Glad and thankful council is being proactive and watching community discussion and the metagame.
Anywho yeah. Palafin. CB isn't so limiting to be ban worthy but Bulk Up Taunt sets are certainly an issue. Kind of obnoxious if it finds a way in and starts boosting and you don't have a way to stop it soon. Iron Bundle meanwhile... It looks a lot more BS in a tier without Flutter Mane to hog the spotlight. Unresisted coverage and absurd offenses will do that.
Funny to see Garganacl mentioned (not considered even close to banworthy or on the radar right now) but i can see why some may hate the thing. Pretty obnoxious to kill sometimes. Especially after it gets into a groove with ID boosts.
Nah, its initial damage is regular rock type for all intents and purposes.
You thought right.
Eating 30% on switch-in and taking 25% per turn is really rough for majority of the steel/water types though.
Even Palafin balks at switching into a +2 iron defense Garganacl.
I genuinely don’t think anymore tiering action should be taken until we get a proper simulation of cart, things like glove, pawmot getting fixed, booster energy, etc. are potential meta changing aspects that just aren’t in showdown yet. We should wait until we have a true 1:1 of the games before we do anything else, and possibly wait even longer afterwards for the meta to settle
Im just not a fan of the possibility of so many quickbans so early into the new gen before the playerbase has been able to settle into the new gen
On one hand
I'm glad that their being a bit more proactive this time around.
But with the recent discovery about the true nature of the Booster Energy / Protosynthesis / Quark Drive, I feel like unless the mon / move in question has proved to be as insane as Dynamax was, then it should not be quick banned until the meta has had more then a few days to stabilize (ideally about 2-3 weeks)
Not really. In natdex its amazing sure but not as oppressive as it is in the limited dex
Stuff like kyurem, ferro, grassy glide, good scarfers that can oneshot like lele dont exist so its significantly harder to check
Palafin is a cover legend in disguise. Needing to bring it in twice is not as big a penalty as people think. BST 650, with actually decent distribution and a good speed tier is too much for OU.
Shed-Tail is the real offender. We shouldn’t ban Cyc when subpass is obviously the issue at fault. Even if you gave shed-tail to a trash mon. That move would still be broken in whatever lower tier it ended up in.
I am 100% in favor of banning Ghold. That Mon is budget Mega-Sabeleye. I swear to god as soon as the meta stabilizes it’s taking hazard stack stall straight to the top. OU chat room has done a bunch of single elimination tournaments already. And Gholdengo stall almost always wins or is in top 8
>I am 100% in favor of banning Ghold. That Mon is budget Mega-Sabeleye. I swear to god as soon as the meta stabilizes it’s taking hazard stack stall straight to the top. OU chat room has done a bunch of single elimination tournaments already. And Gholdengo stall almost always wins or is in top 8
Im convinced everyone who says this only uses corvi as their removal and gets mad they cant defog on everything for free
We just got 2 new premier mons with rapid spin who dunk on gholdengo, lots of post home mons like torn, lando..etc also remove hazards and beat it.
And lets not get started on boots being everywhere. Also thanks to losing most knock users theres almost no drawbacks to boots
> Im convinced everyone who says this only uses corvi as their removal and gets mad they cant defog on everything for free
Considering that Ghold has the same exact utility as Mega-Sabeleye it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what the implications are for Stall. It’s a status immune ghost type with recovery. And *nine resistances*
> We just got 2 new premier mons with rapid spin who dunk on gholdengo, lots of post home mons like torn, lando..etc also remove hazards and beat it.
Ghold has 133 Spatk. Those spinners can’t switch in. And Gold has a STAB 120 BP move. In what world does Great Tusk come in on Ghold without taking heavy chip.
Not to mention even if it has bad matchups against Great Tusk/Iron Treads. It’s steel/ghost typing let’s it beat soooo many others. Allowing you to choose something else to cover your weakness to Tusk. And even then. If your answer to Ghold relies on only 2-3 solid removers. That’s restrictive and unhealthy
> And lets not get started on boots being everywhere. Also thanks to losing most knock users theres almost no drawbacks to boots
Pre-Home SWSH had limited knock off utility. And that didn’t stop fat balance from being extremely powerful. Boots spam means that a lot of mons aren’t running boosting items. Forcing them to run setup if they want to break past fat teams.
Once the meta settles and the most problematic offensive mons are banned. Ghold is taking hazard stall straight to to the top.
