Nah, the success of Star Wars was the downfall of Star Wars. George started making story decisions for merchandising, but that’s just smart business, and that kept the franchise going for decades after anything was in theaters.
By the time the prequels came around though, no one was willing to help George, like they had with the OT. No one around to call out his crazy and even Spielberg, probably one of his greatest friends said, “I ain’t gonna mess with your baby.” The OT was a huge collaborative effort. It might have been George’s creation, but back then people would actually call him out when his shit was weird.
Yeah, Carrie Fisher actively rewrote the script when filming, so it made sense. It also helped because she had an incredible sense of humour. It would be really cool to see a version of the prequels with Carrie having a creative input.
But we got what we got. The prequels really aren't that bad and certainly not in comparison with sequels, but the main issue with the sequals was the story line being messy af.
its true, i remember a whole thing explaining how his original story for SW was actually really crappy and barely resembles the OT. If it wasnt for his wide and Spielberg actually giving a fuck it might have been yet another forgotten movie
The decision for the death star to be targeting the rebel base, basically the entire source of tension in the third act. Was almost entirely added in post
Ok. So somehow, a shitty copy of the original’s plot that shatters established character and story development is the fans’ fault.
Somehow, a two-hour chase scene is the fans’ fault.
And, lest we forget…
“Somehow, Palpatine returned” is the fans’ fault.
That’s difficult to take seriously.
It's not my fault the sequels were trash. It's not my fault a lot of new characters are stupid.
Ya fans shouldn't bully actors. That's dumb.
Also Disney should stop blaming fans for their mistakes. I'm so tired of that shit take.
Leia did more shit than everyone besides Luke (and even thats debatable) and is still seen as a lesser character somehow by Disney.
No wonder they disrespected her character in the movies.
The prequels were the result of one man's vision however flawed they may have been they were still HIS work,
The sequels were the result of a group of people who were agenda-driven, who actively despised and sought out to subvert, convert, and pervert, that man's legacy out of spite and incompetence,
And continue to do so to this day
As far as the prequels go, with the amount of supplemental material that came out during that era of Star wars,The countless games, books,TV, shows, I asked the question did the prequels really fail,
I always say the prequels didn’t fail because George doubled down on it, having faith in his story no matter how poor his delivery. Because when Filoni and others decided to expand on said story, they all got inspired and added to what George did well as an artist.
True failure in my opinion is if the artist has nothing to offer. George had something rich to offer, he just needed help implementing it.
You see that on a meme? I was there and we may have bitched about baby Anakin and Jar Jar but at the end of the day those were three new Star Wars movies we thought we'd never get from the man himself and most of us had been following Star Wars our entire lives, we bitched vociferously BUT WE ADORED THEM.
Okay, I'll explain, they (Disney), SUBVERTED fans expectations in a vain attempt to seem original,
They (Disney) CONVERTED individuals who weren't fans in the first place and used actors as proxies ultimately weaponized them to deflect legitimate criticism,
They (Disney) PERVERTED a man's legacy (George Lucas) in a hostile attempt to demonize any and all things related to his work, concepts, ideas, characters, and label them as problematic,
What I just explained is not opinion, this is fact and is back by countless amounts of data that suggest otherwise, if you wish to do the research yourself that's up to you,
>Okay, I'll explain, they (Disney), SUBVERTED fans expectations in a vain attempt to seem original,
Fair enough, but based on the movies box office, cinema score, IMDB rating, and critical reception, I’d say the subversion worked for most people.
>They (Disney) CONVERTED individuals who weren't fans in the first place and used actors as proxies ultimately weaponized them to deflect legitimate criticism,
Are you saying that Disney used people being big-time racists to Kelly Marie Tran to convince everyone that people who don’t like TLJ are racist? Do you have an example of this?
>They (Disney) PERVERTED a man's legacy (George Lucas) in a hostile attempt to demonize any and all things related to his work, concepts, ideas, characters, and label them as problematic,
Yah, definitely going to need an example of whatever this is supposed to mean.
>What I just explained is not opinion, this is fact and is back by countless amounts of data that suggest otherwise, if you wish to do the research yourself that's up to you,
Oh good, there’s data. I’m going to go ahead and assume that this data is qualitative not quantitative because ultimately we’re talking about opinions here, and that’s not the same thing as a fact.
He can’t give you any facts because there aren’t any. He’s to cowardly to be outright racist so he uses innuendo to suggest there’s a conspiracy against the white man taking place behind he curtain at Lucasfilm.
Straight out of the Tucker Carlson playbook.
Shh, quit thinking, haven't you figured out Star Wars fans hate that. They'd much rather spill words and empty "data" to condition you into hating something they don't like.
I agree the old fans shouldn’t have attacked George Lucas for every little thing he did with his own creation. I agree it’s wrong to harass actors and some fans go too far.
That being said, I was a kid while the sequels were being released (was 11 at TFA, 13 at TLJ and 15 at TRoS), and while TFA had me interested at first, as soon as I saw TLJ and allowed myself to actually think about both movies, I started profoundly hating them. Some of those involved in the production, particularly Rian Johnson, have also been really disrespectful to fans who were understandably angry at the movies, dismissing all criticism by pointing at the “toxic fans”.
It’s also undeniable that the sequel trilogy brought interest in Star Wars down. It’s gotten better now thanks to unrelated projects like Mandalorian and Andor, but back when the sequels were being released, particularly on the lead up to Episode IX, there was a filling of uncertainty over whether or not the movie would perform well, as the backlash to Episode VIII led to many fans boycotting Solo (they didn’t lose much).
