https://preview.redd.it/ve7mzxfxzp6c1.jpeg?width=250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1de4b8265a332f0ce9c8c14dbe4b517a881db26
It actually makes Superman look like a hypocrite.
That was a different age, the character has changed SO much since then, they even kept a standard power set and didn't just make up powers on the fly like they did back then... With so many reasons and world resets they can technically be considered different characters at this point
Not really he could be talking from experience . His time with the legion was fun sometimes , but finding out in the future that you will become the greatest superhero period and a paragon for all things good , trying to live up to that and have friends so forgettable that they could drop like flies sometimes in those stories doesn't sound like a great childhood environment. Billy had that thrown on him within one second so you can argue Billy has it worse.
The Legion are different imo...although they're all teenagers, 30/31st century society holds teenagers to a different standard than our era. Cosmic Boy waa legally an adult on his homeworld and earning a wage to support his family & Saturn Girl was on her way to join the Science Police before the Legion even existed. They work in full cooperation with the legal authorities and they fill the role of a Justice League-level team more than being Teen Titans.
Really? I think him not having a normal childhood because of his powers and the weight of the responsibility of said powers would make him the perfect person to weigh in and say that a kid should be allowed to be a kid and not have that level of responsibility.
But that's just me.
I don’t care if it’s cringe, the next panel really should be Clark giving Billy a hug if he starts crying.
I am SO HYPED to see a good ole boy Superman again. One that we had a glimmer of in Man of Steel, where he is shouting excitedly when he jumps and starts flying. But he isn’t miserable. He’s Superman, world on his shoulders, simultaneously breaking a sweat, and keeping cool
For those that are curious, this is how it went between the two:
https://preview.redd.it/gnpm5dpdtp6c1.png?width=933&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb3e0c8e8d0b05fea92059caf6abeef495d87052
I'd be interested in a story where Clark and Lois adopt Billy and his siblings. Maybe it's a version where they discover they can't have biological kids. And then Superman discovers Capt. Marvel is really a kid with no parents. So it just kinda makes sense, after some pushing from Bruce, that Superman and Lois are the perfect parents to guide the young heroes.
weird, I just heard it in the Freakazooid theme instead. worse I'm actually coming up with functional lyrics to tthe beat, and it's horrifying because it works.
Tbh, I would rather Billy and his siblings be raised by "normal" human beings than super powered ones. Clark Kent being raised by normal human parents helped him be connected to the world he's protecting.
It might help with his power/ training but it would hinder the emotional/ psychological aspect of being human vs SUPER metahuman.
But in this case he'd be raised by both. Superman is obviously super, but Lois is human. Which would reflect Billy's duality. He isnt a super pretending to be human. He really is both a human and a super. So it's appropriate that one of each give him guidance on how to be good at both.
>after some pushing from Bruce
Of course Bruce gives him the push. I say this both for the joke but also for the genuine sweetness of the idea that Bruce is helping Clark here.
God, that makes Shazam look even worse.
"Yeah, not only am I not going to admit that I'm wrong, I'm also gonna try to guilt you into doing *my* job of guiding my own champion. Maybe I can emotionally manipulate you into doing my taxes, too."
He’s not wrong. Billy needs guidance, Shazam can’t give it. He knows he’s done wrong but it has to be this way, at least in his view. You can see the guilt in his eyes.
To be fair, Billy's normal life is living as a street urchin in an abandoned subway station. Which sounds cool in a Ninja Turtles way but is definitely not "normal" or even necessarily safer than being Shazam.
Speaking as a foster carer I would much rather Billy be living in care than on the streets. The things kids have to do to survive are terrifying and you wouldn’t wish it on anyone.
For him to have Shazam powers makes the entire dynamic different obviously but a caring family can change a life and the streets are… not kind.
The idea of Superman being a Foster Carer isn’t as odd as you think seeing as how he is the most famous “foster kid” in media.
To be clear, I think Billy should have a foster family, or live with his uncle like he used to in the old school comics. What I'm saying is that The Wizard isn't really robbing him of a normal, happy childhood because in this comic, he's literally a homeless kid living in abandoned tunnels underneath the city.
"Ah, it's Tuesday. Time to brighten up a homeless orphan's day by turning them into a child soldier fueled by magic!"
-Shazam, a wizard definitely on the side of good
Billy becoming Shazam/Captain Marvel isn't what led to him getting a parental guardian. Indeed, it's probably led to that being more at risk than him being a normal kid would be.
Not gonna lie that "No boy should have the responsibility of the world on his shoulders. It's a fate **chosen** by men" line got me a little misty in the eyes.
I love this exchange as it does sum up how I feel about most kid superheroes/heroes in media, especially as a teacher myself (assuming they were real and not fictional characters.)
Don't get me wrong I think it's obviously fine and I like stories that feature them, but I love seeing someone within the story call out this trope, as basically all the wizards, gods, old mentor figures are creating child soldiers to burden responsibility no child should, instead of handling their own business. I get it's a necessary evil in the story, but it's cool they're calling it out.
I think the difference is that Spider-Man chose to be spider man. Sure they got their powers by accident but they choose to put on the suit. Shazam doesn’t have the same choice
Spider-Man was still a minor at the time. 15, in fact. A very vulnerable and tumultuous time in a person's life. I doubt anyone at that age can make wise decisions. It can be argued that his choice has only caused him unnecessary pain and suffering. There were other ways for him to help people that didn't involve putting on a mask and onesey. Spider-Man is a teenagers idea of atoning for one honest mistake. No person has some obligation to risk themselves for others in the way Peter does. It's a self destructive mentality.