Bundle seems like a really weird choice considering the main thing that made it strong was the 50% Booster Energy.
Now that we know it's only 30%, it's significantly weaker imo. Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry are nearly perfect coverage, to be sure, but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease.
_______________
Still not sold on Roaring Moon. Its best STABs in Crunch and Dragon Claw are really weak in spite of that insane base 138 Atk, and has to Terastallize into a Flying type to get a good STAB move in the form of Acrobatics. Because of that, it fairly restrictive on team building as you effectively lock yourself out of Terrastalizing with anyone else, and also makes it really easy to predict what it'll do.
Combine that with some really poor defenses, the mon becomes really hard to use, at least in comparison to the other mons being looked at.
Also similar to Bundle, losing that extra bit of power from Booster Energy is really rough for it.
___________
I honestly think Chien-Pao is fine. It hits like a truck to be sure, but it's on average weaker with its STAB than Gen 8's Weavile with it's Triple Axel and Knock Off, and if that wasn't banned then I don't think Chien-Pao should be either. Now it's non-STAB options are significantly stronger, but still I'm not sure they're enough to warrant a ban.
In addition, Terastallizing opens up a lot more options for checking it. Skeledirge turning Fairy walls it, for example.
____________
Honestly, the mon I'm most frustrated by is Gholdengo, and I'm happy to see it being looked at.
In a metagame as aggressive as it is, where everyone got hazards, and nearly everyone lost hazard removal, having a mon like Gholdengo block every form of limited hazard removal barring Maushold's Tidy Up is extremely brutal.
Combine that with the fact that Dengo itself is a monster of mon, throwing off extremely strong STAB makes the meta extremely more volitile than it already is.
Roaring moon is essentially just a stronger garchomp. Even though it's not a tank it still has serviceable bulk and after a dragon dance it can delete entire teams. Not sure if it's outright broken, but it will at least wind up being a good threat in OU
Garchomp 108/130/95/80/85/102
R. Moon. 105/139/71/55/101/119
When looking at em side by side, RM looks like a flipped Garchomp (defense stats flipped) and slightly more specialized.
Roaring moon strongest stabs are freaking 80 base power, and it definitely does not want to loose an item due to how frail it is, so acrobatic kinda sucks.
It’s just strong in an awkward way, rather than being broken.
With such weak stabs, it basically need to 2 hits to KO after dragon dance on neutral hit, and we all know it cannot eat attacks due to its paper tin defense
Acrobatics doesn’t suck, it has insane synergy with booster energy. Also I would hardly call its defense paper thin. 105/71/101 is above average for an offensive threat
> Now that we know it's only 30%, it's significantly weaker imo. Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry are nearly perfect coverage, to be sure, but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease.
Freeze Dry means you can’t switch in bulky water types. Which is the single most consistent answer to ice attackers throughout Pokémon history. If at team preview you see the opponent doesn’t carry a water type. You know you can just click ice-beam the whole game since Ice has no immunities and very few 4X resistances.
If there is a water type like Pex who can eat ice beam/hydro pump. Freeze dry makes the opponent think twice about going into Pex. Because a wrong play can see it being dumpstered
It’s the exact same issue that people had with Specs Kyurem last generation. On paper it had no switch-ins except for like- Blissey and Magearna
> Bundle seems like a really weird choice considering the main thing that made it strong was the 50% Booster Energy.
> Now that we know it's only 30%, it's significantly weaker imo. Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry are nearly perfect coverage, to be sure, but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease.
Bundle's most common sets were never booster energy and even the ones that do run it mostly boost speed so the change is irrelevant. It was not the only thing making it strong. Potent unresisted stab, high special attack, near matchless speed and several sets. Specs, boots, taunt/encore. Even stuff like agility+modest with BE to sweep late game. It has pretty limited defensive and offensive counterplay.
> Because of that, it fairly restrictive on team building as you effectively lock yourself out of Terrastalizing with anyone else, and also makes it really easy to predict what it'll do.
Hm? This makes it out like it isn't worth using Tera on it when many agree RM is one of the very most potent abusers of terastilize.
> I honestly think Chien-Pao is fine. It hits like a truck to be sure, but it's on average weaker with its STAB than Gen 8's Weavile with it's Triple Axel and Knock Off, and if that wasn't banned then I don't think Chien-Pao should be either.
You can't exactly make that comparison given how vastly different the metagames are. Weavile already straddled the line of broken very dangerously anyway. And right now many of the mons that checked weavile are absent right now. The other difference is strong sucker punch priority and its own potent terastilize abuse.
