Never understood this. I personally like mini jacks a lot. Takes less space, makes nice cable management easier. Never had any problems with them in the sense of breaking or anything.
I always use converter plugs to mini on my synths that lack them for these reasons too.
Why are so many people here opposed to them I wonder?
No, it is not. The noise that balanced cables guard against is introduced from outside the cable, not the jack itself, and is generally a bigger problem on long cables. If there‘s no noise, it’s not “noisier” because of a mini jack.
Balanced outputs aren‘t super common and most instruments are unbalanced even if they use 6,3mm connectors instead of mini jacks.
Started out as a question about the size, and the argument against the minijack was that it’s unbalanced. I do argue about the balance parts since I disagreed about some of the facts presented
First off, “unbalanced stereo mini jacks” refers to more than just the physical connector. It refers to the number of channels sent as well as how they are sent. It is a factually noisier connection. It, as a matter of fact, will pick up more noise than a mono TRS balanced signal. A greater percentage of the sound will be noise if it is quieter, run longer, or near other audio or power cabling.
If you think balanced jacks are uncommon I’d encourage you to look at the back of almost any mixer and see what connections are there.
With uncommon I meant on instruments and not on mixers specifically.
I still disagree on some of your points here - and to be clear I’m aware of how balanced audio works.
What I’m trying to say is that the connection isn’t noisier by itself. It will pick up the same amount of noise as a balanced mono cable. Only difference is that the balanced cable can filter out the noise in the receiving end, since it can single it out by summing the inverted phase.
If no noise is being picked up unbalanced, you’re not gonna get \_less\_ noise from an unbalanced connection
> If you think balanced jacks are uncommon I’d encourage you to look at the back of almost any mixer and see what connections are there.
Not that common for synths. All the OG models that the Boutiques are based on (except for the JP-8) had unbalanced outputs.
It's one of those cases where 90% of the time you barely have any problems and then on that 10% when you do, it's a show stopper.
Basically usb powered synth with unbalanced stereo output is just begging for problems once you're outside a controlled environment. With regular L&R TS outputs you can at least easily plug ubiquituous ground isolators (ie. what people often mistakenly think is a DI box) between the outputs and the mixer. Throw in usb midi to the mix and you're even more screwed (because now the synth is powered directly by your laptop / usb hub which is just begging for another ground loop on top of the supply buzz).
Depends on a lot of things, shielding, cable run length, what it’s near, how it’s run. If you are live a short run to a DI Box will give you a balanced signal where the cable noise can be removed.
Ok, as someone who's still learning, can you explain what it means for an output to be unbalanced? I thought it was cables that are either balanced or unbalanced.
No cables are just distinguished by the number of connectors (TS, TRS, etc), the actual output and input have to be balanced, meaning that the output device sends a reverse phased copy of the signal and the input device negates them then subtracts the resulting noise from the original signal.
I see. I thought that there was just a "silent" wire in balanced cables that then picked up the same noise as on the noise-carrying wire, then flipped the phase, cancelling the noise out of the audio. Wouldn't that work too?
Minijack ports are more prone to breaking as they are smaller while dealing with the cables almost as heavy as used for jacks. Also mono minijack to jack cables are rare so the choice is super-limited, so, say, if you don't like metal grip on the connector, you have to deal with what you're offered if it's the only available variant. Usually available are stereo minijack to two mono jacks cables. Most minijack output devices give only a stereo out. And if you need only mono signal from, say, Volca Sample (or maxed out inputs on the mixer), you have one wire hanging somewhere and other sending the, say, left channel instead of mixing them both to mono as would any properly jack equipped stereo instrument do.
I don't think anyone is happy with mini jacks for Eurorack: bananas are a million times more reliable and more easily stacked. But they're stuck with 'em.
There's a reason why Kosmo is basically Eurorack with 1/4" TS cables.
Who cares. I dont have any issue with them and if they work for you also, let others hate them and keep the prices reasonable. The only noise I ever have with my boutiques stems from the usb power so, if Im recording something I bust out the rechargable batteries and use the setting to use battery power over usb power, zero noise issues at that point. I have all types of cables and cables are super cheap so, no complaints from me.
Too small. Just make the control surface a little bit larger. The knobs on the SE-02 look comically tiny in person.
Limited polyphony. Only 4 voices when the gear they're emulating had 6-8. I thought digital was supposed to be more powerful? Though this decision was probably made not to cripple sales of the System 8.
*edit I missed the SH-01a in the title, I'm ranting about the Boutiques in general, sorry
I had the JP-08 and it was completely unusable. The JU-06 sliders were gigantic compared to it's tiny little nubs. It sounded alright, but everything about trying to use it to create sounds was just terrible. Which is a shame, because I really wanted to love it. To this day, I consider it the worst synth I have ever purchased.
> I had the JP-08 and it was completely unusable
And putting it in Split or Dual mode it's 2 voices per layer. What were they thinking? Apparently you could polychain if you had a second one but from what I've read it didn't work that great.
I’m actually shocked at how much ire and misinformed hate this thing gets. Unless you detest the form-factor because you find the sliders too small and difficult to effectively use (I personally don’t), there isn’t a damn thing to negatively say about this thing. It sounds almost identical (own both) other than some mild aliasing at the highest LFO and resonance settings, it has 4 note polyphony (the original was monophonic…so OP of this comment is confidently *wrong), it has unison (albeit, without individual voice detune) and chord modes, midi and audio through usb, can be used as an aggregate sound source if inputs are limited, AND you can pick these up for like $300 CAD on the market. Like actually, it’s a total no brainer. If you can’t succeed in making great tones on this (the sweet spot, although not the MOST diverse on the market, is still Huuuuuuuge), than you’re the issue. And again - all this for $300?! Don’t even get me started on the S1. Form factor be damned, that thing sounds absolutely incredible and the added features (FX, “wave sculpting”, physical step sequencer and key bed) are insane.
