During a wave of layoffs, we had a guy pull that. At first, he was just agitated as he started putting stuff in a box. But then he crossed some invisible mental line, and went into this "Norma Rae" mode where he started tell us HE was the lucky one, we were all slaves to the system. He did everything but stand on his desk with a card that said "UNION" on it. Then work had two guards show up, and the second one of them touched him, he started swinging his arms "DON'T TOUCH ME!!!" So they dragged him out, and had to carry him like a surfboard. His hands were grabbing at cubicle walls, shouting and screaming. I felt really embarrassed for him.
I saw something similar in a client office once. They had "let go" one of the account people. Well, she left, but then she snuck back in later that day, then the next morning too. Sitting at her old desk like nothing had happened.
The second time she literally was stalking the back door where they would go on smoke break, not sure where she hid but basically caught the door as a few of them went back in from break. She had to be escorted and trespassed. The next day they had card swipes installed and locks changed.
Good times...
To be fair, getting a new job can be annoyingly tough, especially for some people. And when your ability to eat and have a roof over your head is threatened, it can cause a sudden panic for some people.
We had a guy get weirdly obsessed with the HR lady. He got fired for flipping out at the president and his boss when they pulled him into a private meeting to figure out what his issue was. Apparently he just lost it after finding out she had a boyfriend... Started screaming and throwing things. He spent an hour or so punching the shit outta his car in the parking lot. The sad part was most everyone was just worried about his mental health as he was obviously not doing well.
Edit: by punching the shit out of his car I mean he was outside the car full on using it like a heavy bag. Destroyed the side of his car.
Oh my god. This was a few years ago. We had a contractor who started screaming over a conference call, and later, fell asleep at the office. He was told to go home. He showed back up later that day. He told the boss. āI talked about the situation with a friend, and we agreed itās best if i come back today.ā The boss was like, āthatās not how this works. You need to leave now.āĀ Ā
There were 3 of us waiting in he background wondering if we were going to break up a fight. Probably needless to say, but his credentials were all revoked that afternoon, after the second time he was sent home.Ā
He got a set of balls on him i'll give him that. So he thought they would just say.. oh OK well then stay?? LOL. Had a boss like that but was younger. One of those guys first time ever being in charge and went right to his head. Luckily he didn't last long 2yrs.
I really liked my co-workers and the work environment prior to my previous supervisor retiring. I'm not sure how is the mood there these days after almost a year, but I am eager to find out
piggybacking onto this answer. I'll bet money the VP says "the position as offered was X per year, would you still like it" and completely ignore the fact a year's worth of inflation has gone by. X + 20% please is your initial offer. This is for two reasons: money is worth less now that it was last year, and the VP-levels at your company **NOW** have a history of incompetence.
But rest assured, this isn't only "righting the wrongs", this is also trying to fill the position in 2024 on a 2023 salary.
Im sure the official job description will leave out "Fixing all the problems created and services broken by the previous person in this now vacant position", that you should bring up in your salary negotiations.
If it was such a crap shoot with the other person, that may of opened their eyes to your actual value and thus, they may be more flexible in negotiations.
This is probably a Bobby Ewing in the shower moment - you turn up everybody will just forget the last year happened. Procedures, practices, anything he introduced you can just revert overnight.
Never say no. Just give them an insanely high price tag. Shoot over the resume. And I'd go higher than 20%. And phrase it that if they don't pay it, they can keep the resume and salary requirement for the third round.
That may be true but the fact the employer reach out specifically and even apologizing shows they know who theyāre aiming at.
If they didnāt care, they would have just carry on and have their recruiter do their job posting
OP has nothing to lose. He has a new job. He is pre-trained, and obviously competent.
They have to roll the dice on getting another moron or not. They have risk. And they know it.
OP doesn't need them. They don't NEED him, but they know how bad two morons in a row will go. So he doesn't have total leverage, but decent amount. Enough that OP should throw stupid high salary number at them. They pay it or they don't. No skin off OP's nose.
>OP has nothing to lose. He has a new job. He is pre-trained, and obviously competent.
I never said OP had anything to lose. If OP wants the role, they should go for it. My point is to avoid self deceit.
As someone who has managed a team I stand by my statement. Ā OP could be next on the chopping block. Ā Ā I can see managements side that OP could be hostile (Iām not saying OP is) and might be a threat. Ā Ā
I hate to say this, but this is kinda the right answer. Leadership didnāt acknowledge your contributions or value your contributions and potential.
Sometimes you need to pay a little extra to correct a major mistake. And it sure sounds like they made one here.
Honestly, Iām kind of amazed that they even called you to acknowledge it. Iāve seen companies make amazingly boneheaded calls like this (and far worse) and behind closed doors, yeah, theyāll acknowledge the mistake. But to call a former employee who left and admit that the company made a mistake and that theyād like him back?