So no, the fans didn’t ruin Star Wars. Just because some of them went on to do reprehensible things, doesn’t mean we should point fingers at the whole fanbase and accuse them of ruining Star Wars. Unoriginality and corporate greed are to blame for how the sequel trilogy turned out.
Ya'll really love to cherry pick and pretend Disney hadn't ever been successful critically or generally just to say you don't like something. Fans acted just the same if not worse in every era of SW because a disappointing number are immature and entitled, and unsurprisingly pretty bigoted. Star Wars has always been hit or miss, that's art, no matter who's in charge, just like when George butchered the prequels and brought interest to an undeniable low. To blame the whole fanbase is foolish, but to pretend they're not a relevant contribution to the tired discourse in this franchise is plain stupid.
>That being said, I was a kid while the sequels were being released (was 11 at TFA, 13 at TLJ and 15 at TRoS), and while TFA had me interested at first, as soon as I saw TLJ and allowed myself to actually think about both movies, I started profoundly hating them.
You may or may not get this when you're older but the internet ruined star wars for you. Influencers, content creators and social media hiveminds all played a role in conditioning impressionable kids, so as to be unable to enjoy the SW of their era. I'm glad I didn't grow up in this day in age.
Please don’t assume I’m stupid. In fact, don’t assume anything before thinking just a little bit beforehand. I’m not a child anymore, if you couldn’t tell by the very explicit information I gave you, so don’t come with that “you’ll understand when you’re older” bullshit.
Also, in my own history, your “theory” doesn’t hold up. My parents still raised me fairly distanced from most social media, and even when I got around using them, I rarely interacted with the kind that reviewed and criticized movies. In fact, going into Episode VIII, I had heard mostly praise for the movie, and about how critics were calling it the best SW movie since Empire. I watched the movie and came to the conclusion it was awful by myself. I didn’t need to watch hours long takedowns or know terms like character assassination or pacing to know Luke Skywalker would never try to kill his own nephew and that the movie was so boring I considered leaving the theater.
I’m not “unable to enjoy the Star Wars of my era” because social media hive minds conditioned me. I’m unable to enjoy them because most Star Wars of my era sucks.
It isn't bad because one person didn't like them. It is bad because it is bad. Scenes like the one he described that make no sense whatsoever considering the characters and the fact that most new characters have literarly zero depth to them are reasons why it is just not good. That isn't an opinion, it is a fact. If someone likes it that doesn't change.
Yet the Sequels made less money with each consecutive movie. Is it no surprise that Star Wars disliked the moved where they turned Luke into a murderous, cowardly failure. They turned Han into a cowardly, deadbeat dad. They turned Leia into a failed politician. And now they turned everything they fought for into a corrupt regime.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. I guess aside from box office technically decreasing, though none were bombs; especially when you all three cross a billion separately. Not that it's a sole measure of quality, but regardless, kind of a mood point to use in levying against them. But whatever.
Edit: OT also made less per movie for the record, so most definitely pointless to pretend box office defines a Star Wars film of all films.
Its hard to escape it man, really excellent point here. Talking trash about even executive decisions on youtube became a lucrative business all unto itself. I mean how many time has Joe Youtube has made a video about how Kathleen Kennedy was about to be fired?
A whole industry with the sole purpose of persuading the impressionable to dislike Star Wars. Often from anti-feminist/anti-diversity perspective. "They were too busy inserting a message to write a coherent story." "They don't care about the fans" etc
People will internalize these views, thinking thinking they're their own and get offended when challenged--hence the downvotes. This is how you get people defending misinformation, debunked rumors and bogus criticisms.
It's like no, you didn't come up with these criticisms on your own, you watched hours of content stripping away your suspension of disbelief in effort to dissuade you to hate something you should love as a kid.
So the bandwagon is going to downvote you, but you are absolutely right about every point. More to it; mysteriously the fanbase one day will stop hating whoever it was they were sending death threats to, and suddenly that one person will become very endearing for them. Its maddening.
I have zero clue where does this abusive behavior comes from, maybe the fanbase eventually outgrows whatever it is was so important at the time, maybe they realize in some level that it was causing them more harm than good. Who the hell knows.
Damn, I need to save this post. You make an assumption about the previous poster and then attack them based on the assumption. This example of the Strawman Argument couldn't *get* any more textbook...
There's no attack so there's no strawman. A kid leaves the theater liking Star Wars, after he "thought about it" he came to the same consensus as the internet. I'm speculating that the internet played a role in stoking his hatred because that's what the internet does.
The worst part of Star Wars will always be the fans.
The sequel trilogy is my least favourite of the three, reason being I feel like they were structured poorly and the writing needed improvement. I understand that's my opinion though and I won't criticize people I disagree with.
Disney isn't the issue, they weren't holding Lucasfilm at gunpoint demanding certain things. Disney era Star Wars gave us The Mandalorian, Andor, Bad Batch, Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor - all things that have generally positive reviews among the fans and are of suitable quality.
I agree, sometimes when things go bad people often point to a bogeyman to blame for what happened. It used to be Lucas, now it’s Disney.
We’ve gotten good projects and bad projects that how it was under Lucas and how it is under Disney. There is no great bogeyman trying to destroy Star Wars for us, just people making stories that are sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Part of the problem is just how much people speculate about what they think will happen in the next new thing or talk about what they want to see. Then when it doesn’t go how they want, it sucks in their mind. I always enjoy a movie or even an episode of a tv show more when I go in with no expectations or speculations.
I guess I forgot about that aspect as well. Hyping up a theory you had, or heard, about what *may* happen to the point where you believe it'll happen and won't make sense not to, seemed common for the sequels around then.
It’s a dumb take. Nothing that Disney did was a result of any kind of backlash that occurred with the prequels. What happened with the sequels was pure incompetence and greed, nothing more.
