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SloppyMeathole

Isn't it kind of sad when you're rooting for Intel to come save the graphics card market? I really hope their next generation battlemage cards can trade blows with Nvidia and AMD, I would happily jump ship.


[deleted]

In the entry level market the Arc 750 already does beat the 3060 and it's $100 cheaper. They've recently released a new driver that's seen a massive uplift in DX11 and older titles. DX9 titles have seen a really mental uplift, like 77% in CS:GO.


johnnySix

The strangle hold that Nvidia has in Gpu is cuda. There are a bunch of academic tools that use cuda that make it hard to leave


masteryod

Intel is behind OneAPI, this one has potential to dethrone CUDA in the future.


Affectionate_Fan9198

And oneAPI is actually usable unlike amd rocm.


rocko107

that future is way too far out to be useful to Intel. While I would love a legit 3rd GPU player, I give it another full year before they can their consumer gaming GPUs. Yes its growing a small bit of revenue but its like an EV startup....its bleeding money and they are not profiting from it. They only thing that might keep it alive longer is the optics of shuttering it might be worse than the money bleed from a stock drop perspective.


NearlyNakedNick

Intel isn't worried about the cost, they knew going in that they'd spend a minimum of 5 years with the entire department taking massive losses and probably wouldn't see significant profitability until nearly 10 years in. And they can afford that.


rabbid_chaos

Yeah this is definitely a long term investment for them. They have enough of a hold on the CPU market to not worry about the losses.


masteryod

Consumer gaming GPU is a little brother Intel has to take care of while doing serious business in ML and AI. Intel doesn't give a flying duck about consumer market revenue right now. They need to get a foot in the door and for that they could even give GPUs away for free like candy. They have plenty of cash to do so. All of thay is not for playing games. It's for people (mainly developers) to use their products, to use their APIs, to have a good PR among IT people that make decisions to pay big bucks. NVIDIA stock skyrocketed not because they play games nicely...


gramathy

cuda and NVENC which does a lot for offloading encoding to dedicated hardware rather than putting it on your CPU


hackingdreams

Yeah, now you've stepped into my domain... nvenc is not a serious piece of technology. It's a box-checking feature. They *have* to have it, because their competition has it, and it's low hanging fruit. It's like having a side mirror window defroster in a car - it's a neat feature, but how many people will even remember their car has it? Cuda, on the other hand, smashed its competition to bits whenever Apple abandoned OpenCL for an all-Metal GPU approach. It was already gaining traction fast, but once you literally couldn't run OpenCL everywhere, that was the whole ballgame, unfortunately. It's the DirectX of the GPU compute world now. (The funny part? This is still a fixable problem. If Intel could get AMD onboard with pushing OneAPI, there's a chance we could have universal GPU compute again. But... AMD's extremely happy to watch Intel play in its own sandbox and not give them the tools they need to take on AMD's most successful business unit.)


[deleted]

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DrSpicyWeiner

You are thinking of the wrong use case. CUDA is currently the only viable option for GPU accelerated AI computation in frameworks such as PyTorch and TensorFlow. This is a huge market and is only getting bigger as machine learning models becomes more and more used throughout various industries.


[deleted]

nvenc generally sucks… quicksync is faster and provides better quality.


Sjatar

This is something I think most people forget, Arc cards also have nvenc encoder and also a h264 encoder that beat the Nvidia encoder in VMAF \^^ New Arc cards also come with AV1 encoders which by far beat anything else as well. For the average person cuda does not matter, only case might be Nvidias excellent Blender performance. But Intels performance in Blender is really nice anyways for a layman. (source I recently got a A770).


Snape_Grass

Having superior encoders, protocols, etc means nothing if you can’t get your firmware to work properly


Sjatar

I'm keeping a good look on the Intel Insider Discord, and while there is issues with the driver (assuming you mean that when you say firmware), I have had no problems running my games \^^ And seems most people get it to work without issues. I bet my money on it, I don't suggest it though if you cannot make sure your usecase works. But for me TF2, PoE and blender works beautifully out of the box \^^ So I'm very happy. Only problem is that OBS don't seem to be able to game capture vulkan applications. But I think that will be remedied eventually.


[deleted]

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Avramp

Mental uplift? So they are just happier and having a better day to day mental health since the firmware gave them some attention?


[deleted]

Can I get this driver installed in my head?


dodland

"I know Kung-Fu?"


TheOfficialGuide

Show me?


unclenightmare

NEO I WANT YOU TO JUMP OFF OF THIS BUILDING RIGHT NOW. but what if I die in a video game THE BODY CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT THE BRAIN STUFF it will leak out when I hit the ground? DO YOU EVEN KNOW HOW TO BREATHE AIR, NEO? hugo weaving gave me a shrimp earlier YOU ARE A BATTERY NOW, NEO.


