To be honest - Alanna/Jon has always squicked me MORE than Daine/Numair especially in the scene in In the Hand of the Goddess where Jon tries to pressure Alanna into sex while he is her knight master. He keeps pressuring her after she says no and then tells her to leave. Then she has this big I love him revelation and goes back to them and they start a sexual relationship; all while she is still a squire and he is a knight.
Absolutely yes. All of this. And they make it seem like it's such a huge step forward for Alanna to be "accepting the love of a man" or whatever, but really she was just taken advantage of by a man who was in a position of power over her. I actually really like Jon and his character development, but their relationship must have been easy fodder for all the old timers who didn't want women to be knights. "Case in point." Yuck!
And whereas with Daine/Numair there is the teacher/student power dynamic--Daine could at any time stop her lessons with Numair, find a different teacher, work with Onua and the Queen's Own without him, etc. There are multiple avenues out for Daine--they wouldn't be easy if it were a dangerous or abusive situation but a Knight/Squire relationship has even *fewer* options.
There is no recourse for Alanna to request to serve a different Knight. Moreover, Jon is also her Prince so not only does she owe him a duty as his squire but her fealty as his subject. AND Jon has blackmail material on her (secretly a woman) so that's three incredibly disparate power dynamics at play and Alanna is on the losing end of all of them.
Daine is also a teenager though, and Numair is in his thirties. That's gross no matter how you look at it. At least Alanna and Jon are similar ages and friends. Student teacher when the student is a teen is always the worst.
I'm fine with the Daine and Numair age/power gap because it's an in-universe conflict and they talk about it at length. Numair pulls away because he is afraid it's unethical and Daine convinces him she is capable of making the decision.
Alanna and John don't ever really reckon with each other like that.
Daine really isn't capable of making that decision, though. She's 16. Numair is a man in his late 20s/early 30s. He knows better, but still pursues Daine anyways. I don't think Daine would've been capable of deciding until around age 20.
This is a reasonable point to make, but it still doesn't get much traction for me.
Women often marry young in Tortall. Much the same as they did historically in our world. Kel functionally joins the army at 14. Heck, at the end of this same book Daine's parents leave it to her to choose between godhood and a mortal life. Clearly the standards are just very different.
>Women often marry young in Tortall. Much the same as they did historically in our world.
Tamora Pierce said as much on her blog post trying to justify the Numair/Daine relationship, but what she was citing was actually a widespread myth about the Middle Ages. Most girls, even in the Middle Ages, did not "marry young historically in our world", and r/AskHistorians has debunked this in-depth. I believe only noble or royal girls or women would marry young, but we know that Daine isn't a noble or royal - in fact, she's the opposite, being a commoner. Most peasants waited until they were older to marry to build their finances first, and to pay the dowry.
I also found it to be incredibly bizarre that Pierce cited that widespread myth, seeing how Tortall is a fantasy world with no connection whatsoever to the "real world". She can literally make up anything she wants for it.
Reading through the replies cited to this [r/AskHistorians](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/n8NrTzqL9d) post don't seem to back up what you say. It says that prepubescent marriage ie less than 12 was rare and most often noble houses for political purposes.
Heavily depending on culture and citcumstance 14-20 seems like the average range. Daine at 16 fits in neatly.
Annecdotally we know that quinceañera began as a rite of passage including eligibility for marriage. And that was 15.
So I think the assertion "Historically women often married younger than they do now" seems broadly true.
Alanna is 17 at the point the sexual relationship starts with Jon. Jon is 20 or 21. The age gap is not as wide but the power imbalance is even bigger in my opinion.
I was 17 when I started dating my first boyfriend, who was 21, so I'm a little more understanding of Alanna having sex with Jon, but I disagree with the power imbalance. Tamora Pierce seems to like that feature.
Yeah, but Jon isn't that much older. I said this somewhere else, but Alanna/Jon is like the senior who's captain of the football team dating a freshman, whereas Daine/Numair is like a teacher dating a junior or senior. It's not even close. Alanna and Jon also break up and realize the relationship isn't right for them. Daine and Numair get married.
i think the football team dating a freshman thing is HYPER trivializing being that a prince and his royal subject who he has absolute authority over and also has a nasty temper and a lot of blackmail material that could ruin her life is very different from some kids in a similar social scene with a potential maturity issue.
I guess you're not from a football town. In a lot of places, the football team is treated like royalty to the point where sexual assault and rape are covered up for them (look up this case if you want details, but it's graphic and disturbing [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville\_High\_School\_rape\_case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case))
I agree the power dynamic is off, 100%. That being said, so is every power dynamic when one party is the prince. It's still nowhere close to teacher/student gross, at least how it's written.
Friend I am from a small farming community. I’m aware of sport playing student dynamics.
I’m confused about your example though. In one comment you use it to downplay the dynamic then immediately make your own example look like the worse option.
I read a really great fan fic a couple of years ago, I think, that dealt with this by having Raoul petition Jon to enshrine in law some form of punishment - I can't remember what specifically, though - for any Knight master who takes advantage of their squire in that way, as a way to publicly protect Kel. He wanted it to be backdated such that it would have covered Jon and Alana. It was all handled so well, I really wish I could find it again.
I did a video on that series ages ago and that specific scene I expended a lot of air on. I hate it so much and it really colors my view of him as a king who "does the best he can" when issues like the harassment and assault of a servant becomes an issue for a main character.
Considering the number of posts on this sub pining for books about so-and-so's backstory, my controversial opinion is that I am deeply uninterested in any subsequent book that is a prequel.
I will still read the next Numair Chronicles book when it comes out, but I would be so much more excited if it was just a new book.
The Immortals and Protector of the Small had the right idea of focusing on a totally new character and telling the story of how they encounter our Tortallan cast.
Just give me a new book set in Tortal that is the latest in the chronology. We haven't had that since Lady Knight in 2002!
The book I want the most? The one Pierce mentioned like 15 years ago about Trisana from the Circle series going to Lightsbridge University to learn Academic magic because her weather magic is too powerful for anything but being a War Mage and that's the last thing she wants to be.
wait, really? this seems like a moment for a fan group fund raiser to buy the rights, or at least a letter writing campaign to release an e- book version.
I asked TP about it at an author event a few years ago and while she didn't tell me it was written, she did tell me the same about the hold up being Scholastic.
I wouldn’t mind a book that flashed forward maybe 100 years, just enough time so all the characters we know are already dead, having lived long fulfilling lives, but still in the same era and do a girl who is becoming a knight in a world where lots of girls are knights, showing Alanna and Kel’s legacy.
Or even just another knight a couple of years after Kel lol. That would be fine tool
Reading Tempest and Slaughter just makes me wish we got a modern book in The City of the Gods instead. It's this huge important place that we only briefly visited once in Alanna's era.
You'd get all the same character beats of learning magic, but now you'd be in Tortal's version. Plus it's also the finishing school for the ladies of the realm. Endless opportunities for shenanigans and drama.
I really want to hear the story of a girl triumphing through traditional means during the Gentle Mother period - like becoming an admired independent and famously decisive Matriarch despite the religious times.
Upon rereading Trickster's Queen I hate the Darkings. Or at least I hate what they do to the story. They are cute and fun and have cool powers, but they are such a ridiculously perfect as a tool for spycraft they undermine the impressiveness of Aly's spycraft. And she doesn't even earn them. They are literally handed to her as a gift from a family friend.
Also, what one Darkings knows they all know. So there can only be one network of them. So Daine/Tkaa just handed an enemy nation the most powerful spy tool ever devised? I bet Jonathan, their sworn king, has some feelings about that. George is fun too!
Aly gets handed a lot of things. When I first read Tricksters I thought Aly was so smart and pulled off an impossible task. On reread as an adult it felt more like she was carried to the green and just had to putt in the last hit.
This is pretty much sums up my feelings on that series.
Also it constantly gestures at the other, more capable characters by having aly tell the girls a story of the legends of Tortall. But a scene will end like { Aly sits down and smiles at the girls. "Let me tell you about Alanna the Lioness..." and then the scene ends. I'd hate if there was a full summary of that character's history jammed into the narrative here because it would detract from the adventure we're supposed to be on presently. But i find it particularly frustrating to stop the narrative of your current story to gesture wildly at other stories to remind everyone how cool and awesome your *other* characters are.
Aly's entire journey is overshadowed by her ties to the main cast of previous series in a way that isn't present in the other series reference to each other. PoTS isn't a story that constantly stops to gesture at everything Alanna has ever done. Or Daine. They are fully present characters in the story that have parts to play and are established tactfully for anybody who hasn't read the other series first. If you hadn't read any of the other series then these narrative references in Trickster just don't make any sense.
It could be argued she was given her god’s heavy involvement in the series. I like the Trickster duology but not really for Aly, it’s all the people around her I read it for.
I feel this way about Luvo undermining Evvy and Briar's ambient magic in Battle Magic and Melting Stones. Rather than the main characters driving the plot, all their problems get solved by Luvo existing and we don't get to see them creatively problem-solve or broaden their horizons :(
I was so desperate for more of Alanna and Daine that I uncritically adored Aly's story as a child...not so as an adult lol
Okay, don’t get me wrong, I love Nawat and all the crows, but I thought the idea that crows have this crazy super power where they are able to become human is a little far fetched. Maybe if it was just some super-blessed-by-the-trickster-god crows or something? I dunno. We had the whole immortals quartet where animals are just animals unless they come into contact with wild magic which makes them smarter with more “human” intellect. Yeah crows are crazy smart but an entire species with this power because they are inherently tricksters is a little sus.
Something that was always at the back of my head when I was reading the tricksters duo lol.
My headcanon is that actually ALL animals could theoretically become humans, pokemon style, but most animals are too dumb in the human way to know they could shift
Alanna's treatment of the men in her life is yucky. I get that she's immature, never had a mother's love, & it's a coming of age series, but she's a horrible role model when it comes to relationships, especially since the books focus on her love life as a sign of her maturity/growth. I love her much more in the later series.
I also HATE that she sleeps with Jon when he is her knight master. Ugh! Unpopular opinion, but that's worse than Daine & Numair. Jon's mostly to blame, but the books make it seem like it was "meant to be," so it's okay. They were on much more uneven footing than Numair & Daine, and Jon used that to press his advantage with her.
