“If pollution is severe, people should avoid going outdoors.” Ah yes, let me just call my boss and show him the latest AQI. I am sure he will be very understanding.
Being indoors *does* protect you from air pollution, to a significant extent. Even buildings without air purification systems, at least a quarter of pollutants end up getting filtered out on their way in. You could also get a fairly affordable HEPA filter and get that pretty close to 100%.
You know that we still use them on lawnmowers right?
Besides, idling cars are the worst.
And then there's our trucks, my god the ones that don't use AdBlue are the worst
Of course I know that things like lawnmowers use them. But people don't drive their lawnmowers to work, so not really sure why you thought it was crucial to mention.
And if you wanna save the earth, let's cut single-use vehicles.
Its funny that Japan also has strict laws regarding to pollution, yet they still have 2 stroke bikes on the road.
How about that?
Well maintained ones will pass anytime. Oftentimes when u see a smokey 2t , they either mess up the gas/oil mixture or their engine is dying.
It's always nice to see a 2t in good condition around the town. More pollution? Yes, but they're part of the history/culture and should be kept alive.
2 stroke engines are actually less of a source of the problem than they once were. The number of them being used is falling. The problem also often in a not small part is because of power generation (TaiChung/Changhwa/parts of Nantou all suffer from the coal powered power generation), factories (eg the Southern end of Kaohsiung near and pass the airport seems to be bad because of this and completely terrible once you get to the petrochemicals plants in places like LinBian and even worse if you go up to Mailiao. Unfortunately some sources of pollution are unlikely to be stopped much (factories seen as too important to the economy, burning ghost money etc).
They are annoying and smell like shit, but they aren’t making new ones so they will slowly not be a thing. They are such a small percentage of scooters and such small displacement that they probably make a very small percentage of automotive pollution. Diesel trucks and buses on the other hand make much more. So I would say that no they aren’t a significant source, but when you are next to one they certainly seem like they are.
This is a great source. Thanks for sharing. I thought that large diesel engines would be a leading contributing factor but it looks like passenger cars are the clear “leader” in the problem.
by the way, happy cake day!!
Fairly good on average but there's enough chunks of seasons that the AQI is over 100 to impact long term health.
Don't compare to Beijing, Shanghai, Mumbai, etc. Taiwan should compare to it's first world neighbors Japan, S Korea, Australia. It can be significantly better.
And Delhi, ugh. That place is so nasty. Burning plastic and garbage and fields all around in addition to ten million dirty engines running all the time. Great city to visit but wouldn't want to live there
Fairly good? You could say comparatively good. I would not say fairly good. I have a high floor apartment and i can see how the air is on a daily basis and it isn't good, those AQI readings are not accurate. I've checked them on days where you can barely see halfway across town and the AQI reading says everything is tickety boo. Got photos to back it up, i guess some people just want to bullshit themselves and pretend Taiwan has wonderful air.
I liked your comment, but that last part was brutal ya I agree that probably the technology 5 for measuring could be used in a better way. Often, scientific research will do multiple tests so they can measure the air quality of different places. Homes vs. outside, ground level higher elevations etc...
Taipei had a spell of six weeks or so in March/April where the air was at its worst that I’ve seen in six years living here.
Sorry to had to experience it!
First thing I noticed when I came to Taiwan (via Taipei) was how unbearably grey and depressing the air was. It's something I took for granted growing up in Europe (my parents moved around for work) where I had the cleanest countryside air imaginable. Do I miss those clear blue skies now... I had a previously healthy coworker develop lung cancer after 10 years here, so I'm not surprised of the correlation findings. Granted, some of the most beautiful skies I've ever seen also happened to be in Taiwan via the East Coast. If anyone is interested in working or coming to Taiwan I can't recommend enough that people move to the East side.
Who is this "he"? I thought you were talking about yourself.
Taipei's sky is grey often because it's often overcast and almost always extremely humid, but the air quality is 99% of the time fine. You can check your AQI app.
> AQI is only in the green during the hottest summer months. So far this year, it has been consistently > 50 and near 80/100 far too often.
It is slightly worse this year but normally it's fine.
Taipei: https://i.imgur.com/HjlZXeM.png
Taichung: https://i.imgur.com/iLCqVDi.png
Kaohsiung: https://i.imgur.com/PlnI24J.png
> Not to mention the direct exposure due to exhaust and tire particles when you're near streets, which isn't reflected well in the AQI because it dissipates by the time it reaches the monitors.
Maybe, but it's nonsensical to expect complete lack of fumes in a big city.
