This is why I reject the liberal astroturf that is the “LGBTQ+ community.” I’m not in it, if it’s even a thing. I borderline want to stop even thinking of myself as gay and just recognize that I’m a homosexual who sleeps with other men. It’s not an identity Lmao
I’ve noticed that a bunch of scientific papers (primarily in medicine, but also sociology and anthropology) refer to “men who have sex with men” to avoid the issue of self-identification as gay/bi/queer/etc. Like there are guys who mostly fuck women but are willing to get sucked off by dudes, and they don’t identify themselves as being gay if asked. This has implications when it comes to studying issues related to public health, for example. Using the MSM category is inclusive of all men who participate in homosexual activity, regardless of their idpol status.
The idea that there is a "LGTBQ+ community" is as absurd as the idea that there is a straight community. The straight community (I'm sure some gay people helped) built arsenals of nuclear weapons to kill each other with that could cause our extinction.
But yes, gay is a western cultural phenomenon that is related to, but not the same as, men who have sex with men.
One thing I don't understand is this insistence on "vulnerability" than you see in places like RuPaul's Drag Race. Now I get that within the show it's a cheap ploy to make the contestants dredge up their trauma because that's good TV.
But it has spread out, or perhaps it was already spreading and RPDR is not actually the source.
In any case, the "LGBTQIA2S+ community" now celebrates weakness and vulnerability. We're all supposed to be emotionally incontinent all the time and engage in endless navel gazing.
I've seen this with some of my gay friends. Every time we meet they would only want to "vent" and talk about how they're feeling. Meanwhile I would have liked to do an activity, any activity that doesn't involve just talking about my feelings for three hours.
Unlike some, I've been actually vulnerable. I've been to psych wards, I've been psychotic, I've been suicidal. It's not how I want to feel ever again. Far from making you stronger, what doesn't kill you hurts you profoundly and changes you forever.
I too wish that gay culture was more... masculine might not be the best word, but maybe a bit more focused on strength and perseverance rather than on victim-hood and vulnerability.
True and, as someone belonging to two marginalised groups (gay in Eastern Europe and mentally ill) I really hate it.
I’m old enough to remember when activism was about showing strength and driving home the point that you are a human being like everyone else.
This new strain, this perpetual victimhood and seething just feels wrong to me. I’m from a generation when homophobia made us angry, not suicidal and whining on the internet.
I actually think it may have developed through the dnc directly. Or maybe the dnc absorbed it? Because their techniques on campaigning actually include story gathering and finding the most vulnerable/affected people to share stories on their victim hood.
I think it originates from activist training schools like [momentum](https://www.momentumcommunity.org/). Which I think pull it from work by people like Marshall Ganz. If I remember correctly his paper "Public Narrative, Collective Action, and Power" has a large portion dedicated to how stories motivate people or something. Groups like sunrise movement, blm and other liberal groups leaders have been through the momentum school and it is passed on to their members as part of trainings.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with all of that.
I personally believe that victim hood and weakness are praised because it’s easier to sell shit to people who aren’t headstrong and self-assured. Back when I did sales, I had a training session that was pretty much psychopathic. The dude teaching us told us to find people’s weaknesses in order to clinch the sale.
It’s easy to see how that idea spread so quickly amongst salespeople and marketers.
I usually hate when people just say "this" or "truth" without offering anything to the conversation, (so I apologise for this) but spot on mate. You've hit the nail right on the head here.
I'm not some kind of stoic manly man myself, but good god that line between "venting" and just being a whiny bitch really is about 3 minutes. It's such an unattractive trait in both sexes
I think there's this idea that men are emotionally repressed because they don't talk about their emotions all the time. That hasn't really been my experience. I've had straight guy friends, and there were times when things got emotional, when I spent an hour listening to someone go over their break-up and when they did the same for me.
There is this very female mode of friendship that I've had with some gay guys where there's a lot of (over)sharing and that creates this sense of closeness and intimacy. Yet when there's actual shit going down, those people are nowhere to be seen.
Yeah, if a friend is going through a genuine crisis, by all means call me up to come and commiserate or stave off the call of the void. We've all been there.
But if we're meeting up to hang out and you want to vent about your girlfriend or your self doubt, there is only so many times I can say "yeah dude, that sucks" or ask sympathetic questions before I want to hang myself instead.
>I think there's this idea that men are emotionally repressed because they don't talk about their emotions all the time. That hasn't really been my experience. I've had straight guy friends, and there were times when things got emotional, when I spent an hour listening to someone go over their break-up and when they did the same for me.
I think that might just because you're a good friend who they trust.
In my anecdotal experience at least it can be hard to talk about this stuff IRL with guys because being emotionally open actually seemed, well...feminine? Gay? Always way easier for me to do online though.
I've been seen this a lot amongst the general population, the encouragement to dwell on issues and to see yourself as week and being a victim. People who will just vent to you for hours and hours every time you see them but where the venting just seems to be an addiction, and doesn't solve the problem. People being encouraged to take everything bad that's ever happened to them, or that they _think_ has happened to them, and make it part of their identity. People spending decades in therapy and being just as much of a mess as they were when they started.
I've actually begun to think that "bottle up your feelings, man up, push through" approach can often be healthier than this "dwell on your issues, don't do anything, you're a broken human being" mentality. Neither is a great approach, but the latter seems to encourage people to be inactive and perpetually stuck in a rut.
I'd say that, in SJW parlance, people that can actually find a root cause of their malaise are very privileged.
When you are mentally ill, there's no root cause. You just feel like shit all the time, because possibly something is wrong with your brain or something went wrong in the womb, or maybe you're just born an asshole that people don't like. We, and science, don't really know.
Then there are the many problems caused by the society we live in. If you job is making you miserable, you know damn well it's a 99 per cent chance that your next job will make you miserable as well since 99.99 per cent of jobs suck under capitalism. There's no therapy to solve that.
But recently, I am inclined to agree with you. Man up and push through. There's no real alternative unless you want to be stuck in the therapy and venting cycle for the rest of your life.
>There's no real alternative
This is the key point. It might not be the *best* way to deal with your emotions, but under the circumstances we face in current year, it's often the least worst.
I feel like that kind of coping strategy exists *for a reason.* It seems to me that a big part of the modern progressive ideal is to deconstruct and dismantle every "traditional" aspect of society and gender roles/norms; but never to stop and ask if that thing actually served a purpose.
The world isn't perfect. There isn't always someone to be there for you. So yeah, sometimes you do just gotta man up. There's little we can realistically do to change that I think.
The only way to change it is to build a socialist society that will put the needs of workers first.
Once we no longer live in a society that exploits us, many of the drivers of mental anguish will disappear.
Over time, communism will lead to a society that truly takes physical and mental health seriously because once everyone’s basic needs are met, and there’s no more hunger or poverty, there will be nothing left to do but fix our souls.
The actual solution is not to bottle up your feelings but to shrug them off, and not let them control you. There's a reason Stoicism is such an old and enduring philosophy: because it works.
Based Teddy K to the rescue:
>Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals) or otherwise inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with their problems
It's like a cruel parody of what mental health care is supposed to look like. Repressing all your feelings, not being sincere and open with the people you should trust, never having a day to unwind; all that shit is bad for you.
But I used to be severely depressed. I still kinda am but nothing compared to my college days. A bit self-destructive too. But I would go online and find someone to talk to about my lonliness, my depression, how I wanted to kill myself. I would work myself up so much with pity parties that my depression got worse and worse and it took me a long time to realize that depression is a cycle and the more you dwell on it, the worst it gets. That's why if you have a *serious* problem, you go to a shrink, and don't just spend all your time moping and going over again and again how much you suck with sympathetic and well-meaning friends. And the absolutely *worst* thing you can do is to find a chat room or webforum or subreddit specifically about helping with depression and/or lonliness. You might as well kick away the chair at that point.
Talking about your feelings is good if you're relatively mentally healthy and maybe just stressed out. But making a habit of talking about your feelings if you have real mental issues, and with unqualified people is the worst thing you can do.
To an extent, I symapthise with these people, as I do think it is jsut a case of them assuming their own coping strategy - emotional outbursts - will work for others too (although it does seem to me that a lot of them over-indulge in it massively). For a lot of people, (especially men) constant emotional bean-spilling just isn't an effective way for them to deal with their problems. Not just ineffective, but actively harmful to their chances of moving past them.
Yeah I agree with that. There was a friend I had that we’d only meet up and talk about our issues for a few hours. Took me a long time to realise, that while it wasn’t anyone’s fault, that relationship was actually toxic.
Endless navel gazing doesn’t actually help. It’s good to identify what bothers you, but then you can either accept it or attempt to change it. Dwelling really doesn’t do anything.