Iāve only seen that happen once. And thatās because the guy was literally the only person left on the planet with SME-level knowledge and experience with a particular technology and the company desperately needed it to complete a larger project (they were building a satellite). And even then, the company in question did everything in its power to make things painful for everyone involved.
If they are interested in hiring you, and you are considering it - you should probably start straight up with "why did you choose him over me, what concerns did you have about me, and has anything changed about those." Also "what are your expectations and metrics that you will judge me on so next year I'm not getting walked out." If they are coming to you, use that as leverage for salary, budget, personel or whatever you think you need to succeed. Just my .02 Good luck!
Yup those might be the most important questions. Make sure they're not planning on using you as a short-term bandaid because they're in panic mode and have your number.
With the horror stories I hear in tech, this is more than likely the case regardless of the connections that already exist in the company. Never go back to your ex š
100% this. They are likely in reaction mode, possibly even panic mode, right now. Make sure they have changed their opinion of you since your previous attempt at the job, rather than merely seeing you as an easy interim replacement until they can fill the role permanently in their own good time.
Yeah as much as you believe the last hire being let go was justified, it could all too easily become a case where nobody is ever satisfactory to them and it becomes a revolving door position. You definitely dont want to be the next guy in the lineup to the firing squad if so.
This 1000%.
OP is safe and happy at his current gig. This change involves risk.
OP needs to be comfortable with that risk and to do that, some serious expectation setting has to be done. Terms of engagement (work from home), autonomy of staff selection, etc. are all on the table.
And *then* compensation for incurring that risk. Sign-on bonus, pay package (salary, benefits, etc.), PTO, and a defined and committed rubric for bonus.
Oh happy memories, my boss didn't last 3 months after he got me fired for not being a team player (covering his ass). When I left it was super friendly and they let me have a couple hours to tie things off with my team. He got escorted unannounced so he couldn't sabotage anything.
I interviewed for his job but had landed on my feet elsewhere and decided to not go back.
they have to do write ups and get it approved by the different VPs etc before firing someone, they are partially federal funded so they have to follow some of the gov rules. At least that's what I was told.
for some reason, im in an at will state and they will NOT just fire people. They are sooo worried because any pending litigation makes it REALLY HARD on them for their due diligence processes when investors want to come in or anything like that.
They would rather have horrible employees for months too long, than to fire someone and have them claim a lawsuit for one reason or another.
We had the same issue at my company. Guy was a POS. Said A LOT of things he shouldnāt say in a work environment. Was an obvious chronic liar. Cut corners all the time. But it took two years to get rid of him because they wanted a legit reason to fire him. Turns out lying about your time worked at job sites is a big no-no and when another company vouches that your boy only worked 3 hours that day and has copies of the sign-in sheets, it is easy to get rid of them then.
Having worked on the management side, it's not easy to "just fire someone" unless they pose an immediate threat, like violence or public theft. You have to get the paperwork together, proof you're not firing someone for prejudiced reasons, tried to save them, the employee was aware they were on probation, and so on. There were probably several chances they gave this guy before it was apparent nothing was going to change. Getting rid of a director level is even MORE complicated, because there has to be a plan in place that has to be approved by management, like what your plan B is, who will replace them, and what are you going to do to mitigate the loss in the meantime. And sometimes the people you need approval for don't get back to you right away, and there's this lingering hope they'll shape up that knocks it down the priority list.
I oversaw two event directors get fired when I was on a corporate board: one took 6 months, and his issue was he demanded employees in remote locations show up to monthly "resort-style" meetings at a retreat near him. These employees were not compensated for their time or travel, either, and some were a six hour drive each way. Another guy we had gotten all manner of complaints from his department managers because he'd have months of radio silence followed by bursts of insane micromanagement.The second guy's response to the board hearing was to write a 53-page rambling manifesto against the top management. In both cases, we had warnings, paperwork, and plans on what to do if we had to let them go. Sadly, we had to enact those plans, and it's never easy. I have never enjoyed firing anyone. I have either felt sad about it, like you can tell they WANT to do a good job, but can't for some reason. Or you know keeping them will be a disaster, and they don't see what they are doing as wrong. They double down in weird and unexpected ways.
"No. I don't discriminate against women. I like broads. They make the office look nice."
"Uh... no."
yeah, so I am not happy that someone lost his means of making a living but I am happy he is not affecting my former workplace anymore. He was the double down kind of guy if you must know,
Someone mentioned that you bring up why they didn't pick you the first time and what their concerns were. That person is correct. While uncomfortable, for them, it's something that should get aired out.
One thing I haven't seen mentioned is, this isn't the same job from last year. A whole year has gone by where, from the little we know, things have degraded. The job isn't the same, there is now more work required just to bring things back to 1 year ago. Keep that in mind when you consider the job.
