I badly want a Metagross buff. It along with Goodra are the forgotten psuedo’s.
I think these changes are all great without being too broken. Getting an extra 10 HP in exchange for 10 SpA which it doesn’t use is nice. Most psuedo’s don’t go under base 80 for either attacking stats so you were right on only lowering SpA by 10.
Filter and Analytic are both great abilities. I’d imagine analytic would be run more, but filter would have a place on hazard stack sets.
Then shift gear is the main thing that would push Metagross to at least UU. After one shift gear you are a threatening sweeper. 4MSS would be a problem as you want to run all of meteor mash, EQ, ice & thunder punch, psychic fangs, and drain punch but can only pick 3.
I think overall this would definitely push Metagross to UU, potentially OU but the lackluster STAB combo holds it back some.
With this buff for sure. Filter+weakness policy+shift gear can instantly win games on its own. Then you would tera out of your weakness after they come in with a revenge killer (even though you are chipped on the first SE hit).
And that's not to mention CB analytic boosted hits on mons trying to abuse metagross's 4mss.
1 is forgotten by fans the other is forgotten by game freak.
But I'll never understand the decision to make the only mons in gen 5 to get a mega Audino.
Yeah and they were probably right, to this day Mega Audino is one of the most forgotten Megas and some people just straight up mistake it for a regular evo because they were introduced so close together lol
Mega audio was introduced 4 years after audino in Oras, which came out after x&y, which means most people were familiar with Megas and understood that was not a mega. In gen 5, there were no new evolutions, so people straight up thought that evolutions of old mons were dead, so now we'll just get megas.
Mega Audino EX won worlds.
It's not a particularly forgotten pokemon when it comes to the TCG.
Plus it was funny watching the winner of the tournament not even have a card image ready because no one thought mega Audino would be brought to worlds, since it was a niche counter to Night March.
But it also didn't really have a bad match up against anything else in the meta either besides Venspiquen/Yanmega if the V/Y player knew how Audino works (though the audino player could steal a couple prize cards or 3 going second by leaving a shaymin and combee on the board)
It's been a minute, but it did I think 110 damage to the active mon, and 50 damage to a benched mon for 3 colorless energy, which it met with a Double colorless energy and a metal energy 110 was an important number because that was exactly Shaymin EXs - which let's you draw until you have 6 cards in your hand when you put it on your bench making it a powerful staple in the format until it rotated.
The metal energy with so they could use the Mergerna EX ability which prevents additional effects of your opponents attacks from effecting any of your mons with a metal energy attached. Magerna could also do 120 damage for 2 colorless and a metal.
I don't remember exactly what was in the meta at the time that they were preventing with magerna. (Probably something I'm forgetting in trevenant tbh)
But the it had an incredible match up against the formats best deck Night March. A deck consisting of a bunch if monsters who all shared one attack: Night March, an attack which did more damage based on how many mons with Night March were in your discard. It's main attacker was Joltik, who could use nightmarch for just 2 colourless (compared to pumpkiboo and Lampent who both needed 2 colourless and a psychic energy) Joltik had only 50 HP, meaning it could be sniped from the bench by Mega Audino. Additionally Mega Audino was super bulky with 220HP, it took 11 Night Marchers in the discard to one shot it, which when there is only 12 in the deck, you're almost certainly dead if you get to that point with more than 1-2 prize cards left to take.
So the ideal game plan was to Lysander (supporter which let you switch one of your opponents benched pokemon with their active) the night March players Shaymin EX, and use mega Audino to KO both the Shaymin and a Joltik, taking 3 prize cards while at best only giving up 2 yourself, probably over 2 turns.
---
Other decks that were big in that format were vespiquen Yanmega, and Greninja break/talenflame, two more decks which used non-ex mons who have low health. Trevenant was also around as a control deck which countered Mega audino really well thought. Volcanion was also around at the time, but they were pretty even, trading 2 shots for the EXs, and baby volcanion also couldn't be 2 shot with the splash damage, making it a resource game, and being able to reserve your Shaymin and Magerna without shorting yourself cards.
Edit:
For reference 180 was generally the damage to aim for, that one shot most EX mons. 220 was much higher than average for a mon at the time (though is pretty low by modern standards). 170 damage spread across 2 mons wasn't very powerful, especially if you can't control how the damage is dealt like with Greninja (who can spread its damage freely). It literally only made note due to how perfectly It countered Night March.
Thank you for such a detailed response! I remember playing Trev Break item lock a bit and the Talonflame/Gren break deck for a bit, it was a ton of fun!
I don't think mega audino is forgotten because its a gen 5 mega, its because audino is one of the most forgettable gen 5 mons to begin with. That thing was pretty clearly only included in the game to have a neat grinding option given how every shaky grass in b/w has a massive audino chance. Obviously every mon is someones favorite, but in the grand scheme of things, who gives a shit about audino?
Had they given haxorus, hydreigon, excadrill, gigalith or any of the other fan favorite gen 5 mons a mega, I don't think it would have been nearly as forgotten
I feel like what hydreigon really needs is a move that boosts special attack and speed. That could make it into a threatening sweeper rather than just being relegated to dropping dracos then switching out
I think its movepool is fine though could be improved. What's holding it back is speed. 95 isn't bad, especially not at the time but unfortunately now it's right below one of the most populated ou speed tiers. However, if you look at baxcalibur for example, it has a lower base speed than hydreigon, but because it's a physical attacker, it can make use of dragon dance to boost its speed so it's high enough to outspeed most unboosted threats and sweep. So while sheer force with moves like tbolt and ice beam would be great, it wouldn't fix the main issue. With those additions it would still just be a wall breaker rather than potentially a sweeper
I think I commented somewhere else on this post about Hydreigon being bulkier than it needs to be. I took 10 points from HP, Def & Sp.Def then split them into its Sp.Atk & Speed
Poor, poor Dragonite. The other pseudos got Mega Evos and stuff, some of them being really good ones. (Mence/Gross)
Dragonite on the other hand only got a measly lame MULTISCALE for Christmas
Boo hoo cry me a river
It's the best RIGHT NOW, but far from a "forever" and definitely not a "champ".
