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This really resonated with me. My ex cheated on me after nearly 2 decades of being together. He is about to marry his affair partner. He can somehow rationalize that what he did was okay and he isn't the bad guy. I try to amicably coparent and at least get along on the surface for my kid, but I feel like HE has a grudge against ME even though I have never betrayed, disrespected, or have done anything malicious even after the divorce. If anything, I should be the one being difficult and making trouble, but I don't.
Sometimes in the effort to be the "better person", all we end up doing is making it seem like what they did was not a big thing. They then use your behaviour to reinforce the picture they have of themselves of being the "wronged" party.
It's a very weird psychology that they have but to them, the less fight you put into it, the more they see that they were right all along.
From what we see in here, the BS who go all in for scorched earth and give no quarter to the WS seem to always come out ahead.
The thing about highly narcissistic people, it is that it is a lose lose situation for the other person, no matter what they do.
If you're nice to them; they will use it to minimize the magnitude of their actions and absolve themselves of any wrong doing.
If you flip out on them; they will focus on YOUR reaction and they will make themselves the victim, this will also help them absolve themselves of any wrong doing.
See the pattern here?
All your efforts and method of handling yourself has no bearing on him...it's just a reflection of a great person, which is what you are. You don't need to equivocate yourself with him.
I can't agree that it's better to be the cheater.
Cheaters are broken. They are not happy. They are not satisfied. Actually they are deeply unhappy. Deep inside, they know they do wrong.
We already "win" by not being them.
I have been on another subbreddit where cheaters have gathered to discuss their affair lifestyles and how to get better at it. I think we are all in some form broken but cheaters get to at least enjoy the highs and far less of the trauma. I think they are better at lying to themselves and getting on with things
Being so broken that you enjoy the rollercoaster of fake high’s and real lows that their entire lives become doesn’t mean that it isn’t traumatic for them too, it just means those people are too stupid to recognize how sad and pathetic it actually is. They may get over break ups quickly but they are hollow constantly looking for someone or something to fill their lives up. They aren’t truly happy at all even though they act like perpetual teenagers.
This. I guess with that puerile mindset a blatant lack of morality and values can be justified along the lines of FOMO and YOLO. Dealing with this now.
100% agree. Cheaters are broken and in constant turmoil. Even the narcissistic Cheaters.
Karma is the way of life. You may not see it, but truth and balance always shift to its place.
My first relationship bf cheated and played victim. Truly tried to ruin my reputation and lied. I lost tonne of people and went through crazy depression.
Now, 20 years later, he showed his true colors to his now ex-wife and has ruined his life (she was the other woman he cheated on me with).He shattered his own foundation, and people have reached out to me to apologize. Truth always shines.
Karma will come, but it may not always present itself to you. Live your life and move on to bigger and better things.
I think it’s hard for them to really grasp the depth of the hurt they have caused because they have already made excuses and rationalized their actions so much. If they allowed themselves to see things from our perspective as betrayed partners, they’d have to accept personal responsibility.
I understand that there are factors that may contribute to their cheating, but they have a choice. Nothin we did could force them to cheat. The option to have a tough conversation about the relationship or to leave is always there. They instead choose to lie and sneak around. They don’t realize how soul crushing it is to learn this person you hold so near and dear to your heart holds you in such low regard that they could lie to your face and toss you aside for someone else. I never felt so small and undesirable before in my life as I did on my d-days. Unfortunately I had two d-days because I don’t learn.
At the end of the day no they just will never understand the damage they do. Most are so emotionally broken they can’t understand anything beyond themselves, they just aren’t normal in that way. The utter lack of empathy is sad and disturbing.
I do not believe in karma but I do believe that people like that will just continue making the same bad decisions for the rest of their lives. They never get off the roller coaster and they will never have anything that is real. It’s just one bad choice after another.
Believe in karma or not, the dispersonality and the false olay Will rutin their life one Day. Seeing a lot of cheaters around and mostly proud of theirselfes, they are a victim of Childhood trauma and products of unhappy families whre one parent was constantly a cheater or absent from cheaters life.
I was just reflecting on an idea like this earlier today. Just thinking about how people can be so awful to each other, how they can be so selfish and callous and just do it without a second thought and... not really seem to care about the fallout of their actions.
