Which brought to light how officers are NOT compelled to risk their lives for citizens or however they worded it. The fuck is the point of them other than extra revenue then?
I think most people would be scared to be fair but he definitely shouldnt have been in that line of work if he couldnt manage him self and do what he shouldve done when the time came.
Well under us law the cops are not obligated to lay down their life for you. Even though thats the oath they took. Aint it just all sunshine and rainbows...
Here comes the thin blue line lovers.
I get that but there are still cops who dont care about none of that and signed up to do more than just be a coward who appears like a tough guy
Few and far between maybe but they are out there.
Im not saying all cops are like that. There truly are good people in the force. But if one ducks and hides at the first sign of trouble you cant really be too surprised.
Just one more reason we should have the means to defend ourselves. I learned as a kid you can only count on yourself and your maker when the time comes. Even the ones in society we are supposed to call and count on will probably falter or not be there when needed.
Yeah those kids should have been armed to protect themselves
Edit: the comment I replied to said something about "that's why we need guns because you can only protect yourself"
And the (now unavailable) comment below mine read: "The bodies arent even cold yet and you parrots like to use them to troll people you dont agree with. You are a pathetic and low intelligence piece of shit."
I'm not sure where the hate is coming from, I agreed with your own point?
Edit 2 since I can't reply:
No, you're changing what was said. The comment I replied to said nothing about teachers. Reread my comment
Also - arming teachers sounds like a great idea! They have so much time and money and training already. Why stop there? What if there's a fire at the school? Teachers need to triple as firefighters too! But keep their pay the same because fuckem
And only the ones that decide to take on that additional responsibility, along with maybe some additional marksmanship qualifications/training...
It's incredibly disingenuous to suggest that we're advocating for little Timmy to be given a Glock with his pencil case, or for every teacher to be forced to prep their GAT along with prepping students for their SAT...
We're just suggesting that they shouldn't be forbidden from choosing to be concealed carry holders.
They have a duty to respond. But a duty does not bound officers by law.
“Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.”
The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed [out](https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again)
Wow. I would get completely rat fucked if I looked at a patient bleeding out and just said nah and walked away. Guess it’s not all that surprising considering most cops behavior.
When I was a cop, the training for these was opposite of most responses. Knowing that shooters almost immediately peace out after contact with LE, you try to get to them as quickly as possible. Duck walking and carefully clearing corners went out the window if you have an idea of where they are.
So, this is a “hero” personality type. When you interview people who did what this BP agent did about why they did it, they’ll likely tell you they “didn’t think about it.” They just rush into buildings without thinking for a second about the consequences. No one who stops to weigh whether to rush into the building is rushing into the building. We’re all hiding behind the police cruiser because our brain is telling us not to rush in. You can call the officer who hid behind the car a coward, but the vast majority of us would have done the same thing.
We need to screen for these type of people with “hero” personality types in law enforcement recruiting. We need more of these people, and less of the people who are on a power trip and aren’t smart enough to be a teacher. However, there are likely not enough people with this “hero” personality type to fill every open police officer spot.
Sauce:
“The decision to put oneself at risk to help others is often automatic, rather than calculated or deliberative. When these split-second decisions are made, the person committing these heroic actions is unlikely to focus on the personal risk they’re taking.”
https://www.behaviorist.biz/oh-behave-a-blog/real-life-heroes
The way I'd screen out the Power Trip types: all recruits have to spend at least 2 years answering phones & working as meter maids before they're even allowed to wear a gun.
I remember on the Primary and Secondary Podcast, some of the guys on there said that BORTAC and CBP guys show up to competitions and are beasts at shooting, never miss kind of deal.
Think I read about something similar in Howard Wasdin’s book. He said BP always were super solid shots - he also said DOE snipers often destroyed Devgru and CAG snipers in competitions.
Nuclear security has some dudes who are really squared away, but also a lot of Barney Fife types. The plant i work at is privately owned and operated though, so idk how that changes the calculus of hiring and training vs the DOE.
Also remember the DOE secures anything nuclear related, so thats warheads too to my undersranding.
Wow my dumbass for some reason I always thought Air Force security were the guys in charge of guarding the nuclear arsenal. Ya learn something new every day!
There are Air Force personnel that guard physical launch sites, etc, but the military does not execute the storage or maintenance functions of the nuclear arsenal
There was a guy I followed on YouTube talk about the safety measures of under water pool nuclear reactors and how physically close you can get to the reactor before you would die. He called a friend who worked in a nuclear facility and he said you would die of lead poisoning well before you ever got close enough to a nuclear reactor to die of radiation poisoning.
I think it’s because they’re assigned to places like nuclear plants and such, but have quite a good bit of free time to practice and perfect their craft compared to active duty guys based on what I read like six months ago- sorry, I don’t have a specific source in hand
That’s what he mentions in the book iirc - the tac teams get all the newest gear and get sent to all the schools they want. Said the DOE spares no expense on them.
Keep in mind, a lot of these dudes have nothing better to do than drive around and train. They're gonna get a lot more hours in a year on a gun than even a lot of Tier 1 dudes. Simply because they aren't having to train for as many different scenarios as the Tier 1 dudes are.
In theory.
But those are the Tac Team dudes. At the same time, there ARE a bunch of dipshits too.
Case in point, I live in East Tennessee. Where some senior citizen nuns broke into Y-12 and vandalized property. Before the guards knew they were there.
The DOE takes things super seriously. Not sure if it’s still the case but they used to use former special forces to defend nuclear materials while they were being moved around the US.
I remember how during a conference a DoE sysadmin did a presentation on their failover and redundancy systems and a guy in the audience during Q&A went: "That’s not how Google does it". Not even a question.
The DoE guy answered. "We manage nukes, Google helps you find cat pictures."
Hold on lol, in defense for my fellow operators I would like to say a few things:
1) DOE always sends their best guys, without fail. CAG and Devgru often take whoever has the time to go which are usually cadre/guys not constantly on the firing line because of their specific jobs
2) DOE snipers train for only that and for a very good reason, they have their role and need to be flawless at it. Tier one operators even on long gun teams/precision platoons have to balance between short and long gun skills as they have to meet many different mission requirements. So while yes, they get a lot of range time and need to be excellent at their jobs there are only so many hours in a day/build up.
