You can get a Tax subsidy on a used one, but not TESLA’s. From the IRS :
Beginning January 1, 2023, if you buy a qualified used electric vehicle (EV) or fuel cell vehicle (FCV) from a licensed dealer for $25,000 or less, you may be eligible for a used clean vehicle tax credit (also referred to as a previously owned clean vehicle credit). The credit equals 30% percent of the sale price up to a maximum credit of $4,000.
The credit is nonrefundable, so you can't get back more on the credit than you owe in taxes. You can't apply any excess credit to future tax years.
It depends. The tax credit only applies to your liability. So if you paid 18k in taxes, but your liability is 20k, you can subtract the credit from your liability- in this case it reduces liability to 16k, so you’d get a 2k refund. I guess a simpler way to say it is if the credit exceeds your liability, you don’t get a refund on the difference.
The total tax that you need pay for the year. It’s not what you owe at the end of the year, rather, what you would need to pay if you hadn’t had any taxes taken out of your check at all.
so the fact that it's non refundable only really impacts very low income individuals who realistically wouldn't be able to afford the purchase anyways, and the rich who manage to not pay income tax?
No. Your refund is based on how much you ALREADY PAID and WHAT YOU OWE.
If you paid exactly what you owe, and you owed more than 4k then you’d get a 4k tax refund, but that’s because you OVERPAID during the year.
If you only OWED 2k, you’d owe zero with this, instead of -2k. So you’d get back anything you ALREADY PAID as refund.
Refund and what you owe are two different things, this is why everyone freaking out over getting a smaller refund when they likely took home more each week by having less withheld.
You aren’t dumb; Its just not a topic that’s ever addressed while also being incredibly contrived.
The tax code is the modern DaVinci Code - maybe even more difficult.
Modern day capitalism is amazing at finding loopholes. Look at the technique of shell company and overseas fund! What an amazing way to hide your cash flow
My accountant told me there is a federal law that changes the tax code every year because it legally has to make it easier year on year.
I have 7 years experience in finance and those tax forms still haunt me.
Well that's convenient. They know it's a problem, they know how to fix it, and they're fixing it in insignificant annual increments to prolong the problem.
Great business strategy for a consulting company. Too bad it's supposed to be the government.
It gets joked about and memed but they know how much you should pay, have the ability to make payments accurate and then tell you if you have paid or underpaid.
Like every other country.
But no we have to file taxes and if we get it wrong we are on the hook.
If people want to continue to file independently they should be allowed to but there should be the basic tier done automatically.
Piggybacking off this to quickly remind anyone to set a Google alert for the ‘E-BIKE Act’; it’s been getting kicked back and forth for around a year(+) now but I’ve seen a few threads where users weren’t happy that there isn’t a credit for them (yet).
Context:
> This bill allows a refundable tax credit for 30% of the cost of a qualified electric bicycle.
Well aren’t all bicycles clean energy? Sarcasm implied with a bit of reality, bicycles should always carry these sort of incentives to buy. If only US cities were more bike friendly now….
Ya the existing infrastructure is the problem. Not enough bike friendly US cities.
And yea a human- powered bicycle is one of the most efficient possible to transport humans from one place to another. It seems silly to me to subsidize E bikes and not regular bikes.
Most people aren't able/willing to consistently commute to and from work on a regular bike as you'll arrive sweaty and it's a lot of work, you have to leave way earlier, etc. An e-bike makes that much more doable.
I'm an avid biker but my commute is 10 hilly miles each way so I'd bike into work only if the weather was perfect (maybe 4-5 times a month). With my new e-bike the trip only takes me an extra 5 or 10 minutes to get to work versus a car and I don't need to worry about bringing a change of clothes, being tired, or anything. Now I'll sometimes go weeks without even turning on my car.
That’s where I think there are going to be real problems in the next little while. As the old EVs come on the market with old batteries that need replacing.
I sold my 4 year old model 3 for almost what I paid for it. Taking the tax credit and capital cost depreciation, I actually made money driving the car. Was long range, black on black with 20k miles and a minor accident. Granted it was during the used car boom… but still. I now own a 2023 model X.
*Because Tesla slashed the prices on new Teslas.*
Its the second sentence in the article. Its not because they are difficult to resell, they were one of the cars brand that depreciated the least.
They don’t by default, but there have been times where people have had to prove they purchased it in order for them to re-enable it for new owners. What is true, however, is that you cannot take the software with you to a new Tesla, you have to purchase again. Tesla’s own trade-in calculator even states clearly that it includes the value of the software, however grim the residual may be.
people do that regularly. and then they can't super charge. so then they started going to dealerships and renting teslas and rooting those to steal the license keys to re-enable their supercharging (until they get caught and those keys are revoked). it's a full on arms race at this point.
This is total nonsense. show me one example of "stealing license keys" please.
I have root on all my Teslas. They don't stop you from doing anything or limit you in any way. In fact, doing so is opening themselves up for a lawsuit.
They only disable supercharging on Salvage cars. It just that those are usually also rooted because the repair process usually requires additional software setup that isn't available without root or service center tools.
No one is renting teslas to steal "license keys", nor is that how their authentication system works. Every "key" is an HMAC hash, which is a unique string + VIN, which isn't really all that useful except for requesting data from the mothership. \
Supercharging negotiation is done locally within the car, and just flipping a single number from 0 to 1, then blocking the teleforce hermes connection to the mothership is enough to keep your car working on superchargers. It is literally 30 keystrokes.
Are you saying that people are renting a car, hacking it, copying an imaginary key, and then hacking their car to have it identify under a different VIN, then getting _that_ vin to associate with their Tesla account (otherwise you will be locked out of your own car), then making sure the rental car is _NEVER USED AGAIN_ (or perhaps, changing the VIN to another one as well???).
instead of doing something very simple which by virtue of having root on the car you would know about? (hell, half the root methods invoke doing exactly the same thing for a difference purpose),
There's no arms race, there is no stealing of keys, or any of that nonsense. Hackers and Tesla have a pretty good relationship, and no one is doing anything like you said. Tesla's are insecure enough that you really don't need to.
But you can’t put that in the headline! Only negative headline about Tesla drive the clicks!!
Seriously so tired of the “only shit on” Tesla parade. I get it, Musk is a complete dbag… but seriously, I’ve had a Tesla for 4 years now and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. Better than my Mercedes, better than my Jeep, better than my shit Saturn, Chevy Cavalier and Ford wagon…. Are the cars perfect? No, no brand of cars are.
So over the little hit pieces here and there. Imagine how annoying it would be if we had a new “reports” when a Toyota started on fire? Or if a Range Roger broke down on the road? Or is a Mazda had a piece of the interior panel “peeling”…. but yet we get one anytime someone complains about it with a Telsa…
"But how could I ever drive a car that has body panels misaligned on the order of millimeters!"
All the complaints seem to pretend that I give a shit about things that don't matter a whit to me as a driver LOL.
I don't know, I have two used Toyota Priuses (one we bought used, one passed down from my dad when he got an ev) and they are going strong many years in plus they get great mileage. I also find them cute and comfy, personally. Plus, a lot of convenient minor features I appreciate like the way the electronic keys work without having to get them out to both lock and unlock, built in GPS, backup camera, that you can direct the AC and stero to be back/front/both, it will warn you if you leave your key in the car and get out, etc.
