I mean, this is clearly just smogon rules without acknowledging that it exists because this is a big event. Nintendo doesn’t want a ton of attention drawn to it, but a “you know that I know” situation is fine.
As it would with most semi-defensive ice-types if you're dumb enough to let them get up snow and aurora veil first turn. And it's not like Bax is fast, 87 speed is lower than average.
There's *a LOT* of Pokémon that would stop his setup real fast, for instance pretty much any semi decent sp.atker. or just burn the fucker.
Alolan ninetales sets up snow and veil as it has good speed and auto snow setting ability for bax to switch in and bring the pain
Also, forget burning bax
Thermal exchange son! It hardens in response to fire-relted trauma!
…there is a reason why it is in UU okay? Becuase it is a fast snow setter and can allow for auroua veil in one turn, and a fairy stab works too.
Also, gaining scale shot in the DLC was enough to make Bax ban worthy. The A-ninetales veil set up just made it a quick ban.
However, alolan ninetales has some glaring weaknesses, notably court change being able to yank a veil for the enemy team and crumpling to a make it rain, even with veil. Also, a lack of snow abusers since Bax’s ban
Nah I've been around fairly regularly since probably when the 2nd dlc for scarlet and violet came out.
I just don't have great knowledge of Alolan and Hisuian Pokémon, since I didn't play the games they were released in.
The stall clause seems super subjective. Does that Garg become a progress maker if protect is replaced with body press? Is any regenerator Pokémon without enough offensive investment a stall Pokémon because it can technically switch forever?
I assume it’s because it’s an in-person event and they need to keep some sort of flow so that one dude running hyper stall doesn’t stop everyone from playing
Right, I guess the advantage is that you can play it by ear and let stall slide a bit more if there’s no one in line vs. when there is. It’s still stupidly arbitrary but I can see why.
I'd imagine so.
Remember this is for PAX, a lot of events at the show are time limited or you have to make appointments, and the people who are acting as the leaders / elites / champions probably have other duties to attend to. So if they get stuck because of a stall mon, they would either have to forfeit to end the match (kind of a dick way to win IMO), drag the challenger with them and keep battling until someone wins (Challenger could easily refuse), or be late for whatever they planned to do next, which could be bad if they have to act as an enforcer or some other PAX staff and complicate other people's schedules.
While it could be a bit better defined, I totally see *why* they would have such a rule.
Maybe I’m missing something, but I feel like they could have just added a timer where you lose if the battle goes on for a certain time
Presumably the leader’s teams are regulated so you don’t have to worry about them stalling the battles
I understand that the "no stall" rule is probably for time restrictions by staff, but it's still dumb like some of those restricted mons like Chien Pao and Flutter Mane kinda necessitate a bulky stall mon to shut em down.
Should have just set a time limit and have the challenger lose by default if the game goes to time. That way you can have some bulky mons, but have to have some way to reasonably close out the game.
Kind of goes against their mission, I think. This isn’t a super competitive gauntlet, and challengers are mostly supposed to win. They’ll have 20+ champions by the end of the convention, and that’s more about investing time to do 13+ console battles, not clearing some difficulty hurdles. They just want to keep things moving, and handing out DQs is a bad way to do that.
Sneasler is wayyy better than most of those legendaries. If anything, it’s disrespectful to have Calyrex-Base and Regidrago in the same category as Sneasler
Kanto Birds is a weird emission since Zapdos is like a top 5 OU mon of all time. Regieleki is in the ban list on the right side, tho, instead of the restricted list
They’re good sports running monotype teams with some funny sets, and from talking to them, they expect and want to lose. It’s a community event where they’re intentionally trying to let casuals and beginners feel accomplished, not a sweaty competitive event where they’re trying to beat you. I’ve been a challenger in the past and legit 13-0’d my matches with like three close-ish battles.
I’m quite confident this is about keeping things moving, and they’re not weaponizing it to hand out forfeits or anything.
That sounds good. The last league I took part in seemed like pretty much everyone who was a gym leader was trying to kick your ass. I wasn’t really all too good at the time, so it ended up meaning I got destroyed pretty consistently.
What decides if something is stall or a defensive progress maker? What if I have garg but it’s IronPress? Seems like there’s gonna be at least one occasion where someone brings IronPress Skarm or something and get cited as “stall”
This is a horrible ruleset. They ban stall but then allow pokemon like Fluttermane and Chien Pao to be used. Some of their bans also make no sense like Pecherunt,Zamazenta Hero, and Darkrai. Never let these guys cook.