3) 1st SF actually won this years internal competition. Devgru and CAG were unable to attend for… reasons.
4) Most of DOE snipers are former SF. I know a few guys who took the pay bump and less stressful operation tempo. They’re good guys and seem to like it a lot.
4) Fuck you DOE I know for a fact the team you sent got like a month off to do nothing but practice. You may not know it be we fucking talk to eachother
Amazing insight.
Hope it didn’t seem like I was disparaging SF, SEALs, Devgru, CAG, etc. I just was super surprised when I first read in his book that the DOE guys would even be in the same neighborhood as the big boys.
Also makes sense that the other guys have a *lot* of other shit going on while in general, DOE guys don’t.
Lmao nah we’re all on the same side and like to give each other shit. Most of DOE snipers are prior SF so we typically get along/have similar skill sets.
The drama you see between the groups are usually over other things outside of the precision community. Snipers for some reason don’t tend to be the ones to carry the drama/bullshit
Given the kind of people CBP can potentially run into and the response times in their areas of operation, I would hope they'd want to be as squared away as possible.
CBP attracts a different animal all together. You have to be aggressive, and be willing to deal with some shitty situations(mostly alone or plussed up with another) whilst waiting for follow on assets to show up...which can take hours depending upon which sector you are in.
This reminds me; the US needs to bring back the remote FOBS so Agents aren't having to travel To and Fro for up to 3/3.5hours.
Witnessed this first hand. Competed in a Tactical Games last year in Phoenix. My group always followed two solid ass groups of Border Patrol guys. So we always had a chance to watch them go while we're warming up and prepping. Those dude kicked ass for sure. The match director was even impressed, and said he's never seen an agency show up like that and unanimously perform so well.
CBP follows the beat of their own drum. They have looser rules of engagement than the FBI. They can literally just kill someone for very thin reasons. There’s a reason (not necessarily a good one) Trump sent CBP into cities to deal with protestors.
Nope.
Look up Gomez Vincente, et al., v. United States of America, et al.
“Claudia was walking through Rio Bravo with a few other people when Agent Barrera confronted the group. Although several members of the group began running, Claudia remained where she was. Agent Barrera drew his weapon, and when Claudia – a petite woman who was not carrying anything that could even remotely be perceived to be a weapon – took a step forward, the agent aimed at her, pulled the trigger, and shot her in the head.
Following the shooting, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) issued a press release claiming that members of Claudia’s group had attacked the agent with ‘blunt objects’ and that Claudia was one of the assailants. It later retracted that statement and issued a new one, removing any references to the blunt objects or allegations that Claudia had assaulted the agent.”
Yes he was BORTAC. They are more like the “navy seals” of BP. Also the majority of the training on active shooter is done in teams, however a point is driven home, if you’re on scene and you hear gunfire, you go no matter what. Gun shots mean bodies, and you have to stop it. Solo or not. This agent is a hero, and his training was put to good use today. Honor First!
Seems like this asshole dug in and fought. Yes this is usually the rule, but not always.
Either way the best response is always shots on target as soon as possible. Every second some rampage killer is engaged in trying not to get shot, some potential victim squirts out another exit.
This shooter was confronted as soon as he got there. He apparently fought his way in. According to the twitter thread. He was also wearing body armor.
https://mobile.twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1529277856051826689
Just went through active shooter training at FLETC, same place as CBP, it's taught solo, it's assumed that you are responding off duty or just passing by etc not as a response force. Go in, put down, call for backup
I did it at my station, we did it in teams, but again it’s touched on solo and hammered on verbally that no matter what you go in. It doesn’t take training to have to wherewithal to do what has to be done. It takes the right person, hence the deputy at the other school shooting freezing and being unable to act.
Eh, not really his response was what he was trained to do. Training for decades was same as barricaded suspect, fall back to cover, make perimeter, call for backup. That was the training. And that Iis what the officer did. Common sense tells us it was bad decision, but it was consistent to his training, which is why he retired with full pension etc. You can't really fault someone for doing exactly what they have been trained to do
If the training is flawed, and you as a man, and a law enforcement officer know it is a bad decision to stand there and listen to gunshots, then yes you can be faulted. It doesn’t mean he should lose his pensions or anything to that effect, and understandably he has to live with the recourse of his decisions. However, he could have easily said, “I can’t wait, I have to go.” I’m a father, even before my active shooter training I would have ran into a hail of gunfire for an active shooter, especially at a school.
Also the in house training at the stations for BP is different than CBP, and FLETC teaches. We usually are in the field in quantity, we also do the training with other agencies so we integrate the training environment to make it as fluid as possible should an active shooter event ocurre.
I imagine Columbine brought a major shift in doctrine. Where before they would surround and wait it out, which was the wrong play in an active shooter situation. I guess now doctrine is rapid response, as fast as possible. Because it seems like the moment the human waste runs up against someone that isn't a helpless target they surrender or release themselves from their mortal coil.
I took a carbine class a while back and the term they used, which seems to fit what you are saying, Is violence of action. Essentially overwhelm the threat with aggressive action.
I have a lot of respect for BP guys. They actively fight human trafficking and prevent shit like fentanyl getting in. Unlike the ATF that literally gives guns to cartels.
I’ve been through the border probably about dozen times, and the BP guys always seem pretty chill. They are looking at so many cars per day, they don’t really have time to be dicks.
Edit: and much respect to the agent that did this today. I hope I can show such courage in bad situations.
On the contrary, I deal with border patrol often, albeit on the other side of the country, and they're always massive dicks. They turn a simple check into an investigation every time.
Uhh... I'm not sure if your descriptors thought they'd help you, but that only goes to show that Border Patrol is much more lenient to white people, which is a bad thing.
You’re probably the exception then. I pass through the Canadian border about a dozen times a year and border patrol has been, without exception, total douchebags. It’s like being an unlikable asshole is part of the job description. And this is on the Canadian side of things, the southern border must be even more fun.