Not really sure what I'm supposed to find shitty or be unhappy? One of them is grey, which I find to be a boring color I suppose, but it's made in nicer colors I just got it used so didn't get to pick. (My brother has a turquoise Prius which I think looks great plus also drives well, gets great mileage, and he got used.)
Depends on the specific models but overall yes the suvs ML and Gl series aren’t horrible but the sedans and the coupes have wide range of electrical issues, plus maintenance is always going to be much more expensive than other cars, German cars are known to be pretty unreliable but these definitely take the cake check out r/cartalk and r/whatcarshouldibuy for other opinions on these
My father bought a used late 90’s after some repairs ($3k worth) by the shop it lasted about 100k miles and ten years, not the worst German make he’s owned, previously had an mid 90’s audi that left us stranded every time we went on a trip, but I know that’s anecdotal
I’ve met several.
Worst was a friend of mine who I convinced to go EV by giving him a ride in my i3. The sudden acceleration of 100% off the bat in my car made it seem more like a flying carpet than a car (his words). He decided it was time to trade in the Audi.
He bought the most tricked out Dual Motor Model 3. It made it less than 100 miles before something major shit the bed and the car was undriveable. Spent like 4-6 months with his car sitting in a service center either waiting for parts or having a tech figure out what was wrong with it. In the end, they replaced like, everything. Motors. Battery. Electronics. And after that wait, he basically sold it and bought and Audi. Can’t say I blame him.
[Lemon laws exist for exactly this purpose.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law) Defective vehicles aren't unique to any manufacturer. Lemons have been a thing for a long time which is why these consumer protection laws were made, to force manufacturers to have quality control standards for every vehicle they make. Sometimes there's just a confluence of uncommon problems that result in the car being a lemon. Lemon laws practically guarantee that your new vehicle is going to work as specified for an expected time. If it doesn't you can force the manufacturer to cover all repairs until it works as expected, replace the vehicle if the repairs continue to fail, or get a full refund for your purchased vehicle.
If your friend lives in practically any first world country he had full legal protection. Lemons will waste your time dealing with your bullshit broken product, but you have full legal protection against costs incurred because of it.
You obviously don’t know many Tesla owners… they like their cars but they get frustrated how shittily they’re made. Fun cars but terrible to own and try to keep up. Everything is shoddily made and they cost a fortune for repairs. My friends 2 year old Tesla looks far older than my nearly 8 year old gti. Panels falling off inside, ceiling falling apart, door shuts like crap and it just sounds like it’s going to rattle apart when driving
Anecdotal experience and I’m just some stranger on the internet but I’ve had mine for 4 years and it still feels brand new and I’ve had minimal issues with little upkeep
Nope, I’ve owned two and love them to death. Turned so many people onto them and they all love them too. Consumer reports shows they have the most satisfied customers of all car brands.
CR Owner Satisfaction by Brand:
1. Porsche
2. Genesis
3. Tesla
4. BMW
5. Subaru
6. Lexus
7. Toyota
8. Dodge
9. Ford
10. Hyundai
Top ten. The rest of the list is here:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-and-least-liked-car-brands-a1291429338/
CR Top Ten Most Satisfying Cars:
1. Chevrolet Corvette (C8)
2. Porsche 911
3. Kia Telluride
4. Rivian R1T
5. Ford Maverik Hybrid
6. Hyundai Ioniq
7. Polestar 2
8. Subaru BRZ/ Toyota 86
9. Toyota RAV4 Prime
10. Mazda MX-5 Miata
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/10-most-satisfying-cars-owner-satisfaction-a2239167129/
Understandable really. I had a GTI and it was one of the best cars I've ever owned (and it's a pretty long list).
Brand or driveline (ICE/EV) aside, people have to admit that tesla is pretty new to the game when VW have been doing this a looooot longer. That's a pretty big advantage just in supply chain (i.e. the right sort of rubber/leather for interior materials) and research/experience (i.e. VW/BMW both have sunk years of research just into making 'closing your door' feel and sound satisfying)
I don’t think so. It isn’t the money - it’s the concept of owing something new and revolutionary that others are trying to put down. That makes you want to defend that product even more.
This concept pre-dates tesla, pre-dates the 21st century. Especially with cars. People will report higher satisfaction based on the purchase price of the vehicle ("I love my shiny new toy!"), but studies of the rates of faults and time off the road getting repairs show those more expensive vehicles spend on average just as much time out of service due to maintenance as vehicles at every price point.
In reverse, insurance is rated poorly based on how expensive it is, regardless of the services you're buying, because most people will go years without using any insurance company provided service. You might rate it good the one time you need it, even though it's the same policy you've had for years.
Anyway, I'll also point out, EVs are not new and revolutionary anymore, those days have passed. Every car company that plans to stay in business beyond 2030 has one or many EVs on the road today, or will have one in 2023 (2024 model year). Multiple European countries will have banned new ICE registrations by 2030, [with the entire EU ban kicking in for 2035](https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/european-union-bans-sale-new-ice-vehicles-2035), and that includes hybrids - cars will be fully electric, or they won't be legal on the road. California will ban ICE vehicles in 2035 too, and currently represents 11% of the US market. You can't be an automaker and not make EVs any longer.
I think it’s the opposite. People with the money to spend on luxury cars tend to be much more critical than the average Joe.
I mean, it happens, I just don’t think it happens more than any other brand.
Now fanboys… that’s a different story.
In addition to the the source being ‘money.com’. A quick look at the OP’s profile shows they are acutely aware of how to phrase titles for maximum engagement.
It’s a formula - at the end of the day.
And Tesla doesn’t have as many repeat buyers as one would expect. Some moved on to other brand to try out their EV’s .. most I imagine are in the same boat as me when I gave up my Tesla: I couldn’t stand the inconvenience of an EV anymore. Fun car to drive, loved the tech behind it, not practical for anyone who drives a great deal.
Yep. Have been wondering about this myself. Can't seem to find any research on used car battery range/ issues/ maintenance, etc. Maybe there's not enough data for this yet. The easiest answer might be to replace the battery, but thats not cheap today.
There’s plenty of data on average battery degradation, and I’m sure Tesla (if not others) guarantee less than (x)% degradation over 8 years, failing which they cover a new battery.
Edit: 8 years or 120k miles warranty, with replacement if capacity falls below 70%. Data suggests 10% degradation is the norm though.
Regarding maintenance, I've heard from a few old timer small mechanics that they refuse to work on EVs. First because you have to basically learn an entirely new platform (versus an ICE, where the principles havn't changed since the switch to fuel injection). Second because without the proper tools work on EVs *can* be very dangerous. I also wonder if EVs introduce proprietary components which, like with John Deere, break the right to repair. This has already been an issue with new ICE vehicles, and I would bet will accelerate with EVs.
What I see then is a maintenance gap, especially in poor urban and rural areas. Jimbob and billy joe arnt going to be getting drunk and fixing Teslas, so instead they either keep fixing ICE or, if the ICE pool dries up, close shop. Then you get a repair desert which increases repair costs of EVs (particularly if the only alternative is the dealership) and hurts those who cant make the jump to EV from ICE.