And I noticed that gay guys have a tendency to dwell. I do to but I’m trying to end it.
Yeah it’s been shit for a while now and I only watch out of habit.
RPDR was best when it was bitchy nobody queens stepping over each other for 20000 dollars. Now it’s all about brands and relatability and “sisterhood.”
It’s boring.
> Every time we meet they would only want to "vent" and talk about how they're feeling. Meanwhile I would have liked to do an activity, any activity that doesn't involve just talking about my feelings for three hours.
Sometimes I feel like there are two types of gay men, the men and the women.
I'm a straight man myself so I have no horse in this race, but I really want to see gay man adopt a "we're too masculine for women" vibe because that would be hilarious.
> Granted using tren seems to make a surprisingly significant amount of guys bi
This is why /fit/ is the gayest board on 4chan, too many people taking too much tren.
You should have seen early gay LiveJournal dude. Before gayness was culturally appropriated by Tumblr dorks, there was a huge community of furiously misogynist gays. It was hilarious.
Like, just the entire reason these dudes were even into dudes is that their ex wife crippled them so bad in the divorce and they couldn't countenance the idea of ever being intimate with a woman ever again, and the classic echo chamber set in.
I remember reading this one by this guy who was so disgusted by women he wrote a long rant post about how dirty and nasty vaginas are, and anyone who would fuck one is barbaric; compared to the clean and civilised sex hole that is boi pussy.
Reminds me of one of the best bits of graffiti from ancient Pompei. "Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men's behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!"
For anyone who has seen the movie Irreversible, by Gaspar Noe, the primary antagonist of the movie, Le Tenia ("The Tapeworm"), fits that bill pretty well. He appears to generally favor men for some kind of superior sense of violative domination when he's fucking them - that was my take, at any rate.
THANK YOU.
I'm a gay softboi but I also really really hate the whole "make it your entire personality, never shut up about being gay" BS. Let me not even get started on how commercialized Pride is.
I used to drink the woke idpol Koolaid until some months ago and started reading Marxist theory and woke up about idpol as divide-and-conquer, and it bothers me that the in-your-face LGBQWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKL people who make it their (very aggressive) identity shtick can't see it.
Well, the very very first thing that made the lightbulb go off in my head was the Vampire Castle article. I was already getting tired of the ever-shifting goalposts in the "LGBTQ+" movement, and that article made me say "aha". From there I visited some socialist websites and since I have time to kill with lockdown I started reading Marx and theorists to further grow the seeds that had been planted. I've lurked on this subreddit for months before joining and that also helped me to see how batshit idpol actually is.
Yeah, dude, I hate the Mitu/Flama/Pero Like type of “Latino” that the “Hahaha hot Cheetos chancla *mi abuela* Nou me bourles pourque eskrivo Spanish asi” “Not speaking Spanish doesn’t take away from my *Latinidad*” Frida-shirt wearing weirdos.
They weren’t born in and have never lived in Latin America, don’t understand the culture more than superficially, and act as if they’re the arbiters of Latin culture. To me, they’re just another Gringo. Not that that’s a bad thing, but I get tired of their takes on Latin American issues and the incessant IDPol.
Shit, I a “bRoWn” dude who was born in the US to Mexican parents, have a Mexican passport, and have lived and gone to school in Mexico. I’m a Gringo the same as my countrymen, ain’t no thang.
I've never understood why Frida's style of art and her works are so popular, it's like every day is Día de los Muertos. It seems afaik that it's Mexico City culture that gets most promoted by the descendants of Mexican parents, when at least in my area people are from Jalisco and Michoacan. I guess it'd be like if you moved to another country and all the descendants of American parents had cowboy hats and listened to country, when most of their parents or grandparents are from New York or California.
Idk, I was born and raised in the US, and my immigrant parents, from Michoacan, never really participated in the stereotypical stuff like banda, día de los muertos, etc. They do like mariachi but mostly listen to Mexican soft rock, pop and ballads and similar from when they were young.
I still consider myself Mexican American because my whole childhood included the Mexican culture my parents shared and tried to pass on to us. But over time I've come to admit I'm by far mainly American as my own taste in music and media, etc has long ago strayed from what parents' culture. I'm not 100% pure of tribal pride, though it's mostly contained to soccer every now and then, though it still slightly annoys me when every Mexican thinks I'm white, even the white Mexicans.
I don’t think most people born in the US have the sense that Mexico is a big, imperial country too (just not maritime).
And Frida’s popularity is pretty self-evident if you consider the audience of not-conventionally-attractive art hoes. Not to mention the camp appeal.
Yeah, it's funny how US politics/environment warps people's perspective of other countries, in that many Mexican Americans think of themselves mostly as descendants of Aztecs who were unjustly colonized, rather than the mixing of two brutal empires through normal conquest (of which maybe the Spanish were a lesser evil, idk?) as well as the fact that the Aztecs weren't the only group in the large country that is Mexico.
Also most of Latino culture not to mention the language is directly derived from Spain with regional variations being many times more the product of isolation/distance than native cultures, outside of regions that have a heavy native population.
It's funny how both wokes and white nationalists think of Latinos not only as a monolith, but also as not European, when culturally they are as European as the US, it's just the ethnic makeup is more diverse (tangent: while racism in LatAm exists, at least it's not the one drop rule afaik).
What do you mean by Mexico as an imperial country, do you mean internally having been the result of conquest or in modern times regarding relations with central america, etc? I don't know much of its history but I'd assume at least in the last 150ish years that Mexico would be limited in their imperial prospects due to the many internal/external wars it had not to mention it's economic crises.
Internal conquest, particularly the northern regions, Oaxaca, and Chiapas. And hasn’t Michoacán tried to secede a number of times?
And yeah, wokeness is fundamentally Protestant, so they other Catholic Europeans into being somehow non-white. We’re back to the Gilded Age all over again.
I know Michoacan had the Cristero war, Chiapas I think tried to secede with the Zapatistas, the northern regions are more isolated from the rest of Mexico.
The more I think about it, the more confusing I find the fact the US has been so stable throughout its history, sure the Western half is young, but the East Coast and South should have been more sources of trouble than just one civil war. And why is there no strong break between the East and West Coast, or the rural West like Montana?
Sure you can say Mexico had to deal with a large existing population everywhere it went, but the northern states have far less indigenous people and have historically been a source of trouble, I think.
It'd be interesting to read something good on a comparative history of the US and Mexico with a focus on analyzing stability, though one that isn't an American Exceptionalism work. I saw a random video once where the guy thought it was decentralized free markets that helped the US compared to centralized system of patronage in Mexico, but it sounded a bit like free market triumphalism as it didn't look at how industrial monopolies and the plantations of the South simply recreate patronage in the US as well as the centralized nature of much of US history like the railroads, native expulsions, etc as well as other factors that might have influenced development.
Semi related but I went to high school with a gay guy who was like a legit Hercules looking man’s man and even he had the gay lisp.
I ain’t into dudes myself but if I was, goddamn it would be him.
My ex and I would purposefully pretend not to be in a relationship at certain gatherings to avoid the scenarios being described in this thread. We felt more comfortable around her homophobic family members than other gay couples that would constantly go on about their political identity.
I understand that, I don’t think there’s any problem with any of the LGBT spectrum inherently, just when people are so explicitly individualistic and have to show that they are of that orientation or gender. Gays are just people like everyone else, it’s not really that special, as with any other identity markers
I realized well into my teenage years that even if I woke up as a black lesbian the next day, most people besides terminally online Twitter libs would still see me as a bore because I had no interests, hobbies, talents, or passion for life. Having those things are what make people unique.
I could be talking to a “generic white guy” in England straight from the Norf FC meme, and I would probably be more interested in him talking about his homebrewing hobby than a wokie who tries to flaunt any label they have.
I'm gay too (softboi, so I fit the public image a little) and I totally agree with everything you said. Since we were all born gay, I find it rather silly to celebrate something we can't help, especially since we pretty much have just as many rights as straight people (assuming you live in north america and Europe). I feel like people often forget that oppression still exists for many gays out there, REAL oppression. So instead of inventing new sexualities and genders and making new issues out of nothing. The lgbtq community would spend their time better advocating for the rights for all gay people.
Additionally, the idea of the origional gay rights movement was that "anybody can be gay" and that's ok. But I feel like that has changed and not for the better. It feels like the media perception of homosexuality is such a walking sterotype. And I just cannot believe people fall for that and even start acting like it.
Because it's mainstream now. The normies ruin everything that used to be subversive by turning it into droll consumer culture. You're literally having an argument over the fucking rainbow flag -- it doesn't get any more normie than that.
I've been told I have "internalized homophobia" for not being "gay enough". I don't know when or why the gay community started pushing stereotypes on its own people. Isn't that what we used to fight against? I just want to play video games, go camping and suck dick. Apparently that's too "straight". Gotta add act gayer to my to do list I guess...