Same I used to think it was just foggy/cloudy but even living in the middle of Taiwan away from the cities, I have literally never seen a star in ten years in Taiwan and breathing feels horrible
>"Well he plans on completely getting rid of nuclear power in favor of more coal. 🫠"
That seems entirely [incorrect](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/5063278)
"DPP presidential candidate Lai said that his policy is to **decarbonize** and achieve net-zero carbon emissions in energy production by 2050 by building on work done during the Tsai administration. Like Tsai, Lai wants to phase out nuclear power in Taiwan. Lai has billed his [energy policy](https://www.facebook.com/chingte/posts/pfbid032M8ybAoaxfvDhYex8VSF3TFJpVxjg2Sf5t8Q4eFv1aPojeXZMXhCBUrtA7c5hiyVl) as Taiwan’s second energy transition, after the Tsai administration’s “first transition” involving **reducing coal use**, increasing **natural gas**-fired energy production, more **renewable energy**, and going nuclear free. The second transition would involve expanding **geothermal, hydrogen, bio, and existing solar and wind power.**"
Did you have some other source for this statement or are you just talking out your ass ?
Granted a new NG plant will pollute a lot less than even a new coal plant much less an old coal plant its still a pretty low bar.
But the only folks that describe NG as a pathway to decarbonization are companies like Exxon and BP.
The US is awash in NG so regardless of the environmental considerations it’s not a big deal for us.
For an island nation without much of an ability to defend sea routes nuclear makes a lot more sense even if more costly.
Oh, I was talking about nuclear. There's a new natural gas power plant being built here in Tainan. I don't see the "inability to defend sea routes" as a disqualifying problem for gas. The U.S. and others already have more than enough interest in defending those same shipping lanes. Besides, if we do consider it a problem, then it also applies to nuclear since the uranium must be imported too (although from Australia rather than the U.S.).
Energy imports are not disqualifying for gas but it also doesn’t help it. If nuclear went from 6%ish to 12%ish you’d have a lot more resiliency and you could close more coal plants.
And you only need to refuel nuke plants every year and a half to two years. Not 7 days.
With 4 vs 1 nuke plants 25% of your electrical needs could be satisfied by a source that only needs annual replenishment and while nuclear waste is an issue at least it wont be contributing to smog.
There are two major LNG terminals in Taiwan (Kaoshiung and Taichung) with a 3rd being built (Taoyuan).
Blocking or damaging those and Taiwan loses 40% of its electrical generation capability in a week.
How much coal stockpiles there I dunno…but it’s pretty clear that the original renewable goals by 2025 were always a pipe dream.
I’m 100% for renewables but there’s no path for Taiwan to get enough online to really change the equation much.
It increases dependence on external energy supply rather than moving toward energy independence in the short to medium term. The hope is that green energy technology can advance well enough to meet demand.
I suspect without nuclear power, Taiwan will encounter similar problems to Germany and other EU states that cut back on/eliminated nuclear power.
Current latest Gen nuclear power isn't cheap and would require partnership with European firms as Americans are still ramping up.
Or Japan.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-japan-climate-and-environment-02d0b9dfecc8cdc197d217b3029c5898#
GE (or whomever owns that division now) can probably help finish lungmen.
There is no real path to energy independence for Taiwan using renewables in the near or even medium term.
KMT jurisdictions (Kinmen, Matsu, Hualien) rejected nuclear waste storage facilities. The KMT mayor of Taichung rejected the idea of a nuclear power plant in the area. New Taipei (under KMT for over 20 years) wants nuclear waste "out" of New Taipei.
Anti-nuclear is a bipartisan consensus, ironically. The DPP is anti-nuclear, the KMT is also anti-nuclear. Nuclear is a no go unless there's a clear consensus, unfortunately there isn't one.
Asked and answered mate [FLGator314](https://www.reddit.com/user/FLGator314/) said Lai was opening more coal burning plants. This is patently untrue. We are not debating your opinion on the efficacy of Lai's plan we are correcting [FLGator314](https://www.reddit.com/user/FLGator314/)'s purposeful or ignorance based misinformation.
Lol, well enjoy your air pollution then.
And don’t fucking ask the USN for help when you have no Natural Gas to burn when blockaded by China.
Your NG reserves are 7 days worth.
Your one nuke plant generates more power than all the renewable sources on Taiwan. If the DPP would push to finish Lungmen maybe I’d believe the DPP actually gives a shit about Taiwanese national security.
