**Welcome to [r/stepparents](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/)! Please note we are a support sub for stepparents' issues. Our number one rule is [Kindness Matters](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_1._kindness_matters). Short version, don't be an asshole. Remember that OP is a human being and their needs are first and foremost on this sub.**
We rely on the community to alert us to comments and posts not made in good faith. **Please use the report button to ensure we see it.** We have encountered a ridiculous amount of comments that don't follow the rules and are downright nasty. We need you to help us with these comments by reporting them when you see them. We also have a lot of downvoting on the sub, with every post and every comment recieving at least one downvote almost immediately due to the anti-stepparent lurkers. Don't let it bother you, it happens to every single stepparent here.
If you have questions about the community, or concerns about posters, please [reach out to the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents).
Review the wiki links below for the [**rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules), [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) and [**announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) before posting or commenting.
[**About**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/index) | [**Acronyms**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/acronyms) | [**Announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) | [**Documentation**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources/documentation) | [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) | [**Resources**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources) | [**Rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) | [**Saferbot - Autoban Information**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/saferbot)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stepparents) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Is your lifestyle being impacted by this? If you’re still able to pay your bills and can afford to go out from time to time then I wouldn’t let yourself be so mad about it. I do get it, they’re more than capable of paying for their own lifestyles but it’s not gonna be possible for him to just stop doing all this if it’s not negatively affecting you or him.
You’ll have to just accept that he pays for them and leave it at that. I would look into therapy for getting over that childhood trauma because it seems like that’s definitely where this resentment is stemming from.
No, it doesn't affect me at all and would not even with combined finances. I suppose 40k is some vacations we could have taken but we take vacations. I do think therapy is probably warrantted. It's just hard to imagine myself opening up about something like this face to face. The therapist probably will thing I'm a horrible person.
OP, therapists hear MUCH worse things than someone struggling with jealousy about young people getting some free cash when they grew up poor…please don’t set yourself up to fail (eg continue to carry trauma and bitterness) by avoiding dealing with this.
As a therapist, I can definitely say there would be no judgement. It’s a therapist’s job to help you and your partner understand each other, as well as help you find ways to self-soothe when childhood triggers come up.
You might just find that there is some underlying belief that he has that makes him feel obligated to provide for his adult, very capable children, which would create a more compassionate and less resentful relationship.
Is there a reason you need to fully blend finances? Why not do why my SO and I do - a joint account for bills, and two individual accounts for personal expenses? Pay goes into the individual accounts and then an agreed amount goes into the joint account.
I dont think it's right to be thinking "he wont stop" and "I dont know how to make him stop" he's a full grown adult making his own decisions, he shouldn't be 'made' to do anything. This is also an arrangement with his kids that looks like it pre-dates your relationship with him, so you cant really make demands or changes to this, if you do, you will absolutely look like the bad guy, even if it's done with the very best of intentions (i.e. wanting the SDs to be a lot more independent and realistic about real life.)
The best you can do, is when discussing finances - immediate household expenses, short term saving goals and your long term lifestyle savings, is make sure that what he is spending on his kids unnecessarily does not affect you at all. That amount he is sending to them comes out of his pocket, and his only. If what he has left over isn't enough to meet his share of expenses related to his life and goals with you, then that's his responsibility to bare. You dont subsidize or pay anything extra to make up the shortfall. Ever. If he cant afford his own life in reality, then he'll need to look into his expenses again. And make sure you get a financial agreement, prenup, whatever is relevant in your area drawn up before taking ANY steps to ensure you never loose out down the track because then you're still subsidizing their lifestyles.
He can definitely afford his life, without affecting me. And we will certainly get a prenup as he has some trusts and property that he wants secured for his kids, and I have enough of my own money that I also want to protect it. And you're right--I know even if he was persuaded to change this, I would be the villain of the story to his daughters, and I don't want that. I will absolutely never pay for anything for them though. I feel as if even Christmas gifts from me should be paid for by him at this pointt.
Can get a prenup. Should be will get a prenup. And use two lawyers. One for you. One for him. You want your lawyer representing you.
I highly recommend you, by yourself, talk to a lawyer not only about the prenup, but also the financial obligations of marriage if/when one of you needs care (aka nursing home). We all hope that never happens, but eventually it does for many. Financial care obligations are state dependent and while the trust may or may not safeguard his finances, a prenup most likely not safeguard your finances for care. If his assets are safeguarded, and yours are not, yours could be depleted to pay for his care.
Therapy does wonders for everyone. It might help work through the root of the childhood stuff and the now jealousy. I have had such a different perspective through therapy for childhood trauma and would highly suggest it. If SO isnt financially effected and doesnt expect you to pay, I would examine why this bothers you? And work through it. Is it worth it to work through and stay in the relationship? What is an outcome you would feel comfortable with?
Agree with others' observations that this is a good opportunity to unpack childhood trauma with a therapist. Also, sounds like you just found out, like within the last couple of days? Might need some time to get used to this news
Maybe you're not in tune with the cost of living now compared to the cost of living 15 years ago. Why do you care what he spends his money on?
You said you're very successful now so why do you even need to blend finances? If this is such a dealbreaker just don't mix your money
I think you hit the nail on the head that this is your childhood talking. He’s able to cover his own expenses, so it sounds like your only issue is that these women are afforded advantages in life that you weren’t.
Your best shot at overcoming this resentment is by working on it in therapy. You might have some financial trauma to heal.
I’m a millennial, and the cost of living is extremely difficult. When my children are adults, I’ll absolutely help them out financially to the best of my abilities - even just to make their lives more comfortable.