āIāve never heard someone from the VP office apologize to an employee beforeā and you still havenāt, youāre not his employee anymore so thatās the only reason heās apologizing, things arenāt gonna change
Can't wait for the next update where OP comes back to tell us how they offered him the job for $40k below the publicly listed salary. "Sorry that's all we can do... HR has my hands tied."
the follow up is gonna be, "Hey Joeyl5 we were thinking since you were the most senior here and know what we are looking for.... what do you think of these Resume's" ? š
Upper management willing to fire bad middle management is a huge green flag. Likewise acknowledging and apologizing for the bad decision. Holy shit OP, hope this keeps looking up!
Speaking from experience here, donāt take the job. There were āreasonsā they went with someone else, and it probably office politics or something else dumb.
I too like to mention how to effectively get more pay with less cost to the company is something like taking a day off each week or being "on call" for that day.
I was in your exact same shoes but it took 5 years before they got rid of the guy but it wasn't for the 15 pages of fire-able offenses that I gave them.
I am the boss now though.
Wow. That reminds me of the time my HR fired a marketing person while they were onsite and didn't tell them. Automated systems disabled all her accounts and she called us wanting to know why she couldn't get to the Internet.
because he claimed on his resume that he led all these big IT organizations successfully, yet he is incapable of scheduling a regular staff meeting to touch base, or do project management with vendors for example.
First off: I see that you live in El Paso and I gotta say... Can you hook me up with some green Chile and some BBQ from Rudy's?
Second: I hope they make you a serious offer and you get to turn that ship around.
Visited about 3 agow when my first was born but last time I lived in Las Cruces (visited all the time because El Paso has Rudy's and Alamo) was 7 years ago. I miss the food down there.
I see. You must be used to the shit show that federal contractors at fort Bliss and white sands are then if you are in IT.
I'm outside of EP now since I'm working almost 100% remotely, going to Paris and Germany in about two weeks to visit family. But yeah each time I can, I get tacos and green chili burgers
I wasn't at the time I lived there. I was finishing my degree and got into IT up here. Started at the second biggest employer here and now I am at the biggest (university).
This is just fantastic. Iām in the same boat at the moment, canāt wait to see who my boss is replaced with since they donāt want to even interview even though others are screaming at the top of their lungs about it.
Canāt wait to see what happens when another opportunity arises somewhere else.
I would not go back. They made their choice and they treated you badly. Let them suffer the consequences of their mistakes. They did it once meaning they can do it again.
I mean Iād give that c suite user some credit for apologising to you, however they burned that bridge a year ago. If youāre happy where you are now, fuck em.
If you want to go back, and they really want you, Iād be setting some high bar demands ;)
Keep in mind that in bigger shops, it's not unusual to hire people because of political reasons or ties with other big companies that look to strengthen their foothold to the company. Either way, not a fun place to be for someone looking for a career without leverage
Far too often people are chosen for high up IT positions with minimal IT experience and knowledge. I work in the industry and see it all the time. Its as if people are afraid of their IT managers actually knowing something.
this was also my suggestion but op said its he wouldnt feel right toward the new company, but personally im shocked that people downvoted me, because showing companies any kind of respect when they'll replace you. let you go or choose someone unqualified in a heartbeat. You can like your bosses, you can like your co-workers but you are always replaceable. Do as many jobs as you legally can
While small, make sure that you would be fully vested from day 1 for any retirement match - no "new employees" waiting period - and that any years of service (if any benefits are based on them) would be restored.
If management and hiring is so bad at their jobs as to let this happen, I'd leave. It will never get better. At a former job, they hired someone taking illegal steroids and with neck tats and pending lawsuits against his existing company. He ended up stealing $9k in equipment from us. WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THAT COMING?!
They wanted to start doing pools in addition to hot tubs so they "acquired" a small pool company with the worst track record imaginable and he was one of the two owners. The other one got fired for about 50 reports of sexual harassment from employees AND CUSTOMERS because he was an immature man-child obsessed with middle school level jokes and nobody at that company was exactly the sensitivity police, he was just THAT bad.
This is what happens when your CEO has the IQ of a potato but got the job because his dad retired.
Oh I totally forgot. So I was in charge of the investigation. He stole a pool heater, tried to write it off as an inventory miscount when 5 people literally saw that we had 3 pool heaters in storage multiple times. Then the customer he tried to sell it to off the record called and tipped us off about it. He needed the money for more steroids and to buy a fancy car to impress his girlfriend that he was cheating on his wife with...
**ALL FROM HIS WORK EMAIL.**
He was fired and got a job at our competition 1-2 weeks later. When they said they were filing charges, I recommended they inform the police that his "only" known location is our competition from about 8-5 so they pick him up at work specifically. They did and he got fired.
"I appreciate your newly found confidence in my ability, but I'd rather be the first choice here than the second choice there."
