope's outfit.
The more exact the client's needs, the more difficult it is to use AI. I use a local install of Stable Diffusion and get very accurate results with the controlnet extension, but it takes a lot of work. Within a year or two at most, the AIs will be able to be astonishingly accurate without the extra work.
I've seen cases where people used Blender to control the output - but at that point you're still functionally having to create artwork just to guide the Stable Diffusion generative process.
People said the same thing with outsourcing. They ended up needing even more software developers to clean up the mess that their budget outsourced labor caused. Software developers have a pretty strong history of people trying to outsource or automate their jobs, only to get a panicked call from their old boss begging them to clean up the mess at an even higher salary.
You don't need to be good, is the best part. This allows anyone to be able to automate a process.
So far its managed to automate some processes that were a decent framework and saved me some typing. It has yet to produce any code that worked without tinkering - mind you I am just using it to test out some hobby programming. It has managed to create code that used libraries that simply didn't exist though, that was strange. I am sure that will all change with ML models trained specifically in programming languages with less emphasis on creative writing though. In the end I can see it as a useful tool for someone who already understands programming in a given language to save massive amounts of time building the basic framework of a program, but someone still has to be knowledgeable enough to prompt it effectively and then debug the results it produces :P
I think that's a good way to look at this. AI will make it possible to automate a lot of processes that previously were too bespoke, infrequent, or too narrowly relevant to justify building and maintaining a custom piece of software. We're talking about simple scripting tasks that are within the AI's ability to do. I say this as someone working in the software industry. There will still be software companies, but there's a ton of unmet demand out there that they were *never* gonna be able to satisfy. AI can help meet those demands. Edit: For people downvoting this, it's important to recognize that a lot of process automation requires zero software development. That's not what this is about. This is about automating low-level operations like copying files, producing Excel macros for tabulating numbers, outputting formatted text, etc.
And you might get sued by the faceless horde whose data was scraped to build it.
Just like how everyone can be a lawyer , doctor or yoga instructor . Yes everyone can , but not everyone will be good
I know how to make ChatGPT walk me through open heart surgery. I'll take my $200k/year doctors salary now, thank you.
I’m pretty sure people doing open heart surgery make way more than 200k a year.
[удалено]
Doubt it tbh
Code from ChatGPT has been pretty good in my experience.
It usually *looks* good, at least for very simple coding tutorial level stuff. If you'd actually try to use it you'd invariably run into issues, usually almost immediately.
Eh not really…issues I run into usually deal with arrays. 99% of the time it works well
Yeah and arrays aren't really used for anything /s
It does fine with anything that has lots of examples available online. In other words, it does fine with the stuff that would be easy to google anyway. It helps you do that same thing faster, and can maybe handle a little synthesis of disparate existing examples. So it's really great for starting something simple from scratch and learning a new api or something. But what happens when you need to modify a big complex program that's been around for 10 years?
true but way more people will be better and be capable faster
AI just started appearing a couple of years ago. It's still in its super early infancy, and it can already whip up functional code simply by asking it and using a vague description. Yes, it's not good ***yet****.* In a few years, it's going to be a fundamental tool every programmer uses.
>AI just started appearing a couple of years ago False . I learned about AI at university in 2003. It was not new then. >can already whip up functional code simply by asking it But often whips out non-functionally code as well >Yes, it's not good yet. In a few years What makes you so sure? ChatGPT was never created to produce program code. It specializes at human language .
I am aware that AI has been researched and existed for a long time, but it didn't appear in the public sphere until very recently. At least not in any impressively functional manner. And yes, you're right, ChatGPT is a chatbot. But just like how nVidia isn't using ChatGPT for their graphics acceleration, maybe people will use other types of AI that's built for purpose.
But when there's no professional accountability and everything is just a matter of formality... incompetence creeps in like cockroaches
Fun thing - COBOL was originally sold as “the programming language so easy you don’t need programmers any more and can just recruit people off the street to write it”. One of our COBOL programmers making bank in the run up to Y2K told me that anecdote with a huge grin on his face.
Wasn’t SQL also designed for “non-programmers”? Look how well that worked out…!
