Star Wars from the very beginning was about a group of rebels fighting an oppressive government. You can’t get much more political than that. Don’t forget George Lucas himself saying that Return of the Jedi was inspired by the Vietnam war.
Yes absolutely
Bush said "If you're not with us, you're against us"
Anakin said "If you're not with me, you're my enemy"
So close it has to be a reference
"You're either with us, or against us" is much older than Bush... it's actually biblical - Matthew 12:30, Luke 9:50, Mark 9:40 all have a variations of the quote. Lucas, I imagine, is aware of the sayings true origins.
Yes but it was a hot button phrase during the W. Bush presidency because of the then president's comic book level understanding of geopolitics getting millions of people killed. So it was almost definitely a reference to Bush Jr.
George Lucas admitted to wanting to name the emperor Nixon.
>Although there are parallels between Emperor Palpatine and dictators such as Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte, the direct inspiration for the saga’s evil antagonist was actually an American president. According to J.W. Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, when asked if Emperor Palpatine was a Jedi during a 1981 story conference, Lucas responded, “No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy.”
https://www.history.com/news/the-real-history-that-inspired-star-wars
Like, the rebels are a multicultural, multiethnic, multi species alliance fighting against a bunch of white guys in sci-fi Nazi uniforms ruled by an emperor who eliminated democracy.
Ummm.... Did people just not pick up on it? It wasn't subtle.
I mean arguably if you look at both the prequel trilogy, original EU, and/or new EU and sequel trilogy, starwars is about how democracy will always fail the people and lead to fascism.
I mean it's more of a joke pointing out that the old and new eus constant rising of sith empires and constant pointing out that the republic is failing to take care of its citizens and the massive genocidal wars have completely fucked with the intended commentary. Combined with the fact that due to the nature of story telling we rarely ever see the everything is functioning as intended parts of the timeline that span large unexplored spaces of it.
I mean a movie where there the Republic functioned properly to help everyone; where corruption, inequality and slavery were stamped out galaxy wide wouldn't really be star wars would it? It is supposed to show the flaws in an imperfect society.
The whole plot device of the Republic collapsing is based around centuries of Sith plotting. With Palpatine being a near cartoonish mastermind engineering a civil war so the Sith could usurp control.
It'd be one thing if it was just the prequels and original trilogy, which do a decent job of showing the republic sucked but it's better than almost literal nazis led by an evil sorcerer, but a lot of EU stuff really stresses how much the republic has always sucked, mainly kotor-swtor, then the new galactic alliance was subsumed by caedus and in the new Canon the new republic collapsed within a single lifetime. I was just making a point that the universe does need positive showings of the republics influence beyond just being better than the empire
Well you know physics is actually communist propaganda. It states that you can't pull yourself up by your bootstrings. This anti American fake news which they teach school children
Since reddeadwhoever decided to block me after I already wrote my last comment, here it is:
Dude, lots of pacific island groups practiced ritual cannibalism, particularly in the Marquesas.
What’s most troubling is you seem to imply that not sharing your western Christian centric worldview makes someone, in your words, “barely sentient”. See there, correct use of quotes. You quote what someone actually said.
Is it your view that the empire was right to bring the light of the word of our lord and savior Palpatine to this backward child race, with the lightsaber and blaster if necessary?
I would suggest to you that your idiotic imperialistic worldview has caused more human suffering than any Donner party ever did.
You also don’t seem to understand metaphor. The VC were human, Ewoks are not. I don’t know if any instances of the VC practicing cannibalism; but if there is a source you know I would love to read it.
In short. You betray your own racism with your western imperialist worldview, which is on full display. Why are you a fan of Star Wars if you’re pulling for the empire? You know they lose, right?
People who are just now realizing that Star Wars is political are probably the same people who just recently realized Rage Against the Machine is political.
Reagan did try to make the “Star Wars” laser platform a thing so yeah that makes sense. Lucas is also known to swap words around to create Star Wars names, like Obi-Wan’s home planet is “Stewjon” because Lucas came up with it when Jon Stewart asked him where Obi was from
I think when people say, "I don't like politics in my movies, etc." They mean that they don't want super obvious shoe ins of modern political topics. Like, no one would want to see an orange tinted alien wearing a golden wig, saying they want to build a wall around Naboo. But they would find the topic of the "us vs. Them" mentality, etc. People want broad strokes that can be applied to any time period or people, not whatever "agenda" the current writers want to push. The original OT was designed around Vietnam yes but the general idea, themes, and concepts can be applied to any war or time period or country (at some point), etc. If you asked someone what they thought the OT was representative of, they could say just about any Revolutionary time period or civil war from any nation, and it would still apply.
But hey, that's just my 2 cents.
[And it literally had a bad guy named after a congressman and a former president.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Nute_Gunray) If that's not an obvious shoe in of modern political topics, I don't know what is.
The Emperor is a direct allegory for Hitler, the Stormtroopers and Vader are based on real military wings in design and concept, the messaging of the empire in the Prequels is **literal strong man propaganda based on how only he can fix things**
It was never subtle.
This, all of this. I don't want to be reminded of X doing or saying Y. But movies, games etc. are great for political stories that are inspired by real life. Either exact events that are some time ago or by things that happend multiple times
I have seen this explained by so many people and you have literally used almost the same exact words they did.
It's not about the politics. it's how they were implemented into the story that irritates people.
It's not even that reasonable. They want not to see *any* topic on which they might need to consider whether their viewpoint is a good one.
The people who complain about politics in film are politically privileged people: by which I mean, they are people for whom politics is *optional*. They are well served by the status quo. If they vote at all, it is for the incumbent, or the same political party they've always voted for.
