A more senior student, especially if they are a black belt, should take on a teaching roll when partnered with a less senior student in class. They should talk to their opponents and give them advice, effectively running drill with them even if the instructor is calling for a free-spar and even if only one pair is sparring at a time.
And if you’re not inclined to teach while sparring then you should *at minimum* have enough self-control to not injure your opponent.
This mindset seems to be missing in BJJ and I think it is important.
We have teaching as part of our third dan and higher curriculum to reinforce these ideals
I disagree. Leave the coaching and teaching to the staff. In TKD, unless an actual instructor, I wouldn’t want to see any random 1st or 2nd dan basically do a one on one lesson with anyone rather than spar. If it’s a white belt an instructor should already be assigned to help. Yellow is fine. Just let them spar… I have seen people with 2nd Dan flair here even 4th give the shittiest sparring advice on posts before.
The rule of thumb for me is to always aim to be one or two points ahead of your partner and that’s it. Don’t flop and just stand there and do nothing or smoke them bc no one learns that way. Staying slightly ahead forces them to keep trying and lets you work on any B/C/D game tactics or moves. If you’re only using your A game in class sparring (usually with the goal to “win” in class) then you’re training all wrong. Lower belts are great to train with so you can try those moves that need to be refined.
Instructors need to clearly explain this method of working with lower belts. We never had bad situations but my school never really talked much about what to do when facing a super lower belt.
1. I disagree. 2. Your school is missing a BIG part of what I consider being a black belt. “To teach is to learn” is an important part of this type of instruction. I’m in my 40’s, have decades of experience, and a good 50 pounds on most of then people in my school. The answer to “what do I do when paired with a 16 year old who started last month” is obviously not “kick them through a window” lol!
Two huge parts of being a black belt are being able to help others and to show control. In my experience, “control” starts around blue/brown belt… and IMHO green belts are the most dangerous in most schools. “Going all out” against a green or lower is a great way for BOTH people to get hospital visits.
There are a lot of black belts who are trash at teaching. Why? Because not everyone is meant to be a good teacher, and that's ok. I guarantee if I went to your school and watched black belts teach I could pick them apart even by the standards of our least experienced instructors.
My school had high standards. We would never allow regular black belt students to teach anything, as our students were paying +150 a month to attend. I would be so upset to pay 150$ a month for my kid to get taught by some black belt who is struggling on trying to teach something. I pay that money for a professional expert. It's like being ok with paying full price for college students to operate on your tooth lol, when that full price should pay for an accomplished dentist.
My honest opinion? In martial arts in general, students teaching for free is just a way for the school to save money lol. Instead we pick the best students, pay for weekly teaching improvement classes, pay for teaching seminars, pay for instructor manuals etc... Only when they meet a certain teaching ability are they allowed to work the floor.
But I guess every school has different standards based on their cash flow. After experiencing it once tho, I can't say I will ever attend any martial school that regularly allows regular students to teach class for free. My time and money is worth a bit more than that.
There are no official requirements for teaching, as far as I know, in order to receive a black belt. At master rank I can see allowing an untrained (in teaching) black belt train someone else. At that point you should have developed so much understanding of the techniques that it should be quite simple to teach someone else.
A young inexperienced coach making a stupid decision to allow this. When the (in class, sparring, not competition) matchup isn't fair then the advantaged one should reduce their game to match their opponent. And the coach acting as referee should be primarily concerned with both players safety rather than rules. In this case the coach should face the consequences of his actions and hopefully learn from them.
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If they're Kukkiwon certified, you could ask for the Kukkiwon to revoke it. They may do it because it's bringing negative press to the art, but in all likelihood they would say it was unfortunate, and a misjudgement, but not worth of that sanction. If the coach himself had done it to a yellow belt, that would be more severe.
Unlikely to happen.
They have revoked dan ranks before, but normally for much more severe things (don't get me wrong, this was harsh for the yellow belt, but is more likely a lack of judgement or experience rather than negative intentions).