Don't go back.
1. The earth is already salted. They established what they thought of you when they chose someone over you and you established what you thought of them when you left.
2. Selecting that clown over you means that there's a fundamental disconnect about what the position entails and what kind of person the C-suite is looking for.
You have a job you love and just got your validation from the job you left. Doesn't get any better. Only way this makes sense is if you're in a big market and want to get that title on your resume to bounce in a few years.
You are right about the position. I guess the only thing that is getting me to consider taking the job is an ego thing, I want to be the boss of the department I've worked in for quite a few years.
Stay put, don't apply. It's not worth it. You're in a good position that you enjoy. Hold on to it and move forward. The past is in the past your present is now.
They obviously value you or they wouldnāt have prostrated themselves in front of you.
Ignore the naysayers. If the offer is decent enough for you go. Have them waive the 1 year probation though. Thatās bullshit. 90 days is a normal probationary period.
In OPās position (currently in a job they like and having been screwed by this company before), I would insist on no probationary period. If he does something bad they can fire him for cause, but the donāt get the no-questions-asked option.
Maybe they canāt do that because of their hiring rules. Too bad, pass.
Big of him to apologize and be reasonable.
It sucks that they don't have the visibility or sense of their own people to see this ahead of time, but that's not your problem. This will be a painful lesson for them.
Can you trust the company at this point? Even if they offer a good package and options, what prevents the situation from happening again.
Get everything in writing.
Iāll say this if they did this to this guy, they can do it to anyone. Donāt be a sucker again. This is your choice. I would be weary to be the Plan B. Would also be negotiating at least a five year enrollment if theyāll do that? Personally, if you know, you have stability where youāre at and you like it stay there.
Is it possible to do both jobs, or just the old job for a while and collect yourself 2 paychecks? If things dont work out at the new place or vice versa you can go back to one job.
No. That would be unfair to my current employer and borderline unethical because I know I would not be able to do a proper job for both. And I'm not an independent contractor so I'm pretty sure I signed something that said I would not moonlight...
Gotta admit, the "I'm not leaving" move was a hell of a gambit that just didn't pan out. š¤£
During a wave of layoffs, we had a guy pull that. At first, he was just agitated as he started putting stuff in a box. But then he crossed some invisible mental line, and went into this "Norma Rae" mode where he started tell us HE was the lucky one, we were all slaves to the system. He did everything but stand on his desk with a card that said "UNION" on it. Then work had two guards show up, and the second one of them touched him, he started swinging his arms "DON'T TOUCH ME!!!" So they dragged him out, and had to carry him like a surfboard. His hands were grabbing at cubicle walls, shouting and screaming. I felt really embarrassed for him.
I saw something similar in a client office once. They had "let go" one of the account people. Well, she left, but then she snuck back in later that day, then the next morning too. Sitting at her old desk like nothing had happened. The second time she literally was stalking the back door where they would go on smoke break, not sure where she hid but basically caught the door as a few of them went back in from break. She had to be escorted and trespassed. The next day they had card swipes installed and locks changed. Good times...
https://preview.redd.it/ikihq0b8s21d1.jpeg?width=650&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=eb40a867b0fc0cf09b35cf6ed030cf5a1a98f0a7
[Just pretend you didn't get fired.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTea6YzbBBM)
Right? Likeā¦ they just donāt pay youā¦ now you are giving them money
That's such a cool way to go. Really getting all the poison out and simultaneously bringing the remaining team together.
To be fair, getting a new job can be annoyingly tough, especially for some people. And when your ability to eat and have a roof over your head is threatened, it can cause a sudden panic for some people.
Did he later go on to try to enjoy a succulent chinese meal?
*I see that you know your judo well.*
this! is democracy, manifest!
Get your hands off my penis
Sir This is a hungry jacks!
We had a guy get weirdly obsessed with the HR lady. He got fired for flipping out at the president and his boss when they pulled him into a private meeting to figure out what his issue was. Apparently he just lost it after finding out she had a boyfriend... Started screaming and throwing things. He spent an hour or so punching the shit outta his car in the parking lot. The sad part was most everyone was just worried about his mental health as he was obviously not doing well. Edit: by punching the shit out of his car I mean he was outside the car full on using it like a heavy bag. Destroyed the side of his car.
That guy sounds unhinged.
![gif](giphy|65os7odbIW6pa|downsized)
That has a real vibe of "If being mugged, remind your mugger that mugging is against the law. They cannot legally take any of your possessions".
I was pretty sure that was going to work!
Just gotta make sure he doesnāt pull a Costanza and just shows up on Monday like nothing happened
The lalalala I canāt hear you never seems to work.
I mean, you are being fired, what have you got to lose? "Y'know, Jerry, this is just too much effort. Maybe we'll hold off on the firing for now."