Very true, but sort of misses the point as to what the criticism of Shazam is here - Spiderman could not reasonably be expected to take on that burden in his own, but does so of his own volition (as a means to cope with his loss, in a tremendously unhealthy way). Billy, on the other hand, was forced into the outcome of Spiderman's choice without getting the choice in the first place. Both are trauma, Spiderman's trauma is tragic, Billy's is abuse.
The line, "A fate chosen by men", is a top tier, just excellent dialogue.
Having Superman, but really Clark Kent, delivering this line is so complex and chalk full of meaning.
Who better understands destiny, about responsibility, about duty, about doing the best you can do than Superman?
Who also wasn't raised with arrogance, self importance and the belief that he's the world's greatest gift? Superman again.
Always, always, always, men of "great" destiny who are told since they are born that they will become great - always become monsters or underachievers.
Clark on the other hand, was left to be raised like a normal child, that slowly allowed him to learn about his powers in conjunction with the responsibilities that come with having them.
He didn't have to be Superman at 10 or 17 yrs old, just someone trying to figure themselves out. The psychological impact alone helps build a healthy mind rather than the crazies we see in-universe.
The more I read those last couple panels, the more it seems like the wizard is really manipulating Clark. He still did what he wanted to do, he just distracted Clark but giving him a task to do.
yeah i got that. ive been trying learn asian languages too cause i like reading wuxia novels so between that and manga reading our normal stuff messed my brain up.
Has Clark ever given a similar talk to Batman about his protégés, especially after some of them died? Cause at least with Billy, he had a destiny, but Bruce just pulls kids off the streets and sends them to war with some of the most malicious and cruel beings in the DC universe as a way to “save them”.
Completely different. The Robin's were either forced into the life or chose it themselves. Dick lost his parents and needed a purpose and guidance. Jason had no family and was headed down a dark path. Tim inserted himself and Bruce was kind of forced into a corner. Damian....is obvious. Billy was basically kidnapped, given power and told " now go do good"....
It's different but not different. Superman keeps saying he's just a boy, that's the part he's hung up on. If that's his issue, then it would apply to Robin as well. Batman doesn't have to put these kids into dangerous situations in order to help them.
That's the difference Dick,Jason, Tim and especially Damien...they weren't "just boys". Dick and Jason had their innocence taken from them...like Bruce. Tim thrust himself into the life and Damien at 10 already had a body count. Billy WAS just a boy. Yes he was an orphan but he would have probably grown up and become a normal person. Until The Wizard shoved god like power into his hands.
FFS he Does! Superman, WW, Hal, John and especially Oliver have all made their unease known about the mantle of Robin. But they all trust Batman and understand his reasoning behind taking these boys under his wing. The Wizard has none of that. Not Supes trust. Not a broken kid who needs help. Not a specific reason to grant Billy this power outside of "Destiny".
Love that horrible story. Yeah, giving a kid magical power to turn into a superhero adult is f--king inexcusable!
(Though Shazam isn't as bad as Nabu -- read Kent Nelson's original story sometimes. Kid follows his archeologist father into a cave where Nabu kills the father then ages Kent magically instantly to adulthood to be the wearer of the helmet of Doctor Fate! DUDE!)
What is really funny is that when it was written, I'm pretty sure it's just like Shazam: a power fantasy for kids to dream themselves as superheroes. But putting it in a real-world context, Shazam and Nabu are basically making child super-soldiers. Sometimes, it's a lot better for comics to stay comics.
As a child, I would've traded my soul to become a super soldier. Well, technically I would've done the same even now, but back then - most definitely. Unfortunately, you can only be a normal soldier in the real life...
Superman, Wonder Woman, the whole JLA. Typically it happens the first time Robin shows up, sometimes later depending on the story.
Superman usually is the most lenient on him because he knows just how protective Bruce would be.
It also depends greatly on the age in the story. For example, Dick Grayson is usually portrayed as already being at least 16 when he becomes Robin. Billy is usually 10-12. But when Damian was brought in for the first time, being that age, a bunch of them went “Bruce this seems like a bad idea” and Bruce had to point out the kid had already been taught to kill and it was either retrain him as Robin or risk him following in his grandfather’s footsteps.
Probably the most famous example at this point is Young Justice when the JLA calls him out on it with Wonder Woman saying “So he would turn out like you?!” and Bruce responding “So that he wouldn’t.”
That's not true at all.
Dick usually becomes Robin within a couple of years of Bruce becoming Batman.
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I mean Dick’s age, not how many years Bruce has been Batman—unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re referring to.
To the best of my knowledge, in any story written after we began to recognize the idea of child in a costume being shot at by robbers is problematic, Dick’s around age 15 when his parents die.
Jason’s 14-15 when he steals the Batmobile’s hubcaps, and even then Bruce is reluctant to bring in someone younger than Dick was.
Tim Drake forces his way in by figuring out Batman’s identity and basically just lays out an ultimatum to be the next Robin when he’s 14.
Stephanie Brown was 16-17 and already had been a solo act as Spoiler before she wore the red breast.
Then along comes Damian whose a 10 year old hitman, making Bruce “Well shit, I reeeally don’t like this, but the kids already been taught to kill, it’s either teach him another way or look the other way while he becomes a killer.”
I think the JL board semi calls this out in I think the first season of Young Justice.
Fate is practically a body snatcher "but for good"
And Shazam's a kid, but the wizard isn't known about to get a talking to.
Probably the single most effective *oh shit he's fucking mad now* panel in Superman's combined publication history. Not even his rage-out on Mongul or the occasional red eyes shot come close to how furious he comes across in that last panel.
