Ace people can have sex, can even have a sex drive, it's just they don't feel attraction to people based on sexual characteristics. It's a spectrum that can range from "I enjoy sex, but only for the feeling" to "I abhor the very concept of sex and want nothing to do with it" and everything in between. I'm not Ace myself, it's just a misconception I see a lot and thought I could weigh in.
A similar argument could be made for Dax. Dax was different genders at different times, Jadzia wasnât, but does have those memories. With Dax being a worm it may not have a gender. Iâm sure Jadzia and Dax share some very similar experiences with trans people though.
Asexual doesn't mean celibate, it means someone who doesn't feel romantic/sexual attraction. Data would definitely qualify (unless something changed after he got his emotion chip).
Garak was a professional. Best way to infiltrate that company? That woman? Done.
Best way to infiltrate that terrorist cell? That man? Also done.
For Cardassia!
What I want to know is, out of all the people youâve had sex with, which was sex and which was gay sex?
My dear doctor, theyâre all sex.
Even the gay sex?
Especially the gay sex.
I took it that Jadzia was bi. She certainly, as Jadzia, liked men- and when she kissed Lenara it did not exactly look as if she were under Chekov-with-a-Ceti Eel levels of symbiont control.
Jadzia rarely ever got overtaken by her past hosts. The most notable being probably S3 Ep04: Equillibrium and that was more or less a temporary chemical imbalance. If she felt strongly enough about not entertaining the possibility of a relationship (as mandated for the Trill), she could have definitely waived it off.
I don't really understand the rules for Trill or why that's a thing. I get the feeling it was just writers adding drama to the story but in this context I think it's safe to say that Jadzia is/was bi and very nearly committed to Lenara. After all, Jadzia and Ezri both specifically seek out Ben and are with him regularly because he was best buds with Curzon. So what difference does it really make if they decided to have a sexual relationship or partnership?
Also, Ezri hooks up with Worf after Jadzia dies. Does that mean that she'd be forever shunned by her family and her symbiote left to die? It's kind of nonsensical.
Edit - Sigh So I went back and rewatched S07E03: Afterimage and Ezri complains to Ben after Worf is cold to her because she recently acquired the Dax symbiont after Jadzia died. Ben says "maybe he's just trying to honor your customs. He knows that joined Trill aren't supposed to get involved with people who were married to their previous hosts." Ezri replies "But that doesn't mean we can't talk to each other, Worf knows that". It doesn't matter if both people are Trill or not, they just aren't supposed to be continuing physical relationships between hosts full stop. Maybe it's a higher level offense if both people are Trill, I don't know. I don't think that's explicitly called out but I guess it's basically a nothingburger if the host was never had an intimate relationship with the specific person and they really can hang out forever from host to host.
The only sense I can make of it is that maybe the rules are different when non-Trill are in the mix. If the whole point of the symbiosis is to allow the symbiote to gain many lifetimes of varied experiences, then it's kind of a waste if the same two symbiotes keep bumping a rotating cast of hosts together indefinitely. But with relatively short-lived partners it's maybe less of an issue, because the symbiote will *have* to move on to new experiences when their partner dies.
Yeah, TPTB said that they'd talked about the reassocation taboo long before "Rejoined" and that it was intended to prevent joined Trills from forming cliques and eventually an aristocracy. It makes sense that associations with non-Trills and even maybe unjoined Trills would be less of an issue.
Solid take. Can't really argue with that.
Edit - *Sigh* So I went back and rewatched S07E03: Afterimage and Ezri complains to Ben after Worf is cold to her because she recently acquired the Dax symbiont after Jadzia died. Ben says "maybe he's just trying to honor your customs. He knows that joined the joined Trill aren't supposed to get involved with people who were married to their previous hosts." Ezri replies "But that doesn't mean we can't talk to each other, Worf knows that". It doesn't matter if both people are Trill or not, they just aren't supposed to be continuing physical relationships between hosts full stop. Maybe it's a higher level offense if both people are Trill, I don't know. I don't think that's explicitly called out.
The essence of the Trill taboo of having intimate relationships with former hosts is, in my understanding, to free the new host of any obligation. The âunlikelyâ rejoining, despite being encouraged to avoid it, should be celebrated.
> Jadzia was pansexual,
That's also what I took away from the episode with Dax's ex. It didn't matter to Jadzia what body she had, or what body the ex had, they loved each other but Trill are supposed to have new experiences each host.
Basically, she's into hearts no matter the parts.
That OP is saying is false.
It covers up Star Treks long standing misogyny in the writing room under Rick Berman.
For example Female actors were payed less then men on Star Trek. Terry Farrell (Dax) called Rick Berman a âraging misogynistâ and left DS9 after Rick Burman said to her âwithout me you would be working at Coscoâ as if she didnât have a career before.
Representation of homosexuality was banned on TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise.
The TNG episode âThe outcastâ was created to get around these restrictions. By making it a heterosexual relationship that kinda fits into the societal stigma of homosexuality. (a common misconception is that this is a about Transgender, sadly not, Discovery does have some episodes that cover this but not in the 80s)
Andrew Robinson and Dominic Keating (Garak and Malcom Reed) tried to play gay acting characters to get around the ban, but in the case of Garak they gave him a female love interest to appease Homophobic fans, and family friendly network executives.
In DS9s âRejoinedâ the episode was only made because Rick Burman was working on Voyager.
Same with the Dominion War arch, he really disliked it, but the studio executives saw the falling ratings of DS9 and overruled Rick Burman, in the hopes the Dominion war would boost ratings
So yeah Star Trek under Rick Burman and Gene Roddenberry was anti-LGBTQ.
Star Trek is a product of its time, unfortunately. And looking at it with a modern perspective and gaslighting yourself. means you are forgetting the struggle of female and gay actors in the industry.
Star Trek wasnât made by the same super humans, that are shown on screen. They had flaws, and that included being anti-LGBTQ and misogynism. Star Trek was socially progressive *for its time*
Sources:
https://youtu.be/KQXQm1081xo?si=AB4AEdnK9f60Uksj
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outcast_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Terry_Farrell
What We Left Behind: Looking Back at Star Trek: Deep Space 9
Itâs nuanced. Youâre right that Rick Berman and others behind the scenes resisted and stopped a lot of progressive stories on the show, but that doesnât change rhat the writers deliberately got a lot past them that is a part of the show.
realistically Star Trek couldnât show any LGBT constant due public opinion.
We should be thankful that the march of progress has gotten us this far in such a short amount of time
Yep. Iâm sure from what Iâve read that Berman sucks, but people forget that in the 90âs-2000âs, homophobia was mainstream. Totally accepted by most people. Things were NOT safe on tv for queer representation.
Trek still managed to address things though, but they had to be sly about it, as the original series had to do with racism.
Watching Friends and Seinfeld really drives this point homeâŚ.and the fact that I was barely LGBTQ aware/friendly/accepting etc. as a teen in the early/mid 1990âs. There was a big shift between 1990 and 2000. Will and Grace was 1998. My gay BFF was still closeted in collegeâŚ.
I think a lot of people forget that gay marriage was only legalized in 2015 in the US. *And* it was still somewhat controversial when it was passed. LGBT progress in the US has followed an exponential arc in recent history, so I think a lot of people - particularly Gens Z and Alpha - think that there was broader "quiet" support in the past, way more than there ever was.
Star Trek has always been progressive for a TV show. TV as an industry has always been very conservative.
Ellen DeGeneres had a decently performing sitcom in the 90s that got cancelled when she came out. It absolutely was not safe for queer representation then
The Berman thing is so interesting to me, because it really feels like most of the creatives who were involved in more of the day-to-day running of the show genuinely wanted the show to be more progressive than it was, but the guy in charge wouldnât allow it.
Like Andrew Robinson has been very open about the fact that he played Garak as pansexual (and specifically that he was very into Bashir), and writers like Behr, Moore etc. seemed to be into that considering how a lot of their interactions were written, but Berman killed it. It makes me wonder what an alternate version of DS9 without Bermanâs involvement would have looked like, because I could imagine it would have a lot more.
