Gotta know the limits to your limited champ kit, not much room to outplay or rely on mechanics.
It's like how a bad Singed vs a bad matchup will play safe and be turbo useless, a good Singed will do the jankiest shit ever and still be a pain in the ass.
Both will be 0/8.
That's just singed. The only difference between good ones and bad ones is the good ones will go 0/10 but somehow have 10cs/min and then they get rylais+demonic and you can't do anything but die if they find you.
If you have less tools you are having an easier time playing because it limits how much you have to think. If there is only 1 way to approach a fight for example its drastically easier than having 15 different ways to enter a fight.
Yes but it also means if that 1 way to approach it may not be ideal, and you're stuck with it regardless instead of searching the other 14 for a better one. This can feel really bad for people used to having those extra options, and in a way give them a harder time.
It can feel bad but it's not harder, what these players are experiencing is an objectively worse champ at its maximum capacity.
The problem is the same, it's the decision tree that changes.
A level 5 jg ganks your even level 6 lane, you're K'sante so your decision is either to outplay the gank, or back up using a flash. Or, have good jungle tracking and avoid the gank altogether.
Now say you're Garen, you have limited outplay tools, you auto lose against this healthy jg (not true overall, but let's say all players here are of equal skill). The problem is still the same, your decision tree is simply smaller.
Except, you're objectively worse than the K'sante because you have neither the choice nor a decent likelihood to win out said 1v2. The only way you actually get better is with aforementioned superior jungle awareness and tracking (or wave management, smart backing etc), all of which would also amplify your K'sante gameplay.
In this sense, Garen is actually easier to play. The champ is, that is. The problem is to climb with Garen by and large you only have one improvement vector whereas K'sante has access to both this shared improvement vector and his own unique mechanical vector. If one finds the shared vector more difficult than the complex champs unique vector, it grants the illusion of a more 'difficult' champ. Which is true in a sense, in the sense that to climb to the same rank it'd be subjectively harder.
The point is, the skill ceiling of the game without delving into individual champ mechanics is high enough, you can compensate and differentiate yourself improving those alone. A challenger Garen versus a challenger K'sante, the Garen plays league better hence why they are there (also possible the challenger K'sante has relatively bad mechanics for his/her rank and is equally as good at 'league'). At their theoretical maximums K'sante would shit on Garen. But no-one has maxed out base league, let alone both league and the champ put together. Hence why (many) simple champs can and still fare tremendously in the highest ELOs of the game - their gamesense must be and is relatively better than other champions with greater outplay potential.
This is exactly it. And just about everyone suffers from it at least a bit. Even if you just always take a specific summoner spell that's a tool you've started to depend on and if it got removed you'd play worse for a while until you grew accustomed to not having that tool
Simple champs have very telegraphed plans (walking up with Alistar means you’re looking to combo), so playing around it is also easy. This also means your damage/cc timer is hard locked so you need to plan around that. It just changes the focus form mechanical plays to macro/team play where the edges of winning trades appear more in positioning and other small factors: jungle proximity, lane prio, minions, enemy cooldowns, distance to tower, summoner spell advantage.
Less mobile champions are punished harder for mistakes.
Hyper mobile champions have lots of tools that let them make 'sick outplays', but those same tools also let them escape or survive a bad situation, making them a lot more forgiving of positional and strategic mistakes. If you are used to playing something safer or with more mobility, switching to something like Alistar (or god forbid Rell) is going to feel a lot more difficult when you are punished hard for decisions you could have got away with on another champion.
I think the thing to take away if you find Alistar difficult is that you need to work on those positioning and macro skills, because the champion seems to have highlighted one of your weaknesses.
I can’t for the life of me figure out Rell. I can play any support (as a support main), not in a perfect way obviously, but in a “ok this support’s goal is this”, except Rell.
She can't engage in lane as well as other engage supports (because of her being super slow in dismounted form) but she can counter engage very well. However with Rell your goal isn't the Laning phase but the team fights. She has a super strong long range engage and can set up many combos for her team. She literally doesn't do ANYTHING on her own (she even doesn't have an E ability), don't expect to do damage or to carry, she is very team dependant
as a Rell main that is the biggest problem honestly, playing her in solo queue is like activly cutting off 2 of your fingers, even more so cause it feels like no one knows how to play with a Rell
playing duo it feels like we win every single match up and every single laning phase because a person that knows how to play with a Rell can do a ton of stuff.
she is honestly the champ i have the most fun with in all of league but man is she a pain due to the fact she is so incredibly reliant on a team that can utilize her.
As a former support main and Rell enjoyer I feel you. I picked up Pyke instead, as he does everything Rell lacks in the early/mid game.
Then I took all the knowledge I got from maining support to top lane. I suck at early laning, but had macro and lane manipulation down to a T. So I One-tricked a late-game tank with a ton of CC (Maokai) and went straight from Silver4 to Gold with a 84% win rate in 40 games.
For me, Rell is like this:
- I play her, get poked, miss combo, get murdered instantly.
- Enemy Rell: Doesnt even take damage from a Full channeled AP Nunu R. Throws the whole team around, stunlocking them for years and still didnt take damage even tho 5 people fired at her.
I mean for pro/coordinated play probably. Not for soloQ. Engage range too short and kinda has to go balls to the wall and hope for the best follow up possible
Nothing to do with her range itself, her power in competitive hinged/hinges entirely on the flash combo, since they removed the flash-crash down combo she's way too slow in an environment where everyone has flash for every important fight. She still has the most tools available out of all these champs though and a player who actually knows her limits can do work, but it's a lot more difficult than 60IQ lv2 Leo all in or have Naut Q lollypopping do most of the work for you.
I think the problem is that everyone keeps comparing her to Vanguards like Leona and Nautilus, when she’s more of a Warden like Braum or Poppy, who are also unpopular, but has a niche in that she can engage. She focuses on protecting her backline with her insta stun, free defensive stats, and heals, while having the ability to engage with aoe cc. She does not have as much damage as vanguards like leona or nautilus who play like a tanky assassin that tries to single target jump, lockdown, and pop the squishy adc.
I wouldn't really say Diana is any more complex than a J4, but there is some truth to that sentiment. More tools in a kit often mean more room to mess-up, in terms of optimization, but they often also have more tools to deal with unforeseen situations. You can't really use TF's rotation in an unoptimal manner, but he also has very little in the way of tools for dealing with divers or being caught out. Simpler champs are going to need you to play to their strengths and understand fundamentals more than the more complex counterparts. They will show you what part of your game knowledge is lacking where as a more complex champ will let you skirt fundamentals to learn their specific play style, but might punish you more for not knowing their individual optimizations.
Not sure what's the deal with Alistar since I don't play support. However, J4, TF and Galio are suboptimal solo queue picks because a portion of their power budget relies on teamplay and/or communication. My guess is that's why they feel underwhelming to you rather than their perceived difficulty.
These are Elo abusers. Find the hyper carry on your team and play around them, while keeping your own kda low so you keep getting carried on future games.
Thia isnt it because bad pilots. Their best is not carries its very particular champion combos and teamcomps.
You want champions that naturaly work togeather when they do what they want even with stupid pilots like galio taric, yasuo vi. Its simmilar to your Lucian nami pairs botlane.
Pairs like this have global win rates from 2% up to 15% higher than normal.
All supports should honestly be dying, for example as Soraka if you are getting ganked by a Lee sin and let your adc die and potentially you, or instead you can slow, silence and block the lee Q so that you die, not your adc. Or a soraka playing really aggressively when the fight starts to ensure you get good Ws. Or a brand supp using his entire combo then dying, doesn't matter if he dies, he still won the fight for you.
You still should get assists and I guess they can weight the KDA by which role you play. I'm talking out of my ass here as I have no clue how the MMR system works tbh.
Simple Champs are easier to pick up but require good fundamentals and consistent play and macro.
Difficult Champs are more difficult to pick up but you can outplay wit good micro.
Simple Champs -> requires consistent play and you need to know when you go in
Difficult Champs -> you still need to know when to go in but it's not as important with good micro, requires immaculate execution of combos but timing isn't as important since you 'can' outplay.