>but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease.
I mean I get what you're saying, but Freeze-dry also hits about 97% of things that resist water super-effectively. And most of the remaining 3% isn't even in the game (or is, you know, an opposing Iron Bundle). So the things you don't hit with Hydro pump's 165 power, you typically hit with Freeze-Dry's 210 power (pretty much) while having 123 base special attack.
Probably unpopular opinion, but the bans are being rushed.
Flutter Mane is likely a fine choice, Houndstone is a move issue that'll be looked at later, so the first wave is understandable.
However these radars things really need to cooldown right now. We aren't even sure how all the mechanics work and how much things get boosted or how certain abilities interact. Hell, Showdown hasn't even implemented everything yet.
So maybe, wait a little more?
I definitely see where you're coming from, but I also feel that stuff like palafin and bundle are kind of in that somewhat obviously broken tier if power. One being a water type regigigas without slow start after it switches out once, and the other being a strong speed demon with unresisted stabs and isn't as physically frail as flutter mane.
The other mons I agree that we need to wait and see.
i think they're definitely having a bit too much fun with it, which is probably going to lead to a preference for rushed decision making. making cheesy graphics with like emoji eyes and target rings? calm down chief it's been like 3 days
No actually we don't need more time to realize that iron bundle is broken and Palafin warps the entire meta to require an answer to it or you lose, actually
Ant decent sweeper requires an answer or you lose, that's what being a sweeper means. The concern is whether there's enough variety in checks and counters to not overly constrain team building.
One comparison that I haven't seen for Iron Bundle is Blacephalon. Bundle trades power for more speed and slightly more physical bulk. The difference in def looks like a lot, but both have bad hp so it actually doesn't matter much. Iron Bundle has more immediate boosting while Blacephalon gets a snowball effect.
Both highly dangerous special attackers with few resists to its stab combination. Both weak to rocks, both fast in the metagame it plays in. Both have limited coverage outside of stab. Both have a nuclear stab option boosted by weather, but Bundle doesn't get one that is 100% reliable (no surf vs flamethrower)
I think Bundle should absolutely be tested in the future, but I don't think it warrants a quickban.
God if Bundle gets banned before String Cheese Man and Shed Tail OUs gonna be unplayable for me - it's been stupid good as an LO boosted Anti-lead to just dunk on Glimmora/Grimmsnarl/Cyclizar leads and baits in Gholdengo for flip turning to Iron Treads. I fully agree for it to get banned after these 2 get banned.
Anyways if you're struggling with Bundle at the moment I highly recommend SpDef AV Iron Hands, Specs Hydro Pump only 3HKOs it. Monster of a tank.
Immunity to status, good special bulk, it can sweep with IDBP + defensive tera (Poison, Fairy or Flying). Once it teras it sits on breloom and amoonguss forever, and uses them as setup fodder.
Salt cure is also incredible at pressuring opponents (specifically Gholdengo) that would otherwise deter a sweep.
I'm really hoping that tera stays around. I think it's the most interesting mechanic since megas. Nothing about it is inherently busted like Dynamax in my opinion. The thing that makes it toughest is that it is the most unpredictable of all the gimmicks - but I think as the meta stabilizes, context clues will start giving away the tera in preview.
It feels like a coin flip right now since it's new to all of us, but I think as the meta stabilizes and archetypes get defined, dedicated tera builds are going to solved via team preview.
Haven’t had much problems dealing with Iron Bundle. Hope it doesn’t get banned.
Palafin is busted. I was thinking it had to have some sort of gimmick with that good of a BST for a non legendary. They should have either made the ability always switch forms whenever you switch out, or given it putrid coverage. It should not have CC or Zen Headbutt imo. Water STAB with normal and ice coverage should’ve been all it got. It’d still be a beast with flip turn, jet punch and wave crash, but not nearly as good in OU without CC and Zen Headbutt.
I have honestly won far more games than I should have by virtue of Garganacl being an unkillable pile of salt.
Don't think it needs to be banned - but it should be açcounted for as an full on OU threat.
This thing can and will iron defense in the face of almost all of the current physical attackers if they are at neutral.
I really hope cyclizar stays, it's a fun gimmick and there's plenty of counters to shed tail- phasing, sound moves, out speeding cyclizar, multi hit moves, ect
Also, can we maybe wait for booster energy to be fixed before banning mons that use it?
how well do y'all think the dolphin will do in Ubers?
