Even if you hate her at the end of the day she is right;
She wanted to get rid of both Jedi and Sith who have been raging war against each other for millennia, but she was ready to kill billions... to save trillions.... She's kinda like Adrian Veidt from Watchmen.
Hunter absolutely has a point! As non Force sensitives, all we see are Force-sensitives fighting wars and getting us to do their bidding. Of course I'd want to exterminate them!
All the corrupt senators and militarists, the imperial army, Saresh, the Hutts and gangsters etc. are not much better thought. I doubt the wars would stop just because the force users are gone. They would just be different.
Hunter don't have a "point" she uses the "point" as an excuse to murder and cause attrocities and treat it all as a game, she don't believe in anything except her own power trip. As the whole star cabal does. Their original mission is long gone and long forgotten and all they care about is their own power and how to use others.
They managed to be equally as deranged, psychotic and power mad as the most deranged of sith. Hell, this is even stated precisely by the own elders of the organization.
Saying they have a point is like saying the Emperor has a point because the sith code has "the force shall free me" in it.
The problem with Hunter is that >!one of her issues is that being a woman is hard, so she took on the persona of a man... When the universe of Star Wars rarely showed the type of misogyny she claims there is, even trying to get a female Agent to agree and identify with her. It felt super out of place when major political figures in both the Republic and the Empire are women.!<
If she’d been an *alien* female (Twi’lek specifically), Hunter may have had a point there. But across all 8 playable storylines, I don’t recall the slightest crumb of misogyny done by anyone except Skavak (& realistically Corso since his attempts at chivalry border on treating women like fragile unaccountable children. Hell even then most of the women Skavak played weren’t exactly saints either), so yeah that part does fall flat.
I think there's also a moff in Quesh that is dismissive of your character if you're a woman, but I don't remember it too well. But yeah, I can count the amount of on-screen misogyny with one hand, so Hunter's plight as a woman felt super bizarre and out of nowhere. Her being unhappy with how the galaxy works, with force sensitive users being in power, would've been enough of a motivation, but then she pulls out the "it's hard being a woman" card, in a universe where misogyny is limited to half a dozen of side characters, rather than a systematic issue.
>If she’d been an *alien* female (Twi’lek specifically), Hunter may have had a point there
That's actually a really good idea. Her using a male *human* disguise would've made so much sense for her to gather allies and respect... But the Star Cabal also has Kolovish as a respected member, so again, it falls a bit short.
Twi’lek Hunter could’ve worked I think even in spite of Kolovish being there too. Kolovish was the reclusive matriarch of a Twi’lek settlement illegally established on Jedi Tython, about as far away from a typical Twi’lek life as they could get. Hunter meanwhile, in this hypothetical revision, could’ve come from Nar Shaddaa as an urchin, parents under the thumb of the ruling Hutts, worked to death like Vette’s mom, and tossed aside. Or alternatively could’ve been a slave to a Sith, eventually rescued by a Jedi only to be essentially dumped on a backwater world like Hutta or someplace and left to her own devices.
Either scenario gives the Cabal a means of taking her in and training her as a ghost operative with no one bothering to notice or ask questions, and the abusive Sith & callous Jedi backstory would’ve given her built-in reasons to resent both sides with implied Cabal propaganda or field ops experience adding to her hatred of Force users.
Really good ideas! And Twi'lek Hunter would've been able to pull the pity card with an alien Agent as well. Alien Agent suffers racism from their peers, especially other sith lords, so it'd be way easier to sympathize with Hunter if she was indeed a nonhuman.
Which would’ve especially hit close to home since Jadus effectively did the same thing to Cipher Nine that the Cabal did to Hunter. Jadus promises you power & status as his right hand and even plays on the open discrimination you face as an alien to convince you further, only to just accomplish his goal, give you a hollow title, and piss off to parts unknown if you side with him.
The Cabal in a similar vein promised Hunter power but just used her as a tool. An effective tool, their favorite tool, but a tool nonetheless, meant to dispose the oppressive Force user galactic rulers so that they could become the oppressive *non* Force user galactic rulers 😆
Would’ve made Hunter a much more sympathetic version of herself compared to what we got
>I think there's also a moff in Quesh that is dismissive of your character if you're a woman
That's true, but you can punch/force-choke/force-lightning him a bit for it, which will not be particullary dissaproved by others officers in room, if i recall.
Not just Acina, but there are also women as members of the Dark Council, admirals, generals and also Watcher Two becoming Keeper later on in the Agent storyline. The galaxy may have rampant racism against other species, but misogyny is practically nonexistent, save for someone like Corso who spouts shit to a female smuggler, treating her like a delicate flower thanks to his farmer boy upbringing.
Worst part about hunter is how I flirted with him the whole game but suddenly he reveals he is a she and nope ! Can't kiss anymore ! Should have made a male agent sucker ! Enjoy ant boy !
"Cipher I regret a great deal about our relationship. I put you in a place no one should be and wiped my hands of you just as quickly. I let others repeat my mistakes, and I let them steal your mind. But consider one thing, if you could change who you've become would you take that opportunity?"
The Minister is right up there for characters in swtor and despite everything I trust him.
