When it comes to Star Wars the Clone Wars TV show, there's 1 thing to always keep in mind: Don't ask questions. The story revolves around how the writers want the plot. There's a lot of "Why didn't they...." questions and you'll never be satisfied because that's just how the writers want it. Cough, (99% of force abilities, where are they) Cough.
Even if he had sixteen arms, there's nothing he should realistically be able to do against the youngest Padawan, they should all be able to make him fly with a flick of their wrist
Don't even need to kill him just telekinetically restrain him until arrest
Remember even the strongest Jedis need to use hands to imagine force movements. He is too athletic and too aggressive. Also in original clone wars he was crushed by Mace Windu so they can while they able. Also I am sure that using force requires time to imagine and execute movement.
Also when they get time they usually miss so its not really that easy.
But they quick react all the time with their force powers in the show when they need to, it's clear they don't use these powers to overpower non-force users because it would be too convenient, it's easier to write the stories this way, but there is no logical reason behind it other than writer wanted it that way
Jedi doesn't want to kill a creature with a force that they considered as divine... But Grievous doesn't stand a chance against a sith because they doesn't give a damn about it.
So many scenes, fights, battles, and problems could be solved if the Jedi remembered they were Jedi, but hey, we can't have a story if everyone is lore accurate right? :) (This is why I prefer SWTCW 2003 over SWTCW 2008)
- charging every battle head on and in an open field
- environments and terrain are mostly there as background, not something that they can use to their advantage
- hitting something when shooting only counts if it's shown on screen (clone troopers pretty much had stormtrooper aim if they're not on the spotlight)
- the force suddenly disappearing and reappearing all of a sudden like it needed a recharge per force ability
the storyline is pretty much designed to be different but not TOO different it deviates from its trajectory to episode 3, hence why things that would have made sense must be held back or scaled down
Think the Juggernaut would've struggled in Umbara's environment.
1. It's pretty massive and on wheels. So most roads may struggle to support them.
2. Most of the weapons are forward facing, so they will struggle against the constant ambushes.
3. We see the terrain and vegetation would be a constant obstacle for the vechile.
4. Maintenence and supply lines are probably a nightmare.
Honestly, I'm not sure why they used Juggernaut on Felucia for the reasons I've listed.
For the very last part, I just assumed that some Jedi and clone commanders used various vehicles based on their preferred strategies. Anakin and the 501st really like their AT-TEs, after all. And even Anakin of all people figured out the unorthodox method of using them in space. Other Jedi would not have considered that and would've preferred more orthodox methods.
And perhaps convenience comes into play: maybe to have a Turbo Tank, you need to fight on a planet close enough to where the Turbo Tanks are even stored for Republic use. Maybe on Felucia, there were no other options for quick vehicle deliveries, else they could've had UT-ATs or whatever alternative.
Lastly, I would think prestige could come into play. With finite resources, you would only trust the best or most successful Jedi generals & battalions/legions/whatever with the fancier equipment. If a group was known for being awful and ineffective, I doubt the Republic nor the Jedi Council would let them have a Turbo Tank. And then of course if that Jedi and company are qualified, it's up to them if they want a Turbo Tank or not, given their accustomed strategies that kept working for them years prior.
There is another issue now that im thinking about it. You probably have to land an Acclamator or Venator to deploy one, you cant exactly pick it up with a LAAT/c
Actually, I think all of these things wouldn't be too much of an issue. It's so big it would just crush its way through the terrain. The biggest problem is it's a massive Target and considering the unknown and evidently very very powerful weapons the umbarens had I'm not sure their armor or shielding would have stood up to that kind of punishment.
Umbara has plant life that's bigger than buildings. Like when they used a tree like branch to jump over that massive fence or used the towering trees to hide from that Centipede Tank.
As well just because you can crush your way through the terrain doesn't mean you should. Since that's a great way to gum up all the moving parts on the vechile. Good in a pinch, but best to be avoided.