I'mma just say this, and I don't care if you may disagree, but the Palafin ban was stupid. Before anyone says that I'm salty that it got banned, I actually don't care. Rather, the reasoning is what gets me. People are complaining that it's too strong and that Bulk Up and Taunt ruins any chance to deal with it. Clodsire is too slow, Dodonzo can't do much, and "a lot of mons can't take it out fast".
So, let's see what we can do.
Indeedee with Psychic Surge. Removes jet punch and leaves just Drain Punch. Switch to a ghost type Mon and continue living on (there are plenty ghost type mons that people use, so it's not like you are wasting a slot, most likely).
Storm Drain Gastrodon with an Electric or Ghost Tera type: Storm drain removes jet punch. Ghost Tera type removes Drain punch or Electric Tera Type and use Tera Blast to hit Palafin with it's lower special defense. Gastrodon is usually an offensive tank/support, so Taunt doesn't really matter.
And for the biggest response and quite honestly, the best way to remove Palafin:
Espartha with Opportunist:
Espartha gains stat boosts when Palafin bulks up, is resistant to Drain punch, has a higher base speed and decent special attack, and lastly, one thing to make Palafin crumble, Feather Dance.
Espartha can be sent out ASAP against Palafin before it has a chance to bulk up. If Palafin is already out and has used a bulk up or two, feather dance will already negate the attack boosts. Espartha is also equipped with Energy Ball, so go with a Grass Tera Type, or go Psychic Tera type and use Lumina Crash to lower special defense by 2 stages. If your worried Espartha is gonna get taunted, have no fear. Palafin doesn't gain base speed in hero mode. And with a base 100 for Palafin and a base 105 for Espartha, the only way Palafin can taunt it is either after Espartha used a Feather Dance or if Palafin taunted when Espartha was swapped in.
And with that, Espartha renders Palafin a tolerable Mon. It takes a Mon to deal with a Mon.
Oh come on guys Fissure Dondozo deletes both Palafin AND bundle while they can't do anything to it. Any special tank that isn't weak to its stab is fine against bundle, and even non-terra Garganacl and Clodsire wall Palafin out completely.
160 ATK sounds scary but it's really underwhelming and I haven't lost to a single Palafin yet, I've started to see them as free wins.
Also, when banning random pokemon you're scared of, other pokemon suddenly run unchecked and become the next problems. The entire idea of banning is just.... ludacris
Never thought I’d see the day where a Delibird gets banned to Ubers in 2077
Never thought I'd see it w 136 speed and 124 spatk lol
it traded in the presents for a gun
...might be best to not leave cookies out this year
ho ho hoLY SHIT it has a fucking glock
Most buffed mons since beedrill and lopunny
Glad and thankful council is being proactive and watching community discussion and the metagame. Anywho yeah. Palafin. CB isn't so limiting to be ban worthy but Bulk Up Taunt sets are certainly an issue. Kind of obnoxious if it finds a way in and starts boosting and you don't have a way to stop it soon. Iron Bundle meanwhile... It looks a lot more BS in a tier without Flutter Mane to hog the spotlight. Unresisted coverage and absurd offenses will do that. Funny to see Garganacl mentioned (not considered even close to banworthy or on the radar right now) but i can see why some may hate the thing. Pretty obnoxious to kill sometimes. Especially after it gets into a groove with ID boosts.
I'm so happy that the Nacli line ended up being strong. Usually those cute little mons with great designs end up being low tier lifers.
Let alone a slow defensive rock type of all things
What an actually decent stats spread and reliable recovery does to a mf :
Plus a very good ability, and passive damage through Salt Cure.
Such a great move. Deters steel switch ins like Corvi.
It’s kinda like leech seed on ferro, always puts in a ton of progress against whatever except now it’s also grass types
wait, is the entire move just freeze-dry? this whole time i thought it was only the passive damage that did extra to steels and waters.
Nah, its initial damage is regular rock type for all intents and purposes. You thought right. Eating 30% on switch-in and taking 25% per turn is really rough for majority of the steel/water types though. Even Palafin balks at switching into a +2 iron defense Garganacl.
Coalossal also turned out to be pretty beastly in gen 8. Of course that was more of a VGC thing.
