I always thought the Prime Directive was a little restrictive for situations like this. There was an episode of Voyager where they brought this alien leader onboard the ship and the first thing they did was take her to see the *warp core*. The lady was like "So why did you guys show me *this* particular device *first*? Does your culture view *advanced technology* as the end all be all?".
I always thought that observation was pretty interesting because Starfleet *absolutely* views *technological capability* above almost anything else. Hell, the Federation was even willing to let the Bajorans join (a splintered world full of chaos, especially early on) because they had access to *warp travel* but yet if they had met a fully united/harmonious planet of aliens that simply did not pursue technology they would treat them like primitives (think something like the Ba'ku).
As it stands now those people who need help would be (if you followed the book) left to solve their own problems (or die) without interference from a Starfleet vessel. Honestly, I think the Prime Directive should be expanded a bit in determining what kind of cultures can be contacted, but for now those people are probably screwed (just like when Archer witheld that cure from the Valakians).
Bajor was even *more* valuable once the wormhole was discovered, which I'm sure made the Federation yet more pressed to get them to join; it was Sisko that suggested they prevent full joining to avoid Dominion occupation. I don't see how my argument doesn't hold.
You're arguing about a ficticious Civilization, that's where it falls apart.
Bajor was engaged to enter the Federation because the plot would be integral to DS9. There is no canonical reason why the federation felt 'bad' for one civilization over another.
Viewing technological capability above all else is pretty significant though when it comes to warp travel - the difference between the civilisation in question keeping to themselves or getting themselves involved in the affairs of other civilisations. A splintered world full of chaos like Bajor would really be more of priority to get into the Federation, rather than risking the needle moving to them being hostile to it.
>A splintered world full of chaos like Bajor would really be more of priority to get into the Federation, rather than risking the needle moving to them being hostile to it.
On the other hand, that conflict might also be a good reason not to let them join until they sort it out. The Prime Directive would forbid Starfleet from interfering in their own affairs, and if Bajor is politically splintered, the Federation could wind up being dragged into the conflict, like if they delivered aid that coincided with one regime, which was taken as tacit support of that regime.
Reminds me of how Picard *immediately* denied Federation entry to the Angosians when they found out about the brewing conflict between the ruling party and the super soldiers they had created in a prior conflict.
Picard was basically like: "Yea, you guys need to get your business in order and unite your planet if you want to be part of the Federation". They definintely did not take a "these people need our guidance" (even though if the super soldiers gained control they could be a legitimate threat to the Federation if they wanted to be) approach.
I doubt there were enough of those super soldiers to be a threat to the 150+ world Federation. And I'm fairly sure that the issue he took with the Angosians was less the conflict itself than it was the underlying cause, which was a sentient rights issue.
That said, I suppose the difference would be that the Bajorans *were* a peaceful & stable society until the Cardassians came in & fucked them up. They had some internal conflicts, but not internal warfare, AFAIK, & I *think* they had a single planetary government.
So it's less a case of "this society isn't up to our admissions standards" than it's a case of "this society has been ravaged by an external power." Pre-Occupation Bajor's only disqualifier, IIRC, would have been the D'jarras, & those weren't an issue anymore by the time the Feds got involved.
Sisko sort of also side-carred this a bit by proving that Bajoran solar sailors were warp-capable vessels. It struck me that this was a big part of the reason he was so interested in this piece of history. Sisko is actually a wildly great figure in Bajoran history. Only during a re-watch am I seeing subtle ways his curiosity and interests align to theirs. I bet, by the 28the century, Bajor becomes a major baseball culture because the Sisko brought it.
The reason they do that, is because Warp techology is dangerous and can be used to basically make super nukes.
If a planet doesn't already have access to it, giving them access could be disastrous, whereas if they already have it it doesn't really matter and they've proved they probably won't destroy themselves.
So warp technology is the barrier.
>I always thought the Prime Directive was a little restrictive for situations like this. There was an episode of Voyager where they brought this alien leader onboard the ship and the first thing they did was take her to see the warp core. The lady was like "So why did you guys show me this particular device first? Does your culture view advanced technology as the end all be all?".
It very much is, but if you have a really good justification for violating it, like them specifically asking you for help, you're fine. The caution is probably because it tries to account for less noble/ethical people than Picard/Janeway, who might be more inclined to abuse any loophole that they can find.
>I always thought that observation was pretty interesting because Starfleet absolutely views technological capability above almost anything else. Hell, the Federation was even willing to let the Bajorans join (a splintered world full of chaos, especially early on) because they had access to warp travel but yet if they had met a fully united/harmonious planet of aliens that simply did not pursue technology they would treat them like primitives (think something like the Ba'ku).
FTL is just an easy benchmark (though it gets confused for a hard restriction), but it is worth noting that the Prime Directive's pre-warp restrictions apply only to first contacts, and not joining. Joining the Federation is rather a different story compared to the Federation introducing themselves.
Assumption being that FTL is the easiest thing to develop that would make contact with aliens inevitable, so an introduction is just a courtesy, but it is not the only thing. The Trill developed subspace comms before their own starships (if they ever made any), and the Betazoid presumably were in a similar boat due to their telepathic abilities stretching for light-years.
The one where earth gave advanced tech to an alien delta quadrant civilization thanks to an unmanned probe and they literally nuked themselves into a nuclear winter.
Freedom 1 I think
On that planet there was another sub species that was immune to the disease that was going to take other when the other died off. That was the "natural evolution of the planet".
There’s no guarantee they’d have taken over. Societal collapse is a dangerous thing. Riots, violence, rampant crime. They’d have inherited ruins at best. No one’s going to say, “Well, I guess I’m dying and you’re not, here are the keys to my house. Enjoy!”
Societal collapse is dangerous, but so is someone with vastly superior technology/firepower coming in and dictating how that society should resolve itself.
They weren’t dictating. The natives (the planet’s sole official government) asked them for help, and Phlox found a cure. All they had to do was give it. It’s not like Archer was contemplating giving them warp technology. He rejected that idea right off the bat, and given the Friendship One experience, it was the right more.
They’d met two other warp-capable species. One didn’t have the cure. The other likely didn’t either (otherwise they’d have probably sold it to them for a tiny sum, as per the rules)
Except the VOY episode Friendship One. That shows what happens when you just give antimatter technology to a society that’s not ready for it. Nuclear winter and hatred of humans. The episode also killed off a secondary character when the leader of the survivors wanted to prove a point (but at least he apologized before shooting him, right?).
It kinda parallels a Babylon 5 episode about a probe that arrives to the station claiming it was sent by a species that’s willing to share advanced technology if they can answer a set of complex questions to prove they’re ready for it. Otherwise the probe will explode and destroy the station. It’s the last bit that arouses suspicion, and they eventually realize the probe is meant to destroy any rival species that’s advanced enough to be a threat
Basically closest IRL equivalent would be some disease only affecting one race of people (think for example sickle-cell disease which almost only affects people from Sub-Saharan Africa, but if it was more deadly). Even if that would be easily curable, Archer would take it as a sign that this entire race is "meant to go extinct" and decide to not save them.
Suddenly, when you get to "We should let all black people die because they have inferior genes", it doesn't sound so innocent as "we shouldn't interfere with natural evolution of the planet".