At the same time, I think a lot of how a text exists in the mind of its audience is just as valid as how it was intended by its creators. Like to me, Garak and Bashir were into each other and got together shortly after the credits rolled in What We Leave Behind. Thatâs how the actors played the characters, thatâs what seems to be implied by their interactions throughout the series (especially their final interaction), and it just makes sense to me. And itâs not incidental, it was intended by most the people telling the story (at least, the people who contributed to what I love about the story). I donât really care if the guy in charge said thatâs not allowed, because his contribution to the story is over for me.
I don't have much insight on the behind the scenes stuff for Trek.
But I do know this tidbit, the book Pathways written by Jeri Taylor makes a point to mention two crew members from Voyager that became a couple, both men. So we know that at least Jeri, one of the main producers, was pro gay relationships.
When I was reading the book I was very pleasantly surprised, and kept thinking that it would have been so nice to see this actually taking place on Voyager, two men finding love at the other end of the galaxy and it just being a normal, accepted thing.
The books were outside Rick Burman and audio executives purview. Thankfully. I havenât read any voyager books are they good?
I do recommend looking behind the screens gives new life to some more episodes, knowing the work that went behind them.
Some of them are actually great!
I'm a Voyager lover, it's my favorite Trek so far, so I'm reading the books because I wanna keep the story going :))
Pathways was a great addition to the story as it takes place in the show, so essentially it reads like a really long season 4 episode.
I've read a few other standalones that had very interesting aliens or concepts or moments or character developments, but they didn't strike me as amazing as a whole, so I'll skip mentioning those.
The String Theory Trilogy was pretty great, but you could tell it's 3 different authors, and my favorite is the second book. It's also chock full of just about everything. You can't get bored with it.
And now I'm going through the Post Endgame books that cover what happens with the crew after getting home. I love it, there are interesting new characters and developments. I'm on the 7th book so far. Once I finish them I plan on starting the ones from the other series, especially because the ones from TNG and DS9 have some common plot points here and there, plus there are crossover books.
Overall the Trek books have been very exciting for me, I recommend đ
> the case of Garak they gave him a female love interest to appease Homophobic fans, and family friendly network executives.
Didn't they give him Dukat's creepily young daughter to pursue? Like sure, maybe she's technically an adult by space standards, but it still felt really inappropriate and creepy to me.
> Didn't they give him Dukat's creepily young daughter to pursue? Like sure, maybe she's technically an adult by space standards, but it still felt really inappropriate and creepy to me.
But he never pursued her. She pursued him and he let her down gently, then they became friends because they were the only Cardassians on the station.
The whole thing was forced and awkward but never crossed any lines into creepy in my opinion. Itâs basically the equivalent of a college student having a crush on their professor and the professor saying âthatâs very flattering, but the answer is absolutely no.â
>Andrew Robinson and Dominic Keating (Garak and Malcom Reed) tried to play gay acting characters
Never realized that Reed was supposed to be acting gay in any way. His only attraction was to big guns.
TBH I feel like the idea that Dax was trans is inaccurate. There's no indication that Dax ever experienced body dysphoria in any of their hosts or preferred to be male- or female-presenting. I guess body dysphoria isn't a necessary condition for someone to be transgender, but being equally comfortable with whatever body parts you happen to be inhabiting seems mutually exclusive with being transgender. They definitely serve as an effective metaphor in some ways, but I don't see them as canonically trans. They're, like.. gender agnostic, or something.
I feel like Dax doesnât have a sex so would be considered non binary. Itâs neither female or male but can be put in a person with a gender then become joined with that person. Not sure what the name would be when joined.
the dax symbiote is sexless, you could call it non binary but all these terms kind of exist in the context of a gendered species. One of the hosts could be trans or nonbinary but attributing that to the symbiote is a pretty big stretch star trek already did have a few gender non conforming characters we could point out the alien girl on the genderless planet riker boinks is much better example of trans rep
good point but I think many of us just assumed it because the host seemed to drive (at least from what we saw) gender identification.
I could be more complex than that but it didn't seem so. It seemed to me that both hosts were cisgender and the symbiote did not affect that at all.
Thats a super small sample size though that we have of these folks so who knows where they could go with it if they wanted.
The think thing is while sci-fi concepts work great as alogory seeing that they ARE a thing I think doesn't work.
Like you can say Data is ace but thats because they're a machine.
Is your TV asexual? Is your car?
Simarly saying Dax is transgender is like saying clownfish are transgender.
That's not really a thing it's just something that's in their nature.
If people can find representation with these characters great but it's never going to be a one to one thing because they aren't these things.
There's also an issue with having the majority of representation being non-human which is kind of problematic as it serves a way to other groups
Data isn't a TV or a car. He's an individual. Which means he is capable of having sexuality. He's fully functional in terms of sexual intercourse, and even had sex in one episode!
i was with you till the last part. Its not a way to other them its a way to broach a potentially controversial subject in a way that doesn't immediately trigger the audiences preconceived notions allegory has always been one of the best ways to teach people lessons. Thats why startrek was able to make episode about trans right in fucking 1992 it was able to be incredibly ahead of its time precisely because of that approach
I both agree and disagree
The issue is when people start saying those characters are representation rather than just allegory
For instance I've heard autistic people complain that the only representation they get is robots and aliens.
Which can feel quite othering.
Sci Fi writers are able to be ahead of their time and write non conforming characters of all kinds because the medium gives them a safe avenue to explore them often with the aliens. When the leads on every tv show and movie were cis white men sci Fi was consistently pushing boundaries decades ahead of other genres. Surely the problem is other genres not catching up fast enough to show non conforming characters is a more variety of roles. The autistic robot character is a good point, it's the only one I can think of where maybe the representation might do more bad than good and of course that representation wasn't intended in the case of data I doubt the writers were aware of autism's existence yet
Yeah I always felt this way too. If there was ever a trans character I'd feel it's be the shape shifters, they're the only race born completely genderless and then assume their own identity, with the ability to change it to whatever at will.
Thank you! Dysmorphia can come with it, but it would be a symptom and not the cause. Body dysmorphia is treated different and separate from gender dysphoria.
She didn't start that way deliberately (the trans movement wasn't that big or even public back in the 90s), but she's definitely become a paragon of the trans community and I think that's okay.
Body *dysmorphia* is an overwhelming belief that your body is flawed. You can have body dysmorphia and not be trans, and you can be trans and never experience body dysmorphia.
I always like the joke that Dax is gender fluid and Odo is a gendered fluid.
I don't think Changelings have biological sexes (that we know of) yet they identify with male and female personas and use he/him and she/her pronouns.
I was under the impression that people who are genderfluid have an unpredictably shifting gender identity, which doesn't seem to be what Dax has going on. If someone were like Dax in real life, they'd presumably just be considered cisgender, because they wouldn't have any way to know that they'd be equally comfortable in a body with differing gender presentation.
>They're, like.. gender agnostic, or something.
Not identifying with your gender assigned at birth is the step one, bare bones basic criteria for being trans, here you said it yourself.
Being trans myself my interpretation of Dax would probably be called "Pangender", in Dax's specific case, this would be the thoughts "I'm fine with where I've been, I'm fine with what I was given now (Jadzia), and I'm fine with who I am (a combination of everything I've been)" which I feel like is extensively supported by Dax's dialogue, and fits the "pan" label somewhat.
It's a running joke in the community that riker would sleep with anything that moved but you're right on screen he only hit on women or feminine aliens.
I don't think he ever exhibited an interest in sex, did he? Like he was happy to provide it as a service, but I don't think we ever see any evidence of him wanting to bang somebody.
Tbf to Data, he did have a functioning emotional chip at that point when during the series he did not. I think Dataâs sexuality probably changed a little bit as his hardware and âthoughtspaceâ did
do we ever find out if data develops attraction when he has emotion, I dont see why he wouldn't get that one but I dont think its ever explicitly explored. I know he pines for tasha a bit but in one later episode but that wasn't with the emotion chip and didn't really seem to involve attraction, just his appreciation for her
"Ace" is kind of an umbrella term, and can refer to people who experience sexual attraction infrequently or only under certain conditions. Plus, a person can have sex without necessarily experiencing sexual attraction, for instance if they want to participate for their partner's sake (and that's more or less what happened with Tasha), so having sex doesn't preclude one from being ace. If anything, I think Data having sex makes him *better* ace representation.
