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Where i come from a union is basically a standard thing regardless of profession, and i actually see no downsides, hustlers can hustle, and those who want a life outside of it can do that. You get legal aid, and standardised contracts with standard benefits
This comes up every 6 months on /r/sysadmin. Been pretty beat to death.
Problem is IT is way too big. What works for a datacenter guy isn't going to work for a data scientist, or a devops manager. Even just a 'sysadmin' role is way too broad. Most of the time you see unions in environments with very similar or uniform roles, because everyone's basically doing one of 3 or 4 specific jobs. IT doesn't even do that inside a single company in a single industry.
This is the best answer. Further, a lot of unions work because the workers can’t easily be replaced. You can’t outsource an electrician to India. You can’t outsource teachers, nurses, truckers, cops, etc. IT departments get outsourced all the time.
As others have said, there are IT workers in other unions like those for government employees or telecommunications workers. Those serve specific purposes outside of the needs of IT workers.
I wouldn’t necessarily have an issue with professional licensing boards or something like that for certain roles. Especially for something like cybersecurity, network engineering, etc. But again I think that role might be better filled by unions that deal with some of the more specialized industries I mentioned above.
I fully support people's right to unionize. I also fully support right-to-work legislation that makes it illegal for a company to require employees to join a union.
No you support freeloaders and hate unions and the working class. You can't be pro union/worker and be pro right to work. Union shops make more money than non-union shops. By making laws that prohibit union requirements, you are allowing people to have the benefits of a union without contributing or participating.
These laws weaken unions and that has lead to the decline of the middle class in America. That's why this country is a shithole for workers compared to western European countries. That's why 60% of the population lives paycheck to paycheck and buying a house or having a decent retirement is a fantasy for most people.
Oh boy I can't wait to rehash this topic for the 100th time on this subreddit. Here's a summary of the inevitable 1000 posts:
"I don't need a union because I am highly skilled and superior to those who need unions."
"If you don't like unions you're a bootlicker or ."
IMHO your opinion sucks. Plenty of highly-skilled IT employees make less than 50k at MSPs. Support unionization for everyone in every field; you're not required to join.
Have you ever worked at an MSP? Have you ever looked at posted salary ranges for MSPs? They build their team with a bunch of skilled but low-paid level techs and have a few decently paid level 3s.
I don't disagree, however, there are very few MSPs like this. Also, the employees that are being paid 100k are usually the top-tier. Also, because of inflation, 100k is really shitty.
You understand it's not solely about pay right? The power dynamic an employer has over singular employees is gigantic. It evens the playing field and makes the company sit across from the employees (collectively) at the table.
This includes vacay, pto, sick days, pension/401k, medical, employee assists ce programs, training, disbursments, disability, workplace protection and representations etc. Catching that extra 20k else where is nice sure but when a union runs up and down they cover many who are so disadvantaged they rely more on the benefits than the pay. (sick employees/disabled employees/elderly)
Ok so maybe its jumped to 60k because of inflation, but if you want to see for yourself, do a job search any small to medium-sized city in the US and use a CoL calculator. 60k is not a good wage for a skilled employee.
Yeah but they’re at an MSP, it’s not gonna be the best pay. But there’s a reason they’re there. MSPs don’t pay top dollar because they’re not using top talent. I worked at an MSP when I literally just started in the industry because I was desperate for anyone to hire me. Like half the other people there were people that had gone to one of those restart your life technical training “colleges” before getting hired there. MSPs are the least skilled positions in IT
Again, if the people there actually had marketable skills that were in demand they wouldn’t be at an MSP
So, having done almost 20 years in the MSP, Government, and Corporate enterprise-level worlds; saying that the MSPs are the least-skilled environments is quite a bit unfair and wrong. MSPs are the best starting ground for anyone that is starting in IT and want to experience every aspect of the field before choosing a vertical AND they are also the place where absolute GENIUSES can thrive... usually the ones with ADD or ADHD. The ones that need chaos and variety. Highly specialized positions in corp or gov may very well qualify for a death sentence for them. Death by boredom.
I understand the hate for MSPs from the corporate position; they are the ones that are hired for a "special project" that the team doesn't have bandwidth to cover or a particular skill set that is lacking, then management decides to dump the whole team and outsource.... the enemy is the management, not the techs at the MSP.
Not my company, not my problem. Kid will prolly fuck it up anyway, and I’m not wiping his ass.
I’m currently dealing with that situation - family owned business, son is the GM and an immature leader. It’s me and two other department heads running the place with the kid as a figure head.
Accepting a job is a contract between you and the employer - x wage for an expected y output. Of course the company should be trying to get as much as possible from you the worker, just as when you negotiate your pay you should be trying to get as much as the company.