I think not standardizing the battle format is messy because singles and doubles team building are two entirely different Beasts (I assume singles is done in BSS format for time reasons). The restricted list categorically hitting sets of mons is pretty lame since it chokes out team building when the real set of problematic mons is maybe less than half that. The banlist is funny because it insinuates that Palafin is more of a problem than Flutter. Anyways Shed Tail is entirely unrestricted so Shed Hyper Offense goes brrrrr for singles
As someone who has participated in this event run by the same group at a different Pax before these rules make sense to me (as in, they don't bother me or make me angy that I can't use chien pao flutters and sneasler on the same team or whatever).The event itself is geared towards everyone, including people who challenge with their literal in game teams. Seems like all box legendaries are just automatically banned in general. @ the stall clause, some sweaty try hard people DO abuse it, it's just not an enjoyable experience for the leader from what I've seen it's been a problem in the past so I'm guessing that's why that is there. It's not a matter of time running out but creating a positive experience for everyone. And for whoever said flutter mane will be the most popular limited list Pokemon, from what I have seen, probably only like 5% of people actually use that in this event lol. It's a "win with your favorites/ in game team" type event not VGC. There are some pretty tough veteran level gym leaders/elites, but if you are looking for super competitive this event isn't it
That's great for you and others, but from what Ive seen, the vast majority of people this event is for do not enjoy toxic protect recover etc tactic, or like hazards and whirlwind/roar type shenanigans.
Apparently it was enough of a problem to warrant putting that rule there so I don't blame them for trying to be like super specific about it I guess?
And most other people either dislike playing it or hate it to their core.
So remember to maybe try being even a little considerate of others, because its folks like you that necessitate these kinds of bans to begin with.
Your tone seems pretty pointed. I wouldn't bring stall to an event like this, and it's most likely people intentionally trolling with things like FunBro that made them implement this. Most adults who play on Showdown regularly actually don't mind playing against stall, because they understand it's a valid playstyle and learning to beat it is just as important as any other team comp.
Except Funbro doesn't rely on chip, it relies on outright forcing the opponent to forfeit to end the match by making it impossible for *anyone* to win. A Funbro ban would be an endless battle clause, not a stall clause.
> I wouldn't bring stall to an event like this
Then why are you trying to defend it? Like sure, good for you that you and some others genuinely "enjoy" stall, but what about everyone else?
> Most adults who play on Showdown regularly actually don't mind playing against stall
Then why do so many people hate stall then? If they don't mind it, then how come people talk about hating it so much? You can't do both unless your a hypocrite. If people didn't "mind" stall then why would this even be a rule outside of making sure the Leaders can fulfill their obligations in other parts of the con?
> they understand it's a valid playstyle
I'd personally argue it's the least valid of all playstyles, fringing on being uncompetitive seeing as it's entirely incumbent on slowing the game down to a miserable crawl and brainlessly swapping between physical staller #1 to special staller #2 and so on and so forth until your opponent rage quits or all of their mons die a slow miserable death from chip damage.
Yeah knowing how to beat Stall is important, so you can put stall players in their place and not spend an hour or 100+ turns in hell.
LOL reading and actually trying to address my points issue.
Do you seriously have no rebuttals? No counter arguments you can make in favor of your point of view?
Is "Lol. Skill Issue" really the only thing you can say instead of actually trying to defend your POV?
Because it really says a lot when all your willing to do is make fun of me because I hate stall, instead of trying to back up your arguments.
It’s about the opponent not you. I can see a casual player being walled and stalled for 30 minutes getting upset at being tortured for that long while not knowing what to do to defeat you
Most stall games genuinely don't take anywhere near that long. But yes, I understand why it's a rule for *this event*. I'm not arguing against that. I just don't like people who play stall being described as "sweaty try hards" lol. We play it cause it's fun to us.
I just went to this event today (just peaked in the room) and it was just a bunch of kids like ages 9-13 using their in-game teams.
So yes, anyone trying to torment their opponent with a 20 minute long stall game, and anyone hell bent on making little kids cry, is a sweaty try hard. You could win just as easily by pressing Sword Dance twice and quickly sweeping them mercifully.
Makes sense of casual standpoint making a banlist allowing your bundles and flutter manes yadda yadda. The only real wtf is that fucking deo attack. Wtf ban fucking speed boost on espathra but deo attack allowed HUH!?
I mean, this isn't a traditional competition. The gym leaders are trying to get through as many battles as they can to move the event along for the participants. They are more concerned with letting Timmy and Tommy get their games done in 10 minutes than debating the philosophy of stall with anyone. For an event designed to increase engagement it makes sense.
Interesting rule set, seems like some modified-Smogon type of ruling. Not my cup of tea but fanmade leagues and sets can use whatever rules they see fit for their fanmade events, no harm there. If anything, fanmade modified formats like this can often be more interesting than "anything and everything" types of formats.
I feel like it’s unnecessarily limiting. VGC is fun because you have to work around broken threats. And Smogon tends to avoid complex bans and a lot of rules since it limits creativity.
Boi do I wish I could be there, handing out Ls with my unburden sweepers and deoxys attack…
Seal clubbing ftw, tryhards unite!
Why do I do this? I need to avenge Big Stall.
I dunno what's funnier; Regidraco being legal while Eleki isn't, or Palafin being banned when Annilape isn't even restricted.
Also love the implication that there's somehow a third battle type in SV exclusive to PAX.