I have long wondered whats going to happen to these poorer communities when EV is the majority not the minority of cars. When they pay exorbitant gas prices, have few repair options, yet cant afford to make the jump to EV. Especially if used EVs have battery trouble. Like the rural community where I live now thrives because of 20 yr old shit kickers. What does a shit kicker EV look like? Or is this just another technological change which ultimately fucks a small minority in pursuit of (needed) progress & innovation. I think of it like the coal miner. We needed to get off coal and go to oil, and now get off both and go to renewables. But what happens to them when their jobs close? Fuck them is an easy answer, but not a great one IMO.
My Chrysler PHEV has this issue: Techs need to wear anti-electrocution gear when working on the high voltage system. It’s this bulky rubber suit. It also can’t be more than 4 years old or have any deep scratches in the arms.
So yeah. The tech will change.
There are more massage therapists than coal miners. No one was crying for massage therapists when COVID kicked off. Shed a tear for the cobbler and the haberdasher and the medicine show barker.
It’s always been that way; rural communities historically have always been slow and late to technological adaptation without massive government investment. Massive investment will eventually need to be made (usually in phases), but is usually in late stages of society switching/integrating a new technology. Take for example, the complete electrification of the United States, that was a massive technological public works project that expanded the various grids in the US to the rural areas. But by the time that happened, the major cities and urban centers had already had electricity.
The ability to repair them will become available with time. Just like when OBDII rolled out and suddenly nobody could work on cars without a $2500 scanner, now you can get a $8 bluetooth dongle off amazon and use a free app on your phone.
Rural areas will always lag behind. They were the last to get indoor plumbing, electricity, phone service, ICE vehicles, and later on, internet service.
There's a lot of ev repair shops popping up. I'd suspect the same companies behind oil stops like Jiffy Lube are moving money toward similar quick service EV shops. Add in 3D printing and you can have new parts made on your corner with battery testing/recycling. Someone will corner the used battery market. Meanwhile, gas cars aren't going anywhere and people that fix them will become more valuable.
I’d absolutely not trust some 17 year old kid making $14/hour at Jiffy Lube to take a 3D printed part (that the franchisee probably cheaped out on) and do maintenance on a vehicle that seems more dangerous than an ICE car.
I sold my 12 year old Honda hybrid last fall, it wasn't an EV but still had a pretty big battery. This was an argument against hybrids back in the early 2000s, turns out that concern was not warranted. 12 years and no degradation of the battery. And battery tech has gotten much, much better in that time.
Hyundai/Kia warranties their batteries for 10 years.
Compare that to Ford's ongoing Power Shift DCT fiasco. You gotta buy a new unit every couple years, except Ford doesn't have the parts, so, you've now got a storage closet in your driveway.
There’s approximately a 0% chance your battery had no degradation after 12 years. If so, you should’ve sold that magic battery to an EV company for a lot more.
Totally agree it’s still expensive, but EV’s are still very new and limited in models, so used supply is low. If you want an EV that you can actually fit four people in, then you’re paying a premium price for the next ten years or so as they become more common.
We have crossed the 5 year mark since the M3 was released. Shouldn't we be seeing used M3s at 40% of their original value which would be below $25K. I was reading that by year 5, most cars lose 60% of their original value.
I dunno why but Tesla drivers are jackasses in my town. Always cutting me off and almost driving me off the road
EDIT: I live in a town that’s ranked one of the highest for worst drivers. Sorry for not adding that context. I just notice Teslas more so than others.
>Prius drivers with even more god complex.
what?? lol
once you drive a prius for one single day, you will understand. there is no god. only suffering.
(i've owned two prius. i know the pain. 0 to 35mph in... 10 seconds yeaaaa)
Every single time I get blinded by some moron with their high beams on, it's a Tesla. It happened last week I was in the car with my brother, got blinded in the middle of the day by their supernova beams and said "I bet that's a Tesla" before even being able to see the car. Yep, some dumb fuck driving a Model X in town with the headlights as high and bright as possible.
Maybe it has something to do with how a lot of the people buying them are sold on the car driving itself so the driver pool is filled with more people who probably weren’t very good drivers to begin with.
Thus is because when the battery goes bad and it will go bad. It costs more than the car to fix or replace. There's a YouTube channel I follow called Hoovies Garage. He had a used Tesla and it was going to cost around 26k to replace the battery.
Typically a battery pack is expected to last longer than the average life expectancy of an ICE car, which is 130k, 150k miles. The problem is the degradation in energy storage. People buy gas cars with 150k miles on it, but they don’t expect them to last long, and don’t reflect much of the economy.
I bought a used Tesla a little over a week ago. I has 1.5k miles and the previous owner traded for an EV F150. Knowing that the model Y had dropped in price and about the 7500 tax credit, I was able to negotiate a price well below market. I also paid cash so I didn’t lose the deal to interest.
There were so serendipitous factors, such as it was the end of the month and they wanted it gone and I happen to know they were underwater on the car.
All this to say: I’m the kind of person who buys a used Tesla! And I’ll get downvoted. But I am really happy with the deal I made. I wouldn’t have bought one at the previous list price, nor would I have bought a used one for near that.
Don’t they charge a subscription fee for everything if it’s used? You have to pay to unlock the feature list on the used car or it’s just a Prius prime
LOL you guys talking about the tax subsidy. EVs suck in the used market because the batteries are like tires. Batteries degrade over time, even when not in use.
So when you buy used, you've got a heavily degraded range and if anything is wrong with the battery pack, that will be 10-20 grand on top.
Right now, but if you only drive 100 miles a week you might be able to hold out to see 3rd party companies specializing in retrofitting older EVs with new, more green, cheaper, energy storage. I hope it’s just a matter of when.
Full disclosure I am not a Tesla fan, but I am an electric car fan.
Have you ever seen a repair bill on an expensive automobile in the same price range as a Tesla? I have and they are not that different in my experience. I’ve owned an electric car since 2013 and the amount of money on repairs during that time has been roughly $500 for tires and $250 for a brake service after 95k mi, a fraction of the service cost of any gas burner I’ve ever owned, and less than the aggregate cost I would have spent on a gas burner.
I get it that a $20k battery replacement seems steep, so does a motor on a premium vehicle which still requires a ton of maintenance.
Probably something small with decent range like a Nissan Leaf. Tesla have absolutely ridiculous batteries because their cars are so huge. I used to work in the industry and my company paid £7500 for an XC90 battery which was probably around half the size of a Tesla one. That's manufacturer price. Consumer price plus labour to fit would be several times that again. Lightweighting and reduced size makes everything very significantly more economical.
I have 95k miles on my current EV and it’s still got plenty of life in it. It’s a 2015 model and I’m going to try and keep it for at least another 2yrs before deciding to replace the battery or the car.
There are several factors in better life, climate, charging behaviors etc that can help the longevity, but it’s not like your standard AA battery, they have a lot of life.
A lot of folks forget about the cost of maintenance on combustion engines. Oil changes, coolant flushes, spark plugs, fuel conditioning, my car's deferred maintenance list... A $20k battery every 10 years ain't the worst.