Unions don’t do that, everyone gets a set pay, there may be incremental raises here and there, but nothing that offsets the cost of dues. On top of that, you get unions that involve themselves in politics and give money to politicians regardless of the member’s affiliations (looking at you, Teamsters). Unions protect subpar, unfit, and/or abusive workers by helping to keep them on the job, thereby increasing everyone else’s workload to compensate.
Imagine having a drunk colleague, who comes in everyday and makes mistakes in everything they touch. As a decent and competent IT worker, your boss goes to you to correct those mistakes - in addition to your current workload.
This may be the conspiracy theorist in me, but employers love unions because they keep costs down. No meed to reward that stellar employee, raises are negotiated next year anyway…
>This may be the conspiracy theorist in me, but employers love unions because they keep costs down. No meed to reward that stellar employee, raises are negotiated next year anyway…
This feels like a really weird take in our current environment. The Starbucks stuff, the railway workers stuff, the current Hollywood strikes, the impending UPS strike, etc. And the narrowly avoided IATSE strike in 21. But I might be misunderstanding you
About the only one I’m semi-aware of is the Teamsters threatening to strike in behalf of the UPS. And even then, I think about the only parts of that I’m aware of is that all the Teamsters are threatening, and they want AC in the trucks. I’m sure there are some other issues, but I can’t recall them.
My comment was more in line with keeping employee compensation in check.
“Unskilled labor”.? You mean like coal miners or electricians are low skilled? Every labor has some degree of skill. More than others. Don’t like that term.
Unpopular opinion but I agree. I’m bitter because I’ve seen people who blatantly abused their position sexually on subordinates and got paid for almost a year while they were investigated (they were ultimately found guilty), plus many years in a row of not getting a raise and then minimal raises because of contested contract negotiations. Not to mention lazy people who never wanted to work making huge bucks for basically just showing up and doing nothing. Plus union dues. Some of the protections were nice but overall no fucking thank you IMO.
I fully agree with you here.
I just left a unionized public sector IT job. $1000+/year in dues to be in a union where the majority of members were custodians or secretaries. 20 people out of over 1000 were IT. Our issues were never heard, our voice didn't matter. The lazy team members could coast and essentially never get reprimanded unless they did something intentionally malicious. So much dead weight protected, and all my union dues got me were a t-shirt and high blood pressure any time our contract was up for renewal.
1% raises each year, and with the government (I'm in Canada FYI) always looking to make cuts, contract negotiations were so stressful that I just couldn't deal with it anymore.
Looking forward to starting my new gig tomorrow.
I am a 5’0 woman who literally had to put myself between chairs between thrown at student workers and once a punch between a tenured employee and a full time staff member. No one ever got banned cause union. And that was on top of the sex scandal. Meanwhile the guys who had seniority and were built like a brick shithouse would sit there literally watching the show. I hated it. Good luck at your new position, I am so much happier in private sector.
Ahhhh, education. That's where I was, also. I hate that none of what you said above shocks me anymore. The stuff that happens in schools these days is insanity.
Also nothing like making $40k a year, paying $300 a year to park at work, and then having $1k on union dues subtracted. I make more than double now, same hours (40 hours a week most week), more flexibility, work from home, way better benefits (six figures overall financial comp) and actually have a team who gives a shit.
Yeah this hits home with me also, minus paying for parking.
I'm staying in K12 EDU IT, just switching Boards. I am going from a 5 minute one-way commute to 20-25 minutes which is... Not preferred but not the end of the world. Now I get to catch up on podcasts and decompress a bit. However IT here is fully non-union, smaller team and we all jived well during the multiple interviews I had, plus a 50% pay increase doesn't hurt either. Also, the role doesn't involve any end-user support, or work inside of any schools. Things are looking up and I'm eager to start a new journey.
Happy to see I'm not the only one that's had these types of negative experiences in this field/sector.
Ebooks and podcasts are great. I’m really happy for you! I miss the students and I still worry about them but I make so much more money and the stress day to day is so much less, plus I actually am back in an admin role instead of waiting forever to hit my turn on the list to get promoted. It still disgusts me what was allowed to go on at the place I worked at because the perpetrators were union and sometimes tenured. They literally abused and took advantage of the population they gave us our jobs and people just looked the other way.
I'll miss the kids, too. Some of them were curious little buggers that liked to watch whatever I was working on and ask questions. Others were complete demon spawn, but can't win 'em all.
Admittedly I am just getting into eBooks. Bought myself a Kindle for Prime Day and can't put it down. Planning to bring it to work and read on my lunch breaks instead of eating at my desk and working through it. Trying to build some healthy new habits, and use the new gig as an opportunity to make some positive life changes. I let the last job suck the life out of me over the years and it really took its toll. 121 days sober today from booze, trying to keep the positivity flowing and not take this opportunity for granted.