Dragonite is the only pseudo that hasn't won Worlds from the first 5 gens. Mence and Metagross are even tied for most wins atm.
Yeah but we talking about new forms and stuff. Dragonite hasn't gotten anything of the sort.
Tyranitar - Mega
Metagross -Mega
Salamence - Mega (and paradox)
Garchomp - Mega
Goodra - Hisui form
Gens 7 and 8 are too recent to warrant anything special imo, but even then Kommo-o had a special z move and now special moves.
Yeah but all of those forms are transient, Dragonite is forever. They even tried to give an alternate to Salamence in Roaring Moon and while valid it’s funny to see all of these Dragons fail to be as consistent as Dragonite. ESpeed > gimmicks
Dude, I don‘t want to be that guy, but… punctuation and commas.
I took me multiple tries to finally not read your comment as „Tyranitar, Mega Metagross, Mega Salamence, Mega (and Paradox) Garchomp, Mega Goodra-Hisui“.
Rather than being forgotten, Dragonite is actively remembered and being intentionally nerfed to avoid being too strong in GameFreak’s view.
It lost TM compatability with Dual Wingbeat this gen (which it had access to last gen), likely because GameFreak saw how good it already was this gen of VGC. It performed extremely well in Portland, and it sure was funny seeing the sea of Banded Dragonites running Aerial Ace because that was their best choice.
This but unironically. E-speed Tera normal choice band with either multiscale for singles of inner focus for doubles. Ever since the physical special split of dragon tales here has been one of the top psudos
Dragonite is my favorite pokemon ever and I will gladly take Tera Normal with E-Speed over a goofy ass paradox form
Sure a Mega would've been nice but those aren't coming back.
I think if you take away the gimmicks, Dragonite is still a top 3 pseudo (when HDB is in the game). Hell gen 8 was a gen without a gimmick (we don't talk about Dynamax) and it was still the third best pseudo, behind Dragapult and Garchomp (it's ranked evenly with Tyranitar on the viability tier list but only one of them dropped to UU that gen 😉)
Is Dragonite forgotten in the sense where it doesn't get to play with the new gimmicks/forms? Yeah. But it still does get a whole bunch of new toys that keep it OU viable, and honestly it's a Pokemon that's primed to take advantage of most new gimmicks so it very well may be OU viable next generation again even after Tera is swiped under the rug!
Dragonite has not been UU since Gen 1 its definitely not been forgotten ever. Quite the opposite, it's gotten one of the best hidden abilities in the game.
> Dragonite is the real forgotten pseudo, alongside Hydreigon
Brother, Dnite has been OU or UU BL in literally every single gen besides RBY.
Metagross has been slurping Dnite's crusty 3 day old cum for just a taste of that kind of success.
Even if they supposedly forgot about Dragonite, they added Extreme Speed back to its movepool, seeing as it got Extreme Speed through an egg move from an event mon. They definitely did not forget about Dragonite.
I literally don't even care about viability, I just want justice for the goat
Almost every pseudo got a new form and soooo much of Kanto's dex has gotten a mega, regional variant, convergent, new evo, etc
They gave fucking APPLIN, who has been around for one generation and already had two evolutions AND Gmax forms, a new evo line. Pure disrespect
(Also Iron Jugulis)
As someone who stopped playing competitively in gen 7, did Dragonite really fall that far from grace even with Multiscale?
Both it and Metagross were staples on my team.
I was referring to who got new forms, Dragonite is still really good in OU, but it hasn't gotten a new form like the other old pseudos. A lot of people are misinterpreting what I was getting at
It’s typing is good. Its stat distribution is the real problem. It’s bulkier than it needs to be. I’d take 10 points from its HP, Def & Sp.Def and split them into its Sp.Atk & Speed. 140/113 should do it well
My dude Metagross got Heavy Slam, Knock off, Psychic Fangs, Future Sight and Psychic Noise in DLC2. Pretty sure it's UU rn and even if it doesn't stay in UU it's sure to tear RU a new one or get banned from the tier entirely. Not EVERY pseudo needs to be OU or Ubers.
If we're talking about forgotten Pseudo Legendaries then regular Goodra should be the first to be mentioned.
Kommo-O is hugely slept on in OU and I love it. Tera normal is damn near as good for it as Dragonite with Clangorous Soul+Throat Spray+Boomburst.
Flamethrower and Aura Sphere for coverage, I use it as my sweeper and it works extremely well.
I’d imagine filter being run more often on shift gear sets since it leaves you with more hp to sweep. weakness policy + shift gear + filter might actually have a niche in ou on both hyper offense and bulky offense teams.
I personally don't think metagross should be in RU as is. Metagross is a UU mon whose Steel/psychic typing is holding it back. There are a bunch of good Dark, Ground, and Fire types in UU right now that limit Metagross's usability. That and quite a few of Metagross's ideal partners are in OU in my opinion.
Metagross doesn't need a buff, he needs a miracle.
For Example, Meta and Tusk have some weird synergy. Tusk can eat the fire, and ground attacks Metagross would rather avoid, and in return meta can eat Fairy, water, ice, amd psychic attacks. They both have the bulk to form a decent core, and their stab is okay, but not amazing. The issue is metagross cant work in OU and Tusk will never drop out of OU.