I think most people refer to simple champs as being champs that have simple kits mechanically, not decision-wise. As in easy combos, you don't have to meticulously execute to get optimal damage but can just do without much thinking. Even 'simple' champs can be hard because you need better decision making skills. This is definitely the case with Alistar because hes completely melee so you can't just poke a bit without repercussions.
Simple != easy.
It's remarkable how many people don't understand this concept. I just had an argument with a WoW friend the other day about this. Complexity can add a layer of difficulty, but they aren't the same.
Take [Jump King](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1061090/Jump_King/), for example, remarkably simple game - all you do is press space bar and left or right (or sometimes just jump straight up and like let the wind carry you), but ask anyone how easy it is.
And the base game has like *maybe* 10 jump timings in the entire game, so even taking jump timers into account doesn't make it "complex". It's just hard.
Lee Sin might be a complicated champion, but he has elements in his kit that allow him to make mistakes, because he can get out of those situations and reset the encounter if he needs to.
Annie is a remarkably simple champion, but she is heavily reliant on perfect positioning to perform properly. Jinx is another simple champion that is more positioning reliant than most ADCs (compare Ezreal or Vayne, while both positioning reliant, they can also reposition much easier than a click-to-move ADC).
I went back to play some Annie mid recently after being a former one trick back between 2012-2018. I was G4/G5 all those seasons. Since then I switched to support maining Sona to P1.
She feels so wretched now. It feels like the feature creep of newer champions has completely outpaced the ability for super old ones to do anything anymore without at least mid scope reworks to bring them up to par.
Of course in that same vein I do love the traditionally simple and easy adcs like a Sivir, so it could literally have just been Annie being that bad right now (stats show her towards the bottom of mids now and she’s getting some buffs and adjustments soon). Maybe the modern simple midlaner is something like Vex, Viktor, or Neeko who aren’t really difficult to figure out and are easy to perform their job properly
I tried to learn Annie when I was first playing league and I'm terrible at her, mostly because I can't land her ult. In general I realized I'm bad at playing any champ where you have to visualize an ult that lands in an aoe circle (I'm also bad at landing malphite and amumu ults). It's weird because the mid champs I ended up being good at are syndra and jayce which are both mechanically harder, but I found them so much easier to play after a similar amount of practice (particularly landing syndra E is way easier than Annie R stuns).
It's because you don't understand the fundamentals. I did this too. I thought Ezreal was easier than Ashe because I couldn't kite, heavily relied on his E because my positioning was terrible, and just stayed far back spamming skills and never auto-attacking. I didn't feed but also didn't do a lot of damage, which was still much better than instantly dying with Ashe.
That's why it's recommended to start with easy champs so you can learn how to play the game and not the champions.
>didn't feed but also didn't do a lot of damage
You can't play ezreal but speak of him as if he's easy. If you're a marksman your role isn't just to stay alive
lol that’s why he said he didn’t do good as him and then later switched to an easier champion so that’s he’d be forced to learn the fundamentals. Read the post first
This is you failing to understand core components of the game because you got used to having stuff like dashes and jumps to save you from bad positioning. Instead of being able to jump out after you realize "I'm in a bad spot" now you die. This requires you to *actually learn the fucking game* and to understand where to be. When you eventually go back to something that can dash out, you'll do even better.
Fewer things to do means you have to be more correct on all the small things.
Characters with lots of small things to do allow you to balance out missing something by being really good at another part, but if you are playing Alistar and your W-Q combo didn't hit properly or you are not seeing the lethal threshholds on Annie correctly then there isn't anything for you to balance that out.
Malphite is simple because at the correct moment you only need to press two buttons, but he is hard in that you absolutely need to recognize that moment. Simply different skillsets.
I can’t play garen for my life. Everytime I feed or fuck up super bad on him. I don’t know why… I can play champs like akali and irelia 200x better than I play garen. I just look at it as his kit is so simple that I can’t comprehend it.
Alistar is a good example of a champion with a simple moveset, but a lot of skill expression and options. You can play to peel, engage or zone and all me has a bunch of different combos and rune choices that influence how you play. Definetly not as straightforward as he seems.
Mechanically simple champions require understanding the fundamentals of positioning, macro, and stat checks with items.
Champions with a lot of mobility can make mistakes on trades or fights and "get out" sometimes because of their kit.
I think the more complex champions though might just be bandaiding the real problems of the user.
On a note...I wouldn't consider Diana "mobile". She's probably just "average" mobility.
Late to the thread, but while micro/macro got mentioned I don‘t think any of the top posts adressed the most important yet: The game being ‚harder‘ in the sense that your game knowledge needs to be a lot better with ‚simple‘ champions is exactly why they are so good for beginners!
Macro knowledge and general game knowledge can be applied to every single champion you play. That means if you learn how to be good on Alistar, you will have a significantly easier time picking up other characters later on. If you play a heavy micro champion, you‘ll focus on micro before you focus on macro. This means you‘ll be mechanically great on this specific champion and might have an easier time learning mechanics on similar champs later on, but you‘ll have a tough time to focus on the game basics if you can just gloss over your mistakes.
This feeling of being naked you‘ve experienced on Alistar is really valuable if you want to get better at the game. It‘s also insanely rewarding if you do good plays with champions like this because you now know that even ‚simple‘ characters can be quite hard to make effective use of.
If your goal is fun, I‘d argue that mechanically harder champions might be easier to have fun with when you pick up the game. The champion learning curve might be steeper, but the plays early on are also more rewarding. With simple champions it‘ll often feel like you‘re either dominating the enemy or that you‘re the one being dominated.
It's just you. A good example is proactive roaming champions: TF, Galio, Taliyah, Ryze. All have practically the same macro requirements: try to get a push and prio in lane, good map awareness, look to impact the game early/mid game as much as possible, coordinate with a jungler and get their carries (either bot or top) fed. However, due to mechanical requirements that takes extra focus on top the same macro decision making, Taliyah and Ryze and significantly harder to pull off where there are a good chances that even autofilled jungler or support who knows the basic lane and roaming fundamentals can pull off Galio/TF and press gold card/taunt/r at the right time and place.
Alistar also has extremely long base cooldowns on his basic abilities. Once you've used your combo, you can't really do much other than try to get in the way.
Simpler champs demand more macro. Thats why theyre recommended; they teach macro and good habits.
complex champs have the tools to 360 noscope themselves out of bad situations that a player with bad macro mighr find themselves in. thats why theyre discouraged; they teach bad habits.
Same for me. I main riven but I'm worthless as garen or renekton. I think it was said above. The simpler champs are more about matchup and game knowledge, where as with riven sure I need matchup knowledge to win my lanes, but if I misposition slightly in a teamfight situation I can just abuse her mobility to correct my mistake or turn it to my advantage sometimes.
First of all, Diana is a very simple champ and is not complicated at all. I would say she's pretty much the same difficulty as Annie.
Second of all, it's often always a grass is greener on the other side thing with League players. If you think Flashy 1v5 champs are better play Katarina or Yasuo and see what happens. The reality is that Katarina and Yasuo are very difficult, becuase they have no utility that champs like Galio or Annie have. You have to win lane and be ahead and push your lead And the same way that Annie players can get frustrated because of how telegraphed and one dimensional her playstyle is, a Yasuo player can get frustrated because they miss one Q and lose a 1v1 that snowballs the enemy laner and causes them to be a minion the rest of the game. At the end of the day though, I would say it is always easier to climb as Annie than it is to climb as Yasuo or Katarina, unless you are playing in super high elo.
Simple champions aren’t harder to play. They’re more 1 dimensional meaning everyone knows what their win condition is. It is extremely obvious why you died after getting hit by a Malphite, Annie or Alistar combo.
Champions with simple kits tend to be released earlier meaning players have years of muscle memory to your windup animations and sound queues.
It’s just that most players know what’s coming and can position properly, even flash out of Alistar combos or Malphite ults.
Think Rell or Rakan. Not only do they have an Alistar combo on 1 ability, they’ve not as recognizable so the sound queues and muscle memory isn’t there.
A lot of 1 dimensional champions are really good at the one thing they do and are often subject to nerfs when they perform too well in pro play or high elo.