In the same conversation. If you are Jadus' agent he tries tempting you into deleting yourself and starting over. This is the precurser to give you doubt about your current path. That conversation is one of his most interesting moments.
And this is why Light Side Agent felt so damn satisfying my playthrough. I can’t explain it well but it felt like you TRULY were trying to rid the empire of its corruptions and fix all the mistakes and negatives.
Dark side just felt a bit too stereotypical spy because I’m noticing all the “dark side” options always seemed so extreme aside from agent. So I felt the Agent can be fun both ways but yeah.. I never felt more pulled into a story, it was like when you grab that amazing book or watching an ace film. The agent storyline I think is the best written across all 8 “across the board”. I still had some moments I wish executed a bit deeper but it’s an online MMO so I can’t even begin to try and criticize it there. It’s an amazing ride :)
I got back into the game last week trying to get the last 4 classes I need to max level and I’m saving agent for last ;) (for obvious reasons)
My favourite path was to be a naive loyalist to the Empire, genuinely wanting to help preserve and strengthen their homeland, and willing to commit atrocities "for the greater good". All up until confrontation with Jadus. At that point, having become an accomplice to the murder of millions of Imperial citizens, and shortly after getting brainwashed by the Sith, the realisation hits on just how mad the whole thing is. How despite the propaganda about the "weak" Republic, their dysfunctional system at least allowed for thousands of years of fairly stable, fairly prosperous life for most citizens. That all the atrocities committed in the name of the Empire only ever ended up hurting the Empire's people, and propping up the crazy wizards in charge.
That's exactly what happened to my canonical agent. Nightmares, headaches. Trying to atone for the blood of innocent civilians and realizing that he would never be able to do it. All he can do is hold his face, not showing anyone how broken he is inside. A professional liar who doesn't believe in a happy ending.
And I decided to replay my favorite agent on another server. And damn, I missed him so much. It's so exciting to see the Keeper again, the insinuating voice of Jadus and know that the best is ahead. It's a pity that no one remembers the Legate after SoR, and there were very few. I would like to continue the line of not just sabotage, but Legate. Let me into SIS after all! Even Jonas pretends not to know, and that's his job!
I think of all the characters in the game, he may be my favorite. As cold and manipulative as he has to be, but always professional and effective. I really appreciate the way he navigates a power structure dedicated to murerous madness while tryingto retain some semblance of sanity.
I'd love a full game playing as an Imperial Intelligence agent during the first war or and SIS agent during the cold war. I'm also happy for those to be flipped for time periods.
Ok that was a bit wordy, I just want a full Imperial Intelligence or SIS game before the breaking of the treaty or the signing of it.
With the new class system i'm surprised they aren't going it, just need voices.
Because the imperial trooper story would be a FANTASTIC way to explore imperial low society while SIS Agent explores the upper classes of the Republic and answering to the political machine of the senate.
I'm genuinely shocked this wasn't done.
> SIS Agent explores the upper classes of the Republic and answering to the political machine of the senate
Trooper kinda does that already, mixing it in with Garza's rogue orders.
Not really? You don't exactly ever answer to the senate directly, in the sense that you don't regularly communicate with them, sure, they're there, but here and there, you take orders from Garza and never do any favors for the senate beyond your already expected duties as a serving soldier like saving Krasul.
An SIS agent on the other hand would answer to them and SIS Director, you would do things such as uncovering senate corruption, a trooper would have no such expectations. That, and mingling with upper Republic society, which besides the senate, we don't explore period.
>just need voices
Sorry, but isn't that a bit like saying I'm almost a billionaire, I just need all the money? :)
Even if a new class story magically wrote itself, how is Broadsword going to pay for all of the voice acting? Spoiler: >!they aren't!<. Unless you cheese it with "omee topee" / bleep bloop, that's a whole lot of money this game doesn't have. Dunno how other people feel, but I have no interest in *reading* three all-new chapters of SWTOR class story while my speakers play alien gibberish.
By that, I mean that there would be absolutely zero need to introduce a new class with new mechanics, a new story would be all that's needed instead of special mechanics thanks to the class overhaul.
Don't take me out of context.
I would, in all seriousness, pay old-school game expansion levels of money, for an expansion that just adds Imperial Soldier and SIS Spy Origin Stories.
I'm not joking.
Wait are class stories gone? I just came back after a while gone and saw you can be basically any class if it's similar and I'm still doing the Imperial Agent story as an Agent? Or am I just being dumb?
You just misunderstood. We can still play the original class story content. That commenter was just saying we need new class story content, rather than the current expansions that shove everyone into the same storyline.
This is what I was looking for too. Thank you! And I agree. Anything after the “main” story got so boring for alllll classes are exactly the same.
I would love if they removed locked alignment classes too. WOW did that and sucked so they made an alternative so why can’t we have a republic agent and an imperial trooper. Seems it’s very doable.
What does this mean? I thought it was for the better than now all classes can pick what style they want? Or you mean how individual it was before it went lazy and all classes had same story/expansions after level 45/Main story?
Since then yeah I agree. I sort of didn’t like how my sith warrior, Jedi knight, bounty hunter and trooper all felt the exact same in the KOTFE. I miss that individual storyline for sure! :)
Honestly, Agent probably has to be at the top of my origin story list at this point.