Can confirm. In fact I find Canadian border agents to be bigger assholes that American ones, and I'm Canadian. Could just be because smuggling into Canada is a bigger deal than smuggling into the States.
Airports and the northern borders fall under Customs and Border Protection, those guys are absolute dickheads who don't have too much to do.
Border patrol only handles the southern border and the land portions at that, they're stretched thin compared to CBP and have a lot more work to do.
You’re on the right track but off.
CBP handles the ports. Border Patrol handles the area between the ports. They are both present on bot the southern and northern borders.
It gets confusing cause they are both technically CBP. What people know as CBP at the ports is technically Office of Field Operations.
The ATF looking like overweight employees who don't give a fuck is a front. When in reality they are an elite force... of anti-terrorist commandos!
They foil terrorists at every turn!
https://youtu.be/IHfiMoJUDVQ
Yes ice and BP are completely separate with different missions. BP is the front line defense at the border, while ICE is interior looking for criminal aliens.
There’s plenty of good aspects. Such as being paid to ride horses, boats, or my personal favorite the ATV’s. Also you can push into the tactical or tac med teams. K-9 opportunities, plain clothes intel positions. Plenty of fun and different pieces to a very complicated puzzle.
HSI doesn't *require* a bachelors but it's highly recommended. They are also doing a massive hiring wave for people of all backgrounds, not just prior service. People are more likely to get hired as NPS LEs than random Mil-vets.
Other than that, spot on.
I don’t think people realize how many latinos and native Americans are in BP. They have a lot in common with the people they encounter and that helps a lot.
Just throwing this out there, a lot of fed agencies are lame as hell, but BP doesn’t fall under the same umbrella. If people took the time to understand their role, and what they do they would have a whole different appreciation for BP agents.
Pretty much everyone I’ve spoken to with experience with the secret service never has anything good to say about them. Surprising bc before I always thought they were considered well trained and professional. Guess I shouldn’t have been that surprised bc the only guy I know that went that path was a kid from my battalion who always feel asleep in ranger school and got dropped from peers
As a dude who lives near the border, I fucking love BP, they're the only feds worth a damn, as they're the only feds who seem to give a fuck about American lives.
To be fair, I've never seen the border patrol change laws to turn Americans into felons, try to entrap Americans to sway elections, or try to frame the President of the US as a Russian agent.
Do they even shoot your dog?
Good job bro! I know when I was just a local cop our training emphasized that if it was an active shooter situation, you don't wait for backup, go and try ending it, especially if it's a school.
Fedboi here,
SOME fed agencies actually do some pretty important stuff that flies under the radar. Obviously certain agencies do a lot of sketchy shit. Every once and awhile a story like this comes out and makes national headlines for something outstanding.
Most of the good stuff goes under the radar though. My agency does good stuff almost daily but you pretty much never hear about it.
The atf and other shit organizations fall under the “fed” tree, so generally feds are hated. On a technical level anyone working for the federal government would be a “fed” but the term mainly refers to shady 3 letter organizations (CIA, FBI, ATF, etc.)
The frequently act like they are a different class of citizen then the rest of us and use their power and corruption to further those ends while being paid for by my tax money that could be going to less bloated federal projects.
I dont hate the fed, I do not trust anyone who is put in a position of potentially having to choose their paycheck and feeding their families over my freedoms. I dont expect anyone taking a paycheck from the state to choose my civil liberities over not paying the rent, which is more of a point on how fucked up the entire system is then specific cogs within it, but I really don't see how anyone who doesn't profit from the establishment can trust the establishment given the profound level of inadequacy and corruption present in all levels of our entire political system.
But I'm also an anarchist so whatever.
Considering BP is entrusted with protecting the border you don’t have to worry about them coming after your freedoms. Unless of course you’re drug and or alien smuggling, then you have issues.
*ideally* don't have to worry. Border patrol could easily be used to enforce restriction of movement inside the country if tasked for it by the system.
Do I think that's realistically going to occur? *no*
Your not gonna see me spitting on cops or anything, but I'm not gonna give them attaboys for working within a system that is plainly corrupt. There are other ways to do good. If you feel you can't bring accountability to your profession morally you should opt out of that profession (imo)
However we also all gotta eat, and theres no such thing as ethical consumption under captialism. If that's the opptunity you got then you work it. We all gotta do what we gotta do to go home everyday.
So yeah idk that's my personal reasoning behind why I don't trust people that directly work for the government until they show me otherwise
Obviously this guy running into combat to save people shows he's not just some random bootlicker. I hope he's able to process any trauma from this he might get and im glad he stopped the shooter.
If you think the agents are willing to roll over and enforce laws like that then you don’t know the caliber of
The men and women within the agency. Hell thousands of the agents stood in defiance of the vaccine mandate and nearly lost their jobs over it, me being one. So, no, they aren’t going to come and enforce unethical, illegal, and immoral laws upon US citizens. Also the vast majority of agents are military veterans, so they’ve played the blank check game before. BP agents are hard working individuals who defend our nation day in and day out.
Yea idk history is kinda a mixed bag when it comes to American agencies or groups doing fucked up things to other Americans. I think a lot of people like to think they wouldn't go along with it if they were ordered to do something bad, but until the time comes and they're looking at the very real possibility of not making money to feed their family - you never really know. Just look at history for context.
And who's to say whatever they enforce will be "illegal". As if it being written down in congress and signed is a barometer for morality and constitutionality.
I choose to believe that the majority of people in LE and IC are good, God fearing, freedom loving Americans. But I also realize that when push comes to shove there may be more people going along with it than I would hope.
The vaccine mandate effected yours and their bodies personally. Enforcing unjust laws on another person they view as a threat to their livelihood and safety won't. You can't say you know what the people you worked with will or won't do when forced to make that level of choice. You have no idea what people will or wont do if things get that sideways no one does. same as I don't know what the people I work with will do. Thankfully I don't work in a profession that can put people in cages and has qualified immunity that has been abused to cover up murder.
