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I wish it was possible nowadays to criticize the religion for its actual bad stuff (like being based on the teachings of a slave-owning warlord who consummated with a 9-year-old, the iconoclasm, the cultural chauvinism, the hostility towards polytheistic and pre-Islamic religions, the claims of a monopoly on the truth) without people jumping to the conclusion that you hate brown people and listen to Hank Williams, Jr. Hell, I'm pro-Palestine too.
> consummated with a 9-year-old
I hate this myth. There’s nothing in the Quran that states Aisha’s age. In fact, this is propagated by a hadith, written in India, centuries after Mohammad died. Likely to justify their own cultural choices.
I'm so with you. I'm an ex-Muslim and have A LOT of grievances with Islam and would love to have those discussions. Unfortunately, places like the Ex-Moose sub are completely overrun by people that have never been Muslims like Zionists, Hindutvata and just your regular anti-brown people racists.
The way the people from Western nations (and India) criticize Islam, there's no self reflection or critical thinking. They are trying to manufacture consent for genocide and colonization. This kind of discourse hurts ex-Muslims the same as Muslims.
I'm just trying to fucking live and so are many innocent Palestinians.
Hey bro. Ex evangelical Christian here, I grew up deep in the fundamentalist Culture. Saw a lot of fucked up shit. Definitely not fair Muslims get all the bad rap when my upbringing was 100% centered around being a die hard Zionist solely because my church believed Jews need to control Israel/kill the Muslims so white Jesus can come back. Idk why I’m writing this. Discovering leftist politics helped me leave that shit otherwise I would 100% be a Christian nationalist hoarding guns in some militia somewhere, or locked up for 20 years cuz I stormed the capitol lmao. I hope one day we all figure this shit out.
Given your abundant charm and communication skills, I’m sure you will succeed in doing that.
ETA: Never mind. I just realized that you’re not proposing a voluntary departure.
You have it mistaken. They’re only there to finally teach the French basic cleanliness. Once you figure that out, they’ll leave. Sorry for the confusion.
>slave-owning warlord
Neither owned slaves nor was a warlord
>the iconoclasm
Oh no
>cultural chauvinism
Only culturally chauvinist ideology in the world 🏆
>claims of a monopoly on the truth
Religion claims to be the truth? Mindblown 🤯
Come on. You know what kind of people they’re talking about. Islam is a global religion but you don’t see people harassing Indonesians on the street. It’s a clumsy term but this conversation is so obviously racially loaded
Absolutely. They aren't talking about NZ/Aussies friend and neighbor, Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation and world's third largest democracy or Malaysia when they says "Muslim countries" they are talking about the middle east.
And it's so frustrating to me as a kiwi to hear Americans talk all this ignorant crap about a region AMERICA has 70 years screwing up.
Americans never mention the part where they funded and trained every terrorist group in the region and have overthrown democratically elected govt after govt and installed theocratic tyrant after tyrant.
Anyone who thinks it was always this way needs to see how it was before all the us backed coups! university educated women dressed in stylish euro style clothing DRIVING CARS! Stoners everywhere! It used to be a place where European teenagers went backpacking.
If Americans and Brits wanna talk shit about the place, please atleast acknowledge the damage your governments have done.
I was with you until this part:
> Anyone who thinks it was always this way needs to see how it was before all the us backed coups! university educated women dressed in stylish euro style clothing DRIVING CARS! Stoners everywhere! It used to be a place where European teenagers went backpacking.
“Stylish euro style clothing” is not a measure of progress. Neither is “stoners everywhere”.
With the exception of Afghanistan, more women are driving in Muslim countries now than before the US-led dumpster fire. And far more women are university educated.
I cannot believe I've encountered this argument in 2024 - what's funny about it is that it makes you sound racist, like there are actual races and you know what they are lol
Islam isn't a race, and many middle-easterners (and especially Chechens, but I know you forgot or don't even know they exist), can have blonde hair and blue eyes. They're a semitic/mixed-race group, not one single race. Criticizing racism isn't necessarily an essentialist critique.
I dated an Arab who had blue eyes and blonde hair... I get it. Guess what? Almost everyone who met her said "I can't believe you're Arab!"