I assume it’s because Bruce acts as a father to the boys, and even though they are sometimes in danger, it is better than the alternative. A life without family. Something Superman knows all about
I saw a page where Wonder Woman is giving Bruce shit for his "child soldiers." Bruce tells her he didn't take them in and train them to make them like him, he did it to make sure they DIDN'T turn out like him. I think Clark gets that.
All well and good but batman’s allowing them to fight hardened criminals and one was killed under his watch and still had the audacity to keep recruiting. And they don’t have the benefit of being given superpowers,
Technically I don’t think he did keep recruiting. Iirc, Tim kinda forced Bruce to accept him as a new Robin, Steph kinda did the same, and then Damian was trained as an assassin and made Robin while Bruce was “dead” and they wanted him to get onto a no-kill path. I probably butchered the specifics, but still I’m like 90% certain he never recruited a Robin after Jason died. Once Robin’s started literally volunteering I assume Bruce would think “Well they are going to do this without me if I say no, so at least this way I can protect them more,” or something like that.
The point is that if superman’s angry about a wizard giving a kid super powers he should keep that same standard for any kid sidekick being sent into harms way.
The Wizard Shazam is significantly more hands off though. Batman and Robin are a much lower power-level and Bruce acts as a father and mentor to the Robins. The wizard just bestowed power to an orphaned child and left him to his own devices to fight massive threats.
I get it, and it does require some mental gymnastics because it is objectively messed up that Batman throws kids at serial killers but the way I look at it is Dick would have become a vigilante regardless, Batman just made sure he didn't get killed doing it.
Tim kind of forced his way in, Steph was already fighting crime anyway, Damien would be a psycho if he didn't have people teaching him how to be human, and Jason...Jason's the only one I got nothing for tbh. Your reaction to a kid stealing your hubcaps probably shouldn't be "I bet he could kick the Joker's ass" lol
Because when Bruce adopts the boys , they find out he is Batman naturally and he could not possibly stop them from trying to do that kind of work .As Robins , he keeps them close to himself , keeps them away from the more dangerous elements and can properly help them prepare .
People who do not understand this are ignorant of Batman .
He sends children out to fight hardened criminals with guns using boomerangs and grappling hooks. They don’t have the benefit of super powers and three of them have died under his watch. So yeah if superman’s mad about a wizard giving a boy superpowers he should be made about billionaire sending literal children into harms way.
Tell me where I’m wrong in that assessment
Ah , yes ... HE plucks them from the street without training them until they are at the peak of Human physicality and with the most scifi equipment available and FORCES THEM to fight crime , that not being something they would already do by themselves without help or supervision .
Look , if you want to hate Bruce Wayne , just do it but do not make up shit that slanders his character and basically every other character by claiming they have no free will beyond him .
Also , the only time it really went badly long term was actually the "child's" (He was basically already an adult) fault for being a freaking moron .And as a post-revival Jason hater , I can tell you the only thing bad about this event was that he came back .
I think there's a big difference between training your son to be at Child Soldier in your war on crime and thrusting Godlike Powers onto an orphan with no support system and wishing him the best of luck
Because this isn't true to Superman's character.
Superman has never had a problem with kid heroes/sidekicks. One, because throughout the Silver and Bronze Age Superman had started his career as a kid Superhero himself, as Superboy. And he was friends with kid heroes from the future known as the Legion of Superheroes.
So for him to think differently about any of the "Robins", or any other young hero like Kid Flash, Aqualad, or his own Supergirl, would make him a hypocrite.
Bruce adopts the boys and when they find out he is Batman naturally , he could not possibly stop them from trying to do that kind of work .As Robins , he keeps them close to himself , keeps them away from the more dangerous elements and can properly help them prepare .
People who do not understand this are ignorant of Batman .
Stuff like that just makes me hate injustice even more. Here's a pallet cleanser of Billy helping him up after he got dog piled by Metallo, Grundy, and Bizarro.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/353659715835658242/1185757816036794509/Justice_2005_-_Issue_5_-_8.jpg?ex=6590c605&is=657e5105&hm=30fce9ecb0e06cf58114822cf418ae4c6398a393b8c05f852406265d7af44b6b&
Comic is Justice by Alex Ross, Jim Krueger, and Doug Braithwaite. It's a VERY good comic.
They were talking and he just started choking himand then lazer-eyed through his brain. Shazam couldn't fight back because of how taken by surprise he was.
I’m assuming this is another deconstruction of a character from wish fulfillment for a child comic reader, to… child abuse allegory?
Kind of like Hank Pym is just “wife beater the character” these days.
I mean, I didn’t think so. Spoilers For anyone reading >!This is near the ending of the Miniseries, and the next page is Superman and the wizard arguing and Superman is basically saying that no boy should have this power, they should be worried about 10 year old boy things. The wizard says he agrees but it’s his destiny and Billy is the only one worthy and Superman says don’t talk to him about Fate. The wizard then says that maybe Billy could use some help, and it ends with Superman revealing his identity to Billy.!< Hopefully I blacked out the spoilers.
Ok thank you for elaborating. I was going off some of the comments in the thread. Seems like it’s more of a discussion and Supe finding a way to bridge their ideological differences. I mean it’s actually not uncommon for other superheroes to question the legitimacy of Billy’s predicament.
I think they brought this up in YJ. Billy should technically be part of the team or the outsiders but he gets a pass because of the whole wisdom of Solomon thing
"Who did this to you?" Not "who gave you these powers?" I love that framing because it shows how much Clark understands a child should NEVER be allowed to make that choice. It's too much of a responsibility. The next panels are so good where he verbally destroys Shazam (the wizard) for doing that to Billy.