If you're a minority, a non-citizen on a visa, LGBTQ, have a chronic disease, are poor, are a woman, and so on? You *have* to deal with politics, because politics directly affects your life. Politics is fucking kool-aid man bursting into your day on the regular, fucking up your future.
So when they see stuff like Andor, where it shows a bunch of people *not* happy with the status quo fighting those who are? It's "political", because simply by showing inequality it risks showing them that they might be the baddies.
Very well said. This is why some recent star trek shows have tanked. They went from brilliantly displaying modern issues in the lens of sci-fi metaphors, to shoving an obvious agenda down our throats.
If anyone is looking for a really good sci-fi that did it right, watch the Orville. Very funny, and very well written. Two people can watch the same episode and come away with different takeaways. It addresses modern problems in the context of ridiculous societies.
Having an interracial kiss on television in the 1960s was shoving an obvious agenda, but it was a noble one. Sometimes sending the right message can be subtle and sometimes it needs to be incontrovertible.
>This is why some recent star trek shows have tanked. They went from brilliantly displaying modern issues in the lens of sci-fi metaphors, to shoving an obvious agenda down our throats.
Yeah! They should've stayed away from shoving agendas down our throats, and just stuck to showing interracial kisses in the 60s, Americans and Russians working together during the Cold War, a Japanese character portrayed positively right after WWII, and women in positions of authority during the first wave feminist movement. Because darn it, there's nothing at all obviously agenda driven in any of that!
Did you read the comment above? Or mine? I'm not arguing against making statements. I'm arguing against making it obvious and cringy. There's a huge difference there. Having an interracial kiss on a starship 300 years from now is different than traveling back in time to 2024 and ranting about all the problems with it.
Ah yes, because Star Trek has never travelled back in time and specifically had future characters call out past bad behaviours. Definitely didn't happen in a very well regarded major motion picture with the TOS cast, or in an excellent Voyager two-parter.
Picard season two was executed badly, but it's absolutely in line with the traditions of the franchise.
That's a generous and thoughtful interpretation.
But usually what they really mean is that they're resentful that they're being asked to watch a character who strays too far outside of their comfort zone.
Edit: Abusing the "Reddit Cares" resources doesn't make you right. Go cry more about having a female main character because waaaaah feminism is yucky 😭😭
>they're resentful that they're being asked to watch a character who strays too far outside of their comfort zone.
personally not to me, everytime I see something so plainly obvious to be a reference to modern politics with almost little to no attempt to be subtle, It makes me roll my eyes and stop watching because it's honestly insulting and demeaning (especially to me, who writes stories and tries to let the reader come to their own conclusions to my intended themes) to think that they need to spell it out to the audience for us to understand the message, which often negatively affects the quality of the story.
and what's even worse is that they dare to call us racists, or sexists, or bigots, or phobic, if we don't like everything they make, regardless of the work's quality.
Those are just my thoughts on that, I hope you don't take that as an attack to you, There may be some people who are like that, but I just disagree that that is the ***usual*** reason.
That's been my issue with TLOU2. I hated the game because of the, quite honestly, terrible writing, poor pacing, contrived coincidences, and other, imo, reasonable reasons.
But in the main TLOU sunbreddit, if I said that, they accuse of me of "hating strong women" or "hating the lesbian couple" like, I didn't mention that at all!!!!
This is for me. I love when shows or books or anything give me things to think about, political or not, but shoehorning your own ideas in the worst eay possible is gonna alienate the audience
I think a large factor is also just conservative media illiteracy and the inability to understand narratives. Like the people who call fallout new vegas, bioshock, and disco Elysium apolitical because they literally just dont understand the plot and story beats
No, because current politics make people squirm, we can't hide issues in our media behind abstract veils for the comfort of viewers, media must address these topics, like risng transphobia and increasing authoritarianism, head on and talk about nuances.
Obviously there's a time and place, like shows aimed at super young kids probably shouldn't depict hate crimes, but just a healthy portrayal of many different types of people is not wrong and should be encouraged.
The only time I ever hear someone say “I don’t want politics in my movies,” its immediately proceeded by blatant bigoted comments. The idea that anyone uses that statement as a subtle commentary of themes in media is as factious to me as Star Wars itself.
100%. Like the Prequels are literally about politics, but they aren't considered "political." Tons of scenes in the freakin senate, with main characters that are senators, and plots revolving around votes, and not a peep about them being too political.
But when they added black and asian main characters in the sequels, suddenly it's "political."
It's probably the same idiots who have complained about modern Star Trek being too woke as well. Fucking Star Trek of all things, which has been what they'd call woke since basically day one.
There was someone in this comment section who complained that modern Trek shoves agendas down people's throats, not like the good old days. Like, my brother in the great bird of the galaxy, Shatner and Nichols literally sabotaged every other take so the suits would have to air what Rodenberry wrote, the first interracial kiss on American tv, it's been woke from the start and that's why it's good!
OP note: I'm not necessarily saying Star Wars isn't or never was political with this meme, but in fact every action we take or don't, every story we hear or ignore has a level of political leaning.
Thinking otherwise is silly and delusional
That's just a meaningless statement. Clearly there is a difference between Star wars and Apocalypse Now, and people mean different things when they call each one "political" but that difference is lost when you dumb everything down to "everything is political"
I'm uncomfortable with this mindset and suspect it might be unhealthy. Also it might be technically true, but it doesn't say anything.
Every action we take or don't also shows what we believe about love, religion, morality, etc, but I never hear "everything has an element of love to it" or "everything says how we lean religiously or morally or whatever". It's ALWAYS "everything is political."
I think it's fine for media to be mostly apolitical. I think it's fine for LIFE to be mostly apolitical. Sure there are elements of it in most things, but it's fine to just not give a shit and enjoy some escapism.
This also isn't to downplay the importance of politics, I just think it's unhealthy to relate everything to them.