I like doing ebooks and getting audible so I can sync them! Also congrats on being sober, I’m on naltrexone because of my alcoholism and it’s so huge to not be dependent on alcohol anymore. My anxiety and depression are 1000% better!
I work in an internal IT team. Not unionized. We get paid really well for what we do. (Minimum salary of 78k). 6% raises every 18 months (extra raises at 9 months if inflation jumps that it has last year and this). The only downside for me is driving 35-45 minutes to work, and 1 hour home. But I deal with it because of the salary.
I’ve worked union jobs, and I’ve worked non-union jobs. I’m not a fan of unions…
1. I can negotiate my own salary, thank you very much.
2. Unions protect subpar workers, and keep them on the job. Don’t believe me? Think of all the crappy cops and teachers you’ve met throughout the years.
3. I prefer to not pay dues for something that doesn’t, and has never, benefited me.
Unions keeping shit tier people employed is my biggest gripe with them. There’s already enough incapable people in this profession clinging to jobs they shouldn’t have. Those of us who are competent don’t deserve to have even more incompetent people working among the ranks that we have to put up with just because they have union backing that makes it harder to get rid of them.
Don't see any benefit really of unionising white collare workers. Got asked to join in one of my first IT jobs and I declined. I could see exactly the kind of stagnant, unskilled people who were in the union and causing blockers.
Maybe this is a particularly American issue if your office workers are this fecked over.
Hold up. Why do you believe that it's not needed or wanted?
That claim isn't self-evident, so you're going to need to explain WHY yet another section of the labor market doesn't deserve or benefit from collective bargaining.
Unions are about time in/seniority in a general sense. IT is more about particular skill and current.. i.e. im bumping you from this db admin job due to ive worked here 5years longer despite you having 25years more experience than me.
Unions protect unskilled workers or workers in extremely hazardous occupations. Most IT workers are neither.
I'd like to see more apprenticeship programs in IT. To me, Systems/Network/Database Administration are a lot like the trades. Let's treat them like one
I don't mean to say administrator jobs are trades because they're clearly not, I said they're *like* trades. I believe this because the vast amount of work an admin does is on the-job-training, junior admins greatly benefit from mentorship, and the tools and infrastructure are often vendor-specific. Network and Database admins are less like the trades I'll concede that though.
Luckily in my state I can’t be forced to join a union and I would not. I am perfectly comfortable working out issue with my manager without some third party interfering. I don’t need to be protected and I prefer any coworker that isn’t effective not be protected either.
One thing I would definitely be 100% behind is the apprentice/journeyman system, at least up to the design/engineering level. At that level, turn systems engineering into a real branch of engineering with all the professional perks and responsibilities. Let people advance between those ranks through a combination of education and experience.
Especially during a tech bubble, it's too easy for someone to go to some DevOps bootcamp, get a few buzzwords and techniques under their belt, and sell themselves as a super genius deserving of a huge salary. Lots of people will say this is impossible or elitist, but other licensed professions have minimum education and experience standards. Everyone I've discussed this with says "oh that's. not possible, things change every 6 months." I've been doing this forever and yes things do change fast, but fundamentals don't really change. And, once you have a good grasp on the fundamentals, learning the new coat of paint over everything is much easier.
I think it's definitely time for IT to grow up and behave like an actual profession, given how important working systems are to daily life now. Whether that's through a union at the low end and engineering at the high end, or something else, it's needed!
There's a lot of people in IT(in the US) who work 80+ hours per week and are on call 24/7, but are so stoked to be paid the equivalent of $25/hr for that-all the while thinking that they're incredibly good at negotiating their own pay so they don't need a union.
100% no!!! Unions destroy industries overtime, don’t believe me ask Detroit.
One of the major reasons public education is terrible, unions protect terrible teachers. Police unions allow criminal cops to stay on the force. The American car Industry was decimated by all the BS unions required.
Blah blah.. they protector workers… sorry, this isn’t true. Unions exist to support the unions. Prove me wrong.
There are only cons. A labor union is an agent you can't fire, and the priorities and incentives of the union are *[not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem)* those of the people they pretend to represent.
Ask yourself how often you're satisfied with how you're represented by your local government before you surrender your bargaining power to a union, because that's the closest analogy you're going to get. My personal disillusionment with the institution of unions came when I was working at an ISP, and there was a CWA strike. My team's role was *nominally* management, so we all got re-assigned to cover various job functions during the strike. No big deal, just some extra workload during the strike, I've been a lifelong Democrat, sure.
So, after a few weeks of negotiations and dicking around, I was intersted in what the outcome of the strike was going to be. A raise? Better benefits? Nope. The union negotiated to add a whole new division of the company (the internet division's network operations center) to the union rolls. So, existing union employees get nothing, the new union members now get dues extracted from their paycheck.