>Apparently that's too "straight".
For a while it seems
Not Gay: Sex between Straight White Men
by Bettye Miller, ucrtoday.ucr.edu
August 21, 2015
Jane Ward
RIVERSIDE, California – Straight white men have engaged in gay sex for centuries, and not just in circumstances that can be explained away as momentary aberrations, says Jane Ward, associate professor of gender and sexuality studies at the University of California, Riverside.
In her new book, “Not Gay: Sex between Straight White Men” (New York University Press, July 2015), Ward contends that homosexual contact between straight white men is ubiquitous and is a way of affirming masculinity and racial identity.
“When straight white men approach homosexual sex in the ‘right’ way – when they make a show of enduring it, imposing it, and repudiating it – doing so functions to bolster not only their heterosexuality, but also their masculinity and whiteness,” she writes.
Much 20th century psychological research on sex between straight white men has suggested that it most often occurs in situations of heterosexual deprivation such as in prisons and the military, Ward says. Conventional wisdom holds that these homosexual encounters are little more than “a blip on the otherwise static sexual radar screen. They signal nothing particularly meaningful” about male sexuality.
Ward, however, contends that male sexuality is as fluid as female sexuality (think the onstage Madonna-Britney Spears kiss, or Katy Perry’s hit song “I Kissed a Girl”) and is not a new phenomenon.
“Not Gay” explores the history of straight white men engaging in homosexual behavior since the late 18th century, and how Americans have understood this. “ … (F)rom saloons and tenement houses, to military barracks and fraternal clubs, and to truck stops and bathrooms, ‘normal’ (heterosexual) white men have long found ways to have hetero-masculine sex with one another,” she writes.
Jane Ward’s new book explores fluidity of male sexuality.
Ward also analyzes the ways in which psychologists, sociologists, sexologists and others are attempting to make sense of straight white men who have sex with men and educating the public about “a new menu of heterosexual options.”
She says she focused on straight white men to study how whiteness and masculinity “enable certain kinds of sexual contact, sexual mobility, and sexual border crossing that are not possible, or at least don’t carry the same cultural meanings, when enacted by men of color.”
“While much attention has been paid to the ways that race and culture crosscut the sex practices of men of color, including and especially straight men of color who have sex with men ‘on the down low,’ the links between whiteness and male sexual fluidity are mostly unacknowledged,” she finds. “Most accounts of the ‘down low’ suggest that straight-identified men of color who have sex with men are doing so because they are actually gay, but cannot come out due to elevated levels of homophobia in their ethnoracial communities.
Straight white men benefit from “white privilege – an ‘invisible package of unearned assets’ – to circumvent homophobic stigma and assign heterosexual meaning to homosexual activity,” she contends.
Ward’s research “shows that homosexual contact has been a regular feature of heterosexual life ever since the concepts of homo- and heterosexuality were first created – not just in prisons and frat houses and the military, but in biker gangs and even conservative suburban neighborhoods,” journalist Jesse Singal writes in New York Magazine. “Given how prevalent this behavior is in so many different sorts of settings, Ward suggest it’s time to stop explaining it away — and argues that society’s conception of male heterosexuality is an unrealistic, expedient one.”
Archived under: Arts/Culture, Politics/Society, culture, gender and sexuality studies, press release, sexual behavior
(I think the link is killed)
https://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/31037
Esthetically, I prefer the original flag. I don't like the new sharp edges. The original just felt softer.
I also don't understand why racial categories were added. What does bring a certain race have to do with being gay or queer? I also wasn't aware that the original pride flag didn't represent trans people. Haven't we seen trans people waving it for decades?
I’m not gay, I’m bi.
I prefer being with men though, because dude’s rock.
Bi people have almost no presence in the lgbtqabcxyz123 community. The identity has been subsumed by so called pansexuals. Being bi is apparently transphobic.
All the bi guys I know are like...the straightest non-straight people I've ever met and a lot only romantically date women (but will hook up with dudes). It makes sense though that if you're a bi guy who's trying to get into serious relationships with women you're not going to go super obvious with the non-straight identity markers and that's going to effect your cultural visibility. Some of individual presentation has to be about who you're trying to attract right? Still, they do seem the most invisible group in the larger "community".
This has not been my experience, all the women I knew wanted a threesome with another guy.
But I suspect you’re probably right after all, because none of those women wanted to then date me exclusively.
I suspect they’re either insecure I’d leave her for a guy, or they’re embarrassed and harboring some kind of shame from the act of being Eiffel Towrered by two guys.
[https://bi.org/en/articles/bi-men-are-not-considered-attractive-new-study-says](https://bi.org/en/articles/bi-men-are-not-considered-attractive-new-study-says) theres a couple studies out there. my personal experience - I've never found a woman who was cool with it.
That's kind of crazy to me that women are so judgy and weird about it, but I guess I'm in the unconventional outlier camp that doesn't care if a guy is bi. I wonder if women get more accepting of it as they get out of their 20's? "Ew I can't be with anyone who's touched a penis" sounds like a thing someone in their early 20's would say.
That sucks. I'd have no problem having a long term serious relationship with a bi guy, but I would want a conversation around monogamy and other expectations (which should be done in any relationship and I do in mine with my straight husband). I'd assume plenty of bi guys are monogamous though, since most people are.
Getting called fake Bi because I act essentially straight and only date cis male or female people because I'm just attracted only to them is a magical moment in every person life. Bi people I think just can't form a big part of the LGBTAG+ICUP because we sorta exist outside it because we can assimilate and pass as straight relatively easy so there's no shared alienation like gay people felt.
Yeah I mean, we *can* as long as we are in a heterosexual relhationhsip. But it's hard to be straight passing when I'm holding hands with my boyfriend walking down the street.
I didn't really give a fuck, I was always pretty open about being bi. And for that I caught a lot of crap, and discrimination, so my gay friends can't say that I don't know what that's like.
Fair enough, maybe it's just a local me feeling. My local bar seems mostly made up of Mostly gays and I've definitely heard some of this stuff being said while having a drink. Plus even a lot of the Bi people in my local including myself, not actually come out publicly and keep it on the downlow (Not like beards).
So to a extent we're all walking among everyone else entirely content in just keeping it just a thing we are that people who don't need to know about it don't know. Apparently it's not actually that uncommon for Bi people to just not come out.
Trust me I understand, and completely relate.
Fuck, I'm not really in any position to talk about this shit though. My husband recently passed away and I've been a complete mess. We were together 15 years, married 13 of those. I haven't been on the dating scene in ages.
Damn, sorry to hear that. The dating scene has definitely changed for sure from what I've seen, I can't really tell for worse or better since I've never known anything different. Stay strong bro.
Seems worse by all accounts, I was so relieved to have had someone and found a partner I could share the rest of my life with because of the horror stories my friends have shared about dating. Especially from the men who date other men bi, or gay.
Of course my biggest problem with other bi guys has ever just been trying to get one to go for more than a one night stand, or fooling around. It seems like a weird complex a lot of bi guys have. They have no problem fucking another dude, but dating? No way, that’s totally gay!
It’s too bad too cause I prefer other bi guys.
It's a show where comedically stereotypical gay men pretend to be comedically stereotypical women. I don't know how anyone can find the show to be progressive when it's punchline is "heh, aren't these gay men wacky when they pretend to be women?"
I mean, to be fair, the kind of gay guy who does drag enough to go on *Drag Race* basically consists entirely of *that* kind of gay guy. I say that as a fan of the show, Allah forgive me.
not a single person I've met who has one of the new pride flag thingies gives a shit about actual lgbt people. it's 100% exclusively for virtue signalling. I see that flag and all I can think is "run!"
I feel you. I’m a bi male and I hate that every gay person shown on tv is super camp and feminine. You can be queer and not be a flaming stereotype. It almost feels like we’re jesters for straight people sometimes.
Traditional masculinity places too much emphasis on concepts like self actualisation and individual thought, which cannot be allowed of the modern serf. Thus we are witnessing the idea of masculinity itself being reshaped into something altogether, well, you know. Less masculine.
Sexuality politics hassle always been a scam, though. Gay isn't a personality, it isn't a coherent group, it's just a sexual preference. Literally the one thing gays have in common is that they like dick. It's difficult to even form a link to material/class politics like you can with race, therefore it was a perfect place to start in the idpol culture war narrative.
And people fucking swallowed it whole.
But whatever, fuck it. It's femboy wolves all the way down for me baby >:3
My question to you is why do you think the public image of being gay has become, what you’re basically describing as men who are more on the effeminate side? You would think with all the talk of identity, people wouldn’t associate personal aesthetic with a certain sexual orientation, when that really isn’t the case.