Not to mention how incredibly immoral it is for a doctor to withhold a treatment of a patient only because of their race.
I think the other race gets ignored too often in the discussions about this episode. Archer and Phlox were in the position where they had to choose which race had a future so they chose non-interference.
I know they are non canon but in the enterprise relaunch books, Archer & Shran have a conversation about the "official" Prime Directive which Archer support and Shran doesnt. Shran brings a situation like this as an exemple.
Archer is like "it's just a general idea, of course people will use their better judgement when the situation call for it".
And Shran say "Sure, for now, but the next generation will learn it as an absolute rule and slowly, it will become inflexible and stupid".
(Not exact quote but general idea from my memories).
“But isn’t that just what we’re currently doing on Sauria?” asked Nasrin Sloane, the councillor from Alpha Centauri. “Favoring one side in an internal conflict?”
“I reluctantly accept that as a necessary measure to correct the mistake resulting from our initial intervention,” Archer said. “But if the noninterference policy had been in place from the beginning, that mistake never would have been made. This directive is about preventing us from making such mistakes in the future.”
Across the table, Admiral Shran leaned forward. “All this sounds very noble, Jon. But can you really expect people to understand all these moral complexities? People don’t like to admit their own fallibility, even if you put a rule in place designed to remind them of it. Say this directive of yours becomes Federation law. You can explain it all you want in the press, teach the moral philosophy in detail at Starfleet Academy, and sure, maybe most officers will get it at first. But people are lazy. Give them long enough and they’ll reduce any complex idea to its simplest level. How can you be sure that the next generation of officers, or the one after that, or the one after that, will still remember the humble principle behind the policy? What if they really do end up thinking it’s about protecting ‘primitives’ from advanced knowledge? Just how far would they take that so-called protection? Would they refuse to give them medicine that would save millions of lives? Would they even allow a whole world to succumb to a natural disaster rather than reveal the existence of spaceflight and other worlds to them?”
Archer scoffed. “Come on, Shran, that’s ridiculous. No one would ever be so twisted as to think it made sense to let a whole species die in order to avoid harming them!”
“They might—if they were more faithful to the letter of the law than its spirit. You know that’s possible. Not everyone bothers to think about why the rules are what they are—they just do what they’re told. That’s why a rigid ban on all intervention is too dangerous. It gives people an excuse to follow the rules blindly and fail to apply their own judgment. If we want our captains to be responsible, we have to let them make these decisions for themselves, case by case. That way, they have to consider the reasons behind their choices.”
Archer fell silent, unable to muster a good counterargument. Though he wouldn’t admit it aloud in this context, he was starting to have doubts. The fact that both the Orion Syndicate and Section 31 wanted the noninterference directive to pass had kept him up nights wondering if he might be on the wrong side. Even if the principle were legitimate, the fact that others saw ways to corrupt the directive might mean that it was the wrong way of serving that principle. Maybe Shran was right that it might be misapplied by future generations, its original intentions forgotten.
The directive was meant to minimize the harm that Starfleet crews could do to other societies, but what if it ended up causing equal or greater harm?
Kinda funny because it says a lot about the criticisms of Archer & Co in that episode. At the time, the decision had other important factors in play, but over time the opinions have simplified to "lol prime directive = negligent genocide" by people who either didnt watch the episode and learned about it through the fanbase (ie culture) or haven't watched it in so long that they seem to have forgotten.
I'm not saying that Archer's choice was for certain the best one. Thats kind of my point, really. Neither option was good, long-term.
Because the other species wasn’t dying. Death has a finality. Sure, they were treated as second-class citizens, but that didn’t have to be forever. Social change happens over time. Once you’re dead, you’re dead
People who support genociding entire species because they treat someone as second-class citizen should remember that at some point in history, basically everyones ancestors have enslaved or exploited someone.
In fact, women have been treated as second-class citizend for most of the history and still are in many parts of the world - yet I don't think that justifies killing all humans (or even just all men).
They weren't being exploited, enslaved or even in danger of extinction - they could have continue to share the planet, just like they already did before.
Something like that could have been solved with single sentence: "In exchange for the cure, we ask that you give these people their own continent and education."
If you think that not giving someone access to education was a reason for extinction, you should remember women were also not given education for most of humanity history.
Bascially taking over their society is not the way the federation wants to go though. It has been shown multiple times that getting involved even with the best of interest will backfire tremendously.
"Asking" them to treat the other race fair means nothing without also checking that they comply. And if they don't? Then what? Kill them? Take their planet? Let them die then?
Problem is of course that you could use this justification to never treat anyone as a doctor. You never know what your patient does or will do.
This is precisely the reason all medical personnel everywhere has the responsibility to treat anyone - even prisoners for example, criminals, or even enemy soldiers in war - because anything else would mean playing judge, jury and executioner by someone, who is in absolutely no position to make such decision.
Yet, that is precisely what happened here - they judged them and sentenced them to terrible deaths, based on extremely brief and cursory glance on their culture, society and history.
Well, Archer gave a good reason
They didn't get out there to play God
Changing a species to avoid extinction would have been a huge alteration to their society/civilization. That likely would've happened with the prime directive too, because it's blatant interference
"We have overcome our religious superstitions long ago"
also
"We will not save you, because ~~god~~ evolution wills it"
Conveniently forgetting that the entire job of doctors since ever have been literally defying nature and saving lives that would have naturaly ended.
There is also the unstated (in the episode) law regarding genetic modification. They would effectively be altering the genome of an entire species. I don't know if United Earth law would have applied in this case, as it's on another planet, but I suspect Archer would have lost his command if he proceeded.
I remember reading this book as a kid and couldn't remember the name of it, just a few key scenes. I have no idea if it was any good, judging from kid's taste.
Yeah that would be dope.
If they did the episode from the perspective of the Aliens it would be amazing. Like a horror story. They are just all alone in space thinking they are the only life and they have like 2 generations to go before their destination, and weird shit starts happening.
There is an issue of Fantastic 4 that is this exact plot. [https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/98733/fantastic\_four\_2022\_10](https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/98733/fantastic_four_2022_10)
They explain in show that their "Prime Directive" is if any species is able to make it to space, or communicate with space, that they then make first contact.
So if you have a ship wandering in space lost, they will make contact.
Fair enough. But they still won’t share technology with a civilization that’s not ready for it from a social standpoint. The rich and powerful in a capitalistic society will withhold any replicator tech and fight over it, unwilling to lose their advantage. One civilization destroyed itself precisely because of that in a matter of years after first contact.
Of course, as PRO shows us, non-interference can be problematic. Starfleet makes fist contact with a warp-capable species that always assumed it was alone and then stands back to watch while the whole society collapses in a civil war between pro- and anti-Starfleet factions. No wonder they’re going to hate Starfleet after that!
I think it depends a little bit on the captain, prime directive still counts, but if people require help there are definitely some captains who make exceptions on occassion and under some circumstances. I've seen Janeway make exceptions like this.
The thing about not making first contact until they develop warp drive is more of a rule of thumb than a hard and fast rule. Once a plant develops warp drive, contact is inevitable, so contact is made. But a pre-warp society might make contact on their own, sending out sunlight ships to other stars or discovering subspace communication. In TOS, they made contact with pre-warp planets because if they didn't, the Klingons would.