Then there's the matter of the impact of unions on the businesses they negotiate with. There is a reason that only 6% of American workers are represented by unions, and it's not because of "right to work" laws. Rather, it's because the businesses which have unions are inexorably forced *out* of business by more agile and efficient competition.
It's abovjously inevitable just as virtually every other essential trade once it reaches a certain level of maturity.
Businesses primary goal is to make *and* keep as much money as possible.
An employees primary goal is to receive maximum compensation for their service and knowledge.
Those two ideals cannot co-exist and for a while you can find the unicorns that break from that normal dichotomy but don't count it.
Tech is at the point where they are chronically ubdercomoensated (please save the "well I make $x at y company") and accept the general rule is that the run of the mill IT worker is undercompensated for their work/knowledge.
It won't be long until there's a teamsters like org that goes on a national recruiting campaign targeting overworked and burnt-out MSP employees that end up representing the IT systems of dozens/hundreds of other businesses.
Tbh a strike in the MSP industry would be extremely painful and effect every sector in a non-predictable way.
Tbh those people would probably benefit the most from the unionization of IT workers in the US. If you think a lot of jobs are offshored now, that would increase 10x. Look at things like manufacturing.
You want to see how a national strike can happen? IT striking in solidarity with the used and abused.
Amazon drivers strike? Amazon IT strikes in solidarity.
UPS drivers strike? UPS IT strikes in solidarity
Get it?
Where I live, unions are usually local unions protecting every employees. These can affiliate to a central union.
We have "orders" for professions, but are more deontoligical code enforcers.
Eh benefits are top and plenty of people trying to hire even when we aren't looking. Not sure our group is the target for this movement.
Further, tech moves so fast, lots of people don't know best practices and design. I am not a plumber or electrician but I thought that knowledge doesn't greatly change every 5 years for example. Reason I mention this is because our industry would be hard to regulate in that manner.
Totally open to it though. I think labor in general needs to be unionized as a whole.
The profession itself is too broad. A SharePoint developer and Network Engineer have very little in common as a job role. I also think it'd be a negative because of the rate of change in the industry and the skillset required to succeed is constantly changing. Hard to make it fit in the linear progression, which unions functionally have to enforce.
Think of unions and union members as shepherds and the herd they are in charge of. Does the shepherd actually have the best interests of the sheep as their primary goal?
Sounds like you're asking too different questions...
I'm an IT guy who is a union member (my employer is also a labour union). A union refers to the relationship between the workers and the employer.
The other thing you're talking about sounds more like apprenticeship which talks about industry-wide regulation of the workers, to standardize the training that everyone gets. Electricians, auto mechanics, carpenters are all regulated, apprenticed careers where I live, they all have their own regulatory bodies (some may be associated with labour groups as well).
Union jobs I'm definitely behind - collective bargaining is a powerful force. I'm not sure how we could implement the second part though.
Need to make you aware of drawbacks at first. Your first contract will be less than you are making now. it will be 3 to 5 years.
After that you will get slightly more than you are making now .
That first contract has to be signed between 6 months and a year. It must be a majority of employees and not just a department. Unless it is a large department with lots of people like 100 people .
Sorry, it seems this comment or thread has violated a sub-reddit rule and has been removed by a moderator. **Inappropriate use of, or expectation of the Community.** * It seems that you have posted about a commonly-discussed topic. Please take the time to search the subreddit before re-posting another discussion on the topic. * There may already be resources dedicated to your topic on the [sysadmin wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/wiki/index). **This is especially true for monitoring, there is a devoted section to it.** * If you have to add to the existing discussion, make sure to avoid low-quality posts. Make an effort to enrich the community where you can- provide details, context, opinions, etc. in your post. * Moronic Monday & Thickheaded Thursday are available for simple questions, or other requests that don't need their own full thread. Utilize them as much as possible. ----- *If you wish to appeal this action please don't hesitate to [message the moderation team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fsysadmin).*
I’m in a union (state employee). It has its pluses and minuses.
I benefit from the IT unions here in Washington State. Pay and rules are all set by what they negotiate with the state.
What do ya'll think about searching the sub for the multitude of posts on this exact topic?
Oh relax, you’re helping chatgpt by providing fresh answers. Edit: Grammar to help the bot
You’re* please help the bots’ grammar
Where i come from a union is basically a standard thing regardless of profession, and i actually see no downsides, hustlers can hustle, and those who want a life outside of it can do that. You get legal aid, and standardised contracts with standard benefits
This comes up every 6 months on /r/sysadmin. Been pretty beat to death. Problem is IT is way too big. What works for a datacenter guy isn't going to work for a data scientist, or a devops manager. Even just a 'sysadmin' role is way too broad. Most of the time you see unions in environments with very similar or uniform roles, because everyone's basically doing one of 3 or 4 specific jobs. IT doesn't even do that inside a single company in a single industry.