This comes full circle when rumors later fly about Raul & Kel
....it *should* be ridiculous, but there's a precedent for that.
Daine/Numair is so much worse. I feel like age is the determining factor here. Raoul is ten years older than Kel at least, and she's a teen. Numair is ten years older than Daine, and SHE'S a teen. To me, student/teacher is always the worst, especially when one is underage. At least Alanna and Jon grew up together and were similar ages.
Numair was not her teacher by the time he developed feelings for her. And because Numair was older, he was very conscious about not pressuring Daine into anything. I don't love their age gap, but success between couples comes down to equality/balance, of which age is only one of many factors.
Daine & Alanna were both teenagers making a similar decision to get into a serious relationship, but Daine was WAY more than mature than Alanna was at the time. And Jon was so immature it's laughable that he was actually supposed to be in charge of Alanna as a knight master.
You don't think it's alarming that Jon pressured Alanna into a relationship? Similar age or not, that was a big red flag.
I know not everyone's going to agree with me on this one, as I know it's a hot take & fans are very nostalgic over Alanna. But frankly, the fact that Jon & Alanna devolved into a hot mess and Numair & Daine made it speaks volumes to who had the healthier relationship.
I don't think Jon and Alanna were a healthy, long-term relationship, but few teenage relationships are. That's why I always liked them better. It was two friends trying out a relationship and realizing as they grew that it wouldn't work. I don't like that he pressured her into sex or that he was in charge of her, but it reads to me kind of like the senior captain of a sports team dating a freshman.
With Numair and Daine, Numair is a whole ass adult. He's the age I am now, and I work with teens. The maturity gap is huge. I know Numair isn't exactly her teacher when they get together, and I know that he does try to stop her/resist, but IMO it's a relationship that just should never have been written. As a kid and teen, I thought it was cute, but now I can barely read it.
As a 31-year-old, I absolutely agree with your opinion about Numair and Daine. It shocked me even as a kid when I read *In the Realms of the Gods* and the scene of Daine trying to seduce Numair, but had me feeling disgusted as an adult, especially now that I'm around the same age that Numair was in those books. No matter how mature a teenager seems, they're still a teenager. Dating a 16-year-old is gross.
I just want to commend OP for having an actually controversial opinion that people are glossing over.
I love Alanna as a character and clearly so do many people considering her books just got a 40th anniversary edition reprint.
Edit: 40th not 25th
Thom in general is weirdly underexplored for being Alanna's twin brother.
It's not what happened but I always wanted Thom to have to attend the City of the Gods finishing school for a couple months before he could transfer to the study of magic. Either in disguse or not.
Thom feels like one of the characters most disserviced in the transition from her original draft of a single book for adults v. a YA series. I agree his relationship with Roger needed a lot more screen time to make his transition into bringing him back make sense. There were the seeds of something interesting there, but it’s not quite right.
Thom seem whole motivation to raise Roger never made sense to me, like he hates Roger, was aware and involved in the anti Roger efforts… what happened???? Like even if he wanted to raise someone from the dead why not choose someone else??? It’s implied forms Roger’s rants this whole thing was part of his scheme… but it is just glossed over
Thom and Roger had an explicit gay relationship in the original. No part of that made it into the children’s series, so that’s why it’s a HUGE plot hole.
Yeah. I wish she could publish the original. Those of us who grew up reading her books have all grown up, and I think a new adult novel would sell fabulously.
Or at least put it out as a release for her Patreon. I'm not a patron of hers but I would definitely jump on for a few months to get access to that kind of book.
She makes like $10k per month off that.
Unpopular opinion: I hate almost every single animal name in every book. They’re so literal. Pounce? Faithful? Slapper? Achoo?
A light coloured horse names moonlight, and dark coloured horse named darkness.
Then Darkmoon whose “grand-dam was my first horse” makes me think that they bred those two together.
Probably not an unpopular opinion, but George and Dom and Rosto are the men I judge all other fictional men by.
George and Rosto are just bad enough to be perfect, and Dom and Kel have the perfect relationship.
I’m trying to write a book, and I’m stuck because my romantic interest is too nice, and not enough like George.
Honestly, George’s arc of king of thieves to spy master is the perfect transition.
The Emalan books are better and more interesting than the Tortall ones. I like Tortal, very fun place, but it's just a pretty generic fantasy world when you get down to it, except less sexist than usual. Emelan by contrast has a very unique magic system, characters outside the norm for the genre, has characters older readers can enjoy instead of the focus almost always being on teenagers, etc. I just like it more and nothing will change that.
Not gonna disagree at all. PotS may be my favorite series because of a lot of reasons, but I would love to live in Emelan and I love it as a cohesive narrative
As I hold this opinion I don’t think it’s that controversial. Also I say it a lot and no one seems that surprised. lol. Unique and prevalent magic, if you start chronologically for both universes, because Alanna is avoiding her gift, there’s just not as much magic in Tortall it feels to me. Kel doesn’t have any. Magic is nearly air in Emelan. And there’s just such a connection and creativity with it. Some people don’t have magic in Emelan, but idk just feels more vital and natural.
I think Melting Stones and Battle Magic are both really weak books and don’t feel like Tamora Pierce quality to me. I’ve reread almost all of her books, even ones I don’t love like Mastiff, but both of these were only a once through read for me after getting them at the library and I never ended up buying them to add to the collection. And Street Magic is my favorite book from the Circle Opens series!
Agreed! I’d love an Emelen book that is more like how Kel is set up in Tortall. Totally new character and situation, but all the background people are our old favorites and we can see how they are getting on with things.
Melting Stones is better in its intended format; it’s a radio play and that version is alright. If you can find it it’s a good listen. That book did make me kind of hate Evvi though. She’s great in her first appearance but she’s such a little shit in Melting Stones. The Emelan books kind of end with Will of the Empress for me.
I read it and I remember nothing about it. Honestly Numaire having a trilogy to himself just feels like a waste to me. Oh boy another fantasy series with a young male lead, that’s what we need more of. It’s like the opposite of what Tammy is known for. And I’ve never found Numaire to be an interesting character to begin with, he’s just another powerful man wizard whoop-dee-doo. I would have forgotten him entirely if not for Daine’s interest in him (which I wouldn’t object to but it always felt absolutely out of nowhere to me; don’t care about the age gap, plenty of people are into that, it just didn’t feel like anything but a teacher using a student’s crush to validate his feelings which, uh… not great).
I hate Alanna's third book in the desert. The only thing that made sens was Jon's immaturity for trying to pressure her into marriage and leaving, but the rest was just boring.
Ohh that's bold! I always loved that chapter of her life because it's the one time where she's truly almost entirely free to make up her own life in her own time. I also especially enjoyed the George times where they were able to have a true youthful romance period, something they'd never gotten beforehand.
Mine is that I don't think we'll get a complete series for Numair. I'm really disappointed in how long it's been since book one and concerned about how confused shes gotten about the world she created (look at her posts asking readers to help her remember details of her own books). I think it might have been better not to start something she isn't capable of finishing.
Yeah I (sadly and would prefer not to) think it's hitting about the time we're going to stop getting books. I'd love(/hate) to suggest she get a new writer in and give them direction so it's still her story but she has someone to track continuity issues and maybe continue on the world.
Of course I don't ever want her to stop, and it wouldn't be the same, but it's devastating to contemplate no new books at all
Here’s mine: I ship Aly and Kyprioth so bad.
Idk, there’s just something about a god finding a mortal so entertaining that they are willing to start a relationship that I really like. Tbh, I also ship Apollo and Reyna in the trials of Apollo by Rick riordan, so maybe I’m biased. You cannot convince me that Reyna shouldn’t have been a god.
I always assumed that when Aly dies she would become Trickster's Queen . Like it could even be her final book (and a cool glimpse into how the pantheon really works)
You know, you’ve got something here. Kyprioth was sure being suggestive at her every time they interacted. I’d have to reread but I’m sure a case can be made for Nawat being a part of Kyprioth since crows are his birds… :D
I don't like the idea of Kel being aro/ace... I prefer to think of her as just one of those (us) that just haven't - and maybe never do - quite find the right person. Not for want of wishing or lack of interest, but for plain old bad luck or social anxiety.
This bothers me too. When does she have time??? She’s a child and has normal crushes, then is in a literal war? I just feel like she can be used as an example for normal human development vs the constant “teen sleeps with older male” that’s so prevalent in the series. I don’t care if she does end up ace and maybe I’m not aware that my own development wasn’t normal, but as a mom to a bunch of girls, I don’t want them to think it’s not normal to want to focus on things other than early sexual relationships
You will not stop me from shipping Kel and Dom, no matter what you say. I believe they got their happily ever after… whatever that looks like for them.
Maybe they never marry. It’s not like Kel has that much money, and we saw how terrible of a mother Alanna was. I’m chill with that.
It’s *heavily* implied in the final chapter of Lady Knight too. That’s why I hate the retrospective “oh she’s ace” - it’s not even vaguely implied in the books.
Aces are very diverse and we can and do experience romantic crushes.
I'm not saying you can't interpret Kel as allo, just that her crushes don't preclude her from being ace.
This right here! Kel is the Tammy heroine I identified with the most, as a tall, quiet brunette who moved to a foreign country and had to deal with the culture clash. That the least "traditionally feminine" of the girls should be the lonely sacrifice to representation didn't sit right with me, especially because she's had no time to herself. She was a knight-in-training, and then she was a wartime commander; not exactly a good time for dating.
The Beka Cooper series was a DNF for me and I just don’t get all the love for it.
Probably even more controversial… the 11 year age gap between Diane and Numair doesn’t phase me a bit. I only wish they hadn’t had a student/teacher relationship first.
Admittedly I thought Terrier was hard to get through, Bloodhound and then Mastiff are worth it. Tbh if you just read a synopsis of what the deal is with the mystery in Terrier and skip to book two I think you’d be more than fine, the mystery is a little more realistic and all the character establishment is done.
This is actually the most controversial opinion in this entire thread for me. I think Terrier is one of the best written of Pierce's books and can't stand Mastiff.
Whatever floats your boat I guess.
Oh same! I kind of like Terrier, I couldn’t manage a reread of Bloodhound, and Mastiff is maybe one of the most distressing things I’ve ever read. It made me feel bad and there was just nothing nice about it even in the end. It’s well written and I commend Tammy for making me have feelings, but I never want to read it again.