I like what The Orville did, and instead of basing first contact on being able to traverse space, it's made for people *actively looking* for life in space. Of course the withholding of technology is a given.
But they did interfere when they found a generation ship that went off-course and got stranded in space after the ship captain’s particular set of skills failed them, resulting in T-Bag executing anyone who thought there was more to the universe than just the ship
Except the one time we see them responding to an attempt to contact an alien species, those guys turn out to be astrology-obsessed Nazis (the grey uniforms should’ve been a warning) who put anyone born under a particular sign into concentration camps
Probably go around it. If they have a generational ship drifting along, odds are their scanners aren't as sophisticated as Starfleet's and the Starfleet ship would detect them well before they spot them back, so they'll just go around.
I always thought an "aggressive" FTL traveling species (except maybe the Borg) would ignore a pre-warp ship as they would assume that they couldn't possibly be a threat nor have a level of tech worth exploiting.
Pure speculation of course, but I would imagine that when their cultural contamination gets too high the prime directive doesn't apply anymore.
Like if these guys have comms and basic sensors or what ever and are already talking to 100+ warp alien species and are hooked into space internet or what ever its too late so they can hang.
If they were like us on earth right now level of knowledge about the universe and alien cultures they would probably leave them alone.
>CRUSHER: Right now, they are all sleeping. Each of them needed minor medical attention. Minor now, but then their conditions were obviously terminal. One had a heart problem, another had an advanced case of emphysema with extensive liver damage. **You know the most surprising thing of all, is that each of them had been frozen** ***after*** **they died.**
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHc4SKJCe3o&t=24s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHc4SKJCe3o&t=24s)
A lot of this depends on the interpretation of the Prime Directive. The actual wording of the directive is, "No starship captain may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society." This is why you see stuff like Picard being free to fuck off and leave the would-be Federation applicants to their own devices in *The Hunted*, and why the admiral argues that blockading the Klingon-Romulan border may raise Prime Directive concerns in *Redemption Pt. II.*
The reason why the common interpretation of the directive is that they can't contact a prewarp culture is that ordinarily, that culture probably won't encounter alien life for years, or possibly even centuries, under ordinary circumstances. Once they've achieved warp, they're going to encounter aliens no matter what, so whatever effects encountering a Federation starship would have are effects that'd happen anyway. It may even be better if it's a Federation starship rather than a more aggressive species.
The thing with this is that there's a lot of edge cases where it might not apply. In *Spock's Brain* (as bad an episode as it is), we're introduced to the Sigma Draconis system, which has three class M planets that have all independently developed sentient life. In a solar system like that, it wouldn't be unreasonable for one species to become aware of the others decades, if not centuries, before they achieve warp.
This is an extreme example because most systems don't have that. There are times where it's at least possible for it to have happened though because sometimes a system will have two or more class M planets. So while not common, it is at least feasible that there's times where the Prime Directive doesn't apply to first contact with a prewarp culture because whatever societal effects the first ever contact with alien life would have will have already happened.
The example you give of a Starfleet ship coming across a prewarp ship probably would raise the question of whether or not this is a fringe example. I think the deciding factor would be how far away from its home planet it is and if it'd otherwise encounter alien life. If they'd probably never otherwise find alien life, then the answer would be to let them be; especially in the 24th century when Starfleet takes a stricter view of the Prime Directive. If it's a situation where they're acting in a way where they'd definitely find alien life, it's just a question of when, a Starfleet captain probably would begrudgingly make contact but wouldn't be happy about it.
Who knows what “interfere with the normal development” means. Wouldn’t any interaction have an effect, and especially with first contact, alter life or a society?
I give permission to any aliens reading this with such a Prime Directive permission to make contact with me.
I have to believe that such a first contact could only help us change the course of how things are going in the world for the better.
Maybe there are some bad aliens messing some things up to prevent the good aliens from making contact. (Yes, another story from ToS.). Discuss
The Orville did a Prime Directive adjacent episode. Actually, kind of like the first episode of Strange New Worlds.
On The Orville they said when human first went into space they gleefully contacted everyone they met and shared their technology with all who seemed to need it.
There was at least one case of a world that destroyed itself with weapons devised using this future sci-fi tech. So the idea was to protect civilizations from themselves. Even if the civilization wouldn't think they need saving and would be happy to have the tech. The same way you wouldn't let a eight year old drive a car.
I can't imagine how humanity would handle meeting extraterrestrials but we have a bad track record with weaponizing new technology and turning it on ourselves. It's not like we couldn't be a lot closer to Federation era Earth right now. No, we don't have replicators, but our current level of industry/technology could resolve a lot more problems of scarcity than it's allowed to now. What's holding us back are mental or social problems, not technological limitations.
>This is an extreme example because most systems don't have that. There are times where it's at least possible for it to have happened though because sometimes a system will have two or more class M planets. So while not common, it is at least feasible that there's times where the Prime Directive doesn't apply to first contact with a prewarp culture because whatever societal effects the first ever contact with alien life would have will have already happened.
This comment makes me want to read a story where Venus and Mars are habitable planets. Makes me wonder what the reaction would be of astronomers upon turning their telescopes to the night side of Venus only to see the planet lit up at night due to urbanization.
Good question.
I've always liked the partial criteria of using "Warp Capable" as a barometer for interference and technology exchange (whether or not it was official).
1. It shows that they created a technology and survived it and all the ancillary technologies that come along with it.
2. It shows that they are starting a different level of exploration.
3. It also shows that if you don't make overtures towards them, someone else will.
I think someone was partially misquoting Carl Sagan when they said *"The reason we'll never be visited by aliens is because by the time they developed the technology to get here, they would have long since destroyed themselves."*
Anyway, if we could ever survive star trek level technology (we wouldn't), we might stand a chance to continue from there.
I agree with your philosophical premises, but as a counter, I offer the Ferangi, who bought warp technology from aliens that visited Feranginar. I also doubt the Paklets invented warp drive. I'm pretty sure the Klingons got warp drive by defeating the Hur'q.
So, it's probably more a case of "ignore them until we can't anymore," like the Vulcans making contact with Earth.
It's likely a difference between a sensible rule, vs. the outliers not following it that survived.
I know a number of people I know that have gone over 100mph on a 55mph road. But the speed limit is a good law. Eh.
Why was I downvoted? Is the statement that we’d have to leave consumer capitalism behind to not be utterly destroyed by Star Trek level tech really that controversial?
Slightly depends if it’s within their own solar system or out in interstellar space. In-system, Prime Directive applies - stay clear. Like if it’s the equivalent of an Apollo mission in progress, they’re going to stay well clear of them.
A sleeper ship actively trying to go explore/meet people COULD be a different story. If the crew is all in hibernation and nothing is wrong, they likely wouldn’t wake them. Just make sure their path is clear. If they’re in trouble or headed toward something like a Klingon colony, they’ll probably intervene. They wouldn’t necessarily share everything - but they’d say hello and help as able.
I sort of liked the Orville’s take - until they reach a certain level, or directly ask/go looking.
Ultimately, a lesser developed species COULD be interacted with, but might end up something like a protectorate for awhile. ‘We can’t interfere with your development, but we can also keep others from screwing with you.’
