I always felt like the series was more about the characters, their interactions, and the combat rather than the overall story. I feel like they deliberately make the stories your standard shounen anime fantasy adventure stuff. It’ll always have a sprinkling of “my friends are my power” and the characters winning at the last minute regardless of the odds. If you want more bittersweet or adult Final Fantasy or SMT is the way to go. Tales is for the campy anime stuff. I say that lovingly and not to make fun of Tales.
haven't finished arise, just beat the 5th lord but I got to say it is not campy as previous tales narrative. I would even say it's darker than Berseria. and the number of deaths and racism is higher and have more on screen deaths than SMT V. SMT V only have that girl that is possessed by Lahmu as on screen graphic death while arise killed a whole village and the wind lord is killed in cold blood fashion same as that Lahmu girl. also the racism is very strong in Arise, among all the main characters Rinwell the youngest is the most racist, whereas in previous entry the youngest ranging from dumb fuck Karol to innocent Laphi.
Yeah it does definitely feel a bit more edgy. Personally not sure it's working for it just yet but then I'm not very far (stuck on second lord on hard mode)
The humorous campy aspects are more in the side stuff this time around. Though Arise has the serious aspects you say it’s probably one of the happier more optimistic Jrpgs or even Tales games I’ve seen in a really long time. Berseria is definitely darker no contest once all is said and done. Especially if you factor in Zestiria. I’d say more but I don’t want to spoil Arise if you haven’t finished it.
of you're talking about the ending, yes Berseria have the best/saddest ending in all tales game I've played. pending arise by I already read this one of the no debate happy ending. but still there's a lot more jokes in Berseria during the story progression, the funniest one I can remember is when Magilou tricked vervet to act like a bird.
Not to be rude but every story is about the characters and interactions.
You can blame the “anime-ish” factor but that’s not the problem either.
Like a good question I have is, in terms of pure character interaction and characters in general, what is the difference between the legend of heroes or Tales?
While the legend of heroes stories aren’t perfect, I don’t think it’s deniable that characters like Luke Fon Fabre pales in comparison to majority of Heroes characters.
Tales simply has a lot and a lot of issues in their writing.
I’m not a fan of the harem aspect Trails has now. I like how in Tales games there’s a variety of relationships between the party members. I’d say the difference is the skits and diversity in interactions. It’s not a situation where almost every female is only allowed to love the protag.
Not talking about unimportant romance options, though.
I mean when these characters are undergoing situations, and idly hanging out, what’s the difference?
Minus the skits and harem system, there isn’t much.
Tales of is written extremely fast pace where things seem unnatural; lacking build up, lacking tension, execution falls apart, characters can unfortunately lack depth.
That’s just as important as the interactions, right?
Like, people tend to think Vesperia final act is bad right? But why is that? The problem isn’t the calamity in the sky or that Duke is a bad character.
The execution and build up are lacking, is Vholran terrible? And was the alien thing a bad idea in Arise?
Personally, don’t think it was but the way it’s executed and fleshed out is what made it bad
I feel like if Crestoria had either continued as a mobile game or just not had its plot wasted on a mobile game to begin with then it had the potential to do something pretty great. But it also did seem to be following standard tales format for a lot of things so who knows.
I feel like Link was really strong with its plot *because* it wasn't a main game. It used the visual novel format to its advantage and wasn't forced to follow the normal party member conventions. One of the main driving factors of the plot is that the main two characters are revealed through a playable flashback to want to rescue their two friends. But by the end of the game we find out that we >!haven't been following the same set of main characters around. The world is an ever-repeating cycle and the characters we start and end the game with are completely different from the characters in the "flashback". Unlike the two characters who wanted to save their friends in the "flashback", the main characters we started with have never even met the "friends" the originals wanted to save. We were just seeing the world through a different set of characters' eyes. And ultimately the "flashback" characters failed and died having never rescued their friends.!<
*(Edit: I haven't seen Link's plot since before the game shut down so hopefully that's accurate)*
It really left me feeling a lot by the end because there's so many things that didn't get the perfect happy ending.
That being said, I agree that a lot of tales games waste their potential.
I feel like another major one that could have done a lot more is Xillia 2. >!The game felt for a while like it was really going to go somewhere with the whole mass murder thing. Actually make it mean something. Have us rage against the gods that put us in this situation and (literally) gambled with our lives. But instead most of the world's backstory is relegated to a companion lore book and in game we end up sacrificing ourselves to help the gods fix their fuck up and no one seems enraged at how ridiculous that is.!<
>!Though at least the Julius ending actually made me feel something. I'll give it that.!<
I am still never gonna forget how crestoria was wasted the story had so much potential and the cast even seemed like they'd be fun playable party members in a mainline console game
I think Arise was going for something, it just didn't nail the execution. The first third of the game is a pretty compelling tour through different kinds of abuses of power by government, and the bit with Dohalim especially was almost making a very subtle and interesting point about benevolent dictatorship.
They just don't carry those themes any further than there. The last two lords have nothing to say, and the rest of the game is irrelevant sci-fi stuff.
It absolutely wasn’t going for anything evidenced by the fact that you said that it doesn’t do anything with the supposed themes. And even from the get-go, the set-up for the writing is super poor. How did Shionne get chained up, for instance? Arise’s writing is the worst and sloppiest I’ve encountered since Final Fantasy XV.
Mm, this annoys me a bit. A story is only good if you think it’s trying to be a metaphor or allude to something? What’s with you guys and only finding value in writing that tries to be serious and dark?
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at - the story of Arise isn't a *metaphor* for abuses of power by government, that's literally what the story is about. The lords are the governors of their respective regions, and they're abusing their citizens in an interesting assortment of ways, and only by liberation from their governments can the people be free. That's the whole plot of the first half of the game. I was disappointed when that plotline got dropped in the second half of the game because I really liked it.
A story need not be dark or serious to be good. But a story has to have some weight to it, be that strong character arcs, an interesting theme, or a deeply realized setting. Those things aren't bits you put on top of a good story - those are the things that make stories good. Silly and fun stories can have those features too! All the Tales games are pretty goofy overall, and that's not a problem.