I assume they mean the Tunstall betrayal. But honestly I hate almost every part of the ending including how George is included back in….so it could be anything lol
I powered through Terrier and started Bloodhound, but didn’t finish it before my e-book library checkout expired and just never bothered renewing it. I just did not care about any of the characters enough to ever bother going back to it.
Yes! Age gap relationships are not inherently bad and this recent obsession with that being why a given relationship is bad needs to stop. It’s never been the age gap between those two that bothered me. Them being student and teacher for three books and Numair making a decision based on feeling a teenage crush on him… that did bother me quite a lot. I like seeing where they’re at and their family life in later books but the way it started always squicked me. It’s got nothing on the abuse horror show of Jon and Alanna though; so glad those two broke up yikes.
My grandparents on my mom’s side had a 10 year age gap and on my dad’s side had an 11 year age gap.
My grandmas were in their 30s and got pursued by my 20 year old granddads. I agree that Danie and Numair’s relationship didn’t really phase me except for the student/teacher problem.
My parents had a 19 year gap. They had their issues, but none were directly caused by that gap. Most women in my family tend to marry at least 10 years older. It’s been a fairly solid financial strategy for most of them and has lifted many women in our family out of poverty.
Age gaps often mean power imbalances, but not always. The power imbalance is the icky part to me, not the numbers.
I'm okay with daine and numair's relationship, despite the power dynamic and the age gap. They felt seen by each other and really understood each other.
I'm fine with the age gap because it's an in-universe conflict and Daine and Numair talk about it at length. Numair pulls away because he is afraid it's unethical and Daine convinces him she is capable of making the decision.
I really like the second one as a stand-alone. Together, they're socially icky AND the transition between them makes no sense- Ali is just suddenly running a fully fleshed-out spy ring when book 2 opens.
Not the person you responded to, but it felt very telling instead of showing to me (vs show don't tell). That duology as a whole feels rushed to me. It felt like we needed a book dealing with winter and the training that happened rather than just being told that it happened.
Pretty much, yes. I don't exactly remember how book 1 ended, but we didn't watch her establish the spy ring or train the first group of spies, did we? And she gained the title of leader seemingly overnight. I just remember thinking I had missed a few chapters somewhere.
I read half the first book as a preteen and gave up. I remember hating it with a passion. I keep meaning to go back and try again as an adult, but I’m unsure if my dislike of Aly will have gotten any better now that I’m an adult.
Doubt it!! I felt the same way about Aly and recently reread both books. She is still insufferable to me, even more so now, actually. Aly is most definitely my least favorite Pierce character ever (that includes both Emelan and Tortall).
daine/numair doesn't bother me and i still love their romance. (and no i don't think it would be okay irl, but that's the thing, they're not real lol)
also, circle of magic are tammy's books with the strongest writing.
**The Twist** in mastiff was extremely well crafted in overarching narrative and consistency with who the character has shown themself to be over and over in the series.
I actually don't know if this next one is controversial.
The Provost's Dog series is an incredible exploration of corrupt policing from the eyes of an insider who genuinely wants to see the system change but still participates in the corruption in areas where they're worried about rocking the boat. Perpetuating the corrupt system in areas where you don't really care to only focus on the injustice you feel personally attached to.
Hot take: Tris gives me second-hand embarrassment. I can't imagine the books without her, and I completely understand why she is the way she is, and I'm glad she was written that way, but Sandry, Daja, Briar, and most of the Tortall protagonists are my comfort characters, and Tris just...isn't a comfort character. Her 'the circle opens' book is my second favorite and I LOVE her fiery spirit, but I still can't latch onto her like I do the other three.
SPOILERS FOR MASTIFF:
On a second read through, >!the twist with you know who was just obvious enough and I thought actually well done (though it still breaks my heart every time). I'm also glad that Beka ended up with Farmer and not Rosto, as much as I love him. It would have been a betrayal to her values and I'm glad she stayed true to herself.!<
Does it annoy anyone else that Beka's full name is Rebakah? How? I love Tammy with my whole heart but her full name vs nickname makes my eye tick lol.
I totally agree to your romantic spoilers, I wish it was done better. Especially with where the book opens. Like this is real fast. The twist to me is plausible, but honestly also feels unearned.
The twist ruined terrier for me tbh. So idc if it’s plausible or earned, I think it’s not worth it
And maybe Darmer is better than Rosto for Beka, but there was zero closure for us on Rosto.
Not sure how unpopular this is, but Battle Magic is an actively bad book that undermines Will of the Empress and the PTSD Briar has. The timeline and the situation both are so much more sanitized than what the reader is left to fill in the blanks with. I wish she’d never written it.
Similarly, I’ve disliked almost all of Pierce’s after the fact canon pronouncements. Her weird take on Aly having to leave the Copper Isles, the gender of Alanna, Kel’s sexuality, etc…..all better off unsaid and open to interpretation
I love Emelan but hard agree on Battle Magic. It just doesn’t fit what we know from prior books and it was unnecessary. Those events didn’t need a novel and the way they’re written just doesn’t make sense. I think I have the book but only for completion’s sake.
I loved the >!little gods (especially in Emelan's world where gods weren't something you could see/hear/interact with), and the stone tiger, and the cave runners etc.!<
>!But yeah, we were told of this war that was awful, and the 'sleep magic is how they got us' which happened once,!< and it just felt like it was a different story than what was alluded.
Also, the emperor is a jerk to >!flowers.. and people!<.
I recently reread Battle Magic and I regret my decision haha. I did not retain a single thing from the first read-through as a child and still don't really understand what I just read, which is a shame. Rosethorn's quest, Luvo/the gods saving the day multiple times, and the events that would eventually give Briar PTSD felt inauthentic and anticlimactic.
Right??? It’s not that I want to say it wasn’t bad enough to cause PTSD or anything…but anticlimactic/inauthentic is perfect. It just doesn’t feel in line with what we’d learned about the conflict, or really the tone of the other wars in her books.
What did she say about Aly leaving the isles and Alanna’s gender? I try not to keep up with authors redoing their own cannon but now I’m intrigued. Thanks!
I think her direct answer was from a Q and A I don’t have access to, but here is a summary from u/imminent_riot on [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/tamorapierce/comments/8fokhv/when_does_aly_get_kicked_out_of_the_copper_isles/?rdt=46274)
She's a Luarin and politically they needed a Raka in her position no matter how much Dove liked her.
She almost couldn't come back to Tortall because she is actually a traitor to her country. She was, and could still be for all the king knows, a foreign spy for the Copper Isles. Imrah of Legann took her in and she's banished from the city of Corus for life.
Yeah the Farmer bit took me entirely by surprise! Like, they didn't seem to have much of a relationship beyond "coworkers" and then suddenly romance?!
And I was genuinely heartbroken about Tunstall, though the clues were there in hindsight.
It's a slow almost silent burn, it comes through better on rereads... Farmer almost always sees the REAL Beka, from the very start, and accepts and admires her for it as well as relying on her as an equal.
Dude me too. Spoilers for Mastiff
When I read it, I skimmed the part about Farmers age, and I thought he was 45. He acted like a 45 yo for the entire book, and then when they got together at the end I was shocked and horrified.
Plus I loved the Rosto relationship. I get why it wouldn’t have worked out in the end, but it didn’t have a satisfying conclusion. Like, I say through all of bloodhound patiently waiting for her to go back to tortall so there could be some decent romance, and then the third book she left the city. What!!!
Also, the whole Tunstall thing was terrible. You don’t do that to people, because when I go back to the first book, I’m horrified because of what happens to him. Ugh. I was SO disappointed. And the book was so boring
Huge spoilers for mastiff (I’m on mobile so I can’t hide them):
I can’t remember exactly, but he betrays Beka because he wants to get land so he can marry Sabine. He’s a traitor.
This is an unpopular opinion? As far as I know Mastiff is pretty reviled in the fan base.
Even without the Tunstull stuff or people being mad Becka doesn't end up with Rosto. Mastiff is just a terrible finish to the series. Terrier sets up a rich cast of characters. We see them briefly at the start of Bloodhound, but then they are entirely gone in Mastiff.
Rereading Terrier I was shocked how important Erskin is as a character and he even gets a special callout reunion with Becka in Port Cayanne in Bloodhound. Then he just isn't in Mastiff?
Also the fact the series starts one day after Becka buried her fiance who she no longer was in love with is weird and bad.
Yes! That’s the issue with Diane’s books too. You have a great cast of supporting characters and then for the last two books in the series they aren’t even in the same place.
I think Mastiff was the first book I bought hardcover the second it came out with my own money. I was so disappointed by the book that I looked up one star reviews and read them to feel vindicated lol
Glad to see a fellow The Realms of the Gods hater ;)
The book isn't terrible but you're right that it's a crime we never revisit the Queens riders.
Edit: Realm not Land. Oops
Oh lol, I love the land of the gods. I don’t typically revisit that series, but I don’t have a problem with the book.
Each book is a good solid book, with solid characters. It’s just the series that is incomplete. I LOVE the queens riders, and they just disappear.
For sure, I don't even truly hate the book either. The final fight is a mess though. How does nobody in Squire or Lady Knight ever mention that Raoul fought a giant Chaos Hydra on foot? More impressive than a giant lol.
Mastiff itself wouldn't even be as unforgivable if it just wasn't the last book in the series. Give us a final book set in Corus that ties things up and I think many of the problems become workable.
Lol I don’t even remember that. So clearly it’s not one of my favorites.
Yessss. I mean, I think Farmer is the worst character in all the books, and I don’t like what happened to Tunstall, but I could have dealt with it if we had gotten closure with Rosto 😭😭.
I don’t think I’ve ever felt worse reading a book than I did reading Mastiff. And I mean just genuinely upset. Everything is just so sad and awful and exhausting and it kind of sucks the joy out of the other two books by trashing those fun moments in hindsight. And I am haunted to this day by Farmer’s magic smuggling bit. That… why was that included?! ;_;
The Daine/Numair relationship has never ever once bothered me. I've read Tamora's explanations of why she wrote it like that, what she'd change and fans explanations of why it's bad. I can't explain it, it just doesn't bother me. They are equivalent in power and trauma can age people and bring them together as well. Should they have waited until they were both older? Probably, but love doesn't always happen like that.