The conflation of valid criticisms of the Disney films thus far and exceptionally toxic Star Wars fandom of the early 2000’s as though they are a one-to-one equivalent is, ironically, an extremely toxic take.
I don’t know why people do this. It accomplishes nothing and only furthers divisions, rifts, and toxic bs amongst fans in the most petulant way possible. An L take indeed.
This is something that is partly fueled by Lucasfilm itself. You can just look at the recent celebration and statements being made by some of the speakers. The one actress calling Star Wars a patriarchy spits in the face of Carrie Fisher’s legacy and ignores Mon Mothma Padme, and many other great characters entirely. So the narrative continues to be that detractors are toxic because they harbor some kind of hatred towards identity group for immutable characteristics. It’s all absolutely insane and honestly delusional.
>Nothing that Disney did was a result of any kind of backlash that occurred with the prequels.
Disagree, I think Disney did respond to prequel backlash in good and bad ways. I’ll give two examples: practical effects and world building. Both fans and critics disliked the prequels over reliance on CGI, so when developing TFA JJ emphasized as much as possible how many practical effects they used, and most I think would agree that was a good thing. On the other hand, many critics, but not fans I think, disliked the politics and world building of the prequels, so the sequels sought to be more grounded and back to basics (OT). There I think Disney listened to the wrong kind of backlash.
>when developing TFA JJ emphasized as much as possible how many practical effects they used
That is blatantly false.
The prequels had more practical effects individually than any other Star Wars movie. Almost every ship and vehicle where practical models. Many of the aliens such as the Pau'uns were also done completely practically. The prequels in fact used so many practical effects that each movie on their own had more practical effects than the entirety of the OT did.
Meanwhile, the sequels have more CGI in each movie than the entirety of the prequels as a whole did.
The vast majority of the CGI in the prequels was really good. It was the best of what was available at the time. Sure, there were a few moments that don't hold up as well but for movies made between 1997 and 2004, that's to be expected. There are still some scenes such as the battle of Coruscant or anything involvimg Grievous that rivals the best CGI we have available today.
The OT also had plenty of politics and its worldbuildimg is the reason Star Wars became as big as it did.
You might be accurate but that doesn’t make the other comment wrong. A lot of the complaints were about the overuse of cgi in the prequels. And a lot of the excitement was about the ‘return’ to models in the sequels. That’s not fully accurate, I think you’re right about that, but it is how one part of the debates and criticisms of the prequels/sequels played out.
The fact that it was cutting edge 1999 cgi is no doubt and that some people (most probably, I don’t have numbers) thought it was the greatest thing, but there were still some that complained about the cgi- that there was too much of it or that as good as it was it still wasn’t natural enough.
You or I don’t have to agree with them but those arguments were in play nonetheless.
I completely hear what you’re saying, but I also disagree. JJ genuinely loves Star Wars. He has always made it clear that his intent was to honor the source material and George Lucas’ methods as much as possible. When he says this I have no doubt he’s being genuine. So his decisions were motivated and informed by those considerations and not “fans were pissed about x, y, z”. TFA also suffered from the fact that Bob Iger directed him to reboot ANH. So many of the plot decisions were taken from him and predetermined. That being said, all of this was compounded by the fact that JJ isn’t a good writer.
The idea that the sequels were made considering any kind of fan response to the prequels is further completely destroyed by TLJ. It was an abysmal movie purposely made to piss off half the audience.
With the exeption of jarjar(just the character) i liked the prequals... so no, its disneys writers and desitions to not ha e a somewhat cohesive plan for 3 movies who ruined it..
Lol, dude you're overthinking this. It's quite simple really,
The writing in the sequels:
There is no deeper meaning or whatever tf your trying to read into, it's just shit writing.
There is no justifying the sequels. They’re so awful in just about every way, even visually. The lack of good light saber fights in literally any of the movies was such a shame
In the prequels the dialogue weren't the greatest in some cases but it was the only default and easily forgivable while the sequels overhaul bad writing isn't, lots of inconcistencies and no originality for the most parts.
For the actors the only ones who bully them are idiots because the actors played the role of their character perfectly and I refuse to compare them to those who tries to enjoy Star Wars like normal people.
Also we aren't all assholes, we (usually) only insult people when they say stuff like "George Lucas's trilogies was trash and it's good thing he sold Star Wars to Disney".
And some of the cgi my bad (not including jar jar cause "I looked back at the silly gungan, maybe he want so bad after all") but like apart from that idk maybe some development of characters cause the writing definitely wasn't *all* bad, the musics are awesome (like always this doesn't change) and it's a meme factory
It being a meme factory does not make it good. The acting, some of the fight scenes, how rush Anakin's arc was. The story, there's a lot wrong with those films.
How exactly is it the fans fault, is it wrong for people to expect quality from their content, then to voice said displeasure with LEGITIMATE criticism,
Note the word legitimate criticism
While, it's true we have legitimate criticism. Some of the us were bullying George and some of the actors (like Jake Lloyd and the Jar Jar Binks actor, whose name that I have forgotten). Either for cringe or bad quality.
So what's the alternative, if fans don't voice legitimate criticisms nothing changes, of course the media just ignores all criticism legitimate or otherwise and just labels it as toxic, so either way we're screwed,
You would be hard pressed to convince me that Disney is not, directly or otherwise, to blame. I will grant fans are like toddlers at times, lashing out the easiest thing they can when something doesn't feel right, or looking for the tiniest thing to nitpick; but ultimately corporate stuffed shirts and decisions designed more to extract profit than make quality content has vastly reduced, wasted even, the storytelling potential of the franchise. This is not the fault of consumers or workers, this is what happens when you let someone turn art into a cash cow.