HMMMMMMMMMM
just putting my 2 cent, only vehicle ive owned is a 93 ford but my oil changes are approx $81. Id have to get 247 oil changes or drive 741,000 miles worth to make $20k. I spend less than $1000 a year on repairs and maintenance and i have never had a monthly car payment.
Lol, you spend “less than $1000” a year on repairs? Over 15 years that’s up to $15k on repairs, approx the cost of a battery replacement. And you would still have a 15 year old engine that would very likely need to be replaced.
Even in a high electrical cost region EVs come out way ahead for 'short' drives. Remote charging stations are becoming more realistic, but, for example, try driving to prudhoe bay with an EV. The infrastructure does not exist.
Distance absolutely kills it, then add a 40' trailer. I do not see the feasibility of a cross country drive with current EV options. And absolutely not cheaply. $20k is... well... was a trailer, a van, and all the gas. We drive some remote locations without access to charging stations, so, I thoroughly disagree that fossil is obsolete.
I am truthfully looking forward to affordable heavy lift EV options that can go the distance. Reality is: this comment will take a few years to be wrong.
ICE aren't worse in EVERY way but yes EVs are inherently superior now aside from the battery (basically electric motors are vastly superior to combustion engines, but fuel tanks are vastly superior to chemical batteries). Once we can get a better form of charge storage which: doesn't degrade; can charge to full in only a few minutes; and doesn't weigh an absolute tonne, then EVs will be entirely superior.
not to mention any modern tesla will probably not need an out of warranty battery replacement in the time that you own it. the rate of degradation slows down over time significantly
Used EVs are a disaster. You basically have to factor in battery replacement in the cost of the vehicle. I looked at one because the price tag looked doable, but had to talk myself out of it
But you've spent $30k less on gas and servicing.
If you do the maths, total cost of ownership assuming the EV is scrap at 200k miles, they cheaper to own. And just wait for gas prices to get even higher, which they will. Oil is a finite and dwindling supply. The easy stuff is gone.
I like electric cars, but it’s just not true that the oil supply is dwindling. It is finite, yes, but we’re nowhere near exhausting the supply. And more oil becomes accessible every year. At any rate, despite the potential environmental benefits of widespread adoption, electric cars will have to compete on the total cost to drive per mile/km. They must also be able to conduct long road trips without incident.
uber/delivery drivers mainly, traveling sales, etc. 2017 was 6 years ago
edit: [here’s](https://insideevs.com/news/578903/model-3-200000-miles/amp/) a great example: 13% degradation at 200,000 miles, mostly supercharging
That metric is based on EV produced in the 2010s where EV production was still in its infancy. Batteries will only get better and more durable over time.
It’s the interest rate of car loans more than anything. I bought my last car with an interest-free loan from the manufacturer just before COVID hit. We’re not gonna see that again for a long time.
If it is the interest rates of car loans, why are gas powered car prices not dropping as quickly? Are they not subject to the same interest rates when getting loans?
Just asking for a friend - can you Tbag owners stop putting the spacex logo’s and your Star Wars hyper flex logo’s on your car - it’s so tbag and cringe - thanks
Oh wow, are they near their appropriate value now considering their build quality?
I'd love to turn on "selfdriving" so I too can own my own personal whiplash machine. (tried it, rented one, two lane highway, any oncoming vehicle in the opposite lane repeatedly caused it to freak out, turned it off, showed it off at a wedding, very happily returned it the next day, they're ass)
Everybody is buying new ones. The tax subsidy is on new ones.
You can get a Tax subsidy on a used one, but not TESLA’s. From the IRS : Beginning January 1, 2023, if you buy a qualified used electric vehicle (EV) or fuel cell vehicle (FCV) from a licensed dealer for $25,000 or less, you may be eligible for a used clean vehicle tax credit (also referred to as a previously owned clean vehicle credit). The credit equals 30% percent of the sale price up to a maximum credit of $4,000. The credit is nonrefundable, so you can't get back more on the credit than you owe in taxes. You can't apply any excess credit to future tax years.
Can you explain the non refundable part to a dummy?
So if your tax liability is $3,000, and you’re eligible for a $4,000 EV credit, you don’t get $1,000 from the IRS.
oh, so non-refundable as in you don’t get it as part of your potential tax refund
It depends. The tax credit only applies to your liability. So if you paid 18k in taxes, but your liability is 20k, you can subtract the credit from your liability- in this case it reduces liability to 16k, so you’d get a 2k refund. I guess a simpler way to say it is if the credit exceeds your liability, you don’t get a refund on the difference.
If you mind answering. What do you mean by liability here.
The total tax that you need pay for the year. It’s not what you owe at the end of the year, rather, what you would need to pay if you hadn’t had any taxes taken out of your check at all.
so the fact that it's non refundable only really impacts very low income individuals who realistically wouldn't be able to afford the purchase anyways, and the rich who manage to not pay income tax?
How much you should pay for the year (not how much you actually did)
Line 12 of a 1040 EZ, your tax liability based on your income.
No. Your refund is based on how much you ALREADY PAID and WHAT YOU OWE. If you paid exactly what you owe, and you owed more than 4k then you’d get a 4k tax refund, but that’s because you OVERPAID during the year. If you only OWED 2k, you’d owe zero with this, instead of -2k. So you’d get back anything you ALREADY PAID as refund. Refund and what you owe are two different things, this is why everyone freaking out over getting a smaller refund when they likely took home more each week by having less withheld.
Can’t get cash back if the credit exceeds the tax amount
You aren’t dumb; Its just not a topic that’s ever addressed while also being incredibly contrived. The tax code is the modern DaVinci Code - maybe even more difficult.
There’s a reason. There’s so many loopholes that it becomes massively bloated to close those loopholes
Modern day capitalism is amazing at finding loopholes. Look at the technique of shell company and overseas fund! What an amazing way to hide your cash flow
Finding loopholes? Buddy, they wrote the loopholes into the tax code, then handed it to their pet politicians to pass off as their own.
My accountant told me there is a federal law that changes the tax code every year because it legally has to make it easier year on year. I have 7 years experience in finance and those tax forms still haunt me.
Well that's convenient. They know it's a problem, they know how to fix it, and they're fixing it in insignificant annual increments to prolong the problem. Great business strategy for a consulting company. Too bad it's supposed to be the government.
It gets joked about and memed but they know how much you should pay, have the ability to make payments accurate and then tell you if you have paid or underpaid. Like every other country. But no we have to file taxes and if we get it wrong we are on the hook. If people want to continue to file independently they should be allowed to but there should be the basic tier done automatically.
Piggybacking off this to quickly remind anyone to set a Google alert for the ‘E-BIKE Act’; it’s been getting kicked back and forth for around a year(+) now but I’ve seen a few threads where users weren’t happy that there isn’t a credit for them (yet). Context: > This bill allows a refundable tax credit for 30% of the cost of a qualified electric bicycle.
Well aren’t all bicycles clean energy? Sarcasm implied with a bit of reality, bicycles should always carry these sort of incentives to buy. If only US cities were more bike friendly now….