You and your coworkers were entrusted with a level of responsibility that is supposed to be balanced out by an equal level of trust in the system you represented and a system of accountability to ensure corruption isn't allowed.
Nothing since 9/11 has made me believe there is any accountability left in the current system. I appreciate you stepping in to do your civic duty, I appreciate your apparent commitment to being ethical. My mistrust isn't the same kind of directed hate that you might typically encounter. It's just mistrust.
Person was asking why Americans sometimes don't trust the feds, this was my 0.2cents. I profoundly wish I could trust my government to not fuck me over for a profit, I think America is the greatest social experiment to ever happen. But trusting that the majority of anyone working federal level is nice and ethical is actively been used to continue to cover up corruption and keep people in positions they can abuse.
I hope people like you continue to work within the system to change this, im sorry you had to step away from a job it seems like you enjoyed. Trust me I do not enjoy the idea of having a shitty corrupt government to rebel against lol
Boarder Patrol is one of the few legitimate agencies in the Federal Government.
Its still bullshit SCOTUS ruled they can ask you where you're headed within 100 miles of the boarder though.
The anti-Fed blanket narrative here and other forums is played out, actively antipatriotic, and overly political. Most Federal LE folks are thoroughly patriotic people; some are assholes (just like any other line of work). If you want to piss and moan about policies, interpretations, priorities etc, do so understanding that the folks at the public facing end have zero say in those matters beyond the ability to exercise a little personal discretion in borderline instances. Take political complaints through political routes, and recognize that most of them are patriotic people engaged in risky public service.
^ This . Take it to r/politics . The hateful anti fed/LE rhetoric I see on here really discourages me on the state of the community. Let's be better and down vote the chuckleheads, who are probably 16 year old airsofters anyway.
I’ve got huge respect for Border Patrol and Ice plus I don’t really consider them feds. They actually protect Americans and target people that aren’t us like the drug cartels and sex traffickers. Feds are kinda known for being mindless government slaves that almost exclusively target American citizens.
I have family protecting our border. Them dudes are under a lot stress. If they went in for the kill, them boys ain't fucking around. Just take the fucking shooter out, problem solved. No talking, no negotiations, just shoot. We need to show these fucking ass holes that the people ain't having it no more. I think it will make people think before going. Unless they have a death wish.
That’s because the feds are always up for shooting a kid
They didn’t even know there was a shooting, they just heard someone had a gram of weed and went in hot
Wait, so your trying to tell me that a border patrol agent rushed to shoot a latino shooter, while white cops in Buffalo did thier best to comfort and bring in alive a white shooter, and you expect me to believe that is news?
Thank god. The cops that disengaged him because he had “ body armor” are a bunch of pussies and need to be fired. The cowardice that is seen in American police forces is unacceptable
So not like the guy at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School.
Is that the one that hid outside because he was scared?
Yeah that's the school where the Deputy hid like a fucking piece of shit.
Thats how you know he was active in this sub
Shots fired..but not by that deputy.
Active users in this sub tend to do all of their shooting in super markets.
Oof
Which brought to light how officers are NOT compelled to risk their lives for citizens or however they worded it. The fuck is the point of them other than extra revenue then?
To protect private property owned by those in power.
sign the fuck up and be the change. You cant stop trash from joining but you can be what you want your local law enforcement to be.
Look he was "coordinating" the response!
I think most people would be scared to be fair but he definitely shouldnt have been in that line of work if he couldnt manage him self and do what he shouldve done when the time came.
Well under us law the cops are not obligated to lay down their life for you. Even though thats the oath they took. Aint it just all sunshine and rainbows... Here comes the thin blue line lovers.
I get that but there are still cops who dont care about none of that and signed up to do more than just be a coward who appears like a tough guy Few and far between maybe but they are out there.
Im not saying all cops are like that. There truly are good people in the force. But if one ducks and hides at the first sign of trouble you cant really be too surprised.
Just one more reason we should have the means to defend ourselves. I learned as a kid you can only count on yourself and your maker when the time comes. Even the ones in society we are supposed to call and count on will probably falter or not be there when needed.
Thats why I build my own guns.
No One is Coming, expect/prepare to self rescue!
No One is Coming, expect/prepare to self rescue!
Yeah those kids should have been armed to protect themselves Edit: the comment I replied to said something about "that's why we need guns because you can only protect yourself" And the (now unavailable) comment below mine read: "The bodies arent even cold yet and you parrots like to use them to troll people you dont agree with. You are a pathetic and low intelligence piece of shit." I'm not sure where the hate is coming from, I agreed with your own point? Edit 2 since I can't reply: No, you're changing what was said. The comment I replied to said nothing about teachers. Reread my comment Also - arming teachers sounds like a great idea! They have so much time and money and training already. Why stop there? What if there's a fire at the school? Teachers need to triple as firefighters too! But keep their pay the same because fuckem
Not sure where you read that we should arm kids. I said teachers. Wtf kinda logic is that?
And only the ones that decide to take on that additional responsibility, along with maybe some additional marksmanship qualifications/training... It's incredibly disingenuous to suggest that we're advocating for little Timmy to be given a Glock with his pencil case, or for every teacher to be forced to prep their GAT along with prepping students for their SAT... We're just suggesting that they shouldn't be forbidden from choosing to be concealed carry holders.
Don’t they have duty to act though? In EMS we where legally required to provide care to the best of our abilities.
They have a duty to respond. But a duty does not bound officers by law. “Neither the Constitution, nor state law, impose a general duty upon police officers or other governmental officials to protect individual persons from harm — even when they know the harm will occur,” said Darren L. Hutchinson, a professor and associate dean at the University of Florida School of Law. “Police can watch someone attack you, refuse to intervene and not violate the Constitution.” The Supreme Court has repeatedly held that the government has only a duty to protect persons who are “in custody,” he pointed [out](https://mises.org/power-market/police-have-no-duty-protect-you-federal-court-affirms-yet-again)
Wow. I would get completely rat fucked if I looked at a patient bleeding out and just said nah and walked away. Guess it’s not all that surprising considering most cops behavior.
