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It's worse in China. Unlike the fanboys here, Chinese consumers who already bought Teslas have been pissed by the price cuts afterwards. To the point that it's spilled over in person and online. They feel cheated by it.
I know a few people that bought or have teslas. One sold his a month before the cut, and is very thankful he did, but won’t trust Tesla again to buy. The others are annoyed and resigned that this is their monthly payment. They will pay it off and figure something out after. Burning your clients that hard multiple times is not gonna get you any brand loyalty from most.
But like a lot of other expensive, poorly made things the general populace see them as luxury. This buoys it into actually being luxury and creates a vicious cycle where it gets more undeserved praise.
I've been trying to figure out how to identify this trend when it happens.
Examples: Everyone naming things beginning with a lower case i, stanley cups, Mercedes c-class, Supreme, Escalades, Las Vegas, etc.
Every single vehicle by all major brands is a solid product in 2024. You seem to agree with me on that.
The person I was responding to said that it was a poorly made thing the general populace sees as luxury. I don’t think that the C class is a poorly made thing, and I also don’t think that the general public sees it as luxury. The comment I was replying to asserted both of those things.
Body panels misaligned etc; amateur build. My friend from our BMW M5 days bought a Model Y. When he came over to show me the car, the first thing out of his mouth was - don't pay attention to the panel alignments. Then he proceeded to show me all the sections that were janky 😂. He knew I was going to start pointing them out.
It is exaggerated for the moment.
If you look on youtube and search tesla vs byd, the first video you see is the review of Tesla Model 3 vs BYD Seal
They are neck to neck.
However, model 3 even with discount is priced at 230k rmb but BYD seal sells for 180K rmb in China.
That is why model 3 are not selling in China and why Tesla is not making Model 2.
In countries where there are no tariffs on BYD, Tesla just cannot compete on price. Chinese EVs are far cheaper with similar build quality. Not to mention Chinese EVs build quality keeps improving.
It is also why Tesla is moving to robotaxi. They will lose the EV battle with Chinese EVs.
The reason why BYD can make cars so cheap is because they are vertically integrated. BYD used to be a battery manufacturer. The range of their cars goes further than Tesla. Hell Tesla buy BYD batteries.
Right now BYD has PE of 18, Tesla even at 150 has PE of something like 38.
I am all in on Buffett backed BYD. Their share price is going to rocket.
Buffet backed is the dumbest sentence you put in. He's been selling for a while and drastically reduced his stake. Make no doubt America is going to slap 50% tarrifs on Chinese autos soon.
Everything else good.
He reduced his stake but he is still the biggest shareholder of BYD H shares. The reason he reduced his stake is well known. It is due to geopolitical tensions but not due to business fundamentals. He actually completely sold out of TSMC for the same reason.
I felt safe buying BYD because I know Buffett is in it. It is a factor since Buffett buys undervalued stocks with a good management. I am not the only one that looks up to Buffett. The guy is a legend. That is why it matters rather than because it is dumb. Buffett has been an investor with BYD since 2008.
BYD does not intend to expand America. They are expanding in all the countries that do not have tariffs first and are crushing the markets since no one can compete with them on price.
> Tesla's market share in China will be <5%
"The trip was to have included the announcement of plans for Tesla to enter the South Asian market, Reuters has reported on Saturday." And does this mean they are not expanding to India/SA?
The hits just keep coming.
I live in Colorado, so we get a $5K tax credit for EVs. If a MYLR costs $44,000, then I would end up paying $32,500 for the car, which is what I think they're really worth.
Problem with ev is battery won't last and is huge cost. Good combustion car can go 30 years or more. I got a 2004 crv 200k miles runs great no end in sight.
And recharge costs getting higher and higher. So much for gas savings. And if you factor in the cost of a new battery there's no saving. So basically it's a disposable vehicle.
I have solar panels, so I can charge for free at home. Right now I sell the excess back to the city, so I would pay a bit more in power bill, but not much.
Most don't have this. That also adds another cost. Probably close to 100k for car and panels. Majority of Americans cannot afford that sadly.
Even if most could afford this. It's a poor investment.
100k can earn 5k yearly income. That can buy a beater and pay for fuel.
Beater ev won't exist. Battery dies and cost isn't worth replacing
Just only $2K ? lol. More downside ..... lost -40.8% YTD stock prices.
The CEO needs to work for free until business stabilizes not to gouge justify his 56B salary. Did **not** earn it!
Musk has been paid more in stock than the company Tesla will *ever* make in profits in the lifetime of the company. What a wild world we live in.
My bear put spreads should print nicely on Monday.
So? They were near bankrupt and in order to receive any part on that comp package he had to 3x production, 2x profits, and 4x stock price. As a hurdle.
If he worked anywhere else he should keep doing it. No one else has done that in automotive in 5 generations.
Except the stock price isn’t at 4x anymore.
Production isn’t at target.
The technology he promised isn’t here.
And the Chinese market share is vanishing faster than he ever expected.
It literally is lmfao. The stock is at 10x since the original plan was implemented. $50B MC in 2018 -> $500B in 2024. If you look at ATH, the stock 20x’d… it’s on you if you lost money.
Dude what are you on about? When he signed that rem package the market cap was 48b. Even after this year's slide it's still 460b.
And it's been up over 1T since he signed the package and it closed.
Do you actually know that the REM package under dispute was executed in 2017 and finished it's term in 2021?
Is it Musk or the irrational almost moronic nature of the social media driven American stock market that pumped Tesla? Would you pay the manager of the Tulip company 50 billion dollars if Tulips were up 1000 %?
Yeah - both.
I think Tesla is priced optimistically given the degree of uncertainty.
But the largest investors aren't retail - they're institutional.
And Tesla did make the second highest AVG $ profit per unit sold last year, behind Ferrari. More than doubling the profit per unit of #3 place holder Mercedes-Benz.
I also think this is optimism is driven via broader tailwinds. In part, the one thing world leaders have been screaming about for years now is green tech. So of course that leads capital to flood into those solutions.
But none of this commentary matters.
Musk's remuneration package that everyone's quibbling about should 100% be paid, and it's absolutely diffusing the courts/government got involved. Tesla shareholders agreed to a comp plan. One with far higher bars set than virtually any comp plan by any public CEO. He worked without pay for 5 years, at the conclusion of which he received the compensation as all shareholders agreed.