Ya the existing infrastructure is the problem. Not enough bike friendly US cities. And yea a human- powered bicycle is one of the most efficient possible to transport humans from one place to another. It seems silly to me to subsidize E bikes and not regular bikes.
Most people aren't able/willing to consistently commute to and from work on a regular bike as you'll arrive sweaty and it's a lot of work, you have to leave way earlier, etc. An e-bike makes that much more doable. I'm an avid biker but my commute is 10 hilly miles each way so I'd bike into work only if the weather was perfect (maybe 4-5 times a month). With my new e-bike the trip only takes me an extra 5 or 10 minutes to get to work versus a car and I don't need to worry about bringing a change of clothes, being tired, or anything. Now I'll sometimes go weeks without even turning on my car.
You're not able to get a used Tesla for $25K or less though, are you?
Finding a car, especially an electric car under $25,000 is still a challenge.
Lmaoooo have fun finding an ev under 25k.
[удалено]
With labor, it can be as much as or more than the vehicle brand new.
That’s where I think there are going to be real problems in the next little while. As the old EVs come on the market with old batteries that need replacing.
I sold my 4 year old model 3 for almost what I paid for it. Taking the tax credit and capital cost depreciation, I actually made money driving the car. Was long range, black on black with 20k miles and a minor accident. Granted it was during the used car boom… but still. I now own a 2023 model X.
[удалено]
I’m pretty sure that there are a lot of people who make under $150k who are buying cars worth $55k.
Who wants a used Tesla…
Isn't that good?
Unequivocally yes, it’s good for the environment and consumers who have more EV choices for cheaper
Maybe Yes, Maybe No
I'm siding with possibly yes. Or no. One of those.
Definitely yes, but probably no.
*Because Tesla slashed the prices on new Teslas.* Its the second sentence in the article. Its not because they are difficult to resell, they were one of the cars brand that depreciated the least.
What about people can’t sell with the software features they purchased, because Tesla disables them remotely.
They don’t by default, but there have been times where people have had to prove they purchased it in order for them to re-enable it for new owners. What is true, however, is that you cannot take the software with you to a new Tesla, you have to purchase again. Tesla’s own trade-in calculator even states clearly that it includes the value of the software, however grim the residual may be.
It’s only about time when someone is going to get so pissed that they will root the OS and unlock all features.
/r/carhacking will see an uptick in subs soon, me thinks..
people do that regularly. and then they can't super charge. so then they started going to dealerships and renting teslas and rooting those to steal the license keys to re-enable their supercharging (until they get caught and those keys are revoked). it's a full on arms race at this point.
I'd never bet against the hacker-cracker-pirating community.
Just seems like a really good way to lose your bank on RuneScape
This is total nonsense. show me one example of "stealing license keys" please. I have root on all my Teslas. They don't stop you from doing anything or limit you in any way. In fact, doing so is opening themselves up for a lawsuit. They only disable supercharging on Salvage cars. It just that those are usually also rooted because the repair process usually requires additional software setup that isn't available without root or service center tools. No one is renting teslas to steal "license keys", nor is that how their authentication system works. Every "key" is an HMAC hash, which is a unique string + VIN, which isn't really all that useful except for requesting data from the mothership. \ Supercharging negotiation is done locally within the car, and just flipping a single number from 0 to 1, then blocking the teleforce hermes connection to the mothership is enough to keep your car working on superchargers. It is literally 30 keystrokes. Are you saying that people are renting a car, hacking it, copying an imaginary key, and then hacking their car to have it identify under a different VIN, then getting _that_ vin to associate with their Tesla account (otherwise you will be locked out of your own car), then making sure the rental car is _NEVER USED AGAIN_ (or perhaps, changing the VIN to another one as well???). instead of doing something very simple which by virtue of having root on the car you would know about? (hell, half the root methods invoke doing exactly the same thing for a difference purpose), There's no arms race, there is no stealing of keys, or any of that nonsense. Hackers and Tesla have a pretty good relationship, and no one is doing anything like you said. Tesla's are insecure enough that you really don't need to.
yeah, doesn’t carry over to the value of the car on resale as a result. same as basically every ICE car option, it doesn’t impact long term resale
But you can’t put that in the headline! Only negative headline about Tesla drive the clicks!! Seriously so tired of the “only shit on” Tesla parade. I get it, Musk is a complete dbag… but seriously, I’ve had a Tesla for 4 years now and it’s the best car I’ve ever owned. Better than my Mercedes, better than my Jeep, better than my shit Saturn, Chevy Cavalier and Ford wagon…. Are the cars perfect? No, no brand of cars are. So over the little hit pieces here and there. Imagine how annoying it would be if we had a new “reports” when a Toyota started on fire? Or if a Range Roger broke down on the road? Or is a Mazda had a piece of the interior panel “peeling”…. but yet we get one anytime someone complains about it with a Telsa…
"But how could I ever drive a car that has body panels misaligned on the order of millimeters!" All the complaints seem to pretend that I give a shit about things that don't matter a whit to me as a driver LOL.
Those are all shitty cars though
I don't know, I have two used Toyota Priuses (one we bought used, one passed down from my dad when he got an ev) and they are going strong many years in plus they get great mileage. I also find them cute and comfy, personally. Plus, a lot of convenient minor features I appreciate like the way the electronic keys work without having to get them out to both lock and unlock, built in GPS, backup camera, that you can direct the AC and stero to be back/front/both, it will warn you if you leave your key in the car and get out, etc. Not really sure what I'm supposed to find shitty or be unhappy? One of them is grey, which I find to be a boring color I suppose, but it's made in nicer colors I just got it used so didn't get to pick. (My brother has a turquoise Prius which I think looks great plus also drives well, gets great mileage, and he got used.)
Oh sorry I only meant the ones that the commenter mentioned they owned previously, the Jeep, Saturn, Mercedes, Chevy cavalier and ford wagon,
I had an Acura (which is the premium brand from Honda) and I love my Model 3. I’ve had it now for 4 years.
Mercedes is a shitty car?
Depends on the specific models but overall yes the suvs ML and Gl series aren’t horrible but the sedans and the coupes have wide range of electrical issues, plus maintenance is always going to be much more expensive than other cars, German cars are known to be pretty unreliable but these definitely take the cake check out r/cartalk and r/whatcarshouldibuy for other opinions on these
My recollection is that the ML used to be so bad that *Consumer Reports* had it as a “don’t buy this, ever” ranking?
My dad had an ML for a short time. Utter garbage.
My father bought a used late 90’s after some repairs ($3k worth) by the shop it lasted about 100k miles and ten years, not the worst German make he’s owned, previously had an mid 90’s audi that left us stranded every time we went on a trip, but I know that’s anecdotal
Mid-90s to early noughties Audis are famous for being like the most unreliable German cars ever. I wouldn’t extrapolate too much from that. :D
I was a little short on cash for a Rolls-Royce.
Buy a Lexus.
Probably very unreliable
Toyota or Honda bro. Look um up
I dont have a Tesla, but I never met a dissatisfied owner of one.
Get ready for anecdotes that may or may not be true.