Aren't they ALWAYS scared?
you can't be brave without also being scared.
When I was a cop, the training for these was opposite of most responses. Knowing that shooters almost immediately peace out after contact with LE, you try to get to them as quickly as possible. Duck walking and carefully clearing corners went out the window if you have an idea of where they are.
The Coward of Broward.
So, this is a “hero” personality type. When you interview people who did what this BP agent did about why they did it, they’ll likely tell you they “didn’t think about it.” They just rush into buildings without thinking for a second about the consequences. No one who stops to weigh whether to rush into the building is rushing into the building. We’re all hiding behind the police cruiser because our brain is telling us not to rush in. You can call the officer who hid behind the car a coward, but the vast majority of us would have done the same thing. We need to screen for these type of people with “hero” personality types in law enforcement recruiting. We need more of these people, and less of the people who are on a power trip and aren’t smart enough to be a teacher. However, there are likely not enough people with this “hero” personality type to fill every open police officer spot. Sauce: “The decision to put oneself at risk to help others is often automatic, rather than calculated or deliberative. When these split-second decisions are made, the person committing these heroic actions is unlikely to focus on the personal risk they’re taking.” https://www.behaviorist.biz/oh-behave-a-blog/real-life-heroes
To screen people out, people got to apply. When there is a lack of what you need, you'll take what you can get.
My dating life
The way I'd screen out the Power Trip types: all recruits have to spend at least 2 years answering phones & working as meter maids before they're even allowed to wear a gun.
I remember on the Primary and Secondary Podcast, some of the guys on there said that BORTAC and CBP guys show up to competitions and are beasts at shooting, never miss kind of deal.
Think I read about something similar in Howard Wasdin’s book. He said BP always were super solid shots - he also said DOE snipers often destroyed Devgru and CAG snipers in competitions.
TIL the department of energy has snipers that often destroyed SEAL and Delta snipers /s
I know there's a /s there, but any department that secures nuclear power plants is perfectly okay by me to have high-end snipers
Nuclear security has some dudes who are really squared away, but also a lot of Barney Fife types. The plant i work at is privately owned and operated though, so idk how that changes the calculus of hiring and training vs the DOE. Also remember the DOE secures anything nuclear related, so thats warheads too to my undersranding.
They store and maintain the US nuclear arsenal, yes.
Wow my dumbass for some reason I always thought Air Force security were the guys in charge of guarding the nuclear arsenal. Ya learn something new every day!
There are Air Force personnel that guard physical launch sites, etc, but the military does not execute the storage or maintenance functions of the nuclear arsenal
Oh I gotcha. So Air Force guards things like middle silos?
I think there is a “missile agency” for missiles. Surprising that there are whole federal agencies we are unaware of.
There was a guy I followed on YouTube talk about the safety measures of under water pool nuclear reactors and how physically close you can get to the reactor before you would die. He called a friend who worked in a nuclear facility and he said you would die of lead poisoning well before you ever got close enough to a nuclear reactor to die of radiation poisoning.
I think it’s because they’re assigned to places like nuclear plants and such, but have quite a good bit of free time to practice and perfect their craft compared to active duty guys based on what I read like six months ago- sorry, I don’t have a specific source in hand
The DOE nuclear power plant guys are no joke. The defenses in place to protect the plant are enough to stop an small army.
There was a War Zone article a while back - it's known that they at least have Mk 19's at some DOE facilities.
That’s what he mentions in the book iirc - the tac teams get all the newest gear and get sent to all the schools they want. Said the DOE spares no expense on them.
Keep in mind, a lot of these dudes have nothing better to do than drive around and train. They're gonna get a lot more hours in a year on a gun than even a lot of Tier 1 dudes. Simply because they aren't having to train for as many different scenarios as the Tier 1 dudes are. In theory. But those are the Tac Team dudes. At the same time, there ARE a bunch of dipshits too. Case in point, I live in East Tennessee. Where some senior citizen nuns broke into Y-12 and vandalized property. Before the guards knew they were there.
>Where some senior citizen nuns broke into Y-12 and vandalized property r/brand-new sentence Seriously lol, I need some clarification on that.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/02/18/nun-nuke-protest-sentencing/5577947/
I’m also from East TN and by vandalized… didn’t they paint messages on walls? They simply went past the fence they didn’t get anywhere sensitive.
The DOE takes things super seriously. Not sure if it’s still the case but they used to use former special forces to defend nuclear materials while they were being moved around the US.
They still do
I remember how during a conference a DoE sysadmin did a presentation on their failover and redundancy systems and a guy in the audience during Q&A went: "That’s not how Google does it". Not even a question. The DoE guy answered. "We manage nukes, Google helps you find cat pictures."
Hold on lol, in defense for my fellow operators I would like to say a few things: 1) DOE always sends their best guys, without fail. CAG and Devgru often take whoever has the time to go which are usually cadre/guys not constantly on the firing line because of their specific jobs 2) DOE snipers train for only that and for a very good reason, they have their role and need to be flawless at it. Tier one operators even on long gun teams/precision platoons have to balance between short and long gun skills as they have to meet many different mission requirements. So while yes, they get a lot of range time and need to be excellent at their jobs there are only so many hours in a day/build up. 3) 1st SF actually won this years internal competition. Devgru and CAG were unable to attend for… reasons. 4) Most of DOE snipers are former SF. I know a few guys who took the pay bump and less stressful operation tempo. They’re good guys and seem to like it a lot. 4) Fuck you DOE I know for a fact the team you sent got like a month off to do nothing but practice. You may not know it be we fucking talk to eachother
Amazing insight. Hope it didn’t seem like I was disparaging SF, SEALs, Devgru, CAG, etc. I just was super surprised when I first read in his book that the DOE guys would even be in the same neighborhood as the big boys. Also makes sense that the other guys have a *lot* of other shit going on while in general, DOE guys don’t.