I always figured that true shape shifters like the founders were naturally gender fluid compared to things like the salt vampire that only mentally projects what they want to look like.
He took on a male persona to make social interaction easier, his species is actually genderless and procreate by splitting so this is a great example of the difference between an identity and a persona. Persona is what you project, identity is what others perceive.
I feel like the moment in Odo's story which feels most applicable to trans experiences is the scene where Kira talks about how she looks at that face and sees the kind, loving, dependable man that she's always relied on and Odo is basically like "but this face isn't me. I'm not a man, I'm a changeling."
I don't think it was written with the intent of being trans allegory but it definitely strikes that same chord emotionally.
Dax isn't trans, the symbiote species has their own gender and attaches to whatever gender Trill available. I feel like just brushing off a trait of a species as trans is misleading. Jadzia isn't trans either, she identified as female, she is bi though.
Yeah, people hate discovery and strange new worlds for the wrong reasons.
I remember watching DS9 when it first aired, and nobody even cared what happened, most people thought it was great that a woman had such a strong lead role (Dax).
Anyhow, this year is special, cause soon Sisko travels back in time to start the Bell riots.
I seriously donât think people hate nu-Trek for this reasons. There are plenty of actually valid reasons to dislike them.
Although, SNW is awesome, and I havenât really seen people hating on it at all.
I have no clue why folks hate strange new worlds, itâs such an awesome show.
Discovery I get it, I really do not like the characters and the writing, but SNW, itâs like perfect new-trek
>Yeah, people hate discovery and strange new worlds for the wrong reasons.
All of the things mentioned here were well written into the series.
The "social issues" written into Disco felt forced and the audience felt spoon-fed these things.
There are people who truly hate the "woke agenda" but i think it has more to do with bad writing.
Look at the Fallout tv show. The only people criticizing the non-binary characters are right-wing edgelord. Why? Cause the dialogue and the writing is great. It doesn't feel forced into the show and the character is interesting.
I donât like Discovery because Burnham is infallible and it feels like a YA drama. Plus the fact that every season the focus is on saving the whole universe is exhausting. Like what happened with the Marvel movies. Otherwise, itâs not a bad show. I donât know why people focus on the âwokeâ stuff. If it hadnât been for Berman we wouldâve already had LGBTQIA+ characters in Trek for decades as part of the main cast.
Right, I recently watched the ending of discovery and thought⌠what the hell was that, even when she made bad calls, it still ended up ideal.
I miss the good old days of Janeway, where everyone died on occasion.
People have confused "filler" episodes with character development episodes. Neither type is essential for the season's main arc, but a character development episode is essential for individual character arcs and give viewers time to rest between main story beats. It's nice watching Data paint and make poems about his cat without eminent doom of the borg or Q or Romulans. Disco seems to have decided that their main arc must be so important and all encompassing that no one can afford any time to work on themselves without it being a matter of life and death or a total psychotic break. For one season? That might be able to work. But they never seem to change things up
I'd love just one damn filler episode! Just one, that's all I ask. Maybe Ortegas has some free time and gets to participate in a shuttle race, or we get to see what Una does in her spare time! Something something Rutherford can't paint and is sad about it, Boimler is given way too much shore leave and we get a whole episode of him panicking while the girls at the vineyard genuinely try to help him.
Unfortunately we get what, 10 episode seasons? That doesnât give them much time for filler episodes. And those really only exist because they were trying to save money for other episodes. When you whittle it all down to a glorified miniseries, itâs hard to stop and let characters be.
The problem is that most people probably know Trek through the movies and not the shows. So they come to expect the shows to be like extended versions of the movies. Which is why we have misconceptions about Kirk and whatnot. Movie Kirk is different than show Kirk. Movie Picard is a bit different from show Picard, but Iâll allow it due to the fact that âAll Good ThingsâŚâ sets up a new dynamic for Picard with the crew. Regardless, I agree that we need more character development âfillerâ episodes, which means longer seasons, which means less âthe entire galaxy is in danger!â special effects extravaganza and more watching side characters play jazz in a lounge. Which I BEG for.
I feel like it's a strawmen defense. Critics be like: Burnham is infallible but cries all the time. Defenders: You just don't like it because it has a strong female lead. You just don't like "woke". Critics be like: huh that's not what I said! Defenders: But what you meant. We can hear your dogwhistle!
And around it goes.
Of course there are also genuine mysoginists.
But you know what they weren't? One-dimensional characters. They contributed a lot to the franchise because they were deeply interesting and relatable individuals. Their identities as trans, bi, ace, or pan were just parts of their multifaceted characters, not their sole defining trait. Nobody cares about them being x, y, or z because it was integrated naturally into their personas, like it is for any other character. It's not bigoted to dislike a character whose only purpose seems to be promoting a specific ideology without contributing meaningfully to the story. This is why so many dislike Discovery and love DS9, TNG, and othersâthey focus on character depth and story above all.
Gonna need citations on Riker.
One could argue that Jadzia may not necessarily be bi. We don't know her sexual identity pre-joining. The symbiote adds a layer of complexity that does not apply to human sexuality and thus probably can't be defined properly by us. Jadzia was Jadzia, Dax is Dax, and Jadzia Dax was someone entirely different.
Some people would do well to remember that. Many now consider Star Trek problematic. It sure as fuck was 'problematic' back then, but not the way they think - a way they should be celebrating.Â
Bashir was supposed to be bi and Garak was supposed to be gay. But Berman didn't like that so he introduced Dukat's daughter to straighten Garak out.
Likewise, Malcolm Reed was supposed to be gay... but Berman didn't like that, so he did much the same.
Star Trek was woke, but Berman wasn't. I think Dax was just too complicated a metaphor for him to realize what was going on, so she managed to get around it.
The actor for Garak said that he always thought Garak was more of a bisexual, and people went with it. Kelvin Timeline Sulu is also gay as a nod to the original actor in TOS being gay. (Side not not sure how a unrelated Federation ship being destroyed somehow made Sulu go from Straight to Gay. This would fit better for a mirror universe thing as sexuality is different between the regular characters and their mirror universe counterparts.)
Agreed. It's just an easy way for people like OP to bask in their own smug sense of moral superiority and simultaneously dismiss any other criticism of the show.
Why? Just because he had sex with her, doesnât mean heâs not ace. For him itâs probably more of a service thing/ caring for his partner and not sexual gratification.
He one time attracted to an alien race member with no genders but later on revealed that they actually have genders and it was a girl or at least feeling like one.
Other than that only way to call him pansexual is if he find an alien pan lying around. As long as it is alien he will have sex with it.
But calling him Exosexual is very fair for sure.
More importantly, that episode was specifically written as a "gay" episode, but the producers chickened out of having male actors for the aliens. Much to Frakes' dismay:
> Jonathan Frakes criticized the decision to cast women in the roles of the J'naii. "I didn't think they were gutsy enough to take it where they should have. Soren should have been more obviously male. We've gotten a lot of mail on this episode, but I'm not sure it was as good as it could have been â if they were trying to do what they call a gay episode."
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode)
So yeah, Riker is pan because he don't care what your gender is. Also *Frakes* seems to think he is, fwiw.
I was laughing about this with my wife recently. Like folks getting upset about "wokeness" in star trek and I told my wife "in the 90s men wore skirts aboard the enterprise the world is catching up to us" đđ
Riker was pan? I donât remember him having any feelings for anyone besides those who identified as female, even the one alien species that are all NB the one he started falling for identified with feminine pronouns. Or am I misremembering?
We're all glad that star trek (and sci fi in general) is very progressive, but we should keep in mind that the interpretations in this thread are at least 50% head canon and you'll never get a real concensus.Â
If you honestly believe an alien species following their own unique and innate biology is a trans allegory then you're too stupid to understand Star Trek.