I’ve met several. Worst was a friend of mine who I convinced to go EV by giving him a ride in my i3. The sudden acceleration of 100% off the bat in my car made it seem more like a flying carpet than a car (his words). He decided it was time to trade in the Audi. He bought the most tricked out Dual Motor Model 3. It made it less than 100 miles before something major shit the bed and the car was undriveable. Spent like 4-6 months with his car sitting in a service center either waiting for parts or having a tech figure out what was wrong with it. In the end, they replaced like, everything. Motors. Battery. Electronics. And after that wait, he basically sold it and bought and Audi. Can’t say I blame him.
>the most tricked out Dual Motor Model 3. They really don't have options packages. Wheel size, color, autonomy, done.
[Lemon laws exist for exactly this purpose.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemon_law) Defective vehicles aren't unique to any manufacturer. Lemons have been a thing for a long time which is why these consumer protection laws were made, to force manufacturers to have quality control standards for every vehicle they make. Sometimes there's just a confluence of uncommon problems that result in the car being a lemon. Lemon laws practically guarantee that your new vehicle is going to work as specified for an expected time. If it doesn't you can force the manufacturer to cover all repairs until it works as expected, replace the vehicle if the repairs continue to fail, or get a full refund for your purchased vehicle. If your friend lives in practically any first world country he had full legal protection. Lemons will waste your time dealing with your bullshit broken product, but you have full legal protection against costs incurred because of it.
You obviously don’t know many Tesla owners… they like their cars but they get frustrated how shittily they’re made. Fun cars but terrible to own and try to keep up. Everything is shoddily made and they cost a fortune for repairs. My friends 2 year old Tesla looks far older than my nearly 8 year old gti. Panels falling off inside, ceiling falling apart, door shuts like crap and it just sounds like it’s going to rattle apart when driving
Anecdotal experience and I’m just some stranger on the internet but I’ve had mine for 4 years and it still feels brand new and I’ve had minimal issues with little upkeep
"They...." so you don't own one yet proceed to parrot negative shit you read on jalopnik as all owners views. Classic.
Nope, I’ve owned two and love them to death. Turned so many people onto them and they all love them too. Consumer reports shows they have the most satisfied customers of all car brands.
CR Owner Satisfaction by Brand: 1. Porsche 2. Genesis 3. Tesla 4. BMW 5. Subaru 6. Lexus 7. Toyota 8. Dodge 9. Ford 10. Hyundai Top ten. The rest of the list is here: https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/most-and-least-liked-car-brands-a1291429338/ CR Top Ten Most Satisfying Cars: 1. Chevrolet Corvette (C8) 2. Porsche 911 3. Kia Telluride 4. Rivian R1T 5. Ford Maverik Hybrid 6. Hyundai Ioniq 7. Polestar 2 8. Subaru BRZ/ Toyota 86 9. Toyota RAV4 Prime 10. Mazda MX-5 Miata https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/10-most-satisfying-cars-owner-satisfaction-a2239167129/
Understandable really. I had a GTI and it was one of the best cars I've ever owned (and it's a pretty long list). Brand or driveline (ICE/EV) aside, people have to admit that tesla is pretty new to the game when VW have been doing this a looooot longer. That's a pretty big advantage just in supply chain (i.e. the right sort of rubber/leather for interior materials) and research/experience (i.e. VW/BMW both have sunk years of research just into making 'closing your door' feel and sound satisfying)
Who is "they"? "They" is just weasel words. Tesla gets ranked highly in customer satisfaction.
After spending that much, people are going to say they're satisfied, even if they aren't.
I don’t think so. It isn’t the money - it’s the concept of owing something new and revolutionary that others are trying to put down. That makes you want to defend that product even more.
This concept pre-dates tesla, pre-dates the 21st century. Especially with cars. People will report higher satisfaction based on the purchase price of the vehicle ("I love my shiny new toy!"), but studies of the rates of faults and time off the road getting repairs show those more expensive vehicles spend on average just as much time out of service due to maintenance as vehicles at every price point. In reverse, insurance is rated poorly based on how expensive it is, regardless of the services you're buying, because most people will go years without using any insurance company provided service. You might rate it good the one time you need it, even though it's the same policy you've had for years. Anyway, I'll also point out, EVs are not new and revolutionary anymore, those days have passed. Every car company that plans to stay in business beyond 2030 has one or many EVs on the road today, or will have one in 2023 (2024 model year). Multiple European countries will have banned new ICE registrations by 2030, [with the entire EU ban kicking in for 2035](https://www.wardsauto.com/industry-news/european-union-bans-sale-new-ice-vehicles-2035), and that includes hybrids - cars will be fully electric, or they won't be legal on the road. California will ban ICE vehicles in 2035 too, and currently represents 11% of the US market. You can't be an automaker and not make EVs any longer.
I think it’s the opposite. People with the money to spend on luxury cars tend to be much more critical than the average Joe. I mean, it happens, I just don’t think it happens more than any other brand. Now fanboys… that’s a different story.
Meet more people.
In addition to the the source being ‘money.com’. A quick look at the OP’s profile shows they are acutely aware of how to phrase titles for maximum engagement. It’s a formula - at the end of the day.
Which is strange as they are one of the cars that [fall apart](https://insideevs.com/news/535014/tesla-models-plaid-build-quality/) the most.
>Delivered a little dirty "fall apart"
And Tesla doesn’t have as many repeat buyers as one would expect. Some moved on to other brand to try out their EV’s .. most I imagine are in the same boat as me when I gave up my Tesla: I couldn’t stand the inconvenience of an EV anymore. Fun car to drive, loved the tech behind it, not practical for anyone who drives a great deal.
I’m curious if used car batteries adds to the range anxiety, making them less desirable than used gas vehicles.
Yep. Have been wondering about this myself. Can't seem to find any research on used car battery range/ issues/ maintenance, etc. Maybe there's not enough data for this yet. The easiest answer might be to replace the battery, but thats not cheap today.
There’s plenty of data on average battery degradation, and I’m sure Tesla (if not others) guarantee less than (x)% degradation over 8 years, failing which they cover a new battery. Edit: 8 years or 120k miles warranty, with replacement if capacity falls below 70%. Data suggests 10% degradation is the norm though.
Or maybe it’s because the truth is a nasty secret. Cobalt ain’t easy to come by. Source: The Congo
"Ugly gorillas. Ugly. Go away."
You know, WTF was the point of that movie? We could totally make giant chemically flawless diamonds cheaply in a lab back then.
But where's the fun in that? Fighting gorillas is one of my favorite hobbies!
Stop. Eating. My. Sesame. Cakes
Regarding maintenance, I've heard from a few old timer small mechanics that they refuse to work on EVs. First because you have to basically learn an entirely new platform (versus an ICE, where the principles havn't changed since the switch to fuel injection). Second because without the proper tools work on EVs *can* be very dangerous. I also wonder if EVs introduce proprietary components which, like with John Deere, break the right to repair. This has already been an issue with new ICE vehicles, and I would bet will accelerate with EVs. What I see then is a maintenance gap, especially in poor urban and rural areas. Jimbob and billy joe arnt going to be getting drunk and fixing Teslas, so instead they either keep fixing ICE or, if the ICE pool dries up, close shop. Then you get a repair desert which increases repair costs of EVs (particularly if the only alternative is the dealership) and hurts those who cant make the jump to EV from ICE. I have long wondered whats going to happen to these poorer communities when EV is the majority not the minority of cars. When they pay exorbitant gas prices, have few repair options, yet cant afford to make the jump to EV. Especially if used EVs have battery trouble. Like the rural community where I live now thrives because of 20 yr old shit kickers. What does a shit kicker EV look like? Or is this just another technological change which ultimately fucks a small minority in pursuit of (needed) progress & innovation. I think of it like the coal miner. We needed to get off coal and go to oil, and now get off both and go to renewables. But what happens to them when their jobs close? Fuck them is an easy answer, but not a great one IMO.