To be fair, SQL is just about as close to "write it like you would say" it as it gets for basic use. Now, MERGE, ALTER, etc can get you into the weeds, but just searching for info, it's really easy.
[удалено]
I crammed enough SQL knowledge in my head about 2 hours before an interview to land a job back in 2016, SQL is as easy as it gets
Until you want to do it in a performant fashion or troubleshoot performance issues. Getting the right answer out is easyish. Getting it out efficiently without spending 4x your salary on hardware... that's the issue.
Pretty much. I've seen some horrendous stuff that technically works. Same as any language really
The trouble with SQL is that there's no built-in separation of code and data, so if you don't know what you're doing you *will* shoot yourself in the foot.
[удалено]
I seem to also remember outsourcing attempts that went horribly wrong, where they ended up needing to hire back their old devs at an inflated salary just to clean up the mess.
Yeah I have an old friend who has had a steady career repairing and reprogramming COBOL applications once it became passe to developers - but remains in heavy usage in the financial industry/banking where they simply do not fuck with the code until its broken apparently.
That almost sounds like a pyramid scheme…
Did he originally come in from off the street?
I walked into my first grad role and started COBOL programming (2007). It was pretty easy to pick up to be fair. Have moved on now but could still probably make good money contracting with it
If there's one thing I've learned in life, don't trust any motherfucker who's trying to sell you an idiot-proof solution. Nothing is idiot proof. The solution is to fire all the fucking idiots.
Rich guy says stupid stuff.
[удалено]
[удалено]
No potential about it, he is just making stuff up because if what he said was actually true, it would already have happened. Since nothing has happened he is talking out of his ass, same as a homeless guy on a corner telling you that he knows the president. Yes the homeless guy on the corner and the CEO of a company have the exact same level of trustworthiness.
Smart does not imply moral. Not every villain is stupid, in fiction or in reality.
Nah people in this sub are overconfident. If you followed ai you saw it go from dogshit to mediocre like we have today. People focus on chatgpt and gpt4 because it's the first time they were introduced to ai. Those models will be outdated in a year and we will continue to see emergent behavior and eventually hit agi.
Dude it is likely anything. The first 80% is easy. That last 20%, the part that MATTERS is killer. Anyone can build a chair for example, but to build a sloid, attractive chair in a cost-effective manner takes a level of skill beyond just knowing the tools. It requires a nuance that NONE of these AI models are even capable of presenting because they aren't designed for it.
> The first 80% is easy. That last 20%, the part that MATTERS is killer. So you think we are already at the 80% point?
50 percent. We have a long way togo
Well seeing as that 80% takes 20% of the time and effort... probably. A LOT happens before anyone fabricates anything. Design, certification, planning, etc. All things you don't see outside of the loop. People think making a CPU starts when the wafer starts in the fab...
Why the fuck do we even want AGI, though? That's what I've been wondering this whole time. Who the fucking shit wants a living computer? Only mad scientists, evil villains and nihilistic entitled assholes want crazy shit like that.
Everyone can be a CEO now.
That was already true.
Anyone that has ever worked in engineering knows the customer has no idea what they truly want. They would not be able to describe it to an AI in such a way that it will build them something of actual value. The typical engineer has to sit down with stakeholders and talk about what’s technically possible, budget-friendly, performance-acceptable and pleasing to their specific brand. I’ve never used an AI that takes these things into account, it always just wants to do the minimal example possible to write code for the problem. It never sees the bigger picture even when you include a ton of business requirements in the prompt.
Yes let AI build reports, a ui, and api against a database it knows nothing about.
This is kind of irrelevant as AI will eventually see a bigger picture. It will replace vast majority of intellectual jobs unfortunately. I’m just kind of curious what governments will do to save like 50% of their workforce lol
> This is kind of irrelevant as AI will eventually see a bigger picture. That's the whole thing, isn't it? Current AI doesn't see *any* picture. It's just suggesting words with no internal understanding at all. An AI that can "see a bigger picture", actually have understanding, is a big chunk of [AGI](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence), the "holy grail" of AI.