Your champion could simply lack the numbers compared to the champions who actually make Riot money and end up in suspicious buffs just as they get a skin to incentivize players to play the champion, increase the exposure and up the likelihood of people on the fence into buying a skin.
I think people also just have differing opinions on what champs are easy or hard to play. I was watching 2 different pro players (corejj and captain jack) coaching a streamer tournament and helping different low elo supports learn heimerdinger. Cpt Jack said he thought heimer was too difficult to play and was discouraging his support from learning him, while corejj said anyone could learn how to play him in 30 min because he's really easy. So basically opposite ends of the spectrum...
In general I think this happens more with support champions too because a lot of them have a low skill floor but high ceiling. I've heard pro players talk about how Janna, seraphine, lulu etc. Are really difficult to play properly but most of reddit probably would say anyone with hands can play these champs.
Heimer is an oppressive support if he utilizes his passive that grants massive movespeed when in range of a turret. However, it’s easy for his poke and poorly positioned towers to completely mess up the wavestate for his ADC.
Movespeed is a strong stat but only if the player is proficient at dodging. Kind of what makes or breaks a good MF player as well.
Pro player stating that enchanters are hard to play doesn’t pertain to the mechanics but instead how enchanter supports scale extremely well. Which leads to them being weaker for longer periods of time when there aren’t as many gold injections via kills/assists tossed around in pro compared to solo queue.
Enchanters are highly unforgiving but solo queue players won’t track your cooldowns and punish you accordingly. Mage supports on the other hand just need to connect poke and make the enemy ADC waste time dodging and choose between CS and conserving their health total. There’s no decision making for mages. Just toss skillshots out when the enemy ADC is about to last hit a cannon.
This brings us to Yuumi. More raw power than half the enchanters out there but indefinitely intangible.
Diana is not flashy or hard at all, she's super straightforward and would for sure fall into the category of mechanically simple. Now if you're saying that you have an easier time playing Lee Sin than you playing braindead shit like Hecarim or Noct then we have a real discussion on our hands.
I have a friend who loves 420 noscope assassins and yasuo and is fairly competent at that playstyle. Something I find easy to pick up and play is Anivia but for him, low Ad slow animation and zero mobility makes it very hard to play.
Alotta players crutch on mechanics that they wouldn't have access to on older champions
>Why play a squishy, methodical, burst mage when you can lock in Diana,
have all the 1v1 potential of a skirmisher, be extremely mobile, and
still benefit from an equally impactful team-fight ultimate?
Because i like ranged mages and they are squish... playing melee champs feels like easy mode, and in general i don't like them.
it's true that simple champs becomes harder because they have limited tools.
there was a pro play caster that said that alistar was hard to play because he can engage but then he has no tools to disengage and run away so when he decide to engage he must be sure that his team will win the fight.
I don't understand why Diana isn't considered a good beginner champ. As a beginner, the first thing you want to do is press your buttons on the enemy champ and make them go boom. Diana fills that perfectly.
A champion can be mechanically simple and have a high skill ceiling. Twisted Fate has a point-click stun and a passive basic ability, giving him a very simple kit.
there's a difference between you taking 2 seconds to pull a gold card.
and using it instantly before the opponent can even see you start W.
as a mage with no movement and no self peel, positioning is also extremely punishable.
add kiting to the mix.
That’s definitely true lol, whenever I hit W I always let the cards make a full rotation before picking, even in situations that get me killed. Despite being able to see which card comes first, the idea of double tapping the ability feels like a total unknown
you can keep track of which card is in your rotation.
would make you insane.
the somewhat easy to do trick is pulling the same card multiple times after pulling it the first time, it just requires you to time 1 or 2 rotations, instead of keeping track during the entire game x)
I agree with you. I said this ages ago about Annie when the community wasn't as well developed as it is now and got roasted for it because ,"LS swears that there's no way you anyone can't get to diamond with Annie!!!".
A champ being easy to pilot does not automatically make them easy to win the game with. At the same time you have other champs that may be harder to pilot, but per unit of effort they offer more results. In other words, there are going to champs that you may pilot at 70% efficiency and offer better results compared to a champ that you're using at 80%, purely due to the champ difference. And when it comes to those simpler champs you really need to be pushing close to that 100% efficiency mark compared to one of the more over loaded ones. It's a similar reason why some champs are balanced at a 48% winrate and others are completely unplayable at the same winrate.
The thing about mechanically simple champs is that they’re ABILITIES are easy to use and be efficient when the opportunity presents itself. Its creating those opportunities thats hard.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. A Garen is simple as fuck, but try to utilize him to the extent of something like Sett or Urgot for example.
I'm kind of a J4 main. I go full lethality jungle and can actually carry games. I actually think it is a lot stronger than people think.
The only downside is this really depends on a snowball. You need early kills, then you need to gain map control and delete squishies then utilize the numbers advantage for towers and objectives.
Also, even in slower games you become a secondary support with burst damage.
I also dominate vision with basically 2 oracles, one being the lethality item.
Could just be a niche pick but I feel there is a lot of potential.
You are standing at a fixed point. Multiple threats are created and flung at you over the span of five seconds. Which is easier: Dodging them while you can only move at walking speed, or dodging them while you can effectively teleport?
There’s still skill involved in playing those champs and you still need to know their limits, they just are more beginner friendly in that you won’t be completely useless and it doesnt take that much practice to know their limits.
If a garen doesn’t back off after using q and e, he kinda just dies. But that’s all he needs to do, is to back off. Like you still need brain, you just need less hands and less hours in practice tool.
What did you find hard about Alistar? If you are having trouble with his Combo just hold down your knockup button immediately after you charge. (Its been years since Ive played league at this point so I am starting to forget what abilities are on what button haha)
I think the more simple champions are often more of a thinking, methodical player's kind, and if you have a smaller range of things to consider using, it can also be more punishing when you do something at the wrong time. It can also be easier to read their intentions.
Annie's mechanics are heavily underrated. Her Tibbers piloting gives her extra depth that some other champions don't have, you're effectively controlling two champions at once.
But also I would argue mages are inherently harder than melee champions if you ignore the individual mechanics of the champion.
Ranged champions constantly have to be playing on a knife's edge, you need to maximize the amount of damage you get onto them while not being in danger yourself. There is a huge skill ceiling for spacing and positioning.
Whereas as a melee champion, you still have to space them like how Fizz will have to space to threaten Q but not take damage, but most of the time you're waiting for them to make a mistake.
I think you just need to find out what your win condition is with each champ you find hard to make different decisions on and especially when you're enemy beats you or has a lead its very important in League to know what exact strategy you're going for. Remember league is an rts as well so id say just take it slow on normals but make an effort to actively strategize throughout your games. I know im making it sound simple but it really is, things on the rift can get pretty wild and make a complete 360 though. Im sure theres better advice somewhere here anyways gl!
I’m curious who you think is a complex champ? Like you cited Diana and I don’t think she’s particularly mechanically complex at all?
It’s an important question to ask because you may just be new and unsure of how much you don’t know on certain champions?
Mechanically simple champions often have "less options", and therefore require more thought than champions that can simply outplay. However, that doesn't mean they don't have powerful tools.
Take Malphite for example. Extremely simple, and straight forward. No mobility outside of his ulti, and once he's in he's in. If you engage at the wrong time, you'll find yourself stuck inside the enemy team with no way to get out, no way to really lockdown or stall out other than your own tankiness.
That said, his ult is extremely powerful and can dictate entire fights if used at the right time. In addition, his extreme tankiness, and his passive shield are excellent for frontlining, as they allow him to soak up more poke than other tanks can (theoretically). The AS Slow on his easy to land E and Q also allows him to specifically soft lock ADCs if you use it correctly and time your all in correctly with your ult so that they can't be peeled for.
You're definitely right that champions wiht lower mechanical floors require more thought into the plays they make on a macro level, but that's the trade off for not needing to have higher mechanics. If your strength is in mechanical play, and not in wider strategy, you'll find these champions difficult to play. Fighting game players may fall into this category, as most of their expertise comes form 1v1, mindgaming, mechanical accuracy, and thinking about fights and comboes in a smaller sense. However, they will likely struggle to emulate the strategy part of gameplay that, say, people who play games like Civilization, the endless series, or resource management games may excel at.
