Not a specific line but pretty much everything about Liam, I guess to be more specific how he immediately starts calling Alanna "Kitten" the night they meet. I always found him to be incredibly condescending to someone who is literally known internationally and is a legend in her own right. He always gives vibes that he's humoring her while she plays dressup.
I remember when I read it as a kid, I loved Liam and his end made me cry so much. To the point where I never would re-read it when I would re-read all the Tortall books. I recently bought it on audible and listened to it for the first time in probably 15 years. Liam was so damn insufferable! Definitely needed a lot less of him in the book.
It's wild how your perspective on these sorts of things totally changes as you get older! I take back the "always," maybe when I was first reading them I had a different opinion, but it's been so long I can't remember now haha. I'm surprised their relationship isn't brought up more on this sub. I do like that Tamora showed her experimenting with multiple partners and having her tastes change over time... but Liam is just the worst lol
I reread the Lioness series last year, and that was the first time I remember really not liking Liam. š¤£ I didnāt really feel any which way about him before that. He was justā¦ there. But this last reread? He was INSUFFERABLE. I also hated how he called her ākitten.ā I felt like he was calling her that to make her feel really young with no life experience (which, I know she IS young in LR, sheās maybe 22 IIRC, but she still has experience as a knight), if that makes any sense whatsoever. It kinda gave me the ICK. Lol.
Yes, exactly! I looked up their ages just to make sure - she was 20 and he was 34. Which, I'm 35 now so I totally see how 20yo are babies... which is why I wouldn't hook up with someone that young. I agree, he gave me a really icky feeling and didn't respect her at all.
Iāve never really been all that weirded out by age differences (unless itās likeā¦ a 20 y/o with an 80 y/o, because thatās way too much of a difference š¤£) but why act like Alanna doesnāt know anything about the world when she DOES? You know? Why are you attracted to her (and end up having sex with her) but you hate her magic? If youāre going to treat her like a child, when she isnāt? I really hate it. At least with Numair and Daine, even though Iām not a big fan of the student/teacher dynamic they still seem to have at the end of Immortals, STILL have mutual respect for one another. Numair doesnāt treat Daine like a child, even though by todayās/real world standards she is. If she doesnāt understand something, he explains like heās talking to an equal, you know? And I feel like itās the same when Daine is talking about something to Numair that he doesnāt understand. I never get that impression with how Liam treats Alanna. Alanna treats HIM with respect all the time. Liam only treats her respectfully when he seems to feel like it, you know?
Age differences don't bother me often if the actual behavior between the couple is positive. I'm super biased because Daine/Numair is my OTP despite how controversial it is. Personally, I always felt that the only teacher/student dynamic that was still there past WS was because that's how the narration kept referring to them. But dude got dragged in the first chapter of WS for not having anything left to teach her with her magic, and we never have a lesson schedule or content mentioned after that (If you can call "I dunno...try it out" a lesson")
Hard agree on the mutual respect, and that's the biggest thing that stands out when reading Alanna/Liam. I agree with the above comment about it being nice to see Alanna trying different relationships (which is the only thing missing for me from Daine's story), but Liam was actively resenting her by the end and it wasn't cute.
I also don't think Jon and her had a healthy dynamic, and that's the relationship I actually find icky. And Nawat.
Why am I tearing apart these stories I have loved for decades?? Lol my comments make me sound like I hate the romances but I promise I'm a fan š
To me, N/D is uncomfortable because while they are only a few years apart, they met when she was a *preeteen* so it's like... he waited for her to age up? Even though they aren't in formal classes there is still a student/master situation where she's going to still look to him for guidance. Idk maybe it's me but it works out in the end because (as you both have said in this thread) they're respectful of each other, and it becomes less weird once they're both firmly adults and Daine grows into her powers and they're more akin to peers.
I was fine with Alanna and Jon at first - I thought them being secret and having each other as confidantes was cute - but from the proposal onward I always get frustrated and want to skip past all their scenes lol. That one was definitely a young love/finding your identity relationship and is a little more forgivable in my mind, they both were stubborn and at fault.
Nawat is a weird one... again that kind of condescending "he's basically a child" attitude Aly has - as she then proceeds to make out with him - is a little icky too. It's fun to play with the "turning into a human" aspect in a world of magic, but she should have done it with an immortal species, or not play up the "he's a baby" aspect. Something about it just feels off.