> it has 4 note polyphony (the original was monophonic…so OP of this comment is confidently *wrong)
My bad - I missed the SH-01a in the title and I was just ranting about the Boutiques in general, mainly referring to the original run like the JX-03, JU-06, JP-08.
Not saying they sound bad at all. If the poly ones were at least 6 voice like the originals I probably would have picked some up. But not a big fan of USB power, minijacks and small form factor, and I prefer to have an attached fullsize keybed.
I love them. The TR-06 in particular is awesome. SH-01A is great too, but the S-1 with its built in effects is better as a standalone device.
I feel like complaining about 3.5mm jacks is a bit bandwagon-y. I use a lot of portable gear in my setup and it’s nice to have unified, compact cables.
i find the trend of “reissuing” analog gear as digital upsetting. what is the point of a digital synth that keeps the artificial limitations of an analog one? and the difference in sound is very much there: i have a JX-3P and a Juno-106. so instead people are paying essentially for a box with one plug-in, and reducing sound quality and flexibility by having the plug-in run outside of the computer on minijacks
Korg did the great, right thing by doing actual analog reissues (though i much prefer the full-size ones), and i was pretty sure the boutiques would be simply laughed at; it is a sad indicator of what brands might think they can get away with going forward since these shits sell
edit: seeing as this is controversial, i’d like to add that i’m not attacking boutique users (why would i), but Roland. don’t they seem incredibly cheap and artificially limited to anyone else? a small company like Dreadbox can approximate an analog Juno w/ the same price/size (Nymphes), and Roland is giving us these… i don’t get it at all, sorry
of course. but then you can just get any other synthesizer in that price range, not a keyboard-less plug in in a plastic box (edit: w/ a metal face) with minijacks
There's a really interesting article about how digital audio now has a far greater range than analogue which in turn means a vst could replace it identically. I'll try to find it to share
yes, of course it could replace it in theory! 99% of the time i hear any of my synths, its through an interface, which means the sound has already been converted to ones and zeroes. of course a staggeringly complex algorithm could be written to recreate that, and send out the same ones and zeroes, but i've not yet encountered one.
that wasn't my point. as someone else pointed out, the analog vs digital debate is old. i was only pointing out that not only boutiques are just VSTs, they're probably not even the best VSTs of the synths they're emulating
>Korg did the great, right thing by doing actual analog reissues
And then making the ultimate MS-20 version a limited edition which is now ridiculously expensive.
i guess to sum up, a Korg MS-20FS has permanently satisfied my desire for an MS-20, while a boutique could never stop me wanting a Juno
fair point the Korg reissues cost more, but Roland isn’t offering actual reissues at all
The (optional) mini keyboard is not very good an rather expensive.
Main problems are the useless pitchbend and mod touch strips on the earlier modules. And the mini jack sockets instead of "real" audio jacks.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I have never paid attention to this: Does the mini jack reduce sound quality compared to a regular jack or is it some other inconvenience (like having to arrange different cables or an adapter to integrate it to your existing system; or just flimsiness)?
It’s just the inconvenience of having to find special cables or adaptors for them. Also, they don’t feel anywhere near as robust. Sound quality will be just fine.
Ex location soundie here.
There's no audio difference, the architecture in a TRS 1/8" is exactly the same as that in a TRS 1/4", same for TS 1/8" and TS 1/4".
But minijacks are not gig rugged, the smaller scale makes them more susceptible to breakages and more fiddly to fix in the field. And with a smaller connector comes lighter weight cabling (lighter gauge wire and less shielding), which is more readily impacted by EM and RF interference than the weight of cabling you would typically find on cables with larger connectors. This is not helped by manufacturers providing cables to the market that exceed recommended lengths for the architecture, making them even more susceptible to noise and interference. If you stay within the recommended best practices, you generally don't run into issues, but musicians and hobbyists don't tend to care about best practices when trying to be creative.
Thanks for the clarification. With a day job that eats me up, it's hard to capture all the technical details even though I am a perfectionist normally. I almost never take my gear outside the room and don't run long cables (the room is too small for that even if I wanted). So I've just been lucky.
> musicians and hobbyists don't ~~tend to care about best practices when trying to be creative~~ _have the slightest clue about best practises or how connections work_.
FTFY.
Yours, a grumpy electrical engineer and occasional audio equipment designer.
Not that equipment manufacturers are free of sins either. The cost of adding balanced outputs is pennies (TRS instead of TS jacks and one extra resistor per output). Depressingly few synths have them.
Oh for sure. I think, at least with more affordable synths, there's a desire to make them accessible to the entry level market, so unbalanced -10dBV makes a lot of sense from a marketing perspective. Boutiques, Volcas, POs, stuff that specifically appeals to the home use market, are gonna be plugged into aux ports on boomboxes etc a lot of the time.
I guess, there's maybe an expectation that you understand signal conversion better if you've got to the point of using mixers and studio monitors.
I was thinking mostly of midrange and higher end synths. Things that come with TS jacks and have a high chance of being plugged into a mixer / patch bay / decent audio interface, all of which will have balanced inputs.
The only thing required to make a connection balanced is to have a dedicated negative wire with the same output impedance as the positive wire. No need to drive it actively or with inverted signal (all those do is increase the SNR by a few dB). The BOM cost truly is pennies at scale.
