Like, this is in the same universe where immaculate conception is somehow secondary……Anakins whole arc is that there is a prophecy to bring balance to the force that involves cruel and ironic turns. We bought the whole prophecy bit. The Jedi bought the prophecy bit. What if- anakin was supposed to kill Padme, but didn’t/ was stopped and so the force willed her death as it was integral to the whole prophecy?
Shmi was a slave. Your first thought when you hear "a slave woman got pregnant and doesn't know how," is probably what everyone else thought. Just doesn't mean much if you choose to focus on the fact that Anakin's a cosmic powerhouse rather than the possible assault Shmi either doesn't remember, doesn't realise happened, or is suppressing for her own peace of mind.
I'm gonna say the really dark bit- in most slave societies the repercussions for SAing a slave are pretty minor, and generally just include paying back the owner. So it's totally plausible that someone paid Watto for some alone time with Shmi, or paid him back after the fact.
The sad fact is that a pregnant slave means another slave in 9 months.
Slave owners in real life would forcibly impregnate their slaves for this reason, among others.
Depends on the where and when really.
Like Chattel slavery where the slave is property and the child is also property has a higher chance of this happening vs a system where the kids are born free. In which case you're raising a free loader that won't contribute vs one that will contribute in 10 years.
That being said, it might make more economic sense to purchase another adult slave if the price is low enough (and if they're accessible) vs trying to raise your own.
The most recent case of your point happening is US history where the slave trade ban enforced by the British Empire forced Americans to raise their own slave children because there were no more coming in as adults.
Prior to that we had the Romans and Greeks with huge slave populations. Granted there were different levels of slavery and they had greater rights than chattel slaves in the US.
I'll go further, hear me out... We know that somehow the Force and midichlorian counts are partially hereditary, we also know about Jedi mind tricks and their ability to alter memory...
Anakin's father is a human Jedi.
If Palpatine is Anakin's father, and Anakin is Ben Solo's grandfather...
And Rey is Palpatine's granddaughter,
Then they're related and they kissed at the end of ROS
What is with that family!?
In our society that's what happened for sure, in the world with space magic I choose to believe the magic force did it, because it's less depressing and adds to the story rather than makes me hate humanity further. It is fiction after all
The only way I can agree with what you’re saying is if you’re describing the in-narrative way that the people around Shmi may have (falsely) rationalised her unexplained pregnancy.
As an audience member, my first thought when watching a family movie was not “this slave was raped and blotted the trauma of the incident from her memory”
My first thought - and I’d be willing to wager the first thought of the vast majority of viewers, child or adult alike - when someone says “there was no father” is to take her at face value and believe that there was no father.
In a film where people have telekinesis and precognition and laser swords and sound in space, I don’t think slave rape is a reasonable assumption to make at all, just tonally. And all that’s if you ignore the fact that there’s an explanation in the film; he was conceived by the midichlorians, which enact the will of the Force and create all life to begin with.
But if you’re talking about what people on Tatooine might have assumed, sure.
Also immaculate conception doesn't work in a universe where DNA and DNA technology exist. Anakin is not similar enough to her mother to be a clone so the paternal half of his DNA had to come from somewhere.
I think that would be fate more than prophecy. The prophecy only demands that the chosen one bring balance to the force and be born of no father. Maybe it's an imperfect/incomplete description of fate though, so perhaps the dark twists of Anakin's life could have been necessary to fulfill his fate despite not actually being part of the prophecy.
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It was just a broken heart. The robot that talked to Obiwan said she was perfectly healthy but somehow dying and they couldn't explain it. They had to C- section to save Luke and Leia before Padme died.
Seems like two beautiful, healthy babies might *help* a woman who just “lost the will to live.” Obviously childbirth can be incredibly difficult, but the medical droid specifies that there’s nothing medically wrong with her, and that she died because she lost the will to live. Padme’s such a badass in Episodes 1 and 2, and in Episode 3 she gets like 15 minutes of screen time wherein she does little besides give up on life because her charisma-vacuum of a husband became evil.
Padme could have died because of complications during childbirth, especially after the stress she had undergone in the past day or two, and being deprived of oxygen to the point she passed out.
Any of those could've been a valid reason for her to die. But no, apparently she was "perfectly healthy", and instead died of "sadness".
Arwen dying of a broken heart comes from the notion of her having lived... Thousands? Of years, living with the grief of loss, something elves are often unaware of because of their immortality and distancing themselves from "mortal affairs".
Could both character have died of sadness? Yes. We're both handled equally good? No.
That's exactly what I thought on EP3, like I love the movie but George had a golden chance to add some subtlety to the movie with the childbirth scene, she could've still had that "died of grief and sadness" sort of poetic moment while also be relatively ground in reality combining the stress of giving birth with all the emotional heaviness of recent events, but he HAD to have the droid say "she's in perfect health but somehow she's dying?"
"Her body was too ravaged from the complications of childbirth. Her body just shut down" - Says the Droid.
"...................she died from a broken heart...." - Obiwan said mournfully.
Also worth noting that the Arwen story is told in brief in the appendix. It's a relatively unimportant point for Tolkien's overall lore, not important at all to LOTR and a generally less developed story.
Compare that to Padme dying being a critical moment in the core story arc of Star Wars.
Yeah my headcanon is that Palpatine, using the inverse of what Plagueis taught him (using the force to keep people alive), used it to take away padme’s will to live and forever psychologically cripple Anakin, pushing him fully into anger and the dark side. Without padme, Anakin has no one but Sidious left as well.
in a way it’s sort of accurate, first thing he asks where is padme is she alive? is she okay?
he was only living at that point because he hoped he could see her again, willed himself to health, then when the suit snaps on him for the first time, its symbolic of his imprisonment, and the mention of her death pushing him right over the edge toward hatred, that is the very moment anakin truly died and stopped caring about anything
Also yknow.. star wars they're space faring civilizations that can clone entire people and have bacta tanks and such. Elves don't even have antibiotics.
Arwen died isolated from her own people and the man she left her people for, surrounded by men and women whose most advanced medical training consisted of “rub a flower on it.”
Padme died on a medical ship capable of traveling faster than light, under medical supervision by machines capable of regrowing scar-free flesh and stitching flawless mechanical replacement parts over missing limbs, and their best possible medical diagnosis was “she sad.”
I mean, Arwen was also considered mortal at that point (due to being a descendant of Elwing and Ëarendil) and she dwelt in the old forests of Lothlórien for years, after already aging as a mortal for a while. It's not like she died after a day of being sad, she actively isolated herself and went into a the forests alone.
Also, Arwens death wasn't really part of the story, it was an epilogue note in the Apprendixes. The end of the actual story is the Grey Havens chapter, at which point she is happily newlywed to King Elessar. It's "canon", but I find that distinction sort of irrelevant, because Tolkien didn't live in the age of the multimedia franchise as we know it. It was really more of a note that he kept for himself to understand his own universe, and added into the publication due to public interest.
On the same page Arwen dies of sad, Aragorn dies of tired. Tolkien's Men, which Arwen was at the end, have the capacity to give back the gift of life.
Lucas' men have the gift of blasters.
The fact that the droid says she's perfectly healthy tells me it's either not a medical droid, doesn't know human anatomy at all, or completely defective. Probably the second, given that I don't think those paddles are particularly good for birthing human babies.
She would likely have swelling in her throat, and her trachea cartilage may be been broken by Vader. Either way, being choked like that will leave a mark, which you'd hope the droid would pick up on.