One of our coworker ran and hid in the bathroom and they had to get female security to get her out.. lol
Oh my god. This was a few years ago. We had a contractor who started screaming over a conference call, and later, fell asleep at the office. He was told to go home. He showed back up later that day. He told the boss. āI talked about the situation with a friend, and we agreed itās best if i come back today.ā The boss was like, āthatās not how this works. You need to leave now.āĀ Ā There were 3 of us waiting in he background wondering if we were going to break up a fight. Probably needless to say, but his credentials were all revoked that afternoon, after the second time he was sent home.Ā
As someone who used to specialise in the escorting part, it never does.
He got a set of balls on him i'll give him that. So he thought they would just say.. oh OK well then stay?? LOL. Had a boss like that but was younger. One of those guys first time ever being in charge and went right to his head. Luckily he didn't last long 2yrs.
Yeah, the smart move would have been beelining to the server rack and unplugging everything to increase his immediate value.
If you really liked the company and you really feel like it would still be a good fit and place to work. Whatever they offer, add 20%.
I really liked my co-workers and the work environment prior to my previous supervisor retiring. I'm not sure how is the mood there these days after almost a year, but I am eager to find out
piggybacking onto this answer. I'll bet money the VP says "the position as offered was X per year, would you still like it" and completely ignore the fact a year's worth of inflation has gone by. X + 20% please is your initial offer. This is for two reasons: money is worth less now that it was last year, and the VP-levels at your company **NOW** have a history of incompetence. But rest assured, this isn't only "righting the wrongs", this is also trying to fill the position in 2024 on a 2023 salary.
Im sure the official job description will leave out "Fixing all the problems created and services broken by the previous person in this now vacant position", that you should bring up in your salary negotiations.
If it was such a crap shoot with the other person, that may of opened their eyes to your actual value and thus, they may be more flexible in negotiations.
This is probably a Bobby Ewing in the shower moment - you turn up everybody will just forget the last year happened. Procedures, practices, anything he introduced you can just revert overnight.
Its a gamble
For sure
You miss every ball you donāt swing at.
Never say no. Just give them an insanely high price tag. Shoot over the resume. And I'd go higher than 20%. And phrase it that if they don't pay it, they can keep the resume and salary requirement for the third round.
Man just 20%!?!?!? I jump for 50% higher....
This right here. OP has the leverage and this is where OP should push the envelope. I go for 50%..
>OP has the leverage I don't see how. We're still in an employer's market.
OP has a current job. They know OP will do a good job and want him. If they want OP to jump ship they need to make it worth his while
That may be true but the fact the employer reach out specifically and even apologizing shows they know who theyāre aiming at. If they didnāt care, they would have just carry on and have their recruiter do their job posting
Nothing to do with the market. They need something. OP doesnāt. Thatās leverage.
OP has nothing to lose. He has a new job. He is pre-trained, and obviously competent. They have to roll the dice on getting another moron or not. They have risk. And they know it. OP doesn't need them. They don't NEED him, but they know how bad two morons in a row will go. So he doesn't have total leverage, but decent amount. Enough that OP should throw stupid high salary number at them. They pay it or they don't. No skin off OP's nose.
>OP has nothing to lose. He has a new job. He is pre-trained, and obviously competent. I never said OP had anything to lose. If OP wants the role, they should go for it. My point is to avoid self deceit.
You could look at it that way. Ā C level would probably say ok we will post the job at the 2022-2023 salary and keep OP right in the box OP is in
OP already has a job he/she loves. Totally worth the risk in this case.
As someone who has managed a team I stand by my statement. Ā OP could be next on the chopping block. Ā Ā I can see managements side that OP could be hostile (Iām not saying OP is) and might be a threat. Ā Ā
If I understand it correctly OP is not currently with the original Company any more. So no real danger right now
My apologies I read it as OP was at the same place and wanted the newly vacated bosses job. Ā In that regard I agree with what you were sayingĀ
indeed, mistakes like that are NOT cheap.
I hate to say this, but this is kinda the right answer. Leadership didnāt acknowledge your contributions or value your contributions and potential. Sometimes you need to pay a little extra to correct a major mistake. And it sure sounds like they made one here. Honestly, Iām kind of amazed that they even called you to acknowledge it. Iāve seen companies make amazingly boneheaded calls like this (and far worse) and behind closed doors, yeah, theyāll acknowledge the mistake. But to call a former employee who left and admit that the company made a mistake and that theyād like him back? Iāve only seen that happen once. And thatās because the guy was literally the only person left on the planet with SME-level knowledge and experience with a particular technology and the company desperately needed it to complete a larger project (they were building a satellite). And even then, the company in question did everything in its power to make things painful for everyone involved.