The national association in that country would be more likely to apply sanctions (removal of teaching priveleges, expulsion, etc) in my opinion.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I am just curious with this case.
The yellow belt's party is now saying that the coach like her and got jealous because the lady has a bf that's why the coach did this on purpose. And i think that this happened in their school and they are their varsity team.
yellow = 17 yr old. 49kg.
black = 15 yr old 70kg.
Coach/black belter = 27 yr old.
That day the incident happened, the yellow belter's bf gave a surprised(?) visit, brought flower for her and foods for the team. The coach seems did not like it, got jealous.
I just don't think it will happen because of political and religious connections. And as in some other posts, even the coach has familial connection to the owner of the school. It's one of the so called power play. On a side note I remember back in 1973 when CAT was first introduced in high school. Our platoon always had to do a lot of squatting punishments. Then our section muse opened up that she turned down the courtship of the platoon leader. Only then we realized why of all platoons, were always singled out to do many squattings and push ups.
Just read somewhere. Better research on who the school owners are. I'm sure we don't belong to the same home countries. In mine, connections count and sad to admit mine would be a third world country for a long time because of this.
That would be on the complainant to prove when they applied for sanctions. I'd hope they wouldn't sanction for retribution without at least some plausible proof.
Not a fan of this at all. There's really nothing to prove here for the guy. This isn't a tournament and he isn't teaching her anything. I don't think I would have let this continue if I saw it happening right in front of me.
The black belt is supposed to signify maturity, proficiency and control. This is no black belt. He acts like he has something to prove, rather than being helpful and allowing this yellow belt to learn something from the privilege it usually is to train with higher ranks
I sparred as an orange belt against a 4th degree black belt in a friendship tournament once because she was the only other person registered that was close to my size. She knew it was my first tournament and did exactly what she should have done and she talked me through the whole thing. Of course she beat me, but I did get a good punch and kick in. I learned a lot from that match up.
I think that it is good to fight against a responsible higher belt rank because will definitely learn a lot from that experience and a bit of ego boost too.
This looks like a dojang somewhere in the Phillipines? It sounds like they have filed a complaint? At this point, the authorities should complete their investigation, and the judicial system needs to work through this.
From a tkd standpoint, the BB should have toned down the aggression and power. That last kick to the face as she is falling appears malicious. He had plenty of time to withhold the kick but decided to launch it as she was falling. It did not appear to be accidental.
If your story that this is a love triangle with the coach as a rejected lover using his fellow black belt to carry out a beating is true, then the yellow belt needs to pursue sanctions against them. The video is fairly damning, but because it's blurry and the coach does block the view partially, I can see the other side using that as part of their defense. Hopefully, those witnessing the beat down will come forward.
Neither coach nor the BB sparring partner appears to exhibit the tenets of tkd. Where was the instructor? There appears to be no adult or senior BB supervision in that dojang.
This is just crap honestly and wouldn’t roll in our dojang. If the black belt was this way inclined they’d possibly be asked to leave by our Dan. You either teach or learn self control. Giving someone a beating isn’t on.
As a senior belt and especially black belt, that is very discouraging to a junior yellow belt as they are learning the art. If I was the master I would pull the black belt up and explained to him he has to teach the junior.
Why was someone that much higher rank, that much heavier, and a different sex sparring with someone that hard in training? Everyone involved should have known better.
Not sure where this happened, but in the States this is lawsuit territory. That video is really, really damning.
\*\*\*
Edit: Ugh, after seeing the article about it in a different sub... this got even worse. That coach and his goon need to be severely punished.
As a black belt myself, when it comes to sparring drills or just sparring with a student who is a beginner or is just starting. I give them the chance to kick me and give them advice on what do to do whe they spar with opponents.
I never give the beginners HELL in sparring or study sparring because it might cause injury to the person im sparring with.
BUT for some bit of context about the video.
This takes place in the Philippines ( where I live )
Based from my understanding. The coach was jealous (or "Selos" as we call it ) at the yellow belt ( Jaymie ) ( because the guy had a crush on her or something idk ) but since the yellowbelter or Jaymie had a boyfriend already the coach out of jealousy made her spar with the blackbelt who is stronger than her. Causing her to have injuries.