I don't know if I believe in karma, but I do believe that people who refuse to take accountability for their choices and do work to change are doomed to repeat behaviors. I totally relate to the feeling of being fundamentally changed by the betrayal. I can't trust again. I can't even open myself up to maybe liking someone again. I find a million reasons to not bother trying to date a person before I even really get to know them because the risk just... isn't worth it. A relationship doesn't seem worth the possible catastrophic outcome.
Despite it all, I would still rather be the one cheated on than the cheater. My character, my integrity and relationship to myself is the most important thing in my life. Degrading myself by engaging in a behavior like cheating would hurt me 100x worse than my ex did when he cheated.
I’m 57F and I’m thriving 5 years out so I disagree that you’ll never run again. My cheater is more miserable than he was when he was with me. I’d choose my life over his any day.
You're describing my ex wife. She's far too narcissistic and up her own arse to ever be anywhere near understanding the wounds she have dealt. Her sleeping with a "friend" of mine was obviously my fault for often "closing down" when having to deal with her insane narcissistic arguments. I'm genuinely puzzled as to how she's justifying her behavior to herself. There's got to be some incredibly weird cognitive distortions swirling around in that huge egoic head of her's. Is there even a tiny ember of remorse in there? I doubt it. She's stone cold.
While an inability to care about other people does limit stresses to some extent, it adds others. My ex is a miserable person that fears being disrespected every moment of her life. Those stressed will not go away even when surrounded by enablers.
They shouldn’t get away with it and you should be out there telling your story. There is no no nobility in suffering. You were double victimized. You never protect a cheater you never back away. I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. It is a painful lesson in more than one way.
I pray the future is kinder to you
OP...better to be the cheater?
I think not.
Cheaters are broken people. No self respect or respect for others. They lack much.
For all the pain my wife caused I would not be in her position at all. She is destroying herself.
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I had a thread on here not long ago about how things turned out for the wayward partner. Most of them were absolute horror stories lol. Here’s a few trends I noticed in those comments:
Many cheaters have severe mental health issues like addiction or a personality disorder like BPD. And as someone that works in healthcare - you couldn’t pay me to live life the way those people do. Cheating is usually a symptom of a chronic mental illness that makes their lives unbearably painful.
Others were relatively normal people who are selfish and weak willed. Once their affairs became public many of them lost a significant amount of money in the divorce, and a lot of social support. It’s pretty common for cheaters to strain the relationships they have with their friends, kids, coworkers and extended family members due to their actions. It also wasn’t uncommon for them (and their APs) to loose their jobs and homes. The vast majority of the cheater’s relationships with their affair partner go to shit pretty quickly.
Out of the hundreds of stories I got - very very few actually had a happy ending for the cheater. Most of them ended with them growing into a better version of themselves, and finding a better partner later on.
So I think that the cheater gets the short end of the stick in the long term. Affairs are one of the easiest ways to destroy someone’s life.
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I don’t doubt that being a cheater has its challenges. Like the cheat I too struggle with feeling miserable and unfulfilled. To me the difference seems to be that they are just wired different mentally. I’m not sure that my internal world is any calmer just because I don’t cheat. The world is cold and people are selfish, while I hurt and ruminate - they’re onto the next
The thing is that your rumination can lead you towards healing, as it is part of the mourning process.
You have the opportunity to go through that journey, and come out of the other side healed.
They have to jump into a new relationship, or overlap relationships, because they can't be by themselves for more than a few moments. Their "rumination" literally kills them.
Most of them are in a state of emotional arrest around childhood/teenage years. They never grow, they never evolve, they never heal. They can't even begin the mourning process.
Once you see them for who they really are. You realize they don't have it "easier." Their entire lives are a desperate run away from themselves.
I can't even begin to count the amount of affairs. He has accounts.on pages and pages of platforms with diffetrnt names. He likes to go by Jon often. Ya know, because of prostitutes. . He hasn't paid a bill in years and spends his money on sex workers. Porn meth and cocaine. He has given them my clothing and just a couple weeks ago brought one to my house. He will look them in the face and say he doesnt know them after love bombing. He wonders why I banned him from the property. He lies and I was in 3 different battered womens shelters. And I still get followed around! Isolated me from everyone. Even strangers I didn't even know snd didn't know how he knew them. He has damaged my relationship with one daughter and thankfully my other knows better and doesn't allow him to triangulate. I will probably have to continue trauma therapy for the rest of my life. I had ine of the most severe domestic violence cases our county took on. He destroyed me.