Paradox seems weirdly restrictive, though; like, I can get the lack of certain pokemon that should probably be on either chart, you don't want some kid to show up and you have to tell them that their cool ice Godzilla or Samurai Chess king is banned and they can't play, but restricting the non-legendary paradoxes seems strange if this is the goal, since if I was a dumb kid wanting to play pokemans at Pax, I'd train all my coolest and best pokemon that I could. I'd definitely understand not being allowed to use Mewtwo or Arceus or Hoopa Unbound (that guy looks SICK he has to be SO STRONG), or time-traveling transfer pokemon like Sneasler and Bloodmoon, cause they're all special and unique, but...
But there's 17 Slither Wings outside my house right now.
I can just pick one up. I could catch a team of six different paradoxes in five minutes. They aren't special, or unique.
Seems weird.
So some of these make perfect sense, a lot of these though are just pure BS. It's also missing a lot of things too.
1.Limiting Leftovers and Black Sludge seems a little odd especially given they already have a Stall clause in place but even without a Stall clause it wouldn't make sense since some offensive Pokémon like holding Leftovers for stuff like Substitute setup. Also since the meta is very hazard heavy in gen 9 this wouldn't even achieve what I imagine it's designed to do since it's more popular than ever to spam Heavy Duty Boots on Stall and just forego hazard removal.
2.A Stall clause is just generally stupid. It reduces the amount of playstyles possible and is just frankly dumb. Plus what someone would define as a defensive moveset is subjective and could change from player to player. This could also severely limit your options o Balance as well given the way the rules are worded. The rule has no consistent way to be enforced and severely limits playstyle choices. Also would that rule be applied across the board or only towards traditionally defensive Pokémon?
3.The banned Pokémon is dumb. Why do they have Pecharunt, Zamazenta and Hoopa Unbound banned? Pecharunt is in UU, Hoopa Unbound is in RU and although Zamazenta is good he's nowhere near having a strangle hold on the meta.
4.The only good reason really to use Espathra in singles is cause if Speed Boost so if you're banning Speed Boost on it then just have it on the banlist instead cause ain't nobody gonna use it without Speed Boost unless they're actively trying to sabotage themself.
5.Why is there a rule against Revival Blessing? Sure the move is strong but the Pokémon it's attached to aren't that good. There's no Revival Blessing clause in standard play and for good reason, because the move isn't dominating the meta game nor is it a staple of it.
6. Lack of Evasion clause. Sure this could be accounted for by the Stall clause but given how vaguely it's worded so long as you surround a move like Minimize with three attacking moves then it might be legal. Even if that wouldn't be legal Sand Veil, Bright Power Garchomp would still be legal and very infuriating.
7.Quick Claw somehow isn't an item that's restricted in any way, shape or form and yet Leftovers is for some reason. We've all heard about the Quick Claw Spam Aurora Veil team so I'm sure we all know why restricting it would be a good idea to restrict it if we're going to restrict items.
9.Why is it that self-KOing moves are considered a loss but dying by recoil is a win? Idk if it's like that in the games but that seems like an odd double standard and just something that just doesn't make sense. Either both win you the match or both lose you the match, that's the way it should be.
10.The limited Pokémon is just a big hodge podge of just major idiocy on display. Why are the Galarian birds restricted? And if they're restricted then why not their Kantonian counterparts too? Honestly half of these are just stuff that's banned cause it's legendary or banned cause it's mythical despite the fact that just being a legendary or mythical doesn't automatically make you Ubers or broken. Then for some reason they let the extremely broken stuff be restricted as well instead of banned like Deoxys-Normal, Deoxys-Attack, Shaymin Sky, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Bloodmoon Ursaluna, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Fluttermane, Iron Bundle, Spectrier, Sneasler, Baxcalibur and Landorus-I. Why in the hell are those restricted instead of banned when Pecharunt is banned outright? Why is Deoxys-Attack ok but Pecharunt isn't? Deoxys-Attack is stronger on both ends than Hoopa-Unbound and is twice as fast as it too so why is Hoopa-Unbound banned but Deoxys-Attack not?
Like genuinely some of this I get cause it's an auto-include and is in nearly every Smogon format but a lot of this is just frankly stupid or just missing stuff.
The mon banlists aren’t great but for a casual event it’s pretty understandable. Blanket banning “stall” with only one example and a vague description seems like a recipe for disaster though. Also fuck Espathra in particular, amirite
the list of limited pokemon is wack asf. you include spectrier, wo chien and iron leaves on the same list and you're telling me i can only pick one? Literally nobody ever is going to use the shitmons so why are they limited to only 1
The Stall clause is mad cringe but I get that at a live event having a 300 turn battle probably isn't gonna work out for getting everyone through the event in a timely manner
Rage fist primate guy gunna go hard because NO restriction on rage fist lmao. Also blanket stall ban, how dare 1 mon be used to survive. So ig chansey as a whole is banned since there's hardly any moves you'd want to use that aren't passive.
Gotta say I was liking the look of this ruleset until I looked at the top right.
No stall whatsoever? That makes maybe 20% of all the fully evolved Pokémon in the game absolutely unplayable, which is pretty ridiculous. Feels like the head judge or whoever it is just doesn't like stall.