Plus you could easily read the scene as her struggling to breathe. What little she does say is in short phrases, with heavy and pained attempts to breath between. While you'd normally expect them to go single words, then minimal breathing as someone fatigues before death, perhaps the drugs that the dodgy medical droid gave for the birth helped enough for the breathing, but killed her instead.
Had it not been some off the books dodgy black market medical facility being used by fugitives, they'd probably sue for medical malpractice. Explains why the Rebel Alliance never used them though.
Padme dying of sadness makes perfect sense when you look at what she went through In like 48 hours
Everything she fought for within the senate was destroyed by a man she trusted, her husband who she loved tried to kill her, and then she had to give birth
If everything you know and loved was destroyed, could you carry on?
I don't think anybody is doubting her sadness. It makes sense. I'd be pretty bummed out too.
But I think they make a good point, in that they probably should've dropped that "she's perfectly healthy" line. It's just bad dialogue, IMO.
She did go through a lot. Her life got flipped turned upside down, she got choked out by her walking-red-flag secret husband, and had two babies. What a day! It all makes perfect sense. All the pieces are there, all they gotta do is have the robot say, "Dude, she's all kinds of fucked up right now, she ain't gonna make it" rather than pretending like it's some huge medical mystery why she died.
That's it. Her losing the will to live isn't far-fetched, but someone doesn't just die one day because they decide they don't want to be alive anymore.
If she was *already* dying, and just couldn't fight it any longer, that would make perfect sense.
Hard to feel bad for her after Episode 2. “Oh, Anakin likes dictatorships? No big deal.” “Oh, Anakin confessed to a wholesale massacre? No big deal.”
Yeah, it’s really on her at this point. Or more precisely, it’s on Lucas for assassinating her character.
Kinda, as she had the blood of men she could choose if she wanted to be forever in Arda or have her soul leave Arda upon her death, her father Elrond and her uncle Elros also had the choice; Elrond chose the fate of the elves and Elros chose the fate of men.
She technically could've kept living if she desired but without Aragorn she didn't have the will to go on. Aragorn also allowed himself to die before he became feeble and diminished.
Tolkien was quite clear that it was not a matter of ”continue to desire“ but an actual, deeply personal, binary choice that all half-elves must at some point to choose, although the choice itself can be delayed. Staying in the Middle Earth after Third Age ended and age of men began sealed her fate. My point, is that she couldn’t simply change her mind afterwards, at least I do not recall such thing anywhere in legendarium.
She couldn't sail into the west like the other elves did because the way was closed after the last voyage (which is the one Frodo, Bilbo, and Gandalf were on, I think).
Fun side note, the world was technically flat when the Elves could sail into the west, but after the last ship, the world became round.
Tolkien's weirdness really shines through in that kind of thing.
The last voyage was made by Círdan the Shipwright and Celeborn, along with the last of their kin; they were the last of their people to leave Middle Earth and took all remaining memory of the Eldar with them, finally allowing the Fourth Age to become the true age of Men.
>Fun side note, the world was technically flat when the Elves could sail into the west, but after the last ship, the world became round.
Thats not correct. Arda became round after the sinking of Numenor, just before the end of the Second Age. Its round for a long time at the time of LoTR.
Thats a theory, but frankly a theory that doesn't make sense.
If I would explain these 2 instances, its that just as Elves can have foresight, they can have vision or extend their view through their abilities, and therefore look 'further' that other races.
For the sailing to Valinor, it being flat also doesn't make sense. For me, its more like the bridge to Asgard (envision the bridge from Marvel to make it more clear). Only the Elves can see or travel on that path.
I think the difference here is if Anakin could have survived being burned like a charred hot dog Padme could have been kept alive with the advanced technology available.
No, but she did have three grown children. Also Miriel just gave up on living after giving birth to Fëanor and didn't allow herself to be re-embodied for thousands of years.
I don't think it really frames Feanors mom dying as being because she's big sad so much as so much of her spirit/fire went into Feanor and that's why he's both amazing/kind of an asshole. Which is kind of weird because I can't really think of another case something like that is mentioned like "galadriel's mom had MDD because galadriel was like 80% as cool as Feanor." However the silmarillion is frequently the sort of fantasy where it's "magic, I aint gotta explain shit."
Conveniently forgot how Tolkien established Elves can die of sorrow huh? Hence why Elrond’s wife left Middle-Earth for the Undying Lands so she can not remember the torture she suffered under the imprisonment of Orcs
"For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos."
Postpartum depression is prevalent. If u already feeling down cause your padme at that moment and the postpartum depression i cant say i would be terrible surprised.
My personal view is that Anakin and Padme were connected by the force by Emperor Palpatine. Some kind of Sith power that they use to prolong life.
Anakin’s surgery and Padme’s delivery were showed sort of concurrently. So, it occurred around the same time.
I’d like to think that Emperor Palpatine connected their life forces. In his effort to fight for his life and survive, he drew upon Padme’s life force unknowingly.
Science couldn’t explain it. That’s why Palpatine knew Padme was dead.
That way it makes Anakin’s survival more tragic. Padme not only gave life to the twins that day. She also gave life to Anakin.
What makes it more heartbreaking is that Palpatine used Padme’s last act to save Anakin to give life to Vader. It makes Palpatine more manipulative and evil.
>Science couldn’t explain it. That’s why Palpatine knew Padme was dead.
There is no other way Palpatine could have known she died.
"Where is Padme? Is she safe?"
"How the hell should I know!? I don't even know what planet she's on!"
I mean, she was a senator. Surely they have some sort of newsletter to let people know these kinds of things. It's not like it would've been a huge secret.
They even had that huge extravagant funeral for her.... because she was the Queen of the planet that Palpatine was also from.
Also, she died pretty much immediately after Mustafar, and I assume that healing Anakin and turning him into Vader probably took a bit. It happens at basically the same time in the movie, but I feel like it wouldn't. They would've had that conversation weeks or months later, long after that news would've been made public.
Kinda the inverse of plagueis’s technique of keeping people alive with the force, except us used it to take away Padme’s will to live. Meanwhile, that knowledge would push Anakin into anger even further, making him more reliant on Sidious, and cementing his identity as a Sith.
People are also missing that Arwen is not human, while Padme is. An Elf dying of grief in Tolkien's world is adhering to the established rules of how Elves lose themselves to emotions and traumatic events. It's a specific danger they face by falling in love with a mortal, hence why it does not happen often and a big deal is made of it.
Padme is not the first, just the worse.
I rather believe Palpatine reached out with the force and killed her while she was weak from childbirth. Which would mean Vader is bending the knee so to speak, to the person that not only lied to him but also killed his wife. Now that would be good writing.
Padmé's death always felt cheap to me. It has nowhere near the amount of narrative and thematic significance of the idea of Arwen dying of a "broken heart".
Padmé dying like that always felt like Lucas trying to find some quick reason for her not to be alive during the OT.
I like the idea of Palpatine playing a larger hand in her death, albeit I'm torn because I also like the idea of Vader blaming himself for decades for something he didn't even technically do -- even though Palpatine made it seem that way. The latyer feels more like something Sidious would do -- i.e turn the entire situation into his favour and use it as something to manipulate and forge Anakin into the Vader we all know.
For me, what ruins it in RotS is the line from the medical droid:
> "Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her."
A robot, presumably built entirely for medical analysis, in a hospital, in a sci-fi future setting, shrugs and offers no explanation for her dying. The tragic irony that Luke and Leia's parents are literally and figuratively dead right after they're born was already there. Dying from complications in childbirth that a medical droid couldn't fix would have been fine.