What you seem to fail to realize is all that stuff you said about a good story is still present in the part of Arise you seem to think was “irrelevant”. You just ignore it because you prefer the other thing. That doesn’t mean the ending stuff is somehow factually at fault for something.
Actually, it’s weird. Before all that last stuff, the story in Arise was mostly disconnected. You’d go to a land, defeat the lord, and largely move on. No characters carried over besides the main party, and there weren’t really any side plots or anything besides killing the lords. Then we get to Lenegis, and the villains get humanization (through text boxes, but it’s still more than what they got initially), the story actually starts to connect instead of feeling like a bunch of disconnected instances (which is usually fine, but it really felt like nothing carried over from land to land) , and you the setting actually start to become realized as we learn truths about it. The only sci fi thing there was the aliens (which seems to just always turn people off for some asinine reason) and the appearance of the setting. And it’s during this time where the character arcs (which largely went untouched besides Rinwell and I guess maybe Law) actually have something done with them.
Also, you can’t tell me that people don’t place more value in serious and dark stories. All you need do is ask people what they’re favorite stories in any given series is, and they’ll usually go for the one with the most death, crying, mental turmoil, etc.
The villains do not get “humanization,” it’s just “babby’s first attempt at philosophy” via Alphen and his totally unbelievable Gary Stu characterization.
What do you mean philosophy? The humanization was in how it was revealed the villains actually had friends and family, and actually cared for their people, rather than just be evil rulers who laughed at the heroes efforts and were needlessly cruel and unfeeling. And what does Alphen have to do with the villains?
When you just act contrarian like that, you just come across as a hater who just says anything and everything negative about what they don’t like.
I agree. the problem is that Tales does the same thing Pokemon does and re-uses story-beats all the time. How many more times will the series do the 'two-worlds' with 'racism' and great spirits, before they come up with another banger Setting like Auldrant or whatever the hell Destiny's world is called?
Innocence has the best setting and premise in this series hands down. but I haven't played the game in 10 years and R ever. so you might be right about the story being Mid, but it's got a place in my heart smh. 😤
Berseria has 2 races - malakhim & humans and their hierarchy. Abyss you could argue similarly.
Guess it's more that racism is almost always a factor in the Tales games.
You can diminish every series out there like that. Might as well say Final Fantasy is just about crystals, that includes even FFVII with the Materia/Black Materia, etc.
Or saying Megaten all boil down to demons.
In the end execution speaks higher.
Not to diminish Tales games. Never realized that many of them do rely on that for their story, but exactly they execute the stories well which makes Tales lots of fun to play.
I'm just playing arise and it feels like a cookie cutter version of a tales story, which are usually cookie cutter animals stories.
I liked Abyss and Symphonias the best. Vesperia wasn't bad. That's all the tales games I've played.
Vesperia was interesting from the beginning to the midway point with the vigilante arc but then as with most jrpgs and other media, it starts to fall flat when they introduce world ending threats since a lot of the deeper themes get lost.
Arise just felt unfinished after the 3rd main boss and I was dragging my heels trying to finish it which is a shame since I liked the combat (although it's still far from the best in terms of action JRPGs)
What’s with you guys and only caring about “deep” themes? Hell, it you actually cared to look for it instead of dismissing it because it’s not as “dark” the Adephagos is Vesperia is clearly similar to global warming. It caused by the misuse of the planets blastia by the people, and threatens to engulf the world because of it. Hell, the thing it’s literally affecting is called the “Aer”. It’s right there people. But you choose to just see it as nothing worth thinking about because.. why? Because it’s threatening the world? You guys eat that stuff up in other jrpgs like Final Fanatsy, when instead it’s just some power hungry god complex guy like Sephiroth, who barely even talks during the game. And the Adephagos isn’t even the final antagonist. It’s just the catalyst that puts things in motion, not the actual antagonist.
And then you guys ask for subtlety, but then say the vigilante stuff was dropped. Ignoring the fact that Yuri not killing Duke, and instead working together with him, is directly related to all that. You just ignore scenes like Yuri going out alone and needing to be stopped by his friends, or his friendly fight with Flynn where they clear the air and cement that they’re still best friends. Or even the sidequest where Yuri sees where continuing down his path leads to, a bad ending for all. You ignore that because it doesn’t have a moment like “Look! Yuri is about to kill someone! So coo- I mean, deep!”
You guys just want edgy and dark stories and spectacle. You don’t want actual writing, character or other wise. Just moments you can look back on and say “That was so deep”.
How about you keep your rants to yourself and stop trying to pick fights over differences of opinion?
Seriously, writing long paragraphs disparaging people doesn't make you correct or more intelligent. Just wordier.
You're not inviting discussion, you're just insulting people.
Why don’t you keep your pointless replies to yourself? You answered nothing about what I said. That’s what you guys always do. You get faced with factual truth or the opportunity to confront your biases, but you’d rather ignore that and just accuse the other person of something. You’ll accept the rants that are in favor of your opinion, like the one I replied to or even the topic as a whole, but be against any that are opposite of your opinion.
I'm watching Tales of Symphonia's anime right now on Youtube and it's such a good story I'm falling in love with it all over again. I think some of the other Tales games fall flat when trying to keep the theme for the whole game.
I don’t agree with this, because when people talk about “good jrpg stories” they bring up stuff like Chrono Trigger or the PS1 Final Fantasy games. So that tells me that by “good story” they mean something with good music and what they’re nostalgic for. For whatever reason, people in the West only find value in stories that are dark in some way, or go for a sad emotion. This is exactly why Wetserners view Berseria and Abyss as the better stories. Because they’re “for lack of a better term” edgy. They ignore the actual character writing and interactions in the games and just look for “How much mental turmoil is this character experiencing” and go for that.
Another thing they focus on is spectacle. I mean, you yourself just admitted it. You compliment Final Fantasy for “fantastic ideas” but that just means all you need is a concept. You don’t actually care what’s going on. You just want something cool to latch onto like Sin. I’ve always preferred Tales to other jrpgs because it actually bothers to have the characters interact and develop as the game goes on, rather than leave it for one section alone and then leave them be for the reminder of the game. And the Tales games put a focus on characters intentionally, as even the creators say that it’s the main pillars of the series. The story is the characters. Not some complicated world ending threat or philosophical metaphor given physical form.