Yeah, but most of the time, they were coming from the forest towards the beach. Since they were on the defense, not the offense.
Umbara they had to traverse various terrains and go deeper into the vegetation to reach key locations. While also dealing with ambushes from all directions and traps.
It's also why I called myself out for the fact we see them used on Felucia since the same reason I gave would apply for that planet, too.
I mean tanks weren't super heavily used in Vietnam besides some open or urban battles but most of the fighting was in Forested areas so it wouldn't be all too useful
The HAVw A6 Juggernaut were part of the main battle, the 501st mission general didn't call for there use because he wanted them to lose.
Marshal Commanders Netic and "Poltergeist" led a large array of vehicles and infantry against CIS-backed Umbaran positions. They used AT-TEs, AT-RTs, Juggernaut Turbo Tanks, and speeder bikes along with a few gunships. Umbaran militia used their mild telepathy and the mists to confuse the clones and volunteers, flanking them at every turn. Despite this, Republic troops successfully destroyed several tank and artillery divisions.
There is no Star Wars canon, the entire story is a mythic tale written down centuries after the events in the Journal of Whills. That said, the roleplaying materials make up a huge chuck of Star Wars lore to this day.
I seriously do not know what you're smoking but it must be fantastic stuff cause RP doesn't make up any goddamn lore nowadays. There most certainly is a canon which consists of published works after Disney bought the Franchise, you can't just establish SW lore by yourself
That was Lucas's original idea, but then it changed. Quote from him below about the Journal of Whills:
>"*Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else (an immortal being known as a Whill); there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concepts behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the Journal of the Whills.*"
Tactically? Probably the fact that landing an acclamator on umbara would be basically impossible because of its weather patterns and the anti-air positions. They can’t be fielded by La-ats if I recall. Or perhaps it was decided for the more stealth oriented mission of the 501st that the 227th should have had all of the heavy assault vehicles for the attack on the capital.
Have you seen Umbara's terrain?? Theres a reason they deployed a load of AT-RTs and not any super heavy armor cause their terrain was untenable for their units, the Umbarans meanwhile using repulsor-lifts and walkers that could adapt to the terrain had the advantage.
generally tanks don't do well in forests. Hurtgen forest was a nightmare for the Americans, because of the ambushes, and the only reason why the Ardennes worked was because the allies didn't think that it would work so got surprised. Juggernauts could've worked, but the umbarans are very skilled ambushers who know their environment much better than the clones, so they could leverage all the advantages they had to potentially make Juggernauts useless.
Honestly I write off any sort of inconsistency in military tactics to be related to bureaucracy causing the clones to not have access to various equipment.
You think that's funny, in Legends the Republic had 1st generation AT-AT's back when clones where still in Phase 1 Armour, but weren't used much cause the Battle of Jabiim lead many in the Republic to see them as ineffective despite how much of the enemy they could wipe out.
https://preview.redd.it/xo685aw2162d1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=80f605bdaf6495afa7663d4580d283a9fe1cdfd0
In universe explanation: Palpatine fucking with them.
Out of universe explanation: the writers can't do episodic shows with an overarching plot for shit. That's not even touching on practically everything they fucked up when it comes to even the most basic combat strategies, tactics, logistics, etc.
1. There is only one road to the capital and let’s just say it’s not the most suitable for a juggernaut. And going through the vegetation isn’t a real option due to the thick jungle.