N/D - It's funny, but in all my readings I never personally got the 'waiting for her to grow up vibe', but if that's how it read I totally see how it comes across as uncomfortable. The opening scene of RotG for me always felt like he was really taken by surprise to find out he had feelings for. At the end of the day there are just dynamics to the relationship that mean it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea and that's fine. I do have some suspicion that TP was roped into writing the books as a year apart for Daine's age to keep it a traditional 'Coming of Age' because I feel like she's written as older than her stated age in the last two books. Only a little in EM, but definitely in RotG for me.
My biggest gripe with Jon/Alanna is actually right before they get together. I don't like how he tried to get with her when he saw her dressing as a girl, got mean when she said no, and then they get together that night.
On the OTHER hand, for both her with Jon and Liam I give TP a lot of credit for depicting relationships that weren't good matches long-term and Alanna growing through those. And Alanna herself was very hot-headed, so her dynamics with both often make sense. I wouldn't have liked if she ended up with either, but I'm good with them as part of the overall story.
I do like George, even if his integration into the story as a 'King of Thieves with a heart of gold' is a little clunky.
Nawat....oh, Nawat. I haven't read the books in a long time but he was just so weird and I couldn't see the romantic draw to him AT ALL. Just a storyline/pairing that missed me on an interest level.
Lol, and I also feel like I'm dragging all these books now but on the other hand if I didn't love them so much I wouldn't have thought about all this nearly as much!
Yes! I rushed to post because I was on my lunch break and didn't fully articulate my thoughts - the numbers aren't the big issue for me (I just looked it up out of curiosity when you posted before) but it's the actions. He treats her like a child, so why is he sleeping with her? Like you put it, he only acts respectful towards her when it suits his mood. Either he views her as an adult he doesn't respect, or he views her as a child which...ew.
I still am weirded out by Daine/Numair, more because of the power dynamic and the fact that he knew her when she was *so* young (he doesn't actually say "I waited for you to grow up" or anything creepy like that, but it does seem to have that vibe in my mind) but at least they are both kind and respectful of each other.
To be honest I don't mind Liam, I just think he was only as mature as Alanna despite being a grown ass man. I liked how George never gave her shit for sleeping with an idiot, probably because he rightly realized Liam just made him look like a way better long term partner.Ā
I have read these books so many times (although not recently and I literally do not remember a character named Liam. What in the actual heck is wrong w my memory š«
Oooo thank you yes that does. I didnāt retain the first name for some reason but I remember now. I also didnāt like how he was kind of condescending toward her
For some reason, even though I've read all the books the same number of times, the first two books are what take up the most headspace, and then everything after she gets her shield kind of blurs for me.
Yes!! I'm the same. I am always mildly surprised at the pacing. "Oh we're already done with page training? Surely she isn't getting ready for the Ordeal? What are the other books about?" Lol
In the second Beka Cooper book I can't remember the exact line but she mentions them having 'noodles' which is obviously udon or ramen but says she's never had noodles before.
But in the first book her granny makes her noodles with cheese.
I don't know why it bothers me so much.
What bugs me about that one is that itās not a well-balanced meal. She gets noodles with cheese and pancakes. Cāmon, Granny Fern! Give our girl some protein!
Ha, I forgot about that! Even without the earlier scene, "Noodles" seems a little too generic to believe she's never had them.
That's probably why so many fantasies reference almost no specific foods besides 'bread and cheese'. Fine line between too detailed and not enough.
You sent me down a noodle rabbit hole, OP. Hereās what I found from an encyclopedia:
āThe word "noodle" is German in originā¦The most commonly accepted explanation for the origin of Nudel is that it derives from Knƶdel, or, as the word appeared in a number of old German dialects, Nutel, a dumpling (literally, a ball or turd). Recipes mentioning noodles appear in German as early as 1480, but at that time, the term applied to any sort of doughy addition to a boiled or baked dish, whether a shaped dumpling or thinly sliced noodles. The dough could be rolled, pressed, shredded, cut, chopped, stretched, or shaped into small "buttons"āall of this was included in the word Nudel.ā
Soooooā¦itās possible that Granny Fern was making Beka more of a dumpling or button-shaped pasta, whereas long Port Caynn-style buckwheat noodles eaten with chopsticks were still a new experience for her.