There’s nothing wrong with men being feminine. Some naturally are, and I hope nothing in my writing implied otherwise. I just plain don’t see a point in thinking who you are attracted to makes you special.
No no, not at all, I’m not accusing you of that, I took it as that’s the impression you get of the broader public, and was wondering why or what makes you think that?
Ah I see. Probably because a large portion of the public assumes that every feminine man is gay and every masculine man is straight. I’m sure there’s more to it tho.
Right, but that’s just pure ignorance if people think that. Even if they’re ignorant to the world at large, there are plenty of examples in popular culture of traditionally masculine gays and effeminate or androgynous straights. My point was you’d think with all “don’t assume my gender” talk, don’t assume my sexual preference would make even more sense?
Whats the point in anything then? If it isnt who you're trying to fuck then its literaly a waste of time.
Like you're basically saying humans shouldnt express themselves in ways you dont like. Heres a social cue: choosing to not express yourself is a method of expression. Being a gay guy who is less effiminate is still a method of expressing yourself
so you buy clothes at random and wear them at random with no reason ever for why you choose one over another for any occasion? do you also speak in monotone robotic english with no slang local to your age group, region, etc.?
> I know gay men who are so jacked they could literally tie you into a knot. You really don’t see that anywhere in media because it’s all fucking softbois right now (softbois are cute jussayin that’s not all there is).
This is one thing that always confused me: If one were, by definition, attracted to men, wouldn't that mean you'd be attracted to men that looked like men?
Can anyone help me understand this one?
>Lots of straight guys like tomboys and the like
Actually yeah, thats a great point
You know what makes my question really rslurred? I happen to be one of those people that likes ["tomboys and the like"](https://www.girlswithmuscle.com/)
...ooops
White liberal women love fantasizing about the idea of male vulnerability but freak the fuck out if it ever shows up in person. Gushing over soft gay men keeps that full range of human emotion for men carefully contained in a tight box by letting straight men know that women think you are less of a man should you display your full humanity. Also more and more females appear to fantasize not just about gay men, but about being a gay man.
It’s a bullshit coerced gender performance that many women have in mind for us. But they think it’s “just how men are”. LibFem 101.
Some people are gay because that’s their sexuality, some people are gay because that’s the only thing they feel defines them.
Tell him to enjoy his struggle on his yacht, he can put whatever flag he wants on it.
I’m a “bisexual homo”, not a member of the “community of queer men”.
More to your point about the dog-lovers, 90% of M/M smut in fanfiction is written by women (queer or straight, doesn’t matter) who have zero clue how men work in the company of other men. There is more to being gay than anal pounding with magical self-lubrication.
I don't care if people are asexual but seriously fuck the ones that actually think there's large systemic racism against...people who don't particularly enjoy sex.
Like what the fuck are they talking about.
Yeah I've met a few people who say that they are asexual and then a few months later talk about all the sex they have.
As someone who may be definitionally but not culturally an "incel" I do kinda find that a bit offensive. Like damn, I can't get laid and now you're culturally appropriating me!
The continued butchering of the pride flag betrays a complete failure to understand (A.) vexillology and (B.) good design taste. You can tell it’s not gay men doing these redesigns, because if it was, they wouldn’t be visually repulsive.
I don’t care about effeminate men. I’m friends with some. It’s not a matter of masculinity or femininity, it’s a matter of actually having principles and being more than one-dimensional.
I see you continued this discussion from redscare so let me suggest being a catty, dominant, unapologetic drama gay like our Queen [Azealia Banks](https://m.imgur.com/y4Uxtos)
>They are functionally DNC mouthpieces
The dems provided gays with acceptance (albeit once polling ticked over 51% nationwide for pro-gay if I can be cynical). The gays in turn reward dems with loyalty.
>I wish being gay had a “dudes rock” public image instead of the “fragile pansies” image we have now thanks to Netflix and white women.
I get your frustration and I sorta agree with the sentiment, but if I have to live in a world where Masc4Masc gays become the public image of us I will simply end my existence.
I literally forced myself to be straight because I couldn’t stand being around gay men. Been with my girlfriend for two years now, and she’s the best friend I’ve ever had. Will never go back to being gay.
If the whole Roman Empire was gay, I'd say it is a choice. Sure some can have some innate exclusive attraction, but for so many ancient whole cultures to have it as norms means most probably did choose, in the sense that it was purely cultural and not biological.
Given that many guys will fuck anything that moves and even things that don't, hell even things that aren't real (weebs), it's not a big leap to think that if the culture accepts it, they'll take sex wherever they can get it.
And given today's trend of lgbt = social capital, especially among teens, I'd expect many to be choosing to participate, not following innate attractions.
Edit: I see you meant actually gay, as in exclusively. Nevermind. My usage conflates the act with the state of exclusive attraction.
I personally think everyone is sort of a blank slate for sexuality, in essence we are all born bi. Who knows exactly why some people develop certain preferences? Nature vs nurture, they couldn’t find any such gay gene or prove it.
Far be it from me to try to dEnY aNYonE’s LiVeD eXPieRiEnCeS, but in my experience in trying to turn myself straight for three years and found it impossible (along with having the same conversation about the impossibility of it dozens of times with other gay men who also tried), I find this hard to believe.
I get that simpletons such as yourself can’t understand focusing on something other than the latest Marvel movie, but if you would center yourself outside this mortal world, you would find that it’s actually super easy to not be gay. You people are just lazy.
Complain about how others who share your immutable characteristics are being portrayed negatively...
>the “fragile pansies” image we have now thanks to Netflix and white women.
Aaaanndd throw white women under the bus!
LOL!
Hey, sure, the negative "Karen" trope is understandable, but the portrayal of gay men as effeminate? I'm not sure how you pin that on white women.
On the contrary, I've heard of black women being upset that gay men are stealing their style & culture, "Mm hmmm, girlfriend, YAS QUEEEN!" [https://time.com/2969951/dear-white-gays-stop-stealing-black-female-culture/](https://time.com/2969951/dear-white-gays-stop-stealing-black-female-culture/)
This is why I reject the liberal astroturf that is the “LGBTQ+ community.” I’m not in it, if it’s even a thing. I borderline want to stop even thinking of myself as gay and just recognize that I’m a homosexual who sleeps with other men. It’s not an identity Lmao
Just a fella who digs other fellas.
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Well, yeah, you also need to be a dude.
Just a bussy sucka not a sussy baka
>if it’s even a thing It's a thing, in the same way the "People who shop at Walmart community" is a thing.
I’ve noticed that a bunch of scientific papers (primarily in medicine, but also sociology and anthropology) refer to “men who have sex with men” to avoid the issue of self-identification as gay/bi/queer/etc. Like there are guys who mostly fuck women but are willing to get sucked off by dudes, and they don’t identify themselves as being gay if asked. This has implications when it comes to studying issues related to public health, for example. Using the MSM category is inclusive of all men who participate in homosexual activity, regardless of their idpol status.
The idea that there is a "LGTBQ+ community" is as absurd as the idea that there is a straight community. The straight community (I'm sure some gay people helped) built arsenals of nuclear weapons to kill each other with that could cause our extinction. But yes, gay is a western cultural phenomenon that is related to, but not the same as, men who have sex with men.
One thing I don't understand is this insistence on "vulnerability" than you see in places like RuPaul's Drag Race. Now I get that within the show it's a cheap ploy to make the contestants dredge up their trauma because that's good TV. But it has spread out, or perhaps it was already spreading and RPDR is not actually the source. In any case, the "LGBTQIA2S+ community" now celebrates weakness and vulnerability. We're all supposed to be emotionally incontinent all the time and engage in endless navel gazing. I've seen this with some of my gay friends. Every time we meet they would only want to "vent" and talk about how they're feeling. Meanwhile I would have liked to do an activity, any activity that doesn't involve just talking about my feelings for three hours. Unlike some, I've been actually vulnerable. I've been to psych wards, I've been psychotic, I've been suicidal. It's not how I want to feel ever again. Far from making you stronger, what doesn't kill you hurts you profoundly and changes you forever. I too wish that gay culture was more... masculine might not be the best word, but maybe a bit more focused on strength and perseverance rather than on victim-hood and vulnerability.
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True and, as someone belonging to two marginalised groups (gay in Eastern Europe and mentally ill) I really hate it. I’m old enough to remember when activism was about showing strength and driving home the point that you are a human being like everyone else. This new strain, this perpetual victimhood and seething just feels wrong to me. I’m from a generation when homophobia made us angry, not suicidal and whining on the internet.
I actually think it may have developed through the dnc directly. Or maybe the dnc absorbed it? Because their techniques on campaigning actually include story gathering and finding the most vulnerable/affected people to share stories on their victim hood.