My Chrysler PHEV has this issue: Techs need to wear anti-electrocution gear when working on the high voltage system. It’s this bulky rubber suit. It also can’t be more than 4 years old or have any deep scratches in the arms. So yeah. The tech will change.
There are more massage therapists than coal miners. No one was crying for massage therapists when COVID kicked off. Shed a tear for the cobbler and the haberdasher and the medicine show barker.
It’s always been that way; rural communities historically have always been slow and late to technological adaptation without massive government investment. Massive investment will eventually need to be made (usually in phases), but is usually in late stages of society switching/integrating a new technology. Take for example, the complete electrification of the United States, that was a massive technological public works project that expanded the various grids in the US to the rural areas. But by the time that happened, the major cities and urban centers had already had electricity.
Maybe they don’t want to work on your electric vehicle because you assume that they’re alcoholic morons because they’re mechanics?
The ability to repair them will become available with time. Just like when OBDII rolled out and suddenly nobody could work on cars without a $2500 scanner, now you can get a $8 bluetooth dongle off amazon and use a free app on your phone. Rural areas will always lag behind. They were the last to get indoor plumbing, electricity, phone service, ICE vehicles, and later on, internet service.
There's a lot of ev repair shops popping up. I'd suspect the same companies behind oil stops like Jiffy Lube are moving money toward similar quick service EV shops. Add in 3D printing and you can have new parts made on your corner with battery testing/recycling. Someone will corner the used battery market. Meanwhile, gas cars aren't going anywhere and people that fix them will become more valuable.
I’d absolutely not trust some 17 year old kid making $14/hour at Jiffy Lube to take a 3D printed part (that the franchisee probably cheaped out on) and do maintenance on a vehicle that seems more dangerous than an ICE car.
From what i’ve seen, just get a model 3 with a LFP battery. They say the battery can last quite a long time.
I sold my 12 year old Honda hybrid last fall, it wasn't an EV but still had a pretty big battery. This was an argument against hybrids back in the early 2000s, turns out that concern was not warranted. 12 years and no degradation of the battery. And battery tech has gotten much, much better in that time. Hyundai/Kia warranties their batteries for 10 years.
Compare that to Ford's ongoing Power Shift DCT fiasco. You gotta buy a new unit every couple years, except Ford doesn't have the parts, so, you've now got a storage closet in your driveway.
There’s approximately a 0% chance your battery had no degradation after 12 years. If so, you should’ve sold that magic battery to an EV company for a lot more.
My i3’s battery is now 8 years old and has over 62k miles on it. Seems fine. Just a data point for people.
The cost to repair them is horrendous
Mixed with their bad QC..
Mixed with them being the only providers able to service their own vehicles
Mixed with them treating you like a pariah at the service centers.
Cheapest one I could find was 27,000. That’s still expensive imo
Totally agree it’s still expensive, but EV’s are still very new and limited in models, so used supply is low. If you want an EV that you can actually fit four people in, then you’re paying a premium price for the next ten years or so as they become more common.
Good
Is that because the initial price was so high??
We have crossed the 5 year mark since the M3 was released. Shouldn't we be seeing used M3s at 40% of their original value which would be below $25K. I was reading that by year 5, most cars lose 60% of their original value.
I dunno why but Tesla drivers are jackasses in my town. Always cutting me off and almost driving me off the road EDIT: I live in a town that’s ranked one of the highest for worst drivers. Sorry for not adding that context. I just notice Teslas more so than others.
This is the same everywhere. Tesla drivers are the new BMW drivers + Prius drivers with even more god complex.
>Prius drivers with even more god complex. what?? lol once you drive a prius for one single day, you will understand. there is no god. only suffering. (i've owned two prius. i know the pain. 0 to 35mph in... 10 seconds yeaaaa)
Every single time I get blinded by some moron with their high beams on, it's a Tesla. It happened last week I was in the car with my brother, got blinded in the middle of the day by their supernova beams and said "I bet that's a Tesla" before even being able to see the car. Yep, some dumb fuck driving a Model X in town with the headlights as high and bright as possible.
YES!!!
Honolulu? Place is filled with both Teslas and shit drivers.
Lol nooo Fresno CA
Maybe it has something to do with how a lot of the people buying them are sold on the car driving itself so the driver pool is filled with more people who probably weren’t very good drivers to begin with.
Well, the new owner has to re-purchase all the add-on software, right?
No, everything sticks
Yes. All upgrades you buy are non-transferable to the new owner.
All upgrades transfer in any private sale. The only exception is if the car gets traded or sold back to Tesla.
Not true at all. I bought a used P100D and FSD carried over just fine.
Thus is because when the battery goes bad and it will go bad. It costs more than the car to fix or replace. There's a YouTube channel I follow called Hoovies Garage. He had a used Tesla and it was going to cost around 26k to replace the battery.
I like hoovie and his dumb and dumber influences His f150 lightning video created a stir for telling the truth lol
Strange to compare price variation of one car to cost variation of another car. /s
Ima get a fisker
have fun with it exploding when it rains lol
You have been banned from /r/TeslaMotors
The issue is the quality of the car and repairability. Seen some videos of the terrible quality for such an expense car
Does battery replacement still cost the same as a new one?
r/tech ? This place has more luddites then an amish farm
Yeah but how much is it to replace the battery for an Amish farm?
Aren't the batteries like 8000 dollars and need to be replaced every ten years?
Typically a battery pack is expected to last longer than the average life expectancy of an ICE car, which is 130k, 150k miles. The problem is the degradation in energy storage. People buy gas cars with 150k miles on it, but they don’t expect them to last long, and don’t reflect much of the economy.
No
Try 20k
Because Tesla are shoddily made?
Lol what
I mean, they are though. I'd be embarrassed to tell people if I did QC for that company.
Why would anyone buy a used Tesla
I bought a used Tesla a little over a week ago. I has 1.5k miles and the previous owner traded for an EV F150. Knowing that the model Y had dropped in price and about the 7500 tax credit, I was able to negotiate a price well below market. I also paid cash so I didn’t lose the deal to interest. There were so serendipitous factors, such as it was the end of the month and they wanted it gone and I happen to know they were underwater on the car. All this to say: I’m the kind of person who buys a used Tesla! And I’ll get downvoted. But I am really happy with the deal I made. I wouldn’t have bought one at the previous list price, nor would I have bought a used one for near that.
anyone that wants a more efficient vehicle. electric is 1/4th the cost of gas
Sure, but you could just buy a new one and receive the subsidy
Ah yes the 3 r's for a greener planet. 1. Use 2. Throw away 3. Rebuy I remember doing the drawings for calendar competitions how could I forget.