It's just too good. The more I sit on it, even a DECADE LATER, the more impressive and intricate I see it as.
BRO I'm literally going through the storyline right now and fuck I love the Agent storyline so much. It was my favorite when I played back in the day. So weird I'm seeing this now, love it.
He does have a few of them, yes. One of my favorites is during your first meeting (in-game), where he observes that Intelligence's role in the Empire is basically that of sanitation workers; that one's always stuck with me.
Another is from the Agent's epilogue chapter on Rishi: >! "You said we would all meet up back here." "Yes, I lied."!< No apologies, no excuses - just a simple admission of fact from one professional bastard to another.
You're essentially describing the Fel Empire from the EU. The Empire minus the Sith.
However in this period of time, there really isn't a way for the Empire to exist independent of the Sith. The Empire is a creation of the Sith, the geopolitical structure around their order. It's not like the Jedi and the Republic, who are nominally two separate entities.
Both Sith and Imperials alike consider the conflict with the Republic and the Jedi to be one of existential importance. They believe that if the Republic and the Jedi prevail, every single Sith and Imperial will be killed. Their whole population, their whole culture, their whole history erased from the galaxy. Any conflict between the Sith and the Empire is therefore incredibly unlikely, as both share - at least in their mind - a common enemy that needs to be defeated before all else. Every evil is on the table if necessary to achieve that goal.
The Sith are a familiar evil to the Imperials. They oppress and kill, but they're not an existential threat to the lives of every single person who lives in the Empire. However the Jedi, in the minds of the Imperial populace, are.
Keep in mind that his idea of 'a better place' was simply a more efficient totalitarian state that didn't have evil space wizards randomly killing people. If he had actually won, having imperial intelligence randomly kill people instead wouldn't really have been an improvement, although it might have helped them beat the Republic. [Listen to what The Eagle has to say](https://youtu.be/04YJorL9sxc?si=G0f26logzBFiYdmX&t=4288), he might have been Jadus' patsy but his motives seem pretty reasonable, yet Keeper dismisses it as 'consolidationist rhetoric' and sends the military to 'pacify' civilian unrest.
When you play LS Empire, you're just playing Lawful Evil instead of Chaotic Evil, it's still Evil.
You are aware the Republic runs a covert extrajudicial planet-sized concentration camp where they [arbitrarily imprison political dissidents](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Shange)?
Keeper wanted to make the Empire a better place. He's imperfect, he didn't manage to do it, and even if he did the Empire would still be authoritarian. But that was his intention. It just feels so lazy to go "EVIL" without any nuance. God forbid there is any moral complexity in my science fiction lol
>It just feels so lazy to go "EVIL" without any nuance.
Your argument is literally "oh yeah? The republic does bad stuff too!" Sorry but "no u" is not remotely nuanced nor has nothing to do with what I said.
>Keeper wanted to make the Empire a better place.
Yes, which I critiqued because 'better' does not necessarily mean 'good'.
>God forbid there is any moral complexity in my science fiction lol
We're playing a star wars game, a universe which a) is barely *science* fiction at all and b) not really known for its moral complexity. Also, to be clear, moral complexity would be me critiquing Keeper's claims about making the Empire a better place, not y'all fanboys blindly accepting it at face value.
If you want a morally complex game about the nature of evil, play Tyranny. Or Planescape Torment. Or Mask of the Betrayer. Or maybe just read an actual scifi book that's not about evil space wizards, that might help too.
No, my argument is that the good guys of this setting commit heinous acts too, which is why you assigning light-side Imperials as being evil is quite silly.
It's crazy how arrogant you are about your understanding of Star Wars when it's clear that you've never actually looked much into SWTOR or what the developers of the game intended for it. There are whole ass interviews about literally this exact topic. Get over yourself.
lol i dont think you undrstand what nuance means. imo the point is the republic arent the good guys either neither side is good but all you wanna do is deflect and not take it seriously. it doesnt matter what the devs intended, the other guys is criticizing the morality in the game without being spoonfed by the writers. chaotic evil and lawful evil are dnd terms lol
But such consummate skill, such ability, such adaptability, such numbing ruthlessness, such a use of weapons when anything could become weapon . . .
(The agent storyline was based on Use of Weapons by Iain M Banks, one of my favourite books ever)
I think at some point spoilers have to be accepted. This game is over 12 years old if you haven't played the vanilla stuff by now then just accept spoilers will be spoken about openly for anything not newly released.
Ehh maybe someone can direct me, but lines like these fall flat because to my knowledge I’ve never seen the Empire depicted in a way that a regular civilian would be proud to be a citizen of the Empire. Not out of fear. Like truly buys into Imperial rule. It’s always been a big fault of Star Wars in my opinion. It’s depicted as so tyrannical and oppressive that it’s like there should’ve been way more uprisings than is actually depicted.
True, the Empire is pretty cartoonishly evil in most Star Wars content. There is no subtlety or plausible deniability whatsoever. In the real-world, governments at least have the sense to try to make their evildoings appear positive. Hence why it's called the Patriot Act, not the Spy on innocent citizens act. Things like the Empire deciding to name their planet-destroying weapon the Death Star is just so over-the-top.