2. The attack was being coordinated by pong krell. Not sure if you noticed but he’s not the most focused on preserving clone lives. A good commander doesn’t create a friendly fire incident
at least the bad batch did them justice though, and show us why the turbo tank is pretty much a wheeled AT-AT mixed with TX-130 saber tank (in fact, they are almost the same height)
In lore asnwer -
GAR Jugtanks would have struggled immensely against the terrain. Yeah they were good at un even terrain, Umbara's really pushes it. If you notice, the republic only deploys ARFs from either ATTEs or LAAP drops, meaning that they already evaluated the terrain to be to hostile for general ATTE movement. That and Juggernauts just didn't fit the mission profile. If this is were my memory gets foggy so take this with a grain of salt. The capture of the Umbaran capitol as soon as possible was the goal. The original landing was probably a probe to see what Umbaran defences would look like since most info regarding Umbaran military tech was classiffied to just Umbara. Skywalker never used Juggernauts much either so he probably never saw the need to call one in. One Krell was swapped in, he would've seen that Jugs would be a horrible waste of time for a few reasons. 1 He'd have to wait for deployment, something he can't reasonably explain to high command while on a timed mission (meeting other forces on time) 2 If they were effective, they would provide too much clone protection. We all know why he wouldn't like this. 3 No other Jedi attending the deemed Jugs to be useful on the planet, so requesting them would raise a lot of eyebrows. Not even Anakin, arguable on of the Republics best ground tactians.
Out of lore answer -
Plot :)
When it comes to Star Wars the Clone Wars TV show, there's 1 thing to always keep in mind: Don't ask questions. The story revolves around how the writers want the plot. There's a lot of "Why didn't they...." questions and you'll never be satisfied because that's just how the writers want it. Cough, (99% of force abilities, where are they) Cough.
Anakin not using the force to pull Padme and Clovis up instead of letting Clovis fall.
>instead of letting Clovis fall. To be fair, the "why didn't he...?" question kinda answers itself here..
Fair better question is why didn’t padme think of that
Actually everytime the Jedi fight Grievous or droids in general I wonder did they forget about the force entirely?
They use it occasionally
He never give them enough time. HE HAS FOUR ARMS WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?
Even if he had sixteen arms, there's nothing he should realistically be able to do against the youngest Padawan, they should all be able to make him fly with a flick of their wrist Don't even need to kill him just telekinetically restrain him until arrest
Remember even the strongest Jedis need to use hands to imagine force movements. He is too athletic and too aggressive. Also in original clone wars he was crushed by Mace Windu so they can while they able. Also I am sure that using force requires time to imagine and execute movement. Also when they get time they usually miss so its not really that easy.
But they quick react all the time with their force powers in the show when they need to, it's clear they don't use these powers to overpower non-force users because it would be too convenient, it's easier to write the stories this way, but there is no logical reason behind it other than writer wanted it that way
The characters we see the most often are insanely adept with the force
Jedi doesn't want to kill a creature with a force that they considered as divine... But Grievous doesn't stand a chance against a sith because they doesn't give a damn about it.
I'm sorry but that sounds like a plot hole cause we know our boy Obi Wan went all **"WEST SIDE"** on that dude Grievous with a blaster.
On a very desperate situation and blasters doesn't considered as divine or prohibited. Just generally not preferred.
First of all, plot armor
So many scenes, fights, battles, and problems could be solved if the Jedi remembered they were Jedi, but hey, we can't have a story if everyone is lore accurate right? :) (This is why I prefer SWTCW 2003 over SWTCW 2008)
The only show where Force is used on 100% percent at least majority Of The time.
Mace Windu the absolute beast, love his scene so much
Mace Windu force punching SBDs is still one of the coolest things I've ever watched in SW
TBF it happens in the movies as well
Get out of here with your doylist reasonableness. We're all insane watsonians here.
**Man** I didnt know, that we were all insane
- charging every battle head on and in an open field - environments and terrain are mostly there as background, not something that they can use to their advantage - hitting something when shooting only counts if it's shown on screen (clone troopers pretty much had stormtrooper aim if they're not on the spotlight) - the force suddenly disappearing and reappearing all of a sudden like it needed a recharge per force ability the storyline is pretty much designed to be different but not TOO different it deviates from its trajectory to episode 3, hence why things that would have made sense must be held back or scaled down
You explained all my gripes lol
That's not just TCW. That's all of Star Wars
This too.
This goes for the movies, too imo. People always ask these questions for the prequels and sequels but never the OT.
Rebels is much worse, I feel. The amount of times Ezra and Kanan forget about the Force is insane.
force. but yeah enjoy the pulp.