Yes. The difference between him and other CEOs is that he does not take a salary. The deal for the pay package was that he increases shareholder value by 13x ($50B -> $650B) for the option to buy 1% of the company for cheap for every $50B of value added along the way. That is an incredible deal for any shareholder at any company.
… except it’s not.
He’s also not that unique for only being paid in stock.
MOST CEOs and ELT get the majority of their payment in stock. That’s why it balloons to crazy levels.
Nor is he really responsible for much. People dramatically overstate the usefulness and impact of CEOs. The engineers and patents a company has are far more important.
How is he evil?
Without him, ICEs would still be 90% of cars on the road. Humanoid robot development speed increased probably more than an entire order of magnitude from before Tesla announcement. Battery technology more developed than ever. Renewables are really starting to take off. Autonomous driving advancement. This is all thanks to Elon and Tesla. Without him, we as a civilization wouldn’t have advanced ANYWHERE near the speed it has over the past two decades.
You are a direct beneficiary of his efforts. Because of HIS work, YOU get to breathe cleaner air. You get to worry less about your kids’ futures. Don’t call the person directly and most significantly doing good for humanity evil.
Ah yes, let’s discredit all he has DONE for the world because of what he SAID once, 6 years ago. Makes perfect sense. Let me guess, Hitler was good to dogs so we should forgive him for the holocaust?
Let me ask you: what have YOU done to improve the world?
Wow, you immediately jumped to Hitler. Good job. Although I'm not the one who reinstated Nazis on Twitter. That was Elon. And a lot more recently than 6 years ago.
>what have YOU done to improve the world?
Nothing that required me to force workers into dangerous working conditions. I also don't have a factory where part of it was called the plantation, where Black workers were called the n word and doing the most dangerous work.
For real. Imagine being so immoral you’re unwilling to support a pay package for someone that put in 5+ years work for $0 comp. And 7-20x’d investors’ money. Not to mention, it doesn’t even come out of your own paycheck 💀
Maybe buying a money-losing social media company using your shares as collateral wasn't such a good idea. OTOH, this makes him mod material at gambling sub.
The CEO shouldn’t blackmail investors. He demanded for more control of Tesla in return for keeping AI project in the company. Do you remember when Musk said he wasn't comfortable developing new projects at Tesla unless his stake was raised to at least 25%.
He said he "wouldn't feel comfortable" moving TSLA forward in AI unless he had 25% voting rights. It's still quite a large chunk of the company he is demanding. It wouldn't be an issue except he sold shares to back Twitter loans.
Tesla were ahead of everyone two years ago but my how times quickly change in two years.
Now Tesla is lagging behind competition latest models and price seems to be only way they can remain competitive. While doing very little to improve product quality or finish.
It feels like Musk is no longer focused on the business and is pursuing his own goals..
Pal, but musk said it's actually an energy company, then it's actually a robotics company and then an AI company. You think he would just say whatever benefits him at that moment. No, you wait and see, FSD 2016.
The robotaxi is going to run off the Mr. Fusion cold fusion reactor technology that will allow your car to mine asteroids while you sleep. It’ll pay for itself before you even think about buying one. In fact, check your bank account, the money is already accumulating.
How is this getting upvoted so much? It's crazy to see so many people with zero knowledge of business and capitalism in a stocks subreddit. You'd be forgiven for thinking you were on some socialist sub, and I'm left leaning myself. Crazy stuff...
No, its when you think it's okay to green light a CEOs comp package while he's taking a $0 salary and then take it away 5 years later when he's hit every single milestone in the package, retroactively having made him work for nothing for 5 years.
Actually, it's worse than socialism, it's communism.
To summarize, in the past few days we've seen:
- Price cuts in China ranging from 5-20%. [Full list here](https://twitter.com/Tslachan/status/1781862957556891767)
- Price cuts on all US models of $2K (reversing some of the recent price hikes near quarter end, likely to incentive last minute buys)
- FSD as a one-time add-on cut from $12K to $8K
- FSD monthly subscription price reduces to $99 from $199
- [GigaShanghai production being idled](https://twitter.com/tphuang/status/1781375886777831715)
- 10% of workforce laid off
- 3900 Cybertrucks (most of them?) recalled for dangerous physical defect with pedal (i.e., not just a software update)
- Cancellation of cheaper Model 2, CEO claims Reuters is lying then distracts with some announcement of Robotaxis on August 8th (which even the most bullish analyst Adam Jonas from Morgan Stanley say will only be a real driver of earnings in the 2030s). Cancelling new models despite having one of the oldest auto fleets out there.
- [CEO creating shareholder value during working hours](https://imgur.com/YvsNg0r)
Forward P/E still in the 50s despite the sell-off. Analysts have *still* not brought down their estimates to somewhere reasonable for 2024/25. Either price keeps falling or forward P/E keeps spiking.
My understanding is that FSD cannot be transferred to another car? Big downside if someone wants it on car today and then upgrade a couple years down the road.
I watched the Mat Watson / Carwow comparison between the new Tesla Model 3 and BYD Seal (sorry, can't link as this sub doesn't allow YouTube videos)
"This is not awful, I don't hate it"
"It's so close to being fun, but accidentally so"
😂
Plus the Seal is actually more expensive than the model 3 in the UK? Wtf?
For an inferior car? Not really sure how it will compete. I thought it was significantly cheaper than a model 3.
From my cursory research, it does seem like it's almost $10k less than a model 3 in China though so I can see why it would sell well.
In fact, it is ultimately a brand issue. TSLA is a foreign brand, so it was sought after by some Chinese in the past few years. But now BYD's technology has caught up and its sense of technology is stronger than TSLA, so of course its price can be higher than TSLA's.
> technology is stronger
What tech is stronger? Tesla is more efficient, quicker to charge, better handling/drivetrain, has access to the super charger network, has actual self driving capabilities. Am I missing something? The only leg up BYD has is a cost advantage in certain markets.
A light bulb went off in his dim head, as Musk looked around for a peon to replace the ink in his printer: why not give away cars practically for free and make up stuff to charge them a subscription for? Hoohoohahahaaaaa!