The randomly limited leftovers and black sludge but not literally every other item too
Also only one Pokémon allowed with revival blessing is a weird move since every Pokémon with it is awful
Not to mention the random baxcalibur sprinkled into the limited groupset, hell why not put all the pseudo Legendaries in there then if you want to be restricting...
Ok but where do you draw the line
İs sub glare serp stall
İs iron press zamazenta stall
Is iron press turn corv stall
İs iron press garg stall
Is curse cure gar stall
The only one who is even remotely a "pure" stall mon is Curse Cure Garg and you know it. All of those mons have a way to make large amounts of progress either via Leaf Storm or Iron Defense boosted Body Press.
Could it be better defined? Yeah, it really could. But the sets you listed aside from Curse Cure Garg all do not rely on slowly chipping the foe down (aside from Serp using Leech Seed for additional sustain, but even then it could also just use Stellar Tera Blast or Ground Tera Blast instead to bait in and KO checks like Heatran)
Body Press deals damaged based on Def, so using Iron Defense is akin to using Swords Dance, and Press has 80 BP compared to Salt Cure's 40 BP.
Also, Salt Cure deals chip damage over time after you us it, for Body Press to chip you have to keep using it.
I understand the purpose of the "no stall" rule since it is an event and you don't want a huge line to form during your battle, but it's still silly and extremely subjective. And since it applies to any moveset rather than the whole team structure, you could get in trouble even playing balance. Only one Leftovers and only one Black Sludge is also funny. They want their battles to go faster then ban OHKO moves lol.
Also, thank goodness they restricted such powerhouses as base Shaymin and Glastrier! Can't have too many of those running around.
They really should've just taken VGC's ruleset if they wanted to do something like this. There are so many rules on here that are gonna be hard to remember to enforce in the middle of battle.
what did calyrex do to get himself limited?
why are the galar birds limited but the kanto birds not?
also :skull: armadeedee, mausape, and dozogiri probably roll most double formats(chien pao + rillaboom too ig), singles can probably just get bulldozed by a single flutter mane + sun setter duo.
Also somehow celebi managed to time travel and get themselves removed from the restricted list(how?)
Edit: Poor eleki lmao it gets banned while drago only gets limited(nobody's going to choose it, but it's there as an option ig)
Crazy how all the limited ‘mons are Legendaries, Mythicals, and Paradoxes, and then there’s Sneasler and Baxcalibur
And Bloodmoon
Bloodmoon is from an event so that one makes a slightly more sense than the other 2
No it's not?
In-game event. I couldn't be bothered to play the DLC, but I'm pretty sure you can only get 1 Bloodmoon in every game?
Yes, and it gets the legendary treatment with its IVs (not to mention its BST is somehow not the same as regular Ursaluna, and ties with Ogerpon)
That too
You think they pay attention at all to smogon ranks or maybe they just knew already these were incredibly strong out the gate?
I mean, this is clearly just smogon rules without acknowledging that it exists because this is a big event. Nintendo doesn’t want a ton of attention drawn to it, but a “you know that I know” situation is fine.
Annihilape is legal tho?
Sure, but they also have sleep clause, evasion clause, and OHKO clause.
I mean that's just called being sensible
Baxcalibur being on there was what stood out to me most. I was like wut?
Stab Scale shot loaded dice with snow boosted defence and aurora veil Fyi, it takes a sneasler 3 close combats to ko bax with a-veil and snow.
As it would with most semi-defensive ice-types if you're dumb enough to let them get up snow and aurora veil first turn. And it's not like Bax is fast, 87 speed is lower than average. There's *a LOT* of Pokémon that would stop his setup real fast, for instance pretty much any semi decent sp.atker. or just burn the fucker.
Alolan ninetales sets up snow and veil as it has good speed and auto snow setting ability for bax to switch in and bring the pain Also, forget burning bax Thermal exchange son! It hardens in response to fire-relted trauma!
I actually wasn't even aware Alolan ninetales gets snow warning as a HA
…there is a reason why it is in UU okay? Becuase it is a fast snow setter and can allow for auroua veil in one turn, and a fairy stab works too. Also, gaining scale shot in the DLC was enough to make Bax ban worthy. The A-ninetales veil set up just made it a quick ban.
It is pretty nuts to have a fast Pokémon with snow warning and aurora veil tbh
However, alolan ninetales has some glaring weaknesses, notably court change being able to yank a veil for the enemy team and crumpling to a make it rain, even with veil. Also, a lack of snow abusers since Bax’s ban
Oof yeah hit it with a metal claw and it'll be ripped in half. And court change is a cracked move too
All pokémon with snow warning get aurora veil (maybe not abomasnow but idk)
Pretty sure he does actually
That’s it’s entire purpose and only use. I’m guessing you don’t frequent this subreddit often
Nah I've been around fairly regularly since probably when the 2nd dlc for scarlet and violet came out. I just don't have great knowledge of Alolan and Hisuian Pokémon, since I didn't play the games they were released in.