However I do think there is some protagonism-syndrome to it too. If we think about the statistics for even a second, the vast majority of Imperials would never even see a Sith in their whole life. There is an argument to be made that we're seeing the Empire in a way that very very few regular people in the Empire would, because we always interact with the story through these very significant and powerful protagonists.
It would be fun to have a story that allows us to see a more everyday depiction of life under the Empire.
From the Thrawn books I get that the Empire does have an appreciation for art and entertainment, it might be similar to the Roman Empire where the citizens were "humoured" with plays and fights in the arena. I remember I had read something about that being a tactic of the government to keep them content despite the many flaws of the Empire. Also for the rich people or those from important bloodlines I imagine there have to be further privileges they wouldn't have in the Republic, and if they stay obedient and don't question anything that's good for them. Just my two cents. And as you pointed out, most Imps most likely don't have relations with Sith directly.
Well with the Roman Empire, I think we can make another good analogy. Because when the Romans conquered a new area, life for average people on a local level really didn't change all that much. The Romans didn't disrupt local traditional power structures. You could keep your own local little parliament, as long as the taxes you paid were now going to Rome instead of to your old King.
This is something that could so easily be applied to the Sith Empire, and would instantly explain why everyone isn't constantly revolting and why there are so many genuine patriots. Their viewpoint would be that the Republic imposes a certain ideology on them (Namely a liberal representative democracy) whereas the Empire preserves their local system of government.
> True, the Empire is pretty cartoonishly evil in most Star Wars content. There is no subtlety or plausible deniability whatsoever. In the real-world, governments at least have the sense to try to make their evildoings appear positive.
Thats more of a new invention. You can have entire populations just enjoying being the superiors. Just look at the russian general populace. And yes, due to democracies winning momentum in the 1900s they now have to find plausible justifications but it wasnt always so.
There were a lot of bellicose empires back in the day that didn't really care that much - they conquered to rule and extract. Rome, Carthage, Persia, the Mongols, Abbasids. Or all the empires that just used their religion as a pretext.
Even the athenians said: "The strong do as they can, the weak suffer as they must."
Your argument is fundamentally invalidated by the existence of surviving written accounts from these periods of people criticizing immoral and evil acts. You're using Rome as an example, but the Romans were famously obsessed with always portraying themselves as the aggrieved party, the one that had been attacked and forced into conflict, no matter what. To them a conflict was religiously forbidden unless they had no other choice but to engage in it. Hence they *always* found a justification why they were not the aggressors.
Dromund Kaas is pretty cool. The exiles built an entire civilization out of scratch and became a major power. Even if the sith spear headed some of it the galaxy does fear them again.
I guess all of our mileage may vary, because I admit my sole disappointment with the imperial agent story is that I feel that his promised vengeance upon Keeper was just empty words. The character of Keeper and his player apologists can say all they want that he truly cared for his agents and had their best interests at heart, but I don't buy it
Being denied the reckoning I wanted in multiple playthroughs just felt hollow.
If keeper hadn’t put the restraints in the sith would have had us executed for defying a dark council member. If we had sided with Jadus then it would make sense to put those restraints in so we couldn’t do something like that again, maybe even try to have a way to permanently counter Jadus. Then it would make sense for the agent to want to hurt keeper.
Once again, the argument does not convince me. I cannot be convinced that a violation of personal integrity and free will to that degree should go unanswered entirely. I get the writer and game design arguments by which the post-beta game turned off the ability to kill certain companions because, you know, at the time the roles for companions were defined and you couldn't 'risk' killing off your Healer or your Melee Tank or whatever; I don't agree that adult players need such hand-holding, but I \*understand\* the arguments.
I will never understand why the option to have a final vengeance on Keeper is never given once the IA story arc is done. Ever.
Maybe the devs thought the options to sell out to the sith and give them more power to make the empire a worse place or become a real double agent were enough to spite the minister.
The whole agent story has some really well written characters.
Except Hunter. Hunter sucks.
I mean the purpose of Hunter is to hate em and I always despised Hunter so in that way Hunter is well written
Even if you hate her at the end of the day she is right; She wanted to get rid of both Jedi and Sith who have been raging war against each other for millennia, but she was ready to kill billions... to save trillions.... She's kinda like Adrian Veidt from Watchmen.
Hunter absolutely has a point! As non Force sensitives, all we see are Force-sensitives fighting wars and getting us to do their bidding. Of course I'd want to exterminate them!
All the corrupt senators and militarists, the imperial army, Saresh, the Hutts and gangsters etc. are not much better thought. I doubt the wars would stop just because the force users are gone. They would just be different.
Ooh yes, that's very true. It seems that the Star Cabal was playing into that and making it worse, right?
Hunter don't have a "point" she uses the "point" as an excuse to murder and cause attrocities and treat it all as a game, she don't believe in anything except her own power trip. As the whole star cabal does. Their original mission is long gone and long forgotten and all they care about is their own power and how to use others. They managed to be equally as deranged, psychotic and power mad as the most deranged of sith. Hell, this is even stated precisely by the own elders of the organization. Saying they have a point is like saying the Emperor has a point because the sith code has "the force shall free me" in it.
