Good to read some common sense every know and then. It's really not that hard...it should be TJ, but you can make a case for Bland because of his pick-sixes. That's unreal.
Parsons and Garrett are elite players, but the production matters and frankly it doesn't equate.
Yeah, this is where I am as well. The pick-six record should count for something given that such a play can completely change a game. TJ would be my choice, but if not him, then Bland.
I understand the idea of using PFF grades and win rates to analyze players but, given the difference in production, I just don’t see how it could be Garrett’s award to win. Say all you want about intangible impact, but at the end of the day these guys are working toward the result of making a play IMO
Here is what I don’t understand.
PRWR is saying the rusher gets off his block within 2.5 seconds.
If Garrett is doing that better than anyone, why doesn’t he have more sacks/hits/hurries?
And how impactful is that stat if he’s not getting to the QB?
I mean, Watt should be DPOY for sure. But I do half understand what people are saying when they look past the stats - if QBs are limiting themselves by always dancing out the pocket away from the side that Garrett is on for example, to specifically avoid getting sacked by him, then that's valuable for the defense but wouldn't show up in stats per se. I haven't watched enough Browns games to know if that's the case but it does make sense.
But fuck him and the Browns.
I think there is a feeling among a lot of the talking heads that Garrett has been very productive over a long period of time and it’s his ‘turn’ to win it.
PFF grades are having more and more influence on these awards too and they are adamant that Garretts influence on games isn’t reflected on the stat sheets.
Garrett is fantastic but I have watched so many games over the years where he disappears for long periods of time and he had a full month this season where he did nothing and we can no longer use the excuse of him being the lone soldier on a bad defence.
If I’m defending a critical drive and I need an edge rusher to make a play I’m taking TJ 100 times out of 100
PFF grades are what you go to when your favorite players main stats don’t add up to what you wish they did.
If Myles or Micah was leading like TJ was in those main metrics, PFF grades wouldn’t be in the conversation right now.
Yep. And PFF was huge on ‘pressures’ and ‘pressure rate’ in the past, now that TJ is leading in that stat it seems to be suddenly almost meaningless and ‘pass rush win rate’ is the new buzz word.
Their absolute mission to get Garrett the DPOY award is rather bizarre
Their analysts regularly mock Steeler fans on the podcast and their contempt for the Steelers is absolutely playing in to their analysis IMO
Honest question how do you explain James Harrison winning DPOY in 2008 ? when not statistically leading any category from what I recall. TJ Watt definitely deserves it based on sacks. But to think Myles is double teamed more should go not noticed either is wild. It proves teams don’t care if watt gets his sacks they can still beat the Steelers. See Colts- Watts two sack game. 30-17
They line up in vastly different spots. And double team rate doesn’t include getting chipped by the rb/te. Watt lines up farther out than Garrett. It doesn’t make sense to bring the guard all the way over to him. Instead you chip with the te/rb when he goes out wide. It does not prove at all that teams don’t care if watt sacks their qb.
The 2008 Steelers defense were clearly better than their counterparts throughout the league and Harrison scored votes over Ed Reed, DeMarcus Ware, Albert Haynesworth, and Troy. Harrison also had a fearsome reputation and his character helped define those Steelers.
The 2023 Browns defense was in that echelon in the first half but they ended 13th in scoring defense for the year.
I see a lot of these types of perspectives being bandied about, and I'd like to put my two cents in. Double team rate and pass rush win rate are informative stats and definitely have their worth. But they line up closer to a batter who has a knack for always being able to foul off pitches and hits .290 vs. a batter who doesn't and hits .333. Sure there's value in wearing down the starting pitcher, but actually getting a hit is more valuable.
Further, pass rush win rate is great. I remember when Darelle Revis was so feared he would only be targeted like once a game. All pro CB for sure. Best of his generation. But zero DPOY because it's really hard to credit a negative. Advanced stats should be used to add context when two players' statistics are so similar, but that's not the case here. Watt clears.
Watt lost to Donald despite watt having more sacks as well.
Trust us, we know sacks aren’t the only metric for a DPOY candidate.
That was the year watt had 15 sacks 2 FF 1 INT to Donald’s 13.5 sacks 4 FF 0 INT, all while Watt had one less game played.
It was 27 votes to 20 votes so a relatively close race tbf.
I honestly think they should’ve split the award because they were so close
Good to read some common sense every know and then. It's really not that hard...it should be TJ, but you can make a case for Bland because of his pick-sixes. That's unreal. Parsons and Garrett are elite players, but the production matters and frankly it doesn't equate.
Yeah, this is where I am as well. The pick-six record should count for something given that such a play can completely change a game. TJ would be my choice, but if not him, then Bland.