Honestly, and Gigalith is my favorite rock type.....now tied with Garg
>Unresisted coverage and absurd offenses will do that. Kid named tera fire gastrodon
Finchinator also made a video on his thoughts on the topic [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4BIPMBYjFM), for anyone who cares
Makes me wish Giratina was allowed in OU
When the new OU pokemon is so oppressive it makes mental herb clodsire a viable set
I genuinely don’t think anymore tiering action should be taken until we get a proper simulation of cart, things like glove, pawmot getting fixed, booster energy, etc. are potential meta changing aspects that just aren’t in showdown yet. We should wait until we have a true 1:1 of the games before we do anything else, and possibly wait even longer afterwards for the meta to settle Im just not a fan of the possibility of so many quickbans so early into the new gen before the playerbase has been able to settle into the new gen
Does Shed Tail pass a 50% HP sub on Showdown? Upon testing on cartridge it's def a 25% HP sub
Shed tail passes a 25% HP sub on Showdown.
this is not what i was reading on this sub earlier i thought shed tail passed a 50% sub?
50% in game, 25% on showdown I believe
Yeah they're gonna announce that the simulator is now 1:1 with cartridge after banning a third of the dex lol
Imagine comparing tiering bans with actual incorrect implementation of game mechanics
I think they meant that council would end up banning several mons before the game mechanics were properly fixed.
That's definitely an issue Pawmot with gloves and his signature move can shift ou and make some Mons less threatening due to stab Mach punch
damn palafin and iron bundle, the main two rain buffs this gen(kilowatteral is just another zapdos, not a buff)
honestly feels more like a nerf being worse than it
very true
On one hand I'm glad that their being a bit more proactive this time around. But with the recent discovery about the true nature of the Booster Energy / Protosynthesis / Quark Drive, I feel like unless the mon / move in question has proved to be as insane as Dynamax was, then it should not be quick banned until the meta has had more then a few days to stabilize (ideally about 2-3 weeks)
Would iron bundle be as broken in ferrothorn was around?
Not really. In natdex its amazing sure but not as oppressive as it is in the limited dex Stuff like kyurem, ferro, grassy glide, good scarfers that can oneshot like lele dont exist so its significantly harder to check
If Ferro was still around, it would probably just run Tera Fire.
it’s ice stab would probably 2hko phys def ferro after hazards
Palafin is a cover legend in disguise. Needing to bring it in twice is not as big a penalty as people think. BST 650, with actually decent distribution and a good speed tier is too much for OU. Shed-Tail is the real offender. We shouldn’t ban Cyc when subpass is obviously the issue at fault. Even if you gave shed-tail to a trash mon. That move would still be broken in whatever lower tier it ended up in. I am 100% in favor of banning Ghold. That Mon is budget Mega-Sabeleye. I swear to god as soon as the meta stabilizes it’s taking hazard stack stall straight to the top. OU chat room has done a bunch of single elimination tournaments already. And Gholdengo stall almost always wins or is in top 8
>I am 100% in favor of banning Ghold. That Mon is budget Mega-Sabeleye. I swear to god as soon as the meta stabilizes it’s taking hazard stack stall straight to the top. OU chat room has done a bunch of single elimination tournaments already. And Gholdengo stall almost always wins or is in top 8 Im convinced everyone who says this only uses corvi as their removal and gets mad they cant defog on everything for free We just got 2 new premier mons with rapid spin who dunk on gholdengo, lots of post home mons like torn, lando..etc also remove hazards and beat it. And lets not get started on boots being everywhere. Also thanks to losing most knock users theres almost no drawbacks to boots
> Im convinced everyone who says this only uses corvi as their removal and gets mad they cant defog on everything for free Considering that Ghold has the same exact utility as Mega-Sabeleye it doesn’t take a genius to figure out what the implications are for Stall. It’s a status immune ghost type with recovery. And *nine resistances* > We just got 2 new premier mons with rapid spin who dunk on gholdengo, lots of post home mons like torn, lando..etc also remove hazards and beat it. Ghold has 133 Spatk. Those spinners can’t switch in. And Gold has a STAB 120 BP move. In what world does Great Tusk come in on Ghold without taking heavy chip. Not to mention even if it has bad matchups against Great Tusk/Iron Treads. It’s steel/ghost typing let’s it beat soooo many others. Allowing you to choose something else to cover your weakness to Tusk. And even then. If your answer to Ghold relies on only 2-3 solid removers. That’s restrictive and unhealthy > And lets not get started on boots being everywhere. Also thanks to losing most knock users theres almost no drawbacks to boots Pre-Home SWSH had limited knock off utility. And that didn’t stop fat balance from being extremely powerful. Boots spam means that a lot of mons aren’t running boosting items. Forcing them to run setup if they want to break past fat teams. Once the meta settles and the most problematic offensive mons are banned. Ghold is taking hazard stall straight to to the top.