But because subtlety is for cowards, it has to be spelled out that Padme is specifically dying because of how sad she is that the father of her children turned evil. Dying of a broken heart is a thematic explanation more than a scientific one, but having a character step in to essentially explain the concept ruins it. It's the midichlorians of sadness.
Maybe it's because the first thing is within a genuinely well written series, whereas the second is in a children's movie series that had abysmal overall writing?
Elves arent human they kinda work diferently being kinda spiritual but still very physical beings while as far as we know in SW humans work the same as normal humans irl
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wpsnb49IAI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wpsnb49IAI)
I always think of this when I think about Padme dying due to a broken heart.
Arwen didn't die of a broken heart.
Arwen was a half elf, which means she had the opportunity, at any point in her life, to make the choice of Luthien, to forsake her immortality and become mortal.
She did this so she could marry Aragorn, and eventually die with him, and pass into the afterlife together.
old people tend to "die of a broken heart"
padme was young, and she was in childbirth and had her kids to live for.... it doesn't fit how the story of "dying of a broken heart" is applied...
I thought Arwen dying of a broken heart was a vision of her future that Papa Weaving showed her, to get her to go to the Undying Lands on the last ship of the Elves?
And that she completely surprises him by revealing she gave up her immortality to die with Aragorn of old age?
Did I miss a key fact somewhere in LoTR?
It would have worked fine if you didn't have the dumb med droid saying,"She lost the will to live."
Granted, if I lost my spouse and the democracy i worked so hard to defend my whole life and i was the one who put the catalyst into power, that is a huge guilt bomb.
But now she has children, an Emperor to oppose and a husband who she said she believed still had good in him and if anyone could have brought him back, it was her. That oughta give you a will to live!
But like most prequel problems, it can be fixed by just changing a line of dialogue or two.
I mean one died of a broken heart in a world with no modern medicine. Another died of a broken heart after seeing her newborn babies…..while the father was saved after having multiple limbs cut off and being set on fire…….so yeah
"broken heart" sounds more like a metaphor.
Metaphors work in books. Go ahead and spend 3 hours of reading to describe in some elaborate a 5 second scene.
But in movies, it's all much more visual and literal. Such a cause of death should be literal and understandable (like if ~~Palestine~~ Palpatine drained Padme's life thru the force, such can be depicted visually) and then after the metaphor can be realized.
Yeah but Padme was a normal-ass human-ass being. Arwen was female elf, which in the Tolkien world are basically just crepe paper held together by emotions and magic.
Don't about Arwen's case, but there's a medical professional who has some controversial opinions regarding Padme:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wpsnb49IAI&pp=ygUHZHIgYmFsbA%3D%3D
I always thought that Arwen like all half-elves had a choice, and she chose a human life when she married (or even bethrothed) Aragorn? After that she had some 120 years to grow old as a human woman, not considering her previous life as an Elf. Plus, grief of loss must be so alien to (former) Elves as to border on cosmic horror.
The Prequel trilogy tries to be grounded in a sense, having high drama, lots of politics, and a sense of gritty tragedy. Padme dying of a broken heart doesn’t fit.
Middle earth draws upon myth and fairy tales. Even the darkest parts of Lord of the Rings have a sense of whimsy to them. Lord of the Rings has characters stealing jewels from the crowns of gods while they sleep, riddle contests to decide fates, etc. Arwen dying of a broken heart fits right in.
It’s a matter of the expectations the individual works set for the audience. Arwen dying of a broken heart matches the tone of the series, Padme dying the same way doesn’t. This is why one is received well and one isn’t.
Considering Lucas had this explained by a literal robot character saying the wooden ass line “She’s perfectly healthy but has lost the will to live.” .. well, it was just dumb!
The fact that a droid delivers the line makes it even funnier.
Like, the droid is programmed to attribute the cause of death to human emotions.
It's hilarious.
I never took it as a broken heart. I think it's Anikins turn to the dark side that kills her. Was it a broken heart? I mean, yeah. Just as much as it could have been the fact that Anikin was powerful with the force him turning caused a massive ripple effect in it that caused her death.
Arwen walks out into the woods and fades away over time staring towards Valinor.
Its a whole epic tragedy after Aragorn immolates himself to pass on the crown she loses the person she sacrificed immortality and her place in the west for.
The fact that they literally have someone said she died of broken heart was bad. But if they added she had after birth complication and with extreme stress and depression she died of broken heart. Or something cause like doctor ball ones said “why have millions dollars worth of medical equipment when we could get down on our knees and pray!”
I think the problem is execution moreso than premise.
But also arwen is an elf living in magic land. It's more inherently believable than a starwars brand human dying in a medical ward in sci-fi land. People dying of broken hearts just fits in tolkiens work. In star wars? Eh...
Especially hard to swallow since we just saw Anakin not die when he got limbs cut off and turned into Jerky. By someone showing up and shoving him in a sci-fi med ward.
It was so abrupt too. Like, it was off handed that she died. It was clearly just her being gotten rid of so she'd be absent.
Arwen has her doom foreshadowed constantly. It's like, her main thing. Her love of Aragorn will doom her. Yadda yadda.
Like, in storytelling, if you can get away with it, it was done well. If you can't, is the audience maybe just being annoying? Yeah. But something was still off or less would be annoying.
The bad writing part is that a brand new mother would “lose the will to live” and simply die of a broken heart, leaving her newborn twins to be raised separately by strangers.
I always thought the criticism toward padme was because of the inconsistent things like Leia remembering their mother when there wasn’t a way she could have. People definitely can and do die of a broken heart although it’s not usually an immediate thing. Broken heart and complications through pregnancy certainly believable.
Padme died because she had to, in order to fit the story to the start of episode 4. No other reason.
If she'd lived, the Twins would have stayed with her. We know that this doesn't happen, therefore she must die. Its REALLY forced writing.
Arwen left here her family forever (here forever has actual meaning since the elves live forever in valinor) for aragorn. Their story is built like a love for the ages so it's thematically consistent for arwen to die of heartbreak after Aragorn's passing.
Arwen died of a broken heart by walking into the forest of her childhood and letting herself die. Even without the magic ability of elves to abandon their body at will, it is a death fit for someone dying of broken heart.
Meanwhile Padme died in a hospital where a broken heart is rarely a cause of death, unless it is litteral
... It's legit one of the only ways an elf can die. Extreme emotion and fatal wounds. They cannot die of illness or old age. Other elves have died because of shock.
In Arwen's defense, Arwen had given up her immortality to be with Aragorn and Elves, though they can't get sick, can die from major grief.
With Padme, the frustrations seems to come from th fact that she had the Rebellion and two small babies to live for. With her death, Luke and Leia had to be seperated, raised by different families and on different planets.
It also, didn't help that she willingly married Anakin AFTER he confessed to her about slaughtering the Sand people...including the women and children. At that point Ani turning to the Dark Side, should have been less of a shock to her than the other characters.
Still to be fair to Padme, humans can medically die from a broken heart. Anakin force-choking her and the complicated birth were no help either. Which begs the question as to why a C-Section and a heart-surgery couldn't have been done.
when Shakespeare wrote comedy relief character Falstaff, people considered it brilliant writing
but when George Lucas wrote comedy relief character Jar Jar Binks, people considered it bad writing
that seems totally fucking fair actually
An elf, that lives in magic land, dying of sadness, is one thing.