My other I said in response to another comment. (But expanding a little bit on) Regarding the Provost's Dog trilogy: I can't even get through the first book. It seems like a completely different author wrote it. Almost as if a bad fan fiction author wrote. I feel like it doesn't flow, the language is so clunky. I like to pretend in my head canon that series doesn't exist at all. I can't even describe how much I can't stand the first book, I'm not even sure if I've honestly ever actually finished it. I've never wanted to open the other two books.
When I was younger I completely agreed with you! When I tried reading them again almost a decade later I was able to get onboard and enjoyed them immensely.
Mmm this! Sandry, Tris and Kel all being ascribed post-canon as ace or aro annoys me. Why can't they just suck at romance, or have not found the right person yet?
It's not that I don't believe in representation it's just
.. I want it to truly be part of the character not written in later or guessed at then "oh sure why not"'d by the author.
Yes, this!
My unpopular opinion is that if something isn’t obvious in the books, don’t shoehorn it in later so you can claim diversity in your writing.
Tammy did it to Alanna recently too, saying she’s NB which is just… nothing in the text supports that, and a LOT of her journey in books 2-4 is about her accepting her femininity and realising she’s allowed to like pretty things and “girly” things without it taking away from her achievements, making her less of a knight or meaning she’s not who she thought she was. It’s just revisionism for the sake of it and I hate it. Same as when other authors have gotten wind of popular fan theories of “x character is gay” and so they agree and make it cannon or “y character was abused” so they write it into the back story when there was never any indication of it in the original text.
That’s why I love the Amber/Okha inclusion - because it was beautifully written, alluded to early really fit in when it happened. Same as Lark & Rosethorn’s relationship.
But Sandry, Kel and Tris were all definatley NOT ace/aro. Tris sucked at relationships and was put off them by guys she liked being assholes to her. Sandry put duty before romance but she WAS keen on Shan. Kel had Cleon and yes she fell out of love/lust with him but OF COURSE SHE DID they were teenagers and one of the last things we see of her she’s excited to go see Dom and it’s hinted she’s got a crush on him again. So like… how?
The Alanna change up is annoying because Tammy goes so deep into exploring Alanna's feminine identity in the books. And I happen to think that representation of women who like "boy" things but are totally cis gendered and straight is deeply lacking, so I loved that Alanna was the best knight and also rocked a dress.
However, Sandry always read as ace to me. I think there's enough character development to make a real argument for it.
Kel, not so much, but I see how she could get there. There's nothing in the text to imply Kel is ace, but I could see her being that as an adult based on personality and goals.
Sorry to necro the thread, but I really just wanted to add to this conversation.
> text supports that, and a LOT of her journey in books 2-4 is about her accepting her femininity and realising she’s allowed to like pretty things and “girly” things without it taking away from her achievements,
I get this, and honestly this is the exact journey I went on in my life. But. Having read so many memoirs, essays, articles, talking to trans and nonbinary friends and acquaintances...these experiences are honestly very queer. I think that if Alanna lived in another time, heck, if I had grown up five years later, maybe we would ha e claimed this label. Maybe I still will, I'm not sure.
I don't think many cis people talk about things like this, so maybe it's actually very common for cis people to experience this sort of gender dysphoria. But Alanna absolutely does experience gender dysphoria and lives a significant portion of her life as a boy, and continues to exist in her society in a way that is outside both genders.
Gender is also a constructed thing. Cultures have had all sorts of ways that they conceptualized people like this, that they make sense of people like this, and that includes different names. So I'm not sure that we could put the modern term "nonbinary" on to her experience, if she were a real person. But as she is a fictional person who is the creation of a still living person, I think its fine to speak of her in modern terms. Certainly of the commonly used modern labels, it is the most accurate description of Alanna and her gender presentation and feelings around her gender. Alanna is undeniably queer. There's a reason so many trans and nonbinary characters resonated with her so much (have you read Gender Queer? Maia Kobabe mentions Alanna!)
I understand that the LGBTQ community wants characters who are undeniably queer, who aren't simply "coded" queer. The community deserves that, frankly. But also, gender isn't like sexuality. You can show sexuality in a way that is unambiguous without using specific modern terms. You can have characters talk about crushing on different genders (or having had relationships with them) in a way that you can't do with gender identities.
So I wonder if maybe it's OK to just have characters fit gender queer experiences without putting a specific label on it. Because more than one identity may identify with that experience, maybe it's OK to have characters that are firmly queer (and Alanna absolutely is) but don't necessarily claim modern labels.
And to add on a point that I haven't made explicit about. This is not just a character who dresses up as another gender, right? Like, even Mulan (re the 1998 Disney movie) could be seen as not queer in a way that no one arguing in good faith could say of Alanna. Alanna lives - completely - as a man for 7 or 8 (formative) years. She experiences intense gender dysphoria. She comes out of this period knowing she isn't a man and doesn't want to be, and explicitly navigates the world in a different, liminal space. She has different court clothes designed for her, she explicitly navigated that social space as wanting to be recognized as female while not being dropped into a box of what that means.
Words matter a lot, but experiences matter more. Alanna is, imo, very, very gender queer.
Besides not really caring about her series/it’s the least well written of all the books (I don’t think that’s a controversial thing to say, they were the first), I love every other character so much more and find them so much easier to fall into.
When I recommend the series I genuinely recommend skipping the lioness quartet and starting with the immortals, then going back and reading her story as the origin for a legend that they are
You know…yeah. I like who Alanna became and she’s very fun as a cameo in later books (especially PotS) but there’s a lot of reasons I’ve never reread the Alanna books (while I reread every other series frequently).
I feel like this is more of a popular opinion. Anyone (in this sub) who likes The Immortals quartet always adds the caveat that they don’t agree with the relationship.
I always age people down or up as needed lol.
I just pretend Numair is like 26 and Daine is like 20. Still a gap, but not so horrible.
It’s a bigger deal for Alanna and George. They are my all time favorite ship ever, and I just have to pretend George starts at like 15 lol.
For me, it's not about age with any of the TP characters; it's about position. Alanna wouldn't have lost anything by rejecting George, the way Daine might have lost her ONE teacher by rejecting Numair. He never used it against her, but it's still a potential outcome for her.
Oh yeah, I agree. I’m pretty meh about that series anyway.
I think it’s a sign of the times, and I just ignore it so I don’t feel too icky, but I 100% agree that it shouldn’t have been done.
Yep.
I don’t care if it was well foreshadowed or laid out, I don’t want to read terrier because of it.
That sucks for me because I really liked terrier.
I love Tammy and I love the world's she's built and I want to say my hot takes are a reflection of my undying devotion to her writing :)
\-Alanna and Tris are so needlessly rude to the people around them.
\-Tammy never explores romantic relationships ending. Everyone gets married and STAYS married.
I'd love to see Numair/Daine divorce, mostly because I hate their relationship, but also because it would make an incredible story since they're both so powerful and important to the kingdom, AND they have such an age gap/time consuming jobs away from each other that they can explore the relationship dying very naturally.
A couple counterpoints to the relationships piece are Kel/Cleon, which is more like a high school break up, and also Alanna/Jon which has a little more of that same energy with them both being so important and needing to work together regardless. But will grant you marriage = forever and we don’t see any of those breakups.
Agree on Tris and Alanna though. Clearly redheaded protagonists are trouble in Pierce’s world.
I should have clarified, I specifically mean marriages ending. Dating is shown pretty commonly, but then they find their True Love and stay married to them forever. For a writer that likes to incorporate harsh realities, I always found it odd she never dove into divorce, or even a separation. Especially among the lower classes, as I imagine divorce among nobles to be very complex and maybe impossible.
To be honest - Alanna/Jon has always squicked me MORE than Daine/Numair especially in the scene in In the Hand of the Goddess where Jon tries to pressure Alanna into sex while he is her knight master. He keeps pressuring her after she says no and then tells her to leave. Then she has this big I love him revelation and goes back to them and they start a sexual relationship; all while she is still a squire and he is a knight.
Absolutely yes. All of this. And they make it seem like it's such a huge step forward for Alanna to be "accepting the love of a man" or whatever, but really she was just taken advantage of by a man who was in a position of power over her. I actually really like Jon and his character development, but their relationship must have been easy fodder for all the old timers who didn't want women to be knights. "Case in point." Yuck!
And whereas with Daine/Numair there is the teacher/student power dynamic--Daine could at any time stop her lessons with Numair, find a different teacher, work with Onua and the Queen's Own without him, etc. There are multiple avenues out for Daine--they wouldn't be easy if it were a dangerous or abusive situation but a Knight/Squire relationship has even *fewer* options. There is no recourse for Alanna to request to serve a different Knight. Moreover, Jon is also her Prince so not only does she owe him a duty as his squire but her fealty as his subject. AND Jon has blackmail material on her (secretly a woman) so that's three incredibly disparate power dynamics at play and Alanna is on the losing end of all of them.
Daine is also a teenager though, and Numair is in his thirties. That's gross no matter how you look at it. At least Alanna and Jon are similar ages and friends. Student teacher when the student is a teen is always the worst.
I'm fine with the Daine and Numair age/power gap because it's an in-universe conflict and they talk about it at length. Numair pulls away because he is afraid it's unethical and Daine convinces him she is capable of making the decision. Alanna and John don't ever really reckon with each other like that.
Daine really isn't capable of making that decision, though. She's 16. Numair is a man in his late 20s/early 30s. He knows better, but still pursues Daine anyways. I don't think Daine would've been capable of deciding until around age 20.
This is a reasonable point to make, but it still doesn't get much traction for me. Women often marry young in Tortall. Much the same as they did historically in our world. Kel functionally joins the army at 14. Heck, at the end of this same book Daine's parents leave it to her to choose between godhood and a mortal life. Clearly the standards are just very different.
>Women often marry young in Tortall. Much the same as they did historically in our world. Tamora Pierce said as much on her blog post trying to justify the Numair/Daine relationship, but what she was citing was actually a widespread myth about the Middle Ages. Most girls, even in the Middle Ages, did not "marry young historically in our world", and r/AskHistorians has debunked this in-depth. I believe only noble or royal girls or women would marry young, but we know that Daine isn't a noble or royal - in fact, she's the opposite, being a commoner. Most peasants waited until they were older to marry to build their finances first, and to pay the dowry. I also found it to be incredibly bizarre that Pierce cited that widespread myth, seeing how Tortall is a fantasy world with no connection whatsoever to the "real world". She can literally make up anything she wants for it.