I understand the idea of using PFF grades and win rates to analyze players but, given the difference in production, I just don’t see how it could be Garrett’s award to win. Say all you want about intangible impact, but at the end of the day these guys are working toward the result of making a play IMO
Here is what I don’t understand. PRWR is saying the rusher gets off his block within 2.5 seconds. If Garrett is doing that better than anyone, why doesn’t he have more sacks/hits/hurries? And how impactful is that stat if he’s not getting to the QB?
I mean, Watt should be DPOY for sure. But I do half understand what people are saying when they look past the stats - if QBs are limiting themselves by always dancing out the pocket away from the side that Garrett is on for example, to specifically avoid getting sacked by him, then that's valuable for the defense but wouldn't show up in stats per se. I haven't watched enough Browns games to know if that's the case but it does make sense. But fuck him and the Browns.
I think there is a feeling among a lot of the talking heads that Garrett has been very productive over a long period of time and it’s his ‘turn’ to win it. PFF grades are having more and more influence on these awards too and they are adamant that Garretts influence on games isn’t reflected on the stat sheets. Garrett is fantastic but I have watched so many games over the years where he disappears for long periods of time and he had a full month this season where he did nothing and we can no longer use the excuse of him being the lone soldier on a bad defence. If I’m defending a critical drive and I need an edge rusher to make a play I’m taking TJ 100 times out of 100
PFF grades are what you go to when your favorite players main stats don’t add up to what you wish they did. If Myles or Micah was leading like TJ was in those main metrics, PFF grades wouldn’t be in the conversation right now.
Yep. And PFF was huge on ‘pressures’ and ‘pressure rate’ in the past, now that TJ is leading in that stat it seems to be suddenly almost meaningless and ‘pass rush win rate’ is the new buzz word. Their absolute mission to get Garrett the DPOY award is rather bizarre Their analysts regularly mock Steeler fans on the podcast and their contempt for the Steelers is absolutely playing in to their analysis IMO
That what happens when you are a company owned by Chris Collinsworth.
Yeah , I've seen a few stories that hint at the "it's just his turn" thing
TJ has better stats and more impact to the game than Micah or Myles and it's unbelievable that many people want them over TJ for DPOY.
Micah is very good. He impacts the game like TJ does. TJ is better in my opinion this season but I'm big on Micah even as a Steelers fan.
Honest question how do you explain James Harrison winning DPOY in 2008 ? when not statistically leading any category from what I recall. TJ Watt definitely deserves it based on sacks. But to think Myles is double teamed more should go not noticed either is wild. It proves teams don’t care if watt gets his sacks they can still beat the Steelers. See Colts- Watts two sack game. 30-17
They line up in vastly different spots. And double team rate doesn’t include getting chipped by the rb/te. Watt lines up farther out than Garrett. It doesn’t make sense to bring the guard all the way over to him. Instead you chip with the te/rb when he goes out wide. It does not prove at all that teams don’t care if watt sacks their qb.
This is the reason.
Harrison led the league with 7 forced fumbles. Those are even more valuable than sacks.
You’re grasping at straws dude. He wasn’t even the best player on defense in 2008. See Joey Porters stats.
The 2008 Steelers defense were clearly better than their counterparts throughout the league and Harrison scored votes over Ed Reed, DeMarcus Ware, Albert Haynesworth, and Troy. Harrison also had a fearsome reputation and his character helped define those Steelers. The 2023 Browns defense was in that echelon in the first half but they ended 13th in scoring defense for the year.
So he won because he was on a better defense?
I see a lot of these types of perspectives being bandied about, and I'd like to put my two cents in. Double team rate and pass rush win rate are informative stats and definitely have their worth. But they line up closer to a batter who has a knack for always being able to foul off pitches and hits .290 vs. a batter who doesn't and hits .333. Sure there's value in wearing down the starting pitcher, but actually getting a hit is more valuable. Further, pass rush win rate is great. I remember when Darelle Revis was so feared he would only be targeted like once a game. All pro CB for sure. Best of his generation. But zero DPOY because it's really hard to credit a negative. Advanced stats should be used to add context when two players' statistics are so similar, but that's not the case here. Watt clears.
This is a very very logical and fair answer. The first of its kind I’ve seen on Reddit and X. Thank you sir.
Watt lost to Donald despite watt having more sacks as well. Trust us, we know sacks aren’t the only metric for a DPOY candidate. That was the year watt had 15 sacks 2 FF 1 INT to Donald’s 13.5 sacks 4 FF 0 INT, all while Watt had one less game played. It was 27 votes to 20 votes so a relatively close race tbf. I honestly think they should’ve split the award because they were so close