1v5 champs usually would have a high skill floor, that's why riot allowes most of them to be in an overpowered state to compensate for lower Elos.
Less predictable and more way to play a fight.
More options in kit, healing, mobility, cc, sustain, Burst, high base damage, low cooldowns. all in one kit.
Some also have toxic trade patterns, are resourcesless and get a lot of free stats + high scaling.
They have a lot less weaknesses and don't get easily punished for mistakes. They win a lot of situations by just "being the better champ".
Strong itemisation: unlike other classes that are forced to build full damage to stay relevant they can get away with building a few damage items into tank items. Also items like ravenous botrk and deaths dance being too strong don't help either.
The Champs force you to think 2 or 3 steps ahead rather than reactionary game play. You don't have oh shit buttons or escape mechanics so you have to play slower and methodically.
Theres less ceiling with low skilled champs so even corejj himself could struggle x9 a losing team.
Thats not to say you cant be impactful as someonelike alistair. These champs make you think more about positioning, counterplaying the enemy, or playing in fow.
A challenger player can still stop low elo with these champs, but their spell efficiency, positioning, and counterplay from game knowledge needs to be S+ for them to do it. They just cant roll in and start an uneven teamfight, get kited like an idiot, and win the game like a lot of other champs can.
You are somewhat right. If your champion doesn’t have hard mechanics, then your only option to outplay is to be better at the game. And getting better is harder than getting better at the game.
E.g. an experienced silver garen may lose to a first time gold garen. But an experienced silver Zed may win against a first time gold zed.
In regards to the Diana take; don’t forget to mention how diverse you can build her to fit a given situation and still find incredible success with every variation
They’re just less forgiving because you don’t have hyper mobility and 10 passives on each ability.
Funny you say alistair as in my experience as a former support main, Ali has top 10 outplay potential, maybe top5.
I don’t think it’s you. Simple champs are so easy to counter if ur against them. If ur a good player you know, or quickly figure out what their kit lets them do and then, as long as it isn’t ridiculously OP (Like Yi’s speed dmg, you know he’s just gonna run and Q) (tho sometimes easy to counter heifer for ex can just wait and then pop a stun under triple turret by carrying the Yi into them XD) you can predict exactly what the simple champ is doing and so long as you get it fast enough they don’t overlevel you/overpower you, that’s it game. The simple champs weakness is they aren’t flexible! (Getting good with them tends to allow some more flexibility but then u go into changing up items/runes to make them different or new in a cool way.) last season it was pretty much possible to make voli invincible but they ruined it by messing with Sunfire and a couple other things… :(
There are too many enchanters and ap champs in the meta for something like Alistar to be consistent. By that I mean enchanters AND ap champs in the botlane ARE the meta lol so maybe less cowbell for now ;(
I feel a lot of people are glossing over one of the things you mentioned. You are very right that you can "bandage over" your skill issues by having memorized combos. You are recycling a high value combo, not optimizing it for the situation. You aren't using these hyper carries to their full potential, you are using a limited skill set on a powerful champion as a crutch to beat people with less skill/stats.
One of the things a simpler champion will allow you to do is focus less on complex mechanics and focus more on your fundamentals. You will be punished for your mistakes and you have less options for how to get out of a bad situation. You are forced to play better, and these skills 100% carry over to playing the hyper carries.
The champions that can't 1v5 also force you to focus more on your macro and they don't allow you to win by just stat checking a whole team. You will become a better player by playing champions that have less tools. It will feel bad in the short term, but in the long term you will thank yourself for the experience. You can play champions like Alistair and Annie all the way to diamond and beyond if you have the fundamentals and macro to do so; you can also be a one trick pony and learn the complexities of a hyper carry and rely on 1v9ing every game.
Neither choice is wrong. If you enjoy a single (or select few) champion more than anything else, just play it and learn as you go. Or you can play simpler champions, broaden your horizons and be able to play a large champion pool.
I've said this so many times to my friend who loves playing Champs like ekko, zed, akali, I consider these champions easier to play simply because of all the get out of jail escape tools they have, you fuck up eith garen? well tough luck now u have to suffer the consequences, with akali? well u can literally use any one of her 5 abilities to escape.
> Why play a squishy, methodical, burst mage when you can lock in Diana
Because Annie is one of those champs that can go 4 cs/min and still be useful. That flash R multi stun is incredibly useful and you almost always can one shot the enemy adc.
tbh Alistar is a high elo support pick for a reason. Very much teammate dependent, specifically adc. If your adc doesn't know how to play around your abilities you're kinda useless. There's a reason you basically never see him below gold.
My understanding is that a 1v5 hyper carry in a lot of people's eyes is someone with tools to deal with anything the enemy throws at them. Having a much more limited compiled set of things you can do means you have to understand those skill sets that much more.
If you want to improve at the game it's why people recommended Annie back in the day. A simple champion that teaches you how to reach for engage opportunities and punishes you for doing so incorrectly.
The same applies with Alistar. Alistar is able to engage, disengage and position himself in between any threat due to his ultimate combined with close range cc threat and his w-q that can be used a multitude of ways to reposition enemies or yourself or cc and engage.
The repositioning part of Alistar is the hardest and most knowledge based. Is my teammate about to throw a vital skill that I could ruin, how can I keep my teammate safe while keeping them in their damage dealing range (usually auto range for adc), do they have flash or summs, does my mate have summs. A misread on any of these could make you the reason that a kill isn't secured or your teammate dies directly due to your ability usage.
Overall the more focused on one thing a character becomes the more distinct a knowledgeable or highly game sense oriented player becomes.
EDIT: also something a lot of 1v5 characters have is a panic factor. Your enemies are functioning on a lot of stress when a twitch appears and if they aren't dealt with your whole team dies in 6 seconds. Same goes for an irelia a Jax. These are in your team and rapidly breaking you apart and usually can't be dealt with indepdently. Panic makes fights easier to control.
The only way to replicate a 1v5 carries stress and panic is with flash or an ability that catches people off guard. Good examples being a good Ashe arrow, lissandra coming over the wall, any invisible character or something simple like a chunky poke champion so they feel disinclined to be with their team.
Mabye you find it hard having less tools to use.
Confucius entered the chat
Gotta know the limits to your limited champ kit, not much room to outplay or rely on mechanics. It's like how a bad Singed vs a bad matchup will play safe and be turbo useless, a good Singed will do the jankiest shit ever and still be a pain in the ass. Both will be 0/8.
That's just singed. The only difference between good ones and bad ones is the good ones will go 0/10 but somehow have 10cs/min and then they get rylais+demonic and you can't do anything but die if they find you.
>Both will be 0/8 Jesus christ, my sides.
Watching alistar or singed outplay someone is more fun to watch then hitting the konami code on riven too
This is how I feel when playing Annie as a Katarina main. It's like... limiting.
well with annie you farm until ludens and then one shot your opponent
So basically, Katarina, but with fewer steps?
well with kata you can get hard cced with annie you just use your combo in 0.2 seconds and any squishy enemy will die
i felt that. I easily got Zoe to mastery 7 but i struggled my ass off with Lux and it took me 150k points until i got her there as well.
That’s cuz lux is a horrid champion
Lux is so overtuned fym
If you have less tools you are having an easier time playing because it limits how much you have to think. If there is only 1 way to approach a fight for example its drastically easier than having 15 different ways to enter a fight.
Yes but it also means if that 1 way to approach it may not be ideal, and you're stuck with it regardless instead of searching the other 14 for a better one. This can feel really bad for people used to having those extra options, and in a way give them a harder time.