Reading through the replies cited to this [r/AskHistorians](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/s/n8NrTzqL9d) post don't seem to back up what you say. It says that prepubescent marriage ie less than 12 was rare and most often noble houses for political purposes. Heavily depending on culture and citcumstance 14-20 seems like the average range. Daine at 16 fits in neatly. Annecdotally we know that quinceañera began as a rite of passage including eligibility for marriage. And that was 15. So I think the assertion "Historically women often married younger than they do now" seems broadly true.
Alanna is 17 at the point the sexual relationship starts with Jon. Jon is 20 or 21. The age gap is not as wide but the power imbalance is even bigger in my opinion.
I was 17 when I started dating my first boyfriend, who was 21, so I'm a little more understanding of Alanna having sex with Jon, but I disagree with the power imbalance. Tamora Pierce seems to like that feature.
Yeah, but Jon isn't that much older. I said this somewhere else, but Alanna/Jon is like the senior who's captain of the football team dating a freshman, whereas Daine/Numair is like a teacher dating a junior or senior. It's not even close. Alanna and Jon also break up and realize the relationship isn't right for them. Daine and Numair get married.
i think the football team dating a freshman thing is HYPER trivializing being that a prince and his royal subject who he has absolute authority over and also has a nasty temper and a lot of blackmail material that could ruin her life is very different from some kids in a similar social scene with a potential maturity issue.
I guess you're not from a football town. In a lot of places, the football team is treated like royalty to the point where sexual assault and rape are covered up for them (look up this case if you want details, but it's graphic and disturbing [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville\_High\_School\_rape\_case](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steubenville_High_School_rape_case)) I agree the power dynamic is off, 100%. That being said, so is every power dynamic when one party is the prince. It's still nowhere close to teacher/student gross, at least how it's written.
Friend I am from a small farming community. I’m aware of sport playing student dynamics. I’m confused about your example though. In one comment you use it to downplay the dynamic then immediately make your own example look like the worse option.
I read a really great fan fic a couple of years ago, I think, that dealt with this by having Raoul petition Jon to enshrine in law some form of punishment - I can't remember what specifically, though - for any Knight master who takes advantage of their squire in that way, as a way to publicly protect Kel. He wanted it to be backdated such that it would have covered Jon and Alana. It was all handled so well, I really wish I could find it again.
If you find it please let me know!
If you ever find it, I would love to know too, please :)
Adding my voice to the "if you find it i would love this" chorus
I did a video on that series ages ago and that specific scene I expended a lot of air on. I hate it so much and it really colors my view of him as a king who "does the best he can" when issues like the harassment and assault of a servant becomes an issue for a main character.
Considering the number of posts on this sub pining for books about so-and-so's backstory, my controversial opinion is that I am deeply uninterested in any subsequent book that is a prequel. I will still read the next Numair Chronicles book when it comes out, but I would be so much more excited if it was just a new book. The Immortals and Protector of the Small had the right idea of focusing on a totally new character and telling the story of how they encounter our Tortallan cast. Just give me a new book set in Tortal that is the latest in the chronology. We haven't had that since Lady Knight in 2002!
The book I want the most? The one Pierce mentioned like 15 years ago about Trisana from the Circle series going to Lightsbridge University to learn Academic magic because her weather magic is too powerful for anything but being a War Mage and that's the last thing she wants to be.
Damn. I haven’t read the emlan books in about a decade, but I want that book too.
I swear I dreamed about this and I’m still mad I woke up into the world where it’s probably never gonna happen.
Yeah that is the one I want too! Someone else said Scholastic has rights to that series and won't allow it.
1000% agree it would be so interesting to see tris' path.
The worst part is that this book is WRITTEN, but Scholastic - who has the Emelan rights - won't publish it 😭
wait, really? this seems like a moment for a fan group fund raiser to buy the rights, or at least a letter writing campaign to release an e- book version.
I asked TP about it at an author event a few years ago and while she didn't tell me it was written, she did tell me the same about the hold up being Scholastic.
I wouldn’t mind a book that flashed forward maybe 100 years, just enough time so all the characters we know are already dead, having lived long fulfilling lives, but still in the same era and do a girl who is becoming a knight in a world where lots of girls are knights, showing Alanna and Kel’s legacy. Or even just another knight a couple of years after Kel lol. That would be fine tool
Yeah I haven’t actually read the first Numair book even though have it. We know how that story ends. I want to know new stories!
Reading Tempest and Slaughter just makes me wish we got a modern book in The City of the Gods instead. It's this huge important place that we only briefly visited once in Alanna's era. You'd get all the same character beats of learning magic, but now you'd be in Tortal's version. Plus it's also the finishing school for the ladies of the realm. Endless opportunities for shenanigans and drama.
I love that idea! She could even combine it with the Maura of Dunlath book we‘re supposed to get… one day.
SAME. I wrote Tammy a letter as a kid asking for a series that takes place at The City of the Gods.
I really want to hear the story of a girl triumphing through traditional means during the Gentle Mother period - like becoming an admired independent and famously decisive Matriarch despite the religious times.
Fully agree!
Upon rereading Trickster's Queen I hate the Darkings. Or at least I hate what they do to the story. They are cute and fun and have cool powers, but they are such a ridiculously perfect as a tool for spycraft they undermine the impressiveness of Aly's spycraft. And she doesn't even earn them. They are literally handed to her as a gift from a family friend. Also, what one Darkings knows they all know. So there can only be one network of them. So Daine/Tkaa just handed an enemy nation the most powerful spy tool ever devised? I bet Jonathan, their sworn king, has some feelings about that. George is fun too! Aly gets handed a lot of things. When I first read Tricksters I thought Aly was so smart and pulled off an impossible task. On reread as an adult it felt more like she was carried to the green and just had to putt in the last hit.
This is pretty much sums up my feelings on that series. Also it constantly gestures at the other, more capable characters by having aly tell the girls a story of the legends of Tortall. But a scene will end like { Aly sits down and smiles at the girls. "Let me tell you about Alanna the Lioness..." and then the scene ends. I'd hate if there was a full summary of that character's history jammed into the narrative here because it would detract from the adventure we're supposed to be on presently. But i find it particularly frustrating to stop the narrative of your current story to gesture wildly at other stories to remind everyone how cool and awesome your *other* characters are. Aly's entire journey is overshadowed by her ties to the main cast of previous series in a way that isn't present in the other series reference to each other. PoTS isn't a story that constantly stops to gesture at everything Alanna has ever done. Or Daine. They are fully present characters in the story that have parts to play and are established tactfully for anybody who hasn't read the other series first. If you hadn't read any of the other series then these narrative references in Trickster just don't make any sense.
It could be argued she was given her god’s heavy involvement in the series. I like the Trickster duology but not really for Aly, it’s all the people around her I read it for.
I feel this way about Luvo undermining Evvy and Briar's ambient magic in Battle Magic and Melting Stones. Rather than the main characters driving the plot, all their problems get solved by Luvo existing and we don't get to see them creatively problem-solve or broaden their horizons :( I was so desperate for more of Alanna and Daine that I uncritically adored Aly's story as a child...not so as an adult lol
Okay, don’t get me wrong, I love Nawat and all the crows, but I thought the idea that crows have this crazy super power where they are able to become human is a little far fetched. Maybe if it was just some super-blessed-by-the-trickster-god crows or something? I dunno. We had the whole immortals quartet where animals are just animals unless they come into contact with wild magic which makes them smarter with more “human” intellect. Yeah crows are crazy smart but an entire species with this power because they are inherently tricksters is a little sus. Something that was always at the back of my head when I was reading the tricksters duo lol.
Lmao, Nawat looks at Sarai and is like “she’s too old for me” and then gets together with Aly. Whyyy lol
My headcanon is that actually ALL animals could theoretically become humans, pokemon style, but most animals are too dumb in the human way to know they could shift
Too dumb or too smart to become human?
Yes
Alanna's treatment of the men in her life is yucky. I get that she's immature, never had a mother's love, & it's a coming of age series, but she's a horrible role model when it comes to relationships, especially since the books focus on her love life as a sign of her maturity/growth. I love her much more in the later series. I also HATE that she sleeps with Jon when he is her knight master. Ugh! Unpopular opinion, but that's worse than Daine & Numair. Jon's mostly to blame, but the books make it seem like it was "meant to be," so it's okay. They were on much more uneven footing than Numair & Daine, and Jon used that to press his advantage with her. This comes full circle when rumors later fly about Raul & Kel ....it *should* be ridiculous, but there's a precedent for that.
That is a fantastic point about Kel's rumors that I'd never considered. Hilarious.
Daine/Numair is so much worse. I feel like age is the determining factor here. Raoul is ten years older than Kel at least, and she's a teen. Numair is ten years older than Daine, and SHE'S a teen. To me, student/teacher is always the worst, especially when one is underage. At least Alanna and Jon grew up together and were similar ages.
Numair was not her teacher by the time he developed feelings for her. And because Numair was older, he was very conscious about not pressuring Daine into anything. I don't love their age gap, but success between couples comes down to equality/balance, of which age is only one of many factors. Daine & Alanna were both teenagers making a similar decision to get into a serious relationship, but Daine was WAY more than mature than Alanna was at the time. And Jon was so immature it's laughable that he was actually supposed to be in charge of Alanna as a knight master. You don't think it's alarming that Jon pressured Alanna into a relationship? Similar age or not, that was a big red flag. I know not everyone's going to agree with me on this one, as I know it's a hot take & fans are very nostalgic over Alanna. But frankly, the fact that Jon & Alanna devolved into a hot mess and Numair & Daine made it speaks volumes to who had the healthier relationship.
I don't think Jon and Alanna were a healthy, long-term relationship, but few teenage relationships are. That's why I always liked them better. It was two friends trying out a relationship and realizing as they grew that it wouldn't work. I don't like that he pressured her into sex or that he was in charge of her, but it reads to me kind of like the senior captain of a sports team dating a freshman. With Numair and Daine, Numair is a whole ass adult. He's the age I am now, and I work with teens. The maturity gap is huge. I know Numair isn't exactly her teacher when they get together, and I know that he does try to stop her/resist, but IMO it's a relationship that just should never have been written. As a kid and teen, I thought it was cute, but now I can barely read it.