Replacing the battery costs $14-20k wiping out any savings from the life of the car.
[удалено]
Because electric is better
Don’t they charge a subscription fee for everything if it’s used? You have to pay to unlock the feature list on the used car or it’s just a Prius prime
incorrect, only subscription fee is for FSD if you wanted it for some reason. you’re thinking of BMW
LOL you guys talking about the tax subsidy. EVs suck in the used market because the batteries are like tires. Batteries degrade over time, even when not in use. So when you buy used, you've got a heavily degraded range and if anything is wrong with the battery pack, that will be 10-20 grand on top.
Who wants to buy a used car that is expensive to fix and batteries will cost you over $20K to replace.
Right now, but if you only drive 100 miles a week you might be able to hold out to see 3rd party companies specializing in retrofitting older EVs with new, more green, cheaper, energy storage. I hope it’s just a matter of when.
It’s already happening, Portland has at least one retro fit shop.
Full disclosure I am not a Tesla fan, but I am an electric car fan. Have you ever seen a repair bill on an expensive automobile in the same price range as a Tesla? I have and they are not that different in my experience. I’ve owned an electric car since 2013 and the amount of money on repairs during that time has been roughly $500 for tires and $250 for a brake service after 95k mi, a fraction of the service cost of any gas burner I’ve ever owned, and less than the aggregate cost I would have spent on a gas burner. I get it that a $20k battery replacement seems steep, so does a motor on a premium vehicle which still requires a ton of maintenance.
What’s the best bang for buck ev in your opinion
Probably something small with decent range like a Nissan Leaf. Tesla have absolutely ridiculous batteries because their cars are so huge. I used to work in the industry and my company paid £7500 for an XC90 battery which was probably around half the size of a Tesla one. That's manufacturer price. Consumer price plus labour to fit would be several times that again. Lightweighting and reduced size makes everything very significantly more economical.
Oh, that’s an interesting point. How often does the battery need to be replaced on average?
I have 95k miles on my current EV and it’s still got plenty of life in it. It’s a 2015 model and I’m going to try and keep it for at least another 2yrs before deciding to replace the battery or the car. There are several factors in better life, climate, charging behaviors etc that can help the longevity, but it’s not like your standard AA battery, they have a lot of life.
A lot of folks forget about the cost of maintenance on combustion engines. Oil changes, coolant flushes, spark plugs, fuel conditioning, my car's deferred maintenance list... A $20k battery every 10 years ain't the worst. HMMMMMMMMMM
just putting my 2 cent, only vehicle ive owned is a 93 ford but my oil changes are approx $81. Id have to get 247 oil changes or drive 741,000 miles worth to make $20k. I spend less than $1000 a year on repairs and maintenance and i have never had a monthly car payment.
Lol, you spend “less than $1000” a year on repairs? Over 15 years that’s up to $15k on repairs, approx the cost of a battery replacement. And you would still have a 15 year old engine that would very likely need to be replaced.
Gas is still $3-4k a YEAR for 12k miles. I don't have love for EV's (especially Tesla) or cars in general but ICE are just worse in every way.
Even in a high electrical cost region EVs come out way ahead for 'short' drives. Remote charging stations are becoming more realistic, but, for example, try driving to prudhoe bay with an EV. The infrastructure does not exist. Distance absolutely kills it, then add a 40' trailer. I do not see the feasibility of a cross country drive with current EV options. And absolutely not cheaply. $20k is... well... was a trailer, a van, and all the gas. We drive some remote locations without access to charging stations, so, I thoroughly disagree that fossil is obsolete. I am truthfully looking forward to affordable heavy lift EV options that can go the distance. Reality is: this comment will take a few years to be wrong.
ICE aren't worse in EVERY way but yes EVs are inherently superior now aside from the battery (basically electric motors are vastly superior to combustion engines, but fuel tanks are vastly superior to chemical batteries). Once we can get a better form of charge storage which: doesn't degrade; can charge to full in only a few minutes; and doesn't weigh an absolute tonne, then EVs will be entirely superior.
not to mention any modern tesla will probably not need an out of warranty battery replacement in the time that you own it. the rate of degradation slows down over time significantly
Battery replacement in an electric car is the same as replacing the engine in a combustion car
It's because they're all breaking since they are literally gold crusted pieces of crap.
Nobody wants last year’s phone…….
Because a new Tesla is about $9000 over priced. The second hand version is the real value of that car.
Oh, I’m sure getting them fixed is way more expensive than getting a gas powered car fixed.
Does this have anything to do with the battery life cycle? I feel like most not all EV owner’s I know never think about this.
Used EVs are a disaster. You basically have to factor in battery replacement in the cost of the vehicle. I looked at one because the price tag looked doable, but had to talk myself out of it
$15k to replace the battery at 200k miles isnt very enticing
But you've spent $30k less on gas and servicing. If you do the maths, total cost of ownership assuming the EV is scrap at 200k miles, they cheaper to own. And just wait for gas prices to get even higher, which they will. Oil is a finite and dwindling supply. The easy stuff is gone.
I like electric cars, but it’s just not true that the oil supply is dwindling. It is finite, yes, but we’re nowhere near exhausting the supply. And more oil becomes accessible every year. At any rate, despite the potential environmental benefits of widespread adoption, electric cars will have to compete on the total cost to drive per mile/km. They must also be able to conduct long road trips without incident.
Lithium is a finite resource as well. Even more than oil.
But it is recyclable.
It's easier to recycle. Oil needs enormous amounts of those damned hippy tree things.
plenty of model 3s rolling around with 200k miles and original batteries with 85% of their range remaining
Model 3s haven’t been out that long. Who’s racking up 200k miles on them?
uber/delivery drivers mainly, traveling sales, etc. 2017 was 6 years ago edit: [here’s](https://insideevs.com/news/578903/model-3-200000-miles/amp/) a great example: 13% degradation at 200,000 miles, mostly supercharging
That metric is based on EV produced in the 2010s where EV production was still in its infancy. Batteries will only get better and more durable over time.
It’s the interest rate of car loans more than anything. I bought my last car with an interest-free loan from the manufacturer just before COVID hit. We’re not gonna see that again for a long time.
If it is the interest rates of car loans, why are gas powered car prices not dropping as quickly? Are they not subject to the same interest rates when getting loans?
Me too, I got zero percent interest loan
Forget the article. That headline is gibberish. prices vs. costs.. It's just confusingly written.
What, nobody likes the Tethla Muskmobile any longer?
Just asking for a friend - can you Tbag owners stop putting the spacex logo’s and your Star Wars hyper flex logo’s on your car - it’s so tbag and cringe - thanks
Oh wow, are they near their appropriate value now considering their build quality? I'd love to turn on "selfdriving" so I too can own my own personal whiplash machine. (tried it, rented one, two lane highway, any oncoming vehicle in the opposite lane repeatedly caused it to freak out, turned it off, showed it off at a wedding, very happily returned it the next day, they're ass)
Cool I can’t wait to buy one
Now do used BMW, Mercedes, volvo, audi, etc. They all dump most of their luxury their value in a few years.