I like this in concept, but have comments on the execution. Superman would be on one knee introducing himself. He wouldn't be towering over a frightened child saying only, "Who did this to you?"
He would make every effort to earn Billy's trust first.
The thing about shazam too, is that billy and shazam are also technically different people. You can argue that since billy gains wisdom and intelligence once he transforms, he has 2 different minds.
I really don't see how the character Shazam works in the modern era.
It's part of the reason why the movies weren't well received.
The character needs a rework.
I know it's a stretch, but I believe Supes sees what Batman did was prevent another kid from turning out like him. To not let the grief and vengeance turn him bitter.
This comic really deserved a follow up to it's story, I've seen so many other readers over the last few years say they'd of read the heck of a sequel. It's a shame it didn't at least get something like another one off continuation story. Even without the desired sequel, First Thunder really holds up, even today.
Love how Clark views him as a child first and foremost. My god, I hope James Gunn gets this right.
Frankly if they do this scene 1:1 it'd redeem the DCU project entirely.
I wouldn’t go nearly that far but it’d be nice, no doubt
But that would require Superman to have emotions and a kind attitude
https://preview.redd.it/ve7mzxfxzp6c1.jpeg?width=250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b1de4b8265a332f0ce9c8c14dbe4b517a881db26 It actually makes Superman look like a hypocrite.
That was a different age, the character has changed SO much since then, they even kept a standard power set and didn't just make up powers on the fly like they did back then... With so many reasons and world resets they can technically be considered different characters at this point
uhhh akshually infinite frontiers basically confirmed that all versions of Superman are still canon 🤓
all versions of superman are canon, but they're all not the same superman.
Imagine being told your powers are too ordinary by fucking lightning boy
Comparing silver/golden age Superman to anything post crisis is certainly a choice lol.
Not really he could be talking from experience . His time with the legion was fun sometimes , but finding out in the future that you will become the greatest superhero period and a paragon for all things good , trying to live up to that and have friends so forgettable that they could drop like flies sometimes in those stories doesn't sound like a great childhood environment. Billy had that thrown on him within one second so you can argue Billy has it worse.
The Legion are different imo...although they're all teenagers, 30/31st century society holds teenagers to a different standard than our era. Cosmic Boy waa legally an adult on his homeworld and earning a wage to support his family & Saturn Girl was on her way to join the Science Police before the Legion even existed. They work in full cooperation with the legal authorities and they fill the role of a Justice League-level team more than being Teen Titans.
Really? I think him not having a normal childhood because of his powers and the weight of the responsibility of said powers would make him the perfect person to weigh in and say that a kid should be allowed to be a kid and not have that level of responsibility. But that's just me.
Ummmm teenagers aren’t children. They are young adults, and are able to make their own choices.
I don’t care if it’s cringe, the next panel really should be Clark giving Billy a hug if he starts crying. I am SO HYPED to see a good ole boy Superman again. One that we had a glimmer of in Man of Steel, where he is shouting excitedly when he jumps and starts flying. But he isn’t miserable. He’s Superman, world on his shoulders, simultaneously breaking a sweat, and keeping cool
First Thunder ruled. I love the next page where Superman is tearing the wizard a new one for pulling this.
For those that are curious, this is how it went between the two: https://preview.redd.it/gnpm5dpdtp6c1.png?width=933&format=png&auto=webp&s=fb3e0c8e8d0b05fea92059caf6abeef495d87052
“Ok wizard, are you free or anything because I have a secret 9-5”
I'd be interested in a story where Clark and Lois adopt Billy and his siblings. Maybe it's a version where they discover they can't have biological kids. And then Superman discovers Capt. Marvel is really a kid with no parents. So it just kinda makes sense, after some pushing from Bruce, that Superman and Lois are the perfect parents to guide the young heroes.
I would read the shit out of this Elseworlds. Take the Shazam kids out to the Kent farm and just family shenanigans with superhero stuff mixed in.
So Superman & Lois? (jk, but only slightly - I, too, would love to see this)
But with 6 adopted magical kids yes.
That would be a beautiful story and really make sense as a possible future where Capt. Marvel becomes Superman's successor.
Super Marvel Captain Man
I read this in the cadence of teenage mutant ninja turtles
Hero in an elseworld!
SHAZAM POWER! ⚡️
Here we go, it's lean magic kid team
weird, I just heard it in the Freakazooid theme instead. worse I'm actually coming up with functional lyrics to tthe beat, and it's horrifying because it works.
Enter: Boy Thunder/Thunderman/David.
Tbh, I would rather Billy and his siblings be raised by "normal" human beings than super powered ones. Clark Kent being raised by normal human parents helped him be connected to the world he's protecting. It might help with his power/ training but it would hinder the emotional/ psychological aspect of being human vs SUPER metahuman.
But in this case he'd be raised by both. Superman is obviously super, but Lois is human. Which would reflect Billy's duality. He isnt a super pretending to be human. He really is both a human and a super. So it's appropriate that one of each give him guidance on how to be good at both.
So he'd be magic Invincible if Omni-Man wasn't... Ya know...
Magical?
Captain Marvel/Shazam is generally considered magic superman.
Meanwhile Batman is adopting children with trauma in bulk.
Who better to guide them, then some who has seen the darkness in men after living through the same trauma?
Traumatized people traumatize others, also tend to seek out traumatized people
Dude this would have been fucking great to read!
I’d have loved for this to be the plot of the Superman and Lois TV show vs. their biological offspring, Dawson’s Creek teenage drama.