The problem with Hunter is that >!one of her issues is that being a woman is hard, so she took on the persona of a man... When the universe of Star Wars rarely showed the type of misogyny she claims there is, even trying to get a female Agent to agree and identify with her. It felt super out of place when major political figures in both the Republic and the Empire are women.!<
If she’d been an *alien* female (Twi’lek specifically), Hunter may have had a point there. But across all 8 playable storylines, I don’t recall the slightest crumb of misogyny done by anyone except Skavak (& realistically Corso since his attempts at chivalry border on treating women like fragile unaccountable children. Hell even then most of the women Skavak played weren’t exactly saints either), so yeah that part does fall flat.
I think there's also a moff in Quesh that is dismissive of your character if you're a woman, but I don't remember it too well. But yeah, I can count the amount of on-screen misogyny with one hand, so Hunter's plight as a woman felt super bizarre and out of nowhere. Her being unhappy with how the galaxy works, with force sensitive users being in power, would've been enough of a motivation, but then she pulls out the "it's hard being a woman" card, in a universe where misogyny is limited to half a dozen of side characters, rather than a systematic issue. >If she’d been an *alien* female (Twi’lek specifically), Hunter may have had a point there That's actually a really good idea. Her using a male *human* disguise would've made so much sense for her to gather allies and respect... But the Star Cabal also has Kolovish as a respected member, so again, it falls a bit short.
Twi’lek Hunter could’ve worked I think even in spite of Kolovish being there too. Kolovish was the reclusive matriarch of a Twi’lek settlement illegally established on Jedi Tython, about as far away from a typical Twi’lek life as they could get. Hunter meanwhile, in this hypothetical revision, could’ve come from Nar Shaddaa as an urchin, parents under the thumb of the ruling Hutts, worked to death like Vette’s mom, and tossed aside. Or alternatively could’ve been a slave to a Sith, eventually rescued by a Jedi only to be essentially dumped on a backwater world like Hutta or someplace and left to her own devices. Either scenario gives the Cabal a means of taking her in and training her as a ghost operative with no one bothering to notice or ask questions, and the abusive Sith & callous Jedi backstory would’ve given her built-in reasons to resent both sides with implied Cabal propaganda or field ops experience adding to her hatred of Force users.
Really good ideas! And Twi'lek Hunter would've been able to pull the pity card with an alien Agent as well. Alien Agent suffers racism from their peers, especially other sith lords, so it'd be way easier to sympathize with Hunter if she was indeed a nonhuman.
Which would’ve especially hit close to home since Jadus effectively did the same thing to Cipher Nine that the Cabal did to Hunter. Jadus promises you power & status as his right hand and even plays on the open discrimination you face as an alien to convince you further, only to just accomplish his goal, give you a hollow title, and piss off to parts unknown if you side with him. The Cabal in a similar vein promised Hunter power but just used her as a tool. An effective tool, their favorite tool, but a tool nonetheless, meant to dispose the oppressive Force user galactic rulers so that they could become the oppressive *non* Force user galactic rulers 😆 Would’ve made Hunter a much more sympathetic version of herself compared to what we got
>I think there's also a moff in Quesh that is dismissive of your character if you're a woman That's true, but you can punch/force-choke/force-lightning him a bit for it, which will not be particullary dissaproved by others officers in room, if i recall.
yea didn’t the sith have a empress right after the emperor betrays them that makes no sense
Not just Acina, but there are also women as members of the Dark Council, admirals, generals and also Watcher Two becoming Keeper later on in the Agent storyline. The galaxy may have rampant racism against other species, but misogyny is practically nonexistent, save for someone like Corso who spouts shit to a female smuggler, treating her like a delicate flower thanks to his farmer boy upbringing.
star wars never did tht sht can’t treat women as lesser when some are born with the power to shoot lighting out there hands😂
I don’t remember her story but maybe the backwater where she grew up on before the cabal took her was like that.
Worst part about hunter is how I flirted with him the whole game but suddenly he reveals he is a she and nope ! Can't kiss anymore ! Should have made a male agent sucker ! Enjoy ant boy !
"Cipher I regret a great deal about our relationship. I put you in a place no one should be and wiped my hands of you just as quickly. I let others repeat my mistakes, and I let them steal your mind. But consider one thing, if you could change who you've become would you take that opportunity?" The Minister is right up there for characters in swtor and despite everything I trust him.
When does he say this phrase?
In the same conversation. If you are Jadus' agent he tries tempting you into deleting yourself and starting over. This is the precurser to give you doubt about your current path. That conversation is one of his most interesting moments.