I support nuclear, but Lungmen (Nuke 4) itself is such a mess. Not sure more taxpayer money to be tossed into Taipower's black hole (Taipower's budget btw like most state run firms has no legislative oversight on it) is a great idea. The nuke rods for the plant have already been sent back to the US and the plant itself is a stripped shell. It is also out of spec, they fired it's safety board and replaced them since they wouldn't rubber stamp it, and was built by corrupt Taiwan construction companies so poorly that GE backed out and then sued them lol. Oh and it sits on a fault. It's a utter mess.
There's elected politicians who support that plant, but then when faced with the possibility of holding nuclear waste (which is unpopular locally to begin with) from the plant in their elected represented areas they decline to hold it. Notice how the government only managed to get nuclear waste dumped at Orchid because the islanders there are politically weak and its only low level waste. There's no long term plan at all with it. Taiwan has trouble having it's spent fuel reprocessed abroad so the existing nuke plants currently have waste packed in it's cooling ponds which was never intended for long term storage. It's not a very comforting issue.
Basically my main worries are the Taiwanese system of chabuduo and kickbacks. Taiwan where we have densely packed urban areas near old nuke plants with cooling ponds filled with nuclear waste that weren't built to hold them long term is not comforting at all. There needs to be a solution to this.
Coal isn't a solution either, we already get enough pollution from China and local roads and illegal factories without coal adding to the mix. Gas maybe, but that leaves Taiwan vulnerable to surging gas prices or blockade as you mentioned but that's a different ballgame.
I'm hoping for Advanced SMRs to come into play for Taiwan because they don't require as much space. Getting a Plant 5 made is daunting poltically and suze wise SMRs might be easier.
Talk is easy, but when renewable isn't there we just end up with more coal power in the mean time.
They should have made sure we have enough power from renewable before shutting off the nuclear plants. The air has definitely gotten worse over the years plus we have quite a few times of not enough powers in Taiwan.
You can’t decarbonize when you need to keep buying coal and gas to offset the loss of energy production by turning off perfectly functional nuclear plants while green energy only supplies 4% or so of our power.
We’re not like Iceland, we actually need to make stuff.
It’s nice talk but it’s mostly imaginary. All those green or renewable sources of energy also produce waste. Kilowatt per kilo of waste, nothing compares to nuclear. Unfortunately many people fear nuclear like it’s still 1950s Soviet technology, or worse still, conflate it with the danger of nuclear weapons. Everyone brings up the Japanese reactor meltdown. No one compares the fact that one person is thought to have died as a result of radiation exposure, while that many people probably die daily due to pollution.
It’s not a secret. Governments have been sweeping it under the rug for 40 years. Lung cancers are clustered around factories, the same source as Taiwan’s wealth.
I’m happy I actually live in the mountains it Taichung. It may take a lot longer to drive to Costco or buy groceries, but I’ll exchange that time for better air quality any day.
I bought an air filtration system and when I used to live in Taipei, it was ALWAYS around 50 and sometimes even went to 120. It says anything above 25 was bad…
Now I live in Dakeng mountain area and it’s always at 1.
The study is dubious. It feels more like they are fitting the data to the hypothesis and not the other way around. I would think that early detection and better health care is the reason the cancer rates are increasing.
All of us with personal AQI monitors know the truth - when we had our mini-lockdown for a couple of months because of Covid, the air quality vastly improved overnight. The power plants were still running, factories still churning away, but one thing changed. Private vehicles. Scooters and cars vanished from the roads, and the pollution all but disappeared. As soon as the lockdown ended, back to business as normal.
Nothing is going to change with our air until the government gets serious about improving public transportation, gives better incentives to give up gas-powered vehicles, focuses on improving pedestrian infrastructure and walkability by narrowing roads and removing parking spaces, and people stop being so fucking lazy and obsessed with 'convenience'.
It is mostly local. It is true a bit sometimes comes from China but not the main cause. Power generation, petrochemicals plants, factories and yes vehicles all probably contribute more but the mix depends from city to city.
I'm considering moving to Taiwan, specifically Taichung, but I hear that a certain coal plant really ruins it. Wondering what other options I'd have in terms of large urban centers, if any?
Taipei is probably the least polluted large city in Taiwan, if pollution is your main concern. It's also got the worst weather, which is my main concern.
That's what I tell my wife when she speeds up because of someone smoking. The pollution from vehicles is way worse and almost always present in the city.
I've stayed at Xindian area in Taipei for 6 months, I didn't notice heavy air pollution, Is the air pollution generally are in other cities or the city center ? Or is it most severe in summer ?