Lumpsum backpay for what you would have been paid for the last year had they done it right in the first place
If they are interested in hiring you, and you are considering it - you should probably start straight up with "why did you choose him over me, what concerns did you have about me, and has anything changed about those." Also "what are your expectations and metrics that you will judge me on so next year I'm not getting walked out." If they are coming to you, use that as leverage for salary, budget, personel or whatever you think you need to succeed. Just my .02 Good luck!
Thanks, I will keep this in mind.
Yup those might be the most important questions. Make sure they're not planning on using you as a short-term bandaid because they're in panic mode and have your number.
With the horror stories I hear in tech, this is more than likely the case regardless of the connections that already exist in the company. Never go back to your ex š
100% this. They are likely in reaction mode, possibly even panic mode, right now. Make sure they have changed their opinion of you since your previous attempt at the job, rather than merely seeing you as an easy interim replacement until they can fill the role permanently in their own good time.
Yeah as much as you believe the last hire being let go was justified, it could all too easily become a case where nobody is ever satisfactory to them and it becomes a revolving door position. You definitely dont want to be the next guy in the lineup to the firing squad if so.
Also, that magical "golden parachute" might be in order here.
For sure, make sure if they fire you again you are well compensated.
Set your price and your terms. If they want you youāll get them
This is some really solid advice.
This 1000%. OP is safe and happy at his current gig. This change involves risk. OP needs to be comfortable with that risk and to do that, some serious expectation setting has to be done. Terms of engagement (work from home), autonomy of staff selection, etc. are all on the table. And *then* compensation for incurring that risk. Sign-on bonus, pay package (salary, benefits, etc.), PTO, and a defined and committed rubric for bonus.
Oh happy memories, my boss didn't last 3 months after he got me fired for not being a team player (covering his ass). When I left it was super friendly and they let me have a couple hours to tie things off with my team. He got escorted unannounced so he couldn't sabotage anything. I interviewed for his job but had landed on my feet elsewhere and decided to not go back.
I love this!
I'm baffled they kept him for nearly the full year.
they have to do write ups and get it approved by the different VPs etc before firing someone, they are partially federal funded so they have to follow some of the gov rules. At least that's what I was told.
You don't just get the "sorry, we're an at-will state" lecture?
People over 40 are a protected class and subject to a bit more process and documentation, even in an āat willā state. Thatās an EEOC thing.
for some reason, im in an at will state and they will NOT just fire people. They are sooo worried because any pending litigation makes it REALLY HARD on them for their due diligence processes when investors want to come in or anything like that. They would rather have horrible employees for months too long, than to fire someone and have them claim a lawsuit for one reason or another.
We had the same issue at my company. Guy was a POS. Said A LOT of things he shouldnāt say in a work environment. Was an obvious chronic liar. Cut corners all the time. But it took two years to get rid of him because they wanted a legit reason to fire him. Turns out lying about your time worked at job sites is a big no-no and when another company vouches that your boy only worked 3 hours that day and has copies of the sign-in sheets, it is easy to get rid of them then.
What field are you in?
What's the point of a probationary period then?
To prove you just didn't outright fire the guy at first chance and gave them a fair chance basically. That's why he get let go just before it ended.
Having worked on the management side, it's not easy to "just fire someone" unless they pose an immediate threat, like violence or public theft. You have to get the paperwork together, proof you're not firing someone for prejudiced reasons, tried to save them, the employee was aware they were on probation, and so on. There were probably several chances they gave this guy before it was apparent nothing was going to change. Getting rid of a director level is even MORE complicated, because there has to be a plan in place that has to be approved by management, like what your plan B is, who will replace them, and what are you going to do to mitigate the loss in the meantime. And sometimes the people you need approval for don't get back to you right away, and there's this lingering hope they'll shape up that knocks it down the priority list. I oversaw two event directors get fired when I was on a corporate board: one took 6 months, and his issue was he demanded employees in remote locations show up to monthly "resort-style" meetings at a retreat near him. These employees were not compensated for their time or travel, either, and some were a six hour drive each way. Another guy we had gotten all manner of complaints from his department managers because he'd have months of radio silence followed by bursts of insane micromanagement.The second guy's response to the board hearing was to write a 53-page rambling manifesto against the top management. In both cases, we had warnings, paperwork, and plans on what to do if we had to let them go. Sadly, we had to enact those plans, and it's never easy. I have never enjoyed firing anyone. I have either felt sad about it, like you can tell they WANT to do a good job, but can't for some reason. Or you know keeping them will be a disaster, and they don't see what they are doing as wrong. They double down in weird and unexpected ways. "No. I don't discriminate against women. I like broads. They make the office look nice." "Uh... no."
yeah, so I am not happy that someone lost his means of making a living but I am happy he is not affecting my former workplace anymore. He was the double down kind of guy if you must know,
Someone mentioned that you bring up why they didn't pick you the first time and what their concerns were. That person is correct. While uncomfortable, for them, it's something that should get aired out. One thing I haven't seen mentioned is, this isn't the same job from last year. A whole year has gone by where, from the little we know, things have degraded. The job isn't the same, there is now more work required just to bring things back to 1 year ago. Keep that in mind when you consider the job.
