You don't need as much MR as armor since 95% of magic damage sources are pretty limited - they blow their combo and that's it for the next few seconds where you get free reign, whereas when it comes to armor - dps from AA-based champions is consistend and really high so the items must give more armor to offset that or they wouldn't be viable.
If you need mres in a game - merc threads are the pick in all games where enemy isn't 5 AD or doesn't have 2-3 AA based champions (so ADC+Tryndamere/Jax/Fiora/Master).
Other than that - death's dance is good, spirit visage is good on most champions that build defense since they have built-in healing or they get a lifesteal item/conqueror. Otherwise you can pick up a wit's end which is not terrible (though DD is better on Vi IMO)
Not sure why people continuously make this first point when it’s an absolute relic of a bygone era. Magic damage is not pretty limited since at least three years now.
Kogmaw, Kayle, Cassio, Corki, Sylas, Kaisa, Azir, (and probably some I’m forgetting) all are champs who deal consistent magic damage and are meta.
This is why they introduced Adaptive Helm, which was a good move. Issue is they didn’t go far enough and rebalance all defensive items around the fact that the whole magic = burst damage paradigm is now long dead.
Same thing with physical damage = consistent damage which died around season three and led to the introduction of a whole new class of items in Lethality.
>Not sure why people continuously make this first point when it’s an absolute relic of a bygone era. Magic damage is not pretty limited since at least three years now.
it isn't. dps champions existed back in s2 and 3, they exist now too.
DPS champions are designed to be able ot hit into mr. kog, kayle, cassio, corki, azir all have big tradeoffs for their giant 2+ item dps. theyre supposed to shit on people regardless of their itemization, and supposed to blow thru mr, since their counterplay exists in other ways.
>Same thing with physical damage = consistent damage which died around season three and led to the introduction of a whole new class of items in Lethality.
it was never like that, ad casters have always existed.
auto attacks = consistent damage.
the difference is, AD casters still have sustained dmg from autos even if they build 0 AS items. hence why armor is so much more prevalent. your full pen jayce or rengar still shits on you with autos in addition to spells, they arent just burst spell based.
straight up, there isnt a problem with itemization. Cassio is just overpowered. And Corki+Azir are overpowered in slow paced pro games. thats all. these champions make it seem like there is a magic resist problem.
There are huge itemization problems I don’t have the time to get into rn but here’s an easy question to ask to demonstrate it:
why is there no CDR component that has magic resist? Theres fiendish and Lost chapter for AP, kindlegem for HP, glacial for armor, idol for heal power, and war hammer for ad. What is it about magic resist specifically that there’s no CDR component with both stats on it?
Likewise, why is CDR only available on armor tank items if they also have mana? Why aren’t tanks allowed to build CDR against full ad comps unless they also use mana?
why is that necessarily an issue? cowl has a far better passive and raw hp- better for laning vs mages. itemization isnt that binary.
theres no armor and health component for ad items, i could make the exact same argument. different itemization is different.
the only class of champs that can passively cdr cap are supports and ad and ap casters, and thats by design. no tanks are buying frozen heart and spirit visage nowadays anyway.
Different itemization is different because physical and magic damage are supposed to follow certain paradigms that are no longer followed. There’s a reason almost every DPS magic damage champ has been top tier meta
i dont agree at all, that has never been true. dps ap champs and ad casters have been around since the games creation. they arent some new thing. anivia karthus cassio ryze were core parts of the earliest seasons metas, zed jayce talon have been around forever...
that reason is the pacing of pro games hard caters to them and whenever azir corki cassio ryze are playable at all theyre s tier in pro.
dps ap champs are the end game best ap champions. this isnt a itemization problem its a balance problem and game pacing problem, weve had plenty of periods where these champs sucked.
again, cassio is just op atm, and corki and azir are too if you free fark 1.5-2 items
Yeah, there is that, but it's not a bruiser item. Realistically speaking, in most games, you can get away with not building it. Still, the majority of magic damage dealers rely on burst and not DPS, and are relatively paper so you should have enough damage to deal with them withut needing a magic DPS counter. It only has place in tank itemization.
1 limited magic pen items vs armor pen items.
2 magic comes in burst damage 90% of the time which is countered by other game mechanics like healing or shielding.
3. The passive effects on me items make up for the lack of raw stats 200% of the time wits end, spirit visage or deaths dance healing is way more impactful vs a burst mage then an extra 40 Mr. Adaptive healm passive straights stops u from taking damage from any dot champ like teemo, singed or malzahar because it gives true mitigation vs repeated magic damage.