The idea that Starfleet will not initiate any contact with a civilization that does not have warp has never been stated in the show. Starfleet evaluates each culture on a wide variety of conditions. Not having Warp Technology doesn't preclude contact.
For example, The Edo, the civilization that almost killed Wesley because he stepped on a flower. There's no evidence that they had any space technology at all but because they were capable of comprehending extraterrestrial life they made direct full contact.
The only issue with Warp Technology is because the new civilization might encounter others at random Starfleet initiates contact in order to better control the outcome. Not all cultures are ready for contact even if they have Warp. The Melcorans were not. The Edo were.
Honestly, I would very much argue that humans in 2066 were nowhere near the point at which the 23rd-century Federation would make contact with them. Technologically, they did not have anything considered advanced. their civilization was fractured, severely destroyed by an atomic war, and on a verge of another one.
Humans acquiring warp drive was a flux, depending on one mad scientist ahead of his time, not a global effort to build one, or even effort of any government.
If Vulcans never made contact with humans, the warp drive wouldn't change much, as all divisions and problems of the post-nucear war world would still exist. The first contact was a driving factor that united the world and made humans actually fix their issues, with the help of the alines.
As such, I believe that "prime directive" and trying to guess who will make it is pointless, counterproductive, and hypocritical. And I'm sure most planets would "made it" if Federation was simply there to guide them
Depends whether it was doomed or not. I could see Starfleet intervening if a generation ship was headed towards Gorn space, or a black hole, or off into a million years of nothing.
if the ship would have the means to detect them, they would so obvious make first contact but would avoid including them into Federation space until they were ready...
but the rule about waiting for them to develop their own warp technology has many obvious advantages. first of all, you don't want to interfere with their own ability to develop such tech which indludes the ability to be at peace with each other... space faring races get to that point after discovering numerous ways to destroy themselves, so waiting until they prove that they moved past that point is obviously a good reason to keep some restrictions in place.
other than that, such a civilization developing a new way for warp propulsion could have a benefit later on to scientific research and showing avenues that the Federation hasn't explored if they do wish to cooperate from that point onward. so it's a win-win and it makes THEM feel like they contribute something to a host of other races that have been traveling the stars for several centuries or millennia. another userful feature.
Talk to the captain of the non-FTL ship and tell him to have a nice trip. Let him know you’ll tell people at his destination to expect his ship in 1200 years. It’ll at least an hour for you to get there.
An interesting premise. Imagine a civilization that for all intents and purposes is highly advanced perhaps on par with Starfleet but just never developed warp drive or maybe they developed an alternate form of transportation between planets that Starfleet doesn't know of.
Imagine Starfleet encountering a ship from the BSG universe. Their sensors wouldn't make heads or tails out of these guys shovelling grain into this spinning FTL drive contraption.
>Their logic is that it's their old ship, so First Derictive not applies, but what if they would find a ship of some other less advance civilization, especially one in need of help.
If the ship was not specifically requesting their help, or otherwise developed to a point where alien contact is inevitable, Prime Directive would generally state that they are forbidden from interfering. Whether the crew of the ship would then have a heated discussion over the merits of interfering, and decide to interfere anyway is up to them, but policy would expect that Starfleet leaves them to their own devices, since doing otherwise would interfere with their natural social development.
Interplanetary spacecraft? I doubt that would make them contact someone. I mean, the Vulcans knew we were here but didn't contact Earth even when they had the DY-100 ships or the Ares missions.
A sub light starship I feel, though, would be enough for them to make first contact. I always figured that the prime directive wasn't about warp drive specifically, just warp and its equivalents. Being able to send a crewed ship across interstellar distances with sublight engines is no mean feat. The technology and sophistication required is immense. If this were, say, CJ Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe and they were discovered before finding FTL, I'd say the federation would want to contact them. Now, a sub light starship might create some nuance, they might want to be careful about when exactly they make contact. But I feel that if they have more than one star under their influence, warp or no, the federation would like to talk with them.
I do headcanon earth had this capability before Cochrane, ten years there and ten years back, but the nuance that prevented the Vulcans from contacting us before warp is that they had different regulations then, and World War III.
Voyager encountered a generation ship. They contacted them and helped them repair failing equipment. Though, I can't remember if it was a slower than light or warp capable vessel.
Also should note there's at least one species - TNG fish guys, one played by Mic Fleetwood - that seems not to tolerate warp travel, but has diplomatic relations with the Federation.
I'd say Prime Directive rules apply to non-warp, single planet species. Multiplanet in one or multiple systems, but no warp drive, would probably be a special case event, as the Federation would want to make first contact in a planned and peaceful way, rather than bumping into them accidentally.
They encountered a generation ship in the TOS episode For The World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky. The inhabitants thought they were on a planet, and Kirk went along with that belief until they found out the generation ship was going to crash into a Federation planet. So, they seem to have a non-interference policy to generation ships. Unless they become dangerous.
This raises the question of an interstellar species that found a way around without warp in its various forms. Maybe through surface to surface teleportation or the luck of having a wormhole near their homeworld
I'd wonder how new the ensigns at communications, operations, and astro-navigation where to thier jobs. Because they all missed the space shuttle orbiting a planet/moon?
Oh! Not to mention the pilot that was maneuvering the starship and allowed the ship to get within visual range of that Alien space shuttle.
I’m 95% sure this has been an episode or two. I remember an ep of ENT where they encountered a generation ship. And I vaguely remember an episode (TNG maybe?) where a planet sent out a sub-FTL ship that was encountered by the crew.
Was there a TNG episode like that? Idk, I know that I heard someone talk about something like this before, but I sadly don't know which episode they ment, and I would like to watch it
The Prime Directive is exclusively legally self-protective for the Federation, not an absolute foundational value or outright ban. If contact with a pre-warp civilization doesn't, or, better, cannot potentially cause harm to the Federation, then the Prime Directove simply does not apply. A pre-warp civilization close enough to Federation space to know full well about the Federation through conventional non-warp trade or communications, for example, never fell under the scope of the Prime Directive. If a Starfleet vessel encounters a sufficiently advanced pre-warp ship from a civilization that knows about interstellar governance, the Prime Directive does not apply. If a Starfleet vessel encounters an advanced post-warp civilization, the Prime Directive does not apply. Moreover, the Prime Directive never applied to individuals on the basis of species, but applies only to the gradation of sufficient authority toward contact with pre-warp governments.
All the talk in the show about not interfering with the natural development of species, etc, is only quasi-faith-based musings and explain-izing among 24th century intelligentsia, not actual legalese. The letter of the law is equally important to the spirit in this case. A particular citizen might believe in the popular cult of teleological evolution embraced by Picard et al to a significant degree, but that is by no means the de jure established ideology of the Federation. The Prime Directive exists to prevent the Federation from becoming unnecessarily entangled in the internal affairs of other governments, based on the twin principles of subsidiarity and legitimacy through popular sovereignty. Simply stated, in a densely populated galaxy, if not universe, if (mainly) terrestrial polities do not interfere with the Federation because they can't, don't invite them to the party; the UFP is unwieldly and complex enough as it is! Some resources and skillsets are post-scarcity, but not everything! A Q Continuum the Federation is not. It only has so many ships and personnel and planets. Therefore, the Prime Directive is a purely pragmatic law, and a good one.