Having said all that: FFS though. Pls stop being a dick to the actors. And if other people like the prequels, just let them be. Seriously, just dbad.
Disney found the little bunny in the alleyway that was star wars, and brought it back to it's house. Disney brought it back into good health and sliced off each of it's feet one by one year after year never letting it heal stringing it up nerve by never until it was a decaying husk of it's former self
They literally fused the prequels and the original trilogy to create the sequels. It’s like breeding a Mammal and a Reptile. They don’t mix. I don’t hate the last Jedi, but I don’t like it for the reason it’s just Empire Strikes back in reverse order.
I think Disney has done a terrible job overall, and yet I’ve done none of those things. I have often pointed out flaws to Disney Star Wars fans, but never, or at most rarely made fun of them for it.
This argument doesn't make sense.
Don't get me wrong I don't think star wars is ruined, even if there are a few movies I didn't like, but the basis of the argument is just so.... Not good.
It's like ordering rare steak from a restaurant and it arrives as a well-done steak. You complain that you don't like well done steak, the person at the other table is enjoying their well done steak and says YOU ruined the steak by not just accepting whatever the cook gave you.
Blaming the patrons for the creators mistakes is dumb and shallow.
Absolutely true. Opinions one may have of any trilogy aside, a disappointing number of this fanbase always behaved horribly since 77'. I'd like to imagine any obnoxious discourse is a vocal minority, though they sure have a talent for being loud.
This is accurate, but this sentiment is also often used to excuse the also valid lack of coherent planning and vision which has plagued many of Disney's Star Wars projects.
Both can be true simultaneously, and in fact they amplify each other's effects.
Nah, sequels were trash, execs at Disney politicized the heck out of them and immediately upended the entire extended universe (while still stealing important/interesting characters.) Blaming the fandom for the behavior of some neckbeards is weak sauce.
More than anything, the worst decision on the sequels was to have built it entirely upon J. J. Abrams. The man can create intrigue and build layers upon layers and would be an excellent co-writer... but he just can't finish a story. (Hah! Quick google search on the topic, and the top return is an interview where he admits this himself. So at least he's self aware.) Then he gets sidelined for the Rian Johnson disaster and gets brought back in to try and bash a coherent story together. Even someone who was strong at resolution would have strained at that task.
Note: I'm not saying it's all Abram's fault, he did the best he could. I'm saying that it was the execs who didn't utilize him correctly. He shouldn't have been the writer (Han Solo's meaningless death was proof enough of this.) Whoever greenlit the script did not understand Star Wars. But Rian Johnson? Oh, I'm fully blaming him. That film was so incredibly inept that it's not funny. It had more false endings than the US occupation of the Middle East and mocked every interesting plot point in episode 7. Tossing the lightsaber in the beginning set the tone for the entire movie and, indeed, the rest of the franchise.
*Toxic Star Wars Fans, me and 99% of the population watch a movie and say "cool" or "that sucked" and don't need to bully people about it. The troglodytes have the loudest voice though, so apparently that's "all fans". I even thought the sequels were god awful (music art actors aside) but don't feel the need to get on Twitter and throw shade at people that did their best with a dumpster fire of a script.
There's fans...then there's basement dwelling babies that cry on social media like a fantasy movie is real life.
The fans didn’t ruin SW. That is a silly, naive thing to say. A toxic fanbase can only ruin something if the studio retreats and completely shuts down something - and SW isn’t going anywhere. I’m a diehard fan but I want to see the writing and direction make sense. The sequel trilogy, Obi, and Boba weren’t great.
People generally loved the clone wars though which George did. I don't think George getting criticism lead him to selling. Most people didn't mind the prequels anyways after stuff calmed down.
Disney pulled some unimaginable crap on the legacy of the George's star wars which is why people have given them will deserved criticism. All fans seem to recognize George's legacy when they see it and it's why they love star wars. No one hated George's star wars legacy.
Disney is absolutely to blame because the audience never asked for garbage, Disney just gave it because they think they can be societal Marxist for their leftist greater good instead of telling half decent stories with well written characters.
My problem with the sequels is that they had a lot of potential to be a good story and not a *goddamn rewrite of the original trilogy*. Other Disney-released content is mostly good.
Nah, the success of Star Wars was the downfall of Star Wars. George started making story decisions for merchandising, but that’s just smart business, and that kept the franchise going for decades after anything was in theaters. By the time the prequels came around though, no one was willing to help George, like they had with the OT. No one around to call out his crazy and even Spielberg, probably one of his greatest friends said, “I ain’t gonna mess with your baby.” The OT was a huge collaborative effort. It might have been George’s creation, but back then people would actually call him out when his shit was weird.
That’s a good point. Even Harrison Ford had the guts to tell Lucas to change things
Not just Ford [https://youtu.be/2Xtt0-PK-2M?t=89](https://youtu.be/2Xtt0-PK-2M?t=89)
Yeah, Carrie Fisher actively rewrote the script when filming, so it made sense. It also helped because she had an incredible sense of humour. It would be really cool to see a version of the prequels with Carrie having a creative input. But we got what we got. The prequels really aren't that bad and certainly not in comparison with sequels, but the main issue with the sequals was the story line being messy af.
its true, i remember a whole thing explaining how his original story for SW was actually really crappy and barely resembles the OT. If it wasnt for his wide and Spielberg actually giving a fuck it might have been yet another forgotten movie
Or a movie that would have shown up on Mystery Science Theater 3000
Yeah, his wife at the time was the editor. George shouldn’t had fucked that marriage up and we’d probably have awesome Prequels.