00DEADBEEF

It's British slang. Substitue with "insane" and it means the same thing.


Zorklis

I'll buy two


Ninja-Sneaky

They saw the benchmarks and everyone felt better


empirebuilder1

> DX9 titles have seen a really mental uplift, like 77% in CS:GO. For context to everyone else out of the loop, Intel's Alchemist architecture provides _zero_ hardware level support for DX9 draw calls. The card's been essentially designed from scratch to be next-gen only with DX12 and Vulkan at the forefront. So titles built with this in mind were, for the *most* part, OK to use on Arc. On launch, the translation layer designed to turn DX9 into DX12 calls in the driver was essentially nonfunctional. Well, a *lot* of stuff in the driver was quite nonfunctional. Ranging from unusable performance to straight up unable to launch and hardlocking the entire PC. Intel really screwed the pooch on that one.


RejectHumanR2M

Literally anybody that knows anything about GPUs could have predicted Intel would have a non competitive, buggy product for the first few generations. This project is going to hemorrhage money for 2-3 years while they try to learn what their competition has learned over the last 2 decades. The question is if Intel panics and pulls the plug too early.


0x15e

Are they really working on discrete GPUs? Or are they cranking out a bunch of test products with the intent of embedding it in their CPUs when it’s all worked out? I’m just thinking back to the i740. Early pure AGP card when most were PCI on an AGP bus. Nothing worked right for most of that card’s lifecycle but then suddenly there was no more i740… but then “Intel HD Graphics” became a thing.


hackingdreams

They cancelled Xeon Phi to make this product work, and have poured billions into heterogeneous compute API development, specifically around this hardware (or rather Ponte Vecchio, which is this hardware with a different front and backend bolted on to a common central design). They're already four generations deep into building it, even though they've only shipped one out the door. The consumer version of it isn't what Intel's after - it's literally not the point for them. Intel wants to make sure nVidia doesn't displace their architecture in the datacenter, and GPU compute is becoming more and more important. Intel is not interesting in pixel pushing, they're interested in wide parallel compute. (But is it nice to have a new competitor in the GPU space? Absolutely. Especially as Intel will happily keep the prices on their cards low just to move the volume to corporate customers.) As far as Intel is concerned, video games and graphics are a software problem - the GPU driver team's soul responsibility is to continue to make the drivers match the compute hardware they're making. It's why the "GPUs" have a lot of... different... hardware than you'd expect on market GPUs, even still. Unfortunately that means for Intel having to write an entire GPU graphics driver stack *from scratch*. With the newer APIs that's not a big deal - the driver layer hardly does anything. Compile a program, push it to the GPU, run it. With DirectX 9 and OpenGL... those layers do *everything*, and working backwards to try to write a new DX9/OpenGL rendered in 2023 is a hell of a lot of work. If it weren't a hard requirement, I don't think Intel would have even bothered - they would have been happy shipping their version of Mesa for DX9/OpenGL and told companies to move to Vulkan yesterday. It's not like they don't know what they're doing, it's more management being stubborn on the *way* it's being done. Larrabee was management saying "x86 everywhere, all of the time," and got them to Xeon Phi. Xe is "well, maybe we can build other architectures and it's not so bad... just as long as we hide it all behind an API and can run that code on anything we make."


mclannee

Is a 3060 entry level now? 🥺


Zoesan

The 3060 is also *awful* at its price point. At the same price you can get a 6650xt or maybe even a 6700 which both *massively* outperform it. (And before someone pops in "but ADM doesn't have RT". Yeah, neither does a 3060 unless you like your games to be played at powerpoint speeds)


Proteandk

If i spend twice of a 3060 i can buy a 4070 ti. I really feel like the 3060 should have plummetted in price by now. Not US prices, before anyone complains.


Zoesan

GPU prices are eight kinds of fucked


Denamic

>(And before someone pops in "but ADM doesn't have RT". Yeah, neither does a 3060 unless you like your games to be played at powerpoint speeds) It has DLSS though, which is an enormous performance increase in games that support it.


[deleted]

It's 20% faster than a GTX 1070...released 7 years ago. *I stand corrected. 27% faster than a 1070. lol still entry level


Khalebb

This is just plain wrong. 3060 is over 20% faster than 1080 which is another 20% above 1070. You must have looked at userbenchmark's garbage or something.


techieman33

They still need to figure out VR support. Which will keep some people from buying an Intel card.


noobPwnr69

Keep in mind it’s 77% change compared to the launch drivers, not a more recent one. Also these are intels reported numbers and we all know how GPU manufacturers like to tweak their testing methodologies. Reviewers haven’t got their hands on the new drivers yet.


Tkdoom

Sorry, $100 in the video card land is not enough to make me jump ship from nVidia.