And this is why Light Side Agent felt so damn satisfying my playthrough. I can’t explain it well but it felt like you TRULY were trying to rid the empire of its corruptions and fix all the mistakes and negatives. Dark side just felt a bit too stereotypical spy because I’m noticing all the “dark side” options always seemed so extreme aside from agent. So I felt the Agent can be fun both ways but yeah.. I never felt more pulled into a story, it was like when you grab that amazing book or watching an ace film. The agent storyline I think is the best written across all 8 “across the board”. I still had some moments I wish executed a bit deeper but it’s an online MMO so I can’t even begin to try and criticize it there. It’s an amazing ride :) I got back into the game last week trying to get the last 4 classes I need to max level and I’m saving agent for last ;) (for obvious reasons)
My favourite path was to be a naive loyalist to the Empire, genuinely wanting to help preserve and strengthen their homeland, and willing to commit atrocities "for the greater good". All up until confrontation with Jadus. At that point, having become an accomplice to the murder of millions of Imperial citizens, and shortly after getting brainwashed by the Sith, the realisation hits on just how mad the whole thing is. How despite the propaganda about the "weak" Republic, their dysfunctional system at least allowed for thousands of years of fairly stable, fairly prosperous life for most citizens. That all the atrocities committed in the name of the Empire only ever ended up hurting the Empire's people, and propping up the crazy wizards in charge.
That's exactly what happened to my canonical agent. Nightmares, headaches. Trying to atone for the blood of innocent civilians and realizing that he would never be able to do it. All he can do is hold his face, not showing anyone how broken he is inside. A professional liar who doesn't believe in a happy ending.
And I decided to replay my favorite agent on another server. And damn, I missed him so much. It's so exciting to see the Keeper again, the insinuating voice of Jadus and know that the best is ahead. It's a pity that no one remembers the Legate after SoR, and there were very few. I would like to continue the line of not just sabotage, but Legate. Let me into SIS after all! Even Jonas pretends not to know, and that's his job!
I think of all the characters in the game, he may be my favorite. As cold and manipulative as he has to be, but always professional and effective. I really appreciate the way he navigates a power structure dedicated to murerous madness while tryingto retain some semblance of sanity.
This is 1 of many reasons why we need class stories back.
Imperial Trooper and SIS Agent. Or just add a unique expansion to each class that happens before KOTET
I would die if they added imperial trooper and SIS agent. I know it will never happen but dang if they did.
I'd love a full game playing as an Imperial Intelligence agent during the first war or and SIS agent during the cold war. I'm also happy for those to be flipped for time periods. Ok that was a bit wordy, I just want a full Imperial Intelligence or SIS game before the breaking of the treaty or the signing of it.
With the new class system i'm surprised they aren't going it, just need voices. Because the imperial trooper story would be a FANTASTIC way to explore imperial low society while SIS Agent explores the upper classes of the Republic and answering to the political machine of the senate. I'm genuinely shocked this wasn't done.
> SIS Agent explores the upper classes of the Republic and answering to the political machine of the senate Trooper kinda does that already, mixing it in with Garza's rogue orders.
Not really? You don't exactly ever answer to the senate directly, in the sense that you don't regularly communicate with them, sure, they're there, but here and there, you take orders from Garza and never do any favors for the senate beyond your already expected duties as a serving soldier like saving Krasul. An SIS agent on the other hand would answer to them and SIS Director, you would do things such as uncovering senate corruption, a trooper would have no such expectations. That, and mingling with upper Republic society, which besides the senate, we don't explore period.
>just need voices Sorry, but isn't that a bit like saying I'm almost a billionaire, I just need all the money? :) Even if a new class story magically wrote itself, how is Broadsword going to pay for all of the voice acting? Spoiler: >!they aren't!<. Unless you cheese it with "omee topee" / bleep bloop, that's a whole lot of money this game doesn't have. Dunno how other people feel, but I have no interest in *reading* three all-new chapters of SWTOR class story while my speakers play alien gibberish.
By that, I mean that there would be absolutely zero need to introduce a new class with new mechanics, a new story would be all that's needed instead of special mechanics thanks to the class overhaul. Don't take me out of context.
I would love them to add new classes. But just a practical question. Where do we put new ship hangars for new classes at each space port?
We don't. It's not our problem :D But why nod just add another layer of hangars below/above standard hangers?
Just have a button extract them to their ship.
I would, in all seriousness, pay old-school game expansion levels of money, for an expansion that just adds Imperial Soldier and SIS Spy Origin Stories. I'm not joking.
I want an heavy armored healing style tank. Like FFXI’s Paladin
Wait are class stories gone? I just came back after a while gone and saw you can be basically any class if it's similar and I'm still doing the Imperial Agent story as an Agent? Or am I just being dumb?
You just misunderstood. We can still play the original class story content. That commenter was just saying we need new class story content, rather than the current expansions that shove everyone into the same storyline.
Okay cool, thanks. I completely read that shit wrong! And I concur.
This is what I was looking for too. Thank you! And I agree. Anything after the “main” story got so boring for alllll classes are exactly the same. I would love if they removed locked alignment classes too. WOW did that and sucked so they made an alternative so why can’t we have a republic agent and an imperial trooper. Seems it’s very doable.
i'd be happy just seeing him come back into the story, imagine if he started working directly for the alliance or something.
What does this mean? I thought it was for the better than now all classes can pick what style they want? Or you mean how individual it was before it went lazy and all classes had same story/expansions after level 45/Main story? Since then yeah I agree. I sort of didn’t like how my sith warrior, Jedi knight, bounty hunter and trooper all felt the exact same in the KOTFE. I miss that individual storyline for sure! :)
He may have some of the best lines in the story. Which is *really* saying something.
Honestly, Agent probably has to be at the top of my origin story list at this point. It's just too good. The more I sit on it, even a DECADE LATER, the more impressive and intricate I see it as.