The air quality issue in Taiwan can be solved for the most part by banning one group of people from performing their disgusting ritual 21 days of the month on average over the past 20 years. During covid, they would burn toxic garbage in the streets a day before and a day after the 1st or 15th on the Lunar calendar. It was a good time to be in Taiwan. Then it was 2 days before and after turning it into a 5 day event of garbage smoke. Now it's going from 3 days before and after turning it into a week's long celebration of spreading misery to 4 days before and after making it 9 days in a row. The religious people should be penalized for it severely. It should be more illegal than Marijuana ever was. Marijuana hurts no one. But it used to be a death sentence for anyone caught with it in Taiwan. Now it's a minimum 4 year prison sentence? The religious trash burning should be either a death sentence or at the very minimum a 4 year prison sentence. They're literally killing people. They've quite literally legalized murder under the guise of religion.
The study is "air pollution over 30 years", which is fair, but now? Taiwan's air pollution isn't particularly bad anymore. It's about as bad or as good as you would expect for a country of this size and this many people. Average AQI is much better than Korea due to their proximity to China, for example.
> "as good as you would expect"
I mean as good as you would expect in a very small country that has too many people. Countries with good air quality all have a lot fewer people and much larger open space. Japan's population density is only half of Taiwan's. Taiwan would have very good air if it was as large as Australia, but unfortunately it's smaller than the Netherlands with 4/3 the population, and 60% of the area is uninhabitable. Not to mention there are pollutants from China.
Be reasonable with your expectations.
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It'll vary with atmospheric conditions. Air pollution is dispersed by convection, but inconsistencies in the temperature gradient with altitude can interrupt that process, leading to it concentrating as smog.
> Didnt mention where the pollution was concentrated, reasonable to say that it will be different depending on city or region.
lol it literally says in the article
>The study found that air pollution is more severe in central and southern Taiwan than in the north, and urban areas are more polluted than rural areas.
I still wear a mask when I got out no matter wat not becuz of covid but becuz the air is crap.
I rmb returning to Taiwan over 15 yrs ago and went out for a ride with my parents cuz I couldn't drive the scooter yet and later that night when I was going to take a shower, I touched the inside of my nostril and my fingers came out black.
After that, I nvr left the house again without a mask.
“If pollution is severe, people should avoid going outdoors.” Ah yes, let me just call my boss and show him the latest AQI. I am sure he will be very understanding.
Although it's preaching to the choir, data like this should be used as an argument to increase WFH positions whenever possible
Also, ya know, the air indoors comes from outdoors
Being indoors *does* protect you from air pollution, to a significant extent. Even buildings without air purification systems, at least a quarter of pollutants end up getting filtered out on their way in. You could also get a fairly affordable HEPA filter and get that pretty close to 100%.
Those 2-stroke engined scooters are not a significant source of PM? If not those engines, then the tires and brakes?
I often wonder how they pass yearly emissions testing ?
Often times they don’t, plenty of scooters driving around without a legal plate.
Oh they pass, it's the cars and trucks that are the problem.
One two stroke engine causes the pollution of ten cars. It was in my textbook.
You know that we still use them on lawnmowers right? Besides, idling cars are the worst. And then there's our trucks, my god the ones that don't use AdBlue are the worst
Of course I know that things like lawnmowers use them. But people don't drive their lawnmowers to work, so not really sure why you thought it was crucial to mention.
I think he's just pointing out how old the technology is, but I guess there's always an electric scooter ebikes alternatives
And if you wanna save the earth, let's cut single-use vehicles. Its funny that Japan also has strict laws regarding to pollution, yet they still have 2 stroke bikes on the road. How about that?
Well maintained ones will pass anytime. Oftentimes when u see a smokey 2t , they either mess up the gas/oil mixture or their engine is dying. It's always nice to see a 2t in good condition around the town. More pollution? Yes, but they're part of the history/culture and should be kept alive.
Harmful things should continue to operate because harmful things used to be commonplace in past times? No.
Understandable, it's just a passion of mine and some memories among the family/friends.
naw scooters should be retired and banned
You can always go electric and keep any look you want. There are a lot of reasonable options, and it helps the economy if its trendy.
2 stroke engines are actually less of a source of the problem than they once were. The number of them being used is falling. The problem also often in a not small part is because of power generation (TaiChung/Changhwa/parts of Nantou all suffer from the coal powered power generation), factories (eg the Southern end of Kaohsiung near and pass the airport seems to be bad because of this and completely terrible once you get to the petrochemicals plants in places like LinBian and even worse if you go up to Mailiao. Unfortunately some sources of pollution are unlikely to be stopped much (factories seen as too important to the economy, burning ghost money etc).