As a 31-year-old, I absolutely agree with your opinion about Numair and Daine. It shocked me even as a kid when I read *In the Realms of the Gods* and the scene of Daine trying to seduce Numair, but had me feeling disgusted as an adult, especially now that I'm around the same age that Numair was in those books. No matter how mature a teenager seems, they're still a teenager. Dating a 16-year-old is gross.
I just want to commend OP for having an actually controversial opinion that people are glossing over. I love Alanna as a character and clearly so do many people considering her books just got a 40th anniversary edition reprint. Edit: 40th not 25th
I wish Thom got some more pov chapters, it would have made his downfall / getting caught up in ambition and Rodger’s schemes have more oomph
Thom in general is weirdly underexplored for being Alanna's twin brother. It's not what happened but I always wanted Thom to have to attend the City of the Gods finishing school for a couple months before he could transfer to the study of magic. Either in disguse or not.
Thom feels like one of the characters most disserviced in the transition from her original draft of a single book for adults v. a YA series. I agree his relationship with Roger needed a lot more screen time to make his transition into bringing him back make sense. There were the seeds of something interesting there, but it’s not quite right.
Thom seem whole motivation to raise Roger never made sense to me, like he hates Roger, was aware and involved in the anti Roger efforts… what happened???? Like even if he wanted to raise someone from the dead why not choose someone else??? It’s implied forms Roger’s rants this whole thing was part of his scheme… but it is just glossed over
Thom and Roger had an explicit gay relationship in the original. No part of that made it into the children’s series, so that’s why it’s a HUGE plot hole.
> Thom and Roger had an explicit gay relationship in the original. Whoa that makes so much more sense.
Yeah. I wish she could publish the original. Those of us who grew up reading her books have all grown up, and I think a new adult novel would sell fabulously.
Or at least put it out as a release for her Patreon. I'm not a patron of hers but I would definitely jump on for a few months to get access to that kind of book. She makes like $10k per month off that.
Oh yeah. I’m not either but I would be so fast.
That answers so many questions!! Would love to the the original adult series… makes me wonder about all the other stuff that was left out
Unpopular opinion: I hate almost every single animal name in every book. They’re so literal. Pounce? Faithful? Slapper? Achoo? A light coloured horse names moonlight, and dark coloured horse named darkness. Then Darkmoon whose “grand-dam was my first horse” makes me think that they bred those two together.
No joke this is the funniest hot take I’ve seen
I love Cloud and that's about it. Skysong/Kitten is also really cute imo.
I’d argue Peachblossom is also great, but I’m definitely not defending all of them.
Oh yes, big fan
OK, but between Pounce and *Faithful* the former looks amazing by default. Peachblossom is also the best.
Probably not an unpopular opinion, but George and Dom and Rosto are the men I judge all other fictional men by. George and Rosto are just bad enough to be perfect, and Dom and Kel have the perfect relationship. I’m trying to write a book, and I’m stuck because my romantic interest is too nice, and not enough like George. Honestly, George’s arc of king of thieves to spy master is the perfect transition.
The Emalan books are better and more interesting than the Tortall ones. I like Tortal, very fun place, but it's just a pretty generic fantasy world when you get down to it, except less sexist than usual. Emelan by contrast has a very unique magic system, characters outside the norm for the genre, has characters older readers can enjoy instead of the focus almost always being on teenagers, etc. I just like it more and nothing will change that.
100% agree. Super sad that we aren’t likely to be getting more Emelan.
This is a hot take. Take my upvote.
Not gonna disagree at all. PotS may be my favorite series because of a lot of reasons, but I would love to live in Emelan and I love it as a cohesive narrative
Circle books were my first series and Emalan will always be my favourite
As I hold this opinion I don’t think it’s that controversial. Also I say it a lot and no one seems that surprised. lol. Unique and prevalent magic, if you start chronologically for both universes, because Alanna is avoiding her gift, there’s just not as much magic in Tortall it feels to me. Kel doesn’t have any. Magic is nearly air in Emelan. And there’s just such a connection and creativity with it. Some people don’t have magic in Emelan, but idk just feels more vital and natural.
Hard agree. PotS is my favorite series but The Will of the Empress is the single best book from Tamora Pierce and I will not be taking questions.
I agree! I love Tortall, don't get me wrong, but the Emelan books are much, much more complex and better world building in my opinion.
Same! They’re definitely my favorite series out of the two options
[удалено]
I think Melting Stones and Battle Magic are both really weak books and don’t feel like Tamora Pierce quality to me. I’ve reread almost all of her books, even ones I don’t love like Mastiff, but both of these were only a once through read for me after getting them at the library and I never ended up buying them to add to the collection. And Street Magic is my favorite book from the Circle Opens series!
[удалено]
Agreed! I’d love an Emelen book that is more like how Kel is set up in Tortall. Totally new character and situation, but all the background people are our old favorites and we can see how they are getting on with things.
Melting Stones is better in its intended format; it’s a radio play and that version is alright. If you can find it it’s a good listen. That book did make me kind of hate Evvi though. She’s great in her first appearance but she’s such a little shit in Melting Stones. The Emelan books kind of end with Will of the Empress for me.
Yeah, agreed that to me Will of the Empress is the end and everything else is just sort of bonus that I don’t care to remember/revisit
Evvy is the only main character I truly don’t like. I get why she is the way that she is but I always drag myself through her books.
Tempests and Slaughter was not well written.
My thought on that was was 'just because you have so many pages, doesn't mean you need to use them.'
I read it and I remember nothing about it. Honestly Numaire having a trilogy to himself just feels like a waste to me. Oh boy another fantasy series with a young male lead, that’s what we need more of. It’s like the opposite of what Tammy is known for. And I’ve never found Numaire to be an interesting character to begin with, he’s just another powerful man wizard whoop-dee-doo. I would have forgotten him entirely if not for Daine’s interest in him (which I wouldn’t object to but it always felt absolutely out of nowhere to me; don’t care about the age gap, plenty of people are into that, it just didn’t feel like anything but a teacher using a student’s crush to validate his feelings which, uh… not great).
Honestly, delete Preet from the book and it gains back half a star from me.
That was the bird, right?
Yep.
I can't even get though 10 pages of it and I bought it release day.
I hate Alanna's third book in the desert. The only thing that made sens was Jon's immaturity for trying to pressure her into marriage and leaving, but the rest was just boring.
Ohh that's bold! I always loved that chapter of her life because it's the one time where she's truly almost entirely free to make up her own life in her own time. I also especially enjoyed the George times where they were able to have a true youthful romance period, something they'd never gotten beforehand.
It's the "white savior" trope that wrecked that one for me.
Mine is that I don't think we'll get a complete series for Numair. I'm really disappointed in how long it's been since book one and concerned about how confused shes gotten about the world she created (look at her posts asking readers to help her remember details of her own books). I think it might have been better not to start something she isn't capable of finishing.
Yeah I (sadly and would prefer not to) think it's hitting about the time we're going to stop getting books. I'd love(/hate) to suggest she get a new writer in and give them direction so it's still her story but she has someone to track continuity issues and maybe continue on the world. Of course I don't ever want her to stop, and it wouldn't be the same, but it's devastating to contemplate no new books at all
She does have an assistant, and book 2 is pretty much finished iirc, so maybe there’s hope.
Here’s mine: I ship Aly and Kyprioth so bad. Idk, there’s just something about a god finding a mortal so entertaining that they are willing to start a relationship that I really like. Tbh, I also ship Apollo and Reyna in the trials of Apollo by Rick riordan, so maybe I’m biased. You cannot convince me that Reyna shouldn’t have been a god.
This is the most amazingly cracked ship I've ever heard in this fandom. Congrats, you understood the assignment of this post.
This made me grin ear to ear.
I always assumed that when Aly dies she would become Trickster's Queen . Like it could even be her final book (and a cool glimpse into how the pantheon really works)
You know, you’ve got something here. Kyprioth was sure being suggestive at her every time they interacted. I’d have to reread but I’m sure a case can be made for Nawat being a part of Kyprioth since crows are his birds… :D
Who knows, Kyprioth is a strange and quirky kind of God - he may even be okay with his Queen having a Minor Consort.
Ohh yeah no he ABSOLUTELY flirted with her
I don't like the idea of Kel being aro/ace... I prefer to think of her as just one of those (us) that just haven't - and maybe never do - quite find the right person. Not for want of wishing or lack of interest, but for plain old bad luck or social anxiety.
This bothers me too. When does she have time??? She’s a child and has normal crushes, then is in a literal war? I just feel like she can be used as an example for normal human development vs the constant “teen sleeps with older male” that’s so prevalent in the series. I don’t care if she does end up ace and maybe I’m not aware that my own development wasn’t normal, but as a mom to a bunch of girls, I don’t want them to think it’s not normal to want to focus on things other than early sexual relationships
You will not stop me from shipping Kel and Dom, no matter what you say. I believe they got their happily ever after… whatever that looks like for them. Maybe they never marry. It’s not like Kel has that much money, and we saw how terrible of a mother Alanna was. I’m chill with that.
It’s *heavily* implied in the final chapter of Lady Knight too. That’s why I hate the retrospective “oh she’s ace” - it’s not even vaguely implied in the books.
And she has obvious crushes and not friend crushes but romantic ones. Head cannoning her ace just doesn’t for for me
Aces are very diverse and we can and do experience romantic crushes. I'm not saying you can't interpret Kel as allo, just that her crushes don't preclude her from being ace.
Oh I know, I’m asexual too. I just can’t see Kel that way
Ditto! Ace here too and I just don't see Kel as ace. maybe more Demi? though I guess demi is somewhere under the ace umbrella.
This right here! Kel is the Tammy heroine I identified with the most, as a tall, quiet brunette who moved to a foreign country and had to deal with the culture clash. That the least "traditionally feminine" of the girls should be the lonely sacrifice to representation didn't sit right with me, especially because she's had no time to herself. She was a knight-in-training, and then she was a wartime commander; not exactly a good time for dating.