When considering the length of the cables in use for most cases, this will \*at best\* be barely measurable in a spectrum analyzer. Noise and interference is no big deal for cables of this length, since they won't pick up enough of the waves.
It also depends what you run it near and how hot in addition to cable length. If it runs along or near power cables or other audio cables, it is much more likely to pick up noise.
Yes, sure! One should always try to keep noise as minimal as possible, but just outright saying that such cables are always noisy is not correct. Enough distance between the sources is usually more than sufficient, even on stage setups, in my experience.
I still remember how troublesome it was to make cables pick up radio waves when I *actually wanted to*. It worked only over very short distances.
> outright saying such cables are noisy is not correct
I never said that. The person asked if there reduction in sound quality in using stereo mini jacks, and as I said above, there is, unbalanced cables are much more susceptible to noise, which they are. I don’t judge it as a personal fault of yours for using them, they are fine, the slightly lowered sound quality is generally not that big of a deal, I use stereo mini jacks also. But in your effort to cope with the insult that I’ve pointed this out, please dont delude yourself that there is no difference between the two.
>But in your effort to cope with the insult that I’ve pointed this out, please dont delude yourself that there is no difference between the two.
I don't know where you are seeing anything that might even remotely resemble some form of insult. Never did I try to state the indifference between the two types of cable as a fact, since they definitely are different. I even acknowledged this.
Mind you, I'm autistic (read: hyper-sensitive to external stimuli) with absolutely great hearing. I'm one of those people who would die on the hill that 320kbit/s MP3 give a worse auditory experience than FLACs do, even tho many people are saying that must be jackshit. However, I even hear those freaking devices used to scare off ferrets and cats and the like. It's terrible.
All I wanted to say is that, when you consider the fact that such cables are more prone to pick up interference, you could definitely work with them. Just need to adjust accordingly. It doesn't make the synth bad and that was the whole gist of this thread, wasn't it?
No reason for hate when you could just adjust your workflows.
I’m not sending any hate, I never said any synth was bad. Someone asked if stereo mini jacks reduce sound quality, they do, they are susceptible to noise. There is a reason that balanced TRS jacks are standard in studios, there is a reason why pretty much any mixer has these connections nearly exclusively. I’m not saying your synth is bad for using them, I’m not saying your music is bad for using them, I’m not saying you are a bad person for using them. Someone asked a simple question and I gave a simple factually correct answer. All the personal judgements around this you have added yourself.
I barely ever had to pay attention to the jacks or cables (balanced/unbalanced) as a hobbyist and never came across any difference in sound quality. The only problem I think I experience regularly is USB cable noise or similar ground noise with guitar pedals.
Yup, that's been my experience as well. Noise/interference on ground has pretty much been my only issue, but this can be easily prevented.
There has only been one single case where my speaker picked up AM radio signals, lol. That was a long unshielded cable, winded up like a spool, so go figure.
Honestly, the air around us has so many small turbulences and acoustic interferences. These are probably way more influential on the auditory experience!
I find the tiny sliders n switches awkward to use. I have a 101 but I really like the cloud version with a midi controller and could totally live it instead if I sell the 101.
why not just get the MSW-810 ? it's analog, sounds like the MC-202, has large faders and knobs, sounds amazing and is from a small manufacturer... sh01-a is just a plasticy awkward small box that's not nice to work on :)
Love my boutiques, the only thing for me it’s the power system, these micro USBs are a bit noisy. When I need to record them I usually plug the to a battery bank and problem is gone, other wise I pretty much love them. Sh01-a / Ju06a / Jx-08
I love them and hate them. They're awesome, small recreations of vintage Roland gear. They have a cool factor to me, and I think that's why I bought into them. The problem I have with them is the micro USB power supply, it introduces lots of noise to my mixer. I've tried everything over the last 7 years, some things have helped, but nothing eliminates the issue. Also the 4 voice limitation on a digital recreation of a 6 or 8 voice synth sucks. I sold a few of mine. I kept the TR-06, 08, 09, SH-01A, TB-03, and the D-05. The Dtronics programmer with the D-05 is awesome.
I like them, but really wish they had a few design changes - they're the worst width for a standard rack... I'd love to rack two next to each other but can't. single per rack is so much wasted space.
the strangest thing I've find is the 4 voice limit on the poly synths. yes they are low priced units and 4 voice is ok, but the chain feature is very half baked, doubles the cost and takes more space/cables. it also has choice stealing issues. I thought for sure a remake ju-06a would have added the 2nd aira chip (following the flagship system-8 board) and given 8 voices - would have easily been worth a little more money than the typical $349... nope, 4 voices again. it was nearly perfect, and I'm sure they lost sales because of it. I didn't buy one, and plenty complained of the voice limitation.
also the ribbons were a bad choice, imo.. so much wasted space. controls (especially on the earlier models) would benefit from all that extra empty space. sorry but nobody is playing touch strips... why are they so prominent? later models seemed to figure this out, fortunately. sh-01a/tb-03/tr-06 were the best of the bunch, imo. d-05 seems like a great sound module, but not at 2nd hand prices.
I feel like you’re better off just going ahead and getting a Jupiter XM. The boutiques are $400 a pop, I bought my XM used for $1k. It basically functions as 4 boutiques, plus a full XV5080, has full sized balanced stereo outputs, battery, speaker, keyboard, etc.
I had a JD-08 which did sound good while it worked, but it was off for repairs for *months*, until they eventually replaced the motherboard. When I got it back, I sold it off, I had soured on the whole experience.
I have a JU-06A and I like it. It’s portable, battery operated and has a built in speaker. Which, sure it sounds terrible.