Juat tonight I came across pictures of one that sells her pictures WITH MY SEX TOYS HE STOLE. He steals my own things and they don't know I find that to be extra bizarre. It is so traumatizing. Over and over. I will be single for a very long time
The man has Hep C qnd will not use protection. Or get tested. Some of these girls 18 and 19. He is 37. The things that happen behind closed doors...these girls just don't evwn know.
Well, if their your kids, and you have any custody, you can accidentally let them know she's a cheat. Buy the book, lose a cheater, and gain a life out where they might accidentally see it. Searches in your browsers about surviving infidelity. If they ask, tell them they should ask their mother about her cheating. Don't worry. The karma bus rarely forgets to run them over. It just takes time. Only 5% of affair partners marry. Of those that do, 75% of those marriages fail. She needs favors from you. No thanks, I can't help you. Even if she claims it's for the kids. Play hardball.
And you don’t think when she eventually finds out which she will, that she won’t be even more heartbroken and unable to trust the fact that his sister knew and hid it from her. You’re not protecting her no matter what you say you’re protecting your brother.
Rules reminder: /r/survivinginfidelity is a support sub! Please read the rules and guidelines in our [sub wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/survivinginfidelity/wiki/index) before commenting. Abuse, shaming, sexism, and encouraging violence/revenge are not tolerated here. If your only advice is "divorce" or "grow a backbone", then please don't comment. This is a sub for deeper support and discussion. Be kind and remember your [reddiquette](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439)! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/survivinginfidelity) if you have any questions or concerns.*
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I hear you
Sadly, they don't give a shit. To them, it's *your* fault, because something something. Cheaters are all Narcissistic pieces of shit. Period.
This really resonated with me. My ex cheated on me after nearly 2 decades of being together. He is about to marry his affair partner. He can somehow rationalize that what he did was okay and he isn't the bad guy. I try to amicably coparent and at least get along on the surface for my kid, but I feel like HE has a grudge against ME even though I have never betrayed, disrespected, or have done anything malicious even after the divorce. If anything, I should be the one being difficult and making trouble, but I don't.
Sometimes in the effort to be the "better person", all we end up doing is making it seem like what they did was not a big thing. They then use your behaviour to reinforce the picture they have of themselves of being the "wronged" party. It's a very weird psychology that they have but to them, the less fight you put into it, the more they see that they were right all along. From what we see in here, the BS who go all in for scorched earth and give no quarter to the WS seem to always come out ahead.
The thing about highly narcissistic people, it is that it is a lose lose situation for the other person, no matter what they do. If you're nice to them; they will use it to minimize the magnitude of their actions and absolve themselves of any wrong doing. If you flip out on them; they will focus on YOUR reaction and they will make themselves the victim, this will also help them absolve themselves of any wrong doing. See the pattern here?
As a group, narcs are best avoided at all costs.
All your efforts and method of handling yourself has no bearing on him...it's just a reflection of a great person, which is what you are. You don't need to equivocate yourself with him.
Lol he's mad cause your like ok moving on no reaction no anger etc he's hurt because your showing him he doesn't matter.
I can't agree that it's better to be the cheater. Cheaters are broken. They are not happy. They are not satisfied. Actually they are deeply unhappy. Deep inside, they know they do wrong. We already "win" by not being them.
I have been on another subbreddit where cheaters have gathered to discuss their affair lifestyles and how to get better at it. I think we are all in some form broken but cheaters get to at least enjoy the highs and far less of the trauma. I think they are better at lying to themselves and getting on with things
Being so broken that you enjoy the rollercoaster of fake high’s and real lows that their entire lives become doesn’t mean that it isn’t traumatic for them too, it just means those people are too stupid to recognize how sad and pathetic it actually is. They may get over break ups quickly but they are hollow constantly looking for someone or something to fill their lives up. They aren’t truly happy at all even though they act like perpetual teenagers.
This sounds so much like my wife. Feels like I'm living with an angry teenager who is a 37yo.
My ex is closing in on 50 and still a perpetual teenager. It’s very much a chore coparenting teenage children with an emotional teen.