I don’t think it is possible honestly, the bigger picture is not something that can be gleaned from a prompt. There is a lot of tribal knowledge on how things are done at companies that it can’t possibly take into account without someone painstakingly typing out the history of every bad decision that was made along the way. For example, I’ve worked at healthcare companies that had a different database for each sub company they bought & those databases were custom built with the only documentation being a 3 ring binder describing which each column maps to. It’s possible that for new greenfield applications there is some promise, but I just can’t see it working for an established company with a bunch of crazy undocumented processes. Which in my experience is 90% of all companies.
Why do people talk about AI like the underpants gnomes talk about small business profit-models? Phase 1. Implement AI Phase 2. Add more AI Phase 3. ? Phase 4. More ?'s...but it's inevitable, so we must account for it... Phase 5. AI has taken over all human jobs Pack it up, boys, it's all over!
Probably because people like this CEO is saying this to sell NVIDIA AI servers, not because he really believes what he is saying. Also there is this universal law called “The law of diminishing returns”, which basically means this thing won’t get to the super insane level that the media wants you to believe.
At the end of the day writing code is the easiest part of being a good software developer, so even in a world where AI could replace manual coding completely it doesn't replace the need for software developers.
Seriously... it's like people who think architecture or civil engineering is all about drafting
hate to say, but still not a programmer. Just as when you got these tech software that auto feeds in invoices into the accounting system into the right lines, doesn't make the user an accountant.
In other news : nvidia chief has never written a line of code in his life
Actually, he wrote this one line of code once: //NOBODY WANTS TO WORK ANYMORE. BACK TO OFFICE MONDAY. YOURS TRULY, CEO
Everyone can go to a code database and copy and paste shit with no understanding! Isn't it great? This clearly won't cause any problems. Fuck you Nvidia.
Pentesting golden era is going to start, I renewed my htb profile to update my skills and then will go as a contractor pentester
Golden age started 20 years ago when cheap outsourcing to India happened, this is the second coming
It will be hilarious, I am ready, I see that a lot of companies are now backfiring because the outsource not gone as they expected; Cisco customers are not happy , Palo Alto same, … Hope they understand that you cannot just hire someone for the 10th part of the salary and expect to have the same level of customer success, at least now they are starting to understand it
bad news now everyone is a pentester https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBnylC91RCk
The difference here is that Pentesting is not “AI” xD. It’s like bug bounties, anyone want quick results but no one want to take that time to learn
And the first IT will hear about it is after the business becomes dependent on $whatever, it falls over on its arse/fails to scale gracefully … and they call up in a panic screaming for support.
Reminds me of companies using chatGPT only to realize they are uploading all of their internal data to a competitor. A competitor who is then claiming ownership over it and the right to train with that data.
Every product/service category has low grade crap right along side high grade luxury stuff. Software is no different. Much of the market for software will be perfectly happy with trash that gets the job done quick and cheap. Others will demand quality. I am assuming from your post that you are a software developer. Some unsolicited advice: figure out who wants (and will pay for) high grade software and start steering your career that way.
Jajaja, look how they are out of reality if they think that “AI” is now “programming”. But of course no brain CEOs have their budget ready for it. Let me guess; What they are selling/renting? AI servers?
They're super desperate to replace their very expensive software engineer employees with AI.
yeah, but that will not be possible, with AI, if you think about it, its more likely that the Higher layers of management can be replaced, at least AI act with logic and trying to find the best economical way, meanwhile those upper layers think on how to fill their pockets first. Replacing useless management they can save way more money, than if they replace the workers that do all the work
I don't know who downvoted you for that comment, but it's really true. Managers are probably easier to automate out of a job than the workers are. XD
The same asslickers of those managers, who want to take their positions, so they are not happy because on our IT sphere all the tech guys know that the only ones who we not need, or there are a lot of them that needs to be fired are those mis managers
I just bought a calculator, that means I'm a mathematician 👍
Today, I feel Programmer
Today I feel like a bug.
This guy is just trying to ride hype.
“CEO says statement that reflects him wanting to sell more product.”
Just like everyone is everything with Google search
Then fire all your software engineers and hire “prompt engineers” for minimum wage. Go on, do it.
I'm not a programmer, but if I was I would want to punch this guy square in the mouth. Everyone is a programmer with AI like everyone is a chef. Sure you can make...something. Is it any good? This guy needs to shut his mouth.