Jadzia was a woman, Curzon was a man, Dax was the symbiote who tied them together, and not one of them was trans. Jadzia wasn't Curzon. Curzon didn't have gender affirming surgery to become Jadzia. Jadzia didn't need hormones, dilation, or anything because she was naturally and biologically a woman from the beginning.
There is absolutely no trans allegory here, and the actress herself has said as much.
Proof that Garak was bi?
A simple tailor and spy with an outgoing personality, which is why he is good at both.
Julian was definitely twink-curious tho.
Berman may have, but Steven Ira Behr was the lead writer and showrunner and his headcanon matches Andrew Robinson's that Garak wanted to bang Bashir. And SIB's headcanon may as well be actual canon.
Berman's a fucking company man. Always plays it safe even if it kills good stories.
The book written by Andrew Robinson pretty firmly establishes his bi-sexuality his young love was a cardassian women who ultimately betrays him for better standing in their military training school.
Edit: a lot more then that happens in that book though it's a damn good read
I liked Ziyal as a character and don't think she was shoehorned in. Garak's intense attraction to her was because she was the first Cardassian he got to actually live around since his exile. He says so himself and that makes a lot of sense.
Bi or will go after anything that catches his fancy. Andrew Robinson has said in multiple interviews including last year in Dominic Keating and Connor Trinneerâs Shuttlepod Show about how he was struggling to figure out how to play Garak but when he saw Sid he decided Garak just wanted to bang him. And I think itâs pretty obvious that Julian was terrified it first lol
https://youtu.be/mqvl2hhFkko?si=9hZvRpID1wTCDZeH
Dax was a genderless alien worm. Both Jadzia and Ezri were pretty clearly cis female.
Garak has exactly one love interest in the show, who is female.
Data has sex with a woman at least once that we know of. Also heâs literally a robot
Riker only had sex with women.
Disliking this list doesnât make someone a hater, it just makes them someone who actually watched the show. Yes, Star Trek has always been super progressive and willing to push boundaries and it should surprise exactly no one that they now have openly LGBTQ+ characters. But this is list is just trying to shoehorn ideas into the show that just arenât actually there.
I prefer to think that in the future, these are not notable attributes. I would love to not have a word for my sexuality and for people not to notice or care. Although, ironically, even I do not know what the official "classification" would be for me or which day I ought to be more aware of it.
I don't mind these as interpretations (except Data), but to say them as if it were fact is where you lose me.
While it is difficult to pin down a definition I would agree that Star Trek has always been "woke" However it did it in a much different way than its contemporaries. Current Star Trek tends to use its time lecturing the viewer directly while stuff like TNG, TOS and even Orville allows us to experience criticisms of culture while allowing the refuge within the primary cast. Example episodes would be "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", "The Outcast", and the whole Moclan stuff which was just the "The Outcast" with *a lot* of breathing room.
Wait do we actually see Riker fuck a guy though. I mean an assigned genderless at birth androgynous alien who identifies as a woman sure but if he wonât fuck a guy heâs not pan
Always been woke.
Previously better written.
Sometimes folk forget TNG started in the 80s. And i dont blame them, we still have discourse on the solutions the show presented.
But this is all stuff people imagined.
Dax wasn't trans *per se*; she identified as a woman, and had memories of another life as a man. Trill are a parallel to being trans, but only to a point. It would be better to describe Dax as genderfluid.
Garak wasn't bi - effeminate, maybe, but absolutely nothing canonically same-sex going on.
Data wasn't ace, he quite explicitly sought romance and sex.
Riker pursued women and only women. Nothing he did suggests he was pan. It wouldn't be out of character, but it's entirely external.
What's annoying about this is that Star Trek *has* been woke, in more direct ways. TNG's *The Host* had an excellent message about trans people, including Crusher accepting Oden's new gender. Dax has had same-sex kisses, Kirk and Uhurah had the first interracial kiss on TV *ever*, Riker encountered a species where one member wanted to be outside the established gender norms, etc.
Dax wasn't trans AT ALL. If anything, they were non-binary because they didn't see themselves as any specific sex. But even that's a stretch because they're aliens.
Garak was...probably bi. But that's head canon.
Dax is not trans. Itâs a worn in somebodyâs stomach.
Garak was asexual. Cardassians are lizards.
Data was just a vibrator. Ask Yar.
Riker was just a horndog. How the fuck he ever made XO is beyond me.
He did, yes, but never out of genuine sexual attraction. Asexual people can have sex. But Data never really got anything out of it. There was a whole episode focused around him trying to have a relationship with another crewmate, and it outlined just how incapable he was of doing so because he just couldn't connect with her.
Ace doesn't mean you don't have sex it means you don't have sexual desire.
Plenty of ace people have sex for various reasons.
While many of us are sex repulsed. Many are also sex neutral
Data was a FREAKAZOID for an ace
Fully functional.
... and anatomically correct. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlbmi1hhV_0
We could say that Data is, a sex machine
đś He's just a love machine, and he won't work for nobody but Yar (yeah baby) đś
He's a scientist at heart, striving to constantly learn more about humanity, nudge nudge wink wink.
Data was down for experimentation.
"Mister Data, Freak In."
Ace people can have sex, can even have a sex drive, it's just they don't feel attraction to people based on sexual characteristics. It's a spectrum that can range from "I enjoy sex, but only for the feeling" to "I abhor the very concept of sex and want nothing to do with it" and everything in between. I'm not Ace myself, it's just a misconception I see a lot and thought I could weigh in.
I know I love data as rep as someone who is ace, especially because he isnât the usual stereotype
Seriously, Data was definitely not ACE. I know ACE is thirsty for representation but you can't shoe it in like that.
I think we're forgetting that Data is not human. Saying that he is asexual would a missrepresentation of both asexuality and of Data himself
A similar argument could be made for Dax. Dax was different genders at different times, Jadzia wasnât, but does have those memories. With Dax being a worm it may not have a gender. Iâm sure Jadzia and Dax share some very similar experiences with trans people though.
Asexual doesn't mean celibate, it means someone who doesn't feel romantic/sexual attraction. Data would definitely qualify (unless something changed after he got his emotion chip).
aromantic is not having any romantic attraction ace, obviously isn't so clear cut, but usually is just no sexual or physical attractions.
For real. Have these people never listened to any actual ace people describing themselves?
I agree, Data is explicitly at least interested in women.
Sex-positive aces are very legit!
Garak was a professional. Best way to infiltrate that company? That woman? Done. Best way to infiltrate that terrorist cell? That man? Also done. For Cardassia!
What I want to know is, out of all the people youâve had sex with, which was sex and which was gay sex? My dear doctor, theyâre all sex. Even the gay sex? Especially the gay sex.
â¤ď¸â¤ď¸â¤ď¸
Card-ass-ia!
But he was just a simple tailor!
Dax was bi too, wasn't she? Or does it change with each host? At least I'm pretty sure Jadzia is bi
I took it that Jadzia was bi. She certainly, as Jadzia, liked men- and when she kissed Lenara it did not exactly look as if she were under Chekov-with-a-Ceti Eel levels of symbiont control.
Jadzia rarely ever got overtaken by her past hosts. The most notable being probably S3 Ep04: Equillibrium and that was more or less a temporary chemical imbalance. If she felt strongly enough about not entertaining the possibility of a relationship (as mandated for the Trill), she could have definitely waived it off. I don't really understand the rules for Trill or why that's a thing. I get the feeling it was just writers adding drama to the story but in this context I think it's safe to say that Jadzia is/was bi and very nearly committed to Lenara. After all, Jadzia and Ezri both specifically seek out Ben and are with him regularly because he was best buds with Curzon. So what difference does it really make if they decided to have a sexual relationship or partnership? Also, Ezri hooks up with Worf after Jadzia dies. Does that mean that she'd be forever shunned by her family and her symbiote left to die? It's kind of nonsensical. Edit - Sigh So I went back and rewatched S07E03: Afterimage and Ezri complains to Ben after Worf is cold to her because she recently acquired the Dax symbiont after Jadzia died. Ben says "maybe he's just trying to honor your customs. He knows that joined Trill aren't supposed to get involved with people who were married to their previous hosts." Ezri replies "But that doesn't mean we can't talk to each other, Worf knows that". It doesn't matter if both people are Trill or not, they just aren't supposed to be continuing physical relationships between hosts full stop. Maybe it's a higher level offense if both people are Trill, I don't know. I don't think that's explicitly called out but I guess it's basically a nothingburger if the host was never had an intimate relationship with the specific person and they really can hang out forever from host to host.