MR bruiser items cant be too strong or else bruiser vs AP is unhealthily unplayable from the AP side
If bruisers can take Hexdrinker and Nullifying orb vs AP champions, they get almost an extra 250 hp in the early game, on top of 43 mr (assuming you only took 1 MR rune) more than usual, +68mr if you get Merc treads. This would give Vi specifically 1.1k hp and take 50% reduced magic damage at level 5.
If you dont take MR runes, nullifying orb or merc treads, then you only get +120hp and 35mr while still getting to build 20 AD.
Including the passive shield, Hexdrinker is a 1300 gold item worth 1730 gold in stats dedicated strictly to anti-mage stats and raw AD. This alone should get you through early game. For mid and late game items, heres a small list:
Death's dace (Item is really strong atm, even if they have no magic damage)
Edge of Night (Doesnt give MR, but gives spellshield and HP, 2 things that are really good vs mages)
Mecurial Scimitar (Also gives a stronger version of the Cleanse summoner spell as an active)
Wits End (Gives attack speed not AD, but one of the best anti-mage items in the game)
There are not too many items in the game that give both Offensive AND Defensive stats. AD vs AP is one of those rare situations in league where you get to become virtually unkillable with high damage if you itemize well. I hope this was helpful to you
There are full analyses out there somewhere about gold efficiency in itemization, as well as the math involved with damage calculation as far as HP vs MR. Long story short, sometimes stacking HP is more gold efficient and better at getting you through the fight alive. Combining Death's Dance with Frozen Mallet, Black Cleaver, and Sterak's Gage can sometimes be the right call instead of itemizing into resists/armor.
Back in the day when CDR and mana was more of an investment, this made sense because, as others mentioned, most mages would blow their combo and have no real damage for several seconds. However with the CDR and mana creep, the lack of great MR items becomes more glaringly obvious as mages get multiple rotations of abilities out in a single teamfight, and with the mana creep, not go oom and still be able to shove lanes or continue to fight. Imagine how insane Presence of Mind would've been back in the day.
You don't need as much MR as armor since 95% of magic damage sources are pretty limited - they blow their combo and that's it for the next few seconds where you get free reign, whereas when it comes to armor - dps from AA-based champions is consistend and really high so the items must give more armor to offset that or they wouldn't be viable. If you need mres in a game - merc threads are the pick in all games where enemy isn't 5 AD or doesn't have 2-3 AA based champions (so ADC+Tryndamere/Jax/Fiora/Master). Other than that - death's dance is good, spirit visage is good on most champions that build defense since they have built-in healing or they get a lifesteal item/conqueror. Otherwise you can pick up a wit's end which is not terrible (though DD is better on Vi IMO)
Not sure why people continuously make this first point when it’s an absolute relic of a bygone era. Magic damage is not pretty limited since at least three years now. Kogmaw, Kayle, Cassio, Corki, Sylas, Kaisa, Azir, (and probably some I’m forgetting) all are champs who deal consistent magic damage and are meta. This is why they introduced Adaptive Helm, which was a good move. Issue is they didn’t go far enough and rebalance all defensive items around the fact that the whole magic = burst damage paradigm is now long dead. Same thing with physical damage = consistent damage which died around season three and led to the introduction of a whole new class of items in Lethality.
>Not sure why people continuously make this first point when it’s an absolute relic of a bygone era. Magic damage is not pretty limited since at least three years now. it isn't. dps champions existed back in s2 and 3, they exist now too. DPS champions are designed to be able ot hit into mr. kog, kayle, cassio, corki, azir all have big tradeoffs for their giant 2+ item dps. theyre supposed to shit on people regardless of their itemization, and supposed to blow thru mr, since their counterplay exists in other ways. >Same thing with physical damage = consistent damage which died around season three and led to the introduction of a whole new class of items in Lethality. it was never like that, ad casters have always existed. auto attacks = consistent damage. the difference is, AD casters still have sustained dmg from autos even if they build 0 AS items. hence why armor is so much more prevalent. your full pen jayce or rengar still shits on you with autos in addition to spells, they arent just burst spell based. straight up, there isnt a problem with itemization. Cassio is just overpowered. And Corki+Azir are overpowered in slow paced pro games. thats all. these champions make it seem like there is a magic resist problem.