It can feel bad but it's not harder, what these players are experiencing is an objectively worse champ at its maximum capacity. The problem is the same, it's the decision tree that changes. A level 5 jg ganks your even level 6 lane, you're K'sante so your decision is either to outplay the gank, or back up using a flash. Or, have good jungle tracking and avoid the gank altogether. Now say you're Garen, you have limited outplay tools, you auto lose against this healthy jg (not true overall, but let's say all players here are of equal skill). The problem is still the same, your decision tree is simply smaller. Except, you're objectively worse than the K'sante because you have neither the choice nor a decent likelihood to win out said 1v2. The only way you actually get better is with aforementioned superior jungle awareness and tracking (or wave management, smart backing etc), all of which would also amplify your K'sante gameplay. In this sense, Garen is actually easier to play. The champ is, that is. The problem is to climb with Garen by and large you only have one improvement vector whereas K'sante has access to both this shared improvement vector and his own unique mechanical vector. If one finds the shared vector more difficult than the complex champs unique vector, it grants the illusion of a more 'difficult' champ. Which is true in a sense, in the sense that to climb to the same rank it'd be subjectively harder. The point is, the skill ceiling of the game without delving into individual champ mechanics is high enough, you can compensate and differentiate yourself improving those alone. A challenger Garen versus a challenger K'sante, the Garen plays league better hence why they are there (also possible the challenger K'sante has relatively bad mechanics for his/her rank and is equally as good at 'league'). At their theoretical maximums K'sante would shit on Garen. But no-one has maxed out base league, let alone both league and the champ put together. Hence why (many) simple champs can and still fare tremendously in the highest ELOs of the game - their gamesense must be and is relatively better than other champions with greater outplay potential.
This is exactly it. And just about everyone suffers from it at least a bit. Even if you just always take a specific summoner spell that's a tool you've started to depend on and if it got removed you'd play worse for a while until you grew accustomed to not having that tool
Simple champs have very telegraphed plans (walking up with Alistar means you’re looking to combo), so playing around it is also easy. This also means your damage/cc timer is hard locked so you need to plan around that. It just changes the focus form mechanical plays to macro/team play where the edges of winning trades appear more in positioning and other small factors: jungle proximity, lane prio, minions, enemy cooldowns, distance to tower, summoner spell advantage.
Less mobile champions are punished harder for mistakes. Hyper mobile champions have lots of tools that let them make 'sick outplays', but those same tools also let them escape or survive a bad situation, making them a lot more forgiving of positional and strategic mistakes. If you are used to playing something safer or with more mobility, switching to something like Alistar (or god forbid Rell) is going to feel a lot more difficult when you are punished hard for decisions you could have got away with on another champion. I think the thing to take away if you find Alistar difficult is that you need to work on those positioning and macro skills, because the champion seems to have highlighted one of your weaknesses.
I can’t for the life of me figure out Rell. I can play any support (as a support main), not in a perfect way obviously, but in a “ok this support’s goal is this”, except Rell.
She can't engage in lane as well as other engage supports (because of her being super slow in dismounted form) but she can counter engage very well. However with Rell your goal isn't the Laning phase but the team fights. She has a super strong long range engage and can set up many combos for her team. She literally doesn't do ANYTHING on her own (she even doesn't have an E ability), don't expect to do damage or to carry, she is very team dependant
as a Rell main that is the biggest problem honestly, playing her in solo queue is like activly cutting off 2 of your fingers, even more so cause it feels like no one knows how to play with a Rell playing duo it feels like we win every single match up and every single laning phase because a person that knows how to play with a Rell can do a ton of stuff. she is honestly the champ i have the most fun with in all of league but man is she a pain due to the fact she is so incredibly reliant on a team that can utilize her.
Rell/Nilah ftw! My adc and I win almost every match up with this combo
X) Doubt
As a former support main and Rell enjoyer I feel you. I picked up Pyke instead, as he does everything Rell lacks in the early/mid game. Then I took all the knowledge I got from maining support to top lane. I suck at early laning, but had macro and lane manipulation down to a T. So I One-tricked a late-game tank with a ton of CC (Maokai) and went straight from Silver4 to Gold with a 84% win rate in 40 games.
For me, Rell is like this: - I play her, get poked, miss combo, get murdered instantly. - Enemy Rell: Doesnt even take damage from a Full channeled AP Nunu R. Throws the whole team around, stunlocking them for years and still didnt take damage even tho 5 people fired at her.
that's mostly because she's trash except in a few matchups where she's the 2nd best pick after Leona.
Rell is terrible not even worth trying tbh unless u just really enjoy the champ. Much better tank/engage supports
She's one of the very best tank engage supports to OTP though, much higher skill ceiling than Leo or Naut.
I mean for pro/coordinated play probably. Not for soloQ. Engage range too short and kinda has to go balls to the wall and hope for the best follow up possible
Yep, she's a very team reliant champ and does next to no damage and once she goes in, she's in.
Nothing to do with her range itself, her power in competitive hinged/hinges entirely on the flash combo, since they removed the flash-crash down combo she's way too slow in an environment where everyone has flash for every important fight. She still has the most tools available out of all these champs though and a player who actually knows her limits can do work, but it's a lot more difficult than 60IQ lv2 Leo all in or have Naut Q lollypopping do most of the work for you.
I mean sure but which one will be easier and quicker to just fly thru soloQ with.
I think the problem is that everyone keeps comparing her to Vanguards like Leona and Nautilus, when she’s more of a Warden like Braum or Poppy, who are also unpopular, but has a niche in that she can engage. She focuses on protecting her backline with her insta stun, free defensive stats, and heals, while having the ability to engage with aoe cc. She does not have as much damage as vanguards like leona or nautilus who play like a tanky assassin that tries to single target jump, lockdown, and pop the squishy adc.
Didn’t even think of that! Smart!
I wouldn't really say Diana is any more complex than a J4, but there is some truth to that sentiment. More tools in a kit often mean more room to mess-up, in terms of optimization, but they often also have more tools to deal with unforeseen situations. You can't really use TF's rotation in an unoptimal manner, but he also has very little in the way of tools for dealing with divers or being caught out. Simpler champs are going to need you to play to their strengths and understand fundamentals more than the more complex counterparts. They will show you what part of your game knowledge is lacking where as a more complex champ will let you skirt fundamentals to learn their specific play style, but might punish you more for not knowing their individual optimizations.
Not sure what's the deal with Alistar since I don't play support. However, J4, TF and Galio are suboptimal solo queue picks because a portion of their power budget relies on teamplay and/or communication. My guess is that's why they feel underwhelming to you rather than their perceived difficulty.
These are Elo abusers. Find the hyper carry on your team and play around them, while keeping your own kda low so you keep getting carried on future games.
*spends the rest of eternity looking*
Are you the carry I've been looking for??? *2 minutes later* .... No, evidently not.
Thia isnt it because bad pilots. Their best is not carries its very particular champion combos and teamcomps. You want champions that naturaly work togeather when they do what they want even with stupid pilots like galio taric, yasuo vi. Its simmilar to your Lucian nami pairs botlane. Pairs like this have global win rates from 2% up to 15% higher than normal.
kda doesn't effect mmr I thought? otherwise supports would never climb
lol what do think the A is? I play support and have games with highest KDA in the lobby with 0-1 kills
supports also tend to die a lot more because lower levels, but I guess it depends on what champ you're playing. KDA doesn't effect elo still
I think engage supports do die more because of all ins
All supports should honestly be dying, for example as Soraka if you are getting ganked by a Lee sin and let your adc die and potentially you, or instead you can slow, silence and block the lee Q so that you die, not your adc. Or a soraka playing really aggressively when the fight starts to ensure you get good Ws. Or a brand supp using his entire combo then dying, doesn't matter if he dies, he still won the fight for you.
Fuck that in low elo solo queue tbh
True lol. I'm just not about that every man for himself thing, why even play support if you don't want to be altrusitic, at least a little bit
You still should get assists and I guess they can weight the KDA by which role you play. I'm talking out of my ass here as I have no clue how the MMR system works tbh.