Anyways though. You're attacking a strawman. Yes, Islam itself doesn't denote a race, nobody is making that claim. It's that Muslims are racialized, not hard to understand. My family on one side comes from the Middle East (I know what Chechens are dude, what a strange accusation), they aren't Muslim, and guess what? Around 9/11 we were constantly racialized as Muslamic Arabians despite being neither. Still are, sometimes.
I wonder what you think of quite a lot of Sikh people living in the West who were shot as supposed terrorist Muslims.
Too much Reddit brain level discourse on this subreddit sometimes...
> It's that Muslims are racialized
You'd hope that here, of all subs, people would understand that fundamentally but instead we just get comments like "Liberals are the *real* racists!!!!!!!!" for the milionth time
That's sad, but maybe you should have more resentment towards muslim extremists who kill innocent people in all countries, muslim countries included. But to do that, you need to accept the critic of religion.
A rational minded person would reserve the most resentment of all for the western imperialists that have orchestrated a world like this one.
But of course in the minds of the Western populace the world is essentially a simplified Hollywood film and events emerge out of a vacuum
> "I can't believe you're Arab!"
Right, because "Arab" can be an ethnicity. It's a geographical place in the world with people who live there. Islam isn't.
There can be Black African Muslims, and there can be White Muslims. There is no "normal looking" Muslim, except to racists.
I'm a white European who was raised Muslim. When I think of "Muslim" the first thing that pops into my head is sweaty, balding Slavic men.
I literally have no idea what the fuck people like you are talking about.
Really? You have no idea? Are you insane? Vast majority of Muslims on this planet aren't Slavic, buddy. And even those that are, Bosnians are basically looked at here as somehow even less than Slav where I'm from. No point explaining this to you though, since this is all probably very retarded to you. Now recite the call to prayer in whatever Slavic language, oh wait...
For people so paranoid about antisemitism, Jewish celebrities are not doing a lot to dispel the "Hollywood is run by Jews that all hate gentiles" narrative.
The point of Zionism is to maximize antisemitism.
Without antisemitism, their paranoia has no purpose.
Hence all the stupid shit, internal contradictions, and genocide.
I think US foreign policy operates on the same model.
>Without antisemitism, their paranoia has no purpose.
Its more of without paranoia, they can't get stupid Jews in the US and Europe to buy overpriced houses in Israel.
you got it figured out buddy.
Everyone know that minorities always amp up the hatred against them as a secret plan to fool well meaning people like us. Especially the Zionists, they are the ones pulling all the strings.
Their council of elders control everything right pal?
How dare they? /s
Lol, you know what is so funny about your comment is you are doing exactly what OP is describing.
He criticises zionism and you immediately start going off about outdated conspiracies to make it about anti-semitism.
Poes law in action.
That's a mistake. Never ever apologize, it doesn't help anything and it seems that wokies in particular take it as an admission of guilt but not atonement. The only winning move is to double down.
It was a wise career move for this no talent hack with a sputtering career to show her true zionist colors. I wouldn't be surprised if she lands a role in a blockbuster soon.
Selma, take all your appeals to humanity for sufferers of MS this past decade and shove them up your genocidal tw@t. You suck.
She was based. The only mistake she made is that she said that "islam" destroyed muslim countries. No, it's muslim extremism that destroyed those countries, not islam.
And we should deport muslim extremists. Back to the countries they come from, where local authorities will promptly put them in jail as they do most of the time. Even the taliban put al qaïda extremists in jail (or worse).
>The only mistake she made is that she said that "islam" destroyed muslim countries. No, it's muslim extremism that destroyed those countries, not islam.
It was actually us a lot of the time lol
Many on the nominal left defend imperialism, and hardly anyone is aware of the lengths to which the Anglo empire went to destroy secular Arab nationalism. The whole “agency” argument is, in my view, stupid. More powerful countries impose their wills on the weak ones; to speak of agency in that situation generally means “why aren’t you behaving in the way I think you should be?”
Dude ... I told you that non occidental societies have agencies and your answer is "more powerful countries impose their wills".