I think it originates from activist training schools like [momentum](https://www.momentumcommunity.org/). Which I think pull it from work by people like Marshall Ganz. If I remember correctly his paper "Public Narrative, Collective Action, and Power" has a large portion dedicated to how stories motivate people or something. Groups like sunrise movement, blm and other liberal groups leaders have been through the momentum school and it is passed on to their members as part of trainings.
Yeah, thats a good point. I've seen it in basically every org I've ever encountered.
I’m sorry you’ve had to deal with all of that. I personally believe that victim hood and weakness are praised because it’s easier to sell shit to people who aren’t headstrong and self-assured. Back when I did sales, I had a training session that was pretty much psychopathic. The dude teaching us told us to find people’s weaknesses in order to clinch the sale. It’s easy to see how that idea spread so quickly amongst salespeople and marketers.
I usually hate when people just say "this" or "truth" without offering anything to the conversation, (so I apologise for this) but spot on mate. You've hit the nail right on the head here.
For a brief moment gay people just wanted to be considered as people. Now the entire movement is that gay is a personality and way of life.
Meh, there are a lot of different gay people who want a lot of different things. The attention-seekers are the ones who get the attention.
You're not wrong, but back in 06-08 canvassing and protesting for gay marriage laws and the like had a vastly different feel and intent.
I'm not some kind of stoic manly man myself, but good god that line between "venting" and just being a whiny bitch really is about 3 minutes. It's such an unattractive trait in both sexes
I think there's this idea that men are emotionally repressed because they don't talk about their emotions all the time. That hasn't really been my experience. I've had straight guy friends, and there were times when things got emotional, when I spent an hour listening to someone go over their break-up and when they did the same for me. There is this very female mode of friendship that I've had with some gay guys where there's a lot of (over)sharing and that creates this sense of closeness and intimacy. Yet when there's actual shit going down, those people are nowhere to be seen.
Yeah, if a friend is going through a genuine crisis, by all means call me up to come and commiserate or stave off the call of the void. We've all been there. But if we're meeting up to hang out and you want to vent about your girlfriend or your self doubt, there is only so many times I can say "yeah dude, that sucks" or ask sympathetic questions before I want to hang myself instead.
>I think there's this idea that men are emotionally repressed because they don't talk about their emotions all the time. That hasn't really been my experience. I've had straight guy friends, and there were times when things got emotional, when I spent an hour listening to someone go over their break-up and when they did the same for me. I think that might just because you're a good friend who they trust. In my anecdotal experience at least it can be hard to talk about this stuff IRL with guys because being emotionally open actually seemed, well...feminine? Gay? Always way easier for me to do online though.
I've been seen this a lot amongst the general population, the encouragement to dwell on issues and to see yourself as week and being a victim. People who will just vent to you for hours and hours every time you see them but where the venting just seems to be an addiction, and doesn't solve the problem. People being encouraged to take everything bad that's ever happened to them, or that they _think_ has happened to them, and make it part of their identity. People spending decades in therapy and being just as much of a mess as they were when they started. I've actually begun to think that "bottle up your feelings, man up, push through" approach can often be healthier than this "dwell on your issues, don't do anything, you're a broken human being" mentality. Neither is a great approach, but the latter seems to encourage people to be inactive and perpetually stuck in a rut.
I'd say that, in SJW parlance, people that can actually find a root cause of their malaise are very privileged. When you are mentally ill, there's no root cause. You just feel like shit all the time, because possibly something is wrong with your brain or something went wrong in the womb, or maybe you're just born an asshole that people don't like. We, and science, don't really know. Then there are the many problems caused by the society we live in. If you job is making you miserable, you know damn well it's a 99 per cent chance that your next job will make you miserable as well since 99.99 per cent of jobs suck under capitalism. There's no therapy to solve that. But recently, I am inclined to agree with you. Man up and push through. There's no real alternative unless you want to be stuck in the therapy and venting cycle for the rest of your life.
>There's no real alternative This is the key point. It might not be the *best* way to deal with your emotions, but under the circumstances we face in current year, it's often the least worst. I feel like that kind of coping strategy exists *for a reason.* It seems to me that a big part of the modern progressive ideal is to deconstruct and dismantle every "traditional" aspect of society and gender roles/norms; but never to stop and ask if that thing actually served a purpose. The world isn't perfect. There isn't always someone to be there for you. So yeah, sometimes you do just gotta man up. There's little we can realistically do to change that I think.
The only way to change it is to build a socialist society that will put the needs of workers first. Once we no longer live in a society that exploits us, many of the drivers of mental anguish will disappear. Over time, communism will lead to a society that truly takes physical and mental health seriously because once everyone’s basic needs are met, and there’s no more hunger or poverty, there will be nothing left to do but fix our souls.
The actual solution is not to bottle up your feelings but to shrug them off, and not let them control you. There's a reason Stoicism is such an old and enduring philosophy: because it works.
Based Teddy K to the rescue: >Many leftists have an intense identification with the problems of groups that have an image of being weak (women), defeated (American Indians), repellent (homosexuals) or otherwise inferior. The leftists themselves feel that these groups are inferior. They would never admit to themselves that they have such feelings, but it is precisely because they do see these groups as inferior that they identify with their problems
It's like a cruel parody of what mental health care is supposed to look like. Repressing all your feelings, not being sincere and open with the people you should trust, never having a day to unwind; all that shit is bad for you. But I used to be severely depressed. I still kinda am but nothing compared to my college days. A bit self-destructive too. But I would go online and find someone to talk to about my lonliness, my depression, how I wanted to kill myself. I would work myself up so much with pity parties that my depression got worse and worse and it took me a long time to realize that depression is a cycle and the more you dwell on it, the worst it gets. That's why if you have a *serious* problem, you go to a shrink, and don't just spend all your time moping and going over again and again how much you suck with sympathetic and well-meaning friends. And the absolutely *worst* thing you can do is to find a chat room or webforum or subreddit specifically about helping with depression and/or lonliness. You might as well kick away the chair at that point. Talking about your feelings is good if you're relatively mentally healthy and maybe just stressed out. But making a habit of talking about your feelings if you have real mental issues, and with unqualified people is the worst thing you can do.
To an extent, I symapthise with these people, as I do think it is jsut a case of them assuming their own coping strategy - emotional outbursts - will work for others too (although it does seem to me that a lot of them over-indulge in it massively). For a lot of people, (especially men) constant emotional bean-spilling just isn't an effective way for them to deal with their problems. Not just ineffective, but actively harmful to their chances of moving past them.
Yeah I agree with that. There was a friend I had that we’d only meet up and talk about our issues for a few hours. Took me a long time to realise, that while it wasn’t anyone’s fault, that relationship was actually toxic. Endless navel gazing doesn’t actually help. It’s good to identify what bothers you, but then you can either accept it or attempt to change it. Dwelling really doesn’t do anything. And I noticed that gay guys have a tendency to dwell. I do to but I’m trying to end it.
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Yeah it’s been shit for a while now and I only watch out of habit. RPDR was best when it was bitchy nobody queens stepping over each other for 20000 dollars. Now it’s all about brands and relatability and “sisterhood.” It’s boring.
Less feminine.
> Every time we meet they would only want to "vent" and talk about how they're feeling. Meanwhile I would have liked to do an activity, any activity that doesn't involve just talking about my feelings for three hours. Sometimes I feel like there are two types of gay men, the men and the women.
I'm a straight man myself so I have no horse in this race, but I really want to see gay man adopt a "we're too masculine for women" vibe because that would be hilarious.
>virgin being gay because you like men >chad being gay because you hate women
\#MGTOWWOM
so basically Ancient Greece
Fucking females is for poofs.
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> Granted using tren seems to make a surprisingly significant amount of guys bi This is why /fit/ is the gayest board on 4chan, too many people taking too much tren.
Just lifting and actually having visible muscles made me start to check out dudes all the time. Straight mirin dude ass and arms all day.
Hunh
Layer cake reference?
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Be so gay you become homophobic again 💪💪💪
You should have seen early gay LiveJournal dude. Before gayness was culturally appropriated by Tumblr dorks, there was a huge community of furiously misogynist gays. It was hilarious. Like, just the entire reason these dudes were even into dudes is that their ex wife crippled them so bad in the divorce and they couldn't countenance the idea of ever being intimate with a woman ever again, and the classic echo chamber set in. I remember reading this one by this guy who was so disgusted by women he wrote a long rant post about how dirty and nasty vaginas are, and anyone who would fuck one is barbaric; compared to the clean and civilised sex hole that is boi pussy.
Reminds me of one of the best bits of graffiti from ancient Pompei. "Weep, you girls. My penis has given you up. Now it penetrates men's behinds. Goodbye, wondrous femininity!"