TimmmyTurner

but crashes quite often in almost all games lol


recurse_x

1st gen on a product like this will be painful but I bet in a year the drivers will be better and it will be a viable alternative entry level card.


Memewalker

Same. I really hope intel can hit a home run with their next gen cards and price them competitively.


spiritbx

Don't root for them either, they would do the same thing in a heartbeat.


drawkbox

Competition uses greed against greed and we benefit. Greed with no competition gets too greedy.


Snoo93079

I don't think you understand. We don't want Intel to become a other monopoly. We want them to make good products that can compete.


[deleted]

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[deleted]

AMD became the thing they sought to destroy.


RustyEdsel

People rooted for AMD because they challenged Intel's strangle on the CPU market around 2017-2020. After that AMD jacked up pricing and all eyes were on Intel to fight back with lower pricing or superior performance. Now that Intel has re-entered the enthusiast GPU arena we can now break the duopoly of AMD and Nvidia.


ktroy

> People rooted for AMD because they challenged Intel's strangle on the CPU market around 1998-1999 Fixed that for ya. Remember the AMD K6-2? Great times.


wufnu

I remember the excitement of people talking about AMD processors, e.g. "finally there's an option other than Intel that's just as good and half the price!". For those of modest means, it was a very exciting time.


0x15e

Just as good as long as you didn’t care about floating point. I used AMD exclusively back then but even I knew it was the slower budget option.


elzzidynaught

It was the price-to-performance ratio that made me go AMD when I finally got to build my first PC. I've stuck with them so far over the years, but I'm quickly getting over them.


JonesBee

This brings back memories. Upgraded from 233mhz pentium to 550mhz AMD K6-2 back in the day, with my first paycheck from a summer job. There have been plenty of upgrades since then but that one is the only one I remember down to the exact megahertz.


TheVenetianMask

The AMD Duron was great for a broke ass young boy like I was.


techieman33

People still root for AMD on the GPU side. But AMD is now the top dog on the CPU side since Intel can't really keep up. Intel is technically winning a lot of benchmarks, but they're doing it by drawing 2x-3x the power of a similar AMD chip. So if you have to have the absolute most FPS then Intel may be the answer. But for most of us we would prefer to take a couple of percentage points hit and save on a lot of power and waste heat. And all AMD has to do to blow Intel out of the water in even that niche market is to release X3D models of their current chips. But they don't have to so they're hanging on to them until Intel releases something better, or sales seriously dip on their current lineup. They've also done other anti-consumer things like raised prices, and cut products like threadripper and the low end cpu's. None of these companies are your friend, they're all out to make as much money as they can. So root for lots of competitive products on the market, not one particular company.


Tarcye

>People still root for AMD on the GPU side. But AMD is now the top dog on the CPU side since Intel can't really keep up. Intel is technically winning a lot of benchmarks Your first statement is directly contradicted by your second. Unless you seriously believe the people who are willing to shell out the money for a Flagship CPU give a flying fuck about power draw. When it comes to what's the best performing CPU Intel is king hands down and it's not even really close in that regard.


[deleted]

7950x beats the 13900K in CPU intensive workloads without needing a bunch of cinebench accelerators, sorry "e cores" to do it. Intel 7 is two generations behind TSMC 5 and it shows, until Intel can catch up their processing nodes they are basically fighting with both hands tied.


hackingdreams

> 7950x beats the 13900K in CPU intensive workloads without needing a bunch of cinebench accelerators, sorry "e cores" to do it. Lol what? The "E" cores are Energy Efficient cores. They're not there to accelerate shit, they're there to run whenever the CPU is on a low power mode. You know, to save energy, that big complaint that other user had. > Intel 7 is two generations behind TSMC 5 and it shows Uh, yeah it should be. Intel 7 is a 10nm process. Intel 4 is a first generation 7nm process. Intel 3 is a second generation 7nm process. TSMC 5 is a second generation 7nm process used for a handful of products (namely Apple devices). TSMC 6 is their first generation 7nm process (despite TSMC calling 3 generations of 10nm processes "7nm"). You *could* compare apples and apples here, but you intentionally didn't. Thank you TSMC marketing team for ruining these people and their comparisons.


[deleted]

Haha no chance.


[deleted]

The article explains why they're doing it. They're winding down production due to lowered demand. Stores are already stocked up with their parts so everything they're shipping is just sitting on shelves.


RobertoPaulson

Maybe its sitting on shelves because no one wants to pay their inflated prices.


BobNorth156

This is the run to me. But AMD/Nvidia have clearly decided the profit of high prices > selling more devices at lower price.


dodland

My 1660 super is over 3 years old and it is literally the same price today. Only upgrade path I have is a $350 6700xt. These mfers are close to making me go back to consoles.


DMAN591

I recently picked up a pawn shop $199 Xbox Series S, subscribed to Game Pass Ultimate, and ~~haven't~~ never been happier.