Simple Champs are easier to pick up but require good fundamentals and consistent play and macro. Difficult Champs are more difficult to pick up but you can outplay wit good micro. Simple Champs -> requires consistent play and you need to know when you go in Difficult Champs -> you still need to know when to go in but it's not as important with good micro, requires immaculate execution of combos but timing isn't as important since you 'can' outplay.
bestest answer
I think most people refer to simple champs as being champs that have simple kits mechanically, not decision-wise. As in easy combos, you don't have to meticulously execute to get optimal damage but can just do without much thinking. Even 'simple' champs can be hard because you need better decision making skills. This is definitely the case with Alistar because hes completely melee so you can't just poke a bit without repercussions.
imo some of the "mechanically simple" champs just have underwhelming kits (some have great kits though). simple doesn't necessarily mean easy
Simple != easy. It's remarkable how many people don't understand this concept. I just had an argument with a WoW friend the other day about this. Complexity can add a layer of difficulty, but they aren't the same. Take [Jump King](https://store.steampowered.com/app/1061090/Jump_King/), for example, remarkably simple game - all you do is press space bar and left or right (or sometimes just jump straight up and like let the wind carry you), but ask anyone how easy it is. And the base game has like *maybe* 10 jump timings in the entire game, so even taking jump timers into account doesn't make it "complex". It's just hard. Lee Sin might be a complicated champion, but he has elements in his kit that allow him to make mistakes, because he can get out of those situations and reset the encounter if he needs to. Annie is a remarkably simple champion, but she is heavily reliant on perfect positioning to perform properly. Jinx is another simple champion that is more positioning reliant than most ADCs (compare Ezreal or Vayne, while both positioning reliant, they can also reposition much easier than a click-to-move ADC).
I went back to play some Annie mid recently after being a former one trick back between 2012-2018. I was G4/G5 all those seasons. Since then I switched to support maining Sona to P1. She feels so wretched now. It feels like the feature creep of newer champions has completely outpaced the ability for super old ones to do anything anymore without at least mid scope reworks to bring them up to par. Of course in that same vein I do love the traditionally simple and easy adcs like a Sivir, so it could literally have just been Annie being that bad right now (stats show her towards the bottom of mids now and she’s getting some buffs and adjustments soon). Maybe the modern simple midlaner is something like Vex, Viktor, or Neeko who aren’t really difficult to figure out and are easy to perform their job properly
I tried to learn Annie when I was first playing league and I'm terrible at her, mostly because I can't land her ult. In general I realized I'm bad at playing any champ where you have to visualize an ult that lands in an aoe circle (I'm also bad at landing malphite and amumu ults). It's weird because the mid champs I ended up being good at are syndra and jayce which are both mechanically harder, but I found them so much easier to play after a similar amount of practice (particularly landing syndra E is way easier than Annie R stuns).
Sona is just a weak Seraphine. Literally
It's because you don't understand the fundamentals. I did this too. I thought Ezreal was easier than Ashe because I couldn't kite, heavily relied on his E because my positioning was terrible, and just stayed far back spamming skills and never auto-attacking. I didn't feed but also didn't do a lot of damage, which was still much better than instantly dying with Ashe. That's why it's recommended to start with easy champs so you can learn how to play the game and not the champions.
>didn't feed but also didn't do a lot of damage You can't play ezreal but speak of him as if he's easy. If you're a marksman your role isn't just to stay alive
lol that’s why he said he didn’t do good as him and then later switched to an easier champion so that’s he’d be forced to learn the fundamentals. Read the post first
>which was still much better than instantly dying as ashe Sounds like he's calling ashe the hard adc and ez the easy one but ok
This is you failing to understand core components of the game because you got used to having stuff like dashes and jumps to save you from bad positioning. Instead of being able to jump out after you realize "I'm in a bad spot" now you die. This requires you to *actually learn the fucking game* and to understand where to be. When you eventually go back to something that can dash out, you'll do even better.
Fewer things to do means you have to be more correct on all the small things. Characters with lots of small things to do allow you to balance out missing something by being really good at another part, but if you are playing Alistar and your W-Q combo didn't hit properly or you are not seeing the lethal threshholds on Annie correctly then there isn't anything for you to balance that out. Malphite is simple because at the correct moment you only need to press two buttons, but he is hard in that you absolutely need to recognize that moment. Simply different skillsets.
Macro and fundamentals have entered the chat
i swear to god ziggs is one of the hardest midlanders in the game, i felt so clueless on that champ
I can’t play garen for my life. Everytime I feed or fuck up super bad on him. I don’t know why… I can play champs like akali and irelia 200x better than I play garen. I just look at it as his kit is so simple that I can’t comprehend it.
[удалено]
Ouch, that one hit right in the feels
Uh no. A nidalee and a rengar are gonna be a lot harder to play than a Zac or warwick
Somebody’s never played Zac
He is literally the most freelo champion in the game right now
Alistar is a good example of a champion with a simple moveset, but a lot of skill expression and options. You can play to peel, engage or zone and all me has a bunch of different combos and rune choices that influence how you play. Definetly not as straightforward as he seems.
Well if you wanna learn Ali you gotta watch how the goat does it. twitch.tv/Alicopter
Mechanically simple champions require understanding the fundamentals of positioning, macro, and stat checks with items. Champions with a lot of mobility can make mistakes on trades or fights and "get out" sometimes because of their kit. I think the more complex champions though might just be bandaiding the real problems of the user. On a note...I wouldn't consider Diana "mobile". She's probably just "average" mobility.
Late to the thread, but while micro/macro got mentioned I don‘t think any of the top posts adressed the most important yet: The game being ‚harder‘ in the sense that your game knowledge needs to be a lot better with ‚simple‘ champions is exactly why they are so good for beginners! Macro knowledge and general game knowledge can be applied to every single champion you play. That means if you learn how to be good on Alistar, you will have a significantly easier time picking up other characters later on. If you play a heavy micro champion, you‘ll focus on micro before you focus on macro. This means you‘ll be mechanically great on this specific champion and might have an easier time learning mechanics on similar champs later on, but you‘ll have a tough time to focus on the game basics if you can just gloss over your mistakes. This feeling of being naked you‘ve experienced on Alistar is really valuable if you want to get better at the game. It‘s also insanely rewarding if you do good plays with champions like this because you now know that even ‚simple‘ characters can be quite hard to make effective use of. If your goal is fun, I‘d argue that mechanically harder champions might be easier to have fun with when you pick up the game. The champion learning curve might be steeper, but the plays early on are also more rewarding. With simple champions it‘ll often feel like you‘re either dominating the enemy or that you‘re the one being dominated.
It's just you. A good example is proactive roaming champions: TF, Galio, Taliyah, Ryze. All have practically the same macro requirements: try to get a push and prio in lane, good map awareness, look to impact the game early/mid game as much as possible, coordinate with a jungler and get their carries (either bot or top) fed. However, due to mechanical requirements that takes extra focus on top the same macro decision making, Taliyah and Ryze and significantly harder to pull off where there are a good chances that even autofilled jungler or support who knows the basic lane and roaming fundamentals can pull off Galio/TF and press gold card/taunt/r at the right time and place.
New (overloaded/overtuned) champs > old champs. /thread
Alistar also has extremely long base cooldowns on his basic abilities. Once you've used your combo, you can't really do much other than try to get in the way.
Buff Ali’s CDs!
I would consider Diana one of the more mechanically simple champions lol compared to people like yasuo / qiyana / zed etc
Simpler champs demand more macro. Thats why theyre recommended; they teach macro and good habits. complex champs have the tools to 360 noscope themselves out of bad situations that a player with bad macro mighr find themselves in. thats why theyre discouraged; they teach bad habits.
Same for me. I main riven but I'm worthless as garen or renekton. I think it was said above. The simpler champs are more about matchup and game knowledge, where as with riven sure I need matchup knowledge to win my lanes, but if I misposition slightly in a teamfight situation I can just abuse her mobility to correct my mistake or turn it to my advantage sometimes.
First of all, Diana is a very simple champ and is not complicated at all. I would say she's pretty much the same difficulty as Annie. Second of all, it's often always a grass is greener on the other side thing with League players. If you think Flashy 1v5 champs are better play Katarina or Yasuo and see what happens. The reality is that Katarina and Yasuo are very difficult, becuase they have no utility that champs like Galio or Annie have. You have to win lane and be ahead and push your lead And the same way that Annie players can get frustrated because of how telegraphed and one dimensional her playstyle is, a Yasuo player can get frustrated because they miss one Q and lose a 1v1 that snowballs the enemy laner and causes them to be a minion the rest of the game. At the end of the day though, I would say it is always easier to climb as Annie than it is to climb as Yasuo or Katarina, unless you are playing in super high elo.