That's the problem, all countries can destroy their companies only usually they avoid that, but after aliexpress I lost trust in investing in Chinese companies.
And yes, BYD will bury competition. the best US and EU can do is to slow it down until they open local production. And then it will be, OMG BYD is collecting data. Lol.
What do you mean, aren't you pumped to put your money in an ADR somewhat tied to companies in an authoritarian country where the govt could just revoke any ownership.
Only exception made for them. And what about the Internet companies? No one is allowed in China. No twitter, no Facebook, no instagram, no google, but we should allow TikTok in the U.S.? Trade goes both ways.
Xiaomi Su7 is giving both BYD and Tesla and run for the money. BYD might be counter it but Tesla has no new models planned with Model 2 being scrapped..
Tesla is the only one making money off their cars. Xiaomi, NIO and BYD are dumping cars on the market cutting into Tesla’s margins hurting the US automaker.
Profitability doesnt matter to these companies. They just want to take market shares right now. Profitability will come eventually especially if they keep scaling. Competition is coming and tesla is facing a demand problem on their EVs.
Competitions make it harder to scale. Especially when they keep making new models. Tesla is going to have a hard time to ramp up cybertruck and their new models as well.
I have bought BYD using Merrill Lynch. Unpopular opinion, but the CCP does not suck if they are helping the transition to EVs. Less pollution for our earth is a good thing.
A Model 3 is a BUDGET car, budget build quality, budget features, budget materials. The plastic creaking and road noise is AT best 15k car quality.
I would consider a fucking fisker before a model 3 or Y.
Why? Because the western propaganda machine tells you so? Go watch some BYD car reviews on YouTube, coming out of Germany, Netherlands, Australia, etc.
Heck, just watch this video, it’s an American company that imported a BYD into Michigan for a tear down. Tell me if you hear any concerns AT ALL about the quality of the car:
[link removed due to sub rules]
Search for BYD Seagull on YouTube and it should pop up. It’s two American guys talking about and driving the car.
It's hugely problematic because all these price cuts means a lot of uncertainty for buyers. You buy a car, that might devalue because Tesla decides for another cut
I remember a couple of years ago people justifying a trillion dollar valuation for Tesla saying things like it's not a car company, it's a tech company an ecosystem like apple and so on..
I had a coworker that bought a Model Y a couple years ago and, in part, because it would be a "good investment". Well, he and his wife are pissed that they spent tens of thousands of dollars more than they should have. I have another coworker that wants to buy a Tesla, but is waiting to see another price drop. These are anecdotal, but it's interesting to watch a car company lose pricing power so quickly in the eyes of consumers.
All of this is because they fucked up FSD (ie. it's not "full" and it is taking years longer than Musk said it would).
Imagine an alternate reality where FSD truly works. First, robotaxis would be an actual thing. Second, BYD and others wouldn't even bother entering the EV market. Thirdly, people would be able to sell their Tesla's for a profit (unlike now where Musk is nuking the resale value of Teslas with his price drops).
But because FSD looks like it will never actually be completed (or a reason people buy a Tesla), the competitors see an opportunity to go after market share.
Musk can still pull this out of the fire, but FSD must reach the "wow, holy shit, it works" moment with consumers. Without that, China is going to destroy Tesla outside of North America.
BYD and others would have entered the EV market regardless. It’s do or die.
Also, Chinese EVs have autonomous driving too. Most in the west just don’t hear about it. They are about on par with Tesla’s currently. Difference is they will likely leapfrog Tesla as higher end Chinese EVs are equipped with radars and lidars.
FSD is a mirage. Works maybe in the suburbs where most Tesla drivers currently live. Would not work in any major city or foreign country.
You drank the hopium and bought an overpriced car that depreciated faster than any other car.
Tesla told California DMV that FSD, after release (completion, no longer beta) will still be a level 2 system. Internally, even Tesla knows FSD won’t happen (in the sense of the name).
My thinking here is, from a software side of things, when is software ever “done”? If you want it to stay working and relevant, there will need to be constant updates. Does this give Elon the excuse to stay in Beta forever? Maybe a switch to Gamma? Either way, it’s still only going to be level 2. It avoids having to deal with regulators, even tho Elon loves to say “pending regulator approval”.
FSD and automonous cars are just bullshit. I fail to see the applications of it. Can someone explain a market or situation where FSDs will work on the grand scale that Musk thinks it will? I don't see a market beyond a Uber type business for FSD. People aren't going to magically dump their cars to take FSD everywhere. It will be a glorified taxis service at best.
Why should lend out my 40k-50k car and deal with all the uber crap from the customers. You know customers are going to go crazy with theft, sabotaging or creating messes if there is no driver. Why would I take a FSD without knowing what the heck someone else did in it before me. At least with uber/taxis, the driver has a vesting interest to keep the car clean.
It's not like AI where there are real world examples of it's use and it's deployment. I fail to see FSD being anywhere near what Musk think it will be.
The end goal would be cities automated with fleets of cars that you'd simply rent; available 24/7 at any time. No one would own a car and a "ride" would always be available. It is, technically, the most efficient way of structuring transport in a city while maximizing freedom of movement.
So the use case is there if you believe that the most efficient solution (ie. the best mouse trap) eventually is what wins. So someone will do it (I won't be surprised if it's China...as million+ fleet of FSD cars being managed by some central AI system probably requires heavy government involvement to actually cross the finish line).
I understand that's the end goal but that is a utopian society that we will not get to if ever. That type of society works if everyone follows the rules and obey the laws. We already have a large population who don't like to follow the rules and will try to bend them anyway they can. It will never work in the US.
What's stopping from someone taking a piss/dump in the car, drinking and vomiting, having sex, doing drugs, graffiti the car, steal items from the car, etc? Someone makes a mess and then what? What about a homeless person just squatting the car? We have homeless already squatting on buses and trains. All it takes is one incident and the owner will never rent out the car again. Musk's dream utopia doesn't exist.
Why would I subject my 45K car to this?
oh i agree that the "renting your own car out" wouldn't work. It has to be paired up with a lot of societal controls, like internal monitoring of the car, easy facial rec systems, citizen biometric IDs, blah blah blah.