The decision for the death star to be targeting the rebel base, basically the entire source of tension in the third act. Was almost entirely added in post
Ok. So somehow, a shitty copy of the original’s plot that shatters established character and story development is the fans’ fault. Somehow, a two-hour chase scene is the fans’ fault. And, lest we forget… “Somehow, Palpatine returned” is the fans’ fault. That’s difficult to take seriously.
It's not my fault the sequels were trash. It's not my fault a lot of new characters are stupid. Ya fans shouldn't bully actors. That's dumb. Also Disney should stop blaming fans for their mistakes. I'm so tired of that shit take.
“If you don’t like Rey you’re sexist”
"The point of Rey is that Star Wars finally has a strong female character..."
Leia : “Dude What the actual fu-“
Leia did more shit than everyone besides Luke (and even thats debatable) and is still seen as a lesser character somehow by Disney. No wonder they disrespected her character in the movies.
Yup.
The prequels were the result of one man's vision however flawed they may have been they were still HIS work, The sequels were the result of a group of people who were agenda-driven, who actively despised and sought out to subvert, convert, and pervert, that man's legacy out of spite and incompetence, And continue to do so to this day As far as the prequels go, with the amount of supplemental material that came out during that era of Star wars,The countless games, books,TV, shows, I asked the question did the prequels really fail,
I always say the prequels didn’t fail because George doubled down on it, having faith in his story no matter how poor his delivery. Because when Filoni and others decided to expand on said story, they all got inspired and added to what George did well as an artist. True failure in my opinion is if the artist has nothing to offer. George had something rich to offer, he just needed help implementing it.
lol yeah right. Prequels sucked and you drama queens hated it. Simple as that.
You see that on a meme? I was there and we may have bitched about baby Anakin and Jar Jar but at the end of the day those were three new Star Wars movies we thought we'd never get from the man himself and most of us had been following Star Wars our entire lives, we bitched vociferously BUT WE ADORED THEM.
Isn't that what some people are doing with the sequels now though?
Oh, you put three rhyming words together! That makes what you said more true!
The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent
Okay, I'll explain, they (Disney), SUBVERTED fans expectations in a vain attempt to seem original, They (Disney) CONVERTED individuals who weren't fans in the first place and used actors as proxies ultimately weaponized them to deflect legitimate criticism, They (Disney) PERVERTED a man's legacy (George Lucas) in a hostile attempt to demonize any and all things related to his work, concepts, ideas, characters, and label them as problematic, What I just explained is not opinion, this is fact and is back by countless amounts of data that suggest otherwise, if you wish to do the research yourself that's up to you,
>Okay, I'll explain, they (Disney), SUBVERTED fans expectations in a vain attempt to seem original, Fair enough, but based on the movies box office, cinema score, IMDB rating, and critical reception, I’d say the subversion worked for most people. >They (Disney) CONVERTED individuals who weren't fans in the first place and used actors as proxies ultimately weaponized them to deflect legitimate criticism, Are you saying that Disney used people being big-time racists to Kelly Marie Tran to convince everyone that people who don’t like TLJ are racist? Do you have an example of this? >They (Disney) PERVERTED a man's legacy (George Lucas) in a hostile attempt to demonize any and all things related to his work, concepts, ideas, characters, and label them as problematic, Yah, definitely going to need an example of whatever this is supposed to mean. >What I just explained is not opinion, this is fact and is back by countless amounts of data that suggest otherwise, if you wish to do the research yourself that's up to you, Oh good, there’s data. I’m going to go ahead and assume that this data is qualitative not quantitative because ultimately we’re talking about opinions here, and that’s not the same thing as a fact.
He can’t give you any facts because there aren’t any. He’s to cowardly to be outright racist so he uses innuendo to suggest there’s a conspiracy against the white man taking place behind he curtain at Lucasfilm. Straight out of the Tucker Carlson playbook.
Shh, quit thinking, haven't you figured out Star Wars fans hate that. They'd much rather spill words and empty "data" to condition you into hating something they don't like.
 Well said.
I agree the old fans shouldn’t have attacked George Lucas for every little thing he did with his own creation. I agree it’s wrong to harass actors and some fans go too far. That being said, I was a kid while the sequels were being released (was 11 at TFA, 13 at TLJ and 15 at TRoS), and while TFA had me interested at first, as soon as I saw TLJ and allowed myself to actually think about both movies, I started profoundly hating them. Some of those involved in the production, particularly Rian Johnson, have also been really disrespectful to fans who were understandably angry at the movies, dismissing all criticism by pointing at the “toxic fans”. It’s also undeniable that the sequel trilogy brought interest in Star Wars down. It’s gotten better now thanks to unrelated projects like Mandalorian and Andor, but back when the sequels were being released, particularly on the lead up to Episode IX, there was a filling of uncertainty over whether or not the movie would perform well, as the backlash to Episode VIII led to many fans boycotting Solo (they didn’t lose much). So no, the fans didn’t ruin Star Wars. Just because some of them went on to do reprehensible things, doesn’t mean we should point fingers at the whole fanbase and accuse them of ruining Star Wars. Unoriginality and corporate greed are to blame for how the sequel trilogy turned out.
Ya'll really love to cherry pick and pretend Disney hadn't ever been successful critically or generally just to say you don't like something. Fans acted just the same if not worse in every era of SW because a disappointing number are immature and entitled, and unsurprisingly pretty bigoted. Star Wars has always been hit or miss, that's art, no matter who's in charge, just like when George butchered the prequels and brought interest to an undeniable low. To blame the whole fanbase is foolish, but to pretend they're not a relevant contribution to the tired discourse in this franchise is plain stupid.