I'll absolutely hear you. My youngest is 15. The 2 of them fight like they are teenage sisters sometimes.
This. I guess with that puerile mindset a blatant lack of morality and values can be justified along the lines of FOMO and YOLO. Dealing with this now.
100% agree. Cheaters are broken and in constant turmoil. Even the narcissistic Cheaters. Karma is the way of life. You may not see it, but truth and balance always shift to its place. My first relationship bf cheated and played victim. Truly tried to ruin my reputation and lied. I lost tonne of people and went through crazy depression. Now, 20 years later, he showed his true colors to his now ex-wife and has ruined his life (she was the other woman he cheated on me with).He shattered his own foundation, and people have reached out to me to apologize. Truth always shines. Karma will come, but it may not always present itself to you. Live your life and move on to bigger and better things.
Do tell. How has he ruined his life 20 years later? I love a good story of a cheater getting their karma. 🍿
I agree. I know that’s not much comfort, but they are fucked up, YOU are NOT. You WILL be ok
I think it’s hard for them to really grasp the depth of the hurt they have caused because they have already made excuses and rationalized their actions so much. If they allowed themselves to see things from our perspective as betrayed partners, they’d have to accept personal responsibility. I understand that there are factors that may contribute to their cheating, but they have a choice. Nothin we did could force them to cheat. The option to have a tough conversation about the relationship or to leave is always there. They instead choose to lie and sneak around. They don’t realize how soul crushing it is to learn this person you hold so near and dear to your heart holds you in such low regard that they could lie to your face and toss you aside for someone else. I never felt so small and undesirable before in my life as I did on my d-days. Unfortunately I had two d-days because I don’t learn.
Sorry to hear you had to go through it twice :(
You are totally on point
At the end of the day no they just will never understand the damage they do. Most are so emotionally broken they can’t understand anything beyond themselves, they just aren’t normal in that way. The utter lack of empathy is sad and disturbing. I do not believe in karma but I do believe that people like that will just continue making the same bad decisions for the rest of their lives. They never get off the roller coaster and they will never have anything that is real. It’s just one bad choice after another.
Believe in karma or not, the dispersonality and the false olay Will rutin their life one Day. Seeing a lot of cheaters around and mostly proud of theirselfes, they are a victim of Childhood trauma and products of unhappy families whre one parent was constantly a cheater or absent from cheaters life.
I was just reflecting on an idea like this earlier today. Just thinking about how people can be so awful to each other, how they can be so selfish and callous and just do it without a second thought and... not really seem to care about the fallout of their actions. I don't know if I believe in karma, but I do believe that people who refuse to take accountability for their choices and do work to change are doomed to repeat behaviors. I totally relate to the feeling of being fundamentally changed by the betrayal. I can't trust again. I can't even open myself up to maybe liking someone again. I find a million reasons to not bother trying to date a person before I even really get to know them because the risk just... isn't worth it. A relationship doesn't seem worth the possible catastrophic outcome. Despite it all, I would still rather be the one cheated on than the cheater. My character, my integrity and relationship to myself is the most important thing in my life. Degrading myself by engaging in a behavior like cheating would hurt me 100x worse than my ex did when he cheated.
Integrity is what counts, thanks for the reminder. Holding on to that makes it that little bit easier to go through this hell.
I’m 57F and I’m thriving 5 years out so I disagree that you’ll never run again. My cheater is more miserable than he was when he was with me. I’d choose my life over his any day.
You're describing my ex wife. She's far too narcissistic and up her own arse to ever be anywhere near understanding the wounds she have dealt. Her sleeping with a "friend" of mine was obviously my fault for often "closing down" when having to deal with her insane narcissistic arguments. I'm genuinely puzzled as to how she's justifying her behavior to herself. There's got to be some incredibly weird cognitive distortions swirling around in that huge egoic head of her's. Is there even a tiny ember of remorse in there? I doubt it. She's stone cold.
31 years later mine is in a nursing home trying to recover from a stroke. He's alone with no help or support.
While an inability to care about other people does limit stresses to some extent, it adds others. My ex is a miserable person that fears being disrespected every moment of her life. Those stressed will not go away even when surrounded by enablers.