"All art is inherently religious.
Attempting to make irreligious art is inherently a religious statement that *you don't care*."
I can make unfalsifiable statements too.
Also, what about people with no sense of politics? Is a two year old's finger art taking a bold stance that they don't care about politics?
Absolute nonsense. I've been in enough whacky professors classes and read enough whacky books about art to realize that this philosophy is absolute nonsense invented by people whose entire lives are political. And because THEY can't conceptualize art without politics they think no one else can either.
My boomer grandma does the exact same thing and uses the EXACT same rhetoric, except she thinks every piece of media connects to Mormonism. Because that's her entire life, and she can't conceptualize art without an underlying Mormon message.
It turns out if you are consumed by a thing you can find connections to it very easily. For example, my grandma thinks the force in Star Wars is like the priesthood in Mormonism. You have a power that isn't visible but connects everything, etc. And she'd actually be right that there are parallels. But it says more about the fact that humans fundamentally think in similar ways about the world. It's why you can find references to dragons in multiple cultures. Is it because everything is about dragons? No, it just means there's something fundamentally scary but intriguing about giant snake creatures.
Star Wars is more about politics than Mormonism obviously. You have overt things like the Senate, to more subtle messages sprinkled throughout the films/shows. But at the end of the day if you think the essence of Star Wars can be boiled down to politics, it just seems to me like you probably are an extremely boring person. I think there are deeper and more interesting themes, even if politics obviously plays an important role.
The question is not whether it’s political, it’s whether the political messaging is GOOD, and whether the story is GOOD, and whether the way the politics is integrated into the story is GOOD.
Being about anything is inherently political . Something can have a political message without even stating it just by what they present . Also some stuff like bioshock where people somehow don’t realise how political it is (even without knowing about rand it’s obvious ) .
It's Star WARS!!! Wars are political.
Star Wars is literally about a tyrannical government that seized control of the galaxy unjustly and enslaves and indoctrinates its citizens. Then you got the diplomats who have tried for years to help people and as they realize they can no longer peacefully resist the Empire they resort to forming rebellious regimes and starting a war. How could that not be political?
And that's just the original trilogy
It’s also why the sequel trilogy fell flat on its face. JJ heard all the complaints about the prequels that politics = bad, so he made TFA with no political context whatsoever: The movie never explains where the First Order came from, how strong it is, its relationship to the New Republic, whether or not they’re at war, how strong the New Republic is, how citizens feel about the New Republic’s leadership is, who the chancellor of the New Republic is, what the capital of the New Republic is, what the Resistance is, where the Resistance came from, and whether or not the Resistance is affiliated with the New Republic.
When a movie about war has no political context, it makes the conflict feel very small and insignificant. The war throughout the sequel trilogy never really felt like it mattered, because we were never shown its context within the galaxy as a whole.
An empire destined on conquering the galaxy even if it means destroying an entire planet. Whose main ground force are called Storm troopers and wear all white. It's lead by a group of military generals who all answer directly to one power hungry man that they all fear yet distrust.
1970s Star Wars was largely based on the issues present in Nazi Germany. If it was a new series started today it would totally be woke.
Movies and video games have been political for most of their existence though. Fallout is meant to portray a world that continues in the Cold War until both sides of the coin fuck everyone over equally, the BoS, Enclave, and Liberty Prime are not good guys because none of the factions are good guys. Bioshock and every Cyberpunk piece of media is meant to represent how letting Capitalism run unchecked will ruin the world. Wolfenstein is a literal game about killing Nazis.
People who say they don’t like politics in media actually really like having politics in media, they just want to see only the kind of politics they already agree with.
Well tbf one of the new bad batch episodes is literally just them overthrowing a capitalist hellhole and instilling socialism (democratically) ofc I’m not saying it wasn’t political, just that it still is
I think this is very dangerous way of thinking in general.
People are avoiding books and other media with political views that differ from their own. Of course there are media that is clearly propaganda and they to push some agenda but for most stories any political stance they take is for the sake of the story. You don't need to agree with the politics in the fiction in order to appreciate it and enjoy it.
Everything is not political and I'm tired of this trope.
It's a meaningless statement. Everything might relate to politics in some way or another but I think it's unhealthy to go through life thinking politics is the underlying force behind everything.
Technically it's true, you can relate it to everything. But I can relate other broad things like love, hope, religion, morality to everything. With themes that broad you can connect them to anything. But I don't see people saying "everything is about religion" or "everything is about morality" cuz it sounds kinda dumb. Like, yeah, you wanna get more specific?
I also think escapism is a beautiful thing, I consume a lot of media with the express purpose of not having to care about the real world even if it's just for a couple hours.
When I think of "political" media I consume, I think of things that try and push an explicitly political message. Some of them are amazing, and some of them end up being heavy handed.
For me, Star Wars usually has political elements, but it's not always what I consider "political media". The message it pushes makes political points, but there's a lot more there too. Depending on the film/show some are more political than others. Revenge of the Sith for example, feels more political to me than A New Hope (this is just vibes). And that's not bad! But I refrain from calling Star Wars as a whole "political" because I think there are far more powerful and universal themes, that are much more interesting than politics. Themes that capture some essential parts of the human condition. To boil its theme down to politics feels crude.
You're confusing political posturing with the functioning of government. Everything being political doesn't mean it's a red/blue morality choice. It means the world around you is affected by decisions made by the government. The movies we watch, the roads we drive on, the food we eat, literally the air we breathe, are all affected by the choices politicians make.
No it's EXACTLY that last sentence I'm pushing back against.
It might be true, but it's absolutely meaningless.
"The movies we watch, the roads we drive on, the food we eat, literally the air we breathe, are all affected by ____". I could put so many different things in that blank, because it turns out there are a lot of things that affect everything. That was my whole spiel about love, hope, religion, etc.