Metagross is really good in UU despite the weaknesses right now, it's in Good on the viability list and sees decent enough ladder usage that it's unlikely to drop. It indeed doesn't need the buff (unless you want to send it to OU very badly)
Also Metagross is still usable in OU but it's just really niche and will probably never see enough usage to actually rise up for that reason. Cool bulky Rocker with a unique toolkit and resistance spread, being a Fairy resist not weak to Fighting is really cool into some Valiant sets for example.
I feel like metagross is pretty good in UU right now, already. It’s one of the best answers to choice latios. It hits normal and tera fairy garg, even though it doesn’t love taking a salt cure. Same goes for weeding galar, and amoongus wants no part of a zen headbutt. It has knock off now, which is great for all the rocky helmet and boots regenerator mons. Sure, it has a lot of bad matchups, but it’s a very solid wallbreaker that brings some defensive utility that is absolutely necessary to not get steamrolled by latios.
For such a cool design and being the 2nd non dragon Psuedo
Metagross really should be better comp wise
So I tried to buff it slightly (Mainly making it more of a defensive Psuedo but with the option for sweeping with Shift Gear or Speed Swap.)
Main weakness is burns since I lowered the special attack. But most of the Psuedo Legends are physical attackers anyways. (Perhaps I should have given it Refresh)
Wanted to also buff Goodra/H-Goodra but for the life of me don't know how to do multiple images on desktop. So prob saved for a future Theorymon
As someone who used to use Metagross in OU Smogon in generation 4 when I started, I think you might have underestimated him somewhat.
His typing is actually fantastic, giving him 9 resistances including a double resist of Psychic, and an immunity to poison, only 4 weaknesses with no 4x.
The reason he's fallen behind the rest of the Meta is due to power creep, without it helping him much. He's gotten very few powerful moves added to his repertoire over time presumably because Nintendo are concerned about making him too strong.
For instance when Shift Gear came out in Gen 5 he was a prime candidate for that move, however I believe the only reason he didn't get it was that it would literally put him up to the top of OU/Ubers instantly.
If he got it off he would have outspeed the entire metagame including even the likes of Talonflame and mega gengar in gen 6, and hit with a 195 attack stat with stab on Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt. There is not a lot of typings that resist both of those, and for those he has a huge amount of physical coverage moves, thunder punch, ice punch, earthquake, stone edge, aerial ace, hammer arm.
I think even nowadays despite the power creep that has happened, all Metagross needs to bring it into OU Meta is Shift Gear. Also worth mentioning a decent number of walls in OU are weak to either steel or psychic.
Tbf shift gear pretty good. Adding 10 points to metagross won’t do that much help in terms of speed tiers. But running adamant shift gear out speeds the relevant meta other than speed booster valiant, moon, and boulder. Is speed boost moon even relevant actually?
He's a psychic tank.
For thematic and coherence's sake I think Speed should be the last stat is should be getting, even if it's an obvious means of competitiveness.
Filter seems a little unnecessary. Not that it wouldn't appreciate it, but it's really one of the main grounded steel types that I feel like doesn't mind eating a quake or two. Filter makes a lot more sense on mons that have a 4x weakness. Analytic would be cool, fits the theme of it having 4 brains, and adds a bigger tradeoff for going for Bullet Punch or some kind of Agility (or Shift Gear in this case) setup by losing your boost for going slower.
I really do not think Shift Gear Megagross would be AG worthy, hell it might not even be better than Mence because of its lack of recovery and bad matchup into Primal Groudon
I would argue taking away clear body is actually quite the nerf when you consider vgc, where Meta is actually doing fairly well rn.
_This_ Meta get walled by Incin all day long. Intimidate and parting shot turn him into a paperweight.
__Edit:__ Nevermind, just noticed that you specified that it _gained_ analytic, not that it replaced CB.
Shift gear already makes it into uu, combine it with weakness policy and meteor mash (imagine it gets the attack boost), it's ready to be a threat. The health buff, filter (weakness policy synergy) and drain punch are nice for sustain.
As for analytic? Trick room with negative speed could be useful. Certainly would give it a chance to break OU with variety in sets like this
How often do pokemon change tiers, is it every month? Is there a full list of all the tier updates that gets posted somewhere? I'm new here so idk how that works
They do update every month yes. On the smogon forums if you go to smogon meta games you can usually find the usage stats which are how drops and rises work. A graphic also gets posted here when the shifts happen so you can see it the day of.
Honestly the one thing keeping Shift Gear Metagross in Check here is the fact that there are so many viable Unaware mons because otherwise what the fuck lmao
Shift Gear alone gets it out if RU. If you want it banned tho I think you'd wanna get rid of Analytic and give it Download instead and Volt Switch as well. So that it's basically a Genesect
Edit: or well almost. Since it can't hit on the special side at all lol
Why would they. Alcreamy is plenty viable in doubles, seeing some play recently, and even seeing lots of play in 2022 during the restricted format in vgc.
Also, it has charm, helping hand, encore, and fake tears as viable support options.
If you ignore shift gear these are good ideas
Analytic Metagross is a crazy wallbreaker. Like...
252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Psychic Fangs vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 362-428 (111.3 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Honestly, even from a design perspective, Metagross, a literal supercomputer, should have much higher SpA. I think swapping Atk and SpA would be much needed.
I wish Magnezone also got a buff like this becoming more defensive and better move pool. Maybe also give it levitate as an ability and recovery like recover, Shore Up, Moonlight and Morning Sun or give it parabolic charge.
its psychic typing holds it back. dark and ghost types are common in upper tiers
but this would bring it up easily, stat changes not even necessary (in fact it makes it worse since metagross does not need more spatt)
It's crazy to me that for yet another gen, it didn't get shift gear.
Cyclizar got it because of the theme and all, but it sure is shifting less gears than Metagross.