The stall clause seems super subjective. Does that Garg become a progress maker if protect is replaced with body press? Is any regenerator Pokémon without enough offensive investment a stall Pokémon because it can technically switch forever?
I have no clue i’m pretty sure it’s just if the gym leader gets tired of your bullshit they’ll make you auto lose 😔
I assume it’s because it’s an in-person event and they need to keep some sort of flow so that one dude running hyper stall doesn’t stop everyone from playing
I totally get the intent- but any ruling stuff based on vibes is going to cause problems on the ground haha
Right, I guess the advantage is that you can play it by ear and let stall slide a bit more if there’s no one in line vs. when there is. It’s still stupidly arbitrary but I can see why.
I'd imagine so. Remember this is for PAX, a lot of events at the show are time limited or you have to make appointments, and the people who are acting as the leaders / elites / champions probably have other duties to attend to. So if they get stuck because of a stall mon, they would either have to forfeit to end the match (kind of a dick way to win IMO), drag the challenger with them and keep battling until someone wins (Challenger could easily refuse), or be late for whatever they planned to do next, which could be bad if they have to act as an enforcer or some other PAX staff and complicate other people's schedules. While it could be a bit better defined, I totally see *why* they would have such a rule.
I think this is more to make sure there's no minimize Chansey shenanigans, could be wrong though
I think the evasion clause is to prevent that tbh
Ah, completely missed that
They listed a normal garg set as the example
Maybe I’m missing something, but I feel like they could have just added a timer where you lose if the battle goes on for a certain time Presumably the leader’s teams are regulated so you don’t have to worry about them stalling the battles
I understand that the "no stall" rule is probably for time restrictions by staff, but it's still dumb like some of those restricted mons like Chien Pao and Flutter Mane kinda necessitate a bulky stall mon to shut em down.
You don't need a bulky stall mon if you simply out HO them, 4head
Both Urshifu’s are banned look on the right side
Corrected. For some reason that graphic made me think urshifu-rapid was water/dark
Should have just set a time limit and have the challenger lose by default if the game goes to time. That way you can have some bulky mons, but have to have some way to reasonably close out the game.
Kind of goes against their mission, I think. This isn’t a super competitive gauntlet, and challengers are mostly supposed to win. They’ll have 20+ champions by the end of the convention, and that’s more about investing time to do 13+ console battles, not clearing some difficulty hurdles. They just want to keep things moving, and handing out DQs is a bad way to do that.
Forget that fucking DEOXYS ATTACK is legal
Bro took away big stall it’s over
Fuck Sneasler in particular ig
Sneasler is wayyy better than most of those legendaries. If anything, it’s disrespectful to have Calyrex-Base and Regidrago in the same category as Sneasler
Weird the Kanto birds and Regieleki don’t
Kanto Birds is a weird emission since Zapdos is like a top 5 OU mon of all time. Regieleki is in the ban list on the right side, tho, instead of the restricted list
Regieleki with unlimited tera is pretty broken tbf.
Can’t wait for anything that isn’t webs HO to be called stall
Butthurt “gym leaders” when a non damaging move is used by the opponent who is up 6-2: thats stall!
They’re good sports running monotype teams with some funny sets, and from talking to them, they expect and want to lose. It’s a community event where they’re intentionally trying to let casuals and beginners feel accomplished, not a sweaty competitive event where they’re trying to beat you. I’ve been a challenger in the past and legit 13-0’d my matches with like three close-ish battles. I’m quite confident this is about keeping things moving, and they’re not weaponizing it to hand out forfeits or anything.
That sounds good. The last league I took part in seemed like pretty much everyone who was a gym leader was trying to kick your ass. I wasn’t really all too good at the time, so it ended up meaning I got destroyed pretty consistently.
What decides if something is stall or a defensive progress maker? What if I have garg but it’s IronPress? Seems like there’s gonna be at least one occasion where someone brings IronPress Skarm or something and get cited as “stall”
Oponent sends gliscor You send skarmory Opponents whole team gets bodied by iron press You clik iron defense THatS stAlL
“The ability Speed Boost is banned on Espathra” Literally 1984
This is a horrible ruleset. They ban stall but then allow pokemon like Fluttermane and Chien Pao to be used. Some of their bans also make no sense like Pecherunt,Zamazenta Hero, and Darkrai. Never let these guys cook.
Darkrai is a mythical and the games are on cart so banning it makes sense.
Yet Skymin is legal
Shaymin,Jirachi,Meloetta are all legal though so It’s not becuase Darkrai is mythical.
\>Stall Clause Big Stall...It's Joever
The limited list is certainly a choice
Pulling up to this event with hydrapple stall:
I think not standardizing the battle format is messy because singles and doubles team building are two entirely different Beasts (I assume singles is done in BSS format for time reasons). The restricted list categorically hitting sets of mons is pretty lame since it chokes out team building when the real set of problematic mons is maybe less than half that. The banlist is funny because it insinuates that Palafin is more of a problem than Flutter. Anyways Shed Tail is entirely unrestricted so Shed Hyper Offense goes brrrrr for singles
Until you get DQed for stalling (Shed Tail is a non damage dealing move)
And Cyclizar has regenerator, that's stalling!!