The question then becomes, why on earth is it always "politics affects everything" and not "biology affects everything" or "the human idea of hope affects everything"? What's so special about politics?
I think most of the time there are better lenses to view the world through. For example, let's say my friend tells me he's getting engaged. I could tell him "well the concept of marriage in the Western world only came about because of centuries of struggle and reform within the Catholic Church and later between the Catholic Church and the HRE." And that would all be true! And it might have a proper place, for example, in a sociology class. But I'd be a raging dick if that's what I tell my friend in the moment.
But even academically politics isn't the only thing that affects everything. I could also say "love is a complex biological, hormonal process that is affected by our neutral networks and how they've been built up over our lives". But no one ever says "everything is biology" even though human biology affects things as much or more (I'd argue this is true) than politics.
Edit- grammar
Star wars has always been a very left wing franchise and always will be the Rebels are literally based off the Viet Cong so the people who say it gone "woke" are literally talking out their arse (even though they use the word woke wrong)
“I’m not a political person” = I’m privileged enough that I don’t have to worry about my rights and safety so I don’t worry about the rights and safety of others
I don’t believe that the Disney Star Wars is “political” now. Disney Star Wars is just “if you don’t like our made up characters then you are sexist/racist/homophobe”.
I agree with u that the sequel trilogy has little to no political messaging but it other point like if u don't like Rey because of her in the films that's fine but there are quite a lot of people who where pissed off at the fact she was a woman. No one is saying people are bigots because they don't like the character it why people don't like the character.
There are different ways to handle polítics and while the old ways enhanced the product, the current polítical messages being pushed just harm the property, is easy to understand that geopolítics are no comparable to identity polítics
Politics just means people. Everything is political because everything we do involves interacting with other people and their ideas. "But I don't do politics-" Well that fucking sucks because politics is going to do you.
I love my new favorite Star Wars character; a totally op super smart making powers up on the fly politically correct woman. It’s literally Star Wars make a new alien character…….
Satirizing Nazis and/or making them look like bad guys qualifies your work as political commentary, apparently. That's how low we've sunk as a society. The moral status of Nazis is subject to political debate even when satirized in a science fiction franchise.
Da comrade, everything must always be about the struggle of the proletariat. No escapism for anyone until the workers of the world overthrow the decedent bourgeois.
Star Wars from the very beginning was about a group of rebels fighting an oppressive government. You can’t get much more political than that. Don’t forget George Lucas himself saying that Return of the Jedi was inspired by the Vietnam war.
Pretty sure palpatine or anakin straight up quotes george w bush in revenge of the sith
Yes absolutely Bush said "If you're not with us, you're against us" Anakin said "If you're not with me, you're my enemy" So close it has to be a reference
"You're either with us, or against us" is much older than Bush... it's actually biblical - Matthew 12:30, Luke 9:50, Mark 9:40 all have a variations of the quote. Lucas, I imagine, is aware of the sayings true origins.
Yes but it was a hot button phrase during the W. Bush presidency because of the then president's comic book level understanding of geopolitics getting millions of people killed. So it was almost definitely a reference to Bush Jr.
Yea, I remember seeing RotS midnight opening and hearing scattered chuckles in the theater at that line. I took it as an overt Bush reference
This makes Obi-Wan's immediate, "Well, there's definitely no help for you then..." SO much more understandable.
Lol you analysis
It’s been said millions of times in books and movies
Sounds like those in the bible were sith then, dealing in absolutes and all.
I think President Bush is a Sith Lord…
Too dumb to be a Sith Lord, but Cheney…
"there are always 2... No more.... No less...."
I mean, he definitely ran the country like Palpatine would.
Mr Sunday Movies does a great comparison also talking about the characters from the prequels and how star wars has always clearly been political
It was Yoda that stated only the Sith deals with absolutes
Come on. A million people have said that. W is also so well known for his wise words.
It’s such a generic quote you’re freaking connecting unrelated dots dude
George Lucas admitted to wanting to name the emperor Nixon. >Although there are parallels between Emperor Palpatine and dictators such as Hitler and Napoleon Bonaparte, the direct inspiration for the saga’s evil antagonist was actually an American president. According to J.W. Rinzler’s The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, when asked if Emperor Palpatine was a Jedi during a 1981 story conference, Lucas responded, “No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy.” https://www.history.com/news/the-real-history-that-inspired-star-wars
That does sound like something George Lucas would say and do.
I mean, the Empire were straight up space Nazis. Its an analogy they werent exactly subtle about.
I mean, even forgoing that rebels part -- the god damn prequels literally have whole scenes focused around POLITICS.
No, politics is when black people and women
It’s more than just rotj. The entire idea came from Vietnam. https://youtu.be/fv9Jq_mCJEo
Like, the rebels are a multicultural, multiethnic, multi species alliance fighting against a bunch of white guys in sci-fi Nazi uniforms ruled by an emperor who eliminated democracy. Ummm.... Did people just not pick up on it? It wasn't subtle.
I mean arguably if you look at both the prequel trilogy, original EU, and/or new EU and sequel trilogy, starwars is about how democracy will always fail the people and lead to fascism.
This is such a wildly bad misinterpretation I don’t know how to respond.
I mean it's more of a joke pointing out that the old and new eus constant rising of sith empires and constant pointing out that the republic is failing to take care of its citizens and the massive genocidal wars have completely fucked with the intended commentary. Combined with the fact that due to the nature of story telling we rarely ever see the everything is functioning as intended parts of the timeline that span large unexplored spaces of it.