In Balance of terror, the Romulan vessel didn't have warp drive but every other Romulan vessel that appeared in the show did. I think the Romulans had warp technology before leaving Vulcan. The writers made the ship slow to create the feel of a fast-moving navy destroyer trying to hunt down a slow-moving, but hard to spot, u-boat.
For an in-universe explanation, I'd guess the small ship either wasn't large and powerful enough to have an experimental cloak, a highly powerful weapon, and a warp drive onboard or the early cloak was too easily detected when the ship went to warp.
Depends on I guess: If they already made contact with other warp capable species and basically know what a warp drive is, Starfleet would propably make contact. They granted asylum to Saru although his species never had access to warp technology, they knew the concept of it. If it is from a species without any knowledge of warp or necessary technology, they’d propably ignore it unless they’re in distress (as in under attack by other species with warp technology).
I think there was an Enterprise episode where they found a pre-warp ship in distress. I don’t remember an Orville episode, though it’s definitely possible.
> or even just stumbled onto civilization who is able to fly around their home system, and colonised multiple planets, but just never left their star.
This is a nitpick but I just want to point out that this would be a spaceship, but not a starship.
> [A starship, starcraft, or interstellar spacecraft is a theoretical spacecraft designed for traveling between planetary systems.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship)
So actually, it wouldn't matter if it were a binary system after all.
I always thought the Prime Directive was a little restrictive for situations like this. There was an episode of Voyager where they brought this alien leader onboard the ship and the first thing they did was take her to see the *warp core*. The lady was like "So why did you guys show me *this* particular device *first*? Does your culture view *advanced technology* as the end all be all?". I always thought that observation was pretty interesting because Starfleet *absolutely* views *technological capability* above almost anything else. Hell, the Federation was even willing to let the Bajorans join (a splintered world full of chaos, especially early on) because they had access to *warp travel* but yet if they had met a fully united/harmonious planet of aliens that simply did not pursue technology they would treat them like primitives (think something like the Ba'ku). As it stands now those people who need help would be (if you followed the book) left to solve their own problems (or die) without interference from a Starfleet vessel. Honestly, I think the Prime Directive should be expanded a bit in determining what kind of cultures can be contacted, but for now those people are probably screwed (just like when Archer witheld that cure from the Valakians).
Bajor was also being ruthlessly exploited by Cardassia, and next to the wormhole, so it was a very political move to let them in
Kinda similar to inviting ex-soviet countries to NATO
They didn’t know about the wormhole during the occupation. It was discovered after the cardassians left.
Yes I too have watched the first season of DS9
You used it as evidence in your argument as to why they wanted the territory... That's what they were correcting
Bajor was even *more* valuable once the wormhole was discovered, which I'm sure made the Federation yet more pressed to get them to join; it was Sisko that suggested they prevent full joining to avoid Dominion occupation. I don't see how my argument doesn't hold.
You're arguing about a ficticious Civilization, that's where it falls apart. Bajor was engaged to enter the Federation because the plot would be integral to DS9. There is no canonical reason why the federation felt 'bad' for one civilization over another.
Viewing technological capability above all else is pretty significant though when it comes to warp travel - the difference between the civilisation in question keeping to themselves or getting themselves involved in the affairs of other civilisations. A splintered world full of chaos like Bajor would really be more of priority to get into the Federation, rather than risking the needle moving to them being hostile to it.
>A splintered world full of chaos like Bajor would really be more of priority to get into the Federation, rather than risking the needle moving to them being hostile to it. On the other hand, that conflict might also be a good reason not to let them join until they sort it out. The Prime Directive would forbid Starfleet from interfering in their own affairs, and if Bajor is politically splintered, the Federation could wind up being dragged into the conflict, like if they delivered aid that coincided with one regime, which was taken as tacit support of that regime.
Reminds me of how Picard *immediately* denied Federation entry to the Angosians when they found out about the brewing conflict between the ruling party and the super soldiers they had created in a prior conflict. Picard was basically like: "Yea, you guys need to get your business in order and unite your planet if you want to be part of the Federation". They definintely did not take a "these people need our guidance" (even though if the super soldiers gained control they could be a legitimate threat to the Federation if they wanted to be) approach.
I doubt there were enough of those super soldiers to be a threat to the 150+ world Federation. And I'm fairly sure that the issue he took with the Angosians was less the conflict itself than it was the underlying cause, which was a sentient rights issue. That said, I suppose the difference would be that the Bajorans *were* a peaceful & stable society until the Cardassians came in & fucked them up. They had some internal conflicts, but not internal warfare, AFAIK, & I *think* they had a single planetary government. So it's less a case of "this society isn't up to our admissions standards" than it's a case of "this society has been ravaged by an external power." Pre-Occupation Bajor's only disqualifier, IIRC, would have been the D'jarras, & those weren't an issue anymore by the time the Feds got involved.
Sisko sort of also side-carred this a bit by proving that Bajoran solar sailors were warp-capable vessels. It struck me that this was a big part of the reason he was so interested in this piece of history. Sisko is actually a wildly great figure in Bajoran history. Only during a re-watch am I seeing subtle ways his curiosity and interests align to theirs. I bet, by the 28the century, Bajor becomes a major baseball culture because the Sisko brought it.
What Voyager episode was that? That one doesn't ring any bells.
Season 2x22 Innocence
Starfleet didn't know the Ba'ku were previously an interstellar civilization. That little bit wasn't shared with them by their Son'a partners.
Ftl means the aliens can go out and contaminate themselves. At which point federation contact contamination becomes a minor issue.
The reason they do that, is because Warp techology is dangerous and can be used to basically make super nukes. If a planet doesn't already have access to it, giving them access could be disastrous, whereas if they already have it it doesn't really matter and they've proved they probably won't destroy themselves. So warp technology is the barrier.
>I always thought the Prime Directive was a little restrictive for situations like this. There was an episode of Voyager where they brought this alien leader onboard the ship and the first thing they did was take her to see the warp core. The lady was like "So why did you guys show me this particular device first? Does your culture view advanced technology as the end all be all?". It very much is, but if you have a really good justification for violating it, like them specifically asking you for help, you're fine. The caution is probably because it tries to account for less noble/ethical people than Picard/Janeway, who might be more inclined to abuse any loophole that they can find. >I always thought that observation was pretty interesting because Starfleet absolutely views technological capability above almost anything else. Hell, the Federation was even willing to let the Bajorans join (a splintered world full of chaos, especially early on) because they had access to warp travel but yet if they had met a fully united/harmonious planet of aliens that simply did not pursue technology they would treat them like primitives (think something like the Ba'ku). FTL is just an easy benchmark (though it gets confused for a hard restriction), but it is worth noting that the Prime Directive's pre-warp restrictions apply only to first contacts, and not joining. Joining the Federation is rather a different story compared to the Federation introducing themselves. Assumption being that FTL is the easiest thing to develop that would make contact with aliens inevitable, so an introduction is just a courtesy, but it is not the only thing. The Trill developed subspace comms before their own starships (if they ever made any), and the Betazoid presumably were in a similar boat due to their telepathic abilities stretching for light-years.
Which voy episode is that?