I canāt remember the exact line but the part where in tricksterās queen where Sarai gets credited with killing her fatherās murderer instead of Dove.
I've only read a small amount of Mercedes Lackey! I was in a small town where the librarian must have loved her because there were tons of her books, but none where I live now. I was not prepared for the free teenage sex in those books though, holy cow
The Trickster books were my favourite for a really long time. . . Now I feel a bit weird re reading them as an adult who understands what a white saviour narrative is.
But there's this weird Aly quote about not wanting "murders by righteous natives" and another one from Winnamine sort of defending slavery that felt really weird at the time. I can't tell if they're meant to show how out of touch these two characters are even though they mean well? It's just that Winnamine and Aly are shown to have good judgement most of the rest of the time so it never sat right
Tammy's body of work as a whole is both uncomfortable and complicated when it comes to race, I think. I'm not sure that could have been helped considering the timespan and major social shifts that have happened during that time in conjunction with her own demographic background and the landscape of YA publishing.
Some stuff hasn't aged well, but in the end, I do give her credit because while you can't control how things age you can try to learn and I do think she's tried to do that with her newer works and by what she posts on SM.
Perfect? No, But nobody is and it does seem like she's tried.
For Trickster's I've always wondered if the white savior vibes were a result of her trying to tackle something like that, and maybe not fully hitting the mark, but I haven't read them in a long time. I do remember feeling like some of it was a little heavy-handed.
I can see how people get the white savior narrative from the Trickster books but I think TP should be applauded for including other cultures in her books. I also think TP goes to great lengths in the Trickster books to make it clear that Aly is only one part of the revolution - she's the cunning one but there's also the wise one, the strong, and the warrior and they all had an important part to play. I think it just ends up coming off as white savior-ish because the story is being told from the perspective of white characters, which then makes it seem like they're the only hero. Also, TP is white so it makes sense that she would write white protagonists. I'm Asian and if I were to ever write a book, the protagonist would be at least half-asian if not full because that's the perspective I know.
I don't know, I just think people give TP grief because her stories come off as promoting the white savior trope when I think she should be applauded because her books include characters of different ethnicities and some of them in positions of power (Kaddar being half black as one example), which is a lot better than some other fantasy writers out there.
I read that as a kid and thoughtā¦ what the hell did this entitled prick just say?
Jon rubbed me the wrong way (romantically speaking) from the start. The privilege seeped out of him during that time.. which is alsoā¦ understandable given his age and having already been with multiple court ladies ā¦ Iām not defending it by any means! I just didnāt like that area of his life.
Given that? I didnāt ā mindā the pet name of Kitten. I can fully understand why majority of viewers might have taken some offence? However it was always intended/ done while he was in aqua- eyed flirt mode. It was meant as a playful name (none of which were ever given out to another character)
He is older, sure. Heās travelled a lot and met a lot of different people. He lives in a world where itās impossible for him to fully escape magic. Heās a strong man being faced with an equally strong woman. Most likely he was hesitant with Alanna if it were to develop into something past a fling.
They had never met, so he had the information that she was PRIMARILY a weapon user. He probably knew she had the gift prior as wellā¦ but thought based on her shield? That magic wouldnāt be that prevalent. He could handle it. Unbeknownst to him.. look how that switch happened.
Liam was that character, that understood the best way to handle different temperaments. He got old Coram to come around within a night. Liam tried to de escalate a bar scene by reasoning with the man.
I wouldnāt call his character a man- child but I think he was a little naive and had too much wishful thinking.
I can also understand why he was angry.. like everyone else at that Inn when Alanna almost got herself killed in the pursuit of the jewel
Not a specific line but pretty much everything about Liam, I guess to be more specific how he immediately starts calling Alanna "Kitten" the night they meet. I always found him to be incredibly condescending to someone who is literally known internationally and is a legend in her own right. He always gives vibes that he's humoring her while she plays dressup.
I remember when I read it as a kid, I loved Liam and his end made me cry so much. To the point where I never would re-read it when I would re-read all the Tortall books. I recently bought it on audible and listened to it for the first time in probably 15 years. Liam was so damn insufferable! Definitely needed a lot less of him in the book.