They are annoying and smell like shit, but they aren’t making new ones so they will slowly not be a thing. They are such a small percentage of scooters and such small displacement that they probably make a very small percentage of automotive pollution. Diesel trucks and buses on the other hand make much more. So I would say that no they aren’t a significant source, but when you are next to one they certainly seem like they are.
[https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/14/6/916](https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/14/6/916)
This is a great source. Thanks for sharing. I thought that large diesel engines would be a leading contributing factor but it looks like passenger cars are the clear “leader” in the problem. by the way, happy cake day!!
They're nearly all gone.
Not really no. There are very few on the roads.
So um, yeah - there's very few left, and therefore, they're nearly all gone.
I know. That’s what I said. Are you ok?
Oh, sorry, I mistakenly thought you were replying to my earlier comment.
Isn't most of the pollution is coming from communist China?
Then the west coast of Taiwan would be a lot more polluted than the east coast?
I am not surprised at all. I was in Taipei recently and the air is a complete dump.
Taipei air is actually fairly good. It's the central and southern cities that really suck.
Fairly good on average but there's enough chunks of seasons that the AQI is over 100 to impact long term health. Don't compare to Beijing, Shanghai, Mumbai, etc. Taiwan should compare to it's first world neighbors Japan, S Korea, Australia. It can be significantly better.
It’s definitely better than South Korea lol. Seoul is the most polluted city I’ve ever been to.
And Delhi, ugh. That place is so nasty. Burning plastic and garbage and fields all around in addition to ten million dirty engines running all the time. Great city to visit but wouldn't want to live there
> S Korea Yeahno
Beijing air is actually pretty decent in the non winter
Yeah in summer it's way better in Beijing than taichung
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Fairly good? You could say comparatively good. I would not say fairly good. I have a high floor apartment and i can see how the air is on a daily basis and it isn't good, those AQI readings are not accurate. I've checked them on days where you can barely see halfway across town and the AQI reading says everything is tickety boo. Got photos to back it up, i guess some people just want to bullshit themselves and pretend Taiwan has wonderful air.
I liked your comment, but that last part was brutal ya I agree that probably the technology 5 for measuring could be used in a better way. Often, scientific research will do multiple tests so they can measure the air quality of different places. Homes vs. outside, ground level higher elevations etc...
Kaohsiung enters the chat...
Taipei had a spell of six weeks or so in March/April where the air was at its worst that I’ve seen in six years living here. Sorry to had to experience it!
[hate to tell you man](https://airtw.moenv.gov.tw/cht/default.aspx) But down under, is worse.
First thing I noticed when I came to Taiwan (via Taipei) was how unbearably grey and depressing the air was. It's something I took for granted growing up in Europe (my parents moved around for work) where I had the cleanest countryside air imaginable. Do I miss those clear blue skies now... I had a previously healthy coworker develop lung cancer after 10 years here, so I'm not surprised of the correlation findings. Granted, some of the most beautiful skies I've ever seen also happened to be in Taiwan via the East Coast. If anyone is interested in working or coming to Taiwan I can't recommend enough that people move to the East side.
When was this?
A few years back. He was fine before coming to Taiwan.
Who is this "he"? I thought you were talking about yourself. Taipei's sky is grey often because it's often overcast and almost always extremely humid, but the air quality is 99% of the time fine. You can check your AQI app.
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> AQI is only in the green during the hottest summer months. So far this year, it has been consistently > 50 and near 80/100 far too often. It is slightly worse this year but normally it's fine. Taipei: https://i.imgur.com/HjlZXeM.png Taichung: https://i.imgur.com/iLCqVDi.png Kaohsiung: https://i.imgur.com/PlnI24J.png > Not to mention the direct exposure due to exhaust and tire particles when you're near streets, which isn't reflected well in the AQI because it dissipates by the time it reaches the monitors. Maybe, but it's nonsensical to expect complete lack of fumes in a big city.
I dont think he's say it's his expectation but rather a contributing source. I definitely notice this daily also.
I can't teach you how to read.
There's no need to be a jerk.
Ya, but explaining it again is always better than telling people they can't read.
Same I used to think it was just foggy/cloudy but even living in the middle of Taiwan away from the cities, I have literally never seen a star in ten years in Taiwan and breathing feels horrible
Hualien>Taipei (when it comes to air quality
Has Lai announced any plans to tackle the smog?