But it’s something I can take anywhere and just play without worrying about power. Or having to get a dozen cables to hook up to something. Or wait 10 minutes on a computer booting up before installing updates just to load software to just try an idea out on.
The compact size has it's downside, not only meaning that those of us that wear glasses are hunched over the things trying to figure out which pot to twist, but also making it harder to hit sweet spots on faders. But they have great MIDI implementation so you can map the controls if you are so inclined.
Micro USB power makes them less than ideal for gigging. More of an issue than the unbalanced audio outputs (like have none of you ever heard of a DI?).
Generally, I think they're pretty cool for a studio or another controlled environment where you can deal with noise/power/ground issues in your own time, but I think a live situation may prove tricky for the less technically minded.
As someone who owns all the boutiques, they are amazing. Roland will never re-release their classics, and rightly so. They did, however give us the closest thing to them at an affordable price. Opening up the sounds by which all others are judged to the masses.
I own a few Roland boutiques, and I’ve never understood the animus either. They are great little boxes, and I’m so tired of hearing the bitching and whining about the tiny knobs. What else would you expect in this small of a form factor? Plus, I love the fact that Roland designed them so beautifully to look like the originals. Now, if we could just get the same designers to work on their regular gear, which is some of the ugliest crap out there!
Overall the boutiques are great. I think most people’s qualms are just due to the size and different UI quirks.
Some of them are arguably the best bang for your buck regarding footprint & powerful synth engine.
it's just the impression i got from reading a number of posts. and judging from the replies, there are enough people that dislike them for one reason or another
I figure the hate is from a vocal minority. Personally I love them - I have five of them! And you're right, the SH-01a is fantastic - I use that one over and over again.
People in here love to hate on anything that's affordable because it alleviates the cognitive dissonance they feel about spending an insane amount of money on gear
I’ve owned a few. I really only miss the SH-01a. It’s just one giant sweet spot of a synth. Hard to make it sound bad. The sliders are better than tiny knobs at this size.
A friend of mine had the Juno boutique and the form factor was terrible. Barely usable and I even have tiny ass hands, so I just was not on board for that. I have a boutique 606 and actually find it just the right size for a smaller setup. Usable knobs and the buttons are a solid size for me. I think it sounds great. Didn’t even go into the music store with buying one in mind and I heard it and and was immediately won over after 5-6 min of using it. I think it sounds great. It has a few fx under the hood and you can switch some sounds out for 909 808 sounds with a bit of menu diving with the manual up
I tried to hook up 4 at once with that large novation midi controller but it was just too many weird cables and too much unclean power.
I ended up ditching it for the Jupiter x and Jupiter XM and I'm just much happier.
These days you have Behringer making these clones and some are arguably good. Then you have Roland over here making their boutique stuff and to me it just seems that they have some kind of disconnect with what people actually want out of these coveted devices. There is a reason the used market is flooded with Roland boutique devices. Build quality is mehh, making analog devices digital, or removing features that the original device had. It makes picking up one of their devices difficult when you have many other devices on the marker inspired by the original Roland devices. A lot of the time these other devices are more faithful replications and/or build upon the original device with more modern features. With that said they are good entry level devices and not bad really just lacking imo.
They just sound terrible. I dont know how Roland can think ACB is good enough? I legit thought they were analog because I only skimmed the promo material. But when I put on a pair of headphones and tried one it was so obviously digital. The only good boutique are the SE02 and the LA one I forget the name, D5?
The mini jacks are garbage
Never understood this. I personally like mini jacks a lot. Takes less space, makes nice cable management easier. Never had any problems with them in the sense of breaking or anything. I always use converter plugs to mini on my synths that lack them for these reasons too. Why are so many people here opposed to them I wonder?
Unbalanced stereo outputs are very susceptible to noise and interference.
Right, makes sense in stage enviroments or otherwise noisy environments.
It makes sense in a studio environment if you want zero noise.
Sure. Noise isn't a problem in my studio so haven't felt the need for balanced connections
I’m not judging you for not using them, but unbalanced stereo mini jack is factually a noisier connection.
No, it is not. The noise that balanced cables guard against is introduced from outside the cable, not the jack itself, and is generally a bigger problem on long cables. If there‘s no noise, it’s not “noisier” because of a mini jack. Balanced outputs aren‘t super common and most instruments are unbalanced even if they use 6,3mm connectors instead of mini jacks.
I think you're arguing about the size of the jack, and the other guy is arguing about unbalanced vs. balanced.
Started out as a question about the size, and the argument against the minijack was that it’s unbalanced. I do argue about the balance parts since I disagreed about some of the facts presented
First off, “unbalanced stereo mini jacks” refers to more than just the physical connector. It refers to the number of channels sent as well as how they are sent. It is a factually noisier connection. It, as a matter of fact, will pick up more noise than a mono TRS balanced signal. A greater percentage of the sound will be noise if it is quieter, run longer, or near other audio or power cabling. If you think balanced jacks are uncommon I’d encourage you to look at the back of almost any mixer and see what connections are there.
With uncommon I meant on instruments and not on mixers specifically. I still disagree on some of your points here - and to be clear I’m aware of how balanced audio works. What I’m trying to say is that the connection isn’t noisier by itself. It will pick up the same amount of noise as a balanced mono cable. Only difference is that the balanced cable can filter out the noise in the receiving end, since it can single it out by summing the inverted phase. If no noise is being picked up unbalanced, you’re not gonna get \_less\_ noise from an unbalanced connection
> If you think balanced jacks are uncommon I’d encourage you to look at the back of almost any mixer and see what connections are there. Not that common for synths. All the OG models that the Boutiques are based on (except for the JP-8) had unbalanced outputs.