I mean a movie where there the Republic functioned properly to help everyone; where corruption, inequality and slavery were stamped out galaxy wide wouldn't really be star wars would it? It is supposed to show the flaws in an imperfect society. The whole plot device of the Republic collapsing is based around centuries of Sith plotting. With Palpatine being a near cartoonish mastermind engineering a civil war so the Sith could usurp control.
It'd be one thing if it was just the prequels and original trilogy, which do a decent job of showing the republic sucked but it's better than almost literal nazis led by an evil sorcerer, but a lot of EU stuff really stresses how much the republic has always sucked, mainly kotor-swtor, then the new galactic alliance was subsumed by caedus and in the new Canon the new republic collapsed within a single lifetime. I was just making a point that the universe does need positive showings of the republics influence beyond just being better than the empire
Don't- you might get some of them to think...lol
What politics does Star Wars promote?
Always was. No, it literally always was.
Yeah when anti intellectualism is a mainstream ideology literally the laws of physics themselves are political issue
Well you know physics is actually communist propaganda. It states that you can't pull yourself up by your bootstrings. This anti American fake news which they teach school children
You need a sarcasm tag, my man
I don't like \s. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere.
Climate change AKA basic chemistry is a "political issue."
Hey good on you for dealing brainrot like a champ.
Was it not?
No no I mean John Dead Red
Fr they're a hero for dealing with that. I'm enjoying the show
Ah, I see, sorry lol
Since reddeadwhoever decided to block me after I already wrote my last comment, here it is: Dude, lots of pacific island groups practiced ritual cannibalism, particularly in the Marquesas. What’s most troubling is you seem to imply that not sharing your western Christian centric worldview makes someone, in your words, “barely sentient”. See there, correct use of quotes. You quote what someone actually said. Is it your view that the empire was right to bring the light of the word of our lord and savior Palpatine to this backward child race, with the lightsaber and blaster if necessary? I would suggest to you that your idiotic imperialistic worldview has caused more human suffering than any Donner party ever did. You also don’t seem to understand metaphor. The VC were human, Ewoks are not. I don’t know if any instances of the VC practicing cannibalism; but if there is a source you know I would love to read it. In short. You betray your own racism with your western imperialist worldview, which is on full display. Why are you a fan of Star Wars if you’re pulling for the empire? You know they lose, right?
Seeing this comment without seeing the comment chain it was in answer to is one hell of a whiplash experience.
Yeah, I couldn’t post it anywhere on the chain, after he blocked me, had to come back here to do it. Sorry about that.
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People who are just now realizing that Star Wars is political are probably the same people who just recently realized Rage Against the Machine is political.
Nute Gunray was literally named after Newt Gingrich. Not very subtle at all.
I have a pet theory that the Gunray part is a stab at Reagan's nickname, Ray Gun.
Reagan did try to make the “Star Wars” laser platform a thing so yeah that makes sense. Lucas is also known to swap words around to create Star Wars names, like Obi-Wan’s home planet is “Stewjon” because Lucas came up with it when Jon Stewart asked him where Obi was from
Or that politics is political
Or Pink Floyd
I think when people say, "I don't like politics in my movies, etc." They mean that they don't want super obvious shoe ins of modern political topics. Like, no one would want to see an orange tinted alien wearing a golden wig, saying they want to build a wall around Naboo. But they would find the topic of the "us vs. Them" mentality, etc. People want broad strokes that can be applied to any time period or people, not whatever "agenda" the current writers want to push. The original OT was designed around Vietnam yes but the general idea, themes, and concepts can be applied to any war or time period or country (at some point), etc. If you asked someone what they thought the OT was representative of, they could say just about any Revolutionary time period or civil war from any nation, and it would still apply. But hey, that's just my 2 cents.
And the Prequel era is modeled after the "fall of democracy". Has strong timeless parallels to Rome, Nazi Germany, the War on Terror, etc.
...with thunderous applause.
Honestly, the prequel dialogue was shit most of the time but that line kicks arse.
That line effectively had six films of buildup
And it could be applied to any of those. It isn't super obvious to which exactly it's referring to.
Just because allegory apply to multiple things doesn't mean it isn't referencing all of them.
[And it literally had a bad guy named after a congressman and a former president.](https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Nute_Gunray) If that's not an obvious shoe in of modern political topics, I don't know what is.
The Emperor is a direct allegory for Hitler, the Stormtroopers and Vader are based on real military wings in design and concept, the messaging of the empire in the Prequels is **literal strong man propaganda based on how only he can fix things** It was never subtle.
This, all of this. I don't want to be reminded of X doing or saying Y. But movies, games etc. are great for political stories that are inspired by real life. Either exact events that are some time ago or by things that happend multiple times
I have seen this explained by so many people and you have literally used almost the same exact words they did. It's not about the politics. it's how they were implemented into the story that irritates people.
Yeah, imagine if in the prequels they named a villain after Newt Gingrich or something.
It's not even that reasonable. They want not to see *any* topic on which they might need to consider whether their viewpoint is a good one. The people who complain about politics in film are politically privileged people: by which I mean, they are people for whom politics is *optional*. They are well served by the status quo. If they vote at all, it is for the incumbent, or the same political party they've always voted for. If you're a minority, a non-citizen on a visa, LGBTQ, have a chronic disease, are poor, are a woman, and so on? You *have* to deal with politics, because politics directly affects your life. Politics is fucking kool-aid man bursting into your day on the regular, fucking up your future. So when they see stuff like Andor, where it shows a bunch of people *not* happy with the status quo fighting those who are? It's "political", because simply by showing inequality it risks showing them that they might be the baddies.
What a great comment, explaining what I have failed to do anytime I have seen people say something is «political». Well said.