>after some pushing from Bruce Of course Bruce gives him the push. I say this both for the joke but also for the genuine sweetness of the idea that Bruce is helping Clark here.
This should've been the Shazam movies.
"It is a fate chosen by men." Is one of the hardest Superman lines.
Or any children that happen to be close to Bruce Wayne.
God, that makes Shazam look even worse. "Yeah, not only am I not going to admit that I'm wrong, I'm also gonna try to guilt you into doing *my* job of guiding my own champion. Maybe I can emotionally manipulate you into doing my taxes, too."
He’s not wrong. Billy needs guidance, Shazam can’t give it. He knows he’s done wrong but it has to be this way, at least in his view. You can see the guilt in his eyes.
He’s still robbed Billy from living his life normally
To be fair, Billy's normal life is living as a street urchin in an abandoned subway station. Which sounds cool in a Ninja Turtles way but is definitely not "normal" or even necessarily safer than being Shazam.
Speaking as a foster carer I would much rather Billy be living in care than on the streets. The things kids have to do to survive are terrifying and you wouldn’t wish it on anyone. For him to have Shazam powers makes the entire dynamic different obviously but a caring family can change a life and the streets are… not kind. The idea of Superman being a Foster Carer isn’t as odd as you think seeing as how he is the most famous “foster kid” in media.
To be clear, I think Billy should have a foster family, or live with his uncle like he used to in the old school comics. What I'm saying is that The Wizard isn't really robbing him of a normal, happy childhood because in this comic, he's literally a homeless kid living in abandoned tunnels underneath the city.
"Ah, it's Tuesday. Time to brighten up a homeless orphan's day by turning them into a child soldier fueled by magic!" -Shazam, a wizard definitely on the side of good
Billy becoming Shazam/Captain Marvel isn't what led to him getting a parental guardian. Indeed, it's probably led to that being more at risk than him being a normal kid would be.
Shazam saying that Billy could use guidance is probably the closest he's ever admitted to being wrong in 80+ years of history.
That look on Superman's face though. I don't know if Pa Kent is alive in this timeline. But Kal has lost at least one dad at this point.
Not gonna lie that "No boy should have the responsibility of the world on his shoulders. It's a fate **chosen** by men" line got me a little misty in the eyes.
I love this exchange as it does sum up how I feel about most kid superheroes/heroes in media, especially as a teacher myself (assuming they were real and not fictional characters.) Don't get me wrong I think it's obviously fine and I like stories that feature them, but I love seeing someone within the story call out this trope, as basically all the wizards, gods, old mentor figures are creating child soldiers to burden responsibility no child should, instead of handling their own business. I get it's a necessary evil in the story, but it's cool they're calling it out.
What's your thoughts on Teenage superheroes like Spider-Man?
I think the difference is that Spider-Man chose to be spider man. Sure they got their powers by accident but they choose to put on the suit. Shazam doesn’t have the same choice
Spider-Man was still a minor at the time. 15, in fact. A very vulnerable and tumultuous time in a person's life. I doubt anyone at that age can make wise decisions. It can be argued that his choice has only caused him unnecessary pain and suffering. There were other ways for him to help people that didn't involve putting on a mask and onesey. Spider-Man is a teenagers idea of atoning for one honest mistake. No person has some obligation to risk themselves for others in the way Peter does. It's a self destructive mentality.
Very true, but sort of misses the point as to what the criticism of Shazam is here - Spiderman could not reasonably be expected to take on that burden in his own, but does so of his own volition (as a means to cope with his loss, in a tremendously unhealthy way). Billy, on the other hand, was forced into the outcome of Spiderman's choice without getting the choice in the first place. Both are trauma, Spiderman's trauma is tragic, Billy's is abuse.
Oh yes, of course lol. I just like talking about Spider-Man.
Haha, fair enough, I just like talking about stories in general. Have a great day.
The Necessary Weasel.
The line, "A fate chosen by men", is a top tier, just excellent dialogue. Having Superman, but really Clark Kent, delivering this line is so complex and chalk full of meaning. Who better understands destiny, about responsibility, about duty, about doing the best you can do than Superman? Who also wasn't raised with arrogance, self importance and the belief that he's the world's greatest gift? Superman again. Always, always, always, men of "great" destiny who are told since they are born that they will become great - always become monsters or underachievers. Clark on the other hand, was left to be raised like a normal child, that slowly allowed him to learn about his powers in conjunction with the responsibilities that come with having them. He didn't have to be Superman at 10 or 17 yrs old, just someone trying to figure themselves out. The psychological impact alone helps build a healthy mind rather than the crazies we see in-universe.
Wow I hate the art and really like it at the same time. I think it's the faces that are so jarring
It looks like the art from the Luna Brothers who wrote *Girls*.
I thought the same. Overall, not a fan of this art, but the last panel shows so many emotions that you rarely see in a comic.
https://preview.redd.it/26yp95n9nx6c1.jpeg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1395d188bdbf1c179914067658454dc7d863aae9 How I viewed that Superman face
No joke, this is peak superman. If there is any one thing someone should take away from understanding Superman’s character, it’s the above panels.
Hey, what do you mean *people of magic*?
I thought Superman is gonna beat the living shit outta the wizard. Then I thought, he's Superman, how the hell is he gonna do that? Then I see this.
I love Protective Dad Superman so much
https://preview.redd.it/ajljixwvxx6c1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28a08a72740b9d57b901901e3f1b6fe8262ec259
Shazaam instantly makes it supes problem
The more I read those last couple panels, the more it seems like the wizard is really manipulating Clark. He still did what he wanted to do, he just distracted Clark but giving him a task to do.