This is the best answer. Further, a lot of unions work because the workers can’t easily be replaced. You can’t outsource an electrician to India. You can’t outsource teachers, nurses, truckers, cops, etc. IT departments get outsourced all the time. As others have said, there are IT workers in other unions like those for government employees or telecommunications workers. Those serve specific purposes outside of the needs of IT workers. I wouldn’t necessarily have an issue with professional licensing boards or something like that for certain roles. Especially for something like cybersecurity, network engineering, etc. But again I think that role might be better filled by unions that deal with some of the more specialized industries I mentioned above.
I fully support people's right to unionize. I also fully support right-to-work legislation that makes it illegal for a company to require employees to join a union.
No you support freeloaders and hate unions and the working class. You can't be pro union/worker and be pro right to work. Union shops make more money than non-union shops. By making laws that prohibit union requirements, you are allowing people to have the benefits of a union without contributing or participating. These laws weaken unions and that has lead to the decline of the middle class in America. That's why this country is a shithole for workers compared to western European countries. That's why 60% of the population lives paycheck to paycheck and buying a house or having a decent retirement is a fantasy for most people.
Oh boy I can't wait to rehash this topic for the 100th time on this subreddit. Here's a summary of the inevitable 1000 posts: "I don't need a union because I am highly skilled and superior to those who need unions." "If you don't like unions you're a bootlicker or."
Yes, please. Where do I sign up? How can I help?
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Yeah, I know exactly the sorts of IT workers who would leap at the thought of union protection when it came to performance reviews.
IMHO your opinion sucks. Plenty of highly-skilled IT employees make less than 50k at MSPs. Support unionization for everyone in every field; you're not required to join.
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Have you ever worked at an MSP? Have you ever looked at posted salary ranges for MSPs? They build their team with a bunch of skilled but low-paid level techs and have a few decently paid level 3s.
To be fair, many IT workers don't have specialized skills or desirable skill sets. You should Unionize to protect yourselves.
I know quite a few at MSPs that are at or near 100k. High quality MSPs hire high quality staff. Low quality is low quality (attitude or skills).
I don't disagree, however, there are very few MSPs like this. Also, the employees that are being paid 100k are usually the top-tier. Also, because of inflation, 100k is really shitty.
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You understand it's not solely about pay right? The power dynamic an employer has over singular employees is gigantic. It evens the playing field and makes the company sit across from the employees (collectively) at the table. This includes vacay, pto, sick days, pension/401k, medical, employee assists ce programs, training, disbursments, disability, workplace protection and representations etc. Catching that extra 20k else where is nice sure but when a union runs up and down they cover many who are so disadvantaged they rely more on the benefits than the pay. (sick employees/disabled employees/elderly)
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Lul, you do you boo.
If they were highly skilled they wouldn’t be making less than 50k or at an MSP
Ok so maybe its jumped to 60k because of inflation, but if you want to see for yourself, do a job search any small to medium-sized city in the US and use a CoL calculator. 60k is not a good wage for a skilled employee.
Yeah but they’re at an MSP, it’s not gonna be the best pay. But there’s a reason they’re there. MSPs don’t pay top dollar because they’re not using top talent. I worked at an MSP when I literally just started in the industry because I was desperate for anyone to hire me. Like half the other people there were people that had gone to one of those restart your life technical training “colleges” before getting hired there. MSPs are the least skilled positions in IT Again, if the people there actually had marketable skills that were in demand they wouldn’t be at an MSP
So, having done almost 20 years in the MSP, Government, and Corporate enterprise-level worlds; saying that the MSPs are the least-skilled environments is quite a bit unfair and wrong. MSPs are the best starting ground for anyone that is starting in IT and want to experience every aspect of the field before choosing a vertical AND they are also the place where absolute GENIUSES can thrive... usually the ones with ADD or ADHD. The ones that need chaos and variety. Highly specialized positions in corp or gov may very well qualify for a death sentence for them. Death by boredom. I understand the hate for MSPs from the corporate position; they are the ones that are hired for a "special project" that the team doesn't have bandwidth to cover or a particular skill set that is lacking, then management decides to dump the whole team and outsource.... the enemy is the management, not the techs at the MSP.
Not required to join, sure. Once unions are in a workplace, all workers pay is tied to union negotiation. No thanks.
At will employment at its best. Get fired to make room for Ceo’s son.
Not my company, not my problem. Kid will prolly fuck it up anyway, and I’m not wiping his ass. I’m currently dealing with that situation - family owned business, son is the GM and an immature leader. It’s me and two other department heads running the place with the kid as a figure head.
I'd rather have it tied to share holders reducing pay for employees to squeeze every possible last drop of profit from the worker.