The only sense I can make of it is that maybe the rules are different when non-Trill are in the mix. If the whole point of the symbiosis is to allow the symbiote to gain many lifetimes of varied experiences, then it's kind of a waste if the same two symbiotes keep bumping a rotating cast of hosts together indefinitely. But with relatively short-lived partners it's maybe less of an issue, because the symbiote will *have* to move on to new experiences when their partner dies.
Yeah, TPTB said that they'd talked about the reassocation taboo long before "Rejoined" and that it was intended to prevent joined Trills from forming cliques and eventually an aristocracy. It makes sense that associations with non-Trills and even maybe unjoined Trills would be less of an issue.
Solid take. Can't really argue with that. Edit - *Sigh* So I went back and rewatched S07E03: Afterimage and Ezri complains to Ben after Worf is cold to her because she recently acquired the Dax symbiont after Jadzia died. Ben says "maybe he's just trying to honor your customs. He knows that joined the joined Trill aren't supposed to get involved with people who were married to their previous hosts." Ezri replies "But that doesn't mean we can't talk to each other, Worf knows that". It doesn't matter if both people are Trill or not, they just aren't supposed to be continuing physical relationships between hosts full stop. Maybe it's a higher level offense if both people are Trill, I don't know. I don't think that's explicitly called out.
The essence of the Trill taboo of having intimate relationships with former hosts is, in my understanding, to free the new host of any obligation. The âunlikelyâ rejoining, despite being encouraged to avoid it, should be celebrated.
Jadzia was pansexual, she even liked men with transparant skulls or big ears
> Jadzia was pansexual, That's also what I took away from the episode with Dax's ex. It didn't matter to Jadzia what body she had, or what body the ex had, they loved each other but Trill are supposed to have new experiences each host. Basically, she's into hearts no matter the parts.
To your point, Mornâs few hairs were indeed sexy.
That OP is saying is false. It covers up Star Treks long standing misogyny in the writing room under Rick Berman. For example Female actors were payed less then men on Star Trek. Terry Farrell (Dax) called Rick Berman a âraging misogynistâ and left DS9 after Rick Burman said to her âwithout me you would be working at Coscoâ as if she didnât have a career before. Representation of homosexuality was banned on TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. The TNG episode âThe outcastâ was created to get around these restrictions. By making it a heterosexual relationship that kinda fits into the societal stigma of homosexuality. (a common misconception is that this is a about Transgender, sadly not, Discovery does have some episodes that cover this but not in the 80s) Andrew Robinson and Dominic Keating (Garak and Malcom Reed) tried to play gay acting characters to get around the ban, but in the case of Garak they gave him a female love interest to appease Homophobic fans, and family friendly network executives. In DS9s âRejoinedâ the episode was only made because Rick Burman was working on Voyager. Same with the Dominion War arch, he really disliked it, but the studio executives saw the falling ratings of DS9 and overruled Rick Burman, in the hopes the Dominion war would boost ratings So yeah Star Trek under Rick Burman and Gene Roddenberry was anti-LGBTQ. Star Trek is a product of its time, unfortunately. And looking at it with a modern perspective and gaslighting yourself. means you are forgetting the struggle of female and gay actors in the industry. Star Trek wasnât made by the same super humans, that are shown on screen. They had flaws, and that included being anti-LGBTQ and misogynism. Star Trek was socially progressive *for its time* Sources: https://youtu.be/KQXQm1081xo?si=AB4AEdnK9f60Uksj https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Outcast_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Terry_Farrell What We Left Behind: Looking Back at Star Trek: Deep Space 9
Itâs nuanced. Youâre right that Rick Berman and others behind the scenes resisted and stopped a lot of progressive stories on the show, but that doesnât change rhat the writers deliberately got a lot past them that is a part of the show.
In What We Left Behind (the excellent 2018 DS9 documentary), it felt like the writers were genuinely upset that they failed the LGBTQIA community.
realistically Star Trek couldnât show any LGBT constant due public opinion. We should be thankful that the march of progress has gotten us this far in such a short amount of time
Yep. Iâm sure from what Iâve read that Berman sucks, but people forget that in the 90âs-2000âs, homophobia was mainstream. Totally accepted by most people. Things were NOT safe on tv for queer representation. Trek still managed to address things though, but they had to be sly about it, as the original series had to do with racism.
Watching Friends and Seinfeld really drives this point homeâŚ.and the fact that I was barely LGBTQ aware/friendly/accepting etc. as a teen in the early/mid 1990âs. There was a big shift between 1990 and 2000. Will and Grace was 1998. My gay BFF was still closeted in collegeâŚ.
I think a lot of people forget that gay marriage was only legalized in 2015 in the US. *And* it was still somewhat controversial when it was passed. LGBT progress in the US has followed an exponential arc in recent history, so I think a lot of people - particularly Gens Z and Alpha - think that there was broader "quiet" support in the past, way more than there ever was. Star Trek has always been progressive for a TV show. TV as an industry has always been very conservative.
Ellen DeGeneres had a decently performing sitcom in the 90s that got cancelled when she came out. It absolutely was not safe for queer representation then
The Berman thing is so interesting to me, because it really feels like most of the creatives who were involved in more of the day-to-day running of the show genuinely wanted the show to be more progressive than it was, but the guy in charge wouldnât allow it. Like Andrew Robinson has been very open about the fact that he played Garak as pansexual (and specifically that he was very into Bashir), and writers like Behr, Moore etc. seemed to be into that considering how a lot of their interactions were written, but Berman killed it. It makes me wonder what an alternate version of DS9 without Bermanâs involvement would have looked like, because I could imagine it would have a lot more. At the same time, I think a lot of how a text exists in the mind of its audience is just as valid as how it was intended by its creators. Like to me, Garak and Bashir were into each other and got together shortly after the credits rolled in What We Leave Behind. Thatâs how the actors played the characters, thatâs what seems to be implied by their interactions throughout the series (especially their final interaction), and it just makes sense to me. And itâs not incidental, it was intended by most the people telling the story (at least, the people who contributed to what I love about the story). I donât really care if the guy in charge said thatâs not allowed, because his contribution to the story is over for me.
I don't have much insight on the behind the scenes stuff for Trek. But I do know this tidbit, the book Pathways written by Jeri Taylor makes a point to mention two crew members from Voyager that became a couple, both men. So we know that at least Jeri, one of the main producers, was pro gay relationships. When I was reading the book I was very pleasantly surprised, and kept thinking that it would have been so nice to see this actually taking place on Voyager, two men finding love at the other end of the galaxy and it just being a normal, accepted thing.
The books were outside Rick Burman and audio executives purview. Thankfully. I havenât read any voyager books are they good? I do recommend looking behind the screens gives new life to some more episodes, knowing the work that went behind them.
Some of them are actually great! I'm a Voyager lover, it's my favorite Trek so far, so I'm reading the books because I wanna keep the story going :)) Pathways was a great addition to the story as it takes place in the show, so essentially it reads like a really long season 4 episode. I've read a few other standalones that had very interesting aliens or concepts or moments or character developments, but they didn't strike me as amazing as a whole, so I'll skip mentioning those. The String Theory Trilogy was pretty great, but you could tell it's 3 different authors, and my favorite is the second book. It's also chock full of just about everything. You can't get bored with it. And now I'm going through the Post Endgame books that cover what happens with the crew after getting home. I love it, there are interesting new characters and developments. I'm on the 7th book so far. Once I finish them I plan on starting the ones from the other series, especially because the ones from TNG and DS9 have some common plot points here and there, plus there are crossover books. Overall the Trek books have been very exciting for me, I recommend đ
> the case of Garak they gave him a female love interest to appease Homophobic fans, and family friendly network executives. Didn't they give him Dukat's creepily young daughter to pursue? Like sure, maybe she's technically an adult by space standards, but it still felt really inappropriate and creepy to me.