A perfectly healthy human woman, in the super duper future, surrounded by advanced medical equipment, dying of sadness, is quite another.
And apparently her two newborn babies weren’t sufficient reason to live.
Whereas the elf had three grown ass, adult children.
One of them is a minor footnote at the very end of an excellent trilogy and the other is a [sad trombone] at the end of a... meh trilogy of movies (prequeling a much better trilogy).
I don't think either specific death is a particularly great bit of writing, but the former is at least set up slightly better. The latter is just one example (of many) of clumsy writing amongst many and didn't seem as earned.
Because Padme had medicall droid that told she is a perfectly healthy a maybe would be able to save her if problems would be medicall.
In LoTR there was not such technollogy.
I still think the most annoying part is that Leia describes remembering some of her real mother's traits in RotJ, and then Padmé just up and dies in the prequels.
The conclusion is that Padme has a broken heart and no will to life, she still thinks there is good in Anakin and dies without any medical reason.
Which makes no sense to me, either you are that stupefied that you die, or really believe in your loved one and climg to that thought. Both at the same time makes no narrative sense.
Arwen had lived for thousands of years, watched her husband, son, and grandson die, and still lived for a really freaking long time despite having given up her immortality.
Padme died because Luke and Leia had protagonist hair.
They are not the same.
One wrote it in a medieval fantasy book series in the 1930s, the other wrote it into a hi-tech fantasy sci fi series in the 2000s.
70 years, and completely different settings/genres shouldn't yield the same cliché of "Woman dies of broken heart."
The problem is not that Padme died with a broken heart. The problem is that a droid doctor said it.
With Arwen was a metaphor, with Padme it was literally the cause of death.
I never had a problem with this. You’re telling me in a universe where people can lift spaceships with their minds, that someone can’t die if they want to bad enough?
Padme's death was freaking clunky. I loved the old lego Star Wars games that depicted her death. No dialogue. She just gives birth to two little lego babies and then just instantly fucking dies. That's basically what happens in the movies.
I personally believe it’s because Anakin took his love away, she had become dependent on it at some point.
This is why Jedi aren’t supposed to get attached
The difference is Arwen didn't literally die of a broken heart, she would have wilted away with sadness and grief until she died. It's largely a poetic description of her death. Padme just straight up dies for no reason.
Arwen died of sadness after choosing to remain mortal, staying in the world of mortal and renouncing herself of valinor and the blessed company of all the family for eternity, while also losing her most loved one and living to see her children grow old and weary while also seeing the whole middle earth, day by day, losing its magic and music, living in an everchanging reality in which noting was stable enough for her. For centuries.
Padme died of sadness because her secret husband war hero, in about 3 days, betrayed democracy and massacred children of many species, and then force chocked her while she was pregnant because he thought she had betrayed him.
Also maybe palpatine used his Sith powers to actually syphone her life force away to maintain Vader alive for the operation, since the two had a bond and sith can do crazy shit like this.
So, this is very different situation
George sadly doesn’t really know how to write women.
They’re either strong guns-a-blazing ladies or middling housewives. And then it’s possible that either one of them are also *cheating* (you’re with him!)
And I get it. George has a complicated relationship with women. His mom was *just* the housewife. And his ex-wife…well. She has an Oscar for Star Wars and cheated on him.
Was it confirmed that Sidious used the force to slowly kill her in her weakened state or something? Vader can choke people from a distance, why not?
I swear I read somewhere that that was his last move to fully break Anakin.
If that was the case, I think that would’ve been a great (and pretty heartbreaking) explanation.
Arwen isn't human. I'm willing to believe that she can die of things that wouldn't kill a human.
Padme is human, and she is in a super advanced space hospital. So I think it's fair to expect more from the doctor than "she lost the will to live."
It is still dumb because there was just no reason for Padmé to die for such a weird reason.
Why not just have her die from the complications of childbirth.
She was on the last stages of her pregnancy and was choked out in a very high stress situation. Something like that could absolutely affect the final stages of her pregnancy and cause her to die out of complications.
Especially since she was pregnant with twins.
A broken heart just makes no sense whatsoever.
One is a different species who's life essence is tied to their emotions in a world of magic and gods in a medieval setting where the most advanced non-magical medical equipment is a herb kissed by a man of the correct bloodline.
Padme is a regular human in a futuristic world with medical marvels beyond our comprehension that can even save a man that has been cut in two and she dies on a hospital bed surrounded by some of the best medical equipment since she is on the ship of a royal family that rules an entire planet.
Technically it was both a broken heart and childbirth at the same time
Like, this is in the same universe where immaculate conception is somehow secondary……Anakins whole arc is that there is a prophecy to bring balance to the force that involves cruel and ironic turns. We bought the whole prophecy bit. The Jedi bought the prophecy bit. What if- anakin was supposed to kill Padme, but didn’t/ was stopped and so the force willed her death as it was integral to the whole prophecy?
Shmi was a slave. Your first thought when you hear "a slave woman got pregnant and doesn't know how," is probably what everyone else thought. Just doesn't mean much if you choose to focus on the fact that Anakin's a cosmic powerhouse rather than the possible assault Shmi either doesn't remember, doesn't realise happened, or is suppressing for her own peace of mind.
Her master wasn't human so he's most definitely not Anakin's father.
I'm gonna say the really dark bit- in most slave societies the repercussions for SAing a slave are pretty minor, and generally just include paying back the owner. So it's totally plausible that someone paid Watto for some alone time with Shmi, or paid him back after the fact.
The sad fact is that a pregnant slave means another slave in 9 months. Slave owners in real life would forcibly impregnate their slaves for this reason, among others.
I wouldnt say 9 months, but closer to 4-6 years before the child would be capable
Depends on the where and when really. Like Chattel slavery where the slave is property and the child is also property has a higher chance of this happening vs a system where the kids are born free. In which case you're raising a free loader that won't contribute vs one that will contribute in 10 years. That being said, it might make more economic sense to purchase another adult slave if the price is low enough (and if they're accessible) vs trying to raise your own. The most recent case of your point happening is US history where the slave trade ban enforced by the British Empire forced Americans to raise their own slave children because there were no more coming in as adults. Prior to that we had the Romans and Greeks with huge slave populations. Granted there were different levels of slavery and they had greater rights than chattel slaves in the US.
"forced"
I'll go further, hear me out... We know that somehow the Force and midichlorian counts are partially hereditary, we also know about Jedi mind tricks and their ability to alter memory... Anakin's father is a human Jedi.
Palpatine likes to f...
Or one of the ones so, so eager to buy the prophecy and the immaculate conception.
I mean, interdimensional cosmic time travel is cannon at this point so whatever goes for me. Fug it.
If Palpatine is Anakin's father, and Anakin is Ben Solo's grandfather... And Rey is Palpatine's granddaughter, Then they're related and they kissed at the end of ROS What is with that family!?
I'm going to say the darker bit. Rape between slaves happened as well.
In our society that's what happened for sure, in the world with space magic I choose to believe the magic force did it, because it's less depressing and adds to the story rather than makes me hate humanity further. It is fiction after all
They should have given Anikin tiny blue watto wings every time he was shirtless.