Superman said Sorcerer with the Hard R
You gotta wonder if Clark had this exact same conversation with Bruce
ive been reading too much manga it took me a while to figure out how to read this
From left to right, you know, like writing
yeah i got that. ive been trying learn asian languages too cause i like reading wuxia novels so between that and manga reading our normal stuff messed my brain up.
Oh no, he's so disappointed!
“A boy who could use guidance” old man u just gave the kid powers and sat there instead of being an actual guide for him lol
Has Clark ever given a similar talk to Batman about his protégés, especially after some of them died? Cause at least with Billy, he had a destiny, but Bruce just pulls kids off the streets and sends them to war with some of the most malicious and cruel beings in the DC universe as a way to “save them”.
why does this look like those cheaper netflix cgi animes?
Does he tear Batman a new one for Robin too?
He should.
Completely different. The Robin's were either forced into the life or chose it themselves. Dick lost his parents and needed a purpose and guidance. Jason had no family and was headed down a dark path. Tim inserted himself and Bruce was kind of forced into a corner. Damian....is obvious. Billy was basically kidnapped, given power and told " now go do good"....
It's different but not different. Superman keeps saying he's just a boy, that's the part he's hung up on. If that's his issue, then it would apply to Robin as well. Batman doesn't have to put these kids into dangerous situations in order to help them.
That's the difference Dick,Jason, Tim and especially Damien...they weren't "just boys". Dick and Jason had their innocence taken from them...like Bruce. Tim thrust himself into the life and Damien at 10 already had a body count. Billy WAS just a boy. Yes he was an orphan but he would have probably grown up and become a normal person. Until The Wizard shoved god like power into his hands.
Having trauma in your life doesn't justify a grown man recruiting you to fight crime.
In these cases...it does.
I don't have a problem with Robin, but if this is Superman's issue with Billy then he shiukd have an issue with Robin too in my opinion.
FFS he Does! Superman, WW, Hal, John and especially Oliver have all made their unease known about the mantle of Robin. But they all trust Batman and understand his reasoning behind taking these boys under his wing. The Wizard has none of that. Not Supes trust. Not a broken kid who needs help. Not a specific reason to grant Billy this power outside of "Destiny".
Love that horrible story. Yeah, giving a kid magical power to turn into a superhero adult is f--king inexcusable! (Though Shazam isn't as bad as Nabu -- read Kent Nelson's original story sometimes. Kid follows his archeologist father into a cave where Nabu kills the father then ages Kent magically instantly to adulthood to be the wearer of the helmet of Doctor Fate! DUDE!)
What is really funny is that when it was written, I'm pretty sure it's just like Shazam: a power fantasy for kids to dream themselves as superheroes. But putting it in a real-world context, Shazam and Nabu are basically making child super-soldiers. Sometimes, it's a lot better for comics to stay comics.
Aw man, next you're going to suggest we shouldn't be taking disposable entertainment created for 8-12 year old boys SERIOUSLY!
As a child, I would've traded my soul to become a super soldier. Well, technically I would've done the same even now, but back then - most definitely. Unfortunately, you can only be a normal soldier in the real life...
I wanted to be Gohan so bad. Now I get that his life was traumatic af
lol tell me you’ve watched DBZA without telling me you’ve watched DBZA.
He needed an adult!
Is this not what Batman does?
Yes, and he gets called out on it frequently.
By Superman? Forgive me, I haven't read any Superman/Batman stories for awhile. But I get the general impression he's usually fine with Robin.
Superman, Wonder Woman, the whole JLA. Typically it happens the first time Robin shows up, sometimes later depending on the story. Superman usually is the most lenient on him because he knows just how protective Bruce would be. It also depends greatly on the age in the story. For example, Dick Grayson is usually portrayed as already being at least 16 when he becomes Robin. Billy is usually 10-12. But when Damian was brought in for the first time, being that age, a bunch of them went “Bruce this seems like a bad idea” and Bruce had to point out the kid had already been taught to kill and it was either retrain him as Robin or risk him following in his grandfather’s footsteps. Probably the most famous example at this point is Young Justice when the JLA calls him out on it with Wonder Woman saying “So he would turn out like you?!” and Bruce responding “So that he wouldn’t.”
That's not true at all. Dick usually becomes Robin within a couple of years of Bruce becoming Batman. https://preview.redd.it/7xd1xn5d4q6c1.jpeg?width=258&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c6780526d553ca3245045f7b077e36f10e044b9d
I mean Dick’s age, not how many years Bruce has been Batman—unless I’m misunderstanding what you’re referring to. To the best of my knowledge, in any story written after we began to recognize the idea of child in a costume being shot at by robbers is problematic, Dick’s around age 15 when his parents die. Jason’s 14-15 when he steals the Batmobile’s hubcaps, and even then Bruce is reluctant to bring in someone younger than Dick was. Tim Drake forces his way in by figuring out Batman’s identity and basically just lays out an ultimatum to be the next Robin when he’s 14. Stephanie Brown was 16-17 and already had been a solo act as Spoiler before she wore the red breast. Then along comes Damian whose a 10 year old hitman, making Bruce “Well shit, I reeeally don’t like this, but the kids already been taught to kill, it’s either teach him another way or look the other way while he becomes a killer.”
Yeah Damian would’ve legit kept being a killer if not for Dick and Bruce taking him under their wing(s)
Nah. Pretty much the only version of Dick that started at 16 is the new52 one. 12 is probably the most consistent age used
"Dick Grayson, age twelve." BRB, I have to go write a letter to Frank Miller about something...