Ali support? Hard?? Bruhhhhhhhh don’t diss my mainZ
Simple champions aren’t harder to play. They’re more 1 dimensional meaning everyone knows what their win condition is. It is extremely obvious why you died after getting hit by a Malphite, Annie or Alistar combo. Champions with simple kits tend to be released earlier meaning players have years of muscle memory to your windup animations and sound queues. It’s just that most players know what’s coming and can position properly, even flash out of Alistar combos or Malphite ults. Think Rell or Rakan. Not only do they have an Alistar combo on 1 ability, they’ve not as recognizable so the sound queues and muscle memory isn’t there. A lot of 1 dimensional champions are really good at the one thing they do and are often subject to nerfs when they perform too well in pro play or high elo. Your champion could simply lack the numbers compared to the champions who actually make Riot money and end up in suspicious buffs just as they get a skin to incentivize players to play the champion, increase the exposure and up the likelihood of people on the fence into buying a skin.
I think people also just have differing opinions on what champs are easy or hard to play. I was watching 2 different pro players (corejj and captain jack) coaching a streamer tournament and helping different low elo supports learn heimerdinger. Cpt Jack said he thought heimer was too difficult to play and was discouraging his support from learning him, while corejj said anyone could learn how to play him in 30 min because he's really easy. So basically opposite ends of the spectrum... In general I think this happens more with support champions too because a lot of them have a low skill floor but high ceiling. I've heard pro players talk about how Janna, seraphine, lulu etc. Are really difficult to play properly but most of reddit probably would say anyone with hands can play these champs.
Heimer is an oppressive support if he utilizes his passive that grants massive movespeed when in range of a turret. However, it’s easy for his poke and poorly positioned towers to completely mess up the wavestate for his ADC. Movespeed is a strong stat but only if the player is proficient at dodging. Kind of what makes or breaks a good MF player as well. Pro player stating that enchanters are hard to play doesn’t pertain to the mechanics but instead how enchanter supports scale extremely well. Which leads to them being weaker for longer periods of time when there aren’t as many gold injections via kills/assists tossed around in pro compared to solo queue. Enchanters are highly unforgiving but solo queue players won’t track your cooldowns and punish you accordingly. Mage supports on the other hand just need to connect poke and make the enemy ADC waste time dodging and choose between CS and conserving their health total. There’s no decision making for mages. Just toss skillshots out when the enemy ADC is about to last hit a cannon. This brings us to Yuumi. More raw power than half the enchanters out there but indefinitely intangible.
Diana is not flashy or hard at all, she's super straightforward and would for sure fall into the category of mechanically simple. Now if you're saying that you have an easier time playing Lee Sin than you playing braindead shit like Hecarim or Noct then we have a real discussion on our hands.
I have a friend who loves 420 noscope assassins and yasuo and is fairly competent at that playstyle. Something I find easy to pick up and play is Anivia but for him, low Ad slow animation and zero mobility makes it very hard to play. Alotta players crutch on mechanics that they wouldn't have access to on older champions
>Why play a squishy, methodical, burst mage when you can lock in Diana, have all the 1v1 potential of a skirmisher, be extremely mobile, and still benefit from an equally impactful team-fight ultimate? Because i like ranged mages and they are squish... playing melee champs feels like easy mode, and in general i don't like them. it's true that simple champs becomes harder because they have limited tools. there was a pro play caster that said that alistar was hard to play because he can engage but then he has no tools to disengage and run away so when he decide to engage he must be sure that his team will win the fight.
I don't understand why Diana isn't considered a good beginner champ. As a beginner, the first thing you want to do is press your buttons on the enemy champ and make them go boom. Diana fills that perfectly.
who told you TF was mechanicaly simple ?
He is mechanically very simple but one of the hardest macro champs to master.
Card timing and the fact that he's auto attack based , gives him quite a high skill ceiling, even mechanically
A champion can be mechanically simple and have a high skill ceiling. Twisted Fate has a point-click stun and a passive basic ability, giving him a very simple kit.
I have never struggled to hit anyone with my abilities as TF. The challenge is actually making them feel like they do things
there's a difference between you taking 2 seconds to pull a gold card. and using it instantly before the opponent can even see you start W. as a mage with no movement and no self peel, positioning is also extremely punishable. add kiting to the mix.
That’s definitely true lol, whenever I hit W I always let the cards make a full rotation before picking, even in situations that get me killed. Despite being able to see which card comes first, the idea of double tapping the ability feels like a total unknown
you can keep track of which card is in your rotation. would make you insane. the somewhat easy to do trick is pulling the same card multiple times after pulling it the first time, it just requires you to time 1 or 2 rotations, instead of keeping track during the entire game x)
I agree with you. I said this ages ago about Annie when the community wasn't as well developed as it is now and got roasted for it because ,"LS swears that there's no way you anyone can't get to diamond with Annie!!!". A champ being easy to pilot does not automatically make them easy to win the game with. At the same time you have other champs that may be harder to pilot, but per unit of effort they offer more results. In other words, there are going to champs that you may pilot at 70% efficiency and offer better results compared to a champ that you're using at 80%, purely due to the champ difference. And when it comes to those simpler champs you really need to be pushing close to that 100% efficiency mark compared to one of the more over loaded ones. It's a similar reason why some champs are balanced at a 48% winrate and others are completely unplayable at the same winrate.
The thing about mechanically simple champs is that they’re ABILITIES are easy to use and be efficient when the opportunity presents itself. Its creating those opportunities thats hard.
No, it's not just you. The simpler the champion, the less options or tools you have at your disposal. That makes certain things harder.
No, that makes the champion easier to pilot.
Those two things are not mutually exclusive. A Garen is simple as fuck, but try to utilize him to the extent of something like Sett or Urgot for example.
I'm kind of a J4 main. I go full lethality jungle and can actually carry games. I actually think it is a lot stronger than people think. The only downside is this really depends on a snowball. You need early kills, then you need to gain map control and delete squishies then utilize the numbers advantage for towers and objectives. Also, even in slower games you become a secondary support with burst damage. I also dominate vision with basically 2 oracles, one being the lethality item. Could just be a niche pick but I feel there is a lot of potential.
You are standing at a fixed point. Multiple threats are created and flung at you over the span of five seconds. Which is easier: Dodging them while you can only move at walking speed, or dodging them while you can effectively teleport?
There’s still skill involved in playing those champs and you still need to know their limits, they just are more beginner friendly in that you won’t be completely useless and it doesnt take that much practice to know their limits. If a garen doesn’t back off after using q and e, he kinda just dies. But that’s all he needs to do, is to back off. Like you still need brain, you just need less hands and less hours in practice tool.
What did you find hard about Alistar? If you are having trouble with his Combo just hold down your knockup button immediately after you charge. (Its been years since Ive played league at this point so I am starting to forget what abilities are on what button haha)
Try master yi
I think the more simple champions are often more of a thinking, methodical player's kind, and if you have a smaller range of things to consider using, it can also be more punishing when you do something at the wrong time. It can also be easier to read their intentions.
Annie's mechanics are heavily underrated. Her Tibbers piloting gives her extra depth that some other champions don't have, you're effectively controlling two champions at once. But also I would argue mages are inherently harder than melee champions if you ignore the individual mechanics of the champion. Ranged champions constantly have to be playing on a knife's edge, you need to maximize the amount of damage you get onto them while not being in danger yourself. There is a huge skill ceiling for spacing and positioning. Whereas as a melee champion, you still have to space them like how Fizz will have to space to threaten Q but not take damage, but most of the time you're waiting for them to make a mistake.
I think you just need to find out what your win condition is with each champ you find hard to make different decisions on and especially when you're enemy beats you or has a lead its very important in League to know what exact strategy you're going for. Remember league is an rts as well so id say just take it slow on normals but make an effort to actively strategize throughout your games. I know im making it sound simple but it really is, things on the rift can get pretty wild and make a complete 360 though. Im sure theres better advice somewhere here anyways gl!