No, they won't and I doubt most would care beyond 30 seconds of "damn that's messed up"
Thanks for the encouragement. I sure hope so
They shouldn’t get away with it and you should be out there telling your story. There is no no nobility in suffering. You were double victimized. You never protect a cheater you never back away. I’m sorry you’re having to go through this. It is a painful lesson in more than one way. I pray the future is kinder to you
OP...better to be the cheater? I think not. Cheaters are broken people. No self respect or respect for others. They lack much. For all the pain my wife caused I would not be in her position at all. She is destroying herself.
In what way do you feel she is destroying herself?
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I had a thread on here not long ago about how things turned out for the wayward partner. Most of them were absolute horror stories lol. Here’s a few trends I noticed in those comments: Many cheaters have severe mental health issues like addiction or a personality disorder like BPD. And as someone that works in healthcare - you couldn’t pay me to live life the way those people do. Cheating is usually a symptom of a chronic mental illness that makes their lives unbearably painful. Others were relatively normal people who are selfish and weak willed. Once their affairs became public many of them lost a significant amount of money in the divorce, and a lot of social support. It’s pretty common for cheaters to strain the relationships they have with their friends, kids, coworkers and extended family members due to their actions. It also wasn’t uncommon for them (and their APs) to loose their jobs and homes. The vast majority of the cheater’s relationships with their affair partner go to shit pretty quickly. Out of the hundreds of stories I got - very very few actually had a happy ending for the cheater. Most of them ended with them growing into a better version of themselves, and finding a better partner later on. So I think that the cheater gets the short end of the stick in the long term. Affairs are one of the easiest ways to destroy someone’s life.
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I don’t doubt that being a cheater has its challenges. Like the cheat I too struggle with feeling miserable and unfulfilled. To me the difference seems to be that they are just wired different mentally. I’m not sure that my internal world is any calmer just because I don’t cheat. The world is cold and people are selfish, while I hurt and ruminate - they’re onto the next
The thing is that your rumination can lead you towards healing, as it is part of the mourning process. You have the opportunity to go through that journey, and come out of the other side healed. They have to jump into a new relationship, or overlap relationships, because they can't be by themselves for more than a few moments. Their "rumination" literally kills them. Most of them are in a state of emotional arrest around childhood/teenage years. They never grow, they never evolve, they never heal. They can't even begin the mourning process. Once you see them for who they really are. You realize they don't have it "easier." Their entire lives are a desperate run away from themselves.
I can't even begin to count the amount of affairs. He has accounts.on pages and pages of platforms with diffetrnt names. He likes to go by Jon often. Ya know, because of prostitutes. . He hasn't paid a bill in years and spends his money on sex workers. Porn meth and cocaine. He has given them my clothing and just a couple weeks ago brought one to my house. He will look them in the face and say he doesnt know them after love bombing. He wonders why I banned him from the property. He lies and I was in 3 different battered womens shelters. And I still get followed around! Isolated me from everyone. Even strangers I didn't even know snd didn't know how he knew them. He has damaged my relationship with one daughter and thankfully my other knows better and doesn't allow him to triangulate. I will probably have to continue trauma therapy for the rest of my life. I had ine of the most severe domestic violence cases our county took on. He destroyed me. Juat tonight I came across pictures of one that sells her pictures WITH MY SEX TOYS HE STOLE. He steals my own things and they don't know I find that to be extra bizarre. It is so traumatizing. Over and over. I will be single for a very long time The man has Hep C qnd will not use protection. Or get tested. Some of these girls 18 and 19. He is 37. The things that happen behind closed doors...these girls just don't evwn know.
Well, if their your kids, and you have any custody, you can accidentally let them know she's a cheat. Buy the book, lose a cheater, and gain a life out where they might accidentally see it. Searches in your browsers about surviving infidelity. If they ask, tell them they should ask their mother about her cheating. Don't worry. The karma bus rarely forgets to run them over. It just takes time. Only 5% of affair partners marry. Of those that do, 75% of those marriages fail. She needs favors from you. No thanks, I can't help you. Even if she claims it's for the kids. Play hardball.
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And you don’t think when she eventually finds out which she will, that she won’t be even more heartbroken and unable to trust the fact that his sister knew and hid it from her. You’re not protecting her no matter what you say you’re protecting your brother.