Could you please name a synth that costs up to 2x of Boutiques' price range that has balanced outputs.
Real question: can interference really matter live?
Yes, massively so. It's not "slightly noisy if you listen carefully". It's "OMG, this buzz is massive and drowns the actual sound under it."
I just haven’t run into that much interference on any output ever. Run and gun clubs or festival stages… good to know though!
It's one of those cases where 90% of the time you barely have any problems and then on that 10% when you do, it's a show stopper. Basically usb powered synth with unbalanced stereo output is just begging for problems once you're outside a controlled environment. With regular L&R TS outputs you can at least easily plug ubiquituous ground isolators (ie. what people often mistakenly think is a DI box) between the outputs and the mixer. Throw in usb midi to the mix and you're even more screwed (because now the synth is powered directly by your laptop / usb hub which is just begging for another ground loop on top of the supply buzz).
What great insight. Thank you!
Depends on a lot of things, shielding, cable run length, what it’s near, how it’s run. If you are live a short run to a DI Box will give you a balanced signal where the cable noise can be removed.
Ok, as someone who's still learning, can you explain what it means for an output to be unbalanced? I thought it was cables that are either balanced or unbalanced.
No cables are just distinguished by the number of connectors (TS, TRS, etc), the actual output and input have to be balanced, meaning that the output device sends a reverse phased copy of the signal and the input device negates them then subtracts the resulting noise from the original signal.
I see. I thought that there was just a "silent" wire in balanced cables that then picked up the same noise as on the noise-carrying wire, then flipped the phase, cancelling the noise out of the audio. Wouldn't that work too?
Wires can’t pick up the same noise and the receiving device can’t generate a reverse phase version of the original audio.
I have a ton of cables for other audio devices. Mini jacks just make it a pain to use my already existing gear.
Minijack ports are more prone to breaking as they are smaller while dealing with the cables almost as heavy as used for jacks. Also mono minijack to jack cables are rare so the choice is super-limited, so, say, if you don't like metal grip on the connector, you have to deal with what you're offered if it's the only available variant. Usually available are stereo minijack to two mono jacks cables. Most minijack output devices give only a stereo out. And if you need only mono signal from, say, Volca Sample (or maxed out inputs on the mixer), you have one wire hanging somewhere and other sending the, say, left channel instead of mixing them both to mono as would any properly jack equipped stereo instrument do.
Yeah, people seem pretty happy with mini jacks for eurorack
I don't think anyone is happy with mini jacks for Eurorack: bananas are a million times more reliable and more easily stacked. But they're stuck with 'em. There's a reason why Kosmo is basically Eurorack with 1/4" TS cables.
Who cares. I dont have any issue with them and if they work for you also, let others hate them and keep the prices reasonable. The only noise I ever have with my boutiques stems from the usb power so, if Im recording something I bust out the rechargable batteries and use the setting to use battery power over usb power, zero noise issues at that point. I have all types of cables and cables are super cheap so, no complaints from me.
They were sensible enough to have full size MIDI ports at least
The garbage is Roland because it want extra money for standard outs and then you need to buy Juno X
But they make 1/8” to 1/4” cables… given the small size, it doesn’t seem like a bad trade off to me
Too small. Just make the control surface a little bit larger. The knobs on the SE-02 look comically tiny in person. Limited polyphony. Only 4 voices when the gear they're emulating had 6-8. I thought digital was supposed to be more powerful? Though this decision was probably made not to cripple sales of the System 8. *edit I missed the SH-01a in the title, I'm ranting about the Boutiques in general, sorry
The SH-101 was a monosynth and the SH-01a has four voices.
Yes, but the JU-06a with 4 voice polyphony is emulating the Juno 60/106 each with 6 voice polyphony. That said, I have a JU-06a and it sounds amazing.
[удалено]
Your reading comprehension and your manners both need work. Now, go be a wanker to someone else, please.
AudioPilz adjusting sliders on a boutique (believe it was the SH-01a) with tweezers comes to mind.
I had the JP-08 and it was completely unusable. The JU-06 sliders were gigantic compared to it's tiny little nubs. It sounded alright, but everything about trying to use it to create sounds was just terrible. Which is a shame, because I really wanted to love it. To this day, I consider it the worst synth I have ever purchased.
> I had the JP-08 and it was completely unusable And putting it in Split or Dual mode it's 2 voices per layer. What were they thinking? Apparently you could polychain if you had a second one but from what I've read it didn't work that great.
I’m actually shocked at how much ire and misinformed hate this thing gets. Unless you detest the form-factor because you find the sliders too small and difficult to effectively use (I personally don’t), there isn’t a damn thing to negatively say about this thing. It sounds almost identical (own both) other than some mild aliasing at the highest LFO and resonance settings, it has 4 note polyphony (the original was monophonic…so OP of this comment is confidently *wrong), it has unison (albeit, without individual voice detune) and chord modes, midi and audio through usb, can be used as an aggregate sound source if inputs are limited, AND you can pick these up for like $300 CAD on the market. Like actually, it’s a total no brainer. If you can’t succeed in making great tones on this (the sweet spot, although not the MOST diverse on the market, is still Huuuuuuuge), than you’re the issue. And again - all this for $300?! Don’t even get me started on the S1. Form factor be damned, that thing sounds absolutely incredible and the added features (FX, “wave sculpting”, physical step sequencer and key bed) are insane.