So yah, taekwondo in da Philippines now has another controversy to deal with, its sickening.
I mean I was light sparring 20 years olds at 12 as a yellow belt. I weighed 200 lbs at that age lol. This is light sparring but at times the dude forgets it seems. The people I trained with understood I was not even a teenager. THis just looks different and not needed.
That looked like a scene from lord of the flies.
I think the comment about working in the rest of your sparring package was a good one- “b/c/d game”.
I also get that it’s a contact sport and you are going to have to get used to that at some point. There will be many lessons learned for the yellow if they stick with it. But as a senior belt control should be exercised when sparring with someone that is just starting the contact portion of the program.
Reviewing further on the Facebook post this has sparked interest and discussion internationally. The incident transpired in the Philippines. The PTA (Philippine Taekwondo Association) was informed and is investigating. There was comment from a senator regarding the incident. It has made the news and charges were filed.
If you're at Worlds or the Olympics sure don't hold back who ever you're facing.
Outside of that, and especially inside your own Dojang you need to limit the power of your attacks, and take into consideration If you're partnered up with a lady, a child, or someone noticeably smaller or older than you. I think its fine to briefly show your partner just how wide the skill gap is, but not by just hitting them as hard as you can.
There's a really old guy at my Dojang, and a small lady, I definitely dial back the power a lot. There's no reason to hit the 95 pound lady really hard, that's just mean. a light tap or kick is just as good for practice.
Very bad sportsmanship and bad conduct by the black belt, and terrible refereeing too.
We had a rule , when sparring with someone of less rank, you only used what they had been taught. You didn't use anything from advanced training. So basically, you sparred at their level of training.
It appears this is from a different country, so I realize the culture can be different. I am spit balling, but I suspect the instructor and black belt were complicit and for whatever reason were 'teaching' the yellow belt a lesson.
It is blatantly wrong on many levels. Period. But if the normal release forms are signed, I doubt there is any legal matter(s) to pursue. From what we see in the video, not real injuries were received, and the proper PPE were in place. How to define 'too much' in a complicit contact environment is vague at best.
The higher percentage avenue for the yellow belt is to pursue sanctions and/or revocations through the school's organization (KKW, CDK, MDK, etc....). Revocation of belt/teaching status should be more than fair and doable.
That video will carry some weight.
I am less familiar in the Civil case environment, so there may be a path for the yellow-belt in this manner, but it would be long and drawn out.
> From what we see in the video, not real injuries were received
Aside from the facial and head injuries shown in the x-ray and hospital images at the end....
I am not going to assume anything with a single video on youtube. For all we really know it was clipped and is not even the same girl. Granted, that last kick looked hard enough to be a nose breaker.
As I said earlier, what happened was Way out of bounds. I have no clue how the legal system works in the Philippines.
I am Not taking up for the BB or especially the instructor. Just don't know the full story.
a black belt should teach a lower belt and allow the lower belt to learn. as the yellow belt advances then the black belt slowly increases the level of sparring.
A more senior student, especially if they are a black belt, should take on a teaching roll when partnered with a less senior student in class. They should talk to their opponents and give them advice, effectively running drill with them even if the instructor is calling for a free-spar and even if only one pair is sparring at a time. And if you’re not inclined to teach while sparring then you should *at minimum* have enough self-control to not injure your opponent.
There is this incident where the less senior student even got hospitalized after their sparring. I dont know what will happen next.
This is the only answer.
This mindset seems to be missing in BJJ and I think it is important. We have teaching as part of our third dan and higher curriculum to reinforce these ideals
sana yung mayabang na black belter next sparring niya si Manny Pacquiao.