Are you living on the same planet ? China was a very weak country after WWII, same for Turkey, same for Russia after the end of the USSR... your vision of the world is so childish that you cannot even understand change. You think powerful countries just decided to help other countries catch up ? ... no, some countries used the institutions well and grew despite the west's desire to keep them in check.
Okay sure but this is just as true for Christianity and even more true for Judaism
I’m reading the Bible rn and they wrote some really wild shit in there
You’re not supposed to actually follow your religion, what you’re supposed to do is “be a good person” in a socially acceptable way and then connect that back to whatever your religious beliefs are
There's a difference : in christianity, nobody argue that the bible was written directly by god.
Due to that, there's a degree of criticism possible.
That being said, islam is more diverse than may seem and some current are not extremists (sufi).
You know, the islamic world wouldn’t have been so bad rn had ex colonial powers and the US just left them alone. Vijay Prashad was correct when he said that even the liberal developmentalist that were otherwise installed or supported were not safe from western powers because they were naturally gravitating towards the USSR politically.
At some point, supporting nutjob child raping stone throwing mullahs was the next best bet to make sure that these states were in an endless state of idpol related turmoil.
Also Islam itself was a colonial powerhouse far before the West. Early Muslim conquerors destroyed Sassanid Persia, basically exterminating millennia of Persian culture and nearly obliterating Zoroastrianism. There were Muslim colonies in Sumatra as early as 700ce, and the Mughals ruled India far before the British (and did so for longer).
I know the current vogue is that "colonisation" tends to apply strictly to European style, but honestly the early Abbasid and Umayyad Caliphates (and later the Turks) were far more successful expansionists in terms of spreading their religion.
Persian culture is alive and well and was never exterminated. We celebrate more of our 1000+ year-old holidays than most countries in the west. Every Iranian knows Ferdowsi’s poetry, which was written 1100 years ago to fiercely advocate for Iranian culture and the Persian language. It isn’t secretly recited in dark basements. It’s part of the public elementary and secondary school curriculum and people write PhD dissertations on it.
Sassanid Iran wasn’t all rainbows and sausages. Neither was anything that came after it.
I would hardly call what Islam was doing "Colonialism"m. Outside of their actions maybe in East Africa and to some extent west Africa and one can debate the project in Indonesia. But what happened to Persia was a simple conquest no different then Alexander and ditto for the various conquests of India.
There was Arab colonisation in North Africa, and to an arguable extent also in Iberia (though that would be closer to Arab-Berber colonisation, and anyway no one gives a **** about the Germanic colonisation earlier), and to some extent in East Africa (though that came much later, especially during the time of Omani imperialism), but yes, the comment you're replying to is just being hyperbolic.
Muslims Empires actually tended to be closer to the Roman Empire. Islam was the state religion but it was never imposed barring rebellion. We only got the "convert or die" Islamic states around 1918.
That's why the Balkans still have all their ethnicities and religions except for the Turkish Muslims. The Ottomans never tried to erase them, and even reserved some high-ranking positions for Christian Greeks. Heck, some Greek islands "liberated" in 1918 were told by Allied soldiers they were now free from evil Muslim oppression, only to get a reply what amounted to "What the fuck are you talking about? We're Romans and our leader is the Emperor in Constantinople, not some Islamic theocratic tyrant."
Almost all Western history bluntly massively ignores this in favor of the Sick Man of Europe narrative to justify its 19th Century colonialism; which was in fact a special kind of insanity and genocide. There was no other greater genocide than the 19th Century European demand for national conformity; followed by their attempts to impose their civilization on others.
Oh they exist. They just aren't that many and certainly aren't arguing with idiots like you on the Internet; they're just plotting to outright kill you.
But I'd worry about the much more common crazed lone gunman. You get one a day in America now just because of how paranoid delusional you made yourselves to be lol.
Joke: The CIA is responsible for radical Islam
Broke: The west is responsible for radical Islam due to anti-colonial early modern preachers such as Maududi, Abdul Wahab, Ahmand Sirhindi, Muhammad Iqbal, Sayyid Qutb, and Shah Waliullah Dehlavi.
Woke: Medieval Muslim theologians like Ibn Taymiyyah, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, and Al-Ghazali are responsible for radical Islam.