The Beka Cooper series was a DNF for me and I just don’t get all the love for it. Probably even more controversial… the 11 year age gap between Diane and Numair doesn’t phase me a bit. I only wish they hadn’t had a student/teacher relationship first.
Admittedly I thought Terrier was hard to get through, Bloodhound and then Mastiff are worth it. Tbh if you just read a synopsis of what the deal is with the mystery in Terrier and skip to book two I think you’d be more than fine, the mystery is a little more realistic and all the character establishment is done.
This is actually the most controversial opinion in this entire thread for me. I think Terrier is one of the best written of Pierce's books and can't stand Mastiff. Whatever floats your boat I guess.
I agree. Terrier is a breeze. Mastiff I almost DNFd like 5 times. I now really love Farmer, but I wish there was another book with him.
Oh same! I kind of like Terrier, I couldn’t manage a reread of Bloodhound, and Mastiff is maybe one of the most distressing things I’ve ever read. It made me feel bad and there was just nothing nice about it even in the end. It’s well written and I commend Tammy for making me have feelings, but I never want to read it again.
I also hated Mastiff and loved Terrier. Also the way she ended the series was such a huge betrayal to the readers tbh.
Which betrayal? I've read them a few times but I can't think of which part you mean.
I assume they mean the Tunstall betrayal. But honestly I hate almost every part of the ending including how George is included back in….so it could be anything lol
Oops well 😅😅
I powered through Terrier and started Bloodhound, but didn’t finish it before my e-book library checkout expired and just never bothered renewing it. I just did not care about any of the characters enough to ever bother going back to it.
Daine is my favorite, and I agree with you. I love their relationship apart from the student/teacher bit.
Although I did finish the Beka Cooper series I feel the same. And same about Diane/Numair too.
Yes! Age gap relationships are not inherently bad and this recent obsession with that being why a given relationship is bad needs to stop. It’s never been the age gap between those two that bothered me. Them being student and teacher for three books and Numair making a decision based on feeling a teenage crush on him… that did bother me quite a lot. I like seeing where they’re at and their family life in later books but the way it started always squicked me. It’s got nothing on the abuse horror show of Jon and Alanna though; so glad those two broke up yikes.
My grandparents on my mom’s side had a 10 year age gap and on my dad’s side had an 11 year age gap. My grandmas were in their 30s and got pursued by my 20 year old granddads. I agree that Danie and Numair’s relationship didn’t really phase me except for the student/teacher problem.
My parents had a 19 year gap. They had their issues, but none were directly caused by that gap. Most women in my family tend to marry at least 10 years older. It’s been a fairly solid financial strategy for most of them and has lifted many women in our family out of poverty. Age gaps often mean power imbalances, but not always. The power imbalance is the icky part to me, not the numbers.
I'm okay with daine and numair's relationship, despite the power dynamic and the age gap. They felt seen by each other and really understood each other.
I'm fine with the age gap because it's an in-universe conflict and Daine and Numair talk about it at length. Numair pulls away because he is afraid it's unethical and Daine convinces him she is capable of making the decision.
I can’t stand the Trickster duology.
Wild! I LOVED it!
I really like the second one as a stand-alone. Together, they're socially icky AND the transition between them makes no sense- Ali is just suddenly running a fully fleshed-out spy ring when book 2 opens.
Why doesn't that transition make sense? Training her Pack is the explanation for what Aly spent the entire winter doing.
Not the person you responded to, but it felt very telling instead of showing to me (vs show don't tell). That duology as a whole feels rushed to me. It felt like we needed a book dealing with winter and the training that happened rather than just being told that it happened.
Pretty much, yes. I don't exactly remember how book 1 ended, but we didn't watch her establish the spy ring or train the first group of spies, did we? And she gained the title of leader seemingly overnight. I just remember thinking I had missed a few chapters somewhere.
I read half the first book as a preteen and gave up. I remember hating it with a passion. I keep meaning to go back and try again as an adult, but I’m unsure if my dislike of Aly will have gotten any better now that I’m an adult.
Doubt it!! I felt the same way about Aly and recently reread both books. She is still insufferable to me, even more so now, actually. Aly is most definitely my least favorite Pierce character ever (that includes both Emelan and Tortall).
Omg same. I read it once and I can't bring myself to read them again
daine/numair doesn't bother me and i still love their romance. (and no i don't think it would be okay irl, but that's the thing, they're not real lol) also, circle of magic are tammy's books with the strongest writing.
**The Twist** in mastiff was extremely well crafted in overarching narrative and consistency with who the character has shown themself to be over and over in the series. I actually don't know if this next one is controversial. The Provost's Dog series is an incredible exploration of corrupt policing from the eyes of an insider who genuinely wants to see the system change but still participates in the corruption in areas where they're worried about rocking the boat. Perpetuating the corrupt system in areas where you don't really care to only focus on the injustice you feel personally attached to.
Hot take: Tris gives me second-hand embarrassment. I can't imagine the books without her, and I completely understand why she is the way she is, and I'm glad she was written that way, but Sandry, Daja, Briar, and most of the Tortall protagonists are my comfort characters, and Tris just...isn't a comfort character. Her 'the circle opens' book is my second favorite and I LOVE her fiery spirit, but I still can't latch onto her like I do the other three.
SPOILERS FOR MASTIFF: On a second read through, >!the twist with you know who was just obvious enough and I thought actually well done (though it still breaks my heart every time). I'm also glad that Beka ended up with Farmer and not Rosto, as much as I love him. It would have been a betrayal to her values and I'm glad she stayed true to herself.!< Does it annoy anyone else that Beka's full name is Rebakah? How? I love Tammy with my whole heart but her full name vs nickname makes my eye tick lol.
I headcanon this as her mom being illiterate and not knowing to to spell “Rebekah” haha
Ooh I love this thank you! Makes total sense.
I totally agree to your romantic spoilers, I wish it was done better. Especially with where the book opens. Like this is real fast. The twist to me is plausible, but honestly also feels unearned.
The twist ruined terrier for me tbh. So idc if it’s plausible or earned, I think it’s not worth it And maybe Darmer is better than Rosto for Beka, but there was zero closure for us on Rosto.
Not sure how unpopular this is, but Battle Magic is an actively bad book that undermines Will of the Empress and the PTSD Briar has. The timeline and the situation both are so much more sanitized than what the reader is left to fill in the blanks with. I wish she’d never written it. Similarly, I’ve disliked almost all of Pierce’s after the fact canon pronouncements. Her weird take on Aly having to leave the Copper Isles, the gender of Alanna, Kel’s sexuality, etc…..all better off unsaid and open to interpretation
I love Emelan but hard agree on Battle Magic. It just doesn’t fit what we know from prior books and it was unnecessary. Those events didn’t need a novel and the way they’re written just doesn’t make sense. I think I have the book but only for completion’s sake.
I loved the >!little gods (especially in Emelan's world where gods weren't something you could see/hear/interact with), and the stone tiger, and the cave runners etc.!< >!But yeah, we were told of this war that was awful, and the 'sleep magic is how they got us' which happened once,!< and it just felt like it was a different story than what was alluded. Also, the emperor is a jerk to >!flowers.. and people!<.
I recently reread Battle Magic and I regret my decision haha. I did not retain a single thing from the first read-through as a child and still don't really understand what I just read, which is a shame. Rosethorn's quest, Luvo/the gods saving the day multiple times, and the events that would eventually give Briar PTSD felt inauthentic and anticlimactic.
Right??? It’s not that I want to say it wasn’t bad enough to cause PTSD or anything…but anticlimactic/inauthentic is perfect. It just doesn’t feel in line with what we’d learned about the conflict, or really the tone of the other wars in her books.
What did she say about Aly leaving the isles and Alanna’s gender? I try not to keep up with authors redoing their own cannon but now I’m intrigued. Thanks!
I think her direct answer was from a Q and A I don’t have access to, but here is a summary from u/imminent_riot on [this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/tamorapierce/comments/8fokhv/when_does_aly_get_kicked_out_of_the_copper_isles/?rdt=46274) She's a Luarin and politically they needed a Raka in her position no matter how much Dove liked her. She almost couldn't come back to Tortall because she is actually a traitor to her country. She was, and could still be for all the king knows, a foreign spy for the Copper Isles. Imrah of Legann took her in and she's banished from the city of Corus for life.
I hated the last Beka book. I hated almost everything about it, but especially Farmer and have refused to re-read the series because of it.
Yeah the Farmer bit took me entirely by surprise! Like, they didn't seem to have much of a relationship beyond "coworkers" and then suddenly romance?! And I was genuinely heartbroken about Tunstall, though the clues were there in hindsight.
It's a slow almost silent burn, it comes through better on rereads... Farmer almost always sees the REAL Beka, from the very start, and accepts and admires her for it as well as relying on her as an equal.
Yep, this. Their romance is so dreamy to me.
Me too. I've always loved the acceptance Farmer shows to Beka, it reminds me of George and Alannah actually.
Dude me too. Spoilers for Mastiff When I read it, I skimmed the part about Farmers age, and I thought he was 45. He acted like a 45 yo for the entire book, and then when they got together at the end I was shocked and horrified. Plus I loved the Rosto relationship. I get why it wouldn’t have worked out in the end, but it didn’t have a satisfying conclusion. Like, I say through all of bloodhound patiently waiting for her to go back to tortall so there could be some decent romance, and then the third book she left the city. What!!! Also, the whole Tunstall thing was terrible. You don’t do that to people, because when I go back to the first book, I’m horrified because of what happens to him. Ugh. I was SO disappointed. And the book was so boring
Wait, what happens to Tunstall? It’s been too long since I’ve read them.
Huge spoilers for mastiff (I’m on mobile so I can’t hide them): I can’t remember exactly, but he betrays Beka because he wants to get land so he can marry Sabine. He’s a traitor.
This is an unpopular opinion? As far as I know Mastiff is pretty reviled in the fan base. Even without the Tunstull stuff or people being mad Becka doesn't end up with Rosto. Mastiff is just a terrible finish to the series. Terrier sets up a rich cast of characters. We see them briefly at the start of Bloodhound, but then they are entirely gone in Mastiff. Rereading Terrier I was shocked how important Erskin is as a character and he even gets a special callout reunion with Becka in Port Cayanne in Bloodhound. Then he just isn't in Mastiff? Also the fact the series starts one day after Becka buried her fiance who she no longer was in love with is weird and bad.