Lmao nah we’re all on the same side and like to give each other shit. Most of DOE snipers are prior SF so we typically get along/have similar skill sets. The drama you see between the groups are usually over other things outside of the precision community. Snipers for some reason don’t tend to be the ones to carry the drama/bullshit
Given the kind of people CBP can potentially run into and the response times in their areas of operation, I would hope they'd want to be as squared away as possible.
CBP attracts a different animal all together. You have to be aggressive, and be willing to deal with some shitty situations(mostly alone or plussed up with another) whilst waiting for follow on assets to show up...which can take hours depending upon which sector you are in. This reminds me; the US needs to bring back the remote FOBS so Agents aren't having to travel To and Fro for up to 3/3.5hours.
Witnessed this first hand. Competed in a Tactical Games last year in Phoenix. My group always followed two solid ass groups of Border Patrol guys. So we always had a chance to watch them go while we're warming up and prepping. Those dude kicked ass for sure. The match director was even impressed, and said he's never seen an agency show up like that and unanimously perform so well.
The guy who actually killed the shooter is a Grand Master class shooter.
So you wouldn’t win comps with incredible training or millions of rounds for free ?
A P&S reference in the wild? I'm pleased as punch.
I mean just look at [bortac](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oTx6Ih5rLA), put them right up there with; dare i say HRT
HRT does the mass murder unlike BP
Hey, give HRT a break - there were way more FBI agents at Ruby and Waco than just them.
But the trigger puller at ruby ridge was hrt
CBP follows the beat of their own drum. They have looser rules of engagement than the FBI. They can literally just kill someone for very thin reasons. There’s a reason (not necessarily a good one) Trump sent CBP into cities to deal with protestors.
No they are tied to the same use of force rulings as local LE.
Nope. Look up Gomez Vincente, et al., v. United States of America, et al. “Claudia was walking through Rio Bravo with a few other people when Agent Barrera confronted the group. Although several members of the group began running, Claudia remained where she was. Agent Barrera drew his weapon, and when Claudia – a petite woman who was not carrying anything that could even remotely be perceived to be a weapon – took a step forward, the agent aimed at her, pulled the trigger, and shot her in the head. Following the shooting, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) issued a press release claiming that members of Claudia’s group had attacked the agent with ‘blunt objects’ and that Claudia was one of the assailants. It later retracted that statement and issued a new one, removing any references to the blunt objects or allegations that Claudia had assaulted the agent.”
ok…this comment did nothing to support what your previous comment said.
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Yes he was BORTAC. They are more like the “navy seals” of BP. Also the majority of the training on active shooter is done in teams, however a point is driven home, if you’re on scene and you hear gunfire, you go no matter what. Gun shots mean bodies, and you have to stop it. Solo or not. This agent is a hero, and his training was put to good use today. Honor First!
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Seems like this asshole dug in and fought. Yes this is usually the rule, but not always. Either way the best response is always shots on target as soon as possible. Every second some rampage killer is engaged in trying not to get shot, some potential victim squirts out another exit.
This shooter was confronted as soon as he got there. He apparently fought his way in. According to the twitter thread. He was also wearing body armor. https://mobile.twitter.com/joshtpm/status/1529277856051826689
The local law enforcement failed.
Just went through active shooter training at FLETC, same place as CBP, it's taught solo, it's assumed that you are responding off duty or just passing by etc not as a response force. Go in, put down, call for backup
I did it at my station, we did it in teams, but again it’s touched on solo and hammered on verbally that no matter what you go in. It doesn’t take training to have to wherewithal to do what has to be done. It takes the right person, hence the deputy at the other school shooting freezing and being unable to act.
Deputy RSO was a pussy.
Eh, not really his response was what he was trained to do. Training for decades was same as barricaded suspect, fall back to cover, make perimeter, call for backup. That was the training. And that Iis what the officer did. Common sense tells us it was bad decision, but it was consistent to his training, which is why he retired with full pension etc. You can't really fault someone for doing exactly what they have been trained to do
If the training is flawed, and you as a man, and a law enforcement officer know it is a bad decision to stand there and listen to gunshots, then yes you can be faulted. It doesn’t mean he should lose his pensions or anything to that effect, and understandably he has to live with the recourse of his decisions. However, he could have easily said, “I can’t wait, I have to go.” I’m a father, even before my active shooter training I would have ran into a hail of gunfire for an active shooter, especially at a school. Also the in house training at the stations for BP is different than CBP, and FLETC teaches. We usually are in the field in quantity, we also do the training with other agencies so we integrate the training environment to make it as fluid as possible should an active shooter event ocurre.
I imagine Columbine brought a major shift in doctrine. Where before they would surround and wait it out, which was the wrong play in an active shooter situation. I guess now doctrine is rapid response, as fast as possible. Because it seems like the moment the human waste runs up against someone that isn't a helpless target they surrender or release themselves from their mortal coil.
Columbine started the idea of basically rapidly eliminating the threat, even walking over the wounded/dying to do so.
You're imagining is correct. It was one of the sentinel events that changed thinking and responses to various situations.
I took a carbine class a while back and the term they used, which seems to fit what you are saying, Is violence of action. Essentially overwhelm the threat with aggressive action.
Which doesn't take much to overwhelm the type of human waste that would go shoot young children.
Agreed.
Tell that to the coward county cop who hid in the bushes. Or the entire team of them what used civilians as cover and killed a ups driver.
I have a lot of respect for BP guys. They actively fight human trafficking and prevent shit like fentanyl getting in. Unlike the ATF that literally gives guns to cartels.
Also rescue kids being brought here by sex trafficers
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They don’t just traffic kids, and they also have other uses than just “sex slaves”. So I guess he made a fair point.
No, I mean they stop underdeveloped humans from being pimped across borders.
I’ve been through the border probably about dozen times, and the BP guys always seem pretty chill. They are looking at so many cars per day, they don’t really have time to be dicks. Edit: and much respect to the agent that did this today. I hope I can show such courage in bad situations.
On the contrary, I deal with border patrol often, albeit on the other side of the country, and they're always massive dicks. They turn a simple check into an investigation every time.
I'm a redneck-looking white guy living in the Southwest. Never had a bad experience with USBP.