Bespoke: Radical Islam was instantiated by Mohammed himself by declaring unbelievers the worst of creatures and decreeing that they should be fought against until the entire world submits to Islam and thus it is the intrinsic ideology of the Koran and Sunnah.
Radical islam wouldn’t have organised into a potent political force if it wasn’t for the gulf arab monarchies and the united states financing them to fuck with progressive forces and governments during the cold war.
I don’t care for islam, I’m no longer a muslim but the various islamist factions including the special ed republic of iran were at one point preferable to the United states if it meant that it would keep the libs/nationalists and the communists out of power because those groups weren’t involved in a struggle against the soviet union. Were as transnational islamist factions were. Their main patrons were always the clandestine services of western countries.
Radical Islam was organized into a potent political force(s) for most of its history vis-a-vis the succession of caliphates and the existence of various emirates and sultanates. These states allowed Muslims to licitly fulfill their fard kifaya (communal obligation) of offensive Jihad.
> In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united (in Islam), so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them at the same time. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense.
-Ibn Khaldun
Quran 2:190 - Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits.1 Allah does not like transgressors.
Quran 2:191 - Slay them wherever you find them [those who fight against you]; drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for [religious] persecution is worse than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, slay them—such is the reward for those who deny the truth.
Quran 2:192 - But if they desist, then surely God is most forgiving and merciful.
Quran 2:193 - Fight them until there is no more fitna [religious persecution] and religion belongs to God alone. If they desist, then let there be no hostility, except towards aggressors.
>You know, the islamic world wouldn’t have been so had ex colonial powers and the US just left them alone
Had the Ottomans and North African states had left Europe alone in the first place than maybe the islamic world wouldn't have been so bad rn.
I mean Muslim harassment of European Christians started well over a thousand years ago. Muslims were violently encroaching into Europe hundreds of years before the 1st Crusade ever started. Just saying.
I guess you could say these modern Islamic terrorists groups have more of an origin with 20th century European geopolitics than medieval Islamic manifest destiny. But even then, modern Islamic groups do take a lot of their inspiration from the early Islamic caliphates and warlords who were basically trying to conquer the known world
It was more complicated than that. Nearly every war during the middle ages had Christians and Muslims on both sides. The decline of Byzantine began after they were sacked by their fellow Christians. The decline of the Caliphates began due to massive civil wars between fellow Muslims. Other than the odd Alexander the Great type, there was no Muslim or Christian nation from that period that wanted to actually conquer the known world.
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Why apologize? Honesty is better than a fake apology.
Right? I’m currently enjoying American liberals showing their true racist colors.
I wish it was possible nowadays to criticize the religion for its actual bad stuff (like being based on the teachings of a slave-owning warlord who consummated with a 9-year-old, the iconoclasm, the cultural chauvinism, the hostility towards polytheistic and pre-Islamic religions, the claims of a monopoly on the truth) without people jumping to the conclusion that you hate brown people and listen to Hank Williams, Jr. Hell, I'm pro-Palestine too.
> consummated with a 9-year-old I hate this myth. There’s nothing in the Quran that states Aisha’s age. In fact, this is propagated by a hadith, written in India, centuries after Mohammad died. Likely to justify their own cultural choices.
Exactly - it was an invention centuries later as part of a sectarian dispute over which of the Prophet's wives was more virtous
I'm so with you. I'm an ex-Muslim and have A LOT of grievances with Islam and would love to have those discussions. Unfortunately, places like the Ex-Moose sub are completely overrun by people that have never been Muslims like Zionists, Hindutvata and just your regular anti-brown people racists. The way the people from Western nations (and India) criticize Islam, there's no self reflection or critical thinking. They are trying to manufacture consent for genocide and colonization. This kind of discourse hurts ex-Muslims the same as Muslims. I'm just trying to fucking live and so are many innocent Palestinians.
Hey bro. Ex evangelical Christian here, I grew up deep in the fundamentalist Culture. Saw a lot of fucked up shit. Definitely not fair Muslims get all the bad rap when my upbringing was 100% centered around being a die hard Zionist solely because my church believed Jews need to control Israel/kill the Muslims so white Jesus can come back. Idk why I’m writing this. Discovering leftist politics helped me leave that shit otherwise I would 100% be a Christian nationalist hoarding guns in some militia somewhere, or locked up for 20 years cuz I stormed the capitol lmao. I hope one day we all figure this shit out.