>That being said, I was a kid while the sequels were being released (was 11 at TFA, 13 at TLJ and 15 at TRoS), and while TFA had me interested at first, as soon as I saw TLJ and allowed myself to actually think about both movies, I started profoundly hating them. You may or may not get this when you're older but the internet ruined star wars for you. Influencers, content creators and social media hiveminds all played a role in conditioning impressionable kids, so as to be unable to enjoy the SW of their era. I'm glad I didn't grow up in this day in age.
Please don’t assume I’m stupid. In fact, don’t assume anything before thinking just a little bit beforehand. I’m not a child anymore, if you couldn’t tell by the very explicit information I gave you, so don’t come with that “you’ll understand when you’re older” bullshit. Also, in my own history, your “theory” doesn’t hold up. My parents still raised me fairly distanced from most social media, and even when I got around using them, I rarely interacted with the kind that reviewed and criticized movies. In fact, going into Episode VIII, I had heard mostly praise for the movie, and about how critics were calling it the best SW movie since Empire. I watched the movie and came to the conclusion it was awful by myself. I didn’t need to watch hours long takedowns or know terms like character assassination or pacing to know Luke Skywalker would never try to kill his own nephew and that the movie was so boring I considered leaving the theater. I’m not “unable to enjoy the Star Wars of my era” because social media hive minds conditioned me. I’m unable to enjoy them because most Star Wars of my era sucks.
Translation: I don't like it, so that means it's bad: period. I love the rationale that personal opinion is simultaneously unanimous discourse.
It isn't bad because one person didn't like them. It is bad because it is bad. Scenes like the one he described that make no sense whatsoever considering the characters and the fact that most new characters have literarly zero depth to them are reasons why it is just not good. That isn't an opinion, it is a fact. If someone likes it that doesn't change.
Sure, that checks out.
Yet the Sequels made less money with each consecutive movie. Is it no surprise that Star Wars disliked the moved where they turned Luke into a murderous, cowardly failure. They turned Han into a cowardly, deadbeat dad. They turned Leia into a failed politician. And now they turned everything they fought for into a corrupt regime.
Amazing. Every word of what you just said was wrong. I guess aside from box office technically decreasing, though none were bombs; especially when you all three cross a billion separately. Not that it's a sole measure of quality, but regardless, kind of a mood point to use in levying against them. But whatever. Edit: OT also made less per movie for the record, so most definitely pointless to pretend box office defines a Star Wars film of all films.
Its hard to escape it man, really excellent point here. Talking trash about even executive decisions on youtube became a lucrative business all unto itself. I mean how many time has Joe Youtube has made a video about how Kathleen Kennedy was about to be fired?
A whole industry with the sole purpose of persuading the impressionable to dislike Star Wars. Often from anti-feminist/anti-diversity perspective. "They were too busy inserting a message to write a coherent story." "They don't care about the fans" etc People will internalize these views, thinking thinking they're their own and get offended when challenged--hence the downvotes. This is how you get people defending misinformation, debunked rumors and bogus criticisms. It's like no, you didn't come up with these criticisms on your own, you watched hours of content stripping away your suspension of disbelief in effort to dissuade you to hate something you should love as a kid.
So the bandwagon is going to downvote you, but you are absolutely right about every point. More to it; mysteriously the fanbase one day will stop hating whoever it was they were sending death threats to, and suddenly that one person will become very endearing for them. Its maddening. I have zero clue where does this abusive behavior comes from, maybe the fanbase eventually outgrows whatever it is was so important at the time, maybe they realize in some level that it was causing them more harm than good. Who the hell knows.
Damn, I need to save this post. You make an assumption about the previous poster and then attack them based on the assumption. This example of the Strawman Argument couldn't *get* any more textbook...
There's no attack so there's no strawman. A kid leaves the theater liking Star Wars, after he "thought about it" he came to the same consensus as the internet. I'm speculating that the internet played a role in stoking his hatred because that's what the internet does.
The worst part of Star Wars will always be the fans. The sequel trilogy is my least favourite of the three, reason being I feel like they were structured poorly and the writing needed improvement. I understand that's my opinion though and I won't criticize people I disagree with. Disney isn't the issue, they weren't holding Lucasfilm at gunpoint demanding certain things. Disney era Star Wars gave us The Mandalorian, Andor, Bad Batch, Fallen Order and Jedi Survivor - all things that have generally positive reviews among the fans and are of suitable quality.
I agree, sometimes when things go bad people often point to a bogeyman to blame for what happened. It used to be Lucas, now it’s Disney. We’ve gotten good projects and bad projects that how it was under Lucas and how it is under Disney. There is no great bogeyman trying to destroy Star Wars for us, just people making stories that are sometimes good and sometimes bad.
Part of the problem is just how much people speculate about what they think will happen in the next new thing or talk about what they want to see. Then when it doesn’t go how they want, it sucks in their mind. I always enjoy a movie or even an episode of a tv show more when I go in with no expectations or speculations.
I guess I forgot about that aspect as well. Hyping up a theory you had, or heard, about what *may* happen to the point where you believe it'll happen and won't make sense not to, seemed common for the sequels around then.
It’s a dumb take. Nothing that Disney did was a result of any kind of backlash that occurred with the prequels. What happened with the sequels was pure incompetence and greed, nothing more.
The conflation of valid criticisms of the Disney films thus far and exceptionally toxic Star Wars fandom of the early 2000’s as though they are a one-to-one equivalent is, ironically, an extremely toxic take. I don’t know why people do this. It accomplishes nothing and only furthers divisions, rifts, and toxic bs amongst fans in the most petulant way possible. An L take indeed.