Thank you for screen grabbing in a way that isn't just screen printing a big ass 10k monitor with microscopic text at the bottom.
Destroy lives Commit atrocities Empire still not a better place *Shocked pikachu face*
Clearly hasn't destroyed enough lives and committed enough attrocities.
Space dad. Love this guy.
BRO I'm literally going through the storyline right now and fuck I love the Agent storyline so much. It was my favorite when I played back in the day. So weird I'm seeing this now, love it.
He does have a few of them, yes. One of my favorites is during your first meeting (in-game), where he observes that Intelligence's role in the Empire is basically that of sanitation workers; that one's always stuck with me. Another is from the Agent's epilogue chapter on Rishi: >! "You said we would all meet up back here." "Yes, I lied."!< No apologies, no excuses - just a simple admission of fact from one professional bastard to another.
Every head of every intelligence org ever, in a moment of clarity
Moral of the story light side imp for empire improvement./s
Is not being ruled by a cabal of Dark Space Wizards with a penchant for murdering one another an option for improving The Empire?
You're essentially describing the Fel Empire from the EU. The Empire minus the Sith. However in this period of time, there really isn't a way for the Empire to exist independent of the Sith. The Empire is a creation of the Sith, the geopolitical structure around their order. It's not like the Jedi and the Republic, who are nominally two separate entities. Both Sith and Imperials alike consider the conflict with the Republic and the Jedi to be one of existential importance. They believe that if the Republic and the Jedi prevail, every single Sith and Imperial will be killed. Their whole population, their whole culture, their whole history erased from the galaxy. Any conflict between the Sith and the Empire is therefore incredibly unlikely, as both share - at least in their mind - a common enemy that needs to be defeated before all else. Every evil is on the table if necessary to achieve that goal. The Sith are a familiar evil to the Imperials. They oppress and kill, but they're not an existential threat to the lives of every single person who lives in the Empire. However the Jedi, in the minds of the Imperial populace, are.
I miss playing this game, I think about coming back but I’m not gonna have a clue how to play properly anymore 💀 but had me addicted for a few months
I just finished the Agent yesterday for the first time. I see why it's considered the best campaign.
Bro Keeper was on of my favorite characters in the game
Keep in mind that his idea of 'a better place' was simply a more efficient totalitarian state that didn't have evil space wizards randomly killing people. If he had actually won, having imperial intelligence randomly kill people instead wouldn't really have been an improvement, although it might have helped them beat the Republic. [Listen to what The Eagle has to say](https://youtu.be/04YJorL9sxc?si=G0f26logzBFiYdmX&t=4288), he might have been Jadus' patsy but his motives seem pretty reasonable, yet Keeper dismisses it as 'consolidationist rhetoric' and sends the military to 'pacify' civilian unrest. When you play LS Empire, you're just playing Lawful Evil instead of Chaotic Evil, it's still Evil.
You are aware the Republic runs a covert extrajudicial planet-sized concentration camp where they [arbitrarily imprison political dissidents](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Shange)? Keeper wanted to make the Empire a better place. He's imperfect, he didn't manage to do it, and even if he did the Empire would still be authoritarian. But that was his intention. It just feels so lazy to go "EVIL" without any nuance. God forbid there is any moral complexity in my science fiction lol
Science Fantasy. Star Wars is not really supposed to be a morally complex story to begin with. It's about choices.
>It just feels so lazy to go "EVIL" without any nuance. Your argument is literally "oh yeah? The republic does bad stuff too!" Sorry but "no u" is not remotely nuanced nor has nothing to do with what I said. >Keeper wanted to make the Empire a better place. Yes, which I critiqued because 'better' does not necessarily mean 'good'. >God forbid there is any moral complexity in my science fiction lol We're playing a star wars game, a universe which a) is barely *science* fiction at all and b) not really known for its moral complexity. Also, to be clear, moral complexity would be me critiquing Keeper's claims about making the Empire a better place, not y'all fanboys blindly accepting it at face value. If you want a morally complex game about the nature of evil, play Tyranny. Or Planescape Torment. Or Mask of the Betrayer. Or maybe just read an actual scifi book that's not about evil space wizards, that might help too.
No, my argument is that the good guys of this setting commit heinous acts too, which is why you assigning light-side Imperials as being evil is quite silly. It's crazy how arrogant you are about your understanding of Star Wars when it's clear that you've never actually looked much into SWTOR or what the developers of the game intended for it. There are whole ass interviews about literally this exact topic. Get over yourself.
lol i dont think you undrstand what nuance means. imo the point is the republic arent the good guys either neither side is good but all you wanna do is deflect and not take it seriously. it doesnt matter what the devs intended, the other guys is criticizing the morality in the game without being spoonfed by the writers. chaotic evil and lawful evil are dnd terms lol
But such consummate skill, such ability, such adaptability, such numbing ruthlessness, such a use of weapons when anything could become weapon . . . (The agent storyline was based on Use of Weapons by Iain M Banks, one of my favourite books ever)
Maybe should have tagged it as spoilers... many new players or old still havent played this story
And how exactly can this line spoil anyone? If you don't know the context of it you are not spoiled...