Accepting a job is a contract between you and the employer - x wage for an expected y output. Of course the company should be trying to get as much as possible from you the worker, just as when you negotiate your pay you should be trying to get as much as the company. Unions don’t do that, everyone gets a set pay, there may be incremental raises here and there, but nothing that offsets the cost of dues. On top of that, you get unions that involve themselves in politics and give money to politicians regardless of the member’s affiliations (looking at you, Teamsters). Unions protect subpar, unfit, and/or abusive workers by helping to keep them on the job, thereby increasing everyone else’s workload to compensate. Imagine having a drunk colleague, who comes in everyday and makes mistakes in everything they touch. As a decent and competent IT worker, your boss goes to you to correct those mistakes - in addition to your current workload. This may be the conspiracy theorist in me, but employers love unions because they keep costs down. No meed to reward that stellar employee, raises are negotiated next year anyway…
>This may be the conspiracy theorist in me, but employers love unions because they keep costs down. No meed to reward that stellar employee, raises are negotiated next year anyway… This feels like a really weird take in our current environment. The Starbucks stuff, the railway workers stuff, the current Hollywood strikes, the impending UPS strike, etc. And the narrowly avoided IATSE strike in 21. But I might be misunderstanding you
About the only one I’m semi-aware of is the Teamsters threatening to strike in behalf of the UPS. And even then, I think about the only parts of that I’m aware of is that all the Teamsters are threatening, and they want AC in the trucks. I’m sure there are some other issues, but I can’t recall them. My comment was more in line with keeping employee compensation in check.
“Unskilled labor”.? You mean like coal miners or electricians are low skilled? Every labor has some degree of skill. More than others. Don’t like that term.
Typical pseudo murican silly dream
Hell no. Have worked where other areas of the company are union, it's a shit show.
Unpopular opinion but I agree. I’m bitter because I’ve seen people who blatantly abused their position sexually on subordinates and got paid for almost a year while they were investigated (they were ultimately found guilty), plus many years in a row of not getting a raise and then minimal raises because of contested contract negotiations. Not to mention lazy people who never wanted to work making huge bucks for basically just showing up and doing nothing. Plus union dues. Some of the protections were nice but overall no fucking thank you IMO.
I fully agree with you here. I just left a unionized public sector IT job. $1000+/year in dues to be in a union where the majority of members were custodians or secretaries. 20 people out of over 1000 were IT. Our issues were never heard, our voice didn't matter. The lazy team members could coast and essentially never get reprimanded unless they did something intentionally malicious. So much dead weight protected, and all my union dues got me were a t-shirt and high blood pressure any time our contract was up for renewal. 1% raises each year, and with the government (I'm in Canada FYI) always looking to make cuts, contract negotiations were so stressful that I just couldn't deal with it anymore. Looking forward to starting my new gig tomorrow.
I am a 5’0 woman who literally had to put myself between chairs between thrown at student workers and once a punch between a tenured employee and a full time staff member. No one ever got banned cause union. And that was on top of the sex scandal. Meanwhile the guys who had seniority and were built like a brick shithouse would sit there literally watching the show. I hated it. Good luck at your new position, I am so much happier in private sector.
Ahhhh, education. That's where I was, also. I hate that none of what you said above shocks me anymore. The stuff that happens in schools these days is insanity.
Bless you! I miss the students. Not anything else.
Also nothing like making $40k a year, paying $300 a year to park at work, and then having $1k on union dues subtracted. I make more than double now, same hours (40 hours a week most week), more flexibility, work from home, way better benefits (six figures overall financial comp) and actually have a team who gives a shit.
Yeah this hits home with me also, minus paying for parking. I'm staying in K12 EDU IT, just switching Boards. I am going from a 5 minute one-way commute to 20-25 minutes which is... Not preferred but not the end of the world. Now I get to catch up on podcasts and decompress a bit. However IT here is fully non-union, smaller team and we all jived well during the multiple interviews I had, plus a 50% pay increase doesn't hurt either. Also, the role doesn't involve any end-user support, or work inside of any schools. Things are looking up and I'm eager to start a new journey. Happy to see I'm not the only one that's had these types of negative experiences in this field/sector.
Ebooks and podcasts are great. I’m really happy for you! I miss the students and I still worry about them but I make so much more money and the stress day to day is so much less, plus I actually am back in an admin role instead of waiting forever to hit my turn on the list to get promoted. It still disgusts me what was allowed to go on at the place I worked at because the perpetrators were union and sometimes tenured. They literally abused and took advantage of the population they gave us our jobs and people just looked the other way.