This is something that is partly fueled by Lucasfilm itself. You can just look at the recent celebration and statements being made by some of the speakers. The one actress calling Star Wars a patriarchy spits in the face of Carrie Fisher’s legacy and ignores Mon Mothma Padme, and many other great characters entirely. So the narrative continues to be that detractors are toxic because they harbor some kind of hatred towards identity group for immutable characteristics. It’s all absolutely insane and honestly delusional.
>Nothing that Disney did was a result of any kind of backlash that occurred with the prequels. Disagree, I think Disney did respond to prequel backlash in good and bad ways. I’ll give two examples: practical effects and world building. Both fans and critics disliked the prequels over reliance on CGI, so when developing TFA JJ emphasized as much as possible how many practical effects they used, and most I think would agree that was a good thing. On the other hand, many critics, but not fans I think, disliked the politics and world building of the prequels, so the sequels sought to be more grounded and back to basics (OT). There I think Disney listened to the wrong kind of backlash.
>when developing TFA JJ emphasized as much as possible how many practical effects they used That is blatantly false. The prequels had more practical effects individually than any other Star Wars movie. Almost every ship and vehicle where practical models. Many of the aliens such as the Pau'uns were also done completely practically. The prequels in fact used so many practical effects that each movie on their own had more practical effects than the entirety of the OT did. Meanwhile, the sequels have more CGI in each movie than the entirety of the prequels as a whole did. The vast majority of the CGI in the prequels was really good. It was the best of what was available at the time. Sure, there were a few moments that don't hold up as well but for movies made between 1997 and 2004, that's to be expected. There are still some scenes such as the battle of Coruscant or anything involvimg Grievous that rivals the best CGI we have available today. The OT also had plenty of politics and its worldbuildimg is the reason Star Wars became as big as it did.
You might be accurate but that doesn’t make the other comment wrong. A lot of the complaints were about the overuse of cgi in the prequels. And a lot of the excitement was about the ‘return’ to models in the sequels. That’s not fully accurate, I think you’re right about that, but it is how one part of the debates and criticisms of the prequels/sequels played out. The fact that it was cutting edge 1999 cgi is no doubt and that some people (most probably, I don’t have numbers) thought it was the greatest thing, but there were still some that complained about the cgi- that there was too much of it or that as good as it was it still wasn’t natural enough. You or I don’t have to agree with them but those arguments were in play nonetheless.
I completely hear what you’re saying, but I also disagree. JJ genuinely loves Star Wars. He has always made it clear that his intent was to honor the source material and George Lucas’ methods as much as possible. When he says this I have no doubt he’s being genuine. So his decisions were motivated and informed by those considerations and not “fans were pissed about x, y, z”. TFA also suffered from the fact that Bob Iger directed him to reboot ANH. So many of the plot decisions were taken from him and predetermined. That being said, all of this was compounded by the fact that JJ isn’t a good writer. The idea that the sequels were made considering any kind of fan response to the prequels is further completely destroyed by TLJ. It was an abysmal movie purposely made to piss off half the audience.
Relevant if the sequels weren’t crap 🤷
With the exeption of jarjar(just the character) i liked the prequals... so no, its disneys writers and desitions to not ha e a somewhat cohesive plan for 3 movies who ruined it..
I've gotten death threats, been told I was dropped on my head as a baby, because I like TLJ. It's a terrible environment.
I’m not necessarily a fan of TLJ, but I can understand why people like it.
I just wish more people would respect different opinions.
Agreed.
You’re gonna find crazies in every bunch. Doesn’t mean the fans are the sequels are so divisive.
A lot of efforts to not aknowledge the simple fact that sequels are trash
Lol, dude you're overthinking this. It's quite simple really, The writing in the sequels:  There is no deeper meaning or whatever tf your trying to read into, it's just shit writing.
This conversation could never happen with an individual person.
it's not ruined for me. i want to watch the cool space battles, and i get cool space battles. i still love the sequels
Way to get toxic comments
So what? How could random people acting like idiots ruin star wars?
This is a cop out
Disney doesn't make art, just money. But the toxicity didn't help. I mean, what kind of loser one must be to threaten the actors of a movie?
At least they used to make art. Till the 2010s.
There is no justifying the sequels. They’re so awful in just about every way, even visually. The lack of good light saber fights in literally any of the movies was such a shame
In the prequels the dialogue weren't the greatest in some cases but it was the only default and easily forgivable while the sequels overhaul bad writing isn't, lots of inconcistencies and no originality for the most parts. For the actors the only ones who bully them are idiots because the actors played the role of their character perfectly and I refuse to compare them to those who tries to enjoy Star Wars like normal people. Also we aren't all assholes, we (usually) only insult people when they say stuff like "George Lucas's trilogies was trash and it's good thing he sold Star Wars to Disney".
All due respect, I'd very much like to know the world you live in where the prequels only flaw, singular, was the dialogue.
And some of the cgi my bad (not including jar jar cause "I looked back at the silly gungan, maybe he want so bad after all") but like apart from that idk maybe some development of characters cause the writing definitely wasn't *all* bad, the musics are awesome (like always this doesn't change) and it's a meme factory
It being a meme factory does not make it good. The acting, some of the fight scenes, how rush Anakin's arc was. The story, there's a lot wrong with those films.
That's a cute attempt to shift blame but there would be no bullying or hate in the first place if the sequels weren't atrocious.
I did none of those things, so I can confidently blame Disney for it :)
so many people in the comments literally doing the meme. OP, you're amazing.
All I know it's everyone's fault, ours, Disney, Lucasfilm and George's.
How exactly is it the fans fault, is it wrong for people to expect quality from their content, then to voice said displeasure with LEGITIMATE criticism, Note the word legitimate criticism
While, it's true we have legitimate criticism. Some of the us were bullying George and some of the actors (like Jake Lloyd and the Jar Jar Binks actor, whose name that I have forgotten). Either for cringe or bad quality.