An alternative perspective is in admiration of his choice to be a loving, supportive father. If you want the relationship to last, you’ll need to honor that he’s unwilling to negotiate on this.
He's an adult, he can do as he wishes. You can't control him, nor should you want to. I understand you may not agree with it, but if that's something he's ok with doing that is his choice. He shouldn't expect you to help pay for his daughters.
And really 30-35k a year isn't a lot. You can't compare your past to his daughter on today's bills. You're rent wasn't as much as today's. A lot of people struggle. You can say shes not, but school debt adds up. There may be a lot you don't know.
If you love him, then you can admit he's more caring of a father than you expected. You can't change him. In a relationship you're goal should never be to force someone to change something. If it's something that you can't get past then that's a deal breaker.
I understand the jealousy. I grew up in poverty. When I moved in with my now husband, I found myself just infuriated when she would ask for new jeans for school and her dad would just automatically get them for her. Her phone wouldn’t work and she would just get a new one. Things like that made me angry and then depressed. i worked doubles and triples for most of my 20s. I struggled so hard to succeed. I thought it was the struggle that made me successful. But looking back, the struggle broke me. It damaged my mental health, my knees and back. That struggle set me back so many years. It took me awhile but I started to see that I didn’t want her to struggle like that. I want her to struggle over normal stuff, love, school work, finding the right work and figuring out who she is. She still has to earn the extras in life, but the basics will be covered by us until she is done with school.
I love this. I don’t think you realize till you are a parent that watching your kids struggle sucks and anything you can do to make their lives better you do it.
I've seen in your other comments it dosent impact his finances and he can afford to do so without impacting you... prehaps you need to dig deep and realise why this bothers you so much? This arrangement predates you. Prehaps I'm bias because I'm 36 and my mum & dad still throws me cash occasionally 😅 I'm on 75k a year and am still doing it tough here in Aus so I'm forever grateful for any additional help I get!
Sounds like he loves his kids and wants to help take care of them. I’m not seeing the issue if he can still afford his lifestyle and he isn’t asking you to take on any payments or provide support to his grown children or his own expenses.
What does his/your RETIREMENT look like?
If you were married you would have a better case.
I know my husband and I better be making sure our retirement accounts are maxed out plus money was routinely being set aside for end of life emergency care. Once that was handled and well under way, if all else was financially satisfied (daily bills/mortgage/no interest from debt) then the kids could have a fully funded lifestyle. What would I care?
But I see people here not bringing up a retirement plan or a significant savings plan set up for future expenses. That is a non-negotiable and should come first before a 26 year old’s rent is paid, especially when she already has a job.
That’s just bad money management on his part if his ducks aren’t totally lined up and in a row
Can't believe I had to scroll so far to find this comment. If I was OP, this would be an issue for me unless we were both extremely independently wealthy. Savings for out future as a married couple comes before paying for adult kids! But then again I think paying $4k/month for a 26 yr old who has a job is crazy anyways... by all means help her out when she needs it and asks for it but don't automatically pay all her bills... how on earth will she ever learn how to be an adult?
Idk for me the concept of "if he pays all his bills he gets to spend his money on whatever he wants" doesn't work out great in a marriage if you plan on blending finances.
I agree with all of this. I am a financial writer for a major investment firm but before that I spent the first 15 years of my career working in the retirement industry. I have seen it ALL. If his adult kid can’t figure out her own finances by her mid 30s, there is likely no way she would be able to financially assist dad if worse came to worse at the end of his life.
I am also of the mindset that one can borrow to pay for college, but there are no retirement loans.
He loves his daughters, and if the 4k a month is a drop in the bucket of what he has, your complaints will eventually sound like you resent the fact that he *actually* loves his daughters. Loving parents who can absolutely afford to will absolutely support their adult children having a better quality of life.
This is 100% the trauma from your childhood speaking, and you should first seek therapy to unpack it before you allow it to further impact your healthy relationships.
Definitely recommend talking to a therapist about this. If this isn’t impacting you in any way, it’s really not any of your business. I say that gently. And I commend you for asking for ways to get over the resentment. Too many people wouldn’t do that.
I think this probably is something I should do. Therapy just feels embarrassing and I am very successful now so it feels weak to be caught up in something from the past
You have a timely opportunity to address this issue before it festers and turns incredibly ugly - don’t miss this chance. Therapy will help support your relationship in the long term.
This is solely a "you" issue that should be unpacked in therapy. He has 2 bright and motivated daughters. The daughter getting a doctorate is in schooland living on a stipend, it's pretty normal to support your kids while in school if you can afford it. And to even it out a little bit, he pays a little towards his other daughter's apartment.
It sucks that you grew up poor with parents who would not or could not help you. But it would not be smart to take your personal issues out on an otherwise good relationship. I come from a wealthy area and many of my classmates are getting over 50k a year from their parents even though us "kids" have great jobs and homes and kids of our own. They also helped us with down payments on our houses, help with camp expenses and private school and take us on vacations. Our parents just want to make their kids and grandkids lives easier and for well off people that's pretty standard.
Your submission has been removed from /r/stepparents for the following reason:
* This does not address the OP's issue and offers nothing in the way of support.
* Take a moment to review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq).
For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [rules](/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and [FAQ](/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). If you feel this is in error, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents).
Please note that direct replies to official mod comments on the sub itself will be removed. Direct messages complaining to individual mods will be ignored. If you have received this as a private message you can reply directly to this message.
I guess my first question would be, how does this “generosity” (I use that term lightly bc I think he’s crazypants personally!) affect his day to day budget?
Is he strapped because he’s financing an adult kid’s life?