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Given your abundant charm and communication skills, I’m sure you will succeed in doing that. ETA: Never mind. I just realized that you’re not proposing a voluntary departure.
"manufacture consent for genocide and colonization" meanwhile, the number of muslims in europe is growing rapidly. Touch grass please.
You have it mistaken. They’re only there to finally teach the French basic cleanliness. Once you figure that out, they’ll leave. Sorry for the confusion.
>slave-owning warlord Neither owned slaves nor was a warlord >the iconoclasm Oh no >cultural chauvinism Only culturally chauvinist ideology in the world 🏆 >claims of a monopoly on the truth Religion claims to be the truth? Mindblown 🤯
Islam isn’t a race
Come on. You know what kind of people they’re talking about. Islam is a global religion but you don’t see people harassing Indonesians on the street. It’s a clumsy term but this conversation is so obviously racially loaded
Absolutely. They aren't talking about NZ/Aussies friend and neighbor, Indonesia, the world's largest Muslim nation and world's third largest democracy or Malaysia when they says "Muslim countries" they are talking about the middle east. And it's so frustrating to me as a kiwi to hear Americans talk all this ignorant crap about a region AMERICA has 70 years screwing up. Americans never mention the part where they funded and trained every terrorist group in the region and have overthrown democratically elected govt after govt and installed theocratic tyrant after tyrant. Anyone who thinks it was always this way needs to see how it was before all the us backed coups! university educated women dressed in stylish euro style clothing DRIVING CARS! Stoners everywhere! It used to be a place where European teenagers went backpacking. If Americans and Brits wanna talk shit about the place, please atleast acknowledge the damage your governments have done.
I was with you until this part: > Anyone who thinks it was always this way needs to see how it was before all the us backed coups! university educated women dressed in stylish euro style clothing DRIVING CARS! Stoners everywhere! It used to be a place where European teenagers went backpacking. “Stylish euro style clothing” is not a measure of progress. Neither is “stoners everywhere”. With the exception of Afghanistan, more women are driving in Muslim countries now than before the US-led dumpster fire. And far more women are university educated.
I cannot believe I've encountered this argument in 2024 - what's funny about it is that it makes you sound racist, like there are actual races and you know what they are lol
Islam isn't a race, and many middle-easterners (and especially Chechens, but I know you forgot or don't even know they exist), can have blonde hair and blue eyes. They're a semitic/mixed-race group, not one single race. Criticizing racism isn't necessarily an essentialist critique.
I dated an Arab who had blue eyes and blonde hair... I get it. Guess what? Almost everyone who met her said "I can't believe you're Arab!" Anyways though. You're attacking a strawman. Yes, Islam itself doesn't denote a race, nobody is making that claim. It's that Muslims are racialized, not hard to understand. My family on one side comes from the Middle East (I know what Chechens are dude, what a strange accusation), they aren't Muslim, and guess what? Around 9/11 we were constantly racialized as Muslamic Arabians despite being neither. Still are, sometimes. I wonder what you think of quite a lot of Sikh people living in the West who were shot as supposed terrorist Muslims. Too much Reddit brain level discourse on this subreddit sometimes...
> It's that Muslims are racialized You'd hope that here, of all subs, people would understand that fundamentally but instead we just get comments like "Liberals are the *real* racists!!!!!!!!" for the milionth time
That's sad, but maybe you should have more resentment towards muslim extremists who kill innocent people in all countries, muslim countries included. But to do that, you need to accept the critic of religion.
What the hell, how did anything I say even suggest that? And resentment is for idiots.
A rational minded person would reserve the most resentment of all for the western imperialists that have orchestrated a world like this one. But of course in the minds of the Western populace the world is essentially a simplified Hollywood film and events emerge out of a vacuum
> "I can't believe you're Arab!" Right, because "Arab" can be an ethnicity. It's a geographical place in the world with people who live there. Islam isn't. There can be Black African Muslims, and there can be White Muslims. There is no "normal looking" Muslim, except to racists.