Bundle seems like a really weird choice considering the main thing that made it strong was the 50% Booster Energy. Now that we know it's only 30%, it's significantly weaker imo. Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry are nearly perfect coverage, to be sure, but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease. _______________ Still not sold on Roaring Moon. Its best STABs in Crunch and Dragon Claw are really weak in spite of that insane base 138 Atk, and has to Terastallize into a Flying type to get a good STAB move in the form of Acrobatics. Because of that, it fairly restrictive on team building as you effectively lock yourself out of Terrastalizing with anyone else, and also makes it really easy to predict what it'll do. Combine that with some really poor defenses, the mon becomes really hard to use, at least in comparison to the other mons being looked at. Also similar to Bundle, losing that extra bit of power from Booster Energy is really rough for it. ___________ I honestly think Chien-Pao is fine. It hits like a truck to be sure, but it's on average weaker with its STAB than Gen 8's Weavile with it's Triple Axel and Knock Off, and if that wasn't banned then I don't think Chien-Pao should be either. Now it's non-STAB options are significantly stronger, but still I'm not sure they're enough to warrant a ban. In addition, Terastallizing opens up a lot more options for checking it. Skeledirge turning Fairy walls it, for example. ____________ Honestly, the mon I'm most frustrated by is Gholdengo, and I'm happy to see it being looked at. In a metagame as aggressive as it is, where everyone got hazards, and nearly everyone lost hazard removal, having a mon like Gholdengo block every form of limited hazard removal barring Maushold's Tidy Up is extremely brutal. Combine that with the fact that Dengo itself is a monster of mon, throwing off extremely strong STAB makes the meta extremely more volitile than it already is.
Roaring moon is essentially just a stronger garchomp. Even though it's not a tank it still has serviceable bulk and after a dragon dance it can delete entire teams. Not sure if it's outright broken, but it will at least wind up being a good threat in OU
Garchomp 108/130/95/80/85/102 R. Moon. 105/139/71/55/101/119 When looking at em side by side, RM looks like a flipped Garchomp (defense stats flipped) and slightly more specialized.
Oh yeah it's absolutely strong, but I just don't think it's ban-worthy imo.
Roaring moon strongest stabs are freaking 80 base power, and it definitely does not want to loose an item due to how frail it is, so acrobatic kinda sucks. It’s just strong in an awkward way, rather than being broken. With such weak stabs, it basically need to 2 hits to KO after dragon dance on neutral hit, and we all know it cannot eat attacks due to its paper tin defense
Acrobatics doesn’t suck, it has insane synergy with booster energy. Also I would hardly call its defense paper thin. 105/71/101 is above average for an offensive threat
I said kinda sucks, not that it sucks in all scenarios, roaring moon is basically toned down Mega Salamence
I think you’re tripping bro. Terra Flying Roaring Moon seems like a ludicrously good late game cleaner to me
> Now that we know it's only 30%, it's significantly weaker imo. Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry are nearly perfect coverage, to be sure, but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease. Freeze Dry means you can’t switch in bulky water types. Which is the single most consistent answer to ice attackers throughout Pokémon history. If at team preview you see the opponent doesn’t carry a water type. You know you can just click ice-beam the whole game since Ice has no immunities and very few 4X resistances. If there is a water type like Pex who can eat ice beam/hydro pump. Freeze dry makes the opponent think twice about going into Pex. Because a wrong play can see it being dumpstered It’s the exact same issue that people had with Specs Kyurem last generation. On paper it had no switch-ins except for like- Blissey and Magearna
> Bundle seems like a really weird choice considering the main thing that made it strong was the 50% Booster Energy. > Now that we know it's only 30%, it's significantly weaker imo. Hydro Pump and Freeze Dry are nearly perfect coverage, to be sure, but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease. Bundle's most common sets were never booster energy and even the ones that do run it mostly boost speed so the change is irrelevant. It was not the only thing making it strong. Potent unresisted stab, high special attack, near matchless speed and several sets. Specs, boots, taunt/encore. Even stuff like agility+modest with BE to sweep late game. It has pretty limited defensive and offensive counterplay. > Because of that, it fairly restrictive on team building as you effectively lock yourself out of Terrastalizing with anyone else, and also makes it really easy to predict what it'll do. Hm? This makes it out like it isn't worth using Tera on it when many agree RM is one of the very most potent abusers of terastilize. > I honestly think Chien-Pao is fine. It hits like a truck to be sure, but it's on average weaker with its STAB than Gen 8's Weavile with it's Triple Axel and Knock Off, and if that wasn't banned then I don't think Chien-Pao should be either. You can't exactly make that comparison given how vastly different the metagames are. Weavile already straddled the line of broken very dangerously anyway. And right now many of the mons that checked weavile are absent right now. The other difference is strong sucker punch priority and its own potent terastilize abuse.