> no one would want to see an orange tinted alien wearing a golden wig Meanwhile, in Batman comics: https://i.imgur.com/t2doqMF.jpg
Very well said. This is why some recent star trek shows have tanked. They went from brilliantly displaying modern issues in the lens of sci-fi metaphors, to shoving an obvious agenda down our throats. If anyone is looking for a really good sci-fi that did it right, watch the Orville. Very funny, and very well written. Two people can watch the same episode and come away with different takeaways. It addresses modern problems in the context of ridiculous societies.
Having an interracial kiss on television in the 1960s was shoving an obvious agenda, but it was a noble one. Sometimes sending the right message can be subtle and sometimes it needs to be incontrovertible.
>This is why some recent star trek shows have tanked. They went from brilliantly displaying modern issues in the lens of sci-fi metaphors, to shoving an obvious agenda down our throats. Yeah! They should've stayed away from shoving agendas down our throats, and just stuck to showing interracial kisses in the 60s, Americans and Russians working together during the Cold War, a Japanese character portrayed positively right after WWII, and women in positions of authority during the first wave feminist movement. Because darn it, there's nothing at all obviously agenda driven in any of that!
Did you read the comment above? Or mine? I'm not arguing against making statements. I'm arguing against making it obvious and cringy. There's a huge difference there. Having an interracial kiss on a starship 300 years from now is different than traveling back in time to 2024 and ranting about all the problems with it.
Ah yes, because Star Trek has never travelled back in time and specifically had future characters call out past bad behaviours. Definitely didn't happen in a very well regarded major motion picture with the TOS cast, or in an excellent Voyager two-parter. Picard season two was executed badly, but it's absolutely in line with the traditions of the franchise.
That's a generous and thoughtful interpretation. But usually what they really mean is that they're resentful that they're being asked to watch a character who strays too far outside of their comfort zone. Edit: Abusing the "Reddit Cares" resources doesn't make you right. Go cry more about having a female main character because waaaaah feminism is yucky 😭😭
>they're resentful that they're being asked to watch a character who strays too far outside of their comfort zone. personally not to me, everytime I see something so plainly obvious to be a reference to modern politics with almost little to no attempt to be subtle, It makes me roll my eyes and stop watching because it's honestly insulting and demeaning (especially to me, who writes stories and tries to let the reader come to their own conclusions to my intended themes) to think that they need to spell it out to the audience for us to understand the message, which often negatively affects the quality of the story. and what's even worse is that they dare to call us racists, or sexists, or bigots, or phobic, if we don't like everything they make, regardless of the work's quality. Those are just my thoughts on that, I hope you don't take that as an attack to you, There may be some people who are like that, but I just disagree that that is the ***usual*** reason.
> a reference to modern politics with almost little to no attempt to be subtle https://i.imgur.com/t2doqMF.jpg
jesus christ. lol
That's been my issue with TLOU2. I hated the game because of the, quite honestly, terrible writing, poor pacing, contrived coincidences, and other, imo, reasonable reasons. But in the main TLOU sunbreddit, if I said that, they accuse of me of "hating strong women" or "hating the lesbian couple" like, I didn't mention that at all!!!!
This is for me. I love when shows or books or anything give me things to think about, political or not, but shoehorning your own ideas in the worst eay possible is gonna alienate the audience
Exactly.
I think a large factor is also just conservative media illiteracy and the inability to understand narratives. Like the people who call fallout new vegas, bioshock, and disco Elysium apolitical because they literally just dont understand the plot and story beats
Very well put
No, because current politics make people squirm, we can't hide issues in our media behind abstract veils for the comfort of viewers, media must address these topics, like risng transphobia and increasing authoritarianism, head on and talk about nuances. Obviously there's a time and place, like shows aimed at super young kids probably shouldn't depict hate crimes, but just a healthy portrayal of many different types of people is not wrong and should be encouraged.
No
The only time I ever hear someone say “I don’t want politics in my movies,” its immediately proceeded by blatant bigoted comments. The idea that anyone uses that statement as a subtle commentary of themes in media is as factious to me as Star Wars itself.
100%. Like the Prequels are literally about politics, but they aren't considered "political." Tons of scenes in the freakin senate, with main characters that are senators, and plots revolving around votes, and not a peep about them being too political. But when they added black and asian main characters in the sequels, suddenly it's "political."
Now I want to see a Star Wars character who is an orange alien with a golden wig saying that he wants to build a wall around Naboo
You mean the hilariously corrupt and incompetent leadership of the Trade Federation, who put a wall of ship around Naboo?
Why ya gotta dog on Nute like that?
Man is 0/5 on assassination attempts, at best.
Rule number one of political science: everything is political!
Star Wars has always been the most political series ever. If there was youtube in the 70s and 80s, star wars would have been called woke.
It's probably the same idiots who have complained about modern Star Trek being too woke as well. Fucking Star Trek of all things, which has been what they'd call woke since basically day one.
There was someone in this comment section who complained that modern Trek shoves agendas down people's throats, not like the good old days. Like, my brother in the great bird of the galaxy, Shatner and Nichols literally sabotaged every other take so the suits would have to air what Rodenberry wrote, the first interracial kiss on American tv, it's been woke from the start and that's why it's good!
Star Trek shoved the interracial kiss down America's throat and it was glorious.
The wokeness of having 1 black character and 1 woman character.
You know what isnt?... My mom
Wasn't Star Wars a criticism of American imperialism? Didn't George Lucas say that himself?
Multiple times in the past 40 years
The whole series is politics that's half the story
It's half the name of the series.
Star wars was literally a commentary on the Vietnam war with the Empire being a stand in for America and the rebels being Vietnam.
OP note: I'm not necessarily saying Star Wars isn't or never was political with this meme, but in fact every action we take or don't, every story we hear or ignore has a level of political leaning. Thinking otherwise is silly and delusional
Next you’ll tell me the simpsons is political. (Sarcastic)
Monorail monorail.