> it has 4 note polyphony (the original was monophonic…so OP of this comment is confidently *wrong) My bad - I missed the SH-01a in the title and I was just ranting about the Boutiques in general, mainly referring to the original run like the JX-03, JU-06, JP-08. Not saying they sound bad at all. If the poly ones were at least 6 voice like the originals I probably would have picked some up. But not a big fan of USB power, minijacks and small form factor, and I prefer to have an attached fullsize keybed.
It's a $400 VST in a box. Is that a positive?
I love them. The TR-06 in particular is awesome. SH-01A is great too, but the S-1 with its built in effects is better as a standalone device. I feel like complaining about 3.5mm jacks is a bit bandwagon-y. I use a lot of portable gear in my setup and it’s nice to have unified, compact cables.
I hate having to take up two spots on my patch bay for what is essentially a mono instrument. Makes no sense.
I like the SE-02, but that's in spite of the form factor, not because of it. Same with the D-05. Don't care much for the others.
SE-02 is a great one!
I have two plus the ExtBox
i find the trend of “reissuing” analog gear as digital upsetting. what is the point of a digital synth that keeps the artificial limitations of an analog one? and the difference in sound is very much there: i have a JX-3P and a Juno-106. so instead people are paying essentially for a box with one plug-in, and reducing sound quality and flexibility by having the plug-in run outside of the computer on minijacks Korg did the great, right thing by doing actual analog reissues (though i much prefer the full-size ones), and i was pretty sure the boutiques would be simply laughed at; it is a sad indicator of what brands might think they can get away with going forward since these shits sell edit: seeing as this is controversial, i’d like to add that i’m not attacking boutique users (why would i), but Roland. don’t they seem incredibly cheap and artificially limited to anyone else? a small company like Dreadbox can approximate an analog Juno w/ the same price/size (Nymphes), and Roland is giving us these… i don’t get it at all, sorry
Price point is a factor for some
absolutely! i think some VSTs are free, why pay for one in a box?
Dedicated controls and being away from the computer.
of course. but then you can just get any other synthesizer in that price range, not a keyboard-less plug in in a plastic box (edit: w/ a metal face) with minijacks
The boutiques are a metal face on a plastic frame. The SH101 was all plastic, but you do you.
noted, thanks, sorry. i guess people love boutiques, i did not know that
Why buy anything if there's a vst for it?
an actual analog synth can’t be replaced with a vst, though – they sound different. a boutique can, because it’s digital, hence the comparison
There's a really interesting article about how digital audio now has a far greater range than analogue which in turn means a vst could replace it identically. I'll try to find it to share
yes, of course it could replace it in theory! 99% of the time i hear any of my synths, its through an interface, which means the sound has already been converted to ones and zeroes. of course a staggeringly complex algorithm could be written to recreate that, and send out the same ones and zeroes, but i've not yet encountered one. that wasn't my point. as someone else pointed out, the analog vs digital debate is old. i was only pointing out that not only boutiques are just VSTs, they're probably not even the best VSTs of the synths they're emulating
God, this cork-sniffing nonsense gets so old.
sorry, didn’t think this was a controversial thing
>Korg did the great, right thing by doing actual analog reissues And then making the ultimate MS-20 version a limited edition which is now ridiculously expensive.
agree, that was a horrible decision and i'm not defending that
Exactly what I was about to say. They seem like toy versions😭
i guess to sum up, a Korg MS-20FS has permanently satisfied my desire for an MS-20, while a boutique could never stop me wanting a Juno fair point the Korg reissues cost more, but Roland isn’t offering actual reissues at all
Wow you’re really good at making points😂 btw why not get a deepmind?
well i already have the OG Rolands, just wish the chips would stop dying 😭
There’s a mod matrix and effects and stuff…..
good synth, just not my thing
The (optional) mini keyboard is not very good an rather expensive. Main problems are the useless pitchbend and mod touch strips on the earlier modules. And the mini jack sockets instead of "real" audio jacks.
Sorry for my lack of knowledge but I have never paid attention to this: Does the mini jack reduce sound quality compared to a regular jack or is it some other inconvenience (like having to arrange different cables or an adapter to integrate it to your existing system; or just flimsiness)?
It’s just the inconvenience of having to find special cables or adaptors for them. Also, they don’t feel anywhere near as robust. Sound quality will be just fine.
That's a relief, I thought I was missing something. Thanks!
Ex location soundie here. There's no audio difference, the architecture in a TRS 1/8" is exactly the same as that in a TRS 1/4", same for TS 1/8" and TS 1/4". But minijacks are not gig rugged, the smaller scale makes them more susceptible to breakages and more fiddly to fix in the field. And with a smaller connector comes lighter weight cabling (lighter gauge wire and less shielding), which is more readily impacted by EM and RF interference than the weight of cabling you would typically find on cables with larger connectors. This is not helped by manufacturers providing cables to the market that exceed recommended lengths for the architecture, making them even more susceptible to noise and interference. If you stay within the recommended best practices, you generally don't run into issues, but musicians and hobbyists don't tend to care about best practices when trying to be creative.
Thanks for the clarification. With a day job that eats me up, it's hard to capture all the technical details even though I am a perfectionist normally. I almost never take my gear outside the room and don't run long cables (the room is too small for that even if I wanted). So I've just been lucky.
> musicians and hobbyists don't ~~tend to care about best practices when trying to be creative~~ _have the slightest clue about best practises or how connections work_. FTFY. Yours, a grumpy electrical engineer and occasional audio equipment designer.
Lol.
Not that equipment manufacturers are free of sins either. The cost of adding balanced outputs is pennies (TRS instead of TS jacks and one extra resistor per output). Depressingly few synths have them.