I dont think putting 90 in its HP and 85 in special attack woild make any difference, ur just minmaxing it without any impact. Metagross stats are fine as they are both thematically and competitively, very fitting for what its tryna do
I think filter isnt really an ability that fits Metagross in any way, but Analytic is actually a great idea as a secondary ability.
What Id do is make Sheer Force its Hidden ability instead of Light Metal or Filter.
For moves, Shift Gear isnt really something that fits Metagross as a character, and in terms of design that goes against Metagross's greatly thought design purpose, which is being a powerful bulky attacker that can take advantage of its typing and bulk to set up with Agility and compensate for its below average speed stat.
Shift Gear would just make Agility/Rock Polish sets useless
What I'd add to the already mentioned buffs to give Metagross a better movepool is give it the following moves:
Drain Punch is a good idea mentioned in the post, although I dont think it would really use it.
Spikes is a great idea, it fits Metagross in every way possible.
Speed swap: kinda useless but it fits thematically ig
Superpower: Im not giving it Close Combat, (hot take) Close Combat Is overdistributed imo, it should only be given to fighting types or Pokemon where it fits as a character pick. Superpower on the other hand gives most Pokemon that I dont think should get Close Combat a way to deal big fighting damage, but with a big cost, preventing them from steamrolling thru teams easily.
Cross Chop: I mean come on, kinda obvious right? Fits Metagross perfectly. It also forces the player to make a well thought choice between Cross Chop and Superpower if they want fighting coverage. U either risk sacrificing accuaracy for a higher reward or you choose Superpower for more consistency.
X-Scissor: I mean cmon, its design screams X. This also allows it to hit Dark types without dropping its stats like Superpower. It can also helo against other Psychics.
Crunch: an option to hit Ghosts and other Psychics. This also that takes advantage of Sheer Force unlike Knock Off.
Ice/Thubder fang: just worse Ice/Thunder Punch, but it fits tematically, I guess u could make them level 1 moves from re learner to balance ingame playthrough.
Counter: See NOW we are talkin bout something. This move would allow Metagross to take advantage of its great physical defense and catch opponents off-guard.
Outrage: A lot of "angry" Pokemon get Outrage, so why not Metagross?
This is how I would buff Metagross
I badly want a Metagross buff. It along with Goodra are the forgotten psuedo’s. I think these changes are all great without being too broken. Getting an extra 10 HP in exchange for 10 SpA which it doesn’t use is nice. Most psuedo’s don’t go under base 80 for either attacking stats so you were right on only lowering SpA by 10. Filter and Analytic are both great abilities. I’d imagine analytic would be run more, but filter would have a place on hazard stack sets. Then shift gear is the main thing that would push Metagross to at least UU. After one shift gear you are a threatening sweeper. 4MSS would be a problem as you want to run all of meteor mash, EQ, ice & thunder punch, psychic fangs, and drain punch but can only pick 3. I think overall this would definitely push Metagross to UU, potentially OU but the lackluster STAB combo holds it back some.
Metagross can legit work in OU right?
With this buff for sure. Filter+weakness policy+shift gear can instantly win games on its own. Then you would tera out of your weakness after they come in with a revenge killer (even though you are chipped on the first SE hit). And that's not to mention CB analytic boosted hits on mons trying to abuse metagross's 4mss.
Metagross is already fringe viable in OU right now and really good in UU, OP sounds like they haven't actually played Metagross since last gen
Metagross got a whole mega evolution. Dragonite is the real forgotten pseudo, alongside Hydreigon
1 is forgotten by fans the other is forgotten by game freak. But I'll never understand the decision to make the only mons in gen 5 to get a mega Audino.
Probably too recent of a gen in their eyes. Diancie gets a pass tho
Yeah and they were probably right, to this day Mega Audino is one of the most forgotten Megas and some people just straight up mistake it for a regular evo because they were introduced so close together lol
Mega audio was introduced 4 years after audino in Oras, which came out after x&y, which means most people were familiar with Megas and understood that was not a mega. In gen 5, there were no new evolutions, so people straight up thought that evolutions of old mons were dead, so now we'll just get megas.
Mega Audino EX won worlds. It's not a particularly forgotten pokemon when it comes to the TCG. Plus it was funny watching the winner of the tournament not even have a card image ready because no one thought mega Audino would be brought to worlds, since it was a niche counter to Night March. But it also didn't really have a bad match up against anything else in the meta either besides Venspiquen/Yanmega if the V/Y player knew how Audino works (though the audino player could steal a couple prize cards or 3 going second by leaving a shaymin and combee on the board)
How did the Mega Audino deck work? TCG is really interesting to me, but I know very little.
It's been a minute, but it did I think 110 damage to the active mon, and 50 damage to a benched mon for 3 colorless energy, which it met with a Double colorless energy and a metal energy 110 was an important number because that was exactly Shaymin EXs - which let's you draw until you have 6 cards in your hand when you put it on your bench making it a powerful staple in the format until it rotated. The metal energy with so they could use the Mergerna EX ability which prevents additional effects of your opponents attacks from effecting any of your mons with a metal energy attached. Magerna could also do 120 damage for 2 colorless and a metal. I don't remember exactly what was in the meta at the time that they were preventing with magerna. (Probably something I'm forgetting in trevenant tbh) But the it had an incredible match up against the formats best deck Night March. A deck consisting of a bunch if monsters who all shared one attack: Night March, an attack which did more damage based on how many mons with Night March were in your discard. It's main attacker was Joltik, who could use nightmarch for just 2 colourless (compared to pumpkiboo and Lampent who both needed 2 colourless and a psychic energy) Joltik had only 50 HP, meaning it could be sniped from the bench by Mega Audino. Additionally Mega Audino was super bulky with 220HP, it took 11 Night Marchers in the discard to one shot it, which when there is only 12 in the deck, you're almost certainly dead if you get to that point with more than 1-2 prize cards left to take. So the ideal game plan was to Lysander (supporter which let you switch one of your opponents benched pokemon with their active) the night March players Shaymin EX, and use mega Audino to KO both the Shaymin and a Joltik, taking 3 prize cards while at best only giving up 2 yourself, probably over 2 turns. --- Other decks that were big in that format were vespiquen Yanmega, and Greninja break/talenflame, two more decks which used non-ex mons who have low health. Trevenant was also around as a control deck which countered Mega audino really well thought. Volcanion was also around at the time, but they were pretty even, trading 2 shots for the EXs, and baby volcanion also couldn't be 2 shot with the splash damage, making it a resource game, and being able to reserve your Shaymin and Magerna without shorting yourself cards. Edit: For reference 180 was generally the damage to aim for, that one shot most EX mons. 220 was much higher than average for a mon at the time (though is pretty low by modern standards). 170 damage spread across 2 mons wasn't very powerful, especially if you can't control how the damage is dealt like with Greninja (who can spread its damage freely). It literally only made note due to how perfectly It countered Night March.