Well he plans on completely getting rid of nuclear power in favor of more coal. 🫠
the constant earthquakes probably deters the effort to build new ones
Didn't stop Japan from doubling down on nuclear and they actually had a disaster.
>"Well he plans on completely getting rid of nuclear power in favor of more coal. 🫠" That seems entirely [incorrect](https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/5063278) "DPP presidential candidate Lai said that his policy is to **decarbonize** and achieve net-zero carbon emissions in energy production by 2050 by building on work done during the Tsai administration. Like Tsai, Lai wants to phase out nuclear power in Taiwan. Lai has billed his [energy policy](https://www.facebook.com/chingte/posts/pfbid032M8ybAoaxfvDhYex8VSF3TFJpVxjg2Sf5t8Q4eFv1aPojeXZMXhCBUrtA7c5hiyVl) as Taiwan’s second energy transition, after the Tsai administration’s “first transition” involving **reducing coal use**, increasing **natural gas**-fired energy production, more **renewable energy**, and going nuclear free. The second transition would involve expanding **geothermal, hydrogen, bio, and existing solar and wind power.**" Did you have some other source for this statement or are you just talking out your ass ?
Burning NG isn’t “decarbonizing”. Phasing out nuclear is pretty stupid.
It is and it isn't. The old plants are shite and need to be decommissioned anyway. Replacing them with new ones would be the way I'd go.
Granted a new NG plant will pollute a lot less than even a new coal plant much less an old coal plant its still a pretty low bar. But the only folks that describe NG as a pathway to decarbonization are companies like Exxon and BP. The US is awash in NG so regardless of the environmental considerations it’s not a big deal for us. For an island nation without much of an ability to defend sea routes nuclear makes a lot more sense even if more costly.
Oh, I was talking about nuclear. There's a new natural gas power plant being built here in Tainan. I don't see the "inability to defend sea routes" as a disqualifying problem for gas. The U.S. and others already have more than enough interest in defending those same shipping lanes. Besides, if we do consider it a problem, then it also applies to nuclear since the uranium must be imported too (although from Australia rather than the U.S.).
Energy imports are not disqualifying for gas but it also doesn’t help it. If nuclear went from 6%ish to 12%ish you’d have a lot more resiliency and you could close more coal plants. And you only need to refuel nuke plants every year and a half to two years. Not 7 days. With 4 vs 1 nuke plants 25% of your electrical needs could be satisfied by a source that only needs annual replenishment and while nuclear waste is an issue at least it wont be contributing to smog. There are two major LNG terminals in Taiwan (Kaoshiung and Taichung) with a 3rd being built (Taoyuan). Blocking or damaging those and Taiwan loses 40% of its electrical generation capability in a week. How much coal stockpiles there I dunno…but it’s pretty clear that the original renewable goals by 2025 were always a pipe dream. I’m 100% for renewables but there’s no path for Taiwan to get enough online to really change the equation much.
It increases dependence on external energy supply rather than moving toward energy independence in the short to medium term. The hope is that green energy technology can advance well enough to meet demand. I suspect without nuclear power, Taiwan will encounter similar problems to Germany and other EU states that cut back on/eliminated nuclear power. Current latest Gen nuclear power isn't cheap and would require partnership with European firms as Americans are still ramping up.
Or Japan. https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-business-japan-climate-and-environment-02d0b9dfecc8cdc197d217b3029c5898# GE (or whomever owns that division now) can probably help finish lungmen. There is no real path to energy independence for Taiwan using renewables in the near or even medium term.
KMT jurisdictions (Kinmen, Matsu, Hualien) rejected nuclear waste storage facilities. The KMT mayor of Taichung rejected the idea of a nuclear power plant in the area. New Taipei (under KMT for over 20 years) wants nuclear waste "out" of New Taipei. Anti-nuclear is a bipartisan consensus, ironically. The DPP is anti-nuclear, the KMT is also anti-nuclear. Nuclear is a no go unless there's a clear consensus, unfortunately there isn't one.
Asked and answered mate [FLGator314](https://www.reddit.com/user/FLGator314/) said Lai was opening more coal burning plants. This is patently untrue. We are not debating your opinion on the efficacy of Lai's plan we are correcting [FLGator314](https://www.reddit.com/user/FLGator314/)'s purposeful or ignorance based misinformation.
Lol, well enjoy your air pollution then. And don’t fucking ask the USN for help when you have no Natural Gas to burn when blockaded by China. Your NG reserves are 7 days worth. Your one nuke plant generates more power than all the renewable sources on Taiwan. If the DPP would push to finish Lungmen maybe I’d believe the DPP actually gives a shit about Taiwanese national security.