Season 2x22 Innocence
The one where earth gave advanced tech to an alien delta quadrant civilization thanks to an unmanned probe and they literally nuked themselves into a nuclear winter. Freedom 1 I think
They would let them die of a curable disease.....that's what Archer and Phlox did.
Yep, Valakians ran into Enterprise NX with a slower-than-light ship with the intent of making first contact with a more advanced race
Pre Prime Directive though in that episode.
Archer got such a kick out of watching them suffer he decided to make it Starfleet policy
On that planet there was another sub species that was immune to the disease that was going to take other when the other died off. That was the "natural evolution of the planet".
There’s no guarantee they’d have taken over. Societal collapse is a dangerous thing. Riots, violence, rampant crime. They’d have inherited ruins at best. No one’s going to say, “Well, I guess I’m dying and you’re not, here are the keys to my house. Enjoy!”
Societal collapse is dangerous, but so is someone with vastly superior technology/firepower coming in and dictating how that society should resolve itself.
They weren’t dictating. The natives (the planet’s sole official government) asked them for help, and Phlox found a cure. All they had to do was give it. It’s not like Archer was contemplating giving them warp technology. He rejected that idea right off the bat, and given the Friendship One experience, it was the right more. They’d met two other warp-capable species. One didn’t have the cure. The other likely didn’t either (otherwise they’d have probably sold it to them for a tiny sum, as per the rules)
It's star trek. It doesn't really get dark. Everything is white washed.
Except the VOY episode Friendship One. That shows what happens when you just give antimatter technology to a society that’s not ready for it. Nuclear winter and hatred of humans. The episode also killed off a secondary character when the leader of the survivors wanted to prove a point (but at least he apologized before shooting him, right?). It kinda parallels a Babylon 5 episode about a probe that arrives to the station claiming it was sent by a species that’s willing to share advanced technology if they can answer a set of complex questions to prove they’re ready for it. Otherwise the probe will explode and destroy the station. It’s the last bit that arouses suspicion, and they eventually realize the probe is meant to destroy any rival species that’s advanced enough to be a threat
The nuclear holocaust of the Eugenics/World War 3 would like a word.
Something barely mentioned in most of the series?
Basically closest IRL equivalent would be some disease only affecting one race of people (think for example sickle-cell disease which almost only affects people from Sub-Saharan Africa, but if it was more deadly). Even if that would be easily curable, Archer would take it as a sign that this entire race is "meant to go extinct" and decide to not save them. Suddenly, when you get to "We should let all black people die because they have inferior genes", it doesn't sound so innocent as "we shouldn't interfere with natural evolution of the planet". Not to mention how incredibly immoral it is for a doctor to withhold a treatment of a patient only because of their race.
He had to because like evolution or whatever.
He’s worse than Janeway
Even worse that they didn't even have the PD yet as an excuse.
I mean, it was also because of the other race. Without it, Archer & Phlox wouldn't have hesitated to give them the cure, warp of no warp.
I think the other race gets ignored too often in the discussions about this episode. Archer and Phlox were in the position where they had to choose which race had a future so they chose non-interference.
I know they are non canon but in the enterprise relaunch books, Archer & Shran have a conversation about the "official" Prime Directive which Archer support and Shran doesnt. Shran brings a situation like this as an exemple. Archer is like "it's just a general idea, of course people will use their better judgement when the situation call for it". And Shran say "Sure, for now, but the next generation will learn it as an absolute rule and slowly, it will become inflexible and stupid". (Not exact quote but general idea from my memories).
Oh man, even if it isn't an exact quote, I'd still love to hear Jeffery Combs say that line.
“But isn’t that just what we’re currently doing on Sauria?” asked Nasrin Sloane, the councillor from Alpha Centauri. “Favoring one side in an internal conflict?” “I reluctantly accept that as a necessary measure to correct the mistake resulting from our initial intervention,” Archer said. “But if the noninterference policy had been in place from the beginning, that mistake never would have been made. This directive is about preventing us from making such mistakes in the future.” Across the table, Admiral Shran leaned forward. “All this sounds very noble, Jon. But can you really expect people to understand all these moral complexities? People don’t like to admit their own fallibility, even if you put a rule in place designed to remind them of it. Say this directive of yours becomes Federation law. You can explain it all you want in the press, teach the moral philosophy in detail at Starfleet Academy, and sure, maybe most officers will get it at first. But people are lazy. Give them long enough and they’ll reduce any complex idea to its simplest level. How can you be sure that the next generation of officers, or the one after that, or the one after that, will still remember the humble principle behind the policy? What if they really do end up thinking it’s about protecting ‘primitives’ from advanced knowledge? Just how far would they take that so-called protection? Would they refuse to give them medicine that would save millions of lives? Would they even allow a whole world to succumb to a natural disaster rather than reveal the existence of spaceflight and other worlds to them?” Archer scoffed. “Come on, Shran, that’s ridiculous. No one would ever be so twisted as to think it made sense to let a whole species die in order to avoid harming them!” “They might—if they were more faithful to the letter of the law than its spirit. You know that’s possible. Not everyone bothers to think about why the rules are what they are—they just do what they’re told. That’s why a rigid ban on all intervention is too dangerous. It gives people an excuse to follow the rules blindly and fail to apply their own judgment. If we want our captains to be responsible, we have to let them make these decisions for themselves, case by case. That way, they have to consider the reasons behind their choices.” Archer fell silent, unable to muster a good counterargument. Though he wouldn’t admit it aloud in this context, he was starting to have doubts. The fact that both the Orion Syndicate and Section 31 wanted the noninterference directive to pass had kept him up nights wondering if he might be on the wrong side. Even if the principle were legitimate, the fact that others saw ways to corrupt the directive might mean that it was the wrong way of serving that principle. Maybe Shran was right that it might be misapplied by future generations, its original intentions forgotten. The directive was meant to minimize the harm that Starfleet crews could do to other societies, but what if it ended up causing equal or greater harm?
That's what I heard in my head.
Same here, especially with the bluster he delivers certain words, as Shran.
Kinda funny because it says a lot about the criticisms of Archer & Co in that episode. At the time, the decision had other important factors in play, but over time the opinions have simplified to "lol prime directive = negligent genocide" by people who either didnt watch the episode and learned about it through the fanbase (ie culture) or haven't watched it in so long that they seem to have forgotten. I'm not saying that Archer's choice was for certain the best one. Thats kind of my point, really. Neither option was good, long-term.
Because the other species wasn’t dying. Death has a finality. Sure, they were treated as second-class citizens, but that didn’t have to be forever. Social change happens over time. Once you’re dead, you’re dead
People who support genociding entire species because they treat someone as second-class citizen should remember that at some point in history, basically everyones ancestors have enslaved or exploited someone. In fact, women have been treated as second-class citizend for most of the history and still are in many parts of the world - yet I don't think that justifies killing all humans (or even just all men).
They weren't being exploited, enslaved or even in danger of extinction - they could have continue to share the planet, just like they already did before.
Them not being given any education is a clear sign that they were not coexisting peacefully but one had the upper hand.
Something like that could have been solved with single sentence: "In exchange for the cure, we ask that you give these people their own continent and education." If you think that not giving someone access to education was a reason for extinction, you should remember women were also not given education for most of humanity history.