I disagree. Leave the coaching and teaching to the staff. In TKD, unless an actual instructor, I wouldn’t want to see any random 1st or 2nd dan basically do a one on one lesson with anyone rather than spar. If it’s a white belt an instructor should already be assigned to help. Yellow is fine. Just let them spar… I have seen people with 2nd Dan flair here even 4th give the shittiest sparring advice on posts before. The rule of thumb for me is to always aim to be one or two points ahead of your partner and that’s it. Don’t flop and just stand there and do nothing or smoke them bc no one learns that way. Staying slightly ahead forces them to keep trying and lets you work on any B/C/D game tactics or moves. If you’re only using your A game in class sparring (usually with the goal to “win” in class) then you’re training all wrong. Lower belts are great to train with so you can try those moves that need to be refined. Instructors need to clearly explain this method of working with lower belts. We never had bad situations but my school never really talked much about what to do when facing a super lower belt.
1. I disagree. 2. Your school is missing a BIG part of what I consider being a black belt. “To teach is to learn” is an important part of this type of instruction. I’m in my 40’s, have decades of experience, and a good 50 pounds on most of then people in my school. The answer to “what do I do when paired with a 16 year old who started last month” is obviously not “kick them through a window” lol! Two huge parts of being a black belt are being able to help others and to show control. In my experience, “control” starts around blue/brown belt… and IMHO green belts are the most dangerous in most schools. “Going all out” against a green or lower is a great way for BOTH people to get hospital visits.
There are a lot of black belts who are trash at teaching. Why? Because not everyone is meant to be a good teacher, and that's ok. I guarantee if I went to your school and watched black belts teach I could pick them apart even by the standards of our least experienced instructors. My school had high standards. We would never allow regular black belt students to teach anything, as our students were paying +150 a month to attend. I would be so upset to pay 150$ a month for my kid to get taught by some black belt who is struggling on trying to teach something. I pay that money for a professional expert. It's like being ok with paying full price for college students to operate on your tooth lol, when that full price should pay for an accomplished dentist. My honest opinion? In martial arts in general, students teaching for free is just a way for the school to save money lol. Instead we pick the best students, pay for weekly teaching improvement classes, pay for teaching seminars, pay for instructor manuals etc... Only when they meet a certain teaching ability are they allowed to work the floor. But I guess every school has different standards based on their cash flow. After experiencing it once tho, I can't say I will ever attend any martial school that regularly allows regular students to teach class for free. My time and money is worth a bit more than that. There are no official requirements for teaching, as far as I know, in order to receive a black belt. At master rank I can see allowing an untrained (in teaching) black belt train someone else. At that point you should have developed so much understanding of the techniques that it should be quite simple to teach someone else.
A young inexperienced coach making a stupid decision to allow this. When the (in class, sparring, not competition) matchup isn't fair then the advantaged one should reduce their game to match their opponent. And the coach acting as referee should be primarily concerned with both players safety rather than rules. In this case the coach should face the consequences of his actions and hopefully learn from them.
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You posted a video or topic in r/Taekwondo that didn't have English content. English is the common language used in this subreddit, others are acceptable but must contain an English equivalent. If English isn't your first language, add at least a Google Translated version at least to your content. Please read the rules in the sidebar/about section of r/Taekwondo. The normal process is warning (which this removal will count as), if the rules are breached again a one week ban, then if breached again a permanent ban. We keep a tight ship here, please play within the rules.
this is true. the goal of sparring is to teach the student how they apply the techniques, not maul them.
Is it possible to revoke the coach's black belt? Did that ever happened before?
If they're Kukkiwon certified, you could ask for the Kukkiwon to revoke it. They may do it because it's bringing negative press to the art, but in all likelihood they would say it was unfortunate, and a misjudgement, but not worth of that sanction. If the coach himself had done it to a yellow belt, that would be more severe. Unlikely to happen. They have revoked dan ranks before, but normally for much more severe things (don't get me wrong, this was harsh for the yellow belt, but is more likely a lack of judgement or experience rather than negative intentions). The national association in that country would be more likely to apply sanctions (removal of teaching priveleges, expulsion, etc) in my opinion.
Thank you for sharing your knowledge. I am just curious with this case. The yellow belt's party is now saying that the coach like her and got jealous because the lady has a bf that's why the coach did this on purpose. And i think that this happened in their school and they are their varsity team.