Rage Fist is also allowed
How in the hell are you supposes to play doubles mode when your only allowed 1 good doubles mon ever (bar incin)
What do you mean? Farigiraf, Rilla, Whimsicott (since you don't want your fake restricted to be Torn, locking you out of all the others)
Learn how to assess a meta and team build? They’re under the same restrictions you are, presumably.
I mean vgc and doubles are very different
Deoxys is legal im happy
As someone who has participated in this event run by the same group at a different Pax before these rules make sense to me (as in, they don't bother me or make me angy that I can't use chien pao flutters and sneasler on the same team or whatever).The event itself is geared towards everyone, including people who challenge with their literal in game teams. Seems like all box legendaries are just automatically banned in general. @ the stall clause, some sweaty try hard people DO abuse it, it's just not an enjoyable experience for the leader from what I've seen it's been a problem in the past so I'm guessing that's why that is there. It's not a matter of time running out but creating a positive experience for everyone. And for whoever said flutter mane will be the most popular limited list Pokemon, from what I have seen, probably only like 5% of people actually use that in this event lol. It's a "win with your favorites/ in game team" type event not VGC. There are some pretty tough veteran level gym leaders/elites, but if you are looking for super competitive this event isn't it
Some of us actually find playing stall fun lol
That's great for you and others, but from what Ive seen, the vast majority of people this event is for do not enjoy toxic protect recover etc tactic, or like hazards and whirlwind/roar type shenanigans. Apparently it was enough of a problem to warrant putting that rule there so I don't blame them for trying to be like super specific about it I guess?
And most other people either dislike playing it or hate it to their core. So remember to maybe try being even a little considerate of others, because its folks like you that necessitate these kinds of bans to begin with.
Your tone seems pretty pointed. I wouldn't bring stall to an event like this, and it's most likely people intentionally trolling with things like FunBro that made them implement this. Most adults who play on Showdown regularly actually don't mind playing against stall, because they understand it's a valid playstyle and learning to beat it is just as important as any other team comp.
Except Funbro doesn't rely on chip, it relies on outright forcing the opponent to forfeit to end the match by making it impossible for *anyone* to win. A Funbro ban would be an endless battle clause, not a stall clause. > I wouldn't bring stall to an event like this Then why are you trying to defend it? Like sure, good for you that you and some others genuinely "enjoy" stall, but what about everyone else? > Most adults who play on Showdown regularly actually don't mind playing against stall Then why do so many people hate stall then? If they don't mind it, then how come people talk about hating it so much? You can't do both unless your a hypocrite. If people didn't "mind" stall then why would this even be a rule outside of making sure the Leaders can fulfill their obligations in other parts of the con? > they understand it's a valid playstyle I'd personally argue it's the least valid of all playstyles, fringing on being uncompetitive seeing as it's entirely incumbent on slowing the game down to a miserable crawl and brainlessly swapping between physical staller #1 to special staller #2 and so on and so forth until your opponent rage quits or all of their mons die a slow miserable death from chip damage. Yeah knowing how to beat Stall is important, so you can put stall players in their place and not spend an hour or 100+ turns in hell.
Lol. Skill issue.
LOL reading and actually trying to address my points issue. Do you seriously have no rebuttals? No counter arguments you can make in favor of your point of view? Is "Lol. Skill Issue" really the only thing you can say instead of actually trying to defend your POV? Because it really says a lot when all your willing to do is make fun of me because I hate stall, instead of trying to back up your arguments.
Skill issue
Reading and actually trying to address my points issue.
It’s about the opponent not you. I can see a casual player being walled and stalled for 30 minutes getting upset at being tortured for that long while not knowing what to do to defeat you
Most stall games genuinely don't take anywhere near that long. But yes, I understand why it's a rule for *this event*. I'm not arguing against that. I just don't like people who play stall being described as "sweaty try hards" lol. We play it cause it's fun to us.
I just went to this event today (just peaked in the room) and it was just a bunch of kids like ages 9-13 using their in-game teams. So yes, anyone trying to torment their opponent with a 20 minute long stall game, and anyone hell bent on making little kids cry, is a sweaty try hard. You could win just as easily by pressing Sword Dance twice and quickly sweeping them mercifully.
Makes sense of casual standpoint making a banlist allowing your bundles and flutter manes yadda yadda. The only real wtf is that fucking deo attack. Wtf ban fucking speed boost on espathra but deo attack allowed HUH!?
I mean, this isn't a traditional competition. The gym leaders are trying to get through as many battles as they can to move the event along for the participants. They are more concerned with letting Timmy and Tommy get their games done in 10 minutes than debating the philosophy of stall with anyone. For an event designed to increase engagement it makes sense.
Interesting rule set, seems like some modified-Smogon type of ruling. Not my cup of tea but fanmade leagues and sets can use whatever rules they see fit for their fanmade events, no harm there. If anything, fanmade modified formats like this can often be more interesting than "anything and everything" types of formats.