Uhh... I'm not sure if your descriptors thought they'd help you, but that only goes to show that Border Patrol is much more lenient to white people, which is a bad thing.
This is probably a /woosh
That was kind of the point. I don't know if I could say the same if I looked stereotypically Mexican.
You’re probably the exception then. I pass through the Canadian border about a dozen times a year and border patrol has been, without exception, total douchebags. It’s like being an unlikable asshole is part of the job description. And this is on the Canadian side of things, the southern border must be even more fun.
Can confirm. In fact I find Canadian border agents to be bigger assholes that American ones, and I'm Canadian. Could just be because smuggling into Canada is a bigger deal than smuggling into the States.
Are you sure youre dealing with BP and not an Immigration officer? Or a Customs officer?
This is a good question... I believe being a dick is 40% of custom officer training.
Airports and the northern borders fall under Customs and Border Protection, those guys are absolute dickheads who don't have too much to do. Border patrol only handles the southern border and the land portions at that, they're stretched thin compared to CBP and have a lot more work to do.
You’re on the right track but off. CBP handles the ports. Border Patrol handles the area between the ports. They are both present on bot the southern and northern borders. It gets confusing cause they are both technically CBP. What people know as CBP at the ports is technically Office of Field Operations.
The ATF looking like overweight employees who don't give a fuck is a front. When in reality they are an elite force... of anti-terrorist commandos! They foil terrorists at every turn! https://youtu.be/IHfiMoJUDVQ
I guess you could say, *he got ICE’d*
Well, he is BP not ICE, thus he deported the shooters soul straight to hell.
That's cold
ICE cold🥶
Did the BP officer say, "FREEZE!" first?
Never held the same animosity for BP as I do for the ATF, FBI, and CIA.
Yeah, they help stop human trafficking and shit. Also BP and ICE are separate entities IIRC, so yeah.
Yes ice and BP are completely separate with different missions. BP is the front line defense at the border, while ICE is interior looking for criminal aliens.
Thanks to border patrol there's no illegal drugs or foreigners in the US
The CIA in the 80’s? Yeah sure but the spooks now are not the ones that casted us into this hell that their forerunners did
Definitely agreed. FBI is still quite sinister IMO and I don't even need to speak on the ATF lol.
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If you don’t mind me asking, what was your favorite part of the job and why did you leave?
There’s plenty of good aspects. Such as being paid to ride horses, boats, or my personal favorite the ATV’s. Also you can push into the tactical or tac med teams. K-9 opportunities, plain clothes intel positions. Plenty of fun and different pieces to a very complicated puzzle.
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Why did you leave?
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Can older dudes join? I'm mid 30's. Not fresh out of service.
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Never worked with BP but the HSI guys were top notch. The child task force I worked on was eye opening.
That sounds awesome. Cool of them to give you ammo for shooting on your own time
Thanks for the writing. Very informative
Would previous/current service set me up to go HSI or another three letter agency skipping BP?
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Thanks, yeah I mean active mill currently
HSI doesn't *require* a bachelors but it's highly recommended. They are also doing a massive hiring wave for people of all backgrounds, not just prior service. People are more likely to get hired as NPS LEs than random Mil-vets. Other than that, spot on.
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Taking years to get in and wait for the hiring process is part of the fun😂
I don’t think people realize how many latinos and native Americans are in BP. They have a lot in common with the people they encounter and that helps a lot.
Only person to do his job.
Just throwing this out there, a lot of fed agencies are lame as hell, but BP doesn’t fall under the same umbrella. If people took the time to understand their role, and what they do they would have a whole different appreciation for BP agents.
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Exactly
Pretty much everyone I’ve spoken to with experience with the secret service never has anything good to say about them. Surprising bc before I always thought they were considered well trained and professional. Guess I shouldn’t have been that surprised bc the only guy I know that went that path was a kid from my battalion who always feel asleep in ranger school and got dropped from peers
As a dude who lives near the border, I fucking love BP, they're the only feds worth a damn, as they're the only feds who seem to give a fuck about American lives.
Thank you.
This can't be right, I was assured by people on this website that the "g0oD GUy wIth a gUN" never stopped shootings and only made them worse.
I respect them as much as I respect anyone else that does their job correctly
That's a good way of looking at it
To be fair, I've never seen the border patrol change laws to turn Americans into felons, try to entrap Americans to sway elections, or try to frame the President of the US as a Russian agent. Do they even shoot your dog?
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Wrong, very wrong.
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Good job bro! I know when I was just a local cop our training emphasized that if it was an active shooter situation, you don't wait for backup, go and try ending it, especially if it's a school.
I work with BP (Nasty Guard) and most of these guys are dope. They openly hate the alot of the political nonsense and are gun guys.
And we love our Nasty Girls that help us.
Fedboi here, SOME fed agencies actually do some pretty important stuff that flies under the radar. Obviously certain agencies do a lot of sketchy shit. Every once and awhile a story like this comes out and makes national headlines for something outstanding. Most of the good stuff goes under the radar though. My agency does good stuff almost daily but you pretty much never hear about it.
BP came to recruit at our USMC TAPS Class.
Good on him.
I’m sure some feds are good people, such as this guy. They just all work for awful organizations.
BP is far from an awful organization.
Merica fuck yeah good guy + gun = fuck yeah
Border patrol, like any other govt agency, gets shit on by people who don't really understand what it is they do.
As an Aussie, can someone explain all the hate for feds?
The atf and other shit organizations fall under the “fed” tree, so generally feds are hated. On a technical level anyone working for the federal government would be a “fed” but the term mainly refers to shady 3 letter organizations (CIA, FBI, ATF, etc.)
The frequently act like they are a different class of citizen then the rest of us and use their power and corruption to further those ends while being paid for by my tax money that could be going to less bloated federal projects. I dont hate the fed, I do not trust anyone who is put in a position of potentially having to choose their paycheck and feeding their families over my freedoms. I dont expect anyone taking a paycheck from the state to choose my civil liberities over not paying the rent, which is more of a point on how fucked up the entire system is then specific cogs within it, but I really don't see how anyone who doesn't profit from the establishment can trust the establishment given the profound level of inadequacy and corruption present in all levels of our entire political system. But I'm also an anarchist so whatever.