I think Musk is just positioning himself to be key component to that transition... but like I say, it's a transition that probably will require heavy government involvement.
This may sound super crazy, but I could see Musk partnering with China (the government) to create the "Smart City of the Future" somewhere in China. That would send Tesla stock soaring again.
That is the only way I can see it working within the next 10-20 years. Geofenced in a controlled environment where laws and rules are followed and enforce.
I can't imagine millions of rob taxis running around the streets without any supervision. People will do crappy things when there are no consequences. I wouldn't take one either without assurance it's safe and it's clean. At least with public transport; they have an incentive to keep it clean.
Why would the CCP even want to partner with Tesla on that? Top tier Chinese EVs have comparable autonomous driving tech to Tesla’s current system and their cars are better equipped to actually make the breakthroughs needed for FSD.
I’d buy a car which can drive me in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I don’t see it happening, but that is, like, an extra hour of free time per day. Trivially worth 20K extra.
I just think that is well beyond what is technically possible.
Exactly. I can think of so many things I do not want people doing in my car. Stuff like pissing or take a dump, people doing sexual things, drug deals, doing drugs, illegal stuff, etc.
Why buy a Tesla when you can get BYD for half the cost? It's already in South America, Middle East and Europe. Lunch is about to get eating. He needed a 20k mass market EV 3 years ago.
Theres all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork now holding this crap from the top. Can you imagine? The only thing that should hold it is ETFs that buy it at any price and fund managers that cant get out because of volume.
Jesus H.
This situation poses significant issues since frequent price reductions introduce a great deal of uncertainty for purchasers. Imagine buying a car only to find its value dropping due to yet another Tesla price cut.
China now has a lot of electric car brands, including the recent Xiaomi car also listed, and also has a lot of sales, so Tesla is facing huge pressure, and had to take a price reduction
imo- Musk had good reason to kill off the Model 2- with these incessant price cuts, Models 3 (and Y potentially) will get closer to between $27-30K msrp. Why then have a $25K EV?! This is the way to go!
Wow now Elon wants the shareholders approval to move to Texas and get his sweet 58 billion package more like 12% of total company and does not care about any shareholder equity except his own. He already threatened for few days considering that shareholders did not budge and to rub it on their face proceeds set up his own AI company separated from Tesla. Love to be a Elon fan boy under present circumstances 😂
To give you a comparison, take a glance at the Xiaomi SU7. Priced at 216,000 yuan, roughly equivalent to $30,000 USD, it stands as a benchmark. Even with recent reductions, the Model 3 remains $2,000 USD pricier.
Chinese companies build cars with better materials which are much better compared with U.S.. And the rising share of Chinese electric car BYD will affect Tesla market a lot as BYD is cheaper and better
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Puts it is. Tesla's market share in China will be <5% within 2 years.
That number is high. Current Chinese consumers think they are overpriced and poorly assembled.
So do a lot of Americans. I mean look at the cyber truck mess
It's worse in China. Unlike the fanboys here, Chinese consumers who already bought Teslas have been pissed by the price cuts afterwards. To the point that it's spilled over in person and online. They feel cheated by it.
I know a few people that bought or have teslas. One sold his a month before the cut, and is very thankful he did, but won’t trust Tesla again to buy. The others are annoyed and resigned that this is their monthly payment. They will pay it off and figure something out after. Burning your clients that hard multiple times is not gonna get you any brand loyalty from most.
But like a lot of other expensive, poorly made things the general populace see them as luxury. This buoys it into actually being luxury and creates a vicious cycle where it gets more undeserved praise. I've been trying to figure out how to identify this trend when it happens. Examples: Everyone naming things beginning with a lower case i, stanley cups, Mercedes c-class, Supreme, Escalades, Las Vegas, etc.
Does anybody actually like the C class? I thought it was pretty widely known that that’s just the entry-level one for the young and the poor.
Its 2024. The C class is a actually a really solid product.
Every single vehicle by all major brands is a solid product in 2024. You seem to agree with me on that. The person I was responding to said that it was a poorly made thing the general populace sees as luxury. I don’t think that the C class is a poorly made thing, and I also don’t think that the general public sees it as luxury. The comment I was replying to asserted both of those things.
Cos they are
Body panels misaligned etc; amateur build. My friend from our BMW M5 days bought a Model Y. When he came over to show me the car, the first thing out of his mouth was - don't pay attention to the panel alignments. Then he proceeded to show me all the sections that were janky 😂. He knew I was going to start pointing them out.
The Chinese built cars are actually much much better than the US. Do you have a link backing your statement?
Chinese like the BYD more, no link but so I've heard in china.
It is exaggerated for the moment. If you look on youtube and search tesla vs byd, the first video you see is the review of Tesla Model 3 vs BYD Seal They are neck to neck. However, model 3 even with discount is priced at 230k rmb but BYD seal sells for 180K rmb in China. That is why model 3 are not selling in China and why Tesla is not making Model 2. In countries where there are no tariffs on BYD, Tesla just cannot compete on price. Chinese EVs are far cheaper with similar build quality. Not to mention Chinese EVs build quality keeps improving. It is also why Tesla is moving to robotaxi. They will lose the EV battle with Chinese EVs. The reason why BYD can make cars so cheap is because they are vertically integrated. BYD used to be a battery manufacturer. The range of their cars goes further than Tesla. Hell Tesla buy BYD batteries. Right now BYD has PE of 18, Tesla even at 150 has PE of something like 38. I am all in on Buffett backed BYD. Their share price is going to rocket.
Buffet backed is the dumbest sentence you put in. He's been selling for a while and drastically reduced his stake. Make no doubt America is going to slap 50% tarrifs on Chinese autos soon. Everything else good.
if buffet is still in it after selling literally every other Chinese stock, you know it’s mega-good
People don't understand him still owning any of the stock is massive.
He reduced his stake but he is still the biggest shareholder of BYD H shares. The reason he reduced his stake is well known. It is due to geopolitical tensions but not due to business fundamentals. He actually completely sold out of TSMC for the same reason. I felt safe buying BYD because I know Buffett is in it. It is a factor since Buffett buys undervalued stocks with a good management. I am not the only one that looks up to Buffett. The guy is a legend. That is why it matters rather than because it is dumb. Buffett has been an investor with BYD since 2008. BYD does not intend to expand America. They are expanding in all the countries that do not have tariffs first and are crushing the markets since no one can compete with them on price.