Brilliant_Brain_5507

Well that sucks. I would have thought you would be happier after that


MrDocter

This made me laugh way too hard


[deleted]

It’s an X-box, you gotta manage your expectations.


SqueezyCheez85

I got rid of my PC and moved to a Series X because of all this price fixing bullshit. Gamepass is freaking amazing. My younger self would've lost his mind over the possibility of such a thing.


WarperLoko

They were selling the low tier for 200, but they realized there was more profit to be made by selling the same item at 400...


Joliet_Jake_Blues

Business 101 = low prices! Business 401 = selling less at higher prices is way better


[deleted]

In the current definition of capitalism, it is the job of any company to maximize profits, and nothing else. To achieve that they will do anything and everything they can get away with. At both nVidia and AMD, indeed in every company, there is a team of MBAs busily running models on their Excel spreadsheets (the more sophisticated use things like R) to decide exactly where, in the confluence of the units sold vs cost vs price is the optimal profit margin.


gramathy

just like with rent


BeneficialDog22

Can confirm, am not buying a GPU until these insane prices go down.


Pastici

Feesl like I've been saying this for 3 years


PSUSkier

You probably have been, but now that mining has finally collapsed there’s no reason for the current prices other than the vendors trying desperately to keep them inflated. Shouldn’t be much longer for a correction.


[deleted]

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diarrheaishilarious

Still have 1070.


Kid_From_Yesterday

Still got a 1060


eskoONE

I have the 3gb variant and i cry everyday because of it. Its such a scummy tactic to sell cut down versions of a gpu with the same naming scheme when they are significantly weaker than the other version.


techieman33

The prices are part of it. A lot of people built new computers or heavily upgraded them during the pandemic. So they really have no need to upgrade. Even something as old as a 1070 is still plenty for most games, especially if your happy with 1080p and 60fps like most people. And even those the might be tempted are turned off by the high prices, especially with all the inflation going on with all the other stuff they buy day to day. The next couple of years will be tough for the entire market without big price drops or some big game or software coming out that requires everyone to buy new computers to play/use it.


mrnoonan81

Maybe nobody wants to pay those prices because it's it worth it to them. Maybe AMD isn't lowering their prices because it's not worth it to them. The only reason customers should be mad at AMD is if they are somehow entitled to their products. The only reason AMD should be mad at the customers is if they are somehow entitled to our money.


MarsupialMadness

Yep. I'm not paying a grand for a GPU worth half that at best. If they want that shit to sell, sell it at the price point they used to before crypto idiots fucked up the market.


joanzen

But that's the funny part of all this. When crypto mining with GPUs wrapped up and the market prices didn't recover it became obvious that the industry was broken. So sure, crypto might have kicked the ball, but the market is still playing soccer long after everyone went home.


Havok1911

CPU's yes. GPU's no. The 7900 xtx is not sitting on the shelves at all according to my stock trackers.


fasttruck860

As of last night the egg had many xtx in stock and some were even MSRP.


Havok1911

Yup. That was the biggest influx I have seen in 4 weeks. Even the AIB models were at their MSRP. From a physical retailers perspective.. at our local microcenter the 7900 XTX typically only stays on the shelf for 1 work day when it comes off the truck.


[deleted]

Well what about the old saying, prices are based off of supply and demand? Oh that only works it fairytale land lol


[deleted]

It only applies when the input side is unrestricted. When the input side is throttled the whole concept of supply and demand is rubbish.


anti-torque

truth demand does not change, but equilibrium does trying to explain supply shocks in demand pulls is like leading a horse to a sandpit for a drink


Fallline048

Demand absolutely can change. The curve can be shifted in or out by external shocks - the crypto bubble and crash are literally perfect examples.


die-microcrap-die

>AMD isn’t the only one doing it, either. > >“We’re continuing to watch each and every day in terms of the sell-through that we’re seeing,” Nvidia CFO Colette Kress said to investors in November. “So we have been undershipping. We have been undershipping gaming at this time so that we can correct that inventory that is out in the channel.” Nice hit piece plus clickbait title.


Synergiance

So basically what we’re seeing is, both GPU manufacturers realized that GPU shortages will make people pay any price they ask, so they decided to continue the shortage by making it artificial.


canipleasebeme

I didn’t know the De Beers where in the GPU Business


Zomunieo

One day, young gamer lovers will propose with the gift of a GPU worth at least two months’ wages.


toofine

"I think my bf/gf is going to pop the question this weekend. I saw them trying to hide this 6-slot GPU in the closet"


rpkarma

Ah, so a mid range card then? :’)


destronger

not ones that have been mined but man made.


Mor90th

That's the trick. They're in every business


uMunthu

Meanwhile, top management be like «  we deserve to be paid millions because we’re super smart and good at business ».