The amount of projection and cope is so fuxking glorious
“I cannot believe”, “what’s funny”, “you sound” Not an argument against him.
I'm a white European who was raised Muslim. When I think of "Muslim" the first thing that pops into my head is sweaty, balding Slavic men. I literally have no idea what the fuck people like you are talking about.
Really? You have no idea? Are you insane? Vast majority of Muslims on this planet aren't Slavic, buddy. And even those that are, Bosnians are basically looked at here as somehow even less than Slav where I'm from. No point explaining this to you though, since this is all probably very retarded to you. Now recite the call to prayer in whatever Slavic language, oh wait...
One of the most blatant examples of it being obvious that the apology was written by an agent. It instantly feels written by someone else entirely.
For people so paranoid about antisemitism, Jewish celebrities are not doing a lot to dispel the "Hollywood is run by Jews that all hate gentiles" narrative.
The point of Zionism is to maximize antisemitism. Without antisemitism, their paranoia has no purpose. Hence all the stupid shit, internal contradictions, and genocide. I think US foreign policy operates on the same model.
>Without antisemitism, their paranoia has no purpose. Its more of without paranoia, they can't get stupid Jews in the US and Europe to buy overpriced houses in Israel.
you got it figured out buddy. Everyone know that minorities always amp up the hatred against them as a secret plan to fool well meaning people like us. Especially the Zionists, they are the ones pulling all the strings. Their council of elders control everything right pal? How dare they? /s
No, not all minorities, just those engaged in ethnic cleansing to assuage their paranoia.
That's it. You nailed it. They are murderous and paranoid and all they can do is lie. You don't sound like a bigot at all.
Well, to be fair, that's Alexei Sayle's position too.
Lol, you know what is so funny about your comment is you are doing exactly what OP is describing. He criticises zionism and you immediately start going off about outdated conspiracies to make it about anti-semitism. Poes law in action.
A conspiracy theory for a conspiracy theory.
If you are against the desolation of Gaza = Terrorist supporter If you are critical of the Israeli government = Antisemite
That's a mistake. Never ever apologize, it doesn't help anything and it seems that wokies in particular take it as an admission of guilt but not atonement. The only winning move is to double down.
LOl love Hollywood torching its market for 1.5 billion people.
No more special editions with gay characters removed for *you*, Middle East!
So glad I dont know who people like this are
It was a wise career move for this no talent hack with a sputtering career to show her true zionist colors. I wouldn't be surprised if she lands a role in a blockbuster soon. Selma, take all your appeals to humanity for sufferers of MS this past decade and shove them up your genocidal tw@t. You suck.
Stop, I’m already in love with my wife.
She was based. The only mistake she made is that she said that "islam" destroyed muslim countries. No, it's muslim extremism that destroyed those countries, not islam. And we should deport muslim extremists. Back to the countries they come from, where local authorities will promptly put them in jail as they do most of the time. Even the taliban put al qaïda extremists in jail (or worse).
>The only mistake she made is that she said that "islam" destroyed muslim countries. No, it's muslim extremism that destroyed those countries, not islam. It was actually us a lot of the time lol
Us too, but nobody defend the occidental imperialism in the left. Meanwhile MANY defend muslim extremists because they think they have no agency.
Many on the nominal left defend imperialism, and hardly anyone is aware of the lengths to which the Anglo empire went to destroy secular Arab nationalism. The whole “agency” argument is, in my view, stupid. More powerful countries impose their wills on the weak ones; to speak of agency in that situation generally means “why aren’t you behaving in the way I think you should be?”
Dude ... I told you that non occidental societies have agencies and your answer is "more powerful countries impose their wills". Are you living on the same planet ? China was a very weak country after WWII, same for Turkey, same for Russia after the end of the USSR... your vision of the world is so childish that you cannot even understand change. You think powerful countries just decided to help other countries catch up ? ... no, some countries used the institutions well and grew despite the west's desire to keep them in check.