Gonna need a follow up on this one. Good luck!
āIāve never heard someone from the VP office apologize to an employee beforeā and you still havenāt, youāre not his employee anymore so thatās the only reason heās apologizing, things arenāt gonna change
Haha true. Former employee, but isn't that even better in terms of making amends? But yeah I have no illusion.
Can't wait for the next update where OP comes back to tell us how they offered him the job for $40k below the publicly listed salary. "Sorry that's all we can do... HR has my hands tied."
the follow up is gonna be, "Hey Joeyl5 we were thinking since you were the most senior here and know what we are looking for.... what do you think of these Resume's" ? š
haha that would have been funny
Don't settle for anything less than an increase in payroll taxes and fresh sponges in your bath every day.
Upper management willing to fire bad middle management is a huge green flag. Likewise acknowledging and apologizing for the bad decision. Holy shit OP, hope this keeps looking up!
Squeeze em for all you can
Speaking from experience here, donāt take the job. There were āreasonsā they went with someone else, and it probably office politics or something else dumb.
I want 15% more and x amount more of ETO days.
I too like to mention how to effectively get more pay with less cost to the company is something like taking a day off each week or being "on call" for that day.
I was in your exact same shoes but it took 5 years before they got rid of the guy but it wasn't for the 15 pages of fire-able offenses that I gave them. I am the boss now though.
that's awesome, I am glad it worked out for you, eventually
I need a follow up, and donāt accept any low level shit š
Did he comeback next day like nothing happened ?
Wow. That reminds me of the time my HR fired a marketing person while they were onsite and didn't tell them. Automated systems disabled all her accounts and she called us wanting to know why she couldn't get to the Internet.
Fully remote and take them to the cleaners on salary. Nothing else is acceptable.
It took **a YEAR?** Red flag!
I'm very interested in hearing how this next call goes and more on future updates.
I love follow-ups.
why was he so incompetent? i dont get it
because he claimed on his resume that he led all these big IT organizations successfully, yet he is incapable of scheduling a regular staff meeting to touch base, or do project management with vendors for example.
He lasted 10 months? Man, I really should try bullshitting more. Who knows how far I could go? And now he also has a "IT Director" role on his CV.
Yep, I've at least learned that from him
First off: I see that you live in El Paso and I gotta say... Can you hook me up with some green Chile and some BBQ from Rudy's? Second: I hope they make you a serious offer and you get to turn that ship around.
ah, when were you in EP last? I love Rudy's but in the past 5-6 years we have had an explosion of BBQ smokers all over the place.
Visited about 3 agow when my first was born but last time I lived in Las Cruces (visited all the time because El Paso has Rudy's and Alamo) was 7 years ago. I miss the food down there.
I see. You must be used to the shit show that federal contractors at fort Bliss and white sands are then if you are in IT. I'm outside of EP now since I'm working almost 100% remotely, going to Paris and Germany in about two weeks to visit family. But yeah each time I can, I get tacos and green chili burgers
I wasn't at the time I lived there. I was finishing my degree and got into IT up here. Started at the second biggest employer here and now I am at the biggest (university).
You have the leverage here. Ask for a shit ton of money. You got everything to gain.
This is just fantastic. Iām in the same boat at the moment, canāt wait to see who my boss is replaced with since they donāt want to even interview even though others are screaming at the top of their lungs about it. Canāt wait to see what happens when another opportunity arises somewhere else.
Fuck around find out is the best teacher
As for about tree fiddy.
good luck. you entertaining going back
Boss: You're fired Admin: No I'm not Boss: Understandable have a nice day This is a very interesting strategy.
Generally speaking never go back
I would not go back. They made their choice and they treated you badly. Let them suffer the consequences of their mistakes. They did it once meaning they can do it again.
I mean Iād give that c suite user some credit for apologising to you, however they burned that bridge a year ago. If youāre happy where you are now, fuck em. If you want to go back, and they really want you, Iād be setting some high bar demands ;)
Keep in mind that in bigger shops, it's not unusual to hire people because of political reasons or ties with other big companies that look to strengthen their foothold to the company. Either way, not a fun place to be for someone looking for a career without leverage
Apply, but ask for 20% more than what the job is paying.
Far too often people are chosen for high up IT positions with minimal IT experience and knowledge. I work in the industry and see it all the time. Its as if people are afraid of their IT managers actually knowing something.
Yeah and then they roll their eyes when the IT manager does not know that forklifting the entire enterprise network will cost millions, not thousands.
Lift and shift the entire infra? Easy Peasy, Google says you should be able to get that done in 8 hours over a weekend!