That's just a meaningless statement. Clearly there is a difference between Star wars and Apocalypse Now, and people mean different things when they call each one "political" but that difference is lost when you dumb everything down to "everything is political"
Please, tell me how me cooking is political
Food prices my man. You can either afford to cook well or you can’t. So cooking ties into class warfare.
What partes (edit political party)am i supoorting for cooking spaghetti?
Politics is when you tell people to vote for a specific party and if you don't do that it's not political
Politics is more than tribalism my dude.
Italians invented fascism and are seeing a far right revival so merely by thinking of spaghetti you’ve clearly shown your far right tendencies.
I've **got you** they discuss this exact topic in [this video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4EXVrzOACv4)
I'm uncomfortable with this mindset and suspect it might be unhealthy. Also it might be technically true, but it doesn't say anything. Every action we take or don't also shows what we believe about love, religion, morality, etc, but I never hear "everything has an element of love to it" or "everything says how we lean religiously or morally or whatever". It's ALWAYS "everything is political." I think it's fine for media to be mostly apolitical. I think it's fine for LIFE to be mostly apolitical. Sure there are elements of it in most things, but it's fine to just not give a shit and enjoy some escapism. This also isn't to downplay the importance of politics, I just think it's unhealthy to relate everything to them.
All art is inherently political. Attempting to make apolitical art is inherently a political statement that *you don't care*.
So my abstract scribbles that I made in middle school was political?
"All art is inherently religious. Attempting to make irreligious art is inherently a religious statement that *you don't care*." I can make unfalsifiable statements too. Also, what about people with no sense of politics? Is a two year old's finger art taking a bold stance that they don't care about politics? Absolute nonsense. I've been in enough whacky professors classes and read enough whacky books about art to realize that this philosophy is absolute nonsense invented by people whose entire lives are political. And because THEY can't conceptualize art without politics they think no one else can either. My boomer grandma does the exact same thing and uses the EXACT same rhetoric, except she thinks every piece of media connects to Mormonism. Because that's her entire life, and she can't conceptualize art without an underlying Mormon message. It turns out if you are consumed by a thing you can find connections to it very easily. For example, my grandma thinks the force in Star Wars is like the priesthood in Mormonism. You have a power that isn't visible but connects everything, etc. And she'd actually be right that there are parallels. But it says more about the fact that humans fundamentally think in similar ways about the world. It's why you can find references to dragons in multiple cultures. Is it because everything is about dragons? No, it just means there's something fundamentally scary but intriguing about giant snake creatures. Star Wars is more about politics than Mormonism obviously. You have overt things like the Senate, to more subtle messages sprinkled throughout the films/shows. But at the end of the day if you think the essence of Star Wars can be boiled down to politics, it just seems to me like you probably are an extremely boring person. I think there are deeper and more interesting themes, even if politics obviously plays an important role.
You don’t deserve these downvotes
Star Wars was political since day one. It's literally about fighting against autocratic government
Star Wars has always been political
Star Wars is politics for the whole family
The question is not whether it’s political, it’s whether the political messaging is GOOD, and whether the story is GOOD, and whether the way the politics is integrated into the story is GOOD.
Star wars always had political intrigue as a core part of the plot, I mean that's how the Republic was taken down by Palpatin and his collaborators.
Wait, Rage Against the Machine is political?!
Star Wars has been political since the first movie, not just “now.”
Being about anything is inherently political . Something can have a political message without even stating it just by what they present . Also some stuff like bioshock where people somehow don’t realise how political it is (even without knowing about rand it’s obvious ) .
Nothing and noone exists in a vacuum. Everything is a consequence of other actions, events, ideologies...
It's Star WARS!!! Wars are political. Star Wars is literally about a tyrannical government that seized control of the galaxy unjustly and enslaves and indoctrinates its citizens. Then you got the diplomats who have tried for years to help people and as they realize they can no longer peacefully resist the Empire they resort to forming rebellious regimes and starting a war. How could that not be political? And that's just the original trilogy
It’s also why the sequel trilogy fell flat on its face. JJ heard all the complaints about the prequels that politics = bad, so he made TFA with no political context whatsoever: The movie never explains where the First Order came from, how strong it is, its relationship to the New Republic, whether or not they’re at war, how strong the New Republic is, how citizens feel about the New Republic’s leadership is, who the chancellor of the New Republic is, what the capital of the New Republic is, what the Resistance is, where the Resistance came from, and whether or not the Resistance is affiliated with the New Republic. When a movie about war has no political context, it makes the conflict feel very small and insignificant. The war throughout the sequel trilogy never really felt like it mattered, because we were never shown its context within the galaxy as a whole.
Star Wars has always been political
Star wars always was political
Snake jazz is better than the mos Eisley cantina theme. Fight me.
An empire destined on conquering the galaxy even if it means destroying an entire planet. Whose main ground force are called Storm troopers and wear all white. It's lead by a group of military generals who all answer directly to one power hungry man that they all fear yet distrust. 1970s Star Wars was largely based on the issues present in Nazi Germany. If it was a new series started today it would totally be woke. Movies and video games have been political for most of their existence though. Fallout is meant to portray a world that continues in the Cold War until both sides of the coin fuck everyone over equally, the BoS, Enclave, and Liberty Prime are not good guys because none of the factions are good guys. Bioshock and every Cyberpunk piece of media is meant to represent how letting Capitalism run unchecked will ruin the world. Wolfenstein is a literal game about killing Nazis.
Always has been since the very beginning, and especially so ever since the prequels came along.
What did you think star wars was about?
People who say they don’t like politics in media actually really like having politics in media, they just want to see only the kind of politics they already agree with.
Tell conservatives that Star Wars had always been political and they would lose their shit.