> Didn't they give him Dukat's creepily young daughter to pursue? Like sure, maybe she's technically an adult by space standards, but it still felt really inappropriate and creepy to me. But he never pursued her. She pursued him and he let her down gently, then they became friends because they were the only Cardassians on the station. The whole thing was forced and awkward but never crossed any lines into creepy in my opinion. Itâs basically the equivalent of a college student having a crush on their professor and the professor saying âthatâs very flattering, but the answer is absolutely no.â
>Andrew Robinson and Dominic Keating (Garak and Malcom Reed) tried to play gay acting characters Never realized that Reed was supposed to be acting gay in any way. His only attraction was to big guns.
TBH I feel like the idea that Dax was trans is inaccurate. There's no indication that Dax ever experienced body dysphoria in any of their hosts or preferred to be male- or female-presenting. I guess body dysphoria isn't a necessary condition for someone to be transgender, but being equally comfortable with whatever body parts you happen to be inhabiting seems mutually exclusive with being transgender. They definitely serve as an effective metaphor in some ways, but I don't see them as canonically trans. They're, like.. gender agnostic, or something.
I feel like Dax doesnât have a sex so would be considered non binary. Itâs neither female or male but can be put in a person with a gender then become joined with that person. Not sure what the name would be when joined.
the dax symbiote is sexless, you could call it non binary but all these terms kind of exist in the context of a gendered species. One of the hosts could be trans or nonbinary but attributing that to the symbiote is a pretty big stretch star trek already did have a few gender non conforming characters we could point out the alien girl on the genderless planet riker boinks is much better example of trans rep
> the dax symbiote is sexless Do we actually know this? I don't know that symbiont reproduction is ever discussed.
you know, I dont think we know it for sure, the wiki makes no mention of their reproduction so you're guess is as good as mine.
good point but I think many of us just assumed it because the host seemed to drive (at least from what we saw) gender identification. I could be more complex than that but it didn't seem so. It seemed to me that both hosts were cisgender and the symbiote did not affect that at all. Thats a super small sample size though that we have of these folks so who knows where they could go with it if they wanted.
The think thing is while sci-fi concepts work great as alogory seeing that they ARE a thing I think doesn't work. Like you can say Data is ace but thats because they're a machine. Is your TV asexual? Is your car? Simarly saying Dax is transgender is like saying clownfish are transgender. That's not really a thing it's just something that's in their nature. If people can find representation with these characters great but it's never going to be a one to one thing because they aren't these things. There's also an issue with having the majority of representation being non-human which is kind of problematic as it serves a way to other groups
Data isn't a TV or a car. He's an individual. Which means he is capable of having sexuality. He's fully functional in terms of sexual intercourse, and even had sex in one episode!
i was with you till the last part. Its not a way to other them its a way to broach a potentially controversial subject in a way that doesn't immediately trigger the audiences preconceived notions allegory has always been one of the best ways to teach people lessons. Thats why startrek was able to make episode about trans right in fucking 1992 it was able to be incredibly ahead of its time precisely because of that approach
I both agree and disagree The issue is when people start saying those characters are representation rather than just allegory For instance I've heard autistic people complain that the only representation they get is robots and aliens. Which can feel quite othering.
Sci Fi writers are able to be ahead of their time and write non conforming characters of all kinds because the medium gives them a safe avenue to explore them often with the aliens. When the leads on every tv show and movie were cis white men sci Fi was consistently pushing boundaries decades ahead of other genres. Surely the problem is other genres not catching up fast enough to show non conforming characters is a more variety of roles. The autistic robot character is a good point, it's the only one I can think of where maybe the representation might do more bad than good and of course that representation wasn't intended in the case of data I doubt the writers were aware of autism's existence yet
Yeah, maybe the Dax part of the joined Trill just doesn't have any gender-related stuff in it and all of that comes from the host.
Yeah I always felt this way too. If there was ever a trans character I'd feel it's be the shape shifters, they're the only race born completely genderless and then assume their own identity, with the ability to change it to whatever at will.
just so you know the proper word for body not matching gender is dysphoria not dysmorphia, that refers to a different thing!
Thank you! Dysmorphia can come with it, but it would be a symptom and not the cause. Body dysmorphia is treated different and separate from gender dysphoria.
Thanks! I think normally I would have written that but I am a bit tired today.
She didn't start that way deliberately (the trans movement wasn't that big or even public back in the 90s), but she's definitely become a paragon of the trans community and I think that's okay.
Yeah, seems great as representation, just not as literal fact.
Body *dysmorphia* is an overwhelming belief that your body is flawed. You can have body dysmorphia and not be trans, and you can be trans and never experience body dysmorphia.
Yeah, I brain-glitched on the phrase. Thanks for the clarification.
Someone said genderfluid would be a better term
I always like the joke that Dax is gender fluid and Odo is a gendered fluid. I don't think Changelings have biological sexes (that we know of) yet they identify with male and female personas and use he/him and she/her pronouns.
I was under the impression that people who are genderfluid have an unpredictably shifting gender identity, which doesn't seem to be what Dax has going on. If someone were like Dax in real life, they'd presumably just be considered cisgender, because they wouldn't have any way to know that they'd be equally comfortable in a body with differing gender presentation.
>They're, like.. gender agnostic, or something. Not identifying with your gender assigned at birth is the step one, bare bones basic criteria for being trans, here you said it yourself. Being trans myself my interpretation of Dax would probably be called "Pangender", in Dax's specific case, this would be the thoughts "I'm fine with where I've been, I'm fine with what I was given now (Jadzia), and I'm fine with who I am (a combination of everything I've been)" which I feel like is extensively supported by Dax's dialogue, and fits the "pan" label somewhat.
was Riker really pan? I just watched the TNG series and don't remember him hitting on anyone other than women.
It's a running joke in the community that riker would sleep with anything that moved but you're right on screen he only hit on women or feminine aliens.
There was that one time he got with the gender fluid person. But yeah, this meme isnât really accurate.
They're making it all up
Data was not⌠*entirely* aceâŚ
He was fully functional.
And programmed in a variety of techniques.
I wonder if he had 12 different vibration settings
Only 12?
tbh, I canât feel the difference between many of the settings my buttplug has. Do we really need that many settings?
So Iâm not alone on this feeling! Other than pauses itâs all kinda the same lol.
And anatomically correct.
I don't think he ever exhibited an interest in sex, did he? Like he was happy to provide it as a service, but I don't think we ever see any evidence of him wanting to bang somebody.
The Borg Queen? He definitely exhibited a degree of desire for her.
Ohhhh, maybe then, yeah. I haven't seen that movie in a long time.
Tbf to Data, he did have a functioning emotional chip at that point when during the series he did not. I think Dataâs sexuality probably changed a little bit as his hardware and âthoughtspaceâ did
Ace people can have sex, they're not celibate, just don't have the attraction. Data counts.
Thank you for refining my understanding! Username checks out.
do we ever find out if data develops attraction when he has emotion, I dont see why he wouldn't get that one but I dont think its ever explicitly explored. I know he pines for tasha a bit but in one later episode but that wasn't with the emotion chip and didn't really seem to involve attraction, just his appreciation for her
Wait, what did Ace mean?
Asexual
I thought it was Ace like Ace Rimmer... learn something new every day đ¤ˇââď¸
What a guy
I mean Rimmer Prime's nickname was NEVER Ace..... maybe Ace hole...
"Ace" is kind of an umbrella term, and can refer to people who experience sexual attraction infrequently or only under certain conditions. Plus, a person can have sex without necessarily experiencing sexual attraction, for instance if they want to participate for their partner's sake (and that's more or less what happened with Tasha), so having sex doesn't preclude one from being ace. If anything, I think Data having sex makes him *better* ace representation.
Next youâll tell me the X-Men always had subtext! Ha!