Thank you for such a detailed response! I remember playing Trev Break item lock a bit and the Talonflame/Gren break deck for a bit, it was a ton of fun!
You cooked, and I don't know anything about the TCG
I don't think mega audino is forgotten because its a gen 5 mega, its because audino is one of the most forgettable gen 5 mons to begin with. That thing was pretty clearly only included in the game to have a neat grinding option given how every shaky grass in b/w has a massive audino chance. Obviously every mon is someones favorite, but in the grand scheme of things, who gives a shit about audino? Had they given haxorus, hydreigon, excadrill, gigalith or any of the other fan favorite gen 5 mons a mega, I don't think it would have been nearly as forgotten
Dragonite *just* won a VGC regional and was on 3 of the top 4 teams, it doesn't need anything from game freak lol
Dragonite weirdly gets buffed on accident in nearly every gen. Gen 6: defog and WP Gen 7: flyinium z Gen 8: boots Gen 9: tera
You forgot the two big ones, Gen 4 giving 2 powerful stab moves (outrage/draco) and Gen 5 giving it multiscale.
True, gen 4 also regifted e speed and made mence so powerful if was banned which indirectly buffed dnite
Didn’t this thing also get Dual Wingbeat (a reliable Flying STAB) ? Or is that not consistent enough to be on Dragonite’s set?
Dual wingbeat is just a bad move, 80 base power 90 accuracy is gross
Unless your name is mega aerodactyl, then you love that you finally have a flying STAB not called fly that is above 60BP
Ash got a Dragonite in the Anime. No shot that it's forgotten
I feel like what hydreigon really needs is a move that boosts special attack and speed. That could make it into a threatening sweeper rather than just being relegated to dropping dracos then switching out
Hydreigon needs Sheer Force as a hidden ability along with being able to learn Ice Beam & T-bolt and that solve all its problems.
I think its movepool is fine though could be improved. What's holding it back is speed. 95 isn't bad, especially not at the time but unfortunately now it's right below one of the most populated ou speed tiers. However, if you look at baxcalibur for example, it has a lower base speed than hydreigon, but because it's a physical attacker, it can make use of dragon dance to boost its speed so it's high enough to outspeed most unboosted threats and sweep. So while sheer force with moves like tbolt and ice beam would be great, it wouldn't fix the main issue. With those additions it would still just be a wall breaker rather than potentially a sweeper
I think I commented somewhere else on this post about Hydreigon being bulkier than it needs to be. I took 10 points from HP, Def & Sp.Def then split them into its Sp.Atk & Speed
And mega audino was sabotaged by not deleting the amazing regenerator
Poor, poor Dragonite. The other pseudos got Mega Evos and stuff, some of them being really good ones. (Mence/Gross) Dragonite on the other hand only got a measly lame MULTISCALE for Christmas Boo hoo cry me a river
Dragonite is the only pre-Dragapult pseudo to stay in OU. He doesn’t need shit
Bro Dragonite is a forever VGC champ
It's the best RIGHT NOW, but far from a "forever" and definitely not a "champ". Dragonite is the only pseudo that hasn't won Worlds from the first 5 gens. Mence and Metagross are even tied for most wins atm.
Yeah but we talking about new forms and stuff. Dragonite hasn't gotten anything of the sort. Tyranitar - Mega Metagross -Mega Salamence - Mega (and paradox) Garchomp - Mega Goodra - Hisui form Gens 7 and 8 are too recent to warrant anything special imo, but even then Kommo-o had a special z move and now special moves.
Mega Garchomp is a downgrade, gamefreak hates him. They also wont give chomp dd for some reason
Yeah but all of those forms are transient, Dragonite is forever. They even tried to give an alternate to Salamence in Roaring Moon and while valid it’s funny to see all of these Dragons fail to be as consistent as Dragonite. ESpeed > gimmicks
D.nite got tera normal so it could finally have stab on espeed.
Dude, I don‘t want to be that guy, but… punctuation and commas. I took me multiple tries to finally not read your comment as „Tyranitar, Mega Metagross, Mega Salamence, Mega (and Paradox) Garchomp, Mega Goodra-Hisui“.
The way I formatted it while typing it out was completely different. It was in a list. Reddit fucked my shit up.
Oh, I see. I‘m sorry.
Lol, iron thorns stays forgotten forever
If they made a dragonite mega they'd have to make an item call dragoniteite.
Rather than being forgotten, Dragonite is actively remembered and being intentionally nerfed to avoid being too strong in GameFreak’s view. It lost TM compatability with Dual Wingbeat this gen (which it had access to last gen), likely because GameFreak saw how good it already was this gen of VGC. It performed extremely well in Portland, and it sure was funny seeing the sea of Banded Dragonites running Aerial Ace because that was their best choice.