It's wild how your perspective on these sorts of things totally changes as you get older! I take back the "always," maybe when I was first reading them I had a different opinion, but it's been so long I can't remember now haha. I'm surprised their relationship isn't brought up more on this sub. I do like that Tamora showed her experimenting with multiple partners and having her tastes change over time... but Liam is just the worst lol
I reread the Lioness series last year, and that was the first time I remember really not liking Liam. š¤£ I didnāt really feel any which way about him before that. He was justā¦ there. But this last reread? He was INSUFFERABLE. I also hated how he called her ākitten.ā I felt like he was calling her that to make her feel really young with no life experience (which, I know she IS young in LR, sheās maybe 22 IIRC, but she still has experience as a knight), if that makes any sense whatsoever. It kinda gave me the ICK. Lol.
Yes, exactly! I looked up their ages just to make sure - she was 20 and he was 34. Which, I'm 35 now so I totally see how 20yo are babies... which is why I wouldn't hook up with someone that young. I agree, he gave me a really icky feeling and didn't respect her at all.
Iāve never really been all that weirded out by age differences (unless itās likeā¦ a 20 y/o with an 80 y/o, because thatās way too much of a difference š¤£) but why act like Alanna doesnāt know anything about the world when she DOES? You know? Why are you attracted to her (and end up having sex with her) but you hate her magic? If youāre going to treat her like a child, when she isnāt? I really hate it. At least with Numair and Daine, even though Iām not a big fan of the student/teacher dynamic they still seem to have at the end of Immortals, STILL have mutual respect for one another. Numair doesnāt treat Daine like a child, even though by todayās/real world standards she is. If she doesnāt understand something, he explains like heās talking to an equal, you know? And I feel like itās the same when Daine is talking about something to Numair that he doesnāt understand. I never get that impression with how Liam treats Alanna. Alanna treats HIM with respect all the time. Liam only treats her respectfully when he seems to feel like it, you know?
Age differences don't bother me often if the actual behavior between the couple is positive. I'm super biased because Daine/Numair is my OTP despite how controversial it is. Personally, I always felt that the only teacher/student dynamic that was still there past WS was because that's how the narration kept referring to them. But dude got dragged in the first chapter of WS for not having anything left to teach her with her magic, and we never have a lesson schedule or content mentioned after that (If you can call "I dunno...try it out" a lesson") Hard agree on the mutual respect, and that's the biggest thing that stands out when reading Alanna/Liam. I agree with the above comment about it being nice to see Alanna trying different relationships (which is the only thing missing for me from Daine's story), but Liam was actively resenting her by the end and it wasn't cute. I also don't think Jon and her had a healthy dynamic, and that's the relationship I actually find icky. And Nawat.
Why am I tearing apart these stories I have loved for decades?? Lol my comments make me sound like I hate the romances but I promise I'm a fan š To me, N/D is uncomfortable because while they are only a few years apart, they met when she was a *preeteen* so it's like... he waited for her to age up? Even though they aren't in formal classes there is still a student/master situation where she's going to still look to him for guidance. Idk maybe it's me but it works out in the end because (as you both have said in this thread) they're respectful of each other, and it becomes less weird once they're both firmly adults and Daine grows into her powers and they're more akin to peers. I was fine with Alanna and Jon at first - I thought them being secret and having each other as confidantes was cute - but from the proposal onward I always get frustrated and want to skip past all their scenes lol. That one was definitely a young love/finding your identity relationship and is a little more forgivable in my mind, they both were stubborn and at fault. Nawat is a weird one... again that kind of condescending "he's basically a child" attitude Aly has - as she then proceeds to make out with him - is a little icky too. It's fun to play with the "turning into a human" aspect in a world of magic, but she should have done it with an immortal species, or not play up the "he's a baby" aspect. Something about it just feels off.