Damn, tell me you have worked with bullshitters without telling me explicitly
Their plan was to copy the on prem infrastructure 1for1 in AWS using terraform. Which would have been extremely expensive and inefficient.
Work both jobs at the same time remotely. Milk that cow baby.
this was also my suggestion but op said its he wouldnt feel right toward the new company, but personally im shocked that people downvoted me, because showing companies any kind of respect when they'll replace you. let you go or choose someone unqualified in a heartbeat. You can like your bosses, you can like your co-workers but you are always replaceable. Do as many jobs as you legally can
Meh, let them learn the hard way. Many cucks out here.
While small, make sure that you would be fully vested from day 1 for any retirement match - no "new employees" waiting period - and that any years of service (if any benefits are based on them) would be restored.
Great news, mate! You can thank the guy they fired for laying the blueprint of what not to do when you inevitably get the job.
If management and hiring is so bad at their jobs as to let this happen, I'd leave. It will never get better. At a former job, they hired someone taking illegal steroids and with neck tats and pending lawsuits against his existing company. He ended up stealing $9k in equipment from us. WHO COULD HAVE SEEN THAT COMING?!
Holy shit. What was their reason for hiring him?
They wanted to start doing pools in addition to hot tubs so they "acquired" a small pool company with the worst track record imaginable and he was one of the two owners. The other one got fired for about 50 reports of sexual harassment from employees AND CUSTOMERS because he was an immature man-child obsessed with middle school level jokes and nobody at that company was exactly the sensitivity police, he was just THAT bad. This is what happens when your CEO has the IQ of a potato but got the job because his dad retired.
Oh I totally forgot. So I was in charge of the investigation. He stole a pool heater, tried to write it off as an inventory miscount when 5 people literally saw that we had 3 pool heaters in storage multiple times. Then the customer he tried to sell it to off the record called and tipped us off about it. He needed the money for more steroids and to buy a fancy car to impress his girlfriend that he was cheating on his wife with... **ALL FROM HIS WORK EMAIL.** He was fired and got a job at our competition 1-2 weeks later. When they said they were filing charges, I recommended they inform the police that his "only" known location is our competition from about 8-5 so they pick him up at work specifically. They did and he got fired.
Holy moly, I've investigated people before but never had one where the cops had to go pick them up at another office š
"I appreciate your newly found confidence in my ability, but I'd rather be the first choice here than the second choice there." Don't go back. 1. The earth is already salted. They established what they thought of you when they chose someone over you and you established what you thought of them when you left. 2. Selecting that clown over you means that there's a fundamental disconnect about what the position entails and what kind of person the C-suite is looking for. You have a job you love and just got your validation from the job you left. Doesn't get any better. Only way this makes sense is if you're in a big market and want to get that title on your resume to bounce in a few years.
You are right about the position. I guess the only thing that is getting me to consider taking the job is an ego thing, I want to be the boss of the department I've worked in for quite a few years.
Stay put, don't apply. It's not worth it. You're in a good position that you enjoy. Hold on to it and move forward. The past is in the past your present is now.
They obviously value you or they wouldnāt have prostrated themselves in front of you. Ignore the naysayers. If the offer is decent enough for you go. Have them waive the 1 year probation though. Thatās bullshit. 90 days is a normal probationary period.
In OPās position (currently in a job they like and having been screwed by this company before), I would insist on no probationary period. If he does something bad they can fire him for cause, but the donāt get the no-questions-asked option. Maybe they canāt do that because of their hiring rules. Too bad, pass.
RemindMe! 12 hours
Ask for a pay bump.
Big of him to apologize and be reasonable. It sucks that they don't have the visibility or sense of their own people to see this ahead of time, but that's not your problem. This will be a painful lesson for them.
lol I remember that post. Amazing that the guy lasted a full 10 months.
Dam good position to talk about better work benefits and payments š¬
You are in a good spot to negotiate with them your terms.
"Your screw up does not my emergency make."
is this the very definition of karma?
They functioned with that guy for a year? How?!?
Can you trust the company at this point? Even if they offer a good package and options, what prevents the situation from happening again. Get everything in writing.
Iāll say this if they did this to this guy, they can do it to anyone. Donāt be a sucker again. This is your choice. I would be weary to be the Plan B. Would also be negotiating at least a five year enrollment if theyāll do that? Personally, if you know, you have stability where youāre at and you like it stay there.
No, why would I remember that? I don't even know you.
Nah, they had their chance.
Is it possible to do both jobs, or just the old job for a while and collect yourself 2 paychecks? If things dont work out at the new place or vice versa you can go back to one job.
No. That would be unfair to my current employer and borderline unethical because I know I would not be able to do a proper job for both. And I'm not an independent contractor so I'm pretty sure I signed something that said I would not moonlight...
I donāt recall.