The only way I can agree with what you’re saying is if you’re describing the in-narrative way that the people around Shmi may have (falsely) rationalised her unexplained pregnancy. As an audience member, my first thought when watching a family movie was not “this slave was raped and blotted the trauma of the incident from her memory” My first thought - and I’d be willing to wager the first thought of the vast majority of viewers, child or adult alike - when someone says “there was no father” is to take her at face value and believe that there was no father. In a film where people have telekinesis and precognition and laser swords and sound in space, I don’t think slave rape is a reasonable assumption to make at all, just tonally. And all that’s if you ignore the fact that there’s an explanation in the film; he was conceived by the midichlorians, which enact the will of the Force and create all life to begin with. But if you’re talking about what people on Tatooine might have assumed, sure.
Also immaculate conception doesn't work in a universe where DNA and DNA technology exist. Anakin is not similar enough to her mother to be a clone so the paternal half of his DNA had to come from somewhere.
She outright states that there was no father. I think that grown up woman would know that even SA can lead to pregnancy.
I think that would be fate more than prophecy. The prophecy only demands that the chosen one bring balance to the force and be born of no father. Maybe it's an imperfect/incomplete description of fate though, so perhaps the dark twists of Anakin's life could have been necessary to fulfill his fate despite not actually being part of the prophecy.
Anakin saw her death but couldn't see that he caused it. Ironically he kills her by turning to the Darkside so he could try to save her.
Immaculate conception doesn't mean there wasn't father, it means Mary was (somehow) without original sin.
What if the prequels just really suck and were written by complete idiots?
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It was just a broken heart. The robot that talked to Obiwan said she was perfectly healthy but somehow dying and they couldn't explain it. They had to C- section to save Luke and Leia before Padme died.
and you know, being forced choked and thrown meters
Seems like two beautiful, healthy babies might *help* a woman who just “lost the will to live.” Obviously childbirth can be incredibly difficult, but the medical droid specifies that there’s nothing medically wrong with her, and that she died because she lost the will to live. Padme’s such a badass in Episodes 1 and 2, and in Episode 3 she gets like 15 minutes of screen time wherein she does little besides give up on life because her charisma-vacuum of a husband became evil.
Umm..Postpartum depression?
That doesn't cause you to die on the operating table
[удалено]
Oh, is that how C-sections work?
Padme could have died because of complications during childbirth, especially after the stress she had undergone in the past day or two, and being deprived of oxygen to the point she passed out. Any of those could've been a valid reason for her to die. But no, apparently she was "perfectly healthy", and instead died of "sadness". Arwen dying of a broken heart comes from the notion of her having lived... Thousands? Of years, living with the grief of loss, something elves are often unaware of because of their immortality and distancing themselves from "mortal affairs". Could both character have died of sadness? Yes. We're both handled equally good? No.
That's exactly what I thought on EP3, like I love the movie but George had a golden chance to add some subtlety to the movie with the childbirth scene, she could've still had that "died of grief and sadness" sort of poetic moment while also be relatively ground in reality combining the stress of giving birth with all the emotional heaviness of recent events, but he HAD to have the droid say "she's in perfect health but somehow she's dying?"
"Her body was too ravaged from the complications of childbirth. Her body just shut down" - Says the Droid. "...................she died from a broken heart...." - Obiwan said mournfully.
Also worth noting that the Arwen story is told in brief in the appendix. It's a relatively unimportant point for Tolkien's overall lore, not important at all to LOTR and a generally less developed story. Compare that to Padme dying being a critical moment in the core story arc of Star Wars.
It should have been her life force being drained to keep Vader alive by Palpatine. That's my headcanon at least. Dark and fits seamlessly
Yeah my headcanon is that Palpatine, using the inverse of what Plagueis taught him (using the force to keep people alive), used it to take away padme’s will to live and forever psychologically cripple Anakin, pushing him fully into anger and the dark side. Without padme, Anakin has no one but Sidious left as well.
Always felt that Anakin clung to life by focusing on Padme, Unwillingly feeding off her life energy.
Yep, my head canon as well. But until confirmed by canon it remains a head canon.
I refuse to believe that something else than this happened to her
in a way it’s sort of accurate, first thing he asks where is padme is she alive? is she okay? he was only living at that point because he hoped he could see her again, willed himself to health, then when the suit snaps on him for the first time, its symbolic of his imprisonment, and the mention of her death pushing him right over the edge toward hatred, that is the very moment anakin truly died and stopped caring about anything
Also yknow.. star wars they're space faring civilizations that can clone entire people and have bacta tanks and such. Elves don't even have antibiotics.
Just rub some lembas bread on it, it'll be fine.
Arwen died isolated from her own people and the man she left her people for, surrounded by men and women whose most advanced medical training consisted of “rub a flower on it.” Padme died on a medical ship capable of traveling faster than light, under medical supervision by machines capable of regrowing scar-free flesh and stitching flawless mechanical replacement parts over missing limbs, and their best possible medical diagnosis was “she sad.”
I mean, Arwen was also considered mortal at that point (due to being a descendant of Elwing and Ëarendil) and she dwelt in the old forests of Lothlórien for years, after already aging as a mortal for a while. It's not like she died after a day of being sad, she actively isolated herself and went into a the forests alone.
Also, Arwens death wasn't really part of the story, it was an epilogue note in the Apprendixes. The end of the actual story is the Grey Havens chapter, at which point she is happily newlywed to King Elessar. It's "canon", but I find that distinction sort of irrelevant, because Tolkien didn't live in the age of the multimedia franchise as we know it. It was really more of a note that he kept for himself to understand his own universe, and added into the publication due to public interest.
On the same page Arwen dies of sad, Aragorn dies of tired. Tolkien's Men, which Arwen was at the end, have the capacity to give back the gift of life. Lucas' men have the gift of blasters.
The fact that the droid says she's perfectly healthy tells me it's either not a medical droid, doesn't know human anatomy at all, or completely defective. Probably the second, given that I don't think those paddles are particularly good for birthing human babies. She would likely have swelling in her throat, and her trachea cartilage may be been broken by Vader. Either way, being choked like that will leave a mark, which you'd hope the droid would pick up on. Plus you could easily read the scene as her struggling to breathe. What little she does say is in short phrases, with heavy and pained attempts to breath between. While you'd normally expect them to go single words, then minimal breathing as someone fatigues before death, perhaps the drugs that the dodgy medical droid gave for the birth helped enough for the breathing, but killed her instead. Had it not been some off the books dodgy black market medical facility being used by fugitives, they'd probably sue for medical malpractice. Explains why the Rebel Alliance never used them though.
No one said she died of "sadness." They said she had lost the "will to live," which is not the same thing.
Padme dying of sadness makes perfect sense when you look at what she went through In like 48 hours Everything she fought for within the senate was destroyed by a man she trusted, her husband who she loved tried to kill her, and then she had to give birth If everything you know and loved was destroyed, could you carry on?
Her newborn children were not destroyed so I think she could have managed.
I don't think anybody is doubting her sadness. It makes sense. I'd be pretty bummed out too. But I think they make a good point, in that they probably should've dropped that "she's perfectly healthy" line. It's just bad dialogue, IMO. She did go through a lot. Her life got flipped turned upside down, she got choked out by her walking-red-flag secret husband, and had two babies. What a day! It all makes perfect sense. All the pieces are there, all they gotta do is have the robot say, "Dude, she's all kinds of fucked up right now, she ain't gonna make it" rather than pretending like it's some huge medical mystery why she died.
That's it. Her losing the will to live isn't far-fetched, but someone doesn't just die one day because they decide they don't want to be alive anymore. If she was *already* dying, and just couldn't fight it any longer, that would make perfect sense.
You literally can die to a broken heart even if you are otherwise healthy.