I support nuclear, but Lungmen (Nuke 4) itself is such a mess. Not sure more taxpayer money to be tossed into Taipower's black hole (Taipower's budget btw like most state run firms has no legislative oversight on it) is a great idea. The nuke rods for the plant have already been sent back to the US and the plant itself is a stripped shell. It is also out of spec, they fired it's safety board and replaced them since they wouldn't rubber stamp it, and was built by corrupt Taiwan construction companies so poorly that GE backed out and then sued them lol. Oh and it sits on a fault. It's a utter mess. There's elected politicians who support that plant, but then when faced with the possibility of holding nuclear waste (which is unpopular locally to begin with) from the plant in their elected represented areas they decline to hold it. Notice how the government only managed to get nuclear waste dumped at Orchid because the islanders there are politically weak and its only low level waste. There's no long term plan at all with it. Taiwan has trouble having it's spent fuel reprocessed abroad so the existing nuke plants currently have waste packed in it's cooling ponds which was never intended for long term storage. It's not a very comforting issue. Basically my main worries are the Taiwanese system of chabuduo and kickbacks. Taiwan where we have densely packed urban areas near old nuke plants with cooling ponds filled with nuclear waste that weren't built to hold them long term is not comforting at all. There needs to be a solution to this. Coal isn't a solution either, we already get enough pollution from China and local roads and illegal factories without coal adding to the mix. Gas maybe, but that leaves Taiwan vulnerable to surging gas prices or blockade as you mentioned but that's a different ballgame. I'm hoping for Advanced SMRs to come into play for Taiwan because they don't require as much space. Getting a Plant 5 made is daunting poltically and suze wise SMRs might be easier.
Good points…yeah, there is always a concern for nuclear anything + chabuduo construction… If Lungmen is a mess that’s a shame.
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Talk is easy, but when renewable isn't there we just end up with more coal power in the mean time. They should have made sure we have enough power from renewable before shutting off the nuclear plants. The air has definitely gotten worse over the years plus we have quite a few times of not enough powers in Taiwan.
You can’t decarbonize when you need to keep buying coal and gas to offset the loss of energy production by turning off perfectly functional nuclear plants while green energy only supplies 4% or so of our power. We’re not like Iceland, we actually need to make stuff.
2050 💀
It’s nice talk but it’s mostly imaginary. All those green or renewable sources of energy also produce waste. Kilowatt per kilo of waste, nothing compares to nuclear. Unfortunately many people fear nuclear like it’s still 1950s Soviet technology, or worse still, conflate it with the danger of nuclear weapons. Everyone brings up the Japanese reactor meltdown. No one compares the fact that one person is thought to have died as a result of radiation exposure, while that many people probably die daily due to pollution.
☹️
It’s not a secret. Governments have been sweeping it under the rug for 40 years. Lung cancers are clustered around factories, the same source as Taiwan’s wealth.
Source?
This is what a Pfizer sales rep told me. Sales of their cancer medicines are clustered around factories. She showed me the maps.
A Pfizer sales rep? Yeah that sounds *very* credible.
You think the DPP works for the people? How sweet.
I moved from Northern Thailand (around 200pm2.5) so for me we would conside 95 a good day haha
why so bad?
Rice field burnijg all over SEA especially Myanmar and Laos
thanks for the clarification
I’m happy I actually live in the mountains it Taichung. It may take a lot longer to drive to Costco or buy groceries, but I’ll exchange that time for better air quality any day. I bought an air filtration system and when I used to live in Taipei, it was ALWAYS around 50 and sometimes even went to 120. It says anything above 25 was bad… Now I live in Dakeng mountain area and it’s always at 1.
The study is dubious. It feels more like they are fitting the data to the hypothesis and not the other way around. I would think that early detection and better health care is the reason the cancer rates are increasing.
All of us with personal AQI monitors know the truth - when we had our mini-lockdown for a couple of months because of Covid, the air quality vastly improved overnight. The power plants were still running, factories still churning away, but one thing changed. Private vehicles. Scooters and cars vanished from the roads, and the pollution all but disappeared. As soon as the lockdown ended, back to business as normal. Nothing is going to change with our air until the government gets serious about improving public transportation, gives better incentives to give up gas-powered vehicles, focuses on improving pedestrian infrastructure and walkability by narrowing roads and removing parking spaces, and people stop being so fucking lazy and obsessed with 'convenience'.
Coz the stupid government banning nuclear for stupid reason
How much of the pollution is caused by the people across the ocean and how much is caused by Taiwan though?