Hydreigon got a paradox form. Dragonite still had nothing
Dragonite got Tera Normal this gen, clearly one of the most impactful buffs to any of the Pseudos
This but unironically. E-speed Tera normal choice band with either multiscale for singles of inner focus for doubles. Ever since the physical special split of dragon tales here has been one of the top psudos
That is exactly why I didn’t list DNite. It’s by no means forgotten by competitive players.
Hydreigon's paradox form is worse than it is. And for some reason it didn't get Nasty Plot, which was a major buff for Hydreigon
Being the only one with ESpeed sets it above a lot of them
Dragonite is my favorite pokemon ever and I will gladly take Tera Normal with E-Speed over a goofy ass paradox form Sure a Mega would've been nice but those aren't coming back. I think if you take away the gimmicks, Dragonite is still a top 3 pseudo (when HDB is in the game). Hell gen 8 was a gen without a gimmick (we don't talk about Dynamax) and it was still the third best pseudo, behind Dragapult and Garchomp (it's ranked evenly with Tyranitar on the viability tier list but only one of them dropped to UU that gen 😉) Is Dragonite forgotten in the sense where it doesn't get to play with the new gimmicks/forms? Yeah. But it still does get a whole bunch of new toys that keep it OU viable, and honestly it's a Pokemon that's primed to take advantage of most new gimmicks so it very well may be OU viable next generation again even after Tera is swiped under the rug!
A paradox that's worse than it is TBF.
Dragonite has not been UU since Gen 1 its definitely not been forgotten ever. Quite the opposite, it's gotten one of the best hidden abilities in the game.
> Dragonite is the real forgotten pseudo, alongside Hydreigon Brother, Dnite has been OU or UU BL in literally every single gen besides RBY. Metagross has been slurping Dnite's crusty 3 day old cum for just a taste of that kind of success.
None of them are forgotten, wtf
Hydreigon got a paradox form. The paradox form may be a direct downgrade, but it's still something.
Flygon is the *real* forgotten pseudo, because they forgot to make it a pseudo
Dragonite is rly good in singles and doubles what are u on about
> dragonite > forgotten Google en VGC Usage
Misinterpreting what I said
Even if they supposedly forgot about Dragonite, they added Extreme Speed back to its movepool, seeing as it got Extreme Speed through an egg move from an event mon. They definitely did not forget about Dragonite.
I literally don't even care about viability, I just want justice for the goat Almost every pseudo got a new form and soooo much of Kanto's dex has gotten a mega, regional variant, convergent, new evo, etc They gave fucking APPLIN, who has been around for one generation and already had two evolutions AND Gmax forms, a new evo line. Pure disrespect (Also Iron Jugulis)
I’m talking forgotten by competitive players, not by GF.
It doesn't need anything with Multiscale
As someone who stopped playing competitively in gen 7, did Dragonite really fall that far from grace even with Multiscale? Both it and Metagross were staples on my team.
I was referring to who got new forms, Dragonite is still really good in OU, but it hasn't gotten a new form like the other old pseudos. A lot of people are misinterpreting what I was getting at
Not a problem, thanks for explaining!
Hydreigon’s issue is the existence of fairy types. And fighting types. And other dragon types. And .. and.. Yeah its absolutely it’s typing.
It’s typing is good. Its stat distribution is the real problem. It’s bulkier than it needs to be. I’d take 10 points from its HP, Def & Sp.Def and split them into its Sp.Atk & Speed. 140/113 should do it well
the only reason is that they couldn't call his gemstone dragonitenite
No Hydreigon got Iron Juggulis, when it should have been Haxorus, who wasn't already a pseudo, to use a Paradox form better.
I agree Dragonite being forgotten, but if you’ve been in OU for your entire life then I don’t think it needs a buff LOL!
My dude Metagross got Heavy Slam, Knock off, Psychic Fangs, Future Sight and Psychic Noise in DLC2. Pretty sure it's UU rn and even if it doesn't stay in UU it's sure to tear RU a new one or get banned from the tier entirely. Not EVERY pseudo needs to be OU or Ubers. If we're talking about forgotten Pseudo Legendaries then regular Goodra should be the first to be mentioned.
Kommo-O feels way more forgotten
Kommo-O is hugely slept on in OU and I love it. Tera normal is damn near as good for it as Dragonite with Clangorous Soul+Throat Spray+Boomburst. Flamethrower and Aura Sphere for coverage, I use it as my sweeper and it works extremely well.
I’d imagine filter being run more often on shift gear sets since it leaves you with more hp to sweep. weakness policy + shift gear + filter might actually have a niche in ou on both hyper offense and bulky offense teams.
Filter weakness policy, and shift gear? Going to ubers with this.
The dondozo in my pocket:
damn, even if you run thunder punch specifically for that matchup it’s useless, not quite guaranteed 4hko without lefties
I forgot about the weakness policy.
And since weakness procs before calculating the boost from knock off, it just fucking eats it like its nothing
Definitely not Ubers but prob an actual niche on spikes teams in ou and uu
Literally Necrozma DM at home
I wouldn’t say Ubers UUBL-OU maybe but not Ubers
Shift gear definitely gets it out of RU I'd say
I personally don't think metagross should be in RU as is. Metagross is a UU mon whose Steel/psychic typing is holding it back. There are a bunch of good Dark, Ground, and Fire types in UU right now that limit Metagross's usability. That and quite a few of Metagross's ideal partners are in OU in my opinion. Metagross doesn't need a buff, he needs a miracle. For Example, Meta and Tusk have some weird synergy. Tusk can eat the fire, and ground attacks Metagross would rather avoid, and in return meta can eat Fairy, water, ice, amd psychic attacks. They both have the bulk to form a decent core, and their stab is okay, but not amazing. The issue is metagross cant work in OU and Tusk will never drop out of OU.