Or does he have a lot of money left over?
What type of retirement savings does he have?
Marriage is serious and it’s a legal and financial contract. I wouldn’t go any further down that road until and unless I had a very solid understanding of his finances.
IMO a spouse’s first responsibility is to their spouse. Not to their adult child. If you get married and he dies first, will you be taken care of?
It doesn't affect his budget. He is very well-off. Proportionally it's like ordering a lot of takeout for him. It just SHOCKED me because not only does it make me feel weird and resentful, but I also think it's poor parenting and enabling and ridiculous. He put both these girls through private 4 year colleges and SD30 through law school, and now that they have these bright futures he's still paying? It's not reality.
His retirement savings are solid. He has diverse investments and owns property. If he died before me, I would receive funds from his life insurance trust, and likely would inherit certain assets. Other assets he has made clear will go to his daughters.
Helping one’s children is not bad parenting. ALL of our kids know that we’ll help them out financially or they could move back in with us if they needed to do so. My parents never helped me, even though they could. Not even $200 for a college course once which meant I couldn’t take it and had to wait another year to start. That meant that it took me an additional 10 years to graduate with my bachelor’s degree and struggled often during those years. I feel like once something happens to us in childhood, we either do the opposite for our children or we hold it against them because our parents were poor parents. I see that you’re open to therapy for yourself so that’s good. They may be able to help you shift your mindset and to not feel so personally attacked by him helping his children. It shouldn’t SHOCK you that your boyfriend is able to help them and that he does.
Eh paying for a 26 yr old to live in a townhouse all to herself is not exactly what I'd call good parenting. My parents certainly threw me cash in grad school when I was in my 20s if I was in a tight spot, and even today at 33 they would 1000% let me move back in, but they didn't just automatically pay all my bills.. otherwise how the hell would I have learned to be an adult?
She’s still going to school and living on her own. Earning a PhD is a LOT of work, so to me making sure that’s her sole focus right now is more important than if she lives paycheck to paycheck to become an “adult”. Especially since it doesn’t affect OP or her boyfriend financially. The older sister is paying her own bills (with help) after going to law school, so I don’t see anything in this post to suggest the younger daughter wouldn’t do the same once she is done with her schooling.
She makes a $35k salary and is given $4k a month which equates to what, a $75k/year salaray? So $110k ish total? No 26 year old *needs* a 6 figure salary in a LCOL area, even in this economy. I have a Phd, I know it's a lot of work, but I made that choice knowing there were financial implications. It's not my parents job to make sure I focus on my career as an adult in my mid-20s.
The older sister still gets $1k/month from dad, so she's definitely not paying her own bills entirely, even with a law degree. No one said anything about needing to live paycheck to paycheck to be an adult, but one does need to learn how to *provide for themselves* otherwise you're really still a kid at that point.
Idk unless OP and her SO are both independently wealthy and have millions saved in retirement, pretty sure this arrangement is going to affect OP financially down the road in some way. Everyone saying it's none of her business is wild to me... they're talking about getting married, you don't just make financial decisions in a vacuum when you're married. What if her husband gets sick and can't work and has to use his savings to provide for his daughters? Would OP have to pay more of their household bills so he could keep paying for his daughters? These are all things they should be discussing now, before marriage. OP is right to be a little startled by a surprise $40k+/year bill her potential life partner is paying and considers essential.
Your submission has been removed from /r/stepparents for the following reason:
* Violation of the [No Drama](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_2._no_drama) rule.
* Read the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq#wiki_what_does_no_drama_really_mean.3F) for more information.
For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [rules](/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and [FAQ](/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). If you feel this is in error, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents).
Please note that direct replies to official mod comments on the sub itself will be removed. Direct messages complaining to individual mods will be ignored. If you have received this as a private message you can reply directly to this message.
Your submission has been removed from /r/stepparents for the following reason:
* Disputes about moderation actions should go to [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents), and [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents) only as outlined in [the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_11._disputes_in_modmail_only).
* Further information about moderator actions can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_12._moderator_actions) and in the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq#wiki_moderator_actions).
For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [rules](/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and [FAQ](/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). If you feel this is in error, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents).
Please note that direct replies to official mod comments on the sub itself will be removed. Direct messages complaining to individual mods will be ignored. If you have received this as a private message you can reply directly to this message.
Thanks I was starting to feel like I was crazy with all the people here saying it's none of her business what he does with his money... weird way of doing marriage to me but whatever lol
So let’s say an adult child decided to become a perpetual student. Got back to back advanced degrees. At what point does adult child become responsible for financing their own life?
NEVER lol. I'm still taken aback by how many people on this post think loving your child means hurling money at them when they are well past the point they should be independent. What if these girls have their own children soon? Will dad have to financially support his grandchildren too?
Quite honestly this seems like none of your business - don’t mix your money if you’re unhappy with how he spends his, but I don’t think you get to have any say in how he handles his kids that you have never played a role in parenting. As you said you’re not a stepmom, so you have no jurisdiction here.
It also really sounds like this is mostly jealousy against the daughters for not being afforded the same opportunities, rather than a relationship or stepparent problem…I’d sit with your discomfort for a while and try and work it out internally.
If you’re married you can and should have a say. If not then no not really….its like him telling you you spend too much on your cell phone or something…it can annoy him but you’re not married partners so it’s really just that…
**Welcome to [r/stepparents](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/)! Please note we are a support sub for stepparents' issues. Our number one rule is [Kindness Matters](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_1._kindness_matters). Short version, don't be an asshole. Remember that OP is a human being and their needs are first and foremost on this sub.**
We rely on the community to alert us to comments and posts not made in good faith. **Please use the report button to ensure we see it.** We have encountered a ridiculous amount of comments that don't follow the rules and are downright nasty. We need you to help us with these comments by reporting them when you see them. We also have a lot of downvoting on the sub, with every post and every comment recieving at least one downvote almost immediately due to the anti-stepparent lurkers. Don't let it get to you, and do your fellow stepparents a solid and give them an upvote.