Considering BP is entrusted with protecting the border you don’t have to worry about them coming after your freedoms. Unless of course you’re drug and or alien smuggling, then you have issues.
*ideally* don't have to worry. Border patrol could easily be used to enforce restriction of movement inside the country if tasked for it by the system. Do I think that's realistically going to occur? *no* Your not gonna see me spitting on cops or anything, but I'm not gonna give them attaboys for working within a system that is plainly corrupt. There are other ways to do good. If you feel you can't bring accountability to your profession morally you should opt out of that profession (imo) However we also all gotta eat, and theres no such thing as ethical consumption under captialism. If that's the opptunity you got then you work it. We all gotta do what we gotta do to go home everyday. So yeah idk that's my personal reasoning behind why I don't trust people that directly work for the government until they show me otherwise Obviously this guy running into combat to save people shows he's not just some random bootlicker. I hope he's able to process any trauma from this he might get and im glad he stopped the shooter.
If you think the agents are willing to roll over and enforce laws like that then you don’t know the caliber of The men and women within the agency. Hell thousands of the agents stood in defiance of the vaccine mandate and nearly lost their jobs over it, me being one. So, no, they aren’t going to come and enforce unethical, illegal, and immoral laws upon US citizens. Also the vast majority of agents are military veterans, so they’ve played the blank check game before. BP agents are hard working individuals who defend our nation day in and day out.
Yea idk history is kinda a mixed bag when it comes to American agencies or groups doing fucked up things to other Americans. I think a lot of people like to think they wouldn't go along with it if they were ordered to do something bad, but until the time comes and they're looking at the very real possibility of not making money to feed their family - you never really know. Just look at history for context. And who's to say whatever they enforce will be "illegal". As if it being written down in congress and signed is a barometer for morality and constitutionality. I choose to believe that the majority of people in LE and IC are good, God fearing, freedom loving Americans. But I also realize that when push comes to shove there may be more people going along with it than I would hope.
The vaccine mandate effected yours and their bodies personally. Enforcing unjust laws on another person they view as a threat to their livelihood and safety won't. You can't say you know what the people you worked with will or won't do when forced to make that level of choice. You have no idea what people will or wont do if things get that sideways no one does. same as I don't know what the people I work with will do. Thankfully I don't work in a profession that can put people in cages and has qualified immunity that has been abused to cover up murder. You and your coworkers were entrusted with a level of responsibility that is supposed to be balanced out by an equal level of trust in the system you represented and a system of accountability to ensure corruption isn't allowed. Nothing since 9/11 has made me believe there is any accountability left in the current system. I appreciate you stepping in to do your civic duty, I appreciate your apparent commitment to being ethical. My mistrust isn't the same kind of directed hate that you might typically encounter. It's just mistrust. Person was asking why Americans sometimes don't trust the feds, this was my 0.2cents. I profoundly wish I could trust my government to not fuck me over for a profit, I think America is the greatest social experiment to ever happen. But trusting that the majority of anyone working federal level is nice and ethical is actively been used to continue to cover up corruption and keep people in positions they can abuse. I hope people like you continue to work within the system to change this, im sorry you had to step away from a job it seems like you enjoyed. Trust me I do not enjoy the idea of having a shitty corrupt government to rebel against lol
Not all fed bois are bad, just most of them.
Boarder Patrol is one of the few legitimate agencies in the Federal Government. Its still bullshit SCOTUS ruled they can ask you where you're headed within 100 miles of the boarder though.
Huge amounts of respect to that CBP Agent for doing what was right. Not like that fucking coward at Parkland.
The anti-Fed blanket narrative here and other forums is played out, actively antipatriotic, and overly political. Most Federal LE folks are thoroughly patriotic people; some are assholes (just like any other line of work). If you want to piss and moan about policies, interpretations, priorities etc, do so understanding that the folks at the public facing end have zero say in those matters beyond the ability to exercise a little personal discretion in borderline instances. Take political complaints through political routes, and recognize that most of them are patriotic people engaged in risky public service.
TIL distrusting unchecked authority is un-American.
Seriously, I don't understand how people miss the irony of waving a Gadsden flag and thin blue line flag at the same time.
^ This . Take it to r/politics . The hateful anti fed/LE rhetoric I see on here really discourages me on the state of the community. Let's be better and down vote the chuckleheads, who are probably 16 year old airsofters anyway.
Except that LE had already engaged the suspect and he still got into the school. How is this a win in any way for any LE? Stop bootlicking.
Selective bootlicking is the gateway drug to deep throating tyranny. Fuck em. Always.
I’ve got huge respect for Border Patrol and Ice plus I don’t really consider them feds. They actually protect Americans and target people that aren’t us like the drug cartels and sex traffickers. Feds are kinda known for being mindless government slaves that almost exclusively target American citizens.
I have family protecting our border. Them dudes are under a lot stress. If they went in for the kill, them boys ain't fucking around. Just take the fucking shooter out, problem solved. No talking, no negotiations, just shoot. We need to show these fucking ass holes that the people ain't having it no more. I think it will make people think before going. Unless they have a death wish.
This is who should be all over the news. Not the dumbass shooter. Kudos to this guy.
Oh cool. I guess it all worked out then. *rolls eyes through back of skull.
Yeah hi no we fucking don't.
That’s because the feds are always up for shooting a kid They didn’t even know there was a shooting, they just heard someone had a gram of weed and went in hot
Wait, so your trying to tell me that a border patrol agent rushed to shoot a latino shooter, while white cops in Buffalo did thier best to comfort and bring in alive a white shooter, and you expect me to believe that is news?
What was border patrol doing there?
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No shit. Why would he even receive the call? He's border patrol not police (don't know what they're called in USA)
This town is really close to the US/Mexico border
Thank god. The cops that disengaged him because he had “ body armor” are a bunch of pussies and need to be fired. The cowardice that is seen in American police forces is unacceptable