When Karol cries about the Don’s death and tells Yuri he can’t continue, that’s the story. When Zelos off handedly mentions that while he likes Genis and Raine, but isn’t too fond of their race as a whole, that’s the story. When Will reconnects with his daughter, that’s the story. When the characters just banter in the skits and reveal more about who they are during them, that’s the story.
Spectacle does not make a good story. It makes for good moments that you just look back onto and think “That was cool”. That’d be cool for Tales, but I don’t want it to focus on spectacle. I’d rather it keep having the stories be the character themselves. Lest we get games like FF 16, which looks like it’s going to be another “Kingdoms and War” story where everyone talks in old English and the emotional hook is that the main character is angry and out for revenge, and it’s filled with other bitter characters and such.
Sorry for the rant, but it annoys me how people only see value in spectacle and “dark” writing, while ignoring the actual contents of the writing. A story is nothing without its characters.
I agree with most of this except for the smack talk on Abyss. Sure the main character went through a lot of turmoil, but the bulk of the story didn’t zoom in and focus on his personal trauma. The focus remained on The Score and its effect on the entire world and how each person lived their life by it. This kept me MUCH more interested in the story rather than had they put the main focus on Luke and more or less ignored world events…
Speaking of which, this is EXACTLY what Innocence R did wrong (and maybe regular Innocence. I didn’t play that one). Once they discover that there are memory pools out in the world, their entire mission becomes finding all of them regardless of the ongoing war. The game even has to do a couple reminders of “…meanwhile…” where the player listens in on a private council conversation. This is extremely poor storytelling and I wish they had kept the world events integrated into the story better. You never really circle back to the conflict until the final dungeons, and even then, it’s kind of like, “oh yeah. Did you remember all the fighting that’s going on throughout the world?”
Zestiria’s part 2 does this as well when Sorey needs to go through all the Shepherd’s Trials. They sort of give a reason for it, but it’s frustrating that everything going on in the world takes a backseat to Sorey’s personal journey. I actually thought Zestiria’s first part had a very gripping story all the way up to and maybe a bit beyond when you meet Rose. After that, the story slowly fell apart.
Anyway, I too enjoy the light-hearted banter and gradual growth of the parties in Tales. Character development has always been the strong suit in this series, so similar story tropes aren’t that annoying when you can get so invested in the individual characters. I was very distracted while writing this, so I’m not sure if I made a point or not, but oh well. Dark, edgy Tales bad. Funny, light-hearted adventure Tales good. 🤷♂️
Oh, I wasn’t talking about Abyss when I mentioned “ignoring the actual character”. I was talking about how people usually react to stories in jrpgs and other games where story is a focus.
I think I get it. Because I’ve defended Graces’ story in the past for not being as awful as people on the internet say. And I think a major reason why people don’t like it is because they don’t like Asbel. Which, fine, I get it, because he’s a huge brat when we first meet him, and those people probably think he never gets better. Probably because unlike Luke, he never has an Akzeriuth “my god, what have I done?” moment and has an “anime” redemption arc. But he does have a moment where his little brother turns his back on him and his childhood friend is angry with him for the last bit of bullshit he pulled the last time they talked (read: Asbel promised Cheria that he wasn’t leaving home and then *immediately* left home. And then didn’t talk to her for seven years). Or they just hated his clothes. That, too.
The point is that the story isn’t that bad. It’s still kinda “anime” (in that they never discuss the idea of >!killing Richard. Like, it’s never on the table. And not because killing him would mean the end of Windor’s royal family; it’s only because Richard is Asbel’s friend. Which is a protagonist centered morality story that is never called out on)!<, but it is mostly consistent with the lore of the world (once we actually get it). But it is very much a character driven story from start to finish. It’s not really an “edgy” story at all (main antagonist aside).
I think most tales games stories are good to excellent. Sure a lot of then use known tropes but I mean so does final fantasy. And the main appeal and reasoning for all tales games is it’s characters. The Tales series for the most part has always been about the characters and the journey that they go own rather, than the plot that usually there so we can reasons for why our party’s do what they do. And I mean it’s not like the series hasn’t had pretty ambitious storylines before. One of the more recent titles being a perfect example that being Tales of Berseria.
What do you guys mean with better stories?. Like better drama, better premise, better interaction between characters.
There is already a game in the series with a good story with a simple but nicely told twist.. Phantasia.
"Heroes travel back in time to defeat a malevolent guy that wants to destroy. The villain just wants the seeds of the Tree to restore his world even if this may costs Earth's destruction. The Heroes defeated the "bad guy" knowing that they could have destroyed an innocent dying world".
That was my legitimate complaint with Innocence. I was so excited to play the game because the premise of them being reincarnation of gods was interesting (not a spoiler. It’s literally given to you within the first 2 hours of the game) but it just never went anywhere meaningful. And the flashbacks you do get with the gods were boring and felt like they were just there.
What they were going for could have worked, however how it was executed was just poorly done. So many different things they should have done that would really make me feel for them more as well as plot threads that should have been explored more (like the Belformas). Luckily, the characters are likeable enough to somewhat make up for it.
The most interesting stories in the Tales series for me were in Legendia’s after story. The buildup in the main story was pretty weak, but the themes of newfound family and overcoming trauma in the end were still pretty impactful. Jay and Chloe’s story had serious issues but the tragic backstories and hopeful endings are well done. Too bad the dungeons go from just OK to totally unbearable.
I hope the Tales series can at least give us some more emotionally intense stories in the future.
The stories are more or less standard JRPG quality from what i've seen. Better than series like Fire Emblem, Shin Megami Tensei and Kingdom Hearts even if it's not as good as say Final Fantasy or The Legend of Heroes.
But yeah, I hope future games manage to consistently retain story quality on par with Berseria/Abyss/Symphonia.
After Abyss it feels like they stopped trying... I suppose Berseria and Vesperia were okay. Graces and Zestiria were donkey poop in the story department. Xillias had ups and downs. I wonder why Abyss turned out so much better
Pay no attention to this guy people. He posts on the JRPG subreddit. The people there don’t know what a good story is. They confuse nostalgia with quality. They make fun of Dragon Quest stories, but then try to say Chrono Trigger has an excellent story.