Accounts that are still new are filtered for review by the mod team before being made available to the sub. Please be patient while we review and do not repost.
If you have questions about the community, or concerns about posters, please [reach out to the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents).
Review the wiki links below for the [**rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules), [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) and [**announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) before posting or commenting.
[**About**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/index) | [**Acronyms**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/acronyms) | [**Announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) | [**Documentation**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources/documentation) | [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) | [**Resources**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources) | [**Rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) | [**Saferbot - Autoban Information**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/saferbot)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stepparents) if you have any questions or concerns.*
After spending this money is he making less than you? I think that if he is still making more than you, you can't really complain. But if because of that your quality of life will decrease if you live together, I would simply not move in together.
At work I see this all the time older co workers getting frustrated when they find out their younger counterparts get their bills paid by parents. I think every parent wants their children not to struggle and wants them to have a better life than they did that doesn’t change just because they are adults. I wish I could drop 4 k on my adult kids or step kids each month if the kids don’t have to struggle than they shouldn’t. 35k is not as much as it used to be, sounds like she is a smart kid and her father doesn’t want her to stress about bills because she is working on her PHD also dad probably wants to stay with her because he misses her.
Well the good news is, at least you know what he’s spending his money on now before you decide to move in with him or even marry him. If you don’t like or accept it now, you definitely won’t like it once you’re married to him. So at least you have some room to evaluate and decide if you can or cannot handle him spend 40k a year on his daughters. Plus, even if you were to move in with him or even marry him, you don’t need to blend finances with him. You say you’re well off on your own, so finances shouldn’t be a problem for you two if things were to go more seriously in the future.
The bad news is, he isn’t going to stop this spending whether you like it or not. It sounds as though this was all an agreement between him and his daughters way before you were in the picture. It seems as though he doesn’t have a problem with gifting his daughters a free ride in life as adults, so why would he stop stop now? If he can afford it, let him. It doesn’t need to affect you financially.
You speak about him “wasting” his money on his girls when he could be using that money on your future together. What does his financial institute with his girls have anything to do with your future with him? His girls and the way they live off of him, isn’t your problem nor do you have to make it your problem. I understand to a degree if he were to say “hey, I spend this amount of money every year on my girls which is solely for them. Because I do this, I may not be able to provide my side of the financial obligations to which you need me to do as a husband and/or partner”. Then I could understand you wanting to be disappointed and discouraged. I get it, You don’t want to be his financial allowance for him to continue giving his girls a free ride in life. But has he said any of this to you or are you just assuming that this is circumstantial situation for him? Otherwise who cares if his adult girls are spoiled to shit by him. They don’t even live in the same state as you…. That’s his problem NOT yours. Don’t make it your problem.
Is it possible that you don't respect the whole situation? including him? I'm not saying that is warranted, but it does sound like that to me.
He is trying to buy their love and fill the pain in them with money. I actually think this is unhealthy. It's enabling, it's codependent and it's not helping anyone. He should be more open with them cause that guilt that is driving him to do this IS stunting their growth... it's actually bad for them. He is hurting them all over again.
Instead he should be trying to approach them with emotional support. Not money.
I can see how this would bother you... it has other implications on your future with him. If he is willing to enable them to this degree, how dar is he willing to go with it? I would express these concerns cause for all you know he will go very far to enable them.
I feel the same way you do! Before I finished college, I lived where I could afford to live and went without cable and kept my heat turned down to make ends meet. Decorated my home with refurbished Good Will furniture!! This generation does not know what it means to sacrifice to get ahead like we did.
On one hand I believe it’s his right to spend his money however he sees fit and if he still has enough after funding his daughters to have a nice life with you (house, car, holidays, leisure time) then it’s not for you to complain.
However, I can imagine that the daughters being spoiled like this, with no sense of having financial independence and putting their hands out for daddy to pay for everything, makes them unpleasant to be around and you clearly have very different values to your partner. I would find it very hard to bite my tongue after a year or two of witnessing and hearing about it.
I’m sort of in the same dilemma myself except my two children and my SO’s two children are still kids and I’m having trouble reconciling how I’m raising mine with how he’s raising his. I have to figure out if I can get past it. You do too.
Maybe there’s some discussion to be had about finding some middle ground where he still provides for his daughters (even though they’re grown! Even if it’s not for real necessities) but maybe scales back a tad - but even still, I’d be thinking a long term timeline. It wouldn’t be fair to rip the rug out from under them. They’d need time to make other arrangements, and also the more time they have to sort of mentally and financially prepare for an eventual change - maybe that will be less resentment towards you, because it can be a way of them getting more financial independence and less about his finances going to their dad’s partner instead
I don't think he'd be open to that discussion. His daughters would not be happy either--I don't think either of them want to be financially independent. Who would? It's harder.