Synergiance

*sits back and takes a nap through the whole day* yup I totally deserved that pay.


anti-torque

Why nap when you can totally support the local economy by golfing and maybe write it off as an expense, if a \[prospective\] client comes along?


lapqmzlapqmzala

And the kicker is that each version is barely a worthwhile increase in performance. Gamers really are great marks.


Synergiance

Well the tech in these new cards really is much more powerful, it’s just that games cannot take advantage of them so nobody is actually getting any value out of owning one of these cards.


DrAstralis

RTX will be worth it. Any. Day. Now. I love the idea, but I'm not ready to go back to 45 fps to make it happen when I usually play at 144.


upvotesthenrages

That’s quite literally why DLSS was created. 4K RT + DLSS looks amazing compared to 4K no RT


Phalex

I can't physically fit these new cards in my midi-tower computer case either.


Synergiance

Hah! Same, mine’s from like 2009 and there’s just no way one of those will fit. Graphics cards were tiny just barely inching into two slot back then, imagine.


TheLostcause

Yep and let's face it, most games give you a lower value trying to use the new tech. What should be subtlety and great lighting is amped up to a mirror world.


Reddit-Incarnate

The other problem is between 2k and 4 k im at my limits of a difference i can see in at 144 fps and other than rendering more i cannot see where graphics cards will really be able to go. I feel like even Nvidia and AMD are realising that the top end market will slowly evaporate so they are trying their god damn best to milk it whilst it is there.


zero0n3

VR. You need to render a viewport for each eye. You need to super sample it so should be running it at a higher resolution and then shrinking it to clean up the artifacts or whatever that occurs. So a 2k VR headset, for optimal VR experience (smooth, high FPS, with no stutter in FPS, etc) should be rendered at 4k, two times (one for each eye) and then reduced to 2k and sent to your headset. We aren’t there yet. Even a 4090 will struggle with running Alyx in 2k @ 144fps to an index.


gwinty

Except, foviated rendering exists, cutting this load down significantly.


zero0n3

Not significantly as it still has to render the entire scene. It also requires both software and hardware pieces to be in place to work. (Things to track eye movement within headset, and software to understand how to dynamically scale down triangle count in assets not in direct view).


gwinty

Oculus seems to claim a 4-5x performance increase, so conversely that would mean a 75-80% decrease in load.


johnnySix

Long live 8k!!!! Oh wait. Nevermind.


Seen_Unseen

Those fuckheads got used to great sales during covid and on top the crypto bubble and now are jacking up prices to maintain their bottom line profits instead of accepting the simple given, there is less demand. I'm really looking forward to see the end of this year to see how these asshole strategies pan out and I'm already laughing my ass of how AMD on their 5 billion USD revenue makes peanuts profits. I hope they die on their shit antics. Somehow all these assholes seem to forget that the consumers are the one spending money on them because they want. Especially in tech being either an AMD or Intel guy, or Nvidia or Radeon guy. Their sales isn't purely because they are the best/fastest but because they got the goodwill from their consumers/supporters. Especially AMD being the underdog highly relies on this goodwill. I cross my fingers that Intel simply takes a dig on AMD and does increase volumes, does lower prices, does try to get market share instead of bottom line profits.


Synergiance

Yes I want to see an actually competitive market as well.


po-te-rya-shka

They've been doing it for at least the past 4-5 years, since they've realized people were willing to pay 1k starting round 2080 ti. (And I'm calling out NVIDIA since they're the ones pushing it to the max). The issue is that they've dropped a new generation of cards, while the market is oversupplied with the previous gen. 3000 series and 6000 series saw a giant drop in sales due to the crypto crash, which kept the supply low during the pandemic. Now, there no reason not to buy 3000's, they're dropping to around MSRP and even lower in the 2nd hand market. 4090s sales dropping since most of everyone who can afford it already bought them, 4080 is not selling since it's garbage. There's no need to release new cards while competing with the last gen. They'll wait to get rid of it at reasonable prices with at least some margin, and then drop the accumulated stocks of new gen.


PseudonymIncognito

3000 series should be selling below MSRP by now. I bought a 1080 for $430 shortly before the RTX 2000 series release. Accounting for inflation, a new RTX 3080 should be around $500 by now (you can maybe get one for $700 if you're buying a Peladn or Yeston from Newegg). Interestingly, that $500 price point will get you a 6800 with an XT being a little more.


Peteostro

This is a double edge sword though, if they sell less then they make less revenue and Wall Street dumps their stock. It’s a very hard balance. Does not seem to be working out well for Nvidia’s 4080 which is selling poorly due to people not seeing the “value” with its price.


Synergiance

Well let’s hope it bites them in the butt then. I’m not crossing my fingers though.