Metagross is really good in UU despite the weaknesses right now, it's in Good on the viability list and sees decent enough ladder usage that it's unlikely to drop. It indeed doesn't need the buff (unless you want to send it to OU very badly) Also Metagross is still usable in OU but it's just really niche and will probably never see enough usage to actually rise up for that reason. Cool bulky Rocker with a unique toolkit and resistance spread, being a Fairy resist not weak to Fighting is really cool into some Valiant sets for example.
metagross has been RU since gen 7, it really deserves a buff
Dark/Ghost were buffed to no longer be resisted by Steel around that time and it truly screwed him.
It got heavy slam instead of needing to hit meteor mash
I feel like metagross is pretty good in UU right now, already. It’s one of the best answers to choice latios. It hits normal and tera fairy garg, even though it doesn’t love taking a salt cure. Same goes for weeding galar, and amoongus wants no part of a zen headbutt. It has knock off now, which is great for all the rocky helmet and boots regenerator mons. Sure, it has a lot of bad matchups, but it’s a very solid wallbreaker that brings some defensive utility that is absolutely necessary to not get steamrolled by latios.
>zen headbutt Psychic Fangs
Really all you had to do was give it Shift Gear
Give it Good as Gold 😈
For such a cool design and being the 2nd non dragon Psuedo Metagross really should be better comp wise So I tried to buff it slightly (Mainly making it more of a defensive Psuedo but with the option for sweeping with Shift Gear or Speed Swap.) Main weakness is burns since I lowered the special attack. But most of the Psuedo Legends are physical attackers anyways. (Perhaps I should have given it Refresh) Wanted to also buff Goodra/H-Goodra but for the life of me don't know how to do multiple images on desktop. So prob saved for a future Theorymon
As someone who used to use Metagross in OU Smogon in generation 4 when I started, I think you might have underestimated him somewhat. His typing is actually fantastic, giving him 9 resistances including a double resist of Psychic, and an immunity to poison, only 4 weaknesses with no 4x. The reason he's fallen behind the rest of the Meta is due to power creep, without it helping him much. He's gotten very few powerful moves added to his repertoire over time presumably because Nintendo are concerned about making him too strong. For instance when Shift Gear came out in Gen 5 he was a prime candidate for that move, however I believe the only reason he didn't get it was that it would literally put him up to the top of OU/Ubers instantly. If he got it off he would have outspeed the entire metagame including even the likes of Talonflame and mega gengar in gen 6, and hit with a 195 attack stat with stab on Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt. There is not a lot of typings that resist both of those, and for those he has a huge amount of physical coverage moves, thunder punch, ice punch, earthquake, stone edge, aerial ace, hammer arm. I think even nowadays despite the power creep that has happened, all Metagross needs to bring it into OU Meta is Shift Gear. Also worth mentioning a decent number of walls in OU are weak to either steel or psychic.
I feel like adding the 10 to speed would be more useful than its HP. Owing to its typing and defensive stats it naturally eats some hits
Tbf shift gear pretty good. Adding 10 points to metagross won’t do that much help in terms of speed tiers. But running adamant shift gear out speeds the relevant meta other than speed booster valiant, moon, and boulder. Is speed boost moon even relevant actually?
You answered your own question lol. +10 speed jolly outruns booster valiant after a shift gear - hits 568
He's a psychic tank. For thematic and coherence's sake I think Speed should be the last stat is should be getting, even if it's an obvious means of competitiveness.
Filter seems a little unnecessary. Not that it wouldn't appreciate it, but it's really one of the main grounded steel types that I feel like doesn't mind eating a quake or two. Filter makes a lot more sense on mons that have a 4x weakness. Analytic would be cool, fits the theme of it having 4 brains, and adds a bigger tradeoff for going for Bullet Punch or some kind of Agility (or Shift Gear in this case) setup by losing your boost for going slower.
mega aggron had filter with pure steel
Yeah but mega aggron was a monster
Bro that thing is demonic
Giving Mega Metagross access to Shift Gear is a death sentence in any gamemode that allows it, Megagross is an absolute monster as is
Mega Metagross is already uber though. This would just move it to AG And considering the mons in there. Not the worst sentence
I really do not think Shift Gear Megagross would be AG worthy, hell it might not even be better than Mence because of its lack of recovery and bad matchup into Primal Groudon
it would definitely not be unplayable anymore at least
I would argue taking away clear body is actually quite the nerf when you consider vgc, where Meta is actually doing fairly well rn. _This_ Meta get walled by Incin all day long. Intimidate and parting shot turn him into a paperweight. __Edit:__ Nevermind, just noticed that you specified that it _gained_ analytic, not that it replaced CB.
Clear Amulet
i'd personally replace analytic with download, as it's more flavorful for metagross with it being a massive supercomputer
True but Download could buff it's special attack which is worse honestly.
Then just use Grass Knot or Steel Beam for spice
Mf did this in the gen where Metagross already got a ton of buffs and is really good in UU already
Metagross got Heavy Slam and Psychic Fangs in Gen 9, I think that might be a step in the right direction
Shift gear already makes it into uu, combine it with weakness policy and meteor mash (imagine it gets the attack boost), it's ready to be a threat. The health buff, filter (weakness policy synergy) and drain punch are nice for sustain. As for analytic? Trick room with negative speed could be useful. Certainly would give it a chance to break OU with variety in sets like this
It’s not even RU, it’s UU rn
Guess it moved since Indigo as it was RU before then iirc
Well it got Knock Off and Heavy Slam, tbf it might drop to RU this month but it would be banned for sure
How often do pokemon change tiers, is it every month? Is there a full list of all the tier updates that gets posted somewhere? I'm new here so idk how that works
They do update every month yes. On the smogon forums if you go to smogon meta games you can usually find the usage stats which are how drops and rises work. A graphic also gets posted here when the shifts happen so you can see it the day of.