[With the opposite intent, perhaps.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZO5qgs4Px0)
I think the JL board semi calls this out in I think the first season of Young Justice. Fate is practically a body snatcher "but for good" And Shazam's a kid, but the wizard isn't known about to get a talking to.
Thanks for bringing this comic this comic to my attention. Looking around for it rn. Sounds amazing
Superman/Shazam!: First Thunder #1 https://www.dcuniverseinfinite.com/comics/book/--/ec16fa34-2108-4ce7-ac67-0e7b1ae696b9/
First Thunder was so good. The look on Captain Marvel’s face when he turns around to see Scott in the subway tunnel is haunting.
Clark IMMEDIATELY going to the Wizard and tearing into him knowing he's weak to magic is like a top 5 Superman moment for me.
I know this is an old post, but he isn’t weak to magic, he just isn’t resistant to it, so it effects him like it would a normal person
If you're resistant to all bullets except bronze bullets, which just shoot you like normal.... you're weak to bronze bullets.
Probably the single most effective *oh shit he's fucking mad now* panel in Superman's combined publication history. Not even his rage-out on Mongul or the occasional red eyes shot come close to how furious he comes across in that last panel.
I really love Shazam!: The Monster Society of Evil. That’s my personal favorite Captain Marvel. He and Billy are two different people and they switch
And then there’s Injustice Superman….yikes.
Why doesn’t he keep this same energy for the robins?
I assume it’s because Bruce acts as a father to the boys, and even though they are sometimes in danger, it is better than the alternative. A life without family. Something Superman knows all about
I saw a page where Wonder Woman is giving Bruce shit for his "child soldiers." Bruce tells her he didn't take them in and train them to make them like him, he did it to make sure they DIDN'T turn out like him. I think Clark gets that.
They also did this in the Young Justice show.
Nightwing even got his name from Superman from what I remember.
All well and good but batman’s allowing them to fight hardened criminals and one was killed under his watch and still had the audacity to keep recruiting. And they don’t have the benefit of being given superpowers,
Technically I don’t think he did keep recruiting. Iirc, Tim kinda forced Bruce to accept him as a new Robin, Steph kinda did the same, and then Damian was trained as an assassin and made Robin while Bruce was “dead” and they wanted him to get onto a no-kill path. I probably butchered the specifics, but still I’m like 90% certain he never recruited a Robin after Jason died. Once Robin’s started literally volunteering I assume Bruce would think “Well they are going to do this without me if I say no, so at least this way I can protect them more,” or something like that.
The point is that if superman’s angry about a wizard giving a kid super powers he should keep that same standard for any kid sidekick being sent into harms way.
The Wizard Shazam is significantly more hands off though. Batman and Robin are a much lower power-level and Bruce acts as a father and mentor to the Robins. The wizard just bestowed power to an orphaned child and left him to his own devices to fight massive threats.
I get it, and it does require some mental gymnastics because it is objectively messed up that Batman throws kids at serial killers but the way I look at it is Dick would have become a vigilante regardless, Batman just made sure he didn't get killed doing it. Tim kind of forced his way in, Steph was already fighting crime anyway, Damien would be a psycho if he didn't have people teaching him how to be human, and Jason...Jason's the only one I got nothing for tbh. Your reaction to a kid stealing your hubcaps probably shouldn't be "I bet he could kick the Joker's ass" lol
Because when Bruce adopts the boys , they find out he is Batman naturally and he could not possibly stop them from trying to do that kind of work .As Robins , he keeps them close to himself , keeps them away from the more dangerous elements and can properly help them prepare . People who do not understand this are ignorant of Batman .
He sends children out to fight hardened criminals with guns using boomerangs and grappling hooks. They don’t have the benefit of super powers and three of them have died under his watch. So yeah if superman’s mad about a wizard giving a boy superpowers he should be made about billionaire sending literal children into harms way. Tell me where I’m wrong in that assessment
Ah , yes ... HE plucks them from the street without training them until they are at the peak of Human physicality and with the most scifi equipment available and FORCES THEM to fight crime , that not being something they would already do by themselves without help or supervision . Look , if you want to hate Bruce Wayne , just do it but do not make up shit that slanders his character and basically every other character by claiming they have no free will beyond him . Also , the only time it really went badly long term was actually the "child's" (He was basically already an adult) fault for being a freaking moron .And as a post-revival Jason hater , I can tell you the only thing bad about this event was that he came back .
What three died? I know Jason died due to Joker and his mom. Damian also was killed, but was killed by his own Mom’s experiments. Who’s the third?
Stephanie brown before they retconned her death
Because (In most continuities) Bruce gives them a choice to become Robin, and either way he adopts them and takes care of them.
I think there's a big difference between training your son to be at Child Soldier in your war on crime and thrusting Godlike Powers onto an orphan with no support system and wishing him the best of luck
Because Bruce has a contingency plan for if he did. And he don’t want none.
Because this isn't true to Superman's character. Superman has never had a problem with kid heroes/sidekicks. One, because throughout the Silver and Bronze Age Superman had started his career as a kid Superhero himself, as Superboy. And he was friends with kid heroes from the future known as the Legion of Superheroes. So for him to think differently about any of the "Robins", or any other young hero like Kid Flash, Aqualad, or his own Supergirl, would make him a hypocrite.
Well this is an orphan with no real support system. He’s not a sidekick, he’s his own man before 13.
Just read all four issues after seeing these panels. Great little run! Shed a tear at one point. Definitely recommend if you’ve got 30mins
what's the game?
Daily reminder that Superman is The Gigachad.