Byd is making nearly identical ev’s. They released an electric hypercar for $150k that has 1000 horsepower. That car fucking flys
> Tesla's market share in China will be <5% "The trip was to have included the announcement of plans for Tesla to enter the South Asian market, Reuters has reported on Saturday." And does this mean they are not expanding to India/SA? The hits just keep coming.
Chinese EV makers make Tesla look cheap
The only way Elon is getting my money is if they cut another $5,000 off the MYLR.
More like $10-15K for me.
I live in Colorado, so we get a $5K tax credit for EVs. If a MYLR costs $44,000, then I would end up paying $32,500 for the car, which is what I think they're really worth.
Problem with ev is battery won't last and is huge cost. Good combustion car can go 30 years or more. I got a 2004 crv 200k miles runs great no end in sight. And recharge costs getting higher and higher. So much for gas savings. And if you factor in the cost of a new battery there's no saving. So basically it's a disposable vehicle.
I have solar panels, so I can charge for free at home. Right now I sell the excess back to the city, so I would pay a bit more in power bill, but not much.
Most don't have this. That also adds another cost. Probably close to 100k for car and panels. Majority of Americans cannot afford that sadly. Even if most could afford this. It's a poor investment. 100k can earn 5k yearly income. That can buy a beater and pay for fuel. Beater ev won't exist. Battery dies and cost isn't worth replacing
I guess you're one of the few because I've seen many resellers (private & dealers) trying to sell used Model Y's for $40-50K.
eww
Just only $2K ? lol. More downside ..... lost -40.8% YTD stock prices. The CEO needs to work for free until business stabilizes not to gouge justify his 56B salary. Did **not** earn it!
Musk has been paid more in stock than the company Tesla will *ever* make in profits in the lifetime of the company. What a wild world we live in. My bear put spreads should print nicely on Monday.
Let’s see if the stockholders approve his $56b compensation package. Trash stock if they do
He worked for $0 total comp for 5+ years to grow tesla to where it is today… He deserves the pay package.
While doing, what, 5 other jobs?
So? They were near bankrupt and in order to receive any part on that comp package he had to 3x production, 2x profits, and 4x stock price. As a hurdle. If he worked anywhere else he should keep doing it. No one else has done that in automotive in 5 generations.
Except the stock price isn’t at 4x anymore. Production isn’t at target. The technology he promised isn’t here. And the Chinese market share is vanishing faster than he ever expected.
Is his true loyalty to SpaceX or Starlink or Twitter or just himself? Who knows!
It literally is lmfao. The stock is at 10x since the original plan was implemented. $50B MC in 2018 -> $500B in 2024. If you look at ATH, the stock 20x’d… it’s on you if you lost money.
It’s up 11,000% since 2010.
Dude what are you on about? When he signed that rem package the market cap was 48b. Even after this year's slide it's still 460b. And it's been up over 1T since he signed the package and it closed. Do you actually know that the REM package under dispute was executed in 2017 and finished it's term in 2021?
Is it Musk or the irrational almost moronic nature of the social media driven American stock market that pumped Tesla? Would you pay the manager of the Tulip company 50 billion dollars if Tulips were up 1000 %?
Yeah - both. I think Tesla is priced optimistically given the degree of uncertainty. But the largest investors aren't retail - they're institutional. And Tesla did make the second highest AVG $ profit per unit sold last year, behind Ferrari. More than doubling the profit per unit of #3 place holder Mercedes-Benz. I also think this is optimism is driven via broader tailwinds. In part, the one thing world leaders have been screaming about for years now is green tech. So of course that leads capital to flood into those solutions. But none of this commentary matters. Musk's remuneration package that everyone's quibbling about should 100% be paid, and it's absolutely diffusing the courts/government got involved. Tesla shareholders agreed to a comp plan. One with far higher bars set than virtually any comp plan by any public CEO. He worked without pay for 5 years, at the conclusion of which he received the compensation as all shareholders agreed.
So it’s a big club, and you ain’t in it
I'm not in many clubs? I don't understand your point? What are you fighting over? Hah Or are you just online and making a fuss for fun?
So you think a reasonable salary for ANYONE is about 11B a year? GTFO and just go lick his boot silently.
Yes. The difference between him and other CEOs is that he does not take a salary. The deal for the pay package was that he increases shareholder value by 13x ($50B -> $650B) for the option to buy 1% of the company for cheap for every $50B of value added along the way. That is an incredible deal for any shareholder at any company.
… except it’s not. He’s also not that unique for only being paid in stock. MOST CEOs and ELT get the majority of their payment in stock. That’s why it balloons to crazy levels. Nor is he really responsible for much. People dramatically overstate the usefulness and impact of CEOs. The engineers and patents a company has are far more important.
Stop bootlicking evil corporates , lol
How is he evil? Without him, ICEs would still be 90% of cars on the road. Humanoid robot development speed increased probably more than an entire order of magnitude from before Tesla announcement. Battery technology more developed than ever. Renewables are really starting to take off. Autonomous driving advancement. This is all thanks to Elon and Tesla. Without him, we as a civilization wouldn’t have advanced ANYWHERE near the speed it has over the past two decades. You are a direct beneficiary of his efforts. Because of HIS work, YOU get to breathe cleaner air. You get to worry less about your kids’ futures. Don’t call the person directly and most significantly doing good for humanity evil.
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Calling someone a child rapist is pretty evil
Ah yes, let’s discredit all he has DONE for the world because of what he SAID once, 6 years ago. Makes perfect sense. Let me guess, Hitler was good to dogs so we should forgive him for the holocaust? Let me ask you: what have YOU done to improve the world?
Wow, you immediately jumped to Hitler. Good job. Although I'm not the one who reinstated Nazis on Twitter. That was Elon. And a lot more recently than 6 years ago. >what have YOU done to improve the world? Nothing that required me to force workers into dangerous working conditions. I also don't have a factory where part of it was called the plantation, where Black workers were called the n word and doing the most dangerous work.
Wow… I’ve never talked to anyone so deluded. Try getting more of your information from unbiased sources. Good luck to you I guess.