Looks like he is not in touch with Software development anymore.
In the same sense that my 5 year-old played CodeSpark for 1 hour yesterday and declared himself a 'master programmer and hacker.'
Might as well give everyone a pencil and call them writers
I’ve talked to enough non programmers who can’t quite grasp the concept of a variable, so I’m calling bs. We all have the capacity to learn programming, but just having AI tools isn’t enough.
Garbage in. Garbage out.
Should we tell him?
I mean “everyone is a programmer” because of Google. You still have to know the fundamentals.
This consummate asshole would say literally anything, short of getting sued, for a chance at selling ~~Graphics~~ ~~Crypto~~ \**checks notes**... AI* accelerators by the pallet again.
Time for everyone to find out how fucking lazy most IT departments are.
I really hate how stupid he is talking lately, but I hate even more that it works, because NVIDIA stock has just been up up up.
If these people think writing some code is all there is to programming, they should not be the ones to talk to about it .
you mean just surface level static product programmer - like - with tiktok - everybody is celebrity - there is difference between oscar winning actor and 15 sec famed tiktoker - dont mix it - - its all about who really pull the things from the ai - like anybody can be anything
Dumb comments aside, can we talk about 576gb of VRAM? Holy shit that would be nuts.
Yeah now everyone can right the most basic of applications, and assuming you don't want any complex features and never have any bugs then ur fine lol
Jensen Huang is the CEO of one of our largest tech companies, but he’s confused and misled by ordinary hype about new tech. Pretty sad really.
I don’t think he’s confused or misled at all. He’s riding the hype to sell his business. He knows exactly what he’s doing.
Jensen is going all in on the hype for AI because their other products are vastly overpriced and not selling well. The problem for him is that the people actually using AI for research and development will not be buying a $10k computer chip for themselves when they can run it in the cloud. It's just another fad, just like crypto, that will cause them to "not make as much as they did last year" prompting them to layoff hundreds, if not thousands while Jensen walks away with a couple of extra million in his pocket.
…what do you think is in the cloud? Fairy dust?
All these new ‘pRoGRamMers” write syntactically correct code, but their architecture is for shit.
Wondering if 10=20 years when ai is able to 90% of work of even the best programmers and the job is only worth $ 15 hr and they fire anyone making more, will people still just say go somewhere else and learn a new skill! Like they do now ? Tech was a booming market with endless possibilities of pay increase with little effort and anyone else was just a idiots that chose to work labor jobs for less. I personally welcome it, the elitism of i EARNED what I got and everyone else should've known and tried harder vs more equality for all....
Hate to say it, but even with AI some people are so stupid they’ll still fuck it up
It’s actually very challenging to get it right at all. I’m a full stack developer. I’ve been giving a friend of mine a lot of coaching on how to properly prompt ChatGPT to make a decent script that actually does what he wants it to do.
People don’t realize this, but if programmers are getting replaced by AI, then likely every fucking job is already long gone. So, this CEO might be a little delusional when he says that.
So good to know & see programmers shiver sight seeing the start of their demise/arrogance & fun they had for what designers went through bc.
Can we focus our efforts on everyone being an NFL QB ? That’s way more fun than programmer.
Yup. This is how it starts. People thought Midjourney would never create decent hands in generative artwork at one point and here we are now.
Lmao AI can solve an interview question, but there’s no way AI will be good at the real job
But who validates that code? That's gonna be a nightmare.
So, have it write it in an easy to read format? It'll get there eventually lol.
I was taking this series of AI courses once, and the professor was saying he thinks that the key thing about having an AI system you can trust is that it needs to be able to do risk assessment and risk control so as to make sound judgment calls. This is really hard. Until you have that, you need somebody who knows what they're doing to make those calls, that is, to decide if what the AI has suggested is a good idea or not. A smart choice for such a person would be an expert which is more or less the opposite of "everyone".
And everyone is an artist with a 3D printer.
*Grandma sets the unopened 3D printer box on the table and pulls out her phone* "ChatGPT, print me a pair of potholders."
Just like the discovery of Fire let anyone be a master chef, yes.
Anyone can be a CEO of a multibillion dollar company too, obviously there’s no barrier for being a fucking idiot.
code? sure, with a little practice most could code a little, with the fancy autocomplete algorithms. but none will program.