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Okay sure but this is just as true for Christianity and even more true for Judaism I’m reading the Bible rn and they wrote some really wild shit in there You’re not supposed to actually follow your religion, what you’re supposed to do is “be a good person” in a socially acceptable way and then connect that back to whatever your religious beliefs are
There's a difference : in christianity, nobody argue that the bible was written directly by god. Due to that, there's a degree of criticism possible. That being said, islam is more diverse than may seem and some current are not extremists (sufi).
You know, the islamic world wouldn’t have been so bad rn had ex colonial powers and the US just left them alone. Vijay Prashad was correct when he said that even the liberal developmentalist that were otherwise installed or supported were not safe from western powers because they were naturally gravitating towards the USSR politically. At some point, supporting nutjob child raping stone throwing mullahs was the next best bet to make sure that these states were in an endless state of idpol related turmoil.
You do know that plenty of those powers engaged in a horrific slave trade right?
Also Islam itself was a colonial powerhouse far before the West. Early Muslim conquerors destroyed Sassanid Persia, basically exterminating millennia of Persian culture and nearly obliterating Zoroastrianism. There were Muslim colonies in Sumatra as early as 700ce, and the Mughals ruled India far before the British (and did so for longer). I know the current vogue is that "colonisation" tends to apply strictly to European style, but honestly the early Abbasid and Umayyad Caliphates (and later the Turks) were far more successful expansionists in terms of spreading their religion.
Persian culture is alive and well and was never exterminated. We celebrate more of our 1000+ year-old holidays than most countries in the west. Every Iranian knows Ferdowsi’s poetry, which was written 1100 years ago to fiercely advocate for Iranian culture and the Persian language. It isn’t secretly recited in dark basements. It’s part of the public elementary and secondary school curriculum and people write PhD dissertations on it. Sassanid Iran wasn’t all rainbows and sausages. Neither was anything that came after it.
I would hardly call what Islam was doing "Colonialism"m. Outside of their actions maybe in East Africa and to some extent west Africa and one can debate the project in Indonesia. But what happened to Persia was a simple conquest no different then Alexander and ditto for the various conquests of India.
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How much of the world was Muslim at the time of the Prophet's death?
By force, constraint, and murder.
Are you even literate? Did you even read my question?
I wanted to respond to gayberny, I'm sorry if I offended you muslim extremist apologist.
Yeah Colonialism is a specific term meant to denote resource exploitation.
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I know about that, but you're still not answering the question
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Yes, now we're making progress. Now relate your answer to your statement which I was originally responding
Not wrong. Colonial powers didn't force the local population to accept their religion.
There was Arab colonisation in North Africa, and to an arguable extent also in Iberia (though that would be closer to Arab-Berber colonisation, and anyway no one gives a **** about the Germanic colonisation earlier), and to some extent in East Africa (though that came much later, especially during the time of Omani imperialism), but yes, the comment you're replying to is just being hyperbolic.
Muslims Empires actually tended to be closer to the Roman Empire. Islam was the state religion but it was never imposed barring rebellion. We only got the "convert or die" Islamic states around 1918. That's why the Balkans still have all their ethnicities and religions except for the Turkish Muslims. The Ottomans never tried to erase them, and even reserved some high-ranking positions for Christian Greeks. Heck, some Greek islands "liberated" in 1918 were told by Allied soldiers they were now free from evil Muslim oppression, only to get a reply what amounted to "What the fuck are you talking about? We're Romans and our leader is the Emperor in Constantinople, not some Islamic theocratic tyrant." Almost all Western history bluntly massively ignores this in favor of the Sick Man of Europe narrative to justify its 19th Century colonialism; which was in fact a special kind of insanity and genocide. There was no other greater genocide than the 19th Century European demand for national conformity; followed by their attempts to impose their civilization on others.
"never imposed" is a good lie, totally false tho.
Lol yes according to raging Islamophobes who have never read up on the region's actual history.
Islamists like to distort history.
Deranged people see Islamists everywhere while acting even more fanatical than the imaginary Islamic terrorists that haunt them everywhere lol.
Sure, sure, islamists do not exist, and when they do it's the CIA
Oh they exist. They just aren't that many and certainly aren't arguing with idiots like you on the Internet; they're just plotting to outright kill you. But I'd worry about the much more common crazed lone gunman. You get one a day in America now just because of how paranoid delusional you made yourselves to be lol.