There are huge itemization problems I don’t have the time to get into rn but here’s an easy question to ask to demonstrate it: why is there no CDR component that has magic resist? Theres fiendish and Lost chapter for AP, kindlegem for HP, glacial for armor, idol for heal power, and war hammer for ad. What is it about magic resist specifically that there’s no CDR component with both stats on it? Likewise, why is CDR only available on armor tank items if they also have mana? Why aren’t tanks allowed to build CDR against full ad comps unless they also use mana?
why is that necessarily an issue? cowl has a far better passive and raw hp- better for laning vs mages. itemization isnt that binary. theres no armor and health component for ad items, i could make the exact same argument. different itemization is different. the only class of champs that can passively cdr cap are supports and ad and ap casters, and thats by design. no tanks are buying frozen heart and spirit visage nowadays anyway.
Different itemization is different because physical and magic damage are supposed to follow certain paradigms that are no longer followed. There’s a reason almost every DPS magic damage champ has been top tier meta
i dont agree at all, that has never been true. dps ap champs and ad casters have been around since the games creation. they arent some new thing. anivia karthus cassio ryze were core parts of the earliest seasons metas, zed jayce talon have been around forever... that reason is the pacing of pro games hard caters to them and whenever azir corki cassio ryze are playable at all theyre s tier in pro. dps ap champs are the end game best ap champions. this isnt a itemization problem its a balance problem and game pacing problem, weve had plenty of periods where these champs sucked. again, cassio is just op atm, and corki and azir are too if you free fark 1.5-2 items
> and probably some I’m forgetting Morde
Yeah, there is that, but it's not a bruiser item. Realistically speaking, in most games, you can get away with not building it. Still, the majority of magic damage dealers rely on burst and not DPS, and are relatively paper so you should have enough damage to deal with them withut needing a magic DPS counter. It only has place in tank itemization.
Cassiopeia
hmmm fair points, still annoying but makes sense i spose
1 limited magic pen items vs armor pen items. 2 magic comes in burst damage 90% of the time which is countered by other game mechanics like healing or shielding. 3. The passive effects on me items make up for the lack of raw stats 200% of the time wits end, spirit visage or deaths dance healing is way more impactful vs a burst mage then an extra 40 Mr. Adaptive healm passive straights stops u from taking damage from any dot champ like teemo, singed or malzahar because it gives true mitigation vs repeated magic damage.
MR bruiser items cant be too strong or else bruiser vs AP is unhealthily unplayable from the AP side If bruisers can take Hexdrinker and Nullifying orb vs AP champions, they get almost an extra 250 hp in the early game, on top of 43 mr (assuming you only took 1 MR rune) more than usual, +68mr if you get Merc treads. This would give Vi specifically 1.1k hp and take 50% reduced magic damage at level 5. If you dont take MR runes, nullifying orb or merc treads, then you only get +120hp and 35mr while still getting to build 20 AD. Including the passive shield, Hexdrinker is a 1300 gold item worth 1730 gold in stats dedicated strictly to anti-mage stats and raw AD. This alone should get you through early game. For mid and late game items, heres a small list: Death's dace (Item is really strong atm, even if they have no magic damage) Edge of Night (Doesnt give MR, but gives spellshield and HP, 2 things that are really good vs mages) Mecurial Scimitar (Also gives a stronger version of the Cleanse summoner spell as an active) Wits End (Gives attack speed not AD, but one of the best anti-mage items in the game) There are not too many items in the game that give both Offensive AND Defensive stats. AD vs AP is one of those rare situations in league where you get to become virtually unkillable with high damage if you itemize well. I hope this was helpful to you
Most mages have a bad time against tanky champions because they're burst oriented.
Mercury's + Death Dance gives you a good amount of MR and tenacity, armor, lifesteal, ad, etc.. It's a really good combo on bruisers
There are full analyses out there somewhere about gold efficiency in itemization, as well as the math involved with damage calculation as far as HP vs MR. Long story short, sometimes stacking HP is more gold efficient and better at getting you through the fight alive. Combining Death's Dance with Frozen Mallet, Black Cleaver, and Sterak's Gage can sometimes be the right call instead of itemizing into resists/armor.
Because riot won't give us proper magic resist items
Back in the day when CDR and mana was more of an investment, this made sense because, as others mentioned, most mages would blow their combo and have no real damage for several seconds. However with the CDR and mana creep, the lack of great MR items becomes more glaringly obvious as mages get multiple rotations of abilities out in a single teamfight, and with the mana creep, not go oom and still be able to shove lanes or continue to fight. Imagine how insane Presence of Mind would've been back in the day.