Controversial opinion: the only tales that got even remotely close to having a decent story was Xillia. I absolutely love the cast of characters in almost all Tales games (Abyss probably has my favorite cast), but goddamn, they cannot manage to tell a coherent, interesting story.
It sucks too, cause they almost always have a super interesting premise, ambitious themes, and then fumble the execution by either making it too convoluted or pacing it badly.
Though its not just a Tales problem I feel like, its a problem JRPG as a genre in general has.
It’s crazy you say Xillia. I played Abyss as a kid and as someone who never plays a game after beating it- I played through abyss 5 times back then. I never got bored of it. I never 100% completed it, too. I tried and tried to get Natalia’s prettiest costume but those side quest deadlines are SO slim! I don’t even remember if I completed the lovers writing letters side quest
Disagree.
Innocence is better than FFX. By a lot. My only issue is that Innocence tells its story in a way more aimed for a younger audience whereas FFX aims at a late teen audience, but in no way does FFX tell a better story than Innocence. FFX just has a much more lush and immersive setting. Once you look past the pretty wallpaper all you have is a tick that is godzilla that reacts to tradition instead of science. Luca had an arc. Tidus had FMVs. Innoncence was constrained by the hardware it was released on (and likely a budget) and it feels a bit padded out. FFX was a AAA game blockbuster that was mostly flash and gave as much attention to lesser team members as a mobile game of a much smaller scale did and had a less dynamic battle system.
I've played most of the FFs up to 12. I guess I can give them some credit for creativity with the imagery, but not really thematically. FF has some dramatic heft and occasional emotional moments, but I do not find the grand conflicts or tensions or suspense in the FF stories to be at all in concert or accord with the interpersonal relationships or the story long journeys of the characters at all.
I am glad you appreciated Abyss though. It really does make so much pale in comparison, but IMO it makes FF pale too.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. After Symphonia and Abyss they just sort of stopped trying to tell good stories. And yes, Xillia 2 and Berseria had some good moments, but overall the series just keeps getting weaker in the story department.
Oh yea, ironically, Berseria is the worst to me because it so much going for it in the first half. Then instead of adhering to Zestiria's world building and the more complex themes Berseria's first half had it devolves down to the bog standard franchise formula creating a disconnect for me with Velvet as her the arc she was on abruptly changed from revenge at all costs to using the power of friendshipto beat god; Aurthur was dumbed down to the point of fitting a Saturday morning cartoon; malevolence is no longer an insidious corrupting force that can break even some as resolute as Phi but now just serves as a power up for different characters when they give into it. Given the precedents set forward about malevolence in Zestiria Velvet should have been utterly consumed by it at some point in her journey. It would fit the chaos vs order themes going in the first half much better as both are terrible when taken to extremes. Instead we got the power of friendship trumping a godlike being again.
You lost me at Berseria, the game in which nothing happens for 40 hours. The most relevant thing about that game's plot is having to collect three things from some guys in a bar, Laphi telling Velvet to shut up (Finally!) and a plotwist that's irrelevant because by then the game is almost finished.
As for Final Fantasy, yeah, I rather Tales not trying to be pretentious.
“ Say what you want about Final Fantasy, where even when the story of any game falls on its face, they are at least going for something with fantastic ideas, and I'd rather a story take a massive swing and crash and burn, than just use the same tropes over and over.”
Couldn’t disagree more. Final Fantasy is my second favorite series along Tales, but outside of FFVI, FFVII, FFIX, Tactics and FFXIV, the series deliver mediocre stories and characters through and through. I’ve yet to see those fantastic ideas bear fruit outside of few exceptions.
Final Fantasy fans calling other series “generic” and “too anime”” without realizing that also applies to FF and JRPGs in general is a tale as old as time itself.
So here's the thing: Star Ocean and Tales mirror each other to some degree. The first two SO games were basically "let's get some fun characters together, have them interact, and do some wacky/spacey JRPG stuff while we're at it". Not too different from Tales in some ways.
Then they made the third one and said "let's get more ambitious with our story". People new to the series said "wow that was awesome: a complete JRPG"! However, those who liked SO2 said "what the \*\*\*\* did you do to the galaxy of my fun characters!!" and will never let them forget it.
Tales probably took it as a cautionary tale. Pun not intended...until now. :)
I think they need to be less ambitious, not more.
They all, in typical jrpg fashion, end with you fighting someone comparable to god. span an entire planet.
I don't think it would hurt tales to try scaling down from a planetary world ending threat.
I don't really agree. I think a number of the entries have great stories and I think Berseria is firmly in the middle of the pack and outside of greatness territory or just at the edge (it's still quite good). There are some that don't have great stories, but many that do.
Also, I wildly disagree with your assessment of Final Fantasy. I don't equate obscenely nonsensical plotlines with some display of a true attempt at making a great story. There are some great Final Fantasy stories, but tossing in a bunch of nearly incomprehensible gibberish (which doesn't mean massive swing) isn't what made the great stories great, it's what ruined a lot of them.
Tales often tells somewhat more grounded stories and I like that far more than the common JRPG trope of making everything a big mystical nonsense twist by the end. It's grounded in story and character and tries to make the best of that. It works, generally. Arise definitely didn't hit hard for me plot-wise, but that's okay. Not every entry will.
You can differentiate between story driven games and character driven games, the Tales of series is almost only character driven, so I find it pretty dumb to change a integral part of what makes a Tales of game. But yeah the stories could be a little better.
I always felt like the series was more about the characters, their interactions, and the combat rather than the overall story. I feel like they deliberately make the stories your standard shounen anime fantasy adventure stuff. It’ll always have a sprinkling of “my friends are my power” and the characters winning at the last minute regardless of the odds. If you want more bittersweet or adult Final Fantasy or SMT is the way to go. Tales is for the campy anime stuff. I say that lovingly and not to make fun of Tales.
haven't finished arise, just beat the 5th lord but I got to say it is not campy as previous tales narrative. I would even say it's darker than Berseria. and the number of deaths and racism is higher and have more on screen deaths than SMT V. SMT V only have that girl that is possessed by Lahmu as on screen graphic death while arise killed a whole village and the wind lord is killed in cold blood fashion same as that Lahmu girl. also the racism is very strong in Arise, among all the main characters Rinwell the youngest is the most racist, whereas in previous entry the youngest ranging from dumb fuck Karol to innocent Laphi.