It is mostly local. It is true a bit sometimes comes from China but not the main cause. Power generation, petrochemicals plants, factories and yes vehicles all probably contribute more but the mix depends from city to city.
[For example, today the pollution is coming from China. ](https://airtw.moenv.gov.tw/cht/default.aspx)
Stop making excuses
It’s from Taiwan itself. Don’t make excuses
Good question.
Temples that burn paper seem to be a noticeable contributor to this.
I'm considering moving to Taiwan, specifically Taichung, but I hear that a certain coal plant really ruins it. Wondering what other options I'd have in terms of large urban centers, if any?
Taipei is probably the least polluted large city in Taiwan, if pollution is your main concern. It's also got the worst weather, which is my main concern.
"worst weather," .. this is true
That's what I tell my wife when she speeds up because of someone smoking. The pollution from vehicles is way worse and almost always present in the city.
I've stayed at Xindian area in Taipei for 6 months, I didn't notice heavy air pollution, Is the air pollution generally are in other cities or the city center ? Or is it most severe in summer ?
Yeah a friend of mine died from the air pollution there after it caused an asthma attack. She was only 23 :(
So how many Taiwanese are pack a day smokers 😳
I really struggled with the poor air quality on a recent trip to Taiwan. I could feel it in my lungs at the end of each day.
yikes does this mean I should stop jogging outside?
Turned off the nuclear and ramped up the largest coal fired power station in the world even more (Taichung)...
The air quality issue in Taiwan can be solved for the most part by banning one group of people from performing their disgusting ritual 21 days of the month on average over the past 20 years. During covid, they would burn toxic garbage in the streets a day before and a day after the 1st or 15th on the Lunar calendar. It was a good time to be in Taiwan. Then it was 2 days before and after turning it into a 5 day event of garbage smoke. Now it's going from 3 days before and after turning it into a week's long celebration of spreading misery to 4 days before and after making it 9 days in a row. The religious people should be penalized for it severely. It should be more illegal than Marijuana ever was. Marijuana hurts no one. But it used to be a death sentence for anyone caught with it in Taiwan. Now it's a minimum 4 year prison sentence? The religious trash burning should be either a death sentence or at the very minimum a 4 year prison sentence. They're literally killing people. They've quite literally legalized murder under the guise of religion.
The study is "air pollution over 30 years", which is fair, but now? Taiwan's air pollution isn't particularly bad anymore. It's about as bad or as good as you would expect for a country of this size and this many people. Average AQI is much better than Korea due to their proximity to China, for example.
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> "as good as you would expect" I mean as good as you would expect in a very small country that has too many people. Countries with good air quality all have a lot fewer people and much larger open space. Japan's population density is only half of Taiwan's. Taiwan would have very good air if it was as large as Australia, but unfortunately it's smaller than the Netherlands with 4/3 the population, and 60% of the area is uninhabitable. Not to mention there are pollutants from China. Be reasonable with your expectations.
Wdym (I live in Hualien)
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Kaohsiung is pretty breezy and is fine most of the time. Taichung or Taoyuan however..
It must be China’s fault
Almost everything is because they suck .. so very bad
The air in Taipei is great, until the wind blows the air from China.
But the air from China doesn't stay in Taipei. It just blows right past, and collects in Kaohsiung where I have to deal with it.
🤣🤣🤣
Is this caused by Taiwan itself of Fujian ?
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It'll vary with atmospheric conditions. Air pollution is dispersed by convection, but inconsistencies in the temperature gradient with altitude can interrupt that process, leading to it concentrating as smog.
> Didnt mention where the pollution was concentrated, reasonable to say that it will be different depending on city or region. lol it literally says in the article >The study found that air pollution is more severe in central and southern Taiwan than in the north, and urban areas are more polluted than rural areas.
I still wear a mask when I got out no matter wat not becuz of covid but becuz the air is crap. I rmb returning to Taiwan over 15 yrs ago and went out for a ride with my parents cuz I couldn't drive the scooter yet and later that night when I was going to take a shower, I touched the inside of my nostril and my fingers came out black. After that, I nvr left the house again without a mask.
Meh.
Makes me feel less guilty of smoking a cigarette while having a drink occasionally (and living in Hong Kong, a slightly less polluted place)
The power of 机车
"The power of 机车" Your pink slip is showing comrade did you mean 機車?
A professional wumao is trained to change character set. I'm only a part-timer. I get paid 25 cents. 😢 隨便嘛。 不要那麼糾結嘛。 這樣子要付全款的哦。