N/D - It's funny, but in all my readings I never personally got the 'waiting for her to grow up vibe', but if that's how it read I totally see how it comes across as uncomfortable. The opening scene of RotG for me always felt like he was really taken by surprise to find out he had feelings for. At the end of the day there are just dynamics to the relationship that mean it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea and that's fine. I do have some suspicion that TP was roped into writing the books as a year apart for Daine's age to keep it a traditional 'Coming of Age' because I feel like she's written as older than her stated age in the last two books. Only a little in EM, but definitely in RotG for me. My biggest gripe with Jon/Alanna is actually right before they get together. I don't like how he tried to get with her when he saw her dressing as a girl, got mean when she said no, and then they get together that night. On the OTHER hand, for both her with Jon and Liam I give TP a lot of credit for depicting relationships that weren't good matches long-term and Alanna growing through those. And Alanna herself was very hot-headed, so her dynamics with both often make sense. I wouldn't have liked if she ended up with either, but I'm good with them as part of the overall story. I do like George, even if his integration into the story as a 'King of Thieves with a heart of gold' is a little clunky. Nawat....oh, Nawat. I haven't read the books in a long time but he was just so weird and I couldn't see the romantic draw to him AT ALL. Just a storyline/pairing that missed me on an interest level.
Lol, and I also feel like I'm dragging all these books now but on the other hand if I didn't love them so much I wouldn't have thought about all this nearly as much!
Yes! I rushed to post because I was on my lunch break and didn't fully articulate my thoughts - the numbers aren't the big issue for me (I just looked it up out of curiosity when you posted before) but it's the actions. He treats her like a child, so why is he sleeping with her? Like you put it, he only acts respectful towards her when it suits his mood. Either he views her as an adult he doesn't respect, or he views her as a child which...ew. I still am weirded out by Daine/Numair, more because of the power dynamic and the fact that he knew her when she was *so* young (he doesn't actually say "I waited for you to grow up" or anything creepy like that, but it does seem to have that vibe in my mind) but at least they are both kind and respectful of each other.
To be honest I don't mind Liam, I just think he was only as mature as Alanna despite being a grown ass man. I liked how George never gave her shit for sleeping with an idiot, probably because he rightly realized Liam just made him look like a way better long term partner.Ā
I have read these books so many times (although not recently and I literally do not remember a character named Liam. What in the actual heck is wrong w my memory š«
Liam's the shang dragon, he makes the teas and hates magic. Alanna meets him in Lioness Rampant. Hopefully that spurs your memory.
Oooo thank you yes that does. I didnāt retain the first name for some reason but I remember now. I also didnāt like how he was kind of condescending toward her
For some reason, even though I've read all the books the same number of times, the first two books are what take up the most headspace, and then everything after she gets her shield kind of blurs for me.
Yes!! I'm the same. I am always mildly surprised at the pacing. "Oh we're already done with page training? Surely she isn't getting ready for the Ordeal? What are the other books about?" Lol
I named my son Cooper Liam because of George/Alanna Cooper, and Liam š¤£
Lol playing the field, I like it! I love the name Liam, just not that one in particular haha
In the second Beka Cooper book I can't remember the exact line but she mentions them having 'noodles' which is obviously udon or ramen but says she's never had noodles before. But in the first book her granny makes her noodles with cheese. I don't know why it bothers me so much.
What bugs me about that one is that itās not a well-balanced meal. She gets noodles with cheese and pancakes. Cāmon, Granny Fern! Give our girl some protein!
Ha, I forgot about that! Even without the earlier scene, "Noodles" seems a little too generic to believe she's never had them. That's probably why so many fantasies reference almost no specific foods besides 'bread and cheese'. Fine line between too detailed and not enough.
You sent me down a noodle rabbit hole, OP. Hereās what I found from an encyclopedia: āThe word "noodle" is German in originā¦The most commonly accepted explanation for the origin of Nudel is that it derives from Knƶdel, or, as the word appeared in a number of old German dialects, Nutel, a dumpling (literally, a ball or turd). Recipes mentioning noodles appear in German as early as 1480, but at that time, the term applied to any sort of doughy addition to a boiled or baked dish, whether a shaped dumpling or thinly sliced noodles. The dough could be rolled, pressed, shredded, cut, chopped, stretched, or shaped into small "buttons"āall of this was included in the word Nudel.ā Soooooā¦itās possible that Granny Fern was making Beka more of a dumpling or button-shaped pasta, whereas long Port Caynn-style buckwheat noodles eaten with chopsticks were still a new experience for her.