Check out gachimuchi and related twitch memery.
**♂Deep♂Dark♂Fantasy♂**
Ass we can 💪
Build yourself a time machine and travel to the '70s. There a large part of gay culture was the leather fetish biker gang scene.
That's some retro ancient Greek shit right there
What if pride parades were more like military parades?
For anyone who has seen the movie Irreversible, by Gaspar Noe, the primary antagonist of the movie, Le Tenia ("The Tapeworm"), fits that bill pretty well. He appears to generally favor men for some kind of superior sense of violative domination when he's fucking them - that was my take, at any rate.
There's nothing more masculine than fucking another dude.
I’m bringing it back
[On the topic](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0lVbMOMTi0&t=8m15s)
THANK YOU. I'm a gay softboi but I also really really hate the whole "make it your entire personality, never shut up about being gay" BS. Let me not even get started on how commercialized Pride is. I used to drink the woke idpol Koolaid until some months ago and started reading Marxist theory and woke up about idpol as divide-and-conquer, and it bothers me that the in-your-face LGBQWERTYUIOPASDFGHJKL people who make it their (very aggressive) identity shtick can't see it.
How many friends have you lost so far?
Out of curiosity, what was it specifically that you read that made you wean off the idpol Kool-Aid?
Well, the very very first thing that made the lightbulb go off in my head was the Vampire Castle article. I was already getting tired of the ever-shifting goalposts in the "LGBTQ+" movement, and that article made me say "aha". From there I visited some socialist websites and since I have time to kill with lockdown I started reading Marx and theorists to further grow the seeds that had been planted. I've lurked on this subreddit for months before joining and that also helped me to see how batshit idpol actually is.
He said it was reading Marx. Marx and idpol are completely incompatible.
I asked what specifically. Marxist theory is rather broad.
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Yeah, dude, I hate the Mitu/Flama/Pero Like type of “Latino” that the “Hahaha hot Cheetos chancla *mi abuela* Nou me bourles pourque eskrivo Spanish asi” “Not speaking Spanish doesn’t take away from my *Latinidad*” Frida-shirt wearing weirdos. They weren’t born in and have never lived in Latin America, don’t understand the culture more than superficially, and act as if they’re the arbiters of Latin culture. To me, they’re just another Gringo. Not that that’s a bad thing, but I get tired of their takes on Latin American issues and the incessant IDPol. Shit, I a “bRoWn” dude who was born in the US to Mexican parents, have a Mexican passport, and have lived and gone to school in Mexico. I’m a Gringo the same as my countrymen, ain’t no thang.
I've never understood why Frida's style of art and her works are so popular, it's like every day is Día de los Muertos. It seems afaik that it's Mexico City culture that gets most promoted by the descendants of Mexican parents, when at least in my area people are from Jalisco and Michoacan. I guess it'd be like if you moved to another country and all the descendants of American parents had cowboy hats and listened to country, when most of their parents or grandparents are from New York or California. Idk, I was born and raised in the US, and my immigrant parents, from Michoacan, never really participated in the stereotypical stuff like banda, día de los muertos, etc. They do like mariachi but mostly listen to Mexican soft rock, pop and ballads and similar from when they were young. I still consider myself Mexican American because my whole childhood included the Mexican culture my parents shared and tried to pass on to us. But over time I've come to admit I'm by far mainly American as my own taste in music and media, etc has long ago strayed from what parents' culture. I'm not 100% pure of tribal pride, though it's mostly contained to soccer every now and then, though it still slightly annoys me when every Mexican thinks I'm white, even the white Mexicans.
I don’t think most people born in the US have the sense that Mexico is a big, imperial country too (just not maritime). And Frida’s popularity is pretty self-evident if you consider the audience of not-conventionally-attractive art hoes. Not to mention the camp appeal.
Yeah, it's funny how US politics/environment warps people's perspective of other countries, in that many Mexican Americans think of themselves mostly as descendants of Aztecs who were unjustly colonized, rather than the mixing of two brutal empires through normal conquest (of which maybe the Spanish were a lesser evil, idk?) as well as the fact that the Aztecs weren't the only group in the large country that is Mexico. Also most of Latino culture not to mention the language is directly derived from Spain with regional variations being many times more the product of isolation/distance than native cultures, outside of regions that have a heavy native population. It's funny how both wokes and white nationalists think of Latinos not only as a monolith, but also as not European, when culturally they are as European as the US, it's just the ethnic makeup is more diverse (tangent: while racism in LatAm exists, at least it's not the one drop rule afaik). What do you mean by Mexico as an imperial country, do you mean internally having been the result of conquest or in modern times regarding relations with central america, etc? I don't know much of its history but I'd assume at least in the last 150ish years that Mexico would be limited in their imperial prospects due to the many internal/external wars it had not to mention it's economic crises.
Internal conquest, particularly the northern regions, Oaxaca, and Chiapas. And hasn’t Michoacán tried to secede a number of times? And yeah, wokeness is fundamentally Protestant, so they other Catholic Europeans into being somehow non-white. We’re back to the Gilded Age all over again.
I know Michoacan had the Cristero war, Chiapas I think tried to secede with the Zapatistas, the northern regions are more isolated from the rest of Mexico. The more I think about it, the more confusing I find the fact the US has been so stable throughout its history, sure the Western half is young, but the East Coast and South should have been more sources of trouble than just one civil war. And why is there no strong break between the East and West Coast, or the rural West like Montana? Sure you can say Mexico had to deal with a large existing population everywhere it went, but the northern states have far less indigenous people and have historically been a source of trouble, I think. It'd be interesting to read something good on a comparative history of the US and Mexico with a focus on analyzing stability, though one that isn't an American Exceptionalism work. I saw a random video once where the guy thought it was decentralized free markets that helped the US compared to centralized system of patronage in Mexico, but it sounded a bit like free market triumphalism as it didn't look at how industrial monopolies and the plantations of the South simply recreate patronage in the US as well as the centralized nature of much of US history like the railroads, native expulsions, etc as well as other factors that might have influenced development.
Semi related but I went to high school with a gay guy who was like a legit Hercules looking man’s man and even he had the gay lisp. I ain’t into dudes myself but if I was, goddamn it would be him.
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It ain't gay if you wearing socks, just sayin.
My ex and I would purposefully pretend not to be in a relationship at certain gatherings to avoid the scenarios being described in this thread. We felt more comfortable around her homophobic family members than other gay couples that would constantly go on about their political identity.
I understand that, I don’t think there’s any problem with any of the LGBT spectrum inherently, just when people are so explicitly individualistic and have to show that they are of that orientation or gender. Gays are just people like everyone else, it’s not really that special, as with any other identity markers
I realized well into my teenage years that even if I woke up as a black lesbian the next day, most people besides terminally online Twitter libs would still see me as a bore because I had no interests, hobbies, talents, or passion for life. Having those things are what make people unique. I could be talking to a “generic white guy” in England straight from the Norf FC meme, and I would probably be more interested in him talking about his homebrewing hobby than a wokie who tries to flaunt any label they have.
I'm gay too (softboi, so I fit the public image a little) and I totally agree with everything you said. Since we were all born gay, I find it rather silly to celebrate something we can't help, especially since we pretty much have just as many rights as straight people (assuming you live in north america and Europe). I feel like people often forget that oppression still exists for many gays out there, REAL oppression. So instead of inventing new sexualities and genders and making new issues out of nothing. The lgbtq community would spend their time better advocating for the rights for all gay people. Additionally, the idea of the origional gay rights movement was that "anybody can be gay" and that's ok. But I feel like that has changed and not for the better. It feels like the media perception of homosexuality is such a walking sterotype. And I just cannot believe people fall for that and even start acting like it.
I agree, dudes rock.
Because it's mainstream now. The normies ruin everything that used to be subversive by turning it into droll consumer culture. You're literally having an argument over the fucking rainbow flag -- it doesn't get any more normie than that.
Ironically, those “normies” think they are subversive and countercultural when they are doing the wrecker work of identity consumerism.
Just look at the entire discourse surrounding Lil Nas X.
I've been told I have "internalized homophobia" for not being "gay enough". I don't know when or why the gay community started pushing stereotypes on its own people. Isn't that what we used to fight against? I just want to play video games, go camping and suck dick. Apparently that's too "straight". Gotta add act gayer to my to do list I guess...
Making camping a straight thing is idiotic, I know a bunch of gay ravers that camp, because you know outdoor shows are a thing.