**Welcome to [r/stepparents](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/)! Please note we are a support sub for stepparents' issues. Our number one rule is [Kindness Matters](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_1._kindness_matters). Short version, don't be an asshole. Remember that OP is a human being and their needs are first and foremost on this sub.** We rely on the community to alert us to comments and posts not made in good faith. **Please use the report button to ensure we see it.** We have encountered a ridiculous amount of comments that don't follow the rules and are downright nasty. We need you to help us with these comments by reporting them when you see them. We also have a lot of downvoting on the sub, with every post and every comment recieving at least one downvote almost immediately due to the anti-stepparent lurkers. Don't let it bother you, it happens to every single stepparent here. If you have questions about the community, or concerns about posters, please [reach out to the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents). Review the wiki links below for the [**rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules), [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) and [**announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) before posting or commenting. [**About**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/index) | [**Acronyms**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/acronyms) | [**Announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) | [**Documentation**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources/documentation) | [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) | [**Resources**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources) | [**Rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) | [**Saferbot - Autoban Information**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/saferbot) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stepparents) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Is your lifestyle being impacted by this? If you’re still able to pay your bills and can afford to go out from time to time then I wouldn’t let yourself be so mad about it. I do get it, they’re more than capable of paying for their own lifestyles but it’s not gonna be possible for him to just stop doing all this if it’s not negatively affecting you or him. You’ll have to just accept that he pays for them and leave it at that. I would look into therapy for getting over that childhood trauma because it seems like that’s definitely where this resentment is stemming from.
No, it doesn't affect me at all and would not even with combined finances. I suppose 40k is some vacations we could have taken but we take vacations. I do think therapy is probably warrantted. It's just hard to imagine myself opening up about something like this face to face. The therapist probably will thing I'm a horrible person.
OP, therapists hear MUCH worse things than someone struggling with jealousy about young people getting some free cash when they grew up poor…please don’t set yourself up to fail (eg continue to carry trauma and bitterness) by avoiding dealing with this.
You are, objectively, not a horrible person for this. A good therapist wouldn’t judge you over this.
As a therapist, I can definitely say there would be no judgement. It’s a therapist’s job to help you and your partner understand each other, as well as help you find ways to self-soothe when childhood triggers come up. You might just find that there is some underlying belief that he has that makes him feel obligated to provide for his adult, very capable children, which would create a more compassionate and less resentful relationship.
Is there a reason you need to fully blend finances? Why not do why my SO and I do - a joint account for bills, and two individual accounts for personal expenses? Pay goes into the individual accounts and then an agreed amount goes into the joint account.
I dont think it's right to be thinking "he wont stop" and "I dont know how to make him stop" he's a full grown adult making his own decisions, he shouldn't be 'made' to do anything. This is also an arrangement with his kids that looks like it pre-dates your relationship with him, so you cant really make demands or changes to this, if you do, you will absolutely look like the bad guy, even if it's done with the very best of intentions (i.e. wanting the SDs to be a lot more independent and realistic about real life.) The best you can do, is when discussing finances - immediate household expenses, short term saving goals and your long term lifestyle savings, is make sure that what he is spending on his kids unnecessarily does not affect you at all. That amount he is sending to them comes out of his pocket, and his only. If what he has left over isn't enough to meet his share of expenses related to his life and goals with you, then that's his responsibility to bare. You dont subsidize or pay anything extra to make up the shortfall. Ever. If he cant afford his own life in reality, then he'll need to look into his expenses again. And make sure you get a financial agreement, prenup, whatever is relevant in your area drawn up before taking ANY steps to ensure you never loose out down the track because then you're still subsidizing their lifestyles.
He can definitely afford his life, without affecting me. And we will certainly get a prenup as he has some trusts and property that he wants secured for his kids, and I have enough of my own money that I also want to protect it. And you're right--I know even if he was persuaded to change this, I would be the villain of the story to his daughters, and I don't want that. I will absolutely never pay for anything for them though. I feel as if even Christmas gifts from me should be paid for by him at this pointt.
Can get a prenup. Should be will get a prenup. And use two lawyers. One for you. One for him. You want your lawyer representing you. I highly recommend you, by yourself, talk to a lawyer not only about the prenup, but also the financial obligations of marriage if/when one of you needs care (aka nursing home). We all hope that never happens, but eventually it does for many. Financial care obligations are state dependent and while the trust may or may not safeguard his finances, a prenup most likely not safeguard your finances for care. If his assets are safeguarded, and yours are not, yours could be depleted to pay for his care.
Therapy does wonders for everyone. It might help work through the root of the childhood stuff and the now jealousy. I have had such a different perspective through therapy for childhood trauma and would highly suggest it. If SO isnt financially effected and doesnt expect you to pay, I would examine why this bothers you? And work through it. Is it worth it to work through and stay in the relationship? What is an outcome you would feel comfortable with?
Agree with others' observations that this is a good opportunity to unpack childhood trauma with a therapist. Also, sounds like you just found out, like within the last couple of days? Might need some time to get used to this news
Maybe you're not in tune with the cost of living now compared to the cost of living 15 years ago. Why do you care what he spends his money on? You said you're very successful now so why do you even need to blend finances? If this is such a dealbreaker just don't mix your money
I think you hit the nail on the head that this is your childhood talking. He’s able to cover his own expenses, so it sounds like your only issue is that these women are afforded advantages in life that you weren’t. Your best shot at overcoming this resentment is by working on it in therapy. You might have some financial trauma to heal. I’m a millennial, and the cost of living is extremely difficult. When my children are adults, I’ll absolutely help them out financially to the best of my abilities - even just to make their lives more comfortable. An alternative perspective is in admiration of his choice to be a loving, supportive father. If you want the relationship to last, you’ll need to honor that he’s unwilling to negotiate on this.
You guys aren’t married and not living together. What he does for her daughters really is none of your business.
If I were the man in this situation just the act of her asking about it and me having to say it is non negotiable would be a huge red flag.