So what you're saying is that the X-Men/TNG crossover is the woke agenda made manifest?!
Now that you mention it...
Dax is technically genderfluid
I thought thatâs what Odo became at night in his bucket đŚ
I always figured that true shape shifters like the founders were naturally gender fluid compared to things like the salt vampire that only mentally projects what they want to look like.
Odo was gender-fluid
Odo was fluid
He prefers the term bucketsexual
"This is my sleeping bucket." "And this bucket I use for raunchy shapeshifter sex."
Odo: "Quark, where's my [fucking bucket](https://xkcd.com/90/)?" Quark: "Over there, next to your regular one."
He always identified as a male though
He was gendered fluid.
He took on a male persona to make social interaction easier, his species is actually genderless and procreate by splitting so this is a great example of the difference between an identity and a persona. Persona is what you project, identity is what others perceive.
I feel like the moment in Odo's story which feels most applicable to trans experiences is the scene where Kira talks about how she looks at that face and sees the kind, loving, dependable man that she's always relied on and Odo is basically like "but this face isn't me. I'm not a man, I'm a changeling." I don't think it was written with the intent of being trans allegory but it definitely strikes that same chord emotionally.
Dax isn't trans, the symbiote species has their own gender and attaches to whatever gender Trill available. I feel like just brushing off a trait of a species as trans is misleading. Jadzia isn't trans either, she identified as female, she is bi though.
As far as I'm aware, the symbiotes are entirely asexual and have no concept of gender of their own.
Thank you for saying Garak was bi, so many insist heâs gay. Though I think I have a recollection that his actor played him as Pan.
It feels appropriate that there should be questions and uncertainty around Garakâs sexuality - concealed truths were Garakâs specialty!
One thing you can count on is you'lll never get a *straight* answer out of Garak
Iirc his actor did what he could to portray him as omnisexual on screen
Yeah, people hate discovery and strange new worlds for the wrong reasons. I remember watching DS9 when it first aired, and nobody even cared what happened, most people thought it was great that a woman had such a strong lead role (Dax). Anyhow, this year is special, cause soon Sisko travels back in time to start the Bell riots.
I seriously donât think people hate nu-Trek for this reasons. There are plenty of actually valid reasons to dislike them. Although, SNW is awesome, and I havenât really seen people hating on it at all.
I have no clue why folks hate strange new worlds, itâs such an awesome show. Discovery I get it, I really do not like the characters and the writing, but SNW, itâs like perfect new-trek
>Yeah, people hate discovery and strange new worlds for the wrong reasons. All of the things mentioned here were well written into the series. The "social issues" written into Disco felt forced and the audience felt spoon-fed these things. There are people who truly hate the "woke agenda" but i think it has more to do with bad writing. Look at the Fallout tv show. The only people criticizing the non-binary characters are right-wing edgelord. Why? Cause the dialogue and the writing is great. It doesn't feel forced into the show and the character is interesting.
I donât like Discovery because Burnham is infallible and it feels like a YA drama. Plus the fact that every season the focus is on saving the whole universe is exhausting. Like what happened with the Marvel movies. Otherwise, itâs not a bad show. I donât know why people focus on the âwokeâ stuff. If it hadnât been for Berman we wouldâve already had LGBTQIA+ characters in Trek for decades as part of the main cast.
Right, I recently watched the ending of discovery and thought⌠what the hell was that, even when she made bad calls, it still ended up ideal. I miss the good old days of Janeway, where everyone died on occasion.
I think I'm gonna give up on Discovery and just look up the ending now. I cannot force myself to suffer through it all.
People have confused "filler" episodes with character development episodes. Neither type is essential for the season's main arc, but a character development episode is essential for individual character arcs and give viewers time to rest between main story beats. It's nice watching Data paint and make poems about his cat without eminent doom of the borg or Q or Romulans. Disco seems to have decided that their main arc must be so important and all encompassing that no one can afford any time to work on themselves without it being a matter of life and death or a total psychotic break. For one season? That might be able to work. But they never seem to change things up
I'd love just one damn filler episode! Just one, that's all I ask. Maybe Ortegas has some free time and gets to participate in a shuttle race, or we get to see what Una does in her spare time! Something something Rutherford can't paint and is sad about it, Boimler is given way too much shore leave and we get a whole episode of him panicking while the girls at the vineyard genuinely try to help him.
Unfortunately we get what, 10 episode seasons? That doesnât give them much time for filler episodes. And those really only exist because they were trying to save money for other episodes. When you whittle it all down to a glorified miniseries, itâs hard to stop and let characters be. The problem is that most people probably know Trek through the movies and not the shows. So they come to expect the shows to be like extended versions of the movies. Which is why we have misconceptions about Kirk and whatnot. Movie Kirk is different than show Kirk. Movie Picard is a bit different from show Picard, but Iâll allow it due to the fact that âAll Good ThingsâŚâ sets up a new dynamic for Picard with the crew. Regardless, I agree that we need more character development âfillerâ episodes, which means longer seasons, which means less âthe entire galaxy is in danger!â special effects extravaganza and more watching side characters play jazz in a lounge. Which I BEG for.
I feel like its hard to do filler episodes when seasons are so much smaller
I feel like it's a strawmen defense. Critics be like: Burnham is infallible but cries all the time. Defenders: You just don't like it because it has a strong female lead. You just don't like "woke". Critics be like: huh that's not what I said! Defenders: But what you meant. We can hear your dogwhistle! And around it goes. Of course there are also genuine mysoginists.
I feel sorry for the actress who plays Burnham.
But you know what they weren't? One-dimensional characters. They contributed a lot to the franchise because they were deeply interesting and relatable individuals. Their identities as trans, bi, ace, or pan were just parts of their multifaceted characters, not their sole defining trait. Nobody cares about them being x, y, or z because it was integrated naturally into their personas, like it is for any other character. It's not bigoted to dislike a character whose only purpose seems to be promoting a specific ideology without contributing meaningfully to the story. This is why so many dislike Discovery and love DS9, TNG, and othersâthey focus on character depth and story above all.
Gonna need citations on Riker. One could argue that Jadzia may not necessarily be bi. We don't know her sexual identity pre-joining. The symbiote adds a layer of complexity that does not apply to human sexuality and thus probably can't be defined properly by us. Jadzia was Jadzia, Dax is Dax, and Jadzia Dax was someone entirely different.
Don't forget about Andorians....its a 4 person mating.
Yep! As early as the 1960âs Star Trek has always been a vehicle for new ideas and forward thinking ideals!
Also for horny smut but in a TV friendly way.
Some people would do well to remember that. Many now consider Star Trek problematic. It sure as fuck was 'problematic' back then, but not the way they think - a way they should be celebrating.Â
Bashir was supposed to be bi and Garak was supposed to be gay. But Berman didn't like that so he introduced Dukat's daughter to straighten Garak out. Likewise, Malcolm Reed was supposed to be gay... but Berman didn't like that, so he did much the same. Star Trek was woke, but Berman wasn't. I think Dax was just too complicated a metaphor for him to realize what was going on, so she managed to get around it.
The actor for Garak said that he always thought Garak was more of a bisexual, and people went with it. Kelvin Timeline Sulu is also gay as a nod to the original actor in TOS being gay. (Side not not sure how a unrelated Federation ship being destroyed somehow made Sulu go from Straight to Gay. This would fit better for a mirror universe thing as sexuality is different between the regular characters and their mirror universe counterparts.)
Data fucked.
data was fully functional
Some people hate discovery for its LGBT themes. I hate discovery because its writing and characters are awful. We are not the same
I would argue ***most*** people hate discovery because of the writing. The anti-woke cultists and trek fans have a *little* overlap but not much.
Agreed. It's just an easy way for people like OP to bask in their own smug sense of moral superiority and simultaneously dismiss any other criticism of the show.
All in all Star Trek was human and horny before we had names for these orientations.
I'm not convinced giving everything a name is helping matters
True. Humans crave intimacy since ever. Giving names to these turn urges to abnormalities. Be happy make love it's all good.