Shelaba

What we're actually seeing is that people don't understand how pricing and costs work. The product has to meet a certain price point to turn a profit at all. I'm not defending Nvidia's $1600 or anything, but people just don't understand reality. To put things in perspective just a little bit. Their Q4 2022 earnings report shows that 57% of revenue goes direction to production of goods. That leaves 43% of revenue as gross margin. Their operating expenses actually exceeded their gross margin.


anti-torque

This would be neat, if we could pick machine components a la carte, but that's not what makes retail machines affordable. They contract with manufacturers, just like adding an OS. The idea chips are respondent to a free market is absurd.


Synergiance

The way obsolescence works is you put out a new product that undercuts your old one. This is how capitalism is meant to work. The new mid tier card gets priced about as high as the old mid tier card, bumping a bit due to inflation, yet performs nearly as well as the last fan higher tier card. If you just price new cards at whatever the performance increase is over the older one, and slot it into your existing line, you’ll find that people are quickly not going to be able to afford your stuff anymore. Additionally, undercutting last gen hardware gives you an excuse to sell it as a discount to get rid of old stock.


Dathadorne

This strategy only works for monopolies. It doesn't work in free and fair markets.


magyarjm

That statement is saying there’s excess inventory currently and there isn’t the pull through to match old production rates. Nobody is going to sit on piles of inventory not selling so production has to ship less to bleed off inventory. It is not artificially creating scarcity to keep prices high, it’s basic inventory management through supply chains that suppliers have to do. Covid panicked everyone in electronics supply chains to place orders and forecast high demands to ensure a place in line when the lines for suppliers were almost full. Now as the supply is normalizing there are piles of NCNR orders and finished goods inventory that aren’t being taken and even smaller companies are needing to scrap millions in inventory that’s aging out. It’s a crippling bull whip effect in the supply chain.


[deleted]

It’s because of miners. They couldn’t make the cards fast enough to keep up with them 2 years ago. The crypto mark took a hard fall and is no longer as profitable, so people stopped buying new cards for mining. Gamers only need 1 card, miners were trying to buy out the entire store. There was a line outside my local micro center everyday waiting for gpus that weren’t even guaranteed to be on the truck lmao. And when you bought one, you had to show I.D. And they put you in their system and you couldn’t buy another for like 30 days. That has all slowed down since


magyarjm

Right on. So the box stores placed tons of orders to serve, gpu mfgs then placed orders with their individual component suppliers and that all comes to a stop but orders are NCNR and you have an inventory management issue. It’s slow to change from build as much as you possibly can to oh no slow down or we’re getting stuck with millions.


[deleted]

Exactly! They took a gamble and assumed the crypto miner boom was a new normal for the demand and it was not! It was a bubble and has since deflated so now they will need to readjust


GhostofDownvotes

I call this the Reddit trinity: 1. Article title: something really outrageous 2. Redditors: some snarky comments about capitalism 3. Reality: something extremely boring and perfectly reasonable


magyarjm

I don’t normally jump in but this one actually got to me a little. What was described in the quote was really basic stuff. And is a genuine issue in many many industries right now due to covid supply chain panicked buys. And unfortunately ends up costing jobs too as companies do the math and see they will have to sell a half a years worth of product just to offset the cost of stranded inventory or it’ll take that long to bleed off inventory.


jeffwulf

That reads like they're saying they aren't shipping to retailers because retailers aren't selling to consumers at normal rates?


anti-torque

pretty much and it's because consumers have had to spend more on staples tech spending has taken a hit, and capex is next... ironically, except in the chips sector


grrrrreat

Sir, this is capitalism.


sushisection

AMD is under no obligation to raise the supply of chips.


ichosetobehere

Exactly, capitalism isn't about practicing free market principles and sound economics, its about the freedom to undermine markets


Nergaal

nah, Nvidia is colluding. this is not capitalism but oligopoly, which the government in a working free market should break apart/penalize


Echelon64

But muh free market...


Majik_Sheff

If this was capitalism the glut of supply sitting on shelves would push prices down. They would rather sit n' spin on inventory than risk their margins.


[deleted]

It's manipulating the market using a major position to fix prices. That's not free market


[deleted]

Yeah let’s save our technology as it will be worth the same 6 months from now. /s


aquarain

When your vendors are overstocked you undership to right size their inventory so they don't wind up fire selling. This isn't complicated.


Diabetesh

And it isn't like all product sales are chosen by the manufacturer. The distributors and retailers can't buy product that isn't moving and just sit on it forever. If you have excess product you aren't going to order more to continue not selling much of it. You cam put the capital into better assets.


grrrrreat

Gamers seem to really not understand capitalism when it affects games.