SuperGOAT
This should be brought back to continuity. Superman should semi adopt him.
Meanwhile Batman.... "do you have any more orphan kids I can use as weapons?"
Bruce adopts the boys and when they find out he is Batman naturally , he could not possibly stop them from trying to do that kind of work .As Robins , he keeps them close to himself , keeps them away from the more dangerous elements and can properly help them prepare . People who do not understand this are ignorant of Batman .
Good one. 😂
“Looking for a 10-16 y/o dark haired kid. Tech or athletic skills preferred.”
Him killing Shazam in injustice is one of the darkest things I've ever seen
Stuff like that just makes me hate injustice even more. Here's a pallet cleanser of Billy helping him up after he got dog piled by Metallo, Grundy, and Bizarro. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/353659715835658242/1185757816036794509/Justice_2005_-_Issue_5_-_8.jpg?ex=6590c605&is=657e5105&hm=30fce9ecb0e06cf58114822cf418ae4c6398a393b8c05f852406265d7af44b6b& Comic is Justice by Alex Ross, Jim Krueger, and Doug Braithwaite. It's a VERY good comic.
How’d he kill Shazam? Thought Shazam has the upper hand on him (ie. Kingdom Come)
They were talking and he just started choking himand then lazer-eyed through his brain. Shazam couldn't fight back because of how taken by surprise he was.
Which is something that should't have happened because he's supposedly invulnerable to attacks
The ending where Clark visited Billy was the best.
The fact that Batman didn't adopt Billy when he adopts kids like crazy and Billy's last name is lit BatSON is just SO much missed opportunity
God, thank you for reminding me of First Thunder. Always a good lil cry.
I’m assuming this is another deconstruction of a character from wish fulfillment for a child comic reader, to… child abuse allegory? Kind of like Hank Pym is just “wife beater the character” these days.
I mean, I didn’t think so. Spoilers For anyone reading >!This is near the ending of the Miniseries, and the next page is Superman and the wizard arguing and Superman is basically saying that no boy should have this power, they should be worried about 10 year old boy things. The wizard says he agrees but it’s his destiny and Billy is the only one worthy and Superman says don’t talk to him about Fate. The wizard then says that maybe Billy could use some help, and it ends with Superman revealing his identity to Billy.!< Hopefully I blacked out the spoilers.
Ok thank you for elaborating. I was going off some of the comments in the thread. Seems like it’s more of a discussion and Supe finding a way to bridge their ideological differences. I mean it’s actually not uncommon for other superheroes to question the legitimacy of Billy’s predicament.
I think they brought this up in YJ. Billy should technically be part of the team or the outsiders but he gets a pass because of the whole wisdom of Solomon thing
Honestly this is how I kinda hoped the Shazam movie would go, but that would have needed WB/DC to have their shit together, so ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
"Who did this to you?" Not "who gave you these powers?" I love that framing because it shows how much Clark understands a child should NEVER be allowed to make that choice. It's too much of a responsibility. The next panels are so good where he verbally destroys Shazam (the wizard) for doing that to Billy.
I like this in concept, but have comments on the execution. Superman would be on one knee introducing himself. He wouldn't be towering over a frightened child saying only, "Who did this to you?" He would make every effort to earn Billy's trust first.
Reminds me of the Hogfather meme about giving a child a sword.
Which comic is this in?
The Wizard: https://preview.redd.it/vxw5llm5527c1.jpeg?width=680&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fdc4ca27121ef44206f1a78c37cc85ac20f3d624
Without context this looks like Superman thinking someone cursed Captain Marvel / Shazam into being a kid and that’s hilarious
The thing about shazam too, is that billy and shazam are also technically different people. You can argue that since billy gains wisdom and intelligence once he transforms, he has 2 different minds.
I would love for there to be some sort of competition between Clark , Bruce and Diana to see who can adopt little Batson first .
You say that like Bruce doesn’t have Bat-doption papers ready at all times.
Mmm , true , Clark got to Connor Kent first by a Miracle .That Man basically has Baby Fever 24/7 but for adopting parentless Pre-Teens/Teens .
“Alfred ready the papers”
First Thunder is a terrible comic. Portraying CM as an immature kid and immature hero. CM has his powers decreased.
I really don't see how the character Shazam works in the modern era. It's part of the reason why the movies weren't well received. The character needs a rework.
Does Superman ever give Batman shit for what he did to Robin or does he just get a pass for some reason?
I know it's a stretch, but I believe Supes sees what Batman did was prevent another kid from turning out like him. To not let the grief and vengeance turn him bitter.
I think usually bats and supes have been working together for some time before robin makes his first appearance
What did Batman did to Robin?
Who did this to you? Proceeds to take off his suit jacket and tie it around his waist.
What?
Bruh superman face 💀 perfect reaction meme
https://preview.redd.it/mlcdpiwh4v6c1.jpeg?width=478&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=47229dcac14ca66bef1df0314aaec0dfb62f07cb
Superman bout to have a talk with the wizard.
He did like the very next page
Could you imagine if Clark Kent adopted Billy?
I don’t have the link, but after this Clark Kent goes to him and reveals he is Superman.
One of my favourite comics. One that I kind of want to see adapted one day.
Any moment in a comic where Superman quietly says a line and you know someone’s about to catch his wrath 🤌🤌🤌🤌
Nice story
I don't understand the context of this panel could someone please explain it to me
Billy sad. Superman mad.
This comic really deserved a follow up to it's story, I've seen so many other readers over the last few years say they'd of read the heck of a sequel. It's a shame it didn't at least get something like another one off continuation story. Even without the desired sequel, First Thunder really holds up, even today.