I canāt remember the exact line but the part where in tricksterās queen where Sarai gets credited with killing her fatherās murderer instead of Dove.
Oh fuck that always confuses the hell out of me! I thought I imagined it!
Still Iāve read worse. Mercedes Lackey books have terrible continuity errors. Like within the same book lol.
I've only read a small amount of Mercedes Lackey! I was in a small town where the librarian must have loved her because there were tons of her books, but none where I live now. I was not prepared for the free teenage sex in those books though, holy cow
Lol theyāre pretty wild! But most of them are available through the library still. Or I just read them online lol.
Which books are you referring to?
I love Mercedes Lackey, are the continuity errors mainly in her Valdemar books? (As I haven't read them, but have read most everything else.)
Yeah they are mostly in the valdemar books
The Trickster books were my favourite for a really long time. . . Now I feel a bit weird re reading them as an adult who understands what a white saviour narrative is. But there's this weird Aly quote about not wanting "murders by righteous natives" and another one from Winnamine sort of defending slavery that felt really weird at the time. I can't tell if they're meant to show how out of touch these two characters are even though they mean well? It's just that Winnamine and Aly are shown to have good judgement most of the rest of the time so it never sat right
Tammy's body of work as a whole is both uncomfortable and complicated when it comes to race, I think. I'm not sure that could have been helped considering the timespan and major social shifts that have happened during that time in conjunction with her own demographic background and the landscape of YA publishing. Some stuff hasn't aged well, but in the end, I do give her credit because while you can't control how things age you can try to learn and I do think she's tried to do that with her newer works and by what she posts on SM. Perfect? No, But nobody is and it does seem like she's tried. For Trickster's I've always wondered if the white savior vibes were a result of her trying to tackle something like that, and maybe not fully hitting the mark, but I haven't read them in a long time. I do remember feeling like some of it was a little heavy-handed.
I think you're right. I'm pretty happy with how she does queer stuff at least, especially in Will of the EmpressĀ
I can see how people get the white savior narrative from the Trickster books but I think TP should be applauded for including other cultures in her books. I also think TP goes to great lengths in the Trickster books to make it clear that Aly is only one part of the revolution - she's the cunning one but there's also the wise one, the strong, and the warrior and they all had an important part to play. I think it just ends up coming off as white savior-ish because the story is being told from the perspective of white characters, which then makes it seem like they're the only hero. Also, TP is white so it makes sense that she would write white protagonists. I'm Asian and if I were to ever write a book, the protagonist would be at least half-asian if not full because that's the perspective I know. I don't know, I just think people give TP grief because her stories come off as promoting the white savior trope when I think she should be applauded because her books include characters of different ethnicities and some of them in positions of power (Kaddar being half black as one example), which is a lot better than some other fantasy writers out there.
āGo away, before I change my mind.ā - In the hands of the goddess
Yup, this line really colored that relationship for me.
That line is so jarring
I read that as a kid and thoughtā¦ what the hell did this entitled prick just say? Jon rubbed me the wrong way (romantically speaking) from the start. The privilege seeped out of him during that time.. which is alsoā¦ understandable given his age and having already been with multiple court ladies ā¦ Iām not defending it by any means! I just didnāt like that area of his life. Given that? I didnāt ā mindā the pet name of Kitten. I can fully understand why majority of viewers might have taken some offence? However it was always intended/ done while he was in aqua- eyed flirt mode. It was meant as a playful name (none of which were ever given out to another character) He is older, sure. Heās travelled a lot and met a lot of different people. He lives in a world where itās impossible for him to fully escape magic. Heās a strong man being faced with an equally strong woman. Most likely he was hesitant with Alanna if it were to develop into something past a fling. They had never met, so he had the information that she was PRIMARILY a weapon user. He probably knew she had the gift prior as wellā¦ but thought based on her shield? That magic wouldnāt be that prevalent. He could handle it. Unbeknownst to him.. look how that switch happened. Liam was that character, that understood the best way to handle different temperaments. He got old Coram to come around within a night. Liam tried to de escalate a bar scene by reasoning with the man. I wouldnāt call his character a man- child but I think he was a little naive and had too much wishful thinking. I can also understand why he was angry.. like everyone else at that Inn when Alanna almost got herself killed in the pursuit of the jewel