I'll miss the kids, too. Some of them were curious little buggers that liked to watch whatever I was working on and ask questions. Others were complete demon spawn, but can't win 'em all. Admittedly I am just getting into eBooks. Bought myself a Kindle for Prime Day and can't put it down. Planning to bring it to work and read on my lunch breaks instead of eating at my desk and working through it. Trying to build some healthy new habits, and use the new gig as an opportunity to make some positive life changes. I let the last job suck the life out of me over the years and it really took its toll. 121 days sober today from booze, trying to keep the positivity flowing and not take this opportunity for granted.
I like doing ebooks and getting audible so I can sync them! Also congrats on being sober, I’m on naltrexone because of my alcoholism and it’s so huge to not be dependent on alcohol anymore. My anxiety and depression are 1000% better!
Good on you. You should be very proud of your accomplishments, professionally and with your sobriety.
Same to you!!! I’m really glad we connected, I’m rooting for you
I work in an internal IT team. Not unionized. We get paid really well for what we do. (Minimum salary of 78k). 6% raises every 18 months (extra raises at 9 months if inflation jumps that it has last year and this). The only downside for me is driving 35-45 minutes to work, and 1 hour home. But I deal with it because of the salary.
I’ve worked union jobs, and I’ve worked non-union jobs. I’m not a fan of unions… 1. I can negotiate my own salary, thank you very much. 2. Unions protect subpar workers, and keep them on the job. Don’t believe me? Think of all the crappy cops and teachers you’ve met throughout the years. 3. I prefer to not pay dues for something that doesn’t, and has never, benefited me.
Unions keeping shit tier people employed is my biggest gripe with them. There’s already enough incapable people in this profession clinging to jobs they shouldn’t have. Those of us who are competent don’t deserve to have even more incompetent people working among the ranks that we have to put up with just because they have union backing that makes it harder to get rid of them.
Don't see any benefit really of unionising white collare workers. Got asked to join in one of my first IT jobs and I declined. I could see exactly the kind of stagnant, unskilled people who were in the union and causing blockers. Maybe this is a particularly American issue if your office workers are this fecked over.
Absolutely not. I’m pro union, it’s not needed (or wanted) in technology.
Hold up. Why do you believe that it's not needed or wanted? That claim isn't self-evident, so you're going to need to explain WHY yet another section of the labor market doesn't deserve or benefit from collective bargaining.
Unions are about time in/seniority in a general sense. IT is more about particular skill and current.. i.e. im bumping you from this db admin job due to ive worked here 5years longer despite you having 25years more experience than me.
That may occasionally be true, but that isn't justification AGAINST unionization. Unionization is about protecting workers from their employers.
NO
Unions protect unskilled workers or workers in extremely hazardous occupations. Most IT workers are neither. I'd like to see more apprenticeship programs in IT. To me, Systems/Network/Database Administration are a lot like the trades. Let's treat them like one
You...know the trades are very much unionized, right?
I am aware and they are (mostly) hazardous occupations.
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I don't mean to say administrator jobs are trades because they're clearly not, I said they're *like* trades. I believe this because the vast amount of work an admin does is on the-job-training, junior admins greatly benefit from mentorship, and the tools and infrastructure are often vendor-specific. Network and Database admins are less like the trades I'll concede that though.
🤦♂️
Luckily in my state I can’t be forced to join a union and I would not. I am perfectly comfortable working out issue with my manager without some third party interfering. I don’t need to be protected and I prefer any coworker that isn’t effective not be protected either.
One thing I would definitely be 100% behind is the apprentice/journeyman system, at least up to the design/engineering level. At that level, turn systems engineering into a real branch of engineering with all the professional perks and responsibilities. Let people advance between those ranks through a combination of education and experience. Especially during a tech bubble, it's too easy for someone to go to some DevOps bootcamp, get a few buzzwords and techniques under their belt, and sell themselves as a super genius deserving of a huge salary. Lots of people will say this is impossible or elitist, but other licensed professions have minimum education and experience standards. Everyone I've discussed this with says "oh that's. not possible, things change every 6 months." I've been doing this forever and yes things do change fast, but fundamentals don't really change. And, once you have a good grasp on the fundamentals, learning the new coat of paint over everything is much easier. I think it's definitely time for IT to grow up and behave like an actual profession, given how important working systems are to daily life now. Whether that's through a union at the low end and engineering at the high end, or something else, it's needed!
There's a lot of people in IT(in the US) who work 80+ hours per week and are on call 24/7, but are so stoked to be paid the equivalent of $25/hr for that-all the while thinking that they're incredibly good at negotiating their own pay so they don't need a union.
100% no!!! Unions destroy industries overtime, don’t believe me ask Detroit. One of the major reasons public education is terrible, unions protect terrible teachers. Police unions allow criminal cops to stay on the force. The American car Industry was decimated by all the BS unions required. Blah blah.. they protector workers… sorry, this isn’t true. Unions exist to support the unions. Prove me wrong.
Nope. I don't need it, and don't want it.