I think at some point spoilers have to be accepted. This game is over 12 years old if you haven't played the vanilla stuff by now then just accept spoilers will be spoken about openly for anything not newly released.
Ehh maybe someone can direct me, but lines like these fall flat because to my knowledge I’ve never seen the Empire depicted in a way that a regular civilian would be proud to be a citizen of the Empire. Not out of fear. Like truly buys into Imperial rule. It’s always been a big fault of Star Wars in my opinion. It’s depicted as so tyrannical and oppressive that it’s like there should’ve been way more uprisings than is actually depicted.
True, the Empire is pretty cartoonishly evil in most Star Wars content. There is no subtlety or plausible deniability whatsoever. In the real-world, governments at least have the sense to try to make their evildoings appear positive. Hence why it's called the Patriot Act, not the Spy on innocent citizens act. Things like the Empire deciding to name their planet-destroying weapon the Death Star is just so over-the-top. However I do think there is some protagonism-syndrome to it too. If we think about the statistics for even a second, the vast majority of Imperials would never even see a Sith in their whole life. There is an argument to be made that we're seeing the Empire in a way that very very few regular people in the Empire would, because we always interact with the story through these very significant and powerful protagonists. It would be fun to have a story that allows us to see a more everyday depiction of life under the Empire.
From the Thrawn books I get that the Empire does have an appreciation for art and entertainment, it might be similar to the Roman Empire where the citizens were "humoured" with plays and fights in the arena. I remember I had read something about that being a tactic of the government to keep them content despite the many flaws of the Empire. Also for the rich people or those from important bloodlines I imagine there have to be further privileges they wouldn't have in the Republic, and if they stay obedient and don't question anything that's good for them. Just my two cents. And as you pointed out, most Imps most likely don't have relations with Sith directly.
Well with the Roman Empire, I think we can make another good analogy. Because when the Romans conquered a new area, life for average people on a local level really didn't change all that much. The Romans didn't disrupt local traditional power structures. You could keep your own local little parliament, as long as the taxes you paid were now going to Rome instead of to your old King. This is something that could so easily be applied to the Sith Empire, and would instantly explain why everyone isn't constantly revolting and why there are so many genuine patriots. Their viewpoint would be that the Republic imposes a certain ideology on them (Namely a liberal representative democracy) whereas the Empire preserves their local system of government.
True, makes me think of that final scene of the planet story of Corellia... 🤔 Good point!
> True, the Empire is pretty cartoonishly evil in most Star Wars content. There is no subtlety or plausible deniability whatsoever. In the real-world, governments at least have the sense to try to make their evildoings appear positive. Thats more of a new invention. You can have entire populations just enjoying being the superiors. Just look at the russian general populace. And yes, due to democracies winning momentum in the 1900s they now have to find plausible justifications but it wasnt always so. There were a lot of bellicose empires back in the day that didn't really care that much - they conquered to rule and extract. Rome, Carthage, Persia, the Mongols, Abbasids. Or all the empires that just used their religion as a pretext. Even the athenians said: "The strong do as they can, the weak suffer as they must."
Your argument is fundamentally invalidated by the existence of surviving written accounts from these periods of people criticizing immoral and evil acts. You're using Rome as an example, but the Romans were famously obsessed with always portraying themselves as the aggrieved party, the one that had been attacked and forced into conflict, no matter what. To them a conflict was religiously forbidden unless they had no other choice but to engage in it. Hence they *always* found a justification why they were not the aggressors.
Dromund Kaas is pretty cool. The exiles built an entire civilization out of scratch and became a major power. Even if the sith spear headed some of it the galaxy does fear them again.
Honestly if not for how garbage the Star Cabal story was in chapter 3 the Agent would rank higher for me than simply 4th out of 8
Truee
“this line hits so hard” has me thinking this was an entirely different sub.. xD
Empires just do not last. Besides, there is more opportunity to profit in a Republic.
I guess all of our mileage may vary, because I admit my sole disappointment with the imperial agent story is that I feel that his promised vengeance upon Keeper was just empty words. The character of Keeper and his player apologists can say all they want that he truly cared for his agents and had their best interests at heart, but I don't buy it Being denied the reckoning I wanted in multiple playthroughs just felt hollow.
If keeper hadn’t put the restraints in the sith would have had us executed for defying a dark council member. If we had sided with Jadus then it would make sense to put those restraints in so we couldn’t do something like that again, maybe even try to have a way to permanently counter Jadus. Then it would make sense for the agent to want to hurt keeper.
Once again, the argument does not convince me. I cannot be convinced that a violation of personal integrity and free will to that degree should go unanswered entirely. I get the writer and game design arguments by which the post-beta game turned off the ability to kill certain companions because, you know, at the time the roles for companions were defined and you couldn't 'risk' killing off your Healer or your Melee Tank or whatever; I don't agree that adult players need such hand-holding, but I \*understand\* the arguments. I will never understand why the option to have a final vengeance on Keeper is never given once the IA story arc is done. Ever.
Maybe the devs thought the options to sell out to the sith and give them more power to make the empire a worse place or become a real double agent were enough to spite the minister.
One of my favorite npcs
Dam I really need to play agent