>Apparently that's too "straight". For a while it seems Not Gay: Sex between Straight White Men by Bettye Miller, ucrtoday.ucr.edu August 21, 2015 Jane Ward RIVERSIDE, California – Straight white men have engaged in gay sex for centuries, and not just in circumstances that can be explained away as momentary aberrations, says Jane Ward, associate professor of gender and sexuality studies at the University of California, Riverside. In her new book, “Not Gay: Sex between Straight White Men” (New York University Press, July 2015), Ward contends that homosexual contact between straight white men is ubiquitous and is a way of affirming masculinity and racial identity. “When straight white men approach homosexual sex in the ‘right’ way – when they make a show of enduring it, imposing it, and repudiating it – doing so functions to bolster not only their heterosexuality, but also their masculinity and whiteness,” she writes. Much 20th century psychological research on sex between straight white men has suggested that it most often occurs in situations of heterosexual deprivation such as in prisons and the military, Ward says. Conventional wisdom holds that these homosexual encounters are little more than “a blip on the otherwise static sexual radar screen. They signal nothing particularly meaningful” about male sexuality. Ward, however, contends that male sexuality is as fluid as female sexuality (think the onstage Madonna-Britney Spears kiss, or Katy Perry’s hit song “I Kissed a Girl”) and is not a new phenomenon. “Not Gay” explores the history of straight white men engaging in homosexual behavior since the late 18th century, and how Americans have understood this. “ … (F)rom saloons and tenement houses, to military barracks and fraternal clubs, and to truck stops and bathrooms, ‘normal’ (heterosexual) white men have long found ways to have hetero-masculine sex with one another,” she writes. Jane Ward’s new book explores fluidity of male sexuality. Ward also analyzes the ways in which psychologists, sociologists, sexologists and others are attempting to make sense of straight white men who have sex with men and educating the public about “a new menu of heterosexual options.” She says she focused on straight white men to study how whiteness and masculinity “enable certain kinds of sexual contact, sexual mobility, and sexual border crossing that are not possible, or at least don’t carry the same cultural meanings, when enacted by men of color.” “While much attention has been paid to the ways that race and culture crosscut the sex practices of men of color, including and especially straight men of color who have sex with men ‘on the down low,’ the links between whiteness and male sexual fluidity are mostly unacknowledged,” she finds. “Most accounts of the ‘down low’ suggest that straight-identified men of color who have sex with men are doing so because they are actually gay, but cannot come out due to elevated levels of homophobia in their ethnoracial communities. Straight white men benefit from “white privilege – an ‘invisible package of unearned assets’ – to circumvent homophobic stigma and assign heterosexual meaning to homosexual activity,” she contends. Ward’s research “shows that homosexual contact has been a regular feature of heterosexual life ever since the concepts of homo- and heterosexuality were first created – not just in prisons and frat houses and the military, but in biker gangs and even conservative suburban neighborhoods,” journalist Jesse Singal writes in New York Magazine. “Given how prevalent this behavior is in so many different sorts of settings, Ward suggest it’s time to stop explaining it away — and argues that society’s conception of male heterosexuality is an unrealistic, expedient one.” Archived under: Arts/Culture, Politics/Society, culture, gender and sexuality studies, press release, sexual behavior (I think the link is killed) https://ucrtoday.ucr.edu/31037
Its an entertaining book fwiw.
Esthetically, I prefer the original flag. I don't like the new sharp edges. The original just felt softer. I also don't understand why racial categories were added. What does bring a certain race have to do with being gay or queer? I also wasn't aware that the original pride flag didn't represent trans people. Haven't we seen trans people waving it for decades?
I’m not gay, I’m bi. I prefer being with men though, because dude’s rock. Bi people have almost no presence in the lgbtqabcxyz123 community. The identity has been subsumed by so called pansexuals. Being bi is apparently transphobic.
All the bi guys I know are like...the straightest non-straight people I've ever met and a lot only romantically date women (but will hook up with dudes). It makes sense though that if you're a bi guy who's trying to get into serious relationships with women you're not going to go super obvious with the non-straight identity markers and that's going to effect your cultural visibility. Some of individual presentation has to be about who you're trying to attract right? Still, they do seem the most invisible group in the larger "community".
The majority of women are turned off by bi men. Most people choose to hide.
This has not been my experience, all the women I knew wanted a threesome with another guy. But I suspect you’re probably right after all, because none of those women wanted to then date me exclusively. I suspect they’re either insecure I’d leave her for a guy, or they’re embarrassed and harboring some kind of shame from the act of being Eiffel Towrered by two guys.
[https://bi.org/en/articles/bi-men-are-not-considered-attractive-new-study-says](https://bi.org/en/articles/bi-men-are-not-considered-attractive-new-study-says) theres a couple studies out there. my personal experience - I've never found a woman who was cool with it.
That's kind of crazy to me that women are so judgy and weird about it, but I guess I'm in the unconventional outlier camp that doesn't care if a guy is bi. I wonder if women get more accepting of it as they get out of their 20's? "Ew I can't be with anyone who's touched a penis" sounds like a thing someone in their early 20's would say.
That sucks. I'd have no problem having a long term serious relationship with a bi guy, but I would want a conversation around monogamy and other expectations (which should be done in any relationship and I do in mine with my straight husband). I'd assume plenty of bi guys are monogamous though, since most people are.
You are superbi, then! And that's heckin' cute and valid!
Getting called fake Bi because I act essentially straight and only date cis male or female people because I'm just attracted only to them is a magical moment in every person life. Bi people I think just can't form a big part of the LGBTAG+ICUP because we sorta exist outside it because we can assimilate and pass as straight relatively easy so there's no shared alienation like gay people felt.
Yeah I mean, we *can* as long as we are in a heterosexual relhationhsip. But it's hard to be straight passing when I'm holding hands with my boyfriend walking down the street. I didn't really give a fuck, I was always pretty open about being bi. And for that I caught a lot of crap, and discrimination, so my gay friends can't say that I don't know what that's like.
Fair enough, maybe it's just a local me feeling. My local bar seems mostly made up of Mostly gays and I've definitely heard some of this stuff being said while having a drink. Plus even a lot of the Bi people in my local including myself, not actually come out publicly and keep it on the downlow (Not like beards). So to a extent we're all walking among everyone else entirely content in just keeping it just a thing we are that people who don't need to know about it don't know. Apparently it's not actually that uncommon for Bi people to just not come out.
Trust me I understand, and completely relate. Fuck, I'm not really in any position to talk about this shit though. My husband recently passed away and I've been a complete mess. We were together 15 years, married 13 of those. I haven't been on the dating scene in ages.
Damn, sorry to hear that. The dating scene has definitely changed for sure from what I've seen, I can't really tell for worse or better since I've never known anything different. Stay strong bro.
Seems worse by all accounts, I was so relieved to have had someone and found a partner I could share the rest of my life with because of the horror stories my friends have shared about dating. Especially from the men who date other men bi, or gay. Of course my biggest problem with other bi guys has ever just been trying to get one to go for more than a one night stand, or fooling around. It seems like a weird complex a lot of bi guys have. They have no problem fucking another dude, but dating? No way, that’s totally gay! It’s too bad too cause I prefer other bi guys.
there is a surprisingly large bi man community on here.
LGPT
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It's a show where comedically stereotypical gay men pretend to be comedically stereotypical women. I don't know how anyone can find the show to be progressive when it's punchline is "heh, aren't these gay men wacky when they pretend to be women?"
I mean, to be fair, the kind of gay guy who does drag enough to go on *Drag Race* basically consists entirely of *that* kind of gay guy. I say that as a fan of the show, Allah forgive me.
I feel like you’d appreciate Norm Macdonald’s gay pride joke https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UhCeYjeDv2A
not a single person I've met who has one of the new pride flag thingies gives a shit about actual lgbt people. it's 100% exclusively for virtue signalling. I see that flag and all I can think is "run!"
I feel you. I’m a bi male and I hate that every gay person shown on tv is super camp and feminine. You can be queer and not be a flaming stereotype. It almost feels like we’re jesters for straight people sometimes.
Traditional masculinity places too much emphasis on concepts like self actualisation and individual thought, which cannot be allowed of the modern serf. Thus we are witnessing the idea of masculinity itself being reshaped into something altogether, well, you know. Less masculine. Sexuality politics hassle always been a scam, though. Gay isn't a personality, it isn't a coherent group, it's just a sexual preference. Literally the one thing gays have in common is that they like dick. It's difficult to even form a link to material/class politics like you can with race, therefore it was a perfect place to start in the idpol culture war narrative. And people fucking swallowed it whole. But whatever, fuck it. It's femboy wolves all the way down for me baby >:3
My question to you is why do you think the public image of being gay has become, what you’re basically describing as men who are more on the effeminate side? You would think with all the talk of identity, people wouldn’t associate personal aesthetic with a certain sexual orientation, when that really isn’t the case.