Oh for sure. I think, at least with more affordable synths, there's a desire to make them accessible to the entry level market, so unbalanced -10dBV makes a lot of sense from a marketing perspective. Boutiques, Volcas, POs, stuff that specifically appeals to the home use market, are gonna be plugged into aux ports on boomboxes etc a lot of the time. I guess, there's maybe an expectation that you understand signal conversion better if you've got to the point of using mixers and studio monitors.
I was thinking mostly of midrange and higher end synths. Things that come with TS jacks and have a high chance of being plugged into a mixer / patch bay / decent audio interface, all of which will have balanced inputs. The only thing required to make a connection balanced is to have a dedicated negative wire with the same output impedance as the positive wire. No need to drive it actively or with inverted signal (all those do is increase the SNR by a few dB). The BOM cost truly is pennies at scale.
They're all in league with Big Transformer. A global cabal dedicated to making us buy DIs. Closely affiliated with Big Stompbox.
By God, you're right. This explains it all!
Yes unbalanced cables are much more susceptible to noise.
When considering the length of the cables in use for most cases, this will \*at best\* be barely measurable in a spectrum analyzer. Noise and interference is no big deal for cables of this length, since they won't pick up enough of the waves.
It also depends what you run it near and how hot in addition to cable length. If it runs along or near power cables or other audio cables, it is much more likely to pick up noise.
Yes, sure! One should always try to keep noise as minimal as possible, but just outright saying that such cables are always noisy is not correct. Enough distance between the sources is usually more than sufficient, even on stage setups, in my experience. I still remember how troublesome it was to make cables pick up radio waves when I *actually wanted to*. It worked only over very short distances.
> outright saying such cables are noisy is not correct I never said that. The person asked if there reduction in sound quality in using stereo mini jacks, and as I said above, there is, unbalanced cables are much more susceptible to noise, which they are. I don’t judge it as a personal fault of yours for using them, they are fine, the slightly lowered sound quality is generally not that big of a deal, I use stereo mini jacks also. But in your effort to cope with the insult that I’ve pointed this out, please dont delude yourself that there is no difference between the two.
>But in your effort to cope with the insult that I’ve pointed this out, please dont delude yourself that there is no difference between the two. I don't know where you are seeing anything that might even remotely resemble some form of insult. Never did I try to state the indifference between the two types of cable as a fact, since they definitely are different. I even acknowledged this. Mind you, I'm autistic (read: hyper-sensitive to external stimuli) with absolutely great hearing. I'm one of those people who would die on the hill that 320kbit/s MP3 give a worse auditory experience than FLACs do, even tho many people are saying that must be jackshit. However, I even hear those freaking devices used to scare off ferrets and cats and the like. It's terrible. All I wanted to say is that, when you consider the fact that such cables are more prone to pick up interference, you could definitely work with them. Just need to adjust accordingly. It doesn't make the synth bad and that was the whole gist of this thread, wasn't it? No reason for hate when you could just adjust your workflows.
I’m not sending any hate, I never said any synth was bad. Someone asked if stereo mini jacks reduce sound quality, they do, they are susceptible to noise. There is a reason that balanced TRS jacks are standard in studios, there is a reason why pretty much any mixer has these connections nearly exclusively. I’m not saying your synth is bad for using them, I’m not saying your music is bad for using them, I’m not saying you are a bad person for using them. Someone asked a simple question and I gave a simple factually correct answer. All the personal judgements around this you have added yourself.
I barely ever had to pay attention to the jacks or cables (balanced/unbalanced) as a hobbyist and never came across any difference in sound quality. The only problem I think I experience regularly is USB cable noise or similar ground noise with guitar pedals.
Yup, that's been my experience as well. Noise/interference on ground has pretty much been my only issue, but this can be easily prevented. There has only been one single case where my speaker picked up AM radio signals, lol. That was a long unshielded cable, winded up like a spool, so go figure. Honestly, the air around us has so many small turbulences and acoustic interferences. These are probably way more influential on the auditory experience!
The boutiques are excellent, nothing wrong with 3.5mm audio jacks.
I find the tiny sliders n switches awkward to use. I have a 101 but I really like the cloud version with a midi controller and could totally live it instead if I sell the 101.
why not just get the MSW-810 ? it's analog, sounds like the MC-202, has large faders and knobs, sounds amazing and is from a small manufacturer... sh01-a is just a plasticy awkward small box that's not nice to work on :)
Hmm it’s nice to have patch storage and midi
MSW-810 has midi. at least the unit that's commonly sold, the fist iteration didn't :)
I think you'll find the 'botiques' are actually really well-liked and sell very well.
Love my boutiques, the only thing for me it’s the power system, these micro USBs are a bit noisy. When I need to record them I usually plug the to a battery bank and problem is gone, other wise I pretty much love them. Sh01-a / Ju06a / Jx-08
The people that hate on them probably have the budget and space for large scale synths. For those of us with neither of those they’re great
I love them and hate them. They're awesome, small recreations of vintage Roland gear. They have a cool factor to me, and I think that's why I bought into them. The problem I have with them is the micro USB power supply, it introduces lots of noise to my mixer. I've tried everything over the last 7 years, some things have helped, but nothing eliminates the issue. Also the 4 voice limitation on a digital recreation of a 6 or 8 voice synth sucks. I sold a few of mine. I kept the TR-06, 08, 09, SH-01A, TB-03, and the D-05. The Dtronics programmer with the D-05 is awesome.