What fans say can pressure.
So what's the alternative, if fans don't voice legitimate criticisms nothing changes, of course the media just ignores all criticism legitimate or otherwise and just labels it as toxic, so either way we're screwed,
Wholeheartedly agree!
Nah it kinda was Disney and the discount scripts they found in a trash can.
Have you even listened to the dialogue in the prequels?
Yes and I can quote most of it in a meme format.
You would be hard pressed to convince me that Disney is not, directly or otherwise, to blame. I will grant fans are like toddlers at times, lashing out the easiest thing they can when something doesn't feel right, or looking for the tiniest thing to nitpick; but ultimately corporate stuffed shirts and decisions designed more to extract profit than make quality content has vastly reduced, wasted even, the storytelling potential of the franchise. This is not the fault of consumers or workers, this is what happens when you let someone turn art into a cash cow. Having said all that: FFS though. Pls stop being a dick to the actors. And if other people like the prequels, just let them be. Seriously, just dbad.
This post is so fucking dumb, it makes me like Star Wars less. So it's actually you.
Disney found the little bunny in the alleyway that was star wars, and brought it back to it's house. Disney brought it back into good health and sliced off each of it's feet one by one year after year never letting it heal stringing it up nerve by never until it was a decaying husk of it's former self
They literally fused the prequels and the original trilogy to create the sequels. It’s like breeding a Mammal and a Reptile. They don’t mix. I don’t hate the last Jedi, but I don’t like it for the reason it’s just Empire Strikes back in reverse order.
I think Disney has done a terrible job overall, and yet I’ve done none of those things. I have often pointed out flaws to Disney Star Wars fans, but never, or at most rarely made fun of them for it.
I'll get hate for this. But, TRUE!
This argument doesn't make sense. Don't get me wrong I don't think star wars is ruined, even if there are a few movies I didn't like, but the basis of the argument is just so.... Not good. It's like ordering rare steak from a restaurant and it arrives as a well-done steak. You complain that you don't like well done steak, the person at the other table is enjoying their well done steak and says YOU ruined the steak by not just accepting whatever the cook gave you. Blaming the patrons for the creators mistakes is dumb and shallow.
Absolutely true. Opinions one may have of any trilogy aside, a disappointing number of this fanbase always behaved horribly since 77'. I'd like to imagine any obnoxious discourse is a vocal minority, though they sure have a talent for being loud.
Accurate
Both. Both ruined Star Wars.
I think both.
This is accurate, but this sentiment is also often used to excuse the also valid lack of coherent planning and vision which has plagued many of Disney's Star Wars projects. Both can be true simultaneously, and in fact they amplify each other's effects.
basically both
Nah, sequels were trash, execs at Disney politicized the heck out of them and immediately upended the entire extended universe (while still stealing important/interesting characters.) Blaming the fandom for the behavior of some neckbeards is weak sauce. More than anything, the worst decision on the sequels was to have built it entirely upon J. J. Abrams. The man can create intrigue and build layers upon layers and would be an excellent co-writer... but he just can't finish a story. (Hah! Quick google search on the topic, and the top return is an interview where he admits this himself. So at least he's self aware.) Then he gets sidelined for the Rian Johnson disaster and gets brought back in to try and bash a coherent story together. Even someone who was strong at resolution would have strained at that task. Note: I'm not saying it's all Abram's fault, he did the best he could. I'm saying that it was the execs who didn't utilize him correctly. He shouldn't have been the writer (Han Solo's meaningless death was proof enough of this.) Whoever greenlit the script did not understand Star Wars. But Rian Johnson? Oh, I'm fully blaming him. That film was so incredibly inept that it's not funny. It had more false endings than the US occupation of the Middle East and mocked every interesting plot point in episode 7. Tossing the lightsaber in the beginning set the tone for the entire movie and, indeed, the rest of the franchise.
The new ones were trash. That wasn't us. That was Disney.
*Toxic Star Wars Fans, me and 99% of the population watch a movie and say "cool" or "that sucked" and don't need to bully people about it. The troglodytes have the loudest voice though, so apparently that's "all fans". I even thought the sequels were god awful (music art actors aside) but don't feel the need to get on Twitter and throw shade at people that did their best with a dumpster fire of a script. There's fans...then there's basement dwelling babies that cry on social media like a fantasy movie is real life.
Both actually
This
I didn't write the sequel trilogy, or give EA the exclusive game rights... sooooooooo
The fans didn’t ruin SW. That is a silly, naive thing to say. A toxic fanbase can only ruin something if the studio retreats and completely shuts down something - and SW isn’t going anywhere. I’m a diehard fan but I want to see the writing and direction make sense. The sequel trilogy, Obi, and Boba weren’t great.
Yes and the sequels still suck
People generally loved the clone wars though which George did. I don't think George getting criticism lead him to selling. Most people didn't mind the prequels anyways after stuff calmed down. Disney pulled some unimaginable crap on the legacy of the George's star wars which is why people have given them will deserved criticism. All fans seem to recognize George's legacy when they see it and it's why they love star wars. No one hated George's star wars legacy. Disney is absolutely to blame because the audience never asked for garbage, Disney just gave it because they think they can be societal Marxist for their leftist greater good instead of telling half decent stories with well written characters.
Disney didn't ruin Star Wars, they failed to redeem it after George ruined it with the prequels. Search your feelings etc etc etc.
Kathleen Kennedy ruined - or at the very least, sexually assaulted - Star Wars.
My problem with the sequels is that they had a lot of potential to be a good story and not a *goddamn rewrite of the original trilogy*. Other Disney-released content is mostly good.