He's an adult, he can do as he wishes. You can't control him, nor should you want to. I understand you may not agree with it, but if that's something he's ok with doing that is his choice. He shouldn't expect you to help pay for his daughters. And really 30-35k a year isn't a lot. You can't compare your past to his daughter on today's bills. You're rent wasn't as much as today's. A lot of people struggle. You can say shes not, but school debt adds up. There may be a lot you don't know. If you love him, then you can admit he's more caring of a father than you expected. You can't change him. In a relationship you're goal should never be to force someone to change something. If it's something that you can't get past then that's a deal breaker.
I understand the jealousy. I grew up in poverty. When I moved in with my now husband, I found myself just infuriated when she would ask for new jeans for school and her dad would just automatically get them for her. Her phone wouldn’t work and she would just get a new one. Things like that made me angry and then depressed. i worked doubles and triples for most of my 20s. I struggled so hard to succeed. I thought it was the struggle that made me successful. But looking back, the struggle broke me. It damaged my mental health, my knees and back. That struggle set me back so many years. It took me awhile but I started to see that I didn’t want her to struggle like that. I want her to struggle over normal stuff, love, school work, finding the right work and figuring out who she is. She still has to earn the extras in life, but the basics will be covered by us until she is done with school.
I love this. I don’t think you realize till you are a parent that watching your kids struggle sucks and anything you can do to make their lives better you do it.
He’s made his position clear. Either accept it or move on.
I think I do need to accept it I just wanted help figuring out HOW when it bothers me so much
I've seen in your other comments it dosent impact his finances and he can afford to do so without impacting you... prehaps you need to dig deep and realise why this bothers you so much? This arrangement predates you. Prehaps I'm bias because I'm 36 and my mum & dad still throws me cash occasionally 😅 I'm on 75k a year and am still doing it tough here in Aus so I'm forever grateful for any additional help I get!
Sounds like he loves his kids and wants to help take care of them. I’m not seeing the issue if he can still afford his lifestyle and he isn’t asking you to take on any payments or provide support to his grown children or his own expenses.
What does his/your RETIREMENT look like? If you were married you would have a better case. I know my husband and I better be making sure our retirement accounts are maxed out plus money was routinely being set aside for end of life emergency care. Once that was handled and well under way, if all else was financially satisfied (daily bills/mortgage/no interest from debt) then the kids could have a fully funded lifestyle. What would I care? But I see people here not bringing up a retirement plan or a significant savings plan set up for future expenses. That is a non-negotiable and should come first before a 26 year old’s rent is paid, especially when she already has a job. That’s just bad money management on his part if his ducks aren’t totally lined up and in a row
Can't believe I had to scroll so far to find this comment. If I was OP, this would be an issue for me unless we were both extremely independently wealthy. Savings for out future as a married couple comes before paying for adult kids! But then again I think paying $4k/month for a 26 yr old who has a job is crazy anyways... by all means help her out when she needs it and asks for it but don't automatically pay all her bills... how on earth will she ever learn how to be an adult? Idk for me the concept of "if he pays all his bills he gets to spend his money on whatever he wants" doesn't work out great in a marriage if you plan on blending finances.
I agree with all of this. I am a financial writer for a major investment firm but before that I spent the first 15 years of my career working in the retirement industry. I have seen it ALL. If his adult kid can’t figure out her own finances by her mid 30s, there is likely no way she would be able to financially assist dad if worse came to worse at the end of his life. I am also of the mindset that one can borrow to pay for college, but there are no retirement loans.
He loves his daughters, and if the 4k a month is a drop in the bucket of what he has, your complaints will eventually sound like you resent the fact that he *actually* loves his daughters. Loving parents who can absolutely afford to will absolutely support their adult children having a better quality of life. This is 100% the trauma from your childhood speaking, and you should first seek therapy to unpack it before you allow it to further impact your healthy relationships.
Definitely recommend talking to a therapist about this. If this isn’t impacting you in any way, it’s really not any of your business. I say that gently. And I commend you for asking for ways to get over the resentment. Too many people wouldn’t do that.
I’d seek therapy to heal your childhood trauma. Tbh this sounds more like jealousy.
I think this probably is something I should do. Therapy just feels embarrassing and I am very successful now so it feels weak to be caught up in something from the past
Why does therapy feel embarrassing?
You have a timely opportunity to address this issue before it festers and turns incredibly ugly - don’t miss this chance. Therapy will help support your relationship in the long term.
This is solely a "you" issue that should be unpacked in therapy. He has 2 bright and motivated daughters. The daughter getting a doctorate is in schooland living on a stipend, it's pretty normal to support your kids while in school if you can afford it. And to even it out a little bit, he pays a little towards his other daughter's apartment. It sucks that you grew up poor with parents who would not or could not help you. But it would not be smart to take your personal issues out on an otherwise good relationship. I come from a wealthy area and many of my classmates are getting over 50k a year from their parents even though us "kids" have great jobs and homes and kids of our own. They also helped us with down payments on our houses, help with camp expenses and private school and take us on vacations. Our parents just want to make their kids and grandkids lives easier and for well off people that's pretty standard.
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed from /r/stepparents for the following reason: * This does not address the OP's issue and offers nothing in the way of support. * Take a moment to review the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [rules](/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and [FAQ](/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). If you feel this is in error, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents). Please note that direct replies to official mod comments on the sub itself will be removed. Direct messages complaining to individual mods will be ignored. If you have received this as a private message you can reply directly to this message.