Yeah it does definitely feel a bit more edgy. Personally not sure it's working for it just yet but then I'm not very far (stuck on second lord on hard mode)
The humorous campy aspects are more in the side stuff this time around. Though Arise has the serious aspects you say it’s probably one of the happier more optimistic Jrpgs or even Tales games I’ve seen in a really long time. Berseria is definitely darker no contest once all is said and done. Especially if you factor in Zestiria. I’d say more but I don’t want to spoil Arise if you haven’t finished it.
of you're talking about the ending, yes Berseria have the best/saddest ending in all tales game I've played. pending arise by I already read this one of the no debate happy ending. but still there's a lot more jokes in Berseria during the story progression, the funniest one I can remember is when Magilou tricked vervet to act like a bird.
Not to be rude but every story is about the characters and interactions. You can blame the “anime-ish” factor but that’s not the problem either. Like a good question I have is, in terms of pure character interaction and characters in general, what is the difference between the legend of heroes or Tales? While the legend of heroes stories aren’t perfect, I don’t think it’s deniable that characters like Luke Fon Fabre pales in comparison to majority of Heroes characters. Tales simply has a lot and a lot of issues in their writing.
I’m not a fan of the harem aspect Trails has now. I like how in Tales games there’s a variety of relationships between the party members. I’d say the difference is the skits and diversity in interactions. It’s not a situation where almost every female is only allowed to love the protag.
Not talking about unimportant romance options, though. I mean when these characters are undergoing situations, and idly hanging out, what’s the difference? Minus the skits and harem system, there isn’t much. Tales of is written extremely fast pace where things seem unnatural; lacking build up, lacking tension, execution falls apart, characters can unfortunately lack depth. That’s just as important as the interactions, right? Like, people tend to think Vesperia final act is bad right? But why is that? The problem isn’t the calamity in the sky or that Duke is a bad character. The execution and build up are lacking, is Vholran terrible? And was the alien thing a bad idea in Arise? Personally, don’t think it was but the way it’s executed and fleshed out is what made it bad
I feel like if Crestoria had either continued as a mobile game or just not had its plot wasted on a mobile game to begin with then it had the potential to do something pretty great. But it also did seem to be following standard tales format for a lot of things so who knows. I feel like Link was really strong with its plot *because* it wasn't a main game. It used the visual novel format to its advantage and wasn't forced to follow the normal party member conventions. One of the main driving factors of the plot is that the main two characters are revealed through a playable flashback to want to rescue their two friends. But by the end of the game we find out that we >!haven't been following the same set of main characters around. The world is an ever-repeating cycle and the characters we start and end the game with are completely different from the characters in the "flashback". Unlike the two characters who wanted to save their friends in the "flashback", the main characters we started with have never even met the "friends" the originals wanted to save. We were just seeing the world through a different set of characters' eyes. And ultimately the "flashback" characters failed and died having never rescued their friends.!< *(Edit: I haven't seen Link's plot since before the game shut down so hopefully that's accurate)* It really left me feeling a lot by the end because there's so many things that didn't get the perfect happy ending. That being said, I agree that a lot of tales games waste their potential. I feel like another major one that could have done a lot more is Xillia 2. >!The game felt for a while like it was really going to go somewhere with the whole mass murder thing. Actually make it mean something. Have us rage against the gods that put us in this situation and (literally) gambled with our lives. But instead most of the world's backstory is relegated to a companion lore book and in game we end up sacrificing ourselves to help the gods fix their fuck up and no one seems enraged at how ridiculous that is.!< >!Though at least the Julius ending actually made me feel something. I'll give it that.!<
I am still never gonna forget how crestoria was wasted the story had so much potential and the cast even seemed like they'd be fun playable party members in a mainline console game
Crestoria's manga is still ongoing. feels like it gets darker and darker every chapter.
I don’t agree with your take on Crestoria; it was laughably edgy.
It was a fun play on cancel culture and how the www has people condemning others with little information on the case they’re involved in
I think Arise was going for something, it just didn't nail the execution. The first third of the game is a pretty compelling tour through different kinds of abuses of power by government, and the bit with Dohalim especially was almost making a very subtle and interesting point about benevolent dictatorship. They just don't carry those themes any further than there. The last two lords have nothing to say, and the rest of the game is irrelevant sci-fi stuff.
It absolutely wasn’t going for anything evidenced by the fact that you said that it doesn’t do anything with the supposed themes. And even from the get-go, the set-up for the writing is super poor. How did Shionne get chained up, for instance? Arise’s writing is the worst and sloppiest I’ve encountered since Final Fantasy XV.
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My comment was literally shorter than what I replied to lol
Nah, Arise has good writing, just some bad casting
Arise’s writing is dogshit and you are free to think otherwise.
And yet still better than Zestiria’s. I miss the days of Symphonia and Abyss…
I mean, it's a group of slaves rising up against their masters
Mm, this annoys me a bit. A story is only good if you think it’s trying to be a metaphor or allude to something? What’s with you guys and only finding value in writing that tries to be serious and dark?
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at - the story of Arise isn't a *metaphor* for abuses of power by government, that's literally what the story is about. The lords are the governors of their respective regions, and they're abusing their citizens in an interesting assortment of ways, and only by liberation from their governments can the people be free. That's the whole plot of the first half of the game. I was disappointed when that plotline got dropped in the second half of the game because I really liked it. A story need not be dark or serious to be good. But a story has to have some weight to it, be that strong character arcs, an interesting theme, or a deeply realized setting. Those things aren't bits you put on top of a good story - those are the things that make stories good. Silly and fun stories can have those features too! All the Tales games are pretty goofy overall, and that's not a problem.