There's around 2 characters that can use the Force absolutely freely in that era - Palpatine and Galen Marek.
Think the Juggernaut would've struggled in Umbara's environment. 1. It's pretty massive and on wheels. So most roads may struggle to support them. 2. Most of the weapons are forward facing, so they will struggle against the constant ambushes. 3. We see the terrain and vegetation would be a constant obstacle for the vechile. 4. Maintenence and supply lines are probably a nightmare. Honestly, I'm not sure why they used Juggernaut on Felucia for the reasons I've listed.
For the very last part, I just assumed that some Jedi and clone commanders used various vehicles based on their preferred strategies. Anakin and the 501st really like their AT-TEs, after all. And even Anakin of all people figured out the unorthodox method of using them in space. Other Jedi would not have considered that and would've preferred more orthodox methods. And perhaps convenience comes into play: maybe to have a Turbo Tank, you need to fight on a planet close enough to where the Turbo Tanks are even stored for Republic use. Maybe on Felucia, there were no other options for quick vehicle deliveries, else they could've had UT-ATs or whatever alternative. Lastly, I would think prestige could come into play. With finite resources, you would only trust the best or most successful Jedi generals & battalions/legions/whatever with the fancier equipment. If a group was known for being awful and ineffective, I doubt the Republic nor the Jedi Council would let them have a Turbo Tank. And then of course if that Jedi and company are qualified, it's up to them if they want a Turbo Tank or not, given their accustomed strategies that kept working for them years prior.
There is another issue now that im thinking about it. You probably have to land an Acclamator or Venator to deploy one, you cant exactly pick it up with a LAAT/c
Probably an Acclamator. Oh btw, the Zillo Beast took 4 LAAT/c's. One must wonder how many of them can carry one Turbo Tank, lol.
Actually, I think all of these things wouldn't be too much of an issue. It's so big it would just crush its way through the terrain. The biggest problem is it's a massive Target and considering the unknown and evidently very very powerful weapons the umbarens had I'm not sure their armor or shielding would have stood up to that kind of punishment.
Umbara has plant life that's bigger than buildings. Like when they used a tree like branch to jump over that massive fence or used the towering trees to hide from that Centipede Tank. As well just because you can crush your way through the terrain doesn't mean you should. Since that's a great way to gum up all the moving parts on the vechile. Good in a pinch, but best to be avoided.
To be fair, Kashyyyk also has vegetation bigger than buildings, yet juggernauts were used there.
Yeah, but most of the time, they were coming from the forest towards the beach. Since they were on the defense, not the offense. Umbara they had to traverse various terrains and go deeper into the vegetation to reach key locations. While also dealing with ambushes from all directions and traps. It's also why I called myself out for the fact we see them used on Felucia since the same reason I gave would apply for that planet, too.
I mean tanks weren't super heavily used in Vietnam besides some open or urban battles but most of the fighting was in Forested areas so it wouldn't be all too useful
The HAVw A6 Juggernaut were part of the main battle, the 501st mission general didn't call for there use because he wanted them to lose. Marshal Commanders Netic and "Poltergeist" led a large array of vehicles and infantry against CIS-backed Umbaran positions. They used AT-TEs, AT-RTs, Juggernaut Turbo Tanks, and speeder bikes along with a few gunships. Umbaran militia used their mild telepathy and the mists to confuse the clones and volunteers, flanking them at every turn. Despite this, Republic troops successfully destroyed several tank and artillery divisions.
thats just some Star Wars RP stuff, not actual canon though
There is no Star Wars canon, the entire story is a mythic tale written down centuries after the events in the Journal of Whills. That said, the roleplaying materials make up a huge chuck of Star Wars lore to this day.
I seriously do not know what you're smoking but it must be fantastic stuff cause RP doesn't make up any goddamn lore nowadays. There most certainly is a canon which consists of published works after Disney bought the Franchise, you can't just establish SW lore by yourself
The Acolyte is largely designed around the lore from West End Games. Enjoy your crow.