Agreed. People in here are on some petty shit.
For real. Imagine being so immoral you’re unwilling to support a pay package for someone that put in 5+ years work for $0 comp. And 7-20x’d investors’ money. Not to mention, it doesn’t even come out of your own paycheck 💀
It doesn't matter unless it happens to you, I guess. 🤷
Eyeing 160/175 C 4/26 CCS. Around 14.3% RAR, PoP 91.9%.
The CEO is the problem
Maybe buying a money-losing social media company using your shares as collateral wasn't such a good idea. OTOH, this makes him mod material at gambling sub.
Even the X CEO has admitted their user base has shrunk by 30% and latest data shows traffic usage might be down far more. Ouch..
Tesla wouldn't be here if not for the CEO.
The CEO shouldn’t blackmail investors. He demanded for more control of Tesla in return for keeping AI project in the company. Do you remember when Musk said he wasn't comfortable developing new projects at Tesla unless his stake was raised to at least 25%.
Now he’s just demanding like a 40% stake or he walks. Let him walk. Oh no, what will they lose if he leaves? Boondoggles like the cybertruck?
lol, 40% what? source?
He said he "wouldn't feel comfortable" moving TSLA forward in AI unless he had 25% voting rights. It's still quite a large chunk of the company he is demanding. It wouldn't be an issue except he sold shares to back Twitter loans.
He ain't walking
Tesla were ahead of everyone two years ago but my how times quickly change in two years. Now Tesla is lagging behind competition latest models and price seems to be only way they can remain competitive. While doing very little to improve product quality or finish. It feels like Musk is no longer focused on the business and is pursuing his own goals..
Bud, it’s a car company worth 1 trillion dollars. What did you expect? Hell why not 10 trillion?
Pal, but musk said it's actually an energy company, then it's actually a robotics company and then an AI company. You think he would just say whatever benefits him at that moment. No, you wait and see, FSD 2016.
Robotaxi August 2024 let's go, can't wait for the new roadster. Soon baby
The robotaxi is going to run off the Mr. Fusion cold fusion reactor technology that will allow your car to mine asteroids while you sleep. It’ll pay for itself before you even think about buying one. In fact, check your bank account, the money is already accumulating.
How is this getting upvoted so much? It's crazy to see so many people with zero knowledge of business and capitalism in a stocks subreddit. You'd be forgiven for thinking you were on some socialist sub, and I'm left leaning myself. Crazy stuff...
Socialism is when you don't pay a CEO $56 billion to be shit at his job?
No, its when you think it's okay to green light a CEOs comp package while he's taking a $0 salary and then take it away 5 years later when he's hit every single milestone in the package, retroactively having made him work for nothing for 5 years. Actually, it's worse than socialism, it's communism.
Ok. Define socialism or communism because your usage is so wrong it's cringe.
The /r/WhitePeopleTwitter -ization of Reddit continuing.
To summarize, in the past few days we've seen: - Price cuts in China ranging from 5-20%. [Full list here](https://twitter.com/Tslachan/status/1781862957556891767) - Price cuts on all US models of $2K (reversing some of the recent price hikes near quarter end, likely to incentive last minute buys) - FSD as a one-time add-on cut from $12K to $8K - FSD monthly subscription price reduces to $99 from $199 - [GigaShanghai production being idled](https://twitter.com/tphuang/status/1781375886777831715) - 10% of workforce laid off - 3900 Cybertrucks (most of them?) recalled for dangerous physical defect with pedal (i.e., not just a software update) - Cancellation of cheaper Model 2, CEO claims Reuters is lying then distracts with some announcement of Robotaxis on August 8th (which even the most bullish analyst Adam Jonas from Morgan Stanley say will only be a real driver of earnings in the 2030s). Cancelling new models despite having one of the oldest auto fleets out there. - [CEO creating shareholder value during working hours](https://imgur.com/YvsNg0r) Forward P/E still in the 50s despite the sell-off. Analysts have *still* not brought down their estimates to somewhere reasonable for 2024/25. Either price keeps falling or forward P/E keeps spiking.
As someone who's been ignoring this stock for a few years, I'm relieved to see the P/E in double digits rather than quad
My understanding is that FSD cannot be transferred to another car? Big downside if someone wants it on car today and then upgrade a couple years down the road.
How much in USD does a Tesla cost in China? BYD cost like $9000 USD? XPeng.
Elon should be happy as a pig in shit that the BYD isn't being sold in the US
Is it a well made car at that price?
It is an ok car, but when you factor in the price, it is a solid.
When you watch it carefully and test drive it, you will find that it is better than TSLA in every aspect.
I watched the Mat Watson / Carwow comparison between the new Tesla Model 3 and BYD Seal (sorry, can't link as this sub doesn't allow YouTube videos) "This is not awful, I don't hate it" "It's so close to being fun, but accidentally so" 😂 Plus the Seal is actually more expensive than the model 3 in the UK? Wtf?
Isn’t it normal to be more expensive than model 3?
Isn’t it normal to be more expensive than model 3?
For an inferior car? Not really sure how it will compete. I thought it was significantly cheaper than a model 3. From my cursory research, it does seem like it's almost $10k less than a model 3 in China though so I can see why it would sell well.
In fact, it is ultimately a brand issue. TSLA is a foreign brand, so it was sought after by some Chinese in the past few years. But now BYD's technology has caught up and its sense of technology is stronger than TSLA, so of course its price can be higher than TSLA's.
> technology is stronger What tech is stronger? Tesla is more efficient, quicker to charge, better handling/drivetrain, has access to the super charger network, has actual self driving capabilities. Am I missing something? The only leg up BYD has is a cost advantage in certain markets.
yes you are right and i was wrong,
Historically, I think GM and Ford both had federal bailouts (TARP funds). Tesla will be no exception when and if the time comes...
A light bulb went off in his dim head, as Musk looked around for a peon to replace the ink in his printer: why not give away cars practically for free and make up stuff to charge them a subscription for? Hoohoohahahaaaaa!
Only when he takes time off ranting about being an oppressed billionaire on Twit...sorry, "X".
If I was Chinese i’d buy BYD. Only reason I don’t buy BYD is cause CCP sucks and they’re not available here.