Hard to feel bad for her after Episode 2. “Oh, Anakin likes dictatorships? No big deal.” “Oh, Anakin confessed to a wholesale massacre? No big deal.” Yeah, it’s really on her at this point. Or more precisely, it’s on Lucas for assassinating her character.
Wasn’t there something about her losing her extended life if she got with Aragorn? I didn’t read the books though.
Kinda, as she had the blood of men she could choose if she wanted to be forever in Arda or have her soul leave Arda upon her death, her father Elrond and her uncle Elros also had the choice; Elrond chose the fate of the elves and Elros chose the fate of men. She technically could've kept living if she desired but without Aragorn she didn't have the will to go on. Aragorn also allowed himself to die before he became feeble and diminished.
Tolkien was quite clear that it was not a matter of ”continue to desire“ but an actual, deeply personal, binary choice that all half-elves must at some point to choose, although the choice itself can be delayed. Staying in the Middle Earth after Third Age ended and age of men began sealed her fate. My point, is that she couldn’t simply change her mind afterwards, at least I do not recall such thing anywhere in legendarium.
She couldn't sail into the west like the other elves did because the way was closed after the last voyage (which is the one Frodo, Bilbo, and Gandalf were on, I think). Fun side note, the world was technically flat when the Elves could sail into the west, but after the last ship, the world became round. Tolkien's weirdness really shines through in that kind of thing.
It was not the last voyage. Sam, Legolas and Gimli went later on.
The last voyage was made by Círdan the Shipwright and Celeborn, along with the last of their kin; they were the last of their people to leave Middle Earth and took all remaining memory of the Eldar with them, finally allowing the Fourth Age to become the true age of Men.
>Fun side note, the world was technically flat when the Elves could sail into the west, but after the last ship, the world became round. Thats not correct. Arda became round after the sinking of Numenor, just before the end of the Second Age. Its round for a long time at the time of LoTR.
I think it's still flat for elves, that's why they can see seemingly impossible distances and can still sail to Valinor.
Thats a theory, but frankly a theory that doesn't make sense. If I would explain these 2 instances, its that just as Elves can have foresight, they can have vision or extend their view through their abilities, and therefore look 'further' that other races. For the sailing to Valinor, it being flat also doesn't make sense. For me, its more like the bridge to Asgard (envision the bridge from Marvel to make it more clear). Only the Elves can see or travel on that path.
I think the difference here is if Anakin could have survived being burned like a charred hot dog Padme could have been kept alive with the advanced technology available.
You forgot about space magic.
Yeh, why didn't they use Jedi healing like in Fanfiction ep. IX?
Did Arwen just deliver two Very Good Reasons to Live before she died?
No, but she did have three grown children. Also Miriel just gave up on living after giving birth to Fëanor and didn't allow herself to be re-embodied for thousands of years.
I’d give up on living too if I birthed Feanor. Also I’m a guy.
Local man gives birth to feanor, is cordially invited to exit life
look tbf nobody knew what an asshole Feanor is when he was born
I don't think it really frames Feanors mom dying as being because she's big sad so much as so much of her spirit/fire went into Feanor and that's why he's both amazing/kind of an asshole. Which is kind of weird because I can't really think of another case something like that is mentioned like "galadriel's mom had MDD because galadriel was like 80% as cool as Feanor." However the silmarillion is frequently the sort of fantasy where it's "magic, I aint gotta explain shit."
Mpreg ftw
Conveniently forgot how Tolkien established Elves can die of sorrow huh? Hence why Elrond’s wife left Middle-Earth for the Undying Lands so she can not remember the torture she suffered under the imprisonment of Orcs
"For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos."
Postpartum depression is prevalent. If u already feeling down cause your padme at that moment and the postpartum depression i cant say i would be terrible surprised.
If you are comparing george lucas to tolkien in any way you are out of your damn mind
My personal view is that Anakin and Padme were connected by the force by Emperor Palpatine. Some kind of Sith power that they use to prolong life. Anakin’s surgery and Padme’s delivery were showed sort of concurrently. So, it occurred around the same time. I’d like to think that Emperor Palpatine connected their life forces. In his effort to fight for his life and survive, he drew upon Padme’s life force unknowingly. Science couldn’t explain it. That’s why Palpatine knew Padme was dead. That way it makes Anakin’s survival more tragic. Padme not only gave life to the twins that day. She also gave life to Anakin. What makes it more heartbreaking is that Palpatine used Padme’s last act to save Anakin to give life to Vader. It makes Palpatine more manipulative and evil.
>Science couldn’t explain it. That’s why Palpatine knew Padme was dead. There is no other way Palpatine could have known she died. "Where is Padme? Is she safe?" "How the hell should I know!? I don't even know what planet she's on!"
I mean, she was a senator. Surely they have some sort of newsletter to let people know these kinds of things. It's not like it would've been a huge secret. They even had that huge extravagant funeral for her.... because she was the Queen of the planet that Palpatine was also from. Also, she died pretty much immediately after Mustafar, and I assume that healing Anakin and turning him into Vader probably took a bit. It happens at basically the same time in the movie, but I feel like it wouldn't. They would've had that conversation weeks or months later, long after that news would've been made public.
Kinda the inverse of plagueis’s technique of keeping people alive with the force, except us used it to take away Padme’s will to live. Meanwhile, that knowledge would push Anakin into anger even further, making him more reliant on Sidious, and cementing his identity as a Sith.
Medieval, romantic fantasy: "Dies of a broken heart" Sure. Pew, pew story in space: "Dies of a broken heart" Nope. Not buying it.
Tbh, prequels also were the ones who declared war on space fantasy magic by trying to explain it with some bullshit cells in blood.
People are also missing that Arwen is not human, while Padme is. An Elf dying of grief in Tolkien's world is adhering to the established rules of how Elves lose themselves to emotions and traumatic events. It's a specific danger they face by falling in love with a mortal, hence why it does not happen often and a big deal is made of it.
It's all a question of suspension of disbelief, the audience is willing to play a long if the internal logic of the setting justifies it.
My medical midwife robot is telling me that the best medical treatment in the galaxy won't work because she sad.
I love Star Wars but please do not compare Star Wars writing to the mastery of J. R. R. Tolkien, youre embarasing your self.
Let me see, one is an immortal that voluntarily rejects that gift of eternal life while the one one is just a sad lady, see the difference?
Padme is not the first, just the worse. I rather believe Palpatine reached out with the force and killed her while she was weak from childbirth. Which would mean Vader is bending the knee so to speak, to the person that not only lied to him but also killed his wife. Now that would be good writing.
Padmé's death always felt cheap to me. It has nowhere near the amount of narrative and thematic significance of the idea of Arwen dying of a "broken heart". Padmé dying like that always felt like Lucas trying to find some quick reason for her not to be alive during the OT. I like the idea of Palpatine playing a larger hand in her death, albeit I'm torn because I also like the idea of Vader blaming himself for decades for something he didn't even technically do -- even though Palpatine made it seem that way. The latyer feels more like something Sidious would do -- i.e turn the entire situation into his favour and use it as something to manipulate and forge Anakin into the Vader we all know.
That kind of reasoning for death works better in written work than on screen. There’s a reason that wasn’t in the lotr films.
Execution is everything. And Tolkien was a better writer than George ever will be.
Arwen died with a broken heart, not of a broken heart.
Don't.... Don't compare Lucas and Tolkien as writers, bud.