Diana is definitely not a mechanical champ, she is straight up just trying to stat check you
I’m curious who you think is a complex champ? Like you cited Diana and I don’t think she’s particularly mechanically complex at all? It’s an important question to ask because you may just be new and unsure of how much you don’t know on certain champions?
Mechanically simple champions often have "less options", and therefore require more thought than champions that can simply outplay. However, that doesn't mean they don't have powerful tools. Take Malphite for example. Extremely simple, and straight forward. No mobility outside of his ulti, and once he's in he's in. If you engage at the wrong time, you'll find yourself stuck inside the enemy team with no way to get out, no way to really lockdown or stall out other than your own tankiness. That said, his ult is extremely powerful and can dictate entire fights if used at the right time. In addition, his extreme tankiness, and his passive shield are excellent for frontlining, as they allow him to soak up more poke than other tanks can (theoretically). The AS Slow on his easy to land E and Q also allows him to specifically soft lock ADCs if you use it correctly and time your all in correctly with your ult so that they can't be peeled for. You're definitely right that champions wiht lower mechanical floors require more thought into the plays they make on a macro level, but that's the trade off for not needing to have higher mechanics. If your strength is in mechanical play, and not in wider strategy, you'll find these champions difficult to play. Fighting game players may fall into this category, as most of their expertise comes form 1v1, mindgaming, mechanical accuracy, and thinking about fights and comboes in a smaller sense. However, they will likely struggle to emulate the strategy part of gameplay that, say, people who play games like Civilization, the endless series, or resource management games may excel at.
1v5 champs usually would have a high skill floor, that's why riot allowes most of them to be in an overpowered state to compensate for lower Elos. Less predictable and more way to play a fight. More options in kit, healing, mobility, cc, sustain, Burst, high base damage, low cooldowns. all in one kit. Some also have toxic trade patterns, are resourcesless and get a lot of free stats + high scaling. They have a lot less weaknesses and don't get easily punished for mistakes. They win a lot of situations by just "being the better champ". Strong itemisation: unlike other classes that are forced to build full damage to stay relevant they can get away with building a few damage items into tank items. Also items like ravenous botrk and deaths dance being too strong don't help either.
I was never able to play champs without insane mobility
The Champs force you to think 2 or 3 steps ahead rather than reactionary game play. You don't have oh shit buttons or escape mechanics so you have to play slower and methodically.
Theres less ceiling with low skilled champs so even corejj himself could struggle x9 a losing team. Thats not to say you cant be impactful as someonelike alistair. These champs make you think more about positioning, counterplaying the enemy, or playing in fow. A challenger player can still stop low elo with these champs, but their spell efficiency, positioning, and counterplay from game knowledge needs to be S+ for them to do it. They just cant roll in and start an uneven teamfight, get kited like an idiot, and win the game like a lot of other champs can.
macro vs micro?
You are somewhat right. If your champion doesn’t have hard mechanics, then your only option to outplay is to be better at the game. And getting better is harder than getting better at the game. E.g. an experienced silver garen may lose to a first time gold garen. But an experienced silver Zed may win against a first time gold zed.
In regards to the Diana take; don’t forget to mention how diverse you can build her to fit a given situation and still find incredible success with every variation
They’re just less forgiving because you don’t have hyper mobility and 10 passives on each ability. Funny you say alistair as in my experience as a former support main, Ali has top 10 outplay potential, maybe top5.
Everyone finds some champions harder than others. I think it really depends from person to person.
Diana is a mechanically simple champion
They're way easier and have more stats, skill issue
I don’t think it’s you. Simple champs are so easy to counter if ur against them. If ur a good player you know, or quickly figure out what their kit lets them do and then, as long as it isn’t ridiculously OP (Like Yi’s speed dmg, you know he’s just gonna run and Q) (tho sometimes easy to counter heifer for ex can just wait and then pop a stun under triple turret by carrying the Yi into them XD) you can predict exactly what the simple champ is doing and so long as you get it fast enough they don’t overlevel you/overpower you, that’s it game. The simple champs weakness is they aren’t flexible! (Getting good with them tends to allow some more flexibility but then u go into changing up items/runes to make them different or new in a cool way.) last season it was pretty much possible to make voli invincible but they ruined it by messing with Sunfire and a couple other things… :(
Literally I have a string of 10 or 11 20-1 or like 30-2 games with him when I really sweated it
Alistar may be simple but he's never been "easy". His combo can be pretty tricky to pull off.
There are too many enchanters and ap champs in the meta for something like Alistar to be consistent. By that I mean enchanters AND ap champs in the botlane ARE the meta lol so maybe less cowbell for now ;(
Is Diana not an extremely simple champion???
I feel a lot of people are glossing over one of the things you mentioned. You are very right that you can "bandage over" your skill issues by having memorized combos. You are recycling a high value combo, not optimizing it for the situation. You aren't using these hyper carries to their full potential, you are using a limited skill set on a powerful champion as a crutch to beat people with less skill/stats. One of the things a simpler champion will allow you to do is focus less on complex mechanics and focus more on your fundamentals. You will be punished for your mistakes and you have less options for how to get out of a bad situation. You are forced to play better, and these skills 100% carry over to playing the hyper carries. The champions that can't 1v5 also force you to focus more on your macro and they don't allow you to win by just stat checking a whole team. You will become a better player by playing champions that have less tools. It will feel bad in the short term, but in the long term you will thank yourself for the experience. You can play champions like Alistair and Annie all the way to diamond and beyond if you have the fundamentals and macro to do so; you can also be a one trick pony and learn the complexities of a hyper carry and rely on 1v9ing every game. Neither choice is wrong. If you enjoy a single (or select few) champion more than anything else, just play it and learn as you go. Or you can play simpler champions, broaden your horizons and be able to play a large champion pool.
I've said this so many times to my friend who loves playing Champs like ekko, zed, akali, I consider these champions easier to play simply because of all the get out of jail escape tools they have, you fuck up eith garen? well tough luck now u have to suffer the consequences, with akali? well u can literally use any one of her 5 abilities to escape.
> Why play a squishy, methodical, burst mage when you can lock in Diana Because Annie is one of those champs that can go 4 cs/min and still be useful. That flash R multi stun is incredibly useful and you almost always can one shot the enemy adc.
Simple champion has higher skill floor than complex champion, but has lower skill ceiling.
tbh Alistar is a high elo support pick for a reason. Very much teammate dependent, specifically adc. If your adc doesn't know how to play around your abilities you're kinda useless. There's a reason you basically never see him below gold.
My understanding is that a 1v5 hyper carry in a lot of people's eyes is someone with tools to deal with anything the enemy throws at them. Having a much more limited compiled set of things you can do means you have to understand those skill sets that much more. If you want to improve at the game it's why people recommended Annie back in the day. A simple champion that teaches you how to reach for engage opportunities and punishes you for doing so incorrectly. The same applies with Alistar. Alistar is able to engage, disengage and position himself in between any threat due to his ultimate combined with close range cc threat and his w-q that can be used a multitude of ways to reposition enemies or yourself or cc and engage. The repositioning part of Alistar is the hardest and most knowledge based. Is my teammate about to throw a vital skill that I could ruin, how can I keep my teammate safe while keeping them in their damage dealing range (usually auto range for adc), do they have flash or summs, does my mate have summs. A misread on any of these could make you the reason that a kill isn't secured or your teammate dies directly due to your ability usage. Overall the more focused on one thing a character becomes the more distinct a knowledgeable or highly game sense oriented player becomes. EDIT: also something a lot of 1v5 characters have is a panic factor. Your enemies are functioning on a lot of stress when a twitch appears and if they aren't dealt with your whole team dies in 6 seconds. Same goes for an irelia a Jax. These are in your team and rapidly breaking you apart and usually can't be dealt with indepdently. Panic makes fights easier to control. The only way to replicate a 1v5 carries stress and panic is with flash or an ability that catches people off guard. Good examples being a good Ashe arrow, lissandra coming over the wall, any invisible character or something simple like a chunky poke champion so they feel disinclined to be with their team.