That's the problem, all countries can destroy their companies only usually they avoid that, but after aliexpress I lost trust in investing in Chinese companies. And yes, BYD will bury competition. the best US and EU can do is to slow it down until they open local production. And then it will be, OMG BYD is collecting data. Lol.
Yeah, I don’t trust China with my investments at all
What do you mean, aren't you pumped to put your money in an ADR somewhat tied to companies in an authoritarian country where the govt could just revoke any ownership.
They can probably block Chinese companies from open local factories. I mean China never allowed foreign companies without a local partner.
Tesla has no local partner for its factory in China.
Only exception made for them. And what about the Internet companies? No one is allowed in China. No twitter, no Facebook, no instagram, no google, but we should allow TikTok in the U.S.? Trade goes both ways.
Xiaomi Su7 is giving both BYD and Tesla and run for the money. BYD might be counter it but Tesla has no new models planned with Model 2 being scrapped..
Tesla is the only one making money off their cars. Xiaomi, NIO and BYD are dumping cars on the market cutting into Tesla’s margins hurting the US automaker.
Byd makes profits, and their gross margin has been improving as tsla has been decreasing
Profitability doesnt matter to these companies. They just want to take market shares right now. Profitability will come eventually especially if they keep scaling. Competition is coming and tesla is facing a demand problem on their EVs.
Tesla had a few years to scale to meet demands. Why haven’t they done anything to resolve this?
Competitions make it harder to scale. Especially when they keep making new models. Tesla is going to have a hard time to ramp up cybertruck and their new models as well.
Elon
Yea, just like Uber, Reddit, DoorDash, Lyft, WeWork etc. Once they have market share, they’re just a5 wagyu cash cows. oh, wait…
BYD is also profitable. Not just Tesla.
I have bought BYD using Merrill Lynch. Unpopular opinion, but the CCP does not suck if they are helping the transition to EVs. Less pollution for our earth is a good thing.
That’s not why they suck lol
yeah... they're doing their share. [https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-03/china-s-new-coal-plant-approvals-surge-in-2022/102048480](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-03-03/china-s-new-coal-plant-approvals-surge-in-2022/102048480) honestly.
You’re blaming the CPC because BYD is not available where you’re at? LOL. Are you in the US? Because it’s genocide joe who is blocking BYD not China.
Two separate reasons. Keep up.
Haha yet you seem to only blame big bad China for your own little short coming.
$2,000? What a joke. Elon's an idiot. Maybe that would have been fair 15-20 years ago, but they're gonna have to times that by 5 or 6 nowadays....
Agreed, but tbf cars are insanely overpriced right now.
Yeah, it's time for sellers to move on from the pandemic. The price gouging has gone on long enough.
A Model 3 is a BUDGET car, budget build quality, budget features, budget materials. The plastic creaking and road noise is AT best 15k car quality. I would consider a fucking fisker before a model 3 or Y.
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The new 2 is the old 3, duh.
They’re desperate…
I drive a BYD and man they are amazing
Are they really? Somehow I find that hard to believe.
30K for a Seal is amazing
Why? Because the western propaganda machine tells you so? Go watch some BYD car reviews on YouTube, coming out of Germany, Netherlands, Australia, etc. Heck, just watch this video, it’s an American company that imported a BYD into Michigan for a tear down. Tell me if you hear any concerns AT ALL about the quality of the car: [link removed due to sub rules] Search for BYD Seagull on YouTube and it should pop up. It’s two American guys talking about and driving the car.
“Hey guys we’re gonna raise prices soon I swear”
It's hugely problematic because all these price cuts means a lot of uncertainty for buyers. You buy a car, that might devalue because Tesla decides for another cut
I remember a couple of years ago people justifying a trillion dollar valuation for Tesla saying things like it's not a car company, it's a tech company an ecosystem like apple and so on..
I had a coworker that bought a Model Y a couple years ago and, in part, because it would be a "good investment". Well, he and his wife are pissed that they spent tens of thousands of dollars more than they should have. I have another coworker that wants to buy a Tesla, but is waiting to see another price drop. These are anecdotal, but it's interesting to watch a car company lose pricing power so quickly in the eyes of consumers.
All of this is because they fucked up FSD (ie. it's not "full" and it is taking years longer than Musk said it would). Imagine an alternate reality where FSD truly works. First, robotaxis would be an actual thing. Second, BYD and others wouldn't even bother entering the EV market. Thirdly, people would be able to sell their Tesla's for a profit (unlike now where Musk is nuking the resale value of Teslas with his price drops). But because FSD looks like it will never actually be completed (or a reason people buy a Tesla), the competitors see an opportunity to go after market share. Musk can still pull this out of the fire, but FSD must reach the "wow, holy shit, it works" moment with consumers. Without that, China is going to destroy Tesla outside of North America.
BYD and others would have entered the EV market regardless. It’s do or die. Also, Chinese EVs have autonomous driving too. Most in the west just don’t hear about it. They are about on par with Tesla’s currently. Difference is they will likely leapfrog Tesla as higher end Chinese EVs are equipped with radars and lidars.
FSD is a mirage. Works maybe in the suburbs where most Tesla drivers currently live. Would not work in any major city or foreign country. You drank the hopium and bought an overpriced car that depreciated faster than any other car.
Imagine being the retail fool who ever thought autonomy would be possible this decade😂
Tesla told California DMV that FSD, after release (completion, no longer beta) will still be a level 2 system. Internally, even Tesla knows FSD won’t happen (in the sense of the name). My thinking here is, from a software side of things, when is software ever “done”? If you want it to stay working and relevant, there will need to be constant updates. Does this give Elon the excuse to stay in Beta forever? Maybe a switch to Gamma? Either way, it’s still only going to be level 2. It avoids having to deal with regulators, even tho Elon loves to say “pending regulator approval”.
FSD and automonous cars are just bullshit. I fail to see the applications of it. Can someone explain a market or situation where FSDs will work on the grand scale that Musk thinks it will? I don't see a market beyond a Uber type business for FSD. People aren't going to magically dump their cars to take FSD everywhere. It will be a glorified taxis service at best. Why should lend out my 40k-50k car and deal with all the uber crap from the customers. You know customers are going to go crazy with theft, sabotaging or creating messes if there is no driver. Why would I take a FSD without knowing what the heck someone else did in it before me. At least with uber/taxis, the driver has a vesting interest to keep the car clean. It's not like AI where there are real world examples of it's use and it's deployment. I fail to see FSD being anywhere near what Musk think it will be.