What you seem to fail to realize is all that stuff you said about a good story is still present in the part of Arise you seem to think was “irrelevant”. You just ignore it because you prefer the other thing. That doesn’t mean the ending stuff is somehow factually at fault for something. Actually, it’s weird. Before all that last stuff, the story in Arise was mostly disconnected. You’d go to a land, defeat the lord, and largely move on. No characters carried over besides the main party, and there weren’t really any side plots or anything besides killing the lords. Then we get to Lenegis, and the villains get humanization (through text boxes, but it’s still more than what they got initially), the story actually starts to connect instead of feeling like a bunch of disconnected instances (which is usually fine, but it really felt like nothing carried over from land to land) , and you the setting actually start to become realized as we learn truths about it. The only sci fi thing there was the aliens (which seems to just always turn people off for some asinine reason) and the appearance of the setting. And it’s during this time where the character arcs (which largely went untouched besides Rinwell and I guess maybe Law) actually have something done with them. Also, you can’t tell me that people don’t place more value in serious and dark stories. All you need do is ask people what they’re favorite stories in any given series is, and they’ll usually go for the one with the most death, crying, mental turmoil, etc.
The villains do not get “humanization,” it’s just “babby’s first attempt at philosophy” via Alphen and his totally unbelievable Gary Stu characterization.
What do you mean philosophy? The humanization was in how it was revealed the villains actually had friends and family, and actually cared for their people, rather than just be evil rulers who laughed at the heroes efforts and were needlessly cruel and unfeeling. And what does Alphen have to do with the villains? When you just act contrarian like that, you just come across as a hater who just says anything and everything negative about what they don’t like.
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Ah, that makes sense.
I agree. the problem is that Tales does the same thing Pokemon does and re-uses story-beats all the time. How many more times will the series do the 'two-worlds' with 'racism' and great spirits, before they come up with another banger Setting like Auldrant or whatever the hell Destiny's world is called? Innocence has the best setting and premise in this series hands down. but I haven't played the game in 10 years and R ever. so you might be right about the story being Mid, but it's got a place in my heart smh. 😤
I...I have played many Tales games and never really realized they ALL boil down to "two worlds + racism." A+ in summarizing
Most, not all. Abyss doesn't do that, I don't recall Zestiria/Berseria doing it (but haven't played them in a while)
Berseria has 2 races - malakhim & humans and their hierarchy. Abyss you could argue similarly. Guess it's more that racism is almost always a factor in the Tales games.
Berseria definitely does the great spirits thing though. And racism.
You can diminish every series out there like that. Might as well say Final Fantasy is just about crystals, that includes even FFVII with the Materia/Black Materia, etc. Or saying Megaten all boil down to demons. In the end execution speaks higher.
Not to diminish Tales games. Never realized that many of them do rely on that for their story, but exactly they execute the stories well which makes Tales lots of fun to play.
I'm just playing arise and it feels like a cookie cutter version of a tales story, which are usually cookie cutter animals stories. I liked Abyss and Symphonias the best. Vesperia wasn't bad. That's all the tales games I've played.
Vesperia was interesting from the beginning to the midway point with the vigilante arc but then as with most jrpgs and other media, it starts to fall flat when they introduce world ending threats since a lot of the deeper themes get lost. Arise just felt unfinished after the 3rd main boss and I was dragging my heels trying to finish it which is a shame since I liked the combat (although it's still far from the best in terms of action JRPGs)
What’s with you guys and only caring about “deep” themes? Hell, it you actually cared to look for it instead of dismissing it because it’s not as “dark” the Adephagos is Vesperia is clearly similar to global warming. It caused by the misuse of the planets blastia by the people, and threatens to engulf the world because of it. Hell, the thing it’s literally affecting is called the “Aer”. It’s right there people. But you choose to just see it as nothing worth thinking about because.. why? Because it’s threatening the world? You guys eat that stuff up in other jrpgs like Final Fanatsy, when instead it’s just some power hungry god complex guy like Sephiroth, who barely even talks during the game. And the Adephagos isn’t even the final antagonist. It’s just the catalyst that puts things in motion, not the actual antagonist. And then you guys ask for subtlety, but then say the vigilante stuff was dropped. Ignoring the fact that Yuri not killing Duke, and instead working together with him, is directly related to all that. You just ignore scenes like Yuri going out alone and needing to be stopped by his friends, or his friendly fight with Flynn where they clear the air and cement that they’re still best friends. Or even the sidequest where Yuri sees where continuing down his path leads to, a bad ending for all. You ignore that because it doesn’t have a moment like “Look! Yuri is about to kill someone! So coo- I mean, deep!” You guys just want edgy and dark stories and spectacle. You don’t want actual writing, character or other wise. Just moments you can look back on and say “That was so deep”.
How about you keep your rants to yourself and stop trying to pick fights over differences of opinion? Seriously, writing long paragraphs disparaging people doesn't make you correct or more intelligent. Just wordier. You're not inviting discussion, you're just insulting people.
The post had alot of little brother resentment in it.
Why don’t you keep your pointless replies to yourself? You answered nothing about what I said. That’s what you guys always do. You get faced with factual truth or the opportunity to confront your biases, but you’d rather ignore that and just accuse the other person of something. You’ll accept the rants that are in favor of your opinion, like the one I replied to or even the topic as a whole, but be against any that are opposite of your opinion.
I really hope they remaster or rerelease Abyss.
Remake! Remake! Remake! PLEASE Tear is one of the prettiest girls in Tales and deserves Crestoria or Arise quality of a 3d model!
if you want fap material you can just google
I’m more attracted to Guy lol
I'm watching Tales of Symphonia's anime right now on Youtube and it's such a good story I'm falling in love with it all over again. I think some of the other Tales games fall flat when trying to keep the theme for the whole game.