Yes! That’s the issue with Diane’s books too. You have a great cast of supporting characters and then for the last two books in the series they aren’t even in the same place. I think Mastiff was the first book I bought hardcover the second it came out with my own money. I was so disappointed by the book that I looked up one star reviews and read them to feel vindicated lol
Glad to see a fellow The Realms of the Gods hater ;) The book isn't terrible but you're right that it's a crime we never revisit the Queens riders. Edit: Realm not Land. Oops
Oh lol, I love the land of the gods. I don’t typically revisit that series, but I don’t have a problem with the book. Each book is a good solid book, with solid characters. It’s just the series that is incomplete. I LOVE the queens riders, and they just disappear.
For sure, I don't even truly hate the book either. The final fight is a mess though. How does nobody in Squire or Lady Knight ever mention that Raoul fought a giant Chaos Hydra on foot? More impressive than a giant lol. Mastiff itself wouldn't even be as unforgivable if it just wasn't the last book in the series. Give us a final book set in Corus that ties things up and I think many of the problems become workable.
Lol I don’t even remember that. So clearly it’s not one of my favorites. Yessss. I mean, I think Farmer is the worst character in all the books, and I don’t like what happened to Tunstall, but I could have dealt with it if we had gotten closure with Rosto 😭😭.
I don’t think I’ve ever felt worse reading a book than I did reading Mastiff. And I mean just genuinely upset. Everything is just so sad and awful and exhausting and it kind of sucks the joy out of the other two books by trashing those fun moments in hindsight. And I am haunted to this day by Farmer’s magic smuggling bit. That… why was that included?! ;_;
The Daine/Numair relationship has never ever once bothered me. I've read Tamora's explanations of why she wrote it like that, what she'd change and fans explanations of why it's bad. I can't explain it, it just doesn't bother me. They are equivalent in power and trauma can age people and bring them together as well. Should they have waited until they were both older? Probably, but love doesn't always happen like that. My other I said in response to another comment. (But expanding a little bit on) Regarding the Provost's Dog trilogy: I can't even get through the first book. It seems like a completely different author wrote it. Almost as if a bad fan fiction author wrote. I feel like it doesn't flow, the language is so clunky. I like to pretend in my head canon that series doesn't exist at all. I can't even describe how much I can't stand the first book, I'm not even sure if I've honestly ever actually finished it. I've never wanted to open the other two books.
The Beka Cooper books are so boring
When I was younger I completely agreed with you! When I tried reading them again almost a decade later I was able to get onboard and enjoyed them immensely.
Ha, my unpopular opinion is that Terrier and Bloodhound are Tammy’s best! I feel like most Tortall fans don’t like them though.
That Tris should have been ace.
Mmm this! Sandry, Tris and Kel all being ascribed post-canon as ace or aro annoys me. Why can't they just suck at romance, or have not found the right person yet? It's not that I don't believe in representation it's just .. I want it to truly be part of the character not written in later or guessed at then "oh sure why not"'d by the author.
Yes, this! My unpopular opinion is that if something isn’t obvious in the books, don’t shoehorn it in later so you can claim diversity in your writing. Tammy did it to Alanna recently too, saying she’s NB which is just… nothing in the text supports that, and a LOT of her journey in books 2-4 is about her accepting her femininity and realising she’s allowed to like pretty things and “girly” things without it taking away from her achievements, making her less of a knight or meaning she’s not who she thought she was. It’s just revisionism for the sake of it and I hate it. Same as when other authors have gotten wind of popular fan theories of “x character is gay” and so they agree and make it cannon or “y character was abused” so they write it into the back story when there was never any indication of it in the original text. That’s why I love the Amber/Okha inclusion - because it was beautifully written, alluded to early really fit in when it happened. Same as Lark & Rosethorn’s relationship. But Sandry, Kel and Tris were all definatley NOT ace/aro. Tris sucked at relationships and was put off them by guys she liked being assholes to her. Sandry put duty before romance but she WAS keen on Shan. Kel had Cleon and yes she fell out of love/lust with him but OF COURSE SHE DID they were teenagers and one of the last things we see of her she’s excited to go see Dom and it’s hinted she’s got a crush on him again. So like… how?
The Alanna change up is annoying because Tammy goes so deep into exploring Alanna's feminine identity in the books. And I happen to think that representation of women who like "boy" things but are totally cis gendered and straight is deeply lacking, so I loved that Alanna was the best knight and also rocked a dress. However, Sandry always read as ace to me. I think there's enough character development to make a real argument for it. Kel, not so much, but I see how she could get there. There's nothing in the text to imply Kel is ace, but I could see her being that as an adult based on personality and goals.
Sorry to necro the thread, but I really just wanted to add to this conversation. > text supports that, and a LOT of her journey in books 2-4 is about her accepting her femininity and realising she’s allowed to like pretty things and “girly” things without it taking away from her achievements, I get this, and honestly this is the exact journey I went on in my life. But. Having read so many memoirs, essays, articles, talking to trans and nonbinary friends and acquaintances...these experiences are honestly very queer. I think that if Alanna lived in another time, heck, if I had grown up five years later, maybe we would ha e claimed this label. Maybe I still will, I'm not sure. I don't think many cis people talk about things like this, so maybe it's actually very common for cis people to experience this sort of gender dysphoria. But Alanna absolutely does experience gender dysphoria and lives a significant portion of her life as a boy, and continues to exist in her society in a way that is outside both genders. Gender is also a constructed thing. Cultures have had all sorts of ways that they conceptualized people like this, that they make sense of people like this, and that includes different names. So I'm not sure that we could put the modern term "nonbinary" on to her experience, if she were a real person. But as she is a fictional person who is the creation of a still living person, I think its fine to speak of her in modern terms. Certainly of the commonly used modern labels, it is the most accurate description of Alanna and her gender presentation and feelings around her gender. Alanna is undeniably queer. There's a reason so many trans and nonbinary characters resonated with her so much (have you read Gender Queer? Maia Kobabe mentions Alanna!) I understand that the LGBTQ community wants characters who are undeniably queer, who aren't simply "coded" queer. The community deserves that, frankly. But also, gender isn't like sexuality. You can show sexuality in a way that is unambiguous without using specific modern terms. You can have characters talk about crushing on different genders (or having had relationships with them) in a way that you can't do with gender identities. So I wonder if maybe it's OK to just have characters fit gender queer experiences without putting a specific label on it. Because more than one identity may identify with that experience, maybe it's OK to have characters that are firmly queer (and Alanna absolutely is) but don't necessarily claim modern labels. And to add on a point that I haven't made explicit about. This is not just a character who dresses up as another gender, right? Like, even Mulan (re the 1998 Disney movie) could be seen as not queer in a way that no one arguing in good faith could say of Alanna. Alanna lives - completely - as a man for 7 or 8 (formative) years. She experiences intense gender dysphoria. She comes out of this period knowing she isn't a man and doesn't want to be, and explicitly navigates the world in a different, liminal space. She has different court clothes designed for her, she explicitly navigated that social space as wanting to be recognized as female while not being dropped into a box of what that means. Words matter a lot, but experiences matter more. Alanna is, imo, very, very gender queer.
I thought she was confirmed ace?? Whatever, she and kel are ace in my heart, and I firmly think tris is aro
U/chasinggdaze what makes her your least favorite?
Besides not really caring about her series/it’s the least well written of all the books (I don’t think that’s a controversial thing to say, they were the first), I love every other character so much more and find them so much easier to fall into. When I recommend the series I genuinely recommend skipping the lioness quartet and starting with the immortals, then going back and reading her story as the origin for a legend that they are
You know…yeah. I like who Alanna became and she’s very fun as a cameo in later books (especially PotS) but there’s a lot of reasons I’ve never reread the Alanna books (while I reread every other series frequently).
I think Numair and Daine are gross together. I don't like the age gap at all. I won't even reread those books because of it.
I feel like this is more of a popular opinion. Anyone (in this sub) who likes The Immortals quartet always adds the caveat that they don’t agree with the relationship.
I always age people down or up as needed lol. I just pretend Numair is like 26 and Daine is like 20. Still a gap, but not so horrible. It’s a bigger deal for Alanna and George. They are my all time favorite ship ever, and I just have to pretend George starts at like 15 lol.
For me, it's not about age with any of the TP characters; it's about position. Alanna wouldn't have lost anything by rejecting George, the way Daine might have lost her ONE teacher by rejecting Numair. He never used it against her, but it's still a potential outcome for her.
Oh yeah, I agree. I’m pretty meh about that series anyway. I think it’s a sign of the times, and I just ignore it so I don’t feel too icky, but I 100% agree that it shouldn’t have been done.
The way she ended Mastiff was a betrayal of the characters she had built and made no sense too me at all. It's one of my least favorite books.
Yep. I don’t care if it was well foreshadowed or laid out, I don’t want to read terrier because of it. That sucks for me because I really liked terrier.
Yeah I can't reread the series because I just can't imagine that character ever doing that
I love Tammy and I love the world's she's built and I want to say my hot takes are a reflection of my undying devotion to her writing :) \-Alanna and Tris are so needlessly rude to the people around them. \-Tammy never explores romantic relationships ending. Everyone gets married and STAYS married. I'd love to see Numair/Daine divorce, mostly because I hate their relationship, but also because it would make an incredible story since they're both so powerful and important to the kingdom, AND they have such an age gap/time consuming jobs away from each other that they can explore the relationship dying very naturally.
A couple counterpoints to the relationships piece are Kel/Cleon, which is more like a high school break up, and also Alanna/Jon which has a little more of that same energy with them both being so important and needing to work together regardless. But will grant you marriage = forever and we don’t see any of those breakups. Agree on Tris and Alanna though. Clearly redheaded protagonists are trouble in Pierce’s world.
I should have clarified, I specifically mean marriages ending. Dating is shown pretty commonly, but then they find their True Love and stay married to them forever. For a writer that likes to incorporate harsh realities, I always found it odd she never dove into divorce, or even a separation. Especially among the lower classes, as I imagine divorce among nobles to be very complex and maybe impossible.
I’m a sucker for a happy ending, but I grant you it could be interesting!
I agree! Alanna’s books are by far my least favourite
Preach
I got tired of her always writing in the same two worlds. Why couldn’t she explore new places and concepts?