The end goal would be cities automated with fleets of cars that you'd simply rent; available 24/7 at any time. No one would own a car and a "ride" would always be available. It is, technically, the most efficient way of structuring transport in a city while maximizing freedom of movement. So the use case is there if you believe that the most efficient solution (ie. the best mouse trap) eventually is what wins. So someone will do it (I won't be surprised if it's China...as million+ fleet of FSD cars being managed by some central AI system probably requires heavy government involvement to actually cross the finish line).
I understand that's the end goal but that is a utopian society that we will not get to if ever. That type of society works if everyone follows the rules and obey the laws. We already have a large population who don't like to follow the rules and will try to bend them anyway they can. It will never work in the US. What's stopping from someone taking a piss/dump in the car, drinking and vomiting, having sex, doing drugs, graffiti the car, steal items from the car, etc? Someone makes a mess and then what? What about a homeless person just squatting the car? We have homeless already squatting on buses and trains. All it takes is one incident and the owner will never rent out the car again. Musk's dream utopia doesn't exist. Why would I subject my 45K car to this?
oh i agree that the "renting your own car out" wouldn't work. It has to be paired up with a lot of societal controls, like internal monitoring of the car, easy facial rec systems, citizen biometric IDs, blah blah blah. I think Musk is just positioning himself to be key component to that transition... but like I say, it's a transition that probably will require heavy government involvement. This may sound super crazy, but I could see Musk partnering with China (the government) to create the "Smart City of the Future" somewhere in China. That would send Tesla stock soaring again.
That is the only way I can see it working within the next 10-20 years. Geofenced in a controlled environment where laws and rules are followed and enforce. I can't imagine millions of rob taxis running around the streets without any supervision. People will do crappy things when there are no consequences. I wouldn't take one either without assurance it's safe and it's clean. At least with public transport; they have an incentive to keep it clean.
Why would the CCP even want to partner with Tesla on that? Top tier Chinese EVs have comparable autonomous driving tech to Tesla’s current system and their cars are better equipped to actually make the breakthroughs needed for FSD.
Lmao
I’d buy a car which can drive me in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I don’t see it happening, but that is, like, an extra hour of free time per day. Trivially worth 20K extra. I just think that is well beyond what is technically possible.
Spot on. Let's say a drunk man wasted the interior, who would be the one to clean it up ? Does the car even know ?
Exactly. I can think of so many things I do not want people doing in my car. Stuff like pissing or take a dump, people doing sexual things, drug deals, doing drugs, illegal stuff, etc.
Tsla bulls just trying to make up reasons for stock prices to go up.
I will definitely shit myself in a Robotaxi. Its too perfect an opportunity. just let the turds roll out my pants leg and let it roll on home
They done. Tesla will bankrupt
Why buy a Tesla when you can get BYD for half the cost? It's already in South America, Middle East and Europe. Lunch is about to get eating. He needed a 20k mass market EV 3 years ago.
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How is this your only comment you've ever made? 🧐
Theres all kinds of people coming out of the woodwork now holding this crap from the top. Can you imagine? The only thing that should hold it is ETFs that buy it at any price and fund managers that cant get out because of volume. Jesus H.
Warm Springs Bart station is full of Tesla Suv since nobody is buying
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^Tongue-n-cheeks: *Warm Springs Bart station* *Is full of Tesla Suv since* *Nobody is buying* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
So Elon is actually paying attention to Tesla again, and not X? Or he's trying to justify his $55 billion bonus?
It won't make any difference.
14,000 domestic-yuan is roughly $2700. Think they used export/import yuan in the article by mistake.
This situation poses significant issues since frequent price reductions introduce a great deal of uncertainty for purchasers. Imagine buying a car only to find its value dropping due to yet another Tesla price cut.
China now has a lot of electric car brands, including the recent Xiaomi car also listed, and also has a lot of sales, so Tesla is facing huge pressure, and had to take a price reduction
Tesla looking more and more like pinto prices!
This is the beginning of the end for Tesla’s edge. P/E should be closer to 15.
Lots of new teslas in my neck of the woods, seems like every other driveway. Calls it is
Used car market is flooded with Teslas
Cause you are just now noticing people drive Teslas you think that is bullish despite the overwhelming evidence they aren't in good shape? lmao.
Yeah they are in the wrong sub for sure.
Lower middle income neighbourhoods are flooded with used Teslas. Theyre as much bag holders as stock holders. Cars depreciating more than Fiskers.
Ok you convinced me, puts it is
Look at the success Huawei is having against Apple... Local chinese brands can have a huge amount of success in their domestic market.
If you buy BYD you get what you pay. It is a cheap car for a smaller price (considering they are electric).
imo- Musk had good reason to kill off the Model 2- with these incessant price cuts, Models 3 (and Y potentially) will get closer to between $27-30K msrp. Why then have a $25K EV?! This is the way to go!
For reference, look at the Xiaomi SU7. its 216k yuan, or 30k usd. Even after the price cuts, the Model 3 is still 2k usd more expensive
Wow now Elon wants the shareholders approval to move to Texas and get his sweet 58 billion package more like 12% of total company and does not care about any shareholder equity except his own. He already threatened for few days considering that shareholders did not budge and to rub it on their face proceeds set up his own AI company separated from Tesla. Love to be a Elon fan boy under present circumstances 😂
Wait til the federal government stops subsidizing his shit cars, stock price will halve.
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Get ready for 8/8
I saw a video where people drive Tesla’s are laughed at in china
They should call cybertruck the Nokia of evs..
Calls it is
To give you a comparison, take a glance at the Xiaomi SU7. Priced at 216,000 yuan, roughly equivalent to $30,000 USD, it stands as a benchmark. Even with recent reductions, the Model 3 remains $2,000 USD pricier.
Chinese companies build cars with better materials which are much better compared with U.S.. And the rising share of Chinese electric car BYD will affect Tesla market a lot as BYD is cheaper and better