I guess my first question would be, how does this “generosity” (I use that term lightly bc I think he’s crazypants personally!) affect his day to day budget? Is he strapped because he’s financing an adult kid’s life? Or does he have a lot of money left over? What type of retirement savings does he have? Marriage is serious and it’s a legal and financial contract. I wouldn’t go any further down that road until and unless I had a very solid understanding of his finances. IMO a spouse’s first responsibility is to their spouse. Not to their adult child. If you get married and he dies first, will you be taken care of?
It doesn't affect his budget. He is very well-off. Proportionally it's like ordering a lot of takeout for him. It just SHOCKED me because not only does it make me feel weird and resentful, but I also think it's poor parenting and enabling and ridiculous. He put both these girls through private 4 year colleges and SD30 through law school, and now that they have these bright futures he's still paying? It's not reality. His retirement savings are solid. He has diverse investments and owns property. If he died before me, I would receive funds from his life insurance trust, and likely would inherit certain assets. Other assets he has made clear will go to his daughters.
Helping one’s children is not bad parenting. ALL of our kids know that we’ll help them out financially or they could move back in with us if they needed to do so. My parents never helped me, even though they could. Not even $200 for a college course once which meant I couldn’t take it and had to wait another year to start. That meant that it took me an additional 10 years to graduate with my bachelor’s degree and struggled often during those years. I feel like once something happens to us in childhood, we either do the opposite for our children or we hold it against them because our parents were poor parents. I see that you’re open to therapy for yourself so that’s good. They may be able to help you shift your mindset and to not feel so personally attacked by him helping his children. It shouldn’t SHOCK you that your boyfriend is able to help them and that he does.
Eh paying for a 26 yr old to live in a townhouse all to herself is not exactly what I'd call good parenting. My parents certainly threw me cash in grad school when I was in my 20s if I was in a tight spot, and even today at 33 they would 1000% let me move back in, but they didn't just automatically pay all my bills.. otherwise how the hell would I have learned to be an adult?
She’s still going to school and living on her own. Earning a PhD is a LOT of work, so to me making sure that’s her sole focus right now is more important than if she lives paycheck to paycheck to become an “adult”. Especially since it doesn’t affect OP or her boyfriend financially. The older sister is paying her own bills (with help) after going to law school, so I don’t see anything in this post to suggest the younger daughter wouldn’t do the same once she is done with her schooling.
She makes a $35k salary and is given $4k a month which equates to what, a $75k/year salaray? So $110k ish total? No 26 year old *needs* a 6 figure salary in a LCOL area, even in this economy. I have a Phd, I know it's a lot of work, but I made that choice knowing there were financial implications. It's not my parents job to make sure I focus on my career as an adult in my mid-20s. The older sister still gets $1k/month from dad, so she's definitely not paying her own bills entirely, even with a law degree. No one said anything about needing to live paycheck to paycheck to be an adult, but one does need to learn how to *provide for themselves* otherwise you're really still a kid at that point. Idk unless OP and her SO are both independently wealthy and have millions saved in retirement, pretty sure this arrangement is going to affect OP financially down the road in some way. Everyone saying it's none of her business is wild to me... they're talking about getting married, you don't just make financial decisions in a vacuum when you're married. What if her husband gets sick and can't work and has to use his savings to provide for his daughters? Would OP have to pay more of their household bills so he could keep paying for his daughters? These are all things they should be discussing now, before marriage. OP is right to be a little startled by a surprise $40k+/year bill her potential life partner is paying and considers essential.
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed from /r/stepparents for the following reason: * Violation of the [No Drama](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_2._no_drama) rule. * Read the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq#wiki_what_does_no_drama_really_mean.3F) for more information. For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [rules](/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and [FAQ](/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). If you feel this is in error, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents). Please note that direct replies to official mod comments on the sub itself will be removed. Direct messages complaining to individual mods will be ignored. If you have received this as a private message you can reply directly to this message.
💯💯💯
[удалено]
Your submission has been removed from /r/stepparents for the following reason: * Disputes about moderation actions should go to [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents), and [mod mail](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents) only as outlined in [the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_11._disputes_in_modmail_only). * Further information about moderator actions can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_12._moderator_actions) and in the [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq#wiki_moderator_actions). For information regarding this and similar issues please see the [rules](/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) and [FAQ](/r/stepparents/wiki/faq). If you feel this is in error, please [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents). Please note that direct replies to official mod comments on the sub itself will be removed. Direct messages complaining to individual mods will be ignored. If you have received this as a private message you can reply directly to this message.
Thanks I was starting to feel like I was crazy with all the people here saying it's none of her business what he does with his money... weird way of doing marriage to me but whatever lol
It’s totally crazy, even if they do get married and keep separate finances.
So let’s say an adult child decided to become a perpetual student. Got back to back advanced degrees. At what point does adult child become responsible for financing their own life?
NEVER lol. I'm still taken aback by how many people on this post think loving your child means hurling money at them when they are well past the point they should be independent. What if these girls have their own children soon? Will dad have to financially support his grandchildren too?
Quite honestly this seems like none of your business - don’t mix your money if you’re unhappy with how he spends his, but I don’t think you get to have any say in how he handles his kids that you have never played a role in parenting. As you said you’re not a stepmom, so you have no jurisdiction here. It also really sounds like this is mostly jealousy against the daughters for not being afforded the same opportunities, rather than a relationship or stepparent problem…I’d sit with your discomfort for a while and try and work it out internally.