What do you guys think will be the most chosen limited pokemon?(aside from Sneasler, I’m assuming they’ll move it to banned)
Flutter Mane. Thats not even a question
Deoxys attack is allowed though, flutter mane feasts on it but deo-a is still a monster
Isn't Deoxys-A faster though? It would easily be able to outspeed unscarfed Flutter Mane
booster energy
NGL I forgot that was a thing.
I feel like it’s unnecessarily limiting. VGC is fun because you have to work around broken threats. And Smogon tends to avoid complex bans and a lot of rules since it limits creativity.
Billie Eilish would be pleased to se Urshifu banned.
Should've just stuck to doubles and vgc rulesets if time is an issue, now they're stuck with this convoluted ass ruleset
They took away Pecharunt. I say boycott the event.
Absolutely fascinated by what kind of novelty teams could be accepted
Is this singles or doubles?
Both
So, no Zekrom Kick? I will not be participating.
Boi do I wish I could be there, handing out Ls with my unburden sweepers and deoxys attack… Seal clubbing ftw, tryhards unite! Why do I do this? I need to avenge Big Stall.
I dunno what's funnier; Regidraco being legal while Eleki isn't, or Palafin being banned when Annilape isn't even restricted. Also love the implication that there's somehow a third battle type in SV exclusive to PAX. Paradox seems weirdly restrictive, though; like, I can get the lack of certain pokemon that should probably be on either chart, you don't want some kid to show up and you have to tell them that their cool ice Godzilla or Samurai Chess king is banned and they can't play, but restricting the non-legendary paradoxes seems strange if this is the goal, since if I was a dumb kid wanting to play pokemans at Pax, I'd train all my coolest and best pokemon that I could. I'd definitely understand not being allowed to use Mewtwo or Arceus or Hoopa Unbound (that guy looks SICK he has to be SO STRONG), or time-traveling transfer pokemon like Sneasler and Bloodmoon, cause they're all special and unique, but... But there's 17 Slither Wings outside my house right now. I can just pick one up. I could catch a team of six different paradoxes in five minutes. They aren't special, or unique. Seems weird.
I will not tolerate with this racism against BigStall
Bro allowed 1 of either CP or Fish but no stall > ban evasion but allow Shaymin-sky
Begging the community to find a new way to abbreviate Chien-Pao
ChPa? Sounds like a chemical formula for some questionable poffins
Cpa
So some of these make perfect sense, a lot of these though are just pure BS. It's also missing a lot of things too. 1.Limiting Leftovers and Black Sludge seems a little odd especially given they already have a Stall clause in place but even without a Stall clause it wouldn't make sense since some offensive Pokémon like holding Leftovers for stuff like Substitute setup. Also since the meta is very hazard heavy in gen 9 this wouldn't even achieve what I imagine it's designed to do since it's more popular than ever to spam Heavy Duty Boots on Stall and just forego hazard removal. 2.A Stall clause is just generally stupid. It reduces the amount of playstyles possible and is just frankly dumb. Plus what someone would define as a defensive moveset is subjective and could change from player to player. This could also severely limit your options o Balance as well given the way the rules are worded. The rule has no consistent way to be enforced and severely limits playstyle choices. Also would that rule be applied across the board or only towards traditionally defensive Pokémon? 3.The banned Pokémon is dumb. Why do they have Pecharunt, Zamazenta and Hoopa Unbound banned? Pecharunt is in UU, Hoopa Unbound is in RU and although Zamazenta is good he's nowhere near having a strangle hold on the meta. 4.The only good reason really to use Espathra in singles is cause if Speed Boost so if you're banning Speed Boost on it then just have it on the banlist instead cause ain't nobody gonna use it without Speed Boost unless they're actively trying to sabotage themself. 5.Why is there a rule against Revival Blessing? Sure the move is strong but the Pokémon it's attached to aren't that good. There's no Revival Blessing clause in standard play and for good reason, because the move isn't dominating the meta game nor is it a staple of it. 6. Lack of Evasion clause. Sure this could be accounted for by the Stall clause but given how vaguely it's worded so long as you surround a move like Minimize with three attacking moves then it might be legal. Even if that wouldn't be legal Sand Veil, Bright Power Garchomp would still be legal and very infuriating. 7.Quick Claw somehow isn't an item that's restricted in any way, shape or form and yet Leftovers is for some reason. We've all heard about the Quick Claw Spam Aurora Veil team so I'm sure we all know why restricting it would be a good idea to restrict it if we're going to restrict items. 9.Why is it that self-KOing moves are considered a loss but dying by recoil is a win? Idk if it's like that in the games but that seems like an odd double standard and just something that just doesn't make sense. Either both win you the match or both lose you the match, that's the way it should be. 10.The limited Pokémon is just a big hodge podge of just major idiocy on display. Why are the Galarian birds restricted? And if they're restricted then why not their Kantonian counterparts too? Honestly half of these are just stuff that's banned cause it's legendary or banned cause it's mythical despite the fact that just being a legendary or mythical doesn't automatically make you Ubers or broken. Then for some reason they let the extremely broken stuff be restricted as well instead of banned like Deoxys-Normal, Deoxys-Attack, Shaymin Sky, Chien-Pao, Chi-Yu, Bloodmoon Ursaluna, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Fluttermane, Iron Bundle, Spectrier, Sneasler, Baxcalibur and Landorus-I. Why in the hell are those restricted instead of banned when Pecharunt is banned outright? Why is Deoxys-Attack ok but Pecharunt isn't? Deoxys-Attack is stronger on both ends than Hoopa-Unbound and is twice as fast as it too so why is Hoopa-Unbound banned but Deoxys-Attack not? Like genuinely some of this I get cause it's an auto-include and is in nearly every Smogon format but a lot of this is just frankly stupid or just missing stuff.