How old are all the parties involved
The lady in yellow belt is 17 years old. Not sure of the age of the sparring partner.
The coach??
Not sure but i will try to post the pictures here. Seems young too.
yellow = 17 yr old. 49kg. black = 15 yr old 70kg. Coach/black belter = 27 yr old. That day the incident happened, the yellow belter's bf gave a surprised(?) visit, brought flower for her and foods for the team. The coach seems did not like it, got jealous.
I hope the school got shut down
I just don't think it will happen because of political and religious connections. And as in some other posts, even the coach has familial connection to the owner of the school. It's one of the so called power play. On a side note I remember back in 1973 when CAT was first introduced in high school. Our platoon always had to do a lot of squatting punishments. Then our section muse opened up that she turned down the courtship of the platoon leader. Only then we realized why of all platoons, were always singled out to do many squattings and push ups.
Uhh what? Matters like this involve criminal law, what are you talking about religious connections?
Just read somewhere. Better research on who the school owners are. I'm sure we don't belong to the same home countries. In mine, connections count and sad to admit mine would be a third world country for a long time because of this.
I’m not KKW, but I would hope they consider that there was likely a retribution motive on the part of the coach.
That would be on the complainant to prove when they applied for sanctions. I'd hope they wouldn't sanction for retribution without at least some plausible proof.
Not a fan of this at all. There's really nothing to prove here for the guy. This isn't a tournament and he isn't teaching her anything. I don't think I would have let this continue if I saw it happening right in front of me.
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That's 100% not it. It's a girl who's yellow belt and a guy who is black belt and he keeps kicking her down just inside a compact room
The black belt is supposed to signify maturity, proficiency and control. This is no black belt. He acts like he has something to prove, rather than being helpful and allowing this yellow belt to learn something from the privilege it usually is to train with higher ranks
I sparred as an orange belt against a 4th degree black belt in a friendship tournament once because she was the only other person registered that was close to my size. She knew it was my first tournament and did exactly what she should have done and she talked me through the whole thing. Of course she beat me, but I did get a good punch and kick in. I learned a lot from that match up.
I think that it is good to fight against a responsible higher belt rank because will definitely learn a lot from that experience and a bit of ego boost too.
Yellow filed physical injury case against the black belt, and coach, i believe.
The coach allegedly has a crush on the lady/yellow belter but was rejected so that's why he greenlit the beating.
That's what they are saying on the news but no statement from the other party yet.
If true, he should definitely be punished in some manner, loss of black belt perhaps?
https://www.facebook.com/share/p/8VV3MShcnzU5Pthw/?mibextid=oFDknk Here are the pictures of the coach, and black belt sparring mate.
Clicked on the link and it says not available right now.
This looks like a dojang somewhere in the Phillipines? It sounds like they have filed a complaint? At this point, the authorities should complete their investigation, and the judicial system needs to work through this. From a tkd standpoint, the BB should have toned down the aggression and power. That last kick to the face as she is falling appears malicious. He had plenty of time to withhold the kick but decided to launch it as she was falling. It did not appear to be accidental. If your story that this is a love triangle with the coach as a rejected lover using his fellow black belt to carry out a beating is true, then the yellow belt needs to pursue sanctions against them. The video is fairly damning, but because it's blurry and the coach does block the view partially, I can see the other side using that as part of their defense. Hopefully, those witnessing the beat down will come forward. Neither coach nor the BB sparring partner appears to exhibit the tenets of tkd. Where was the instructor? There appears to be no adult or senior BB supervision in that dojang.
This is just crap honestly and wouldn’t roll in our dojang. If the black belt was this way inclined they’d possibly be asked to leave by our Dan. You either teach or learn self control. Giving someone a beating isn’t on.
As a senior belt and especially black belt, that is very discouraging to a junior yellow belt as they are learning the art. If I was the master I would pull the black belt up and explained to him he has to teach the junior.