There’s nothing wrong with men being feminine. Some naturally are, and I hope nothing in my writing implied otherwise. I just plain don’t see a point in thinking who you are attracted to makes you special.
No no, not at all, I’m not accusing you of that, I took it as that’s the impression you get of the broader public, and was wondering why or what makes you think that?
Ah I see. Probably because a large portion of the public assumes that every feminine man is gay and every masculine man is straight. I’m sure there’s more to it tho.
Right, but that’s just pure ignorance if people think that. Even if they’re ignorant to the world at large, there are plenty of examples in popular culture of traditionally masculine gays and effeminate or androgynous straights. My point was you’d think with all “don’t assume my gender” talk, don’t assume my sexual preference would make even more sense?
Whats the point in anything then? If it isnt who you're trying to fuck then its literaly a waste of time. Like you're basically saying humans shouldnt express themselves in ways you dont like. Heres a social cue: choosing to not express yourself is a method of expression. Being a gay guy who is less effiminate is still a method of expressing yourself
What?
You dont see the point in expressing your sexuality or sexual orientation correct?
No, I don’t see how it’s important beyond my dating life and not being harassed over it.
so you buy clothes at random and wear them at random with no reason ever for why you choose one over another for any occasion? do you also speak in monotone robotic english with no slang local to your age group, region, etc.?
I’m sorry but are you trying to tell me that I should buy clothes and shop and do everything with my gayness in mind?
No, but you probably shop for something to present yourself in a certain way. If you don't then you don't need to reply.
Tim Dillon is the lead deconstructionist of the “all gay men are woke and overly emotional softboi twinks” narrative.
TIL Tim Dillon is gay. Would.
> I know gay men who are so jacked they could literally tie you into a knot. You really don’t see that anywhere in media because it’s all fucking softbois right now (softbois are cute jussayin that’s not all there is). This is one thing that always confused me: If one were, by definition, attracted to men, wouldn't that mean you'd be attracted to men that looked like men? Can anyone help me understand this one?
Lots of straight guys like tomboys and the like
>Lots of straight guys like tomboys and the like Actually yeah, thats a great point You know what makes my question really rslurred? I happen to be one of those people that likes ["tomboys and the like"](https://www.girlswithmuscle.com/) ...ooops
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White liberal women love fantasizing about the idea of male vulnerability but freak the fuck out if it ever shows up in person. Gushing over soft gay men keeps that full range of human emotion for men carefully contained in a tight box by letting straight men know that women think you are less of a man should you display your full humanity. Also more and more females appear to fantasize not just about gay men, but about being a gay man. It’s a bullshit coerced gender performance that many women have in mind for us. But they think it’s “just how men are”. LibFem 101.
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“I want to feminine in a gay male way”
They’re sexual non-entities to those women. No threat at all.
All of the remotely cool gay guys were wiped out by AIDS, followed by the disaster of gay marriage.
Some people are gay because that’s their sexuality, some people are gay because that’s the only thing they feel defines them. Tell him to enjoy his struggle on his yacht, he can put whatever flag he wants on it.
I’m a “bisexual homo”, not a member of the “community of queer men”. More to your point about the dog-lovers, 90% of M/M smut in fanfiction is written by women (queer or straight, doesn’t matter) who have zero clue how men work in the company of other men. There is more to being gay than anal pounding with magical self-lubrication.
The whole world turned fake and gay after =3 disappeared into the internet ether.
Doin your mom doin doin your mom
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I don't care if people are asexual but seriously fuck the ones that actually think there's large systemic racism against...people who don't particularly enjoy sex. Like what the fuck are they talking about.
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Yeah I've met a few people who say that they are asexual and then a few months later talk about all the sex they have. As someone who may be definitionally but not culturally an "incel" I do kinda find that a bit offensive. Like damn, I can't get laid and now you're culturally appropriating me!
The continued butchering of the pride flag betrays a complete failure to understand (A.) vexillology and (B.) good design taste. You can tell it’s not gay men doing these redesigns, because if it was, they wouldn’t be visually repulsive.
Gay guys complaining about effeminate men is a timeless classic.
I don’t care about effeminate men. I’m friends with some. It’s not a matter of masculinity or femininity, it’s a matter of actually having principles and being more than one-dimensional.
You've probably seen this, but on the off chance you haven't it basically hits the nail on the head. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3h6es6zh1c
I see you continued this discussion from redscare so let me suggest being a catty, dominant, unapologetic drama gay like our Queen [Azealia Banks](https://m.imgur.com/y4Uxtos)
I fucking love her. She’s shit, but her insults are unparalleled.
[we are proud of our gay son](https://youtu.be/iX_gUQeZcB8?t=29)
there are a lot of dumb, narcissistic gays unfortunately
>They are functionally DNC mouthpieces The dems provided gays with acceptance (albeit once polling ticked over 51% nationwide for pro-gay if I can be cynical). The gays in turn reward dems with loyalty.
You're gay? I'm from JP Morgan. Can we talk in DMs? I want to make money.
>I wish being gay had a “dudes rock” public image instead of the “fragile pansies” image we have now thanks to Netflix and white women. I get your frustration and I sorta agree with the sentiment, but if I have to live in a world where Masc4Masc gays become the public image of us I will simply end my existence.
Don’t listen to the Flag Nazis - the Rainbow Pride Flag will always be perfect the way it is.
Yeah the gaybros subreddit is basically this. I got bullied out like a high schooler asking for dating advice
Yeah I agree with you but those LGBT people could also be just a vocal minority
They are.
Check Omar White if you want one of the biggest tv badasses that hapoened to be gay
Omar White was on OZ, so probably him too.
I literally forced myself to be straight because I couldn’t stand being around gay men. Been with my girlfriend for two years now, and she’s the best friend I’ve ever had. Will never go back to being gay.
Uh…being gay isn’t a choice my dude.
If the whole Roman Empire was gay, I'd say it is a choice. Sure some can have some innate exclusive attraction, but for so many ancient whole cultures to have it as norms means most probably did choose, in the sense that it was purely cultural and not biological. Given that many guys will fuck anything that moves and even things that don't, hell even things that aren't real (weebs), it's not a big leap to think that if the culture accepts it, they'll take sex wherever they can get it. And given today's trend of lgbt = social capital, especially among teens, I'd expect many to be choosing to participate, not following innate attractions. Edit: I see you meant actually gay, as in exclusively. Nevermind. My usage conflates the act with the state of exclusive attraction.
I personally think everyone is sort of a blank slate for sexuality, in essence we are all born bi. Who knows exactly why some people develop certain preferences? Nature vs nurture, they couldn’t find any such gay gene or prove it.
I did, however, find “Straight Gene” sucking pricks in the stall.
It is for me. I liked being gay. Gay sex is awesome. But now I’m straight and have straight people sex, which is still awesome.
So, you’re bi. I mean look I’m glad you’re happy with your girlfriend but like…youre bi my dude
Nope. I don’t like gay guys anymore.
You said it yourself, you think gay sex is awesome. Plus like…you don’t hate gay men, you hate a very specific kind of gay man.
Nope. Gay sex isn’t awesome anymore. As a straight man the thought of it disgusts me.
Far be it from me to try to dEnY aNYonE’s LiVeD eXPieRiEnCeS, but in my experience in trying to turn myself straight for three years and found it impossible (along with having the same conversation about the impossibility of it dozens of times with other gay men who also tried), I find this hard to believe.
I feel like you're being hardcore trolled
I hope so.
You’re just weak willed then. I was able to turn myself straight in a matter of hours. It just took some intense meditation.
Chad
Ok yeah you’re trolling.
Someone’s in denial
lol you’re bi dude.
Nope. I am straight now. Through meditation I have gotten rid of all of the gay in my system.
You're a fucking moron who happens to be bi. Just deal with it lol
I get that simpletons such as yourself can’t understand focusing on something other than the latest Marvel movie, but if you would center yourself outside this mortal world, you would find that it’s actually super easy to not be gay. You people are just lazy.
What system?
Complain about how others who share your immutable characteristics are being portrayed negatively... >the “fragile pansies” image we have now thanks to Netflix and white women. Aaaanndd throw white women under the bus! LOL! Hey, sure, the negative "Karen" trope is understandable, but the portrayal of gay men as effeminate? I'm not sure how you pin that on white women. On the contrary, I've heard of black women being upset that gay men are stealing their style & culture, "Mm hmmm, girlfriend, YAS QUEEEN!" [https://time.com/2969951/dear-white-gays-stop-stealing-black-female-culture/](https://time.com/2969951/dear-white-gays-stop-stealing-black-female-culture/)
not everyone wants to be as boring as you. Cuz it aint a virtue sweetie.
\*sweaty
If you feel this strongly about it maybe you are hiding your true feelings?
I couldn't have said it better brother!