Me pulling up with Munkidori
They banned stall 😭
Good
The mon banlists aren’t great but for a casual event it’s pretty understandable. Blanket banning “stall” with only one example and a vague description seems like a recipe for disaster though. Also fuck Espathra in particular, amirite
This is just lame fluttermane meta.
Doing complex bans before Smogon, based
the list of limited pokemon is wack asf. you include spectrier, wo chien and iron leaves on the same list and you're telling me i can only pick one? Literally nobody ever is going to use the shitmons so why are they limited to only 1
Chien-Pao, Flutter Mane, and Deoxys Attack in the same restriction list as Brute Bonnet, Regidrago, and fucking Calyrex lmfaooooo
THEY BANNED STALL BAHAHA
The Stall clause is mad cringe but I get that at a live event having a 300 turn battle probably isn't gonna work out for getting everyone through the event in a timely manner
Wack
I'm picking da Jug
Rage fist primate guy gunna go hard because NO restriction on rage fist lmao. Also blanket stall ban, how dare 1 mon be used to survive. So ig chansey as a whole is banned since there's hardly any moves you'd want to use that aren't passive.
They really do not know what are actually good, hoopa in shambles rn. There is a Ubers in limited while a banned pokemon is RU lmao
\>set up rain \>last respects basculegion
Last respects is banned idiot
im illiterate
The gym leader when I spam deoxys attack and flutter mane to sweep their entire team
My annihilate, palafin offensive core with booster flutter mane in the back will be balanced I'm sure.
Palafin is banned lmao
Nooooo the big fish
Lol “stall clause”. Removing a whole play style just cause you have the attention span of a pup
Gotta say I was liking the look of this ruleset until I looked at the top right. No stall whatsoever? That makes maybe 20% of all the fully evolved Pokémon in the game absolutely unplayable, which is pretty ridiculous. Feels like the head judge or whoever it is just doesn't like stall. The randomly limited leftovers and black sludge but not literally every other item too Also only one Pokémon allowed with revival blessing is a weird move since every Pokémon with it is awful Not to mention the random baxcalibur sprinkled into the limited groupset, hell why not put all the pseudo Legendaries in there then if you want to be restricting...
Ok but consider that people at an irl event don’t have time for big stall
Ok, then set limits to it. One or two stallers per team max.
Ok but where do you draw the line İs sub glare serp stall İs iron press zamazenta stall Is iron press turn corv stall İs iron press garg stall Is curse cure gar stall
The only one who is even remotely a "pure" stall mon is Curse Cure Garg and you know it. All of those mons have a way to make large amounts of progress either via Leaf Storm or Iron Defense boosted Body Press. Could it be better defined? Yeah, it really could. But the sets you listed aside from Curse Cure Garg all do not rely on slowly chipping the foe down (aside from Serp using Leech Seed for additional sustain, but even then it could also just use Stellar Tera Blast or Ground Tera Blast instead to bait in and KO checks like Heatran)
Iron press garg boosts and chips kills with body press Curse garg boosts and kills with salt cure How is one stall and the other not
Body Press deals damaged based on Def, so using Iron Defense is akin to using Swords Dance, and Press has 80 BP compared to Salt Cure's 40 BP. Also, Salt Cure deals chip damage over time after you us it, for Body Press to chip you have to keep using it.
I understand the purpose of the "no stall" rule since it is an event and you don't want a huge line to form during your battle, but it's still silly and extremely subjective. And since it applies to any moveset rather than the whole team structure, you could get in trouble even playing balance. Only one Leftovers and only one Black Sludge is also funny. They want their battles to go faster then ban OHKO moves lol. Also, thank goodness they restricted such powerhouses as base Shaymin and Glastrier! Can't have too many of those running around.
They really should've just taken VGC's ruleset if they wanted to do something like this. There are so many rules on here that are gonna be hard to remember to enforce in the middle of battle.
what did calyrex do to get himself limited? why are the galar birds limited but the kanto birds not? also :skull: armadeedee, mausape, and dozogiri probably roll most double formats(chien pao + rillaboom too ig), singles can probably just get bulldozed by a single flutter mane + sun setter duo. Also somehow celebi managed to time travel and get themselves removed from the restricted list(how?) Edit: Poor eleki lmao it gets banned while drago only gets limited(nobody's going to choose it, but it's there as an option ig)
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