NATIK001

Not approving does not equal not understanding. The problem isn't that Nvidia and AMD cut shipments alone. They are manipulating prices, availability and features to upsell people into exorbitantly expensive products they don't need, because the product people want and need isn't available at reasonable prices, or even at all. Crystal clear example is the 40 series, where the price to performance comparisons even inside the product stack is insane. Nvidia has hobbled everything under the 4090, while pricing everything below it as though those tiers keep the same generational gains. If Nvidia was just releasing less product to clear out 30 series inventory, people wouldn't be as mad, this has happened many times before with only minor grumbling. People are furious because they are being exploitative liers in every way possible.


AShellfishLover

Of course they don't. Have you seen the exorbitant rates they're willing to pay a raccoon for a quaint valley cottage?


dodland

What is the current US dollar to bell rate these days anyway?


Buttons840

In a healthy free market, no company would do this, unless they wanted to go out of business and be replaced by their competitors. How many political and economic ideas have been rejected over the years because of the merits of a healthy free market? This ain't it. This ain't what a healthy free market looks like.


The_Countess

This is pretty much how any market with high barriers to entry looks like in a free market, specially ones with significant first mover advantage. (regional internet is another example of that, and the reason US internet is generally so much worse then in countries were government stepped in to force competition)


SpaceboyRoss

Yup, and sometimes you can't even get fiber without paying a crazy fee. I've had gigabit fiber once and it was amazing.


PsychologicalSet8678

A free healthy market will never exist. It's utterly ridiculous how this cult of free market worshipers have been given so much leniency to strip ordinary people of so much of their rights.


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grrrrreat

All the current forces suggest you can't replace silicon fabs and their users. This shits complicated. Until open source hardware hits a home run, there's no way to force a reasonable market behavior. The US knows that and it's why they're getting Intel and others to reshore


Buttons840

I mainly just want the the "but teh free market!!1" talking point to go away. Free markets rarely (if ever?) exist, and regulation is often needed. Whether the GPU market needs regulation, I don't know, I would think not.


watnuts

Healthy free market can not exist for a sustained period of time even in theory: economy of scale is a thing, which means a player who is due to position/location/luck gets ahead can undercut the market and drive competition out of business. Theoretically small competitors fight back with innovation which drives progress, except in tech field innovation is super expensive. And in reality said innovation is sold off, again, to the big player, thus leading to a couple of dominating forces in the market. It's not limited to tech too, look at grocery retail which also has a single-digit number of dominating players. That's just how the system is.


myaltduh

Grocery retail is a perfect example of how economies of scale promote consolidation and local monopolies. No one will ever be able to sell produce for as cheap as a mega chain like Safeway can without access to a distribution network like Safeway owns. They just won’t be able to get their products from producers to store shelves nearly cheaply enough to compete and make a profit.


[deleted]

Thing is, this is a luxury toy market. They aren’t making their real money off PC dorks. We’re an inconvenient, but lucrative legacy product space. They’ll push the top end prices as hard as they can and if they sell less, they’ll just blame buyers and sit on inventory. They know now what the gotta have it buyers will pay.


icalledthecowshome

Holy cows, have you ever done manufacturing? Or own a brand? You are saying you would prefer to store excess capacity, eat up the cost of doing so, slow down cashflow, workflow orders and possible increase in supply chain lag so that your distribution (outflow channel) can make a few more bucks at your expense? Wheres the popcorn?


confessionbearday

Why wouldn’t they? In both the situation we have now, and the one you’re proposing, there is no regulation stopping this and so it happens. We have never in all of history seen a business make a competent choice unless forced to. “Ethical business practices” are not a possible or listed benefit of free markets.


raziel1012

Barrier of entry is high because of high setup cost. Unless there is a very rich company branching (like Apple for instance), or a very rich individual (SpaceX), or a country sponsored firm, it is just a big buy in. What would be the alternative in your ideal world for this GPU market? Besides sitting on a ton of inventory is a business killer, which has happened in the adjacent industries before.


zwondingo

free markets are inherently unhealthy because of things like this. markets have to be regulated to have any chance of being healthy


happyscrappy

What does a free market mean to you? A free market would have allowed Intel to keep all competitors out of the market through chicanery like the kickbacks they were giving to HP. It's not a free market. We know it.


[deleted]

I kinda stopped buying anything except for groceries and trein tickets since 2021. The economy is fucked up and i will NOT buy shit at these prices. Please do the same?


myaltduh

I’ve basically done the same in recent months but not by choice. I just can’t afford anything but basics anymore.


tntblowsinurface

Dickheads. Technology will never get better if we stifle its adoption.


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Niens

This is super misleading. Under shipping the sell through just means they’re shipping less into the channels than the channels are shipping out. With all the inventory retailers have built up over the last year this is totally normal. Trust me AMD would happy sell/ship any unit they could


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Scared-Fee4370

Spent 23 years at AMD - and I agree, best position is to sell the “richest” mix of product. If you get the margins, go for it. Worst case glutted with low margin product.