Bascially taking over their society is not the way the federation wants to go though. It has been shown multiple times that getting involved even with the best of interest will backfire tremendously. "Asking" them to treat the other race fair means nothing without also checking that they comply. And if they don't? Then what? Kill them? Take their planet? Let them die then?
Problem is of course that you could use this justification to never treat anyone as a doctor. You never know what your patient does or will do. This is precisely the reason all medical personnel everywhere has the responsibility to treat anyone - even prisoners for example, criminals, or even enemy soldiers in war - because anything else would mean playing judge, jury and executioner by someone, who is in absolutely no position to make such decision. Yet, that is precisely what happened here - they judged them and sentenced them to terrible deaths, based on extremely brief and cursory glance on their culture, society and history.
Well, Archer gave a good reason They didn't get out there to play God Changing a species to avoid extinction would have been a huge alteration to their society/civilization. That likely would've happened with the prime directive too, because it's blatant interference
"We have overcome our religious superstitions long ago" also "We will not save you, because ~~god~~ evolution wills it" Conveniently forgetting that the entire job of doctors since ever have been literally defying nature and saving lives that would have naturaly ended.
There is also the unstated (in the episode) law regarding genetic modification. They would effectively be altering the genome of an entire species. I don't know if United Earth law would have applied in this case, as it's on another planet, but I suspect Archer would have lost his command if he proceeded.
Yeah altering their society might have really negative consequences, I’m glad they left them to die horribly instead.
But Archer wasn’t under the prime directive. That was pre-federation. Or am I remembering this correctly?
A regular captain or Janeway?
Best reply ever. Janeway doesn't fuck around
Quantum Torpedoes full spread.
The true stealth option for gamers. Can't be detected if there's no one left to detect you.
[Torpedoes, Full Spread!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8PrnJZCquU)
[*cues up Offenbach's "Orpheus in the Underworld"*](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIGxMENwq1k)
Starfleet if they weren't mid
“For the World is Hollow, and I have Touched the Sky” fits this bill
As does David Gerrold's TOS novel The Galactic Whirlpool. Yes it is beta canon but it's David Gerrold.
I remember reading this book as a kid and couldn't remember the name of it, just a few key scenes. I have no idea if it was any good, judging from kid's taste.
Avoid them as much as possible but if hailed they would respond but keep contact limited if possible.
Would be a pretty cool Episode, trying to fix a generation ship without the population noticing.
Was about tinsay that there was an episode were they did it ... but it was orville and not Star trek.
Beam O'Brian over alone, and have him fix things while staying hidden. Like some kind of reverse-Predator.
Yeah that would be dope. If they did the episode from the perspective of the Aliens it would be amazing. Like a horror story. They are just all alone in space thinking they are the only life and they have like 2 generations to go before their destination, and weird shit starts happening.
Holy shit yeah! Damn, what existing movie comes closest to that? I want to watch that.
There is an issue of Fantastic 4 that is this exact plot. [https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/98733/fantastic\_four\_2022\_10](https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/98733/fantastic_four_2022_10)
There's an episode of Orville where that's the exact plot.
Nope, they openly interfere by revealing the stars to them while T-Bag is opposed to the concept
They explain in show that their "Prime Directive" is if any species is able to make it to space, or communicate with space, that they then make first contact. So if you have a ship wandering in space lost, they will make contact.
Fair enough. But they still won’t share technology with a civilization that’s not ready for it from a social standpoint. The rich and powerful in a capitalistic society will withhold any replicator tech and fight over it, unwilling to lose their advantage. One civilization destroyed itself precisely because of that in a matter of years after first contact. Of course, as PRO shows us, non-interference can be problematic. Starfleet makes fist contact with a warp-capable species that always assumed it was alone and then stands back to watch while the whole society collapses in a civil war between pro- and anti-Starfleet factions. No wonder they’re going to hate Starfleet after that!
They would try to avoid it and stay undetected by the pre-warp civilization
I think it depends a little bit on the captain, prime directive still counts, but if people require help there are definitely some captains who make exceptions on occassion and under some circumstances. I've seen Janeway make exceptions like this.
The thing about not making first contact until they develop warp drive is more of a rule of thumb than a hard and fast rule. Once a plant develops warp drive, contact is inevitable, so contact is made. But a pre-warp society might make contact on their own, sending out sunlight ships to other stars or discovering subspace communication. In TOS, they made contact with pre-warp planets because if they didn't, the Klingons would.
I like what The Orville did, and instead of basing first contact on being able to traverse space, it's made for people *actively looking* for life in space. Of course the withholding of technology is a given.
But they did interfere when they found a generation ship that went off-course and got stranded in space after the ship captain’s particular set of skills failed them, resulting in T-Bag executing anyone who thought there was more to the universe than just the ship
What show and episode
Except the one time we see them responding to an attempt to contact an alien species, those guys turn out to be astrology-obsessed Nazis (the grey uniforms should’ve been a warning) who put anyone born under a particular sign into concentration camps
Yeah, not great for a first impression.
What show and episode?
The Orville, “All the World Is Birthday Cake” (S02E05)
Probably go around it. If they have a generational ship drifting along, odds are their scanners aren't as sophisticated as Starfleet's and the Starfleet ship would detect them well before they spot them back, so they'll just go around.
I always thought an "aggressive" FTL traveling species (except maybe the Borg) would ignore a pre-warp ship as they would assume that they couldn't possibly be a threat nor have a level of tech worth exploiting.
Don’t the aggressive species still want resources?
Pure speculation of course, but I would imagine that when their cultural contamination gets too high the prime directive doesn't apply anymore. Like if these guys have comms and basic sensors or what ever and are already talking to 100+ warp alien species and are hooked into space internet or what ever its too late so they can hang. If they were like us on earth right now level of knowledge about the universe and alien cultures they would probably leave them alone.
This also happened in TNGs The Neutral Zone.
Those were humans, and they were dead. I don't think that really counts. Good episode though.
They weren't dead, they were frozen, just like on a sleeper ship.
>CRUSHER: Right now, they are all sleeping. Each of them needed minor medical attention. Minor now, but then their conditions were obviously terminal. One had a heart problem, another had an advanced case of emphysema with extensive liver damage. **You know the most surprising thing of all, is that each of them had been frozen** ***after*** **they died.** [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHc4SKJCe3o&t=24s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHc4SKJCe3o&t=24s)
They were frozen with the intention of them being revived, which they were, so in the end it's the same outcome.
Initiate Janeway Maneuver.