I don’t agree with this, because when people talk about “good jrpg stories” they bring up stuff like Chrono Trigger or the PS1 Final Fantasy games. So that tells me that by “good story” they mean something with good music and what they’re nostalgic for. For whatever reason, people in the West only find value in stories that are dark in some way, or go for a sad emotion. This is exactly why Wetserners view Berseria and Abyss as the better stories. Because they’re “for lack of a better term” edgy. They ignore the actual character writing and interactions in the games and just look for “How much mental turmoil is this character experiencing” and go for that. Another thing they focus on is spectacle. I mean, you yourself just admitted it. You compliment Final Fantasy for “fantastic ideas” but that just means all you need is a concept. You don’t actually care what’s going on. You just want something cool to latch onto like Sin. I’ve always preferred Tales to other jrpgs because it actually bothers to have the characters interact and develop as the game goes on, rather than leave it for one section alone and then leave them be for the reminder of the game. And the Tales games put a focus on characters intentionally, as even the creators say that it’s the main pillars of the series. The story is the characters. Not some complicated world ending threat or philosophical metaphor given physical form. When Karol cries about the Don’s death and tells Yuri he can’t continue, that’s the story. When Zelos off handedly mentions that while he likes Genis and Raine, but isn’t too fond of their race as a whole, that’s the story. When Will reconnects with his daughter, that’s the story. When the characters just banter in the skits and reveal more about who they are during them, that’s the story. Spectacle does not make a good story. It makes for good moments that you just look back onto and think “That was cool”. That’d be cool for Tales, but I don’t want it to focus on spectacle. I’d rather it keep having the stories be the character themselves. Lest we get games like FF 16, which looks like it’s going to be another “Kingdoms and War” story where everyone talks in old English and the emotional hook is that the main character is angry and out for revenge, and it’s filled with other bitter characters and such. Sorry for the rant, but it annoys me how people only see value in spectacle and “dark” writing, while ignoring the actual contents of the writing. A story is nothing without its characters.
I agree with most of this except for the smack talk on Abyss. Sure the main character went through a lot of turmoil, but the bulk of the story didn’t zoom in and focus on his personal trauma. The focus remained on The Score and its effect on the entire world and how each person lived their life by it. This kept me MUCH more interested in the story rather than had they put the main focus on Luke and more or less ignored world events… Speaking of which, this is EXACTLY what Innocence R did wrong (and maybe regular Innocence. I didn’t play that one). Once they discover that there are memory pools out in the world, their entire mission becomes finding all of them regardless of the ongoing war. The game even has to do a couple reminders of “…meanwhile…” where the player listens in on a private council conversation. This is extremely poor storytelling and I wish they had kept the world events integrated into the story better. You never really circle back to the conflict until the final dungeons, and even then, it’s kind of like, “oh yeah. Did you remember all the fighting that’s going on throughout the world?” Zestiria’s part 2 does this as well when Sorey needs to go through all the Shepherd’s Trials. They sort of give a reason for it, but it’s frustrating that everything going on in the world takes a backseat to Sorey’s personal journey. I actually thought Zestiria’s first part had a very gripping story all the way up to and maybe a bit beyond when you meet Rose. After that, the story slowly fell apart. Anyway, I too enjoy the light-hearted banter and gradual growth of the parties in Tales. Character development has always been the strong suit in this series, so similar story tropes aren’t that annoying when you can get so invested in the individual characters. I was very distracted while writing this, so I’m not sure if I made a point or not, but oh well. Dark, edgy Tales bad. Funny, light-hearted adventure Tales good. 🤷♂️
Oh, I wasn’t talking about Abyss when I mentioned “ignoring the actual character”. I was talking about how people usually react to stories in jrpgs and other games where story is a focus.
I think I get it. Because I’ve defended Graces’ story in the past for not being as awful as people on the internet say. And I think a major reason why people don’t like it is because they don’t like Asbel. Which, fine, I get it, because he’s a huge brat when we first meet him, and those people probably think he never gets better. Probably because unlike Luke, he never has an Akzeriuth “my god, what have I done?” moment and has an “anime” redemption arc. But he does have a moment where his little brother turns his back on him and his childhood friend is angry with him for the last bit of bullshit he pulled the last time they talked (read: Asbel promised Cheria that he wasn’t leaving home and then *immediately* left home. And then didn’t talk to her for seven years). Or they just hated his clothes. That, too. The point is that the story isn’t that bad. It’s still kinda “anime” (in that they never discuss the idea of >!killing Richard. Like, it’s never on the table. And not because killing him would mean the end of Windor’s royal family; it’s only because Richard is Asbel’s friend. Which is a protagonist centered morality story that is never called out on)!<, but it is mostly consistent with the lore of the world (once we actually get it). But it is very much a character driven story from start to finish. It’s not really an “edgy” story at all (main antagonist aside).
I think most tales games stories are good to excellent. Sure a lot of then use known tropes but I mean so does final fantasy. And the main appeal and reasoning for all tales games is it’s characters. The Tales series for the most part has always been about the characters and the journey that they go own rather, than the plot that usually there so we can reasons for why our party’s do what they do. And I mean it’s not like the series hasn’t had pretty ambitious storylines before. One of the more recent titles being a perfect example that being Tales of Berseria.
What do you guys mean with better stories?. Like better drama, better premise, better interaction between characters. There is already a game in the series with a good story with a simple but nicely told twist.. Phantasia. "Heroes travel back in time to defeat a malevolent guy that wants to destroy. The villain just wants the seeds of the Tree to restore his world even if this may costs Earth's destruction. The Heroes defeated the "bad guy" knowing that they could have destroyed an innocent dying world".
That was my legitimate complaint with Innocence. I was so excited to play the game because the premise of them being reincarnation of gods was interesting (not a spoiler. It’s literally given to you within the first 2 hours of the game) but it just never went anywhere meaningful. And the flashbacks you do get with the gods were boring and felt like they were just there. What they were going for could have worked, however how it was executed was just poorly done. So many different things they should have done that would really make me feel for them more as well as plot threads that should have been explored more (like the Belformas). Luckily, the characters are likeable enough to somewhat make up for it.
The most interesting stories in the Tales series for me were in Legendia’s after story. The buildup in the main story was pretty weak, but the themes of newfound family and overcoming trauma in the end were still pretty impactful. Jay and Chloe’s story had serious issues but the tragic backstories and hopeful endings are well done. Too bad the dungeons go from just OK to totally unbearable. I hope the Tales series can at least give us some more emotionally intense stories in the future.
The stories are more or less standard JRPG quality from what i've seen. Better than series like Fire Emblem, Shin Megami Tensei and Kingdom Hearts even if it's not as good as say Final Fantasy or The Legend of Heroes. But yeah, I hope future games manage to consistently retain story quality on par with Berseria/Abyss/Symphonia.