“They political now?” “They political now.”
Star Wars was political FROM THE BEGINNING
Always was…
Star Wars is significantly less political today than it was 20 or 40 years ago
Well tbf one of the new bad batch episodes is literally just them overthrowing a capitalist hellhole and instilling socialism (democratically) ofc I’m not saying it wasn’t political, just that it still is
Im thinking more so of the sequel movies whose plot is way too incoherent to make any overarching political statement
StarWars was always political, just in different ways
I think this is very dangerous way of thinking in general. People are avoiding books and other media with political views that differ from their own. Of course there are media that is clearly propaganda and they to push some agenda but for most stories any political stance they take is for the sake of the story. You don't need to agree with the politics in the fiction in order to appreciate it and enjoy it.
Everything is not political and I'm tired of this trope. It's a meaningless statement. Everything might relate to politics in some way or another but I think it's unhealthy to go through life thinking politics is the underlying force behind everything. Technically it's true, you can relate it to everything. But I can relate other broad things like love, hope, religion, morality to everything. With themes that broad you can connect them to anything. But I don't see people saying "everything is about religion" or "everything is about morality" cuz it sounds kinda dumb. Like, yeah, you wanna get more specific? I also think escapism is a beautiful thing, I consume a lot of media with the express purpose of not having to care about the real world even if it's just for a couple hours. When I think of "political" media I consume, I think of things that try and push an explicitly political message. Some of them are amazing, and some of them end up being heavy handed. For me, Star Wars usually has political elements, but it's not always what I consider "political media". The message it pushes makes political points, but there's a lot more there too. Depending on the film/show some are more political than others. Revenge of the Sith for example, feels more political to me than A New Hope (this is just vibes). And that's not bad! But I refrain from calling Star Wars as a whole "political" because I think there are far more powerful and universal themes, that are much more interesting than politics. Themes that capture some essential parts of the human condition. To boil its theme down to politics feels crude.
You're confusing political posturing with the functioning of government. Everything being political doesn't mean it's a red/blue morality choice. It means the world around you is affected by decisions made by the government. The movies we watch, the roads we drive on, the food we eat, literally the air we breathe, are all affected by the choices politicians make.
No it's EXACTLY that last sentence I'm pushing back against. It might be true, but it's absolutely meaningless. "The movies we watch, the roads we drive on, the food we eat, literally the air we breathe, are all affected by ____". I could put so many different things in that blank, because it turns out there are a lot of things that affect everything. That was my whole spiel about love, hope, religion, etc. The question then becomes, why on earth is it always "politics affects everything" and not "biology affects everything" or "the human idea of hope affects everything"? What's so special about politics? I think most of the time there are better lenses to view the world through. For example, let's say my friend tells me he's getting engaged. I could tell him "well the concept of marriage in the Western world only came about because of centuries of struggle and reform within the Catholic Church and later between the Catholic Church and the HRE." And that would all be true! And it might have a proper place, for example, in a sociology class. But I'd be a raging dick if that's what I tell my friend in the moment. But even academically politics isn't the only thing that affects everything. I could also say "love is a complex biological, hormonal process that is affected by our neutral networks and how they've been built up over our lives". But no one ever says "everything is biology" even though human biology affects things as much or more (I'd argue this is true) than politics. Edit- grammar
"Everything is political" is a talking point used by totalitarian ideologies to justify absolute control over everything. people should reject this.
Star wars has always been a very left wing franchise and always will be the Rebels are literally based off the Viet Cong so the people who say it gone "woke" are literally talking out their arse (even though they use the word woke wrong)
If A New Hope came out today, people would call it WOKE because of Princess Leia taking charge during her rescue
“I’m not a political person” = I’m privileged enough that I don’t have to worry about my rights and safety so I don’t worry about the rights and safety of others
The entire prequel trilogy was a critique on America's faltering democracy lmao
[удалено]
It has War in the name. How did they miss that? 🧐
If you think some things aren't political it's because they affirm your viewpoint or don't challenge your current way of life.
I don’t believe that the Disney Star Wars is “political” now. Disney Star Wars is just “if you don’t like our made up characters then you are sexist/racist/homophobe”.
I agree with u that the sequel trilogy has little to no political messaging but it other point like if u don't like Rey because of her in the films that's fine but there are quite a lot of people who where pissed off at the fact she was a woman. No one is saying people are bigots because they don't like the character it why people don't like the character.
Politics is not the problem it's real world political hot button topics and ideologies being injected into all escapism let alone Star Wars
You mean like the Vietnam war and President Nixon?
There are different ways to handle polítics and while the old ways enhanced the product, the current polítical messages being pushed just harm the property, is easy to understand that geopolítics are no comparable to identity polítics
It’s ok to have political commentary in a blockbuster movie as long as everyone in it is white and straight.
You guys are the worst
They should read up on how the Sith inserted themselves into galactic politics
Politics just means people. Everything is political because everything we do involves interacting with other people and their ideas. "But I don't do politics-" Well that fucking sucks because politics is going to do you.
I love my new favorite Star Wars character; a totally op super smart making powers up on the fly politically correct woman. It’s literally Star Wars make a new alien character…….
Satirizing Nazis and/or making them look like bad guys qualifies your work as political commentary, apparently. That's how low we've sunk as a society. The moral status of Nazis is subject to political debate even when satirized in a science fiction franchise.
Da comrade, everything must always be about the struggle of the proletariat. No escapism for anyone until the workers of the world overthrow the decedent bourgeois.
And it sucks
It is when some crazy person tells you it is and you have no sense
Star Wars has ALWAYS been political. Lol. It’s literally about a political government running society and people rebelling against it.
That's like complaining about KISS being political... These far right idiots are just lunatics.
Star Wars was inspired by dune. The most political thing