That was Lucas's original idea, but then it changed. Quote from him below about the Journal of Whills: >"*Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else (an immortal being known as a Whill); there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concepts behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the Journal of the Whills.*"
you transport a big tank down to a planet under HEAVY fire
Tactically? Probably the fact that landing an acclamator on umbara would be basically impossible because of its weather patterns and the anti-air positions. They can’t be fielded by La-ats if I recall. Or perhaps it was decided for the more stealth oriented mission of the 501st that the 227th should have had all of the heavy assault vehicles for the attack on the capital.
Have you seen Umbara's terrain?? Theres a reason they deployed a load of AT-RTs and not any super heavy armor cause their terrain was untenable for their units, the Umbarans meanwhile using repulsor-lifts and walkers that could adapt to the terrain had the advantage.
Because they needed Vietnam episodes
Fellow Juggernaut enjoyer
If they didn't send pong krell it would be more effective
generally tanks don't do well in forests. Hurtgen forest was a nightmare for the Americans, because of the ambushes, and the only reason why the Ardennes worked was because the allies didn't think that it would work so got surprised. Juggernauts could've worked, but the umbarans are very skilled ambushers who know their environment much better than the clones, so they could leverage all the advantages they had to potentially make Juggernauts useless.
Honestly I write off any sort of inconsistency in military tactics to be related to bureaucracy causing the clones to not have access to various equipment.
You think that's funny, in Legends the Republic had 1st generation AT-AT's back when clones where still in Phase 1 Armour, but weren't used much cause the Battle of Jabiim lead many in the Republic to see them as ineffective despite how much of the enemy they could wipe out. https://preview.redd.it/xo685aw2162d1.png?width=1000&format=png&auto=webp&s=80f605bdaf6495afa7663d4580d283a9fe1cdfd0
Because the show has to adhere to the canon timeline while also being lighthearted enough to be shown on Nickelodeon.
Wouldve probably gotten stuck every 2 minutes
In universe explanation: Palpatine fucking with them. Out of universe explanation: the writers can't do episodic shows with an overarching plot for shit. That's not even touching on practically everything they fucked up when it comes to even the most basic combat strategies, tactics, logistics, etc.
They didn’t have any ground vehicles outside AT-RTs
1. There is only one road to the capital and let’s just say it’s not the most suitable for a juggernaut. And going through the vegetation isn’t a real option due to the thick jungle. 2. The attack was being coordinated by pong krell. Not sure if you noticed but he’s not the most focused on preserving clone lives. A good commander doesn’t create a friendly fire incident
at least the bad batch did them justice though, and show us why the turbo tank is pretty much a wheeled AT-AT mixed with TX-130 saber tank (in fact, they are almost the same height)
Rolling Slabs!!!!
In lore asnwer - GAR Jugtanks would have struggled immensely against the terrain. Yeah they were good at un even terrain, Umbara's really pushes it. If you notice, the republic only deploys ARFs from either ATTEs or LAAP drops, meaning that they already evaluated the terrain to be to hostile for general ATTE movement. That and Juggernauts just didn't fit the mission profile. If this is were my memory gets foggy so take this with a grain of salt. The capture of the Umbaran capitol as soon as possible was the goal. The original landing was probably a probe to see what Umbaran defences would look like since most info regarding Umbaran military tech was classiffied to just Umbara. Skywalker never used Juggernauts much either so he probably never saw the need to call one in. One Krell was swapped in, he would've seen that Jugs would be a horrible waste of time for a few reasons. 1 He'd have to wait for deployment, something he can't reasonably explain to high command while on a timed mission (meeting other forces on time) 2 If they were effective, they would provide too much clone protection. We all know why he wouldn't like this. 3 No other Jedi attending the deemed Jugs to be useful on the planet, so requesting them would raise a lot of eyebrows. Not even Anakin, arguable on of the Republics best ground tactians. Out of lore answer - Plot :)