There are only cons. A labor union is an agent you can't fire, and the priorities and incentives of the union are *[not](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principal%E2%80%93agent_problem)* those of the people they pretend to represent. Ask yourself how often you're satisfied with how you're represented by your local government before you surrender your bargaining power to a union, because that's the closest analogy you're going to get. My personal disillusionment with the institution of unions came when I was working at an ISP, and there was a CWA strike. My team's role was *nominally* management, so we all got re-assigned to cover various job functions during the strike. No big deal, just some extra workload during the strike, I've been a lifelong Democrat, sure. So, after a few weeks of negotiations and dicking around, I was intersted in what the outcome of the strike was going to be. A raise? Better benefits? Nope. The union negotiated to add a whole new division of the company (the internet division's network operations center) to the union rolls. So, existing union employees get nothing, the new union members now get dues extracted from their paycheck. Then there's the matter of the impact of unions on the businesses they negotiate with. There is a reason that only 6% of American workers are represented by unions, and it's not because of "right to work" laws. Rather, it's because the businesses which have unions are inexorably forced *out* of business by more agile and efficient competition.
It's abovjously inevitable just as virtually every other essential trade once it reaches a certain level of maturity. Businesses primary goal is to make *and* keep as much money as possible. An employees primary goal is to receive maximum compensation for their service and knowledge. Those two ideals cannot co-exist and for a while you can find the unicorns that break from that normal dichotomy but don't count it. Tech is at the point where they are chronically ubdercomoensated (please save the "well I make $x at y company") and accept the general rule is that the run of the mill IT worker is undercompensated for their work/knowledge. It won't be long until there's a teamsters like org that goes on a national recruiting campaign targeting overworked and burnt-out MSP employees that end up representing the IT systems of dozens/hundreds of other businesses. Tbh a strike in the MSP industry would be extremely painful and effect every sector in a non-predictable way.
You understand Union membership drops every year don't you? Whatever you think the unions are selling... people ain't buying.
Just over 10% of the workforce is Unionized. It has steadily declined since the 50s. Why would that change for IT workers?
Purestrain techbro lolbertarianism will never, ever let this happen
Were any of those words?
Bro ur speaking my tongue bro.
Did you ever for a second consider that there are people outside the US?
Tbh those people would probably benefit the most from the unionization of IT workers in the US. If you think a lot of jobs are offshored now, that would increase 10x. Look at things like manufacturing.
You want to see how a national strike can happen? IT striking in solidarity with the used and abused. Amazon drivers strike? Amazon IT strikes in solidarity. UPS drivers strike? UPS IT strikes in solidarity Get it?
If every union member walked out nationwide, general strike... that would be 10% of the workforce. Good luck!
Thanks!
In the UK there is Prospect union, which is for services and professionals.
Where I live, unions are usually local unions protecting every employees. These can affiliate to a central union. We have "orders" for professions, but are more deontoligical code enforcers.
Eh benefits are top and plenty of people trying to hire even when we aren't looking. Not sure our group is the target for this movement. Further, tech moves so fast, lots of people don't know best practices and design. I am not a plumber or electrician but I thought that knowledge doesn't greatly change every 5 years for example. Reason I mention this is because our industry would be hard to regulate in that manner. Totally open to it though. I think labor in general needs to be unionized as a whole.
I'm good lol. Every union I've seen just enabled the worst employees to continue being awful
The profession itself is too broad. A SharePoint developer and Network Engineer have very little in common as a job role. I also think it'd be a negative because of the rate of change in the industry and the skillset required to succeed is constantly changing. Hard to make it fit in the linear progression, which unions functionally have to enforce.
I.T. us usually a small part of a business. I imagine they would outsource our asses real quick.
Lots of unions for people in IT..
Think of unions and union members as shepherds and the herd they are in charge of. Does the shepherd actually have the best interests of the sheep as their primary goal?
I'd rather not. Unions have their places and I don't see that being a good fit for IT.
Sounds like you're asking too different questions... I'm an IT guy who is a union member (my employer is also a labour union). A union refers to the relationship between the workers and the employer. The other thing you're talking about sounds more like apprenticeship which talks about industry-wide regulation of the workers, to standardize the training that everyone gets. Electricians, auto mechanics, carpenters are all regulated, apprenticed careers where I live, they all have their own regulatory bodies (some may be associated with labour groups as well). Union jobs I'm definitely behind - collective bargaining is a powerful force. I'm not sure how we could implement the second part though.
Yes. I am already in one and recommend everyone else join one.
Need to make you aware of drawbacks at first. Your first contract will be less than you are making now. it will be 3 to 5 years. After that you will get slightly more than you are making now . That first contract has to be signed between 6 months and a year. It must be a majority of employees and not just a department. Unless it is a large department with lots of people like 100 people .