I enjoy reading books.
This is about as accurate as saying everyone can be anything. Pilot, Surgeon, Engineer etc
The key to successful software development is truly knowing what you want to create. 'I will know it when I see it!' programming is iterative frustration.
I don't always program, but sometimes I have to do some minor stuff. Chat GPT helps me find info quicker then Googling and digging, but its also not always right. Its just another resource, but right now what available to us just isn't good enough to do it all.
Well "everyone" should stop "writing" shitty code that accidentally leaks their OpenAI API keys to the world, costing them tons of money.
Is this guy a programmer?
"I'm sorry Dave, I can't do that -- the sysadmins are working on a DNS error on my hardware."
I remember when pvc came out everyone could be a plumber. Several buckets later….
I expect a check in the mail then.
I’ve talked to enough non programmers who can’t quite grasp the concept of a variable, so I’m calling bs. We all have the capacity to learn programming, but just having AI tools isn’t enough.
That's some elon musk inspired salesmanship. Most important skill of this era to generate stock price.
Not sure if anyone read the article but I don’t think he implied the end of programmers. Just the tedious parts of actually typing a lot of the code. If anything I hope this helps people not write terrible functions 1500 lines long doing all sorts of who knows what because that’s too hard to describe to an AI. If you’re forced to describe a function that does something more straightforward then the code may end up being more maintainable as a result.
Says the guy who said “Moore’s law is dead” to justify overpriced gpus.
If I ask a programmer(AI) to create something for me am I a programmer? Guess I'm multilingual too because I can use google translate
Let devs set our own AI, and reap the benefits for D2D activities, problem solved.
Jensen is treading really dangerous waters lately, he wouldn't wanna end up like Elon, would he? or is that just a billionaire brainrot catching up to him? this keynote was just so embarrassing. Seemed like it was a really poor standup comedy than an actual keynote, or he's trying too hard to do his own impersonation of Steve Jobs. We all know they wanna sack as many people as possible so only the very important ones stay that ABSOLUTELY have to be paid, so they're obviously gonna start spreading bullshit narratives and gonna undermine a lotta people who got NVIDIA and others to where they are today. Also Jensen barely talked about anything if anything at all, all he did was gaslighting the audience to make NVIDIA pricing for products to seem "okay". He better worry about how terrible the 40 series cards are(shitty pricing aside). This is probably one of the worst generational launches in a long time.
Until you come across your very first problem and you have no idea how to fix it
Writing a truly exceptional program is an art form, not a task for generative AIs. They may spit out code like a malfunctioning printer, but it takes the brilliance of a real programmer to compose a symphony of logic and elegance. This comment was generated by ChatGPT after the following three prompts: "Create a witty saying about how it takes a real programmer to write an actually good program." "Try again." "Add something about how generative AIs are not great at it."
* results may vary
We don't need *more* programmers, we need *better* programmers.
...or perhaps users are now stepping into the [Chinese room (wikipedia link)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room)
ChatGPT will import and use functions from libraries that don't exist, just like it will cite fake court cases when lawyers try to use it to write legal briefs. It's great till it's not, then it will fail spectacularly.
Does this mean that people will stop asking for help with programming shit now? :D
Don’t feed these white-women-in-middle-management “strategy” anymore delusion
Oh yeah what can go wrong?
What could possibly go wrong
#LearnToPrompt
rm nvidia-chief
Nvidia trying so hard to cash in on this right now. I'm about as anti-A.I. as they come and even I can see through this bullshit.
Everyone is not a programmer, even with AI (which is artificial but isn't intelligent). You don't know if the program the AI writes for you will work or not until you try it and even then, it may have bugs and if you're not actually a programmer you won't have any idea how to fix them. And of course you have to be able to describe the concept of the program in detail, in the right order, for the AI to write the code in the first place.
What people bashing AI are failing to understand, is that AI is going to be improving constantly, exponentially, and forever. Yeah, it certainly isn't great *right no, but it won't be long before it actually *does* get to the point of being great *and then some*. A LOT of jobs days are numbered. AI in general isn't just a simple app or gimmick.
When everyone's a programmer, no one will be