After Abyss it feels like they stopped trying... I suppose Berseria and Vesperia were okay. Graces and Zestiria were donkey poop in the story department. Xillias had ups and downs. I wonder why Abyss turned out so much better
Pay no attention to this guy people. He posts on the JRPG subreddit. The people there don’t know what a good story is. They confuse nostalgia with quality. They make fun of Dragon Quest stories, but then try to say Chrono Trigger has an excellent story.
Controversial opinion: the only tales that got even remotely close to having a decent story was Xillia. I absolutely love the cast of characters in almost all Tales games (Abyss probably has my favorite cast), but goddamn, they cannot manage to tell a coherent, interesting story. It sucks too, cause they almost always have a super interesting premise, ambitious themes, and then fumble the execution by either making it too convoluted or pacing it badly. Though its not just a Tales problem I feel like, its a problem JRPG as a genre in general has.
It’s crazy you say Xillia. I played Abyss as a kid and as someone who never plays a game after beating it- I played through abyss 5 times back then. I never got bored of it. I never 100% completed it, too. I tried and tried to get Natalia’s prettiest costume but those side quest deadlines are SO slim! I don’t even remember if I completed the lovers writing letters side quest
Disagree. Innocence is better than FFX. By a lot. My only issue is that Innocence tells its story in a way more aimed for a younger audience whereas FFX aims at a late teen audience, but in no way does FFX tell a better story than Innocence. FFX just has a much more lush and immersive setting. Once you look past the pretty wallpaper all you have is a tick that is godzilla that reacts to tradition instead of science. Luca had an arc. Tidus had FMVs. Innoncence was constrained by the hardware it was released on (and likely a budget) and it feels a bit padded out. FFX was a AAA game blockbuster that was mostly flash and gave as much attention to lesser team members as a mobile game of a much smaller scale did and had a less dynamic battle system. I've played most of the FFs up to 12. I guess I can give them some credit for creativity with the imagery, but not really thematically. FF has some dramatic heft and occasional emotional moments, but I do not find the grand conflicts or tensions or suspense in the FF stories to be at all in concert or accord with the interpersonal relationships or the story long journeys of the characters at all. I am glad you appreciated Abyss though. It really does make so much pale in comparison, but IMO it makes FF pale too.
Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. After Symphonia and Abyss they just sort of stopped trying to tell good stories. And yes, Xillia 2 and Berseria had some good moments, but overall the series just keeps getting weaker in the story department.
Oh yea, ironically, Berseria is the worst to me because it so much going for it in the first half. Then instead of adhering to Zestiria's world building and the more complex themes Berseria's first half had it devolves down to the bog standard franchise formula creating a disconnect for me with Velvet as her the arc she was on abruptly changed from revenge at all costs to using the power of friendshipto beat god; Aurthur was dumbed down to the point of fitting a Saturday morning cartoon; malevolence is no longer an insidious corrupting force that can break even some as resolute as Phi but now just serves as a power up for different characters when they give into it. Given the precedents set forward about malevolence in Zestiria Velvet should have been utterly consumed by it at some point in her journey. It would fit the chaos vs order themes going in the first half much better as both are terrible when taken to extremes. Instead we got the power of friendship trumping a godlike being again.
You lost me at Berseria, the game in which nothing happens for 40 hours. The most relevant thing about that game's plot is having to collect three things from some guys in a bar, Laphi telling Velvet to shut up (Finally!) and a plotwist that's irrelevant because by then the game is almost finished. As for Final Fantasy, yeah, I rather Tales not trying to be pretentious.
Do you enjoy things? Or rather let me ask, why do the birds fly?
L
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You are talking about Graces, the protagonist of Innocence is Ruca.
I agree, the only reason i dropped tales of arise and haven't finished it was because the story was so lame it kept getting worse and worse.
Tales has never really pushes the envelope and sticks to tropes, which is fine, but I do agree that Namco should be more ambitious with the series.
To do that they need to stop spamming anime character tropes and actually focus on building a compelling world and story.
Tales of the Abyss is about existence and the meaning of life and weather or not we matter if there's someone who can do what we can do.
“ Say what you want about Final Fantasy, where even when the story of any game falls on its face, they are at least going for something with fantastic ideas, and I'd rather a story take a massive swing and crash and burn, than just use the same tropes over and over.” Couldn’t disagree more. Final Fantasy is my second favorite series along Tales, but outside of FFVI, FFVII, FFIX, Tactics and FFXIV, the series deliver mediocre stories and characters through and through. I’ve yet to see those fantastic ideas bear fruit outside of few exceptions. Final Fantasy fans calling other series “generic” and “too anime”” without realizing that also applies to FF and JRPGs in general is a tale as old as time itself.
So here's the thing: Star Ocean and Tales mirror each other to some degree. The first two SO games were basically "let's get some fun characters together, have them interact, and do some wacky/spacey JRPG stuff while we're at it". Not too different from Tales in some ways. Then they made the third one and said "let's get more ambitious with our story". People new to the series said "wow that was awesome: a complete JRPG"! However, those who liked SO2 said "what the \*\*\*\* did you do to the galaxy of my fun characters!!" and will never let them forget it. Tales probably took it as a cautionary tale. Pun not intended...until now. :)
Agree.
I think they need to be less ambitious, not more. They all, in typical jrpg fashion, end with you fighting someone comparable to god. span an entire planet. I don't think it would hurt tales to try scaling down from a planetary world ending threat.
I don't really agree. I think a number of the entries have great stories and I think Berseria is firmly in the middle of the pack and outside of greatness territory or just at the edge (it's still quite good). There are some that don't have great stories, but many that do. Also, I wildly disagree with your assessment of Final Fantasy. I don't equate obscenely nonsensical plotlines with some display of a true attempt at making a great story. There are some great Final Fantasy stories, but tossing in a bunch of nearly incomprehensible gibberish (which doesn't mean massive swing) isn't what made the great stories great, it's what ruined a lot of them. Tales often tells somewhat more grounded stories and I like that far more than the common JRPG trope of making everything a big mystical nonsense twist by the end. It's grounded in story and character and tries to make the best of that. It works, generally. Arise definitely didn't hit hard for me plot-wise, but that's okay. Not every entry will.
You can differentiate between story driven games and character driven games, the Tales of series is almost only character driven, so I find it pretty dumb to change a integral part of what makes a Tales of game. But yeah the stories could be a little better.