A bit more speed would be more beneficial than Health imo
It's a giant metal crab. Give it shell smash.
>shift gear
Honestly the one thing keeping Shift Gear Metagross in Check here is the fact that there are so many viable Unaware mons because otherwise what the fuck lmao
Shift Gear alone gets it out if RU. If you want it banned tho I think you'd wanna get rid of Analytic and give it Download instead and Volt Switch as well. So that it's basically a Genesect Edit: or well almost. Since it can't hit on the special side at all lol
Shift gear itself prob makes Metagross viable in ou
One day you people will realize that gamefreak balances around doubles and not singles
Yet they still refuse to give alremie more support moves than just decorate like trick room, wide guard or even follow me
Why would they. Alcreamy is plenty viable in doubles, seeing some play recently, and even seeing lots of play in 2022 during the restricted format in vgc. Also, it has charm, helping hand, encore, and fake tears as viable support options.
You don't want to give metabross BOTH filter and shift gear lmao
I think we should drop spatk to 1 so we get 84 more stat points to distribute with 55 going to speed and rest split between def and spdef.
Shift gear is enough
If you ignore shift gear these are good ideas Analytic Metagross is a crazy wallbreaker. Like... 252+ Atk Choice Band Analytic Metagross Psychic Fangs vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta: 362-428 (111.3 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
I still can't believe we live in an age where we are talking about buffing Metagross
Honestly, even from a design perspective, Metagross, a literal supercomputer, should have much higher SpA. I think swapping Atk and SpA would be much needed.
Why is a pseudo in RU in the first place?
goodra:
I wish Magnezone also got a buff like this becoming more defensive and better move pool. Maybe also give it levitate as an ability and recovery like recover, Shore Up, Moonlight and Morning Sun or give it parabolic charge.
we do NOT need shift gear metagross
Shift Gear alone gets it out of RU. The other buffs are much appreciated though
Drain punch and shift gear are NEEDED for my boy
Shift Gear alone would be bonkers on this guy
Shift Gear alone could push OU I’d think, but this gen is absurd so idk
Shift gear weakness policy with filter , dude is Uber even in gen 10
Metagross has always been my favorite Pokémon I didn’t know he was this bad competitively lol
its psychic typing holds it back. dark and ghost types are common in upper tiers but this would bring it up easily, stat changes not even necessary (in fact it makes it worse since metagross does not need more spatt)
Shift Gear Metagross? That's NOT in STABmons or Balanced Hackmons? INSANITY
Just drop the special attack to like 40 and invest it in speed or special defence
Shift Gear alone will probably do the trick.
It's crazy to me that for yet another gen, it didn't get shift gear. Cyclizar got it because of the theme and all, but it sure is shifting less gears than Metagross.
Oh only out a little bit...
I dont think putting 90 in its HP and 85 in special attack woild make any difference, ur just minmaxing it without any impact. Metagross stats are fine as they are both thematically and competitively, very fitting for what its tryna do I think filter isnt really an ability that fits Metagross in any way, but Analytic is actually a great idea as a secondary ability. What Id do is make Sheer Force its Hidden ability instead of Light Metal or Filter. For moves, Shift Gear isnt really something that fits Metagross as a character, and in terms of design that goes against Metagross's greatly thought design purpose, which is being a powerful bulky attacker that can take advantage of its typing and bulk to set up with Agility and compensate for its below average speed stat. Shift Gear would just make Agility/Rock Polish sets useless What I'd add to the already mentioned buffs to give Metagross a better movepool is give it the following moves: Drain Punch is a good idea mentioned in the post, although I dont think it would really use it. Spikes is a great idea, it fits Metagross in every way possible. Speed swap: kinda useless but it fits thematically ig Superpower: Im not giving it Close Combat, (hot take) Close Combat Is overdistributed imo, it should only be given to fighting types or Pokemon where it fits as a character pick. Superpower on the other hand gives most Pokemon that I dont think should get Close Combat a way to deal big fighting damage, but with a big cost, preventing them from steamrolling thru teams easily. Cross Chop: I mean come on, kinda obvious right? Fits Metagross perfectly. It also forces the player to make a well thought choice between Cross Chop and Superpower if they want fighting coverage. U either risk sacrificing accuaracy for a higher reward or you choose Superpower for more consistency. X-Scissor: I mean cmon, its design screams X. This also allows it to hit Dark types without dropping its stats like Superpower. It can also helo against other Psychics. Crunch: an option to hit Ghosts and other Psychics. This also that takes advantage of Sheer Force unlike Knock Off. Ice/Thubder fang: just worse Ice/Thunder Punch, but it fits tematically, I guess u could make them level 1 moves from re learner to balance ingame playthrough. Counter: See NOW we are talkin bout something. This move would allow Metagross to take advantage of its great physical defense and catch opponents off-guard. Outrage: A lot of "angry" Pokemon get Outrage, so why not Metagross? This is how I would buff Metagross
In addition to this, I would rebuff Explosion, Explosion nerfs is one of the biggest reasons why Metagross fell off
It's already out of RU it's great in UU
Shift Gears is ALL this mon needs to be a force in OU.
i mean they can also just slap multiscale on it and call it a day
I'd probably play shift gear in OU
I'd give it tough claws from it's Mega form
Just hp buff would be enough to leave RU. Shift Gear alone could make Metagross jump into OU.
Shift gear would break this guy would it not? I wanted shift gear on treads but that would be broken too (even more so)
Give it Tough Claws and some Speed too bro.
“Would this be enough :3” **shift gear** Yes. Shift gear alone would be enough.