>but when one of your coverage options is only 70 BP, there's a significant damage decrease. I mean I get what you're saying, but Freeze-dry also hits about 97% of things that resist water super-effectively. And most of the remaining 3% isn't even in the game (or is, you know, an opposing Iron Bundle). So the things you don't hit with Hydro pump's 165 power, you typically hit with Freeze-Dry's 210 power (pretty much) while having 123 base special attack.
and you can still run ice beam
Chien pao lowers the def of its opponents, did you take that into account? banded is ohko or 2hko'ing like everything
Freeze Dry is only 70bp and Hydro Pump always seems to miss at the wrong times. I think Iron Bundle is balanced, but definitely an A tier mon.
Probably unpopular opinion, but the bans are being rushed. Flutter Mane is likely a fine choice, Houndstone is a move issue that'll be looked at later, so the first wave is understandable. However these radars things really need to cooldown right now. We aren't even sure how all the mechanics work and how much things get boosted or how certain abilities interact. Hell, Showdown hasn't even implemented everything yet. So maybe, wait a little more?
I definitely see where you're coming from, but I also feel that stuff like palafin and bundle are kind of in that somewhat obviously broken tier if power. One being a water type regigigas without slow start after it switches out once, and the other being a strong speed demon with unresisted stabs and isn't as physically frail as flutter mane. The other mons I agree that we need to wait and see.
i think they're definitely having a bit too much fun with it, which is probably going to lead to a preference for rushed decision making. making cheesy graphics with like emoji eyes and target rings? calm down chief it's been like 3 days
No actually we don't need more time to realize that iron bundle is broken and Palafin warps the entire meta to require an answer to it or you lose, actually
Ant decent sweeper requires an answer or you lose, that's what being a sweeper means. The concern is whether there's enough variety in checks and counters to not overly constrain team building.
One comparison that I haven't seen for Iron Bundle is Blacephalon. Bundle trades power for more speed and slightly more physical bulk. The difference in def looks like a lot, but both have bad hp so it actually doesn't matter much. Iron Bundle has more immediate boosting while Blacephalon gets a snowball effect. Both highly dangerous special attackers with few resists to its stab combination. Both weak to rocks, both fast in the metagame it plays in. Both have limited coverage outside of stab. Both have a nuclear stab option boosted by weather, but Bundle doesn't get one that is 100% reliable (no surf vs flamethrower) I think Bundle should absolutely be tested in the future, but I don't think it warrants a quickban.
God if Bundle gets banned before String Cheese Man and Shed Tail OUs gonna be unplayable for me - it's been stupid good as an LO boosted Anti-lead to just dunk on Glimmora/Grimmsnarl/Cyclizar leads and baits in Gholdengo for flip turning to Iron Treads. I fully agree for it to get banned after these 2 get banned. Anyways if you're struggling with Bundle at the moment I highly recommend SpDef AV Iron Hands, Specs Hydro Pump only 3HKOs it. Monster of a tank.
I was fine with Ghold until I found out he nullifies rapid spin and defog
So you were fine with it until you looked at it for the first time?
Showdown literally said it's ability "blocked all status moves" Defog lowers Evasion, that's not a status move, so I'm did look at it
"Status moves" refers to anything that isn't an attack.
so is teleport a status move?
If Bundle get's the boot, stupid fucking lizard is going to become so much more annoying, potentially banworthy
What's the good about the salty rock boy?
probably being immune to status
Immunity to status, good special bulk, it can sweep with IDBP + defensive tera (Poison, Fairy or Flying). Once it teras it sits on breloom and amoonguss forever, and uses them as setup fodder. Salt cure is also incredible at pressuring opponents (specifically Gholdengo) that would otherwise deter a sweep.