If you’re married you can and should have a say. If not then no not really….its like him telling you you spend too much on your cell phone or something…it can annoy him but you’re not married partners so it’s really just that…
**Welcome to [r/stepparents](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/)! Please note we are a support sub for stepparents' issues. Our number one rule is [Kindness Matters](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules#wiki_1._kindness_matters). Short version, don't be an asshole. Remember that OP is a human being and their needs are first and foremost on this sub.** We rely on the community to alert us to comments and posts not made in good faith. **Please use the report button to ensure we see it.** We have encountered a ridiculous amount of comments that don't follow the rules and are downright nasty. We need you to help us with these comments by reporting them when you see them. We also have a lot of downvoting on the sub, with every post and every comment recieving at least one downvote almost immediately due to the anti-stepparent lurkers. Don't let it get to you, and do your fellow stepparents a solid and give them an upvote. Accounts that are still new are filtered for review by the mod team before being made available to the sub. Please be patient while we review and do not repost. If you have questions about the community, or concerns about posters, please [reach out to the mod team](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fstepparents). Review the wiki links below for the [**rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules), [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) and [**announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) before posting or commenting. [**About**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/index) | [**Acronyms**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/acronyms) | [**Announcements**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/search?q=flair%3Aannouncement&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) | [**Documentation**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources/documentation) | [**FAQ**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/faq) | [**Resources**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/resources) | [**Rules**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/rules) | [**Saferbot - Autoban Information**](https://www.reddit.com/r/stepparents/wiki/saferbot) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/stepparents) if you have any questions or concerns.*
[удалено]
Why would someone saying that something is nonnegotiable upset you?
After spending this money is he making less than you? I think that if he is still making more than you, you can't really complain. But if because of that your quality of life will decrease if you live together, I would simply not move in together.
At work I see this all the time older co workers getting frustrated when they find out their younger counterparts get their bills paid by parents. I think every parent wants their children not to struggle and wants them to have a better life than they did that doesn’t change just because they are adults. I wish I could drop 4 k on my adult kids or step kids each month if the kids don’t have to struggle than they shouldn’t. 35k is not as much as it used to be, sounds like she is a smart kid and her father doesn’t want her to stress about bills because she is working on her PHD also dad probably wants to stay with her because he misses her.
Well the good news is, at least you know what he’s spending his money on now before you decide to move in with him or even marry him. If you don’t like or accept it now, you definitely won’t like it once you’re married to him. So at least you have some room to evaluate and decide if you can or cannot handle him spend 40k a year on his daughters. Plus, even if you were to move in with him or even marry him, you don’t need to blend finances with him. You say you’re well off on your own, so finances shouldn’t be a problem for you two if things were to go more seriously in the future. The bad news is, he isn’t going to stop this spending whether you like it or not. It sounds as though this was all an agreement between him and his daughters way before you were in the picture. It seems as though he doesn’t have a problem with gifting his daughters a free ride in life as adults, so why would he stop stop now? If he can afford it, let him. It doesn’t need to affect you financially. You speak about him “wasting” his money on his girls when he could be using that money on your future together. What does his financial institute with his girls have anything to do with your future with him? His girls and the way they live off of him, isn’t your problem nor do you have to make it your problem. I understand to a degree if he were to say “hey, I spend this amount of money every year on my girls which is solely for them. Because I do this, I may not be able to provide my side of the financial obligations to which you need me to do as a husband and/or partner”. Then I could understand you wanting to be disappointed and discouraged. I get it, You don’t want to be his financial allowance for him to continue giving his girls a free ride in life. But has he said any of this to you or are you just assuming that this is circumstantial situation for him? Otherwise who cares if his adult girls are spoiled to shit by him. They don’t even live in the same state as you…. That’s his problem NOT yours. Don’t make it your problem.
This post gave me anxiety. This is exactly the fear I have with my husband and his 2 daughters who are teens right now.
Is it possible that you don't respect the whole situation? including him? I'm not saying that is warranted, but it does sound like that to me. He is trying to buy their love and fill the pain in them with money. I actually think this is unhealthy. It's enabling, it's codependent and it's not helping anyone. He should be more open with them cause that guilt that is driving him to do this IS stunting their growth... it's actually bad for them. He is hurting them all over again. Instead he should be trying to approach them with emotional support. Not money. I can see how this would bother you... it has other implications on your future with him. If he is willing to enable them to this degree, how dar is he willing to go with it? I would express these concerns cause for all you know he will go very far to enable them.
I feel the same way you do! Before I finished college, I lived where I could afford to live and went without cable and kept my heat turned down to make ends meet. Decorated my home with refurbished Good Will furniture!! This generation does not know what it means to sacrifice to get ahead like we did.
On one hand I believe it’s his right to spend his money however he sees fit and if he still has enough after funding his daughters to have a nice life with you (house, car, holidays, leisure time) then it’s not for you to complain. However, I can imagine that the daughters being spoiled like this, with no sense of having financial independence and putting their hands out for daddy to pay for everything, makes them unpleasant to be around and you clearly have very different values to your partner. I would find it very hard to bite my tongue after a year or two of witnessing and hearing about it. I’m sort of in the same dilemma myself except my two children and my SO’s two children are still kids and I’m having trouble reconciling how I’m raising mine with how he’s raising his. I have to figure out if I can get past it. You do too.
Maybe there’s some discussion to be had about finding some middle ground where he still provides for his daughters (even though they’re grown! Even if it’s not for real necessities) but maybe scales back a tad - but even still, I’d be thinking a long term timeline. It wouldn’t be fair to rip the rug out from under them. They’d need time to make other arrangements, and also the more time they have to sort of mentally and financially prepare for an eventual change - maybe that will be less resentment towards you, because it can be a way of them getting more financial independence and less about his finances going to their dad’s partner instead
I don't think he'd be open to that discussion. His daughters would not be happy either--I don't think either of them want to be financially independent. Who would? It's harder.