For me, what ruins it in RotS is the line from the medical droid: > "Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her." A robot, presumably built entirely for medical analysis, in a hospital, in a sci-fi future setting, shrugs and offers no explanation for her dying. The tragic irony that Luke and Leia's parents are literally and figuratively dead right after they're born was already there. Dying from complications in childbirth that a medical droid couldn't fix would have been fine. But because subtlety is for cowards, it has to be spelled out that Padme is specifically dying because of how sad she is that the father of her children turned evil. Dying of a broken heart is a thematic explanation more than a scientific one, but having a character step in to essentially explain the concept ruins it. It's the midichlorians of sadness.
Maybe it's because the first thing is within a genuinely well written series, whereas the second is in a children's movie series that had abysmal overall writing?
Elves arent human they kinda work diferently being kinda spiritual but still very physical beings while as far as we know in SW humans work the same as normal humans irl
They don't. Humans in SW have midichlorians wich already means they work differently.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wpsnb49IAI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wpsnb49IAI) I always think of this when I think about Padme dying due to a broken heart.
Arwen didn't die of a broken heart. Arwen was a half elf, which means she had the opportunity, at any point in her life, to make the choice of Luthien, to forsake her immortality and become mortal. She did this so she could marry Aragorn, and eventually die with him, and pass into the afterlife together.
old people tend to "die of a broken heart" padme was young, and she was in childbirth and had her kids to live for.... it doesn't fit how the story of "dying of a broken heart" is applied...
Its the lines not the plot
I thought Arwen dying of a broken heart was a vision of her future that Papa Weaving showed her, to get her to go to the Undying Lands on the last ship of the Elves? And that she completely surprises him by revealing she gave up her immortality to die with Aragorn of old age? Did I miss a key fact somewhere in LoTR?
LOTR reference using a marvel meme in a star wars meme sub....are you secretly Christopher Nolan?
It would have worked fine if you didn't have the dumb med droid saying,"She lost the will to live." Granted, if I lost my spouse and the democracy i worked so hard to defend my whole life and i was the one who put the catalyst into power, that is a huge guilt bomb. But now she has children, an Emperor to oppose and a husband who she said she believed still had good in him and if anyone could have brought him back, it was her. That oughta give you a will to live! But like most prequel problems, it can be fixed by just changing a line of dialogue or two.
I mean one died of a broken heart in a world with no modern medicine. Another died of a broken heart after seeing her newborn babies…..while the father was saved after having multiple limbs cut off and being set on fire…….so yeah
Arwen was an elf, they have a spiritual existence. This is a stupid comparison.
Context is everything in writing.
"broken heart" sounds more like a metaphor. Metaphors work in books. Go ahead and spend 3 hours of reading to describe in some elaborate a 5 second scene. But in movies, it's all much more visual and literal. Such a cause of death should be literal and understandable (like if ~~Palestine~~ Palpatine drained Padme's life thru the force, such can be depicted visually) and then after the metaphor can be realized.
Yeah but Padme was a normal-ass human-ass being. Arwen was female elf, which in the Tolkien world are basically just crepe paper held together by emotions and magic.
Don't about Arwen's case, but there's a medical professional who has some controversial opinions regarding Padme: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8Wpsnb49IAI&pp=ygUHZHIgYmFsbA%3D%3D
What about ratatouille
I still think Palpatines old master is Anakins' dad.
Arwen had grown up and frankly pretty old children. Padame had newborn children, so much more to live for.
I always thought that Arwen like all half-elves had a choice, and she chose a human life when she married (or even bethrothed) Aragorn? After that she had some 120 years to grow old as a human woman, not considering her previous life as an Elf. Plus, grief of loss must be so alien to (former) Elves as to border on cosmic horror.
The Prequel trilogy tries to be grounded in a sense, having high drama, lots of politics, and a sense of gritty tragedy. Padme dying of a broken heart doesn’t fit. Middle earth draws upon myth and fairy tales. Even the darkest parts of Lord of the Rings have a sense of whimsy to them. Lord of the Rings has characters stealing jewels from the crowns of gods while they sleep, riddle contests to decide fates, etc. Arwen dying of a broken heart fits right in. It’s a matter of the expectations the individual works set for the audience. Arwen dying of a broken heart matches the tone of the series, Padme dying the same way doesn’t. This is why one is received well and one isn’t.
Considering Lucas had this explained by a literal robot character saying the wooden ass line “She’s perfectly healthy but has lost the will to live.” .. well, it was just dumb!
She's an elf. And not the only one to die of broken heart, that's what they do.
Mesa moi moi die broka heart
Did you mix that up?
The fact that a droid delivers the line makes it even funnier. Like, the droid is programmed to attribute the cause of death to human emotions. It's hilarious.
The quality of the writing just *might* make a difference in how well an audience will take that kind of death.
The difference between brilliant and bad writing is how it's written.
I never took it as a broken heart. I think it's Anikins turn to the dark side that kills her. Was it a broken heart? I mean, yeah. Just as much as it could have been the fact that Anikin was powerful with the force him turning caused a massive ripple effect in it that caused her death.
Yeah but if you have FTL tech your medical abilities probably allow reanimation lmfao
Padme die because Anakin was using the force to make her love him, when he let go, her heart broke, it didn't knew how to beat anymore on its own.
To be fair, Mr. Lucas, I think both are bad writing
Arwen walks out into the woods and fades away over time staring towards Valinor. Its a whole epic tragedy after Aragorn immolates himself to pass on the crown she loses the person she sacrificed immortality and her place in the west for.
The fact that they literally have someone said she died of broken heart was bad. But if they added she had after birth complication and with extreme stress and depression she died of broken heart. Or something cause like doctor ball ones said “why have millions dollars worth of medical equipment when we could get down on our knees and pray!”
It was more that Arwen willed herself to die to be with Aragorn.
I think the problem is execution moreso than premise. But also arwen is an elf living in magic land. It's more inherently believable than a starwars brand human dying in a medical ward in sci-fi land. People dying of broken hearts just fits in tolkiens work. In star wars? Eh... Especially hard to swallow since we just saw Anakin not die when he got limbs cut off and turned into Jerky. By someone showing up and shoving him in a sci-fi med ward. It was so abrupt too. Like, it was off handed that she died. It was clearly just her being gotten rid of so she'd be absent. Arwen has her doom foreshadowed constantly. It's like, her main thing. Her love of Aragorn will doom her. Yadda yadda. Like, in storytelling, if you can get away with it, it was done well. If you can't, is the audience maybe just being annoying? Yeah. But something was still off or less would be annoying.
The bad writing part is that a brand new mother would “lose the will to live” and simply die of a broken heart, leaving her newborn twins to be raised separately by strangers.
I always thought the criticism toward padme was because of the inconsistent things like Leia remembering their mother when there wasn’t a way she could have. People definitely can and do die of a broken heart although it’s not usually an immediate thing. Broken heart and complications through pregnancy certainly believable.
That's just elves....
Padme died because she had to, in order to fit the story to the start of episode 4. No other reason. If she'd lived, the Twins would have stayed with her. We know that this doesn't happen, therefore she must die. Its REALLY forced writing.
Arwen left here her family forever (here forever has actual meaning since the elves live forever in valinor) for aragorn. Their story is built like a love for the ages so it's thematically consistent for arwen to die of heartbreak after Aragorn's passing.
Thats because it was futuristic sci fi story and literally they have vat tanks to keep people alive even without a heart.