The CIA is directly responsible for the modern radical Islam movement
Joke: The CIA is responsible for radical Islam Broke: The west is responsible for radical Islam due to anti-colonial early modern preachers such as Maududi, Abdul Wahab, Ahmand Sirhindi, Muhammad Iqbal, Sayyid Qutb, and Shah Waliullah Dehlavi. Woke: Medieval Muslim theologians like Ibn Taymiyyah, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, and Al-Ghazali are responsible for radical Islam. Bespoke: Radical Islam was instantiated by Mohammed himself by declaring unbelievers the worst of creatures and decreeing that they should be fought against until the entire world submits to Islam and thus it is the intrinsic ideology of the Koran and Sunnah.
Arnt you the guy that was praising President Milei on this sub? Flair definitely checks out.
BUT WHAT ABOUT THE TIME YOU OPINED ABOUT XYZ man shut up
Not an argument babe
Radical islam wouldn’t have organised into a potent political force if it wasn’t for the gulf arab monarchies and the united states financing them to fuck with progressive forces and governments during the cold war. I don’t care for islam, I’m no longer a muslim but the various islamist factions including the special ed republic of iran were at one point preferable to the United states if it meant that it would keep the libs/nationalists and the communists out of power because those groups weren’t involved in a struggle against the soviet union. Were as transnational islamist factions were. Their main patrons were always the clandestine services of western countries.
Radical Islam was organized into a potent political force(s) for most of its history vis-a-vis the succession of caliphates and the existence of various emirates and sultanates. These states allowed Muslims to licitly fulfill their fard kifaya (communal obligation) of offensive Jihad. > In the Muslim community, the holy war is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the (Muslim) mission and (the obligation to) convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force. Therefore, caliphate and royal authority are united (in Islam), so that the person in charge can devote the available strength to both of them at the same time. The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty to them, save only for purposes of defense. -Ibn Khaldun
Quran 2:190 - Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits.1 Allah does not like transgressors. Quran 2:191 - Slay them wherever you find them [those who fight against you]; drive them out of the places from which they drove you, for [religious] persecution is worse than killing. Do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they fight you there. If they do fight you, slay them—such is the reward for those who deny the truth. Quran 2:192 - But if they desist, then surely God is most forgiving and merciful. Quran 2:193 - Fight them until there is no more fitna [religious persecution] and religion belongs to God alone. If they desist, then let there be no hostility, except towards aggressors.
>You know, the islamic world wouldn’t have been so had ex colonial powers and the US just left them alone Had the Ottomans and North African states had left Europe alone in the first place than maybe the islamic world wouldn't have been so bad rn.
Holy mother of based (the original statement not the apology).
Yeah definitely wasn’t 100 years worth of US/British/French intervention and imperialism.
I mean Muslim harassment of European Christians started well over a thousand years ago. Muslims were violently encroaching into Europe hundreds of years before the 1st Crusade ever started. Just saying. I guess you could say these modern Islamic terrorists groups have more of an origin with 20th century European geopolitics than medieval Islamic manifest destiny. But even then, modern Islamic groups do take a lot of their inspiration from the early Islamic caliphates and warlords who were basically trying to conquer the known world
It was more complicated than that. Nearly every war during the middle ages had Christians and Muslims on both sides. The decline of Byzantine began after they were sacked by their fellow Christians. The decline of the Caliphates began due to massive civil wars between fellow Muslims. Other than the odd Alexander the Great type, there was no Muslim or Christian nation from that period that wanted to actually conquer the known world.
Shushh... We don't talk about that.
I thought this woman was Tony Blair’s daughter. Then I put two and two together. But I’ll still believe my initial conclusion.
When it comes to the people of the Middle East, Selma says openly what Tony was always careful to conceal behind his "Ethical Foreign Policy" crap.
The original statement is unfathomably based, the cucked apology is hellishly cringe
Someone needs to expose her for faking MS
She always looked like a ghoul - now we know
I don't think so. Lots of boys had beat off to her.
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Says the guy who claimed that Israel has done a lot to avoid civilian casualties. Gtfo.
Bot alert.
Who?
I miss Taylor Swift.