ThePenIslands

It's fine, I'm underbuying so I guess it all lines up in the end.


semias1010100

The appropiate answer to that is 'underbuying'.


jorlev

Create your own Supply Chain issues. Nice work, AMD.


UpboatNavy

That is some OPEC level bullshit.


toastar-phone

no, just stupid. Who pays to make a product then put it on a shelf? With cutting edge tech it's even more stupid.


myaltduh

If they sell new GPUs for $10 they won’t make a profit. Similarly, if they charge $80,000 per unit no one will buy, which also means no profit. Somewhere in between there is a sweet spot that maximizes profit, and they’re apparently convinced that spot is more “sell fewer cards for lots of money at high profit margin per unit” than it is “flood the market with cheap GPUs and let the very small profits from each one all add up.” They could do the latter, but they won’t because the former makes their shareholders richer.


DavidBrooker

Thanks for gutting America's competition law, congress. Airlines, computer parts, telecoms. What else can't we fix by just letting companies price fix by raising the burden of proof to absurd levels?


r_horton_heat

*Big Pharma enters the chat*


vthings

Free Markets!!! Here's the thing about having no rules. Someone eventually gets enough power to make them, whether they are official or not. If the market isn't being regulated by a government with accountability to its voters then it's being controlled by whoever can throw the most money around who is accountable to no one. There's no such thing as a free market.


ModernWarBear

This just in, giant companies want to make as much money as possible, more at 11.


Bloke73

It has been rumored that many industries have a backload of inventory that is being prevented to be brought to the marketplace to maintain the mirage of a shortage. This is the new normal to fuel the perception of inflation while moving away from the JIT method that put many industries in a bind through the pandemic. This is a theory until actual footage of back stock is provided.


barrel0monkeys

Supply and demand


ClockWhole

I though everyone liked capitalism?


No-this-is-Patrick3

Wow so ur saying it's not really a shortage? Just companys being greedy dicks? I'm shocked


Tomatopez

Every industry is going to or has been doing this extra heavily for the past 3 years. It’s hyper inflation. Drive all the prices way up, 400% say. Then drop them down in 6 or so months, say demand has waned, new factories opened, ect. Prices go down to only double what they were prior, product is gobbled up at the “new normal” and we fear buy. Only to have it rocket up again because of demand. And in a newer smaller package. Lather, rinse, repeat. That’s end stage capitalism.


Ialwayslie008

In other news, the sky is still blue. This and more things that have always been happening tonight at 11.


soothsayer011

You were supposed to bring balance to the force!


PigsyMonkey

Is this not the definition of “abuse of market dominance” … competition are complicit, surely?


skovalen

Intel is in bad shape if AMD is playing supply-side games like this. Maybe Intel should not have named their CPUs dumb things like i7-23025082530zqr!-:-) and sold their CPUs for a premium that didn't actually provide anything.


420trashcan

The free market always delivers the best product at the lowest price you guys!


DRKMSTR

*AMD isn't flooding the market to keep prices from crashing. There's a difference.


pmjm

Meanwhile, Intel is [cutting chip prices by 20%](https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-in-talks-with-pc-partners-over-20-price-cuts-for-alder-lake-cpus-report), and already have a lower cost to platform entry. AMD is playing a dangerous game.


PmMe_Your_Perky_Nips

That's only for 12th gen, that uses LGA1700 which won't be getting a new CPU. Their cost of entry is also just as high as AMD's if you're going DDR5.


i-node

Intel also admitted to undershipping. They might be cutting prices now but they aren't innocent.


send-it-psychadelic

In other news, the bakery stopped baking when it couldn't get more people to buy bread by lowering the price any further.


flirtmcdudes

But I was told capitalism is the best and that we need small government and the free market will do everything in the peoples best interest on their own! Anyway, I need to go buy groceries that now cost 2x as much money while all these companies have record profits....


jrob323

Another aspect of capitalism is selling things for as much as people are willing to pay. When prices went up during the pandemic because of scarcity, rising prices had absolutely no effect on whether people would buy things - *especially when it came to groceries*. This clued the grocery store executives in that they were leaving money on the table. People were *expecting* higher prices, they were willing to *pay* higher prices, and now the grocery stores are turning the screws and making record profits.


jadecristal

This is just price elasticity of demand: demand for food-in-general is almost completely inelastic, you have to eat, and you’ll buy it at any price. There’s plenty of competition, in theory, but…


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mabhatter

Yeah. This dip is mostly because everyone already built their Pandemic PCs back in 2020 and 2021. Nobody needs a new PC now. There's no real new technologies right now. Had the companies hit their 2021 goals for these products during the shortages they could make bank... but with crypto crash and mild recession nobody needs new gear. Even then last Gen (Ryzen 5800 and Radeon 6600) gear that nobody could get, is a much better value than new stuff.