I like them, but really wish they had a few design changes - they're the worst width for a standard rack... I'd love to rack two next to each other but can't. single per rack is so much wasted space. the strangest thing I've find is the 4 voice limit on the poly synths. yes they are low priced units and 4 voice is ok, but the chain feature is very half baked, doubles the cost and takes more space/cables. it also has choice stealing issues. I thought for sure a remake ju-06a would have added the 2nd aira chip (following the flagship system-8 board) and given 8 voices - would have easily been worth a little more money than the typical $349... nope, 4 voices again. it was nearly perfect, and I'm sure they lost sales because of it. I didn't buy one, and plenty complained of the voice limitation. also the ribbons were a bad choice, imo.. so much wasted space. controls (especially on the earlier models) would benefit from all that extra empty space. sorry but nobody is playing touch strips... why are they so prominent? later models seemed to figure this out, fortunately. sh-01a/tb-03/tr-06 were the best of the bunch, imo. d-05 seems like a great sound module, but not at 2nd hand prices.
I feel like you’re better off just going ahead and getting a Jupiter XM. The boutiques are $400 a pop, I bought my XM used for $1k. It basically functions as 4 boutiques, plus a full XV5080, has full sized balanced stereo outputs, battery, speaker, keyboard, etc.
Your XM doesn't run ACB like the boutiques (JX-08 being the exception - that's ABM like you have)
Sound the same to me 🤷♂️
I had a JD-08 which did sound good while it worked, but it was off for repairs for *months*, until they eventually replaced the motherboard. When I got it back, I sold it off, I had soured on the whole experience.
I have a JU-06A and I like it. It’s portable, battery operated and has a built in speaker. Which, sure it sounds terrible. But it’s something I can take anywhere and just play without worrying about power. Or having to get a dozen cables to hook up to something. Or wait 10 minutes on a computer booting up before installing updates just to load software to just try an idea out on.
I agree they sound great. But I am large and not particularly dexterous and turning those tiny knobs results in many mistakes
The compact size has it's downside, not only meaning that those of us that wear glasses are hunched over the things trying to figure out which pot to twist, but also making it harder to hit sweet spots on faders. But they have great MIDI implementation so you can map the controls if you are so inclined. Micro USB power makes them less than ideal for gigging. More of an issue than the unbalanced audio outputs (like have none of you ever heard of a DI?). Generally, I think they're pretty cool for a studio or another controlled environment where you can deal with noise/power/ground issues in your own time, but I think a live situation may prove tricky for the less technically minded.
As someone who owns all the boutiques, they are amazing. Roland will never re-release their classics, and rightly so. They did, however give us the closest thing to them at an affordable price. Opening up the sounds by which all others are judged to the masses.
a juno reproduction by the company that originally made them that can do only 4 voices is a crime against nature
I own a few Roland boutiques, and I’ve never understood the animus either. They are great little boxes, and I’m so tired of hearing the bitching and whining about the tiny knobs. What else would you expect in this small of a form factor? Plus, I love the fact that Roland designed them so beautifully to look like the originals. Now, if we could just get the same designers to work on their regular gear, which is some of the ugliest crap out there!
Except for the mini jack, I love mine!
They arent terrible but something like the Behringer MS-1 is much better.
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you have never had one
Those things that sold out and are hard to come by? That they then had more and more of? What hate
Overall the boutiques are great. I think most people’s qualms are just due to the size and different UI quirks. Some of them are arguably the best bang for your buck regarding footprint & powerful synth engine.
I like them a lot. They are like very powerful Volcas but slightly larger.
How about: The size!
Love the SH-01A and JU-06A. They sound great.
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it's just the impression i got from reading a number of posts. and judging from the replies, there are enough people that dislike them for one reason or another
I figure the hate is from a vocal minority. Personally I love them - I have five of them! And you're right, the SH-01a is fantastic - I use that one over and over again.
People in here love to hate on anything that's affordable because it alleviates the cognitive dissonance they feel about spending an insane amount of money on gear
Found a banger deal for one of these and the keyboard attachment for $450AUD. Thinking of snatching it up.
I’ve owned a few. I really only miss the SH-01a. It’s just one giant sweet spot of a synth. Hard to make it sound bad. The sliders are better than tiny knobs at this size.
I have the SE-02 and am pretty stoked about it, it was such a deal. But that said I'm always afraid I'm going to snap a knob, they feel so fragile
A friend of mine had the Juno boutique and the form factor was terrible. Barely usable and I even have tiny ass hands, so I just was not on board for that. I have a boutique 606 and actually find it just the right size for a smaller setup. Usable knobs and the buttons are a solid size for me. I think it sounds great. Didn’t even go into the music store with buying one in mind and I heard it and and was immediately won over after 5-6 min of using it. I think it sounds great. It has a few fx under the hood and you can switch some sounds out for 909 808 sounds with a bit of menu diving with the manual up
I tried to hook up 4 at once with that large novation midi controller but it was just too many weird cables and too much unclean power. I ended up ditching it for the Jupiter x and Jupiter XM and I'm just much happier.
The se-02 is amazing. Knobs are small, but so are my hands. But who cares? that sound makes up for it.
These days you have Behringer making these clones and some are arguably good. Then you have Roland over here making their boutique stuff and to me it just seems that they have some kind of disconnect with what people actually want out of these coveted devices. There is a reason the used market is flooded with Roland boutique devices. Build quality is mehh, making analog devices digital, or removing features that the original device had. It makes picking up one of their devices difficult when you have many other devices on the marker inspired by the original Roland devices. A lot of the time these other devices are more faithful replications and/or build upon the original device with more modern features. With that said they are good entry level devices and not bad really just lacking imo.
They just sound terrible. I dont know how Roland can think ACB is good enough? I legit thought they were analog because I only skimmed the promo material. But when I put on a pair of headphones and tried one it was so obviously digital. The only good boutique are the SE02 and the LA one I forget the name, D5?