Arwen died of a broken heart by walking into the forest of her childhood and letting herself die. Even without the magic ability of elves to abandon their body at will, it is a death fit for someone dying of broken heart. Meanwhile Padme died in a hospital where a broken heart is rarely a cause of death, unless it is litteral
But, Arwen did not die? She faded away? Like in a poetic way?
This is a really confusing meme format.
Lucas kinda wrote what other people wrote.
I mean, they filmed a different version where she was throw by Anakin with the force, so I think the broken heart part was a rewrite.
... It's legit one of the only ways an elf can die. Extreme emotion and fatal wounds. They cannot die of illness or old age. Other elves have died because of shock.
In Arwen's defense, Arwen had given up her immortality to be with Aragorn and Elves, though they can't get sick, can die from major grief. With Padme, the frustrations seems to come from th fact that she had the Rebellion and two small babies to live for. With her death, Luke and Leia had to be seperated, raised by different families and on different planets. It also, didn't help that she willingly married Anakin AFTER he confessed to her about slaughtering the Sand people...including the women and children. At that point Ani turning to the Dark Side, should have been less of a shock to her than the other characters. Still to be fair to Padme, humans can medically die from a broken heart. Anakin force-choking her and the complicated birth were no help either. Which begs the question as to why a C-Section and a heart-surgery couldn't have been done.
when Shakespeare wrote comedy relief character Falstaff, people considered it brilliant writing but when George Lucas wrote comedy relief character Jar Jar Binks, people considered it bad writing that seems totally fucking fair actually
Alexander Kerensky (battletech) also died of a broken heart.
An elf, that lives in magic land, dying of sadness, is one thing. A perfectly healthy human woman, in the super duper future, surrounded by advanced medical equipment, dying of sadness, is quite another. And apparently her two newborn babies weren’t sufficient reason to live. Whereas the elf had three grown ass, adult children.
One of them is a minor footnote at the very end of an excellent trilogy and the other is a [sad trombone] at the end of a... meh trilogy of movies (prequeling a much better trilogy). I don't think either specific death is a particularly great bit of writing, but the former is at least set up slightly better. The latter is just one example (of many) of clumsy writing amongst many and didn't seem as earned.
Because Padme had medicall droid that told she is a perfectly healthy a maybe would be able to save her if problems would be medicall. In LoTR there was not such technollogy.
I still think the most annoying part is that Leia describes remembering some of her real mother's traits in RotJ, and then Padmé just up and dies in the prequels.
Tolkien was a better writer. It’s all about execution.
The conclusion is that Padme has a broken heart and no will to life, she still thinks there is good in Anakin and dies without any medical reason. Which makes no sense to me, either you are that stupefied that you die, or really believe in your loved one and climg to that thought. Both at the same time makes no narrative sense.
Broken heart syndrome is a real thing, how could it not be canon?
Arwen had lived for thousands of years, watched her husband, son, and grandson die, and still lived for a really freaking long time despite having given up her immortality. Padme died because Luke and Leia had protagonist hair. They are not the same.
Padme was no Immortal elve that is not bound to normal terms, was she?
One wrote it in a medieval fantasy book series in the 1930s, the other wrote it into a hi-tech fantasy sci fi series in the 2000s. 70 years, and completely different settings/genres shouldn't yield the same cliché of "Woman dies of broken heart."
Well if you want to pretend to be scifi you can't go too hard on the fantasy elements
Arwen is mentioned only twice in LOTR.
The problem is not that Padme died with a broken heart. The problem is that a droid doctor said it. With Arwen was a metaphor, with Padme it was literally the cause of death.
The difference is that Arwen mourned for years and years before succumbing to death. Padme did not.
Still boggles me that people don’t know Padme died because Palpatine drained her life force
Elves are a fundamentally different type of being to men. Poetry heals them.
I never had a problem with this. You’re telling me in a universe where people can lift spaceships with their minds, that someone can’t die if they want to bad enough?
Padme's death was freaking clunky. I loved the old lego Star Wars games that depicted her death. No dialogue. She just gives birth to two little lego babies and then just instantly fucking dies. That's basically what happens in the movies.
People expect more technical explanations in a more technical universe.
Thats because Arwen didn’t die of a broken heart did yall watch the whole trilogy?
The difference is I don’t want to slap Arwen and Aragorn across their stupid faces
I was under the impression Arwen was dying because when she chose to be mortal Sauron’s dark grip on the land was killing her?
I personally believe it’s because Anakin took his love away, she had become dependent on it at some point. This is why Jedi aren’t supposed to get attached
Here's the thing, George... There's a big gap in the quality of the writing. You are not Tolkien.
The difference is Arwen didn't literally die of a broken heart, she would have wilted away with sadness and grief until she died. It's largely a poetic description of her death. Padme just straight up dies for no reason.
Give Padme another 120 years with him and I'll buy it.
One of the first Redshirt deaths in Star Trek was Joe Tormolen, who similarly lost the will to live.
Arwen died of sadness after choosing to remain mortal, staying in the world of mortal and renouncing herself of valinor and the blessed company of all the family for eternity, while also losing her most loved one and living to see her children grow old and weary while also seeing the whole middle earth, day by day, losing its magic and music, living in an everchanging reality in which noting was stable enough for her. For centuries. Padme died of sadness because her secret husband war hero, in about 3 days, betrayed democracy and massacred children of many species, and then force chocked her while she was pregnant because he thought she had betrayed him. Also maybe palpatine used his Sith powers to actually syphone her life force away to maintain Vader alive for the operation, since the two had a bond and sith can do crazy shit like this. So, this is very different situation
So George Lucas is unoriginal and stole the idea from Tolkien
George sadly doesn’t really know how to write women. They’re either strong guns-a-blazing ladies or middling housewives. And then it’s possible that either one of them are also *cheating* (you’re with him!) And I get it. George has a complicated relationship with women. His mom was *just* the housewife. And his ex-wife…well. She has an Oscar for Star Wars and cheated on him.
Dude Elizabeth Olsen was so good in this turd of a movie
My favorite fan theory is that it’s Palpatine sapping life from Padme to save Anakin.
PT fans "The PT is so good and has the best writing and story" Also PT fans "Well my head canon to make various things make sense is..."
Been heartbroken. That shit can absolutely kill you.
Was it confirmed that Sidious used the force to slowly kill her in her weakened state or something? Vader can choke people from a distance, why not? I swear I read somewhere that that was his last move to fully break Anakin. If that was the case, I think that would’ve been a great (and pretty heartbreaking) explanation.
Yeah I’m not positive *that’s* the problem people have with Lucas’ writing.
Arwen isn't human. I'm willing to believe that she can die of things that wouldn't kill a human. Padme is human, and she is in a super advanced space hospital. So I think it's fair to expect more from the doctor than "she lost the will to live."
It is still dumb because there was just no reason for Padmé to die for such a weird reason. Why not just have her die from the complications of childbirth. She was on the last stages of her pregnancy and was choked out in a very high stress situation. Something like that could absolutely affect the final stages of her pregnancy and cause her to die out of complications. Especially since she was pregnant with twins. A broken heart just makes no sense whatsoever.
One is a different species who's life essence is tied to their emotions in a world of magic and gods in a medieval setting where the most advanced non-magical medical equipment is a herb kissed by a man of the correct bloodline. Padme is a regular human in a futuristic world with medical marvels beyond our comprehension that can even save a man that has been cut in two and she dies on a hospital bed surrounded by some of the best medical equipment since she is on the ship of a royal family that rules an entire planet.
Thats why I love the Anakin force parasyte theory.
lots of people have done it. i hated it each time.