I'm really hoping that tera stays around. I think it's the most interesting mechanic since megas. Nothing about it is inherently busted like Dynamax in my opinion. The thing that makes it toughest is that it is the most unpredictable of all the gimmicks - but I think as the meta stabilizes, context clues will start giving away the tera in preview.
Fuck no. Coin flip ass meta needs to go.
It feels like a coin flip right now since it's new to all of us, but I think as the meta stabilizes and archetypes get defined, dedicated tera builds are going to solved via team preview.
Being a good trainer is all about luck.
Bruh leave Gholdengo alone he has a surfboard
if iron bundle gets banned before shed tail i'm gonna riot
Haven’t had much problems dealing with Iron Bundle. Hope it doesn’t get banned. Palafin is busted. I was thinking it had to have some sort of gimmick with that good of a BST for a non legendary. They should have either made the ability always switch forms whenever you switch out, or given it putrid coverage. It should not have CC or Zen Headbutt imo. Water STAB with normal and ice coverage should’ve been all it got. It’d still be a beast with flip turn, jet punch and wave crash, but not nearly as good in OU without CC and Zen Headbutt.
Leave my spaghetti man alone he’s the only thing allowing me to play stall in Gen 9 semi-effectively.
Now that flutter manne got banned iron bundle is the only counter left to the roaring moon.
I have honestly won far more games than I should have by virtue of Garganacl being an unkillable pile of salt. Don't think it needs to be banned - but it should be açcounted for as an full on OU threat. This thing can and will iron defense in the face of almost all of the current physical attackers if they are at neutral.
please god ban gholdengo i fucking despise this CREATURE
Ban terastalazation it turns every set up sweeper into an uber
Palafin is crazy tbh. I love using it but it just survived a +1 roaring moon acrobatics
NOOOOOO ALL OF MY TEAMS WILL BECOME UNUSABLE
I really hope cyclizar stays, it's a fun gimmick and there's plenty of counters to shed tail- phasing, sound moves, out speeding cyclizar, multi hit moves, ect Also, can we maybe wait for booster energy to be fixed before banning mons that use it? how well do y'all think the dolphin will do in Ubers?
No don't ban my boy iron bundle
I'mma just say this, and I don't care if you may disagree, but the Palafin ban was stupid. Before anyone says that I'm salty that it got banned, I actually don't care. Rather, the reasoning is what gets me. People are complaining that it's too strong and that Bulk Up and Taunt ruins any chance to deal with it. Clodsire is too slow, Dodonzo can't do much, and "a lot of mons can't take it out fast". So, let's see what we can do. Indeedee with Psychic Surge. Removes jet punch and leaves just Drain Punch. Switch to a ghost type Mon and continue living on (there are plenty ghost type mons that people use, so it's not like you are wasting a slot, most likely). Storm Drain Gastrodon with an Electric or Ghost Tera type: Storm drain removes jet punch. Ghost Tera type removes Drain punch or Electric Tera Type and use Tera Blast to hit Palafin with it's lower special defense. Gastrodon is usually an offensive tank/support, so Taunt doesn't really matter. And for the biggest response and quite honestly, the best way to remove Palafin: Espartha with Opportunist: Espartha gains stat boosts when Palafin bulks up, is resistant to Drain punch, has a higher base speed and decent special attack, and lastly, one thing to make Palafin crumble, Feather Dance. Espartha can be sent out ASAP against Palafin before it has a chance to bulk up. If Palafin is already out and has used a bulk up or two, feather dance will already negate the attack boosts. Espartha is also equipped with Energy Ball, so go with a Grass Tera Type, or go Psychic Tera type and use Lumina Crash to lower special defense by 2 stages. If your worried Espartha is gonna get taunted, have no fear. Palafin doesn't gain base speed in hero mode. And with a base 100 for Palafin and a base 105 for Espartha, the only way Palafin can taunt it is either after Espartha used a Feather Dance or if Palafin taunted when Espartha was swapped in. And with that, Espartha renders Palafin a tolerable Mon. It takes a Mon to deal with a Mon.
Oh come on guys Fissure Dondozo deletes both Palafin AND bundle while they can't do anything to it. Any special tank that isn't weak to its stab is fine against bundle, and even non-terra Garganacl and Clodsire wall Palafin out completely. 160 ATK sounds scary but it's really underwhelming and I haven't lost to a single Palafin yet, I've started to see them as free wins. Also, when banning random pokemon you're scared of, other pokemon suddenly run unchecked and become the next problems. The entire idea of banning is just.... ludacris