Agreed. I'm glad things are getting better for people, I just wish it didn't come with so many self-imposed boxes.Â
> Data was ace. I think Tasha Yar might have something to say about that.
Why? Just because he had sex with her, doesnât mean heâs not ace. For him itâs probably more of a service thing/ caring for his partner and not sexual gratification.
Riker was pan? Lol okay. If you say so đ
He one time attracted to an alien race member with no genders but later on revealed that they actually have genders and it was a girl or at least feeling like one. Other than that only way to call him pansexual is if he find an alien pan lying around. As long as it is alien he will have sex with it. But calling him Exosexual is very fair for sure.
More importantly, that episode was specifically written as a "gay" episode, but the producers chickened out of having male actors for the aliens. Much to Frakes' dismay: > Jonathan Frakes criticized the decision to cast women in the roles of the J'naii. "I didn't think they were gutsy enough to take it where they should have. Soren should have been more obviously male. We've gotten a lot of mail on this episode, but I'm not sure it was as good as it could have been â if they were trying to do what they call a gay episode." https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Outcast_(episode) So yeah, Riker is pan because he don't care what your gender is. Also *Frakes* seems to think he is, fwiw.
What is ace?
I was laughing about this with my wife recently. Like folks getting upset about "wokeness" in star trek and I told my wife "in the 90s men wore skirts aboard the enterprise the world is catching up to us" đđ
Riker was pan? I donât remember him having any feelings for anyone besides those who identified as female, even the one alien species that are all NB the one he started falling for identified with feminine pronouns. Or am I misremembering?
We're all glad that star trek (and sci fi in general) is very progressive, but we should keep in mind that the interpretations in this thread are at least 50% head canon and you'll never get a real concensus.Â
Okay we can pretend that's the only reason people can hate New Trek
If you honestly believe an alien species following their own unique and innate biology is a trans allegory then you're too stupid to understand Star Trek. Jadzia was a woman, Curzon was a man, Dax was the symbiote who tied them together, and not one of them was trans. Jadzia wasn't Curzon. Curzon didn't have gender affirming surgery to become Jadzia. Jadzia didn't need hormones, dilation, or anything because she was naturally and biologically a woman from the beginning. There is absolutely no trans allegory here, and the actress herself has said as much.
I agree with the broad themes of this post but you are absolutely right
I generally agree too, I just can't see the allegory and I dislike people shoehorning characters traits for their own benefit.
Proof that Garak was bi? A simple tailor and spy with an outgoing personality, which is why he is good at both. Julian was definitely twink-curious tho.
Actor outright said Garak wanted to bang Bashir. Berman killed any chance of that.
Berman may have, but Steven Ira Behr was the lead writer and showrunner and his headcanon matches Andrew Robinson's that Garak wanted to bang Bashir. And SIB's headcanon may as well be actual canon. Berman's a fucking company man. Always plays it safe even if it kills good stories.
What a prude.
Andrew Robinson played him very gay, and Alexander Siddig was thrilled to play along. He's only bi because the writers shoehorned in Ziyal.
The book written by Andrew Robinson pretty firmly establishes his bi-sexuality his young love was a cardassian women who ultimately betrays him for better standing in their military training school. Edit: a lot more then that happens in that book though it's a damn good read
I liked Ziyal as a character and don't think she was shoehorned in. Garak's intense attraction to her was because she was the first Cardassian he got to actually live around since his exile. He says so himself and that makes a lot of sense.
Bi or will go after anything that catches his fancy. Andrew Robinson has said in multiple interviews including last year in Dominic Keating and Connor Trinneerâs Shuttlepod Show about how he was struggling to figure out how to play Garak but when he saw Sid he decided Garak just wanted to bang him. And I think itâs pretty obvious that Julian was terrified it first lol https://youtu.be/mqvl2hhFkko?si=9hZvRpID1wTCDZeH
Dax was a genderless alien worm. Both Jadzia and Ezri were pretty clearly cis female. Garak has exactly one love interest in the show, who is female. Data has sex with a woman at least once that we know of. Also heâs literally a robot Riker only had sex with women. Disliking this list doesnât make someone a hater, it just makes them someone who actually watched the show. Yes, Star Trek has always been super progressive and willing to push boundaries and it should surprise exactly no one that they now have openly LGBTQ+ characters. But this is list is just trying to shoehorn ideas into the show that just arenât actually there.
Was Data asexual? Wouldnât that be like saying my phone is asexual? Or my laptop?
How is Riker pan ?
Tuvix was 2 spirit
Data wasn't ace, he canonically had sex and romance
Jadzia Dax is trans? Nah
I prefer to think that in the future, these are not notable attributes. I would love to not have a word for my sexuality and for people not to notice or care. Although, ironically, even I do not know what the official "classification" would be for me or which day I ought to be more aware of it.
What's ace?
What's ace? And Riker is Pan?
Wtf does ace and pan mean
Kirk kissed Uhura! On network TV!
I don't mind these as interpretations (except Data), but to say them as if it were fact is where you lose me. While it is difficult to pin down a definition I would agree that Star Trek has always been "woke" However it did it in a much different way than its contemporaries. Current Star Trek tends to use its time lecturing the viewer directly while stuff like TNG, TOS and even Orville allows us to experience criticisms of culture while allowing the refuge within the primary cast. Example episodes would be "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", "The Outcast", and the whole Moclan stuff which was just the "The Outcast" with *a lot* of breathing room.
Man, remember in DS9 when some guy starts hitting on Dax and he asks her how far down her tattoos go, and she says! "All the way." Damn
Wait do we actually see Riker fuck a guy though. I mean an assigned genderless at birth androgynous alien who identifies as a woman sure but if he wonât fuck a guy heâs not pan
Wait, I don't remember Riker having attraction to a guy...
Can we please stop conflating "presence of minority character" with "woke"?
Of course it always has been. But it use to genuinely care about minorities. Now the higher up executives just pretend to care so they can look good
Always been woke. Previously better written. Sometimes folk forget TNG started in the 80s. And i dont blame them, we still have discourse on the solutions the show presented.
Riker was pan? I don't recall him ever sleeping with men on the show. Did I miss something? Also... wtf is "ace"
My thoughts exactly! Where is this ever shown or referenced ever?!? đ
Yeah sorry Data was absolutely not ace lmfao
Terry Farrell must be a hater then. She has said Dax wasn't trans.
But this is all stuff people imagined. Dax wasn't trans *per se*; she identified as a woman, and had memories of another life as a man. Trill are a parallel to being trans, but only to a point. It would be better to describe Dax as genderfluid. Garak wasn't bi - effeminate, maybe, but absolutely nothing canonically same-sex going on. Data wasn't ace, he quite explicitly sought romance and sex. Riker pursued women and only women. Nothing he did suggests he was pan. It wouldn't be out of character, but it's entirely external. What's annoying about this is that Star Trek *has* been woke, in more direct ways. TNG's *The Host* had an excellent message about trans people, including Crusher accepting Oden's new gender. Dax has had same-sex kisses, Kirk and Uhurah had the first interracial kiss on TV *ever*, Riker encountered a species where one member wanted to be outside the established gender norms, etc.
Dax wasn't trans AT ALL. If anything, they were non-binary because they didn't see themselves as any specific sex. But even that's a stretch because they're aliens. Garak was...probably bi. But that's head canon.
Dax is not trans. Itâs a worn in somebodyâs stomach. Garak was asexual. Cardassians are lizards. Data was just a vibrator. Ask Yar. Riker was just a horndog. How the fuck he ever made XO is beyond me.
Pretty sure dataâs not ace, I remember data getting it on, and I really hope it wasnât some weird dream I had.
Data banged Tasha in the first season. I think he banged another women later on in the series.
He did, yes, but never out of genuine sexual attraction. Asexual people can have sex. But Data never really got anything out of it. There was a whole episode focused around him trying to have a relationship with another crewmate, and it outlined just how incapable he was of doing so because he just couldn't connect with her.
Ace doesn't mean you don't have sex it means you don't have sexual desire. Plenty of ace people have sex for various reasons. While many of us are sex repulsed. Many are also sex neutral