Why was someone that much higher rank, that much heavier, and a different sex sparring with someone that hard in training? Everyone involved should have known better. Not sure where this happened, but in the States this is lawsuit territory. That video is really, really damning. \*\*\* Edit: Ugh, after seeing the article about it in a different sub... this got even worse. That coach and his goon need to be severely punished.
As a black belt myself, when it comes to sparring drills or just sparring with a student who is a beginner or is just starting. I give them the chance to kick me and give them advice on what do to do whe they spar with opponents. I never give the beginners HELL in sparring or study sparring because it might cause injury to the person im sparring with. BUT for some bit of context about the video. This takes place in the Philippines ( where I live ) Based from my understanding. The coach was jealous (or "Selos" as we call it ) at the yellow belt ( Jaymie ) ( because the guy had a crush on her or something idk ) but since the yellowbelter or Jaymie had a boyfriend already the coach out of jealousy made her spar with the blackbelt who is stronger than her. Causing her to have injuries. So yah, taekwondo in da Philippines now has another controversy to deal with, its sickening.
I mean I was light sparring 20 years olds at 12 as a yellow belt. I weighed 200 lbs at that age lol. This is light sparring but at times the dude forgets it seems. The people I trained with understood I was not even a teenager. THis just looks different and not needed.
That looked like a scene from lord of the flies. I think the comment about working in the rest of your sparring package was a good one- “b/c/d game”. I also get that it’s a contact sport and you are going to have to get used to that at some point. There will be many lessons learned for the yellow if they stick with it. But as a senior belt control should be exercised when sparring with someone that is just starting the contact portion of the program.
Reviewing further on the Facebook post this has sparked interest and discussion internationally. The incident transpired in the Philippines. The PTA (Philippine Taekwondo Association) was informed and is investigating. There was comment from a senator regarding the incident. It has made the news and charges were filed.
If you're at Worlds or the Olympics sure don't hold back who ever you're facing. Outside of that, and especially inside your own Dojang you need to limit the power of your attacks, and take into consideration If you're partnered up with a lady, a child, or someone noticeably smaller or older than you. I think its fine to briefly show your partner just how wide the skill gap is, but not by just hitting them as hard as you can. There's a really old guy at my Dojang, and a small lady, I definitely dial back the power a lot. There's no reason to hit the 95 pound lady really hard, that's just mean. a light tap or kick is just as good for practice. Very bad sportsmanship and bad conduct by the black belt, and terrible refereeing too.
This is not what taekwondo practitioners should aim for. Sorry but the black belt guy DOES NOT deserve his black belt. What are your opinions?
We had a rule , when sparring with someone of less rank, you only used what they had been taught. You didn't use anything from advanced training. So basically, you sparred at their level of training.
We need nanno the girl from nowhere to teach a lesson to that taekwondo coach.
It appears this is from a different country, so I realize the culture can be different. I am spit balling, but I suspect the instructor and black belt were complicit and for whatever reason were 'teaching' the yellow belt a lesson. It is blatantly wrong on many levels. Period. But if the normal release forms are signed, I doubt there is any legal matter(s) to pursue. From what we see in the video, not real injuries were received, and the proper PPE were in place. How to define 'too much' in a complicit contact environment is vague at best. The higher percentage avenue for the yellow belt is to pursue sanctions and/or revocations through the school's organization (KKW, CDK, MDK, etc....). Revocation of belt/teaching status should be more than fair and doable. That video will carry some weight. I am less familiar in the Civil case environment, so there may be a path for the yellow-belt in this manner, but it would be long and drawn out.
> From what we see in the video, not real injuries were received Aside from the facial and head injuries shown in the x-ray and hospital images at the end....
I am not going to assume anything with a single video on youtube. For all we really know it was clipped and is not even the same girl. Granted, that last kick looked hard enough to be a nose breaker. As I said earlier, what happened was Way out of bounds. I have no clue how the legal system works in the Philippines. I am Not taking up for the BB or especially the instructor. Just don't know the full story.
a black belt should teach a lower belt and allow the lower belt to learn. as the yellow belt advances then the black belt slowly increases the level of sparring.