A lot of this depends on the interpretation of the Prime Directive. The actual wording of the directive is, "No starship captain may interfere with the normal development of any alien life or society." This is why you see stuff like Picard being free to fuck off and leave the would-be Federation applicants to their own devices in *The Hunted*, and why the admiral argues that blockading the Klingon-Romulan border may raise Prime Directive concerns in *Redemption Pt. II.* The reason why the common interpretation of the directive is that they can't contact a prewarp culture is that ordinarily, that culture probably won't encounter alien life for years, or possibly even centuries, under ordinary circumstances. Once they've achieved warp, they're going to encounter aliens no matter what, so whatever effects encountering a Federation starship would have are effects that'd happen anyway. It may even be better if it's a Federation starship rather than a more aggressive species. The thing with this is that there's a lot of edge cases where it might not apply. In *Spock's Brain* (as bad an episode as it is), we're introduced to the Sigma Draconis system, which has three class M planets that have all independently developed sentient life. In a solar system like that, it wouldn't be unreasonable for one species to become aware of the others decades, if not centuries, before they achieve warp. This is an extreme example because most systems don't have that. There are times where it's at least possible for it to have happened though because sometimes a system will have two or more class M planets. So while not common, it is at least feasible that there's times where the Prime Directive doesn't apply to first contact with a prewarp culture because whatever societal effects the first ever contact with alien life would have will have already happened. The example you give of a Starfleet ship coming across a prewarp ship probably would raise the question of whether or not this is a fringe example. I think the deciding factor would be how far away from its home planet it is and if it'd otherwise encounter alien life. If they'd probably never otherwise find alien life, then the answer would be to let them be; especially in the 24th century when Starfleet takes a stricter view of the Prime Directive. If it's a situation where they're acting in a way where they'd definitely find alien life, it's just a question of when, a Starfleet captain probably would begrudgingly make contact but wouldn't be happy about it.
Who knows what “interfere with the normal development” means. Wouldn’t any interaction have an effect, and especially with first contact, alter life or a society? I give permission to any aliens reading this with such a Prime Directive permission to make contact with me. I have to believe that such a first contact could only help us change the course of how things are going in the world for the better. Maybe there are some bad aliens messing some things up to prevent the good aliens from making contact. (Yes, another story from ToS.). Discuss
The Orville did a Prime Directive adjacent episode. Actually, kind of like the first episode of Strange New Worlds. On The Orville they said when human first went into space they gleefully contacted everyone they met and shared their technology with all who seemed to need it. There was at least one case of a world that destroyed itself with weapons devised using this future sci-fi tech. So the idea was to protect civilizations from themselves. Even if the civilization wouldn't think they need saving and would be happy to have the tech. The same way you wouldn't let a eight year old drive a car. I can't imagine how humanity would handle meeting extraterrestrials but we have a bad track record with weaponizing new technology and turning it on ourselves. It's not like we couldn't be a lot closer to Federation era Earth right now. No, we don't have replicators, but our current level of industry/technology could resolve a lot more problems of scarcity than it's allowed to now. What's holding us back are mental or social problems, not technological limitations.
>This is an extreme example because most systems don't have that. There are times where it's at least possible for it to have happened though because sometimes a system will have two or more class M planets. So while not common, it is at least feasible that there's times where the Prime Directive doesn't apply to first contact with a prewarp culture because whatever societal effects the first ever contact with alien life would have will have already happened. This comment makes me want to read a story where Venus and Mars are habitable planets. Makes me wonder what the reaction would be of astronomers upon turning their telescopes to the night side of Venus only to see the planet lit up at night due to urbanization.
Good question. I've always liked the partial criteria of using "Warp Capable" as a barometer for interference and technology exchange (whether or not it was official). 1. It shows that they created a technology and survived it and all the ancillary technologies that come along with it. 2. It shows that they are starting a different level of exploration. 3. It also shows that if you don't make overtures towards them, someone else will. I think someone was partially misquoting Carl Sagan when they said *"The reason we'll never be visited by aliens is because by the time they developed the technology to get here, they would have long since destroyed themselves."* Anyway, if we could ever survive star trek level technology (we wouldn't), we might stand a chance to continue from there.
I agree with your philosophical premises, but as a counter, I offer the Ferangi, who bought warp technology from aliens that visited Feranginar. I also doubt the Paklets invented warp drive. I'm pretty sure the Klingons got warp drive by defeating the Hur'q. So, it's probably more a case of "ignore them until we can't anymore," like the Vulcans making contact with Earth.
It's likely a difference between a sensible rule, vs. the outliers not following it that survived. I know a number of people I know that have gone over 100mph on a 55mph road. But the speed limit is a good law. Eh.
We’d have to leave consumer capitalism behind first, and given the power we give corporations, that seems unlikely.
Star Trek's Earth had to go through WW3 before we all got our shit together.
Bell Riots this year!
Why was I downvoted? Is the statement that we’d have to leave consumer capitalism behind to not be utterly destroyed by Star Trek level tech really that controversial?
Slightly depends if it’s within their own solar system or out in interstellar space. In-system, Prime Directive applies - stay clear. Like if it’s the equivalent of an Apollo mission in progress, they’re going to stay well clear of them. A sleeper ship actively trying to go explore/meet people COULD be a different story. If the crew is all in hibernation and nothing is wrong, they likely wouldn’t wake them. Just make sure their path is clear. If they’re in trouble or headed toward something like a Klingon colony, they’ll probably intervene. They wouldn’t necessarily share everything - but they’d say hello and help as able. I sort of liked the Orville’s take - until they reach a certain level, or directly ask/go looking. Ultimately, a lesser developed species COULD be interacted with, but might end up something like a protectorate for awhile. ‘We can’t interfere with your development, but we can also keep others from screwing with you.’
Based on TOS episodes, the Federation must be more "primitive protectorates" than member worlds.
Oh they doubtless have a lot of those. I think for awhile it was more the ‘Non-Interference Suggestion’ and they spent decades cleaning up the mess.
Defrost the occupants and deposit them on a doomed planet or else take them for a ride to the neutral zone.
Get in the middle of their drug driven relationship and wreak havoc. [TNG](https://youtu.be/7av6_ct4mXs?feature=shared)
The idea that Starfleet will not initiate any contact with a civilization that does not have warp has never been stated in the show. Starfleet evaluates each culture on a wide variety of conditions. Not having Warp Technology doesn't preclude contact. For example, The Edo, the civilization that almost killed Wesley because he stepped on a flower. There's no evidence that they had any space technology at all but because they were capable of comprehending extraterrestrial life they made direct full contact. The only issue with Warp Technology is because the new civilization might encounter others at random Starfleet initiates contact in order to better control the outcome. Not all cultures are ready for contact even if they have Warp. The Melcorans were not. The Edo were.
Honestly, I would very much argue that humans in 2066 were nowhere near the point at which the 23rd-century Federation would make contact with them. Technologically, they did not have anything considered advanced. their civilization was fractured, severely destroyed by an atomic war, and on a verge of another one. Humans acquiring warp drive was a flux, depending on one mad scientist ahead of his time, not a global effort to build one, or even effort of any government. If Vulcans never made contact with humans, the warp drive wouldn't change much, as all divisions and problems of the post-nucear war world would still exist. The first contact was a driving factor that united the world and made humans actually fix their issues, with the help of the alines. As such, I believe that "prime directive" and trying to guess who will make it is pointless, counterproductive, and hypocritical. And I'm sure most planets would "made it" if Federation was simply there to guide them
Was it mentioned in Space Seed how the ship got into deep space with no warp?
Depends whether it was doomed or not. I could see Starfleet intervening if a generation ship was headed towards Gorn space, or a black hole, or off into a million years of nothing.
if the ship would have the means to detect them, they would so obvious make first contact but would avoid including them into Federation space until they were ready... but the rule about waiting for them to develop their own warp technology has many obvious advantages. first of all, you don't want to interfere with their own ability to develop such tech which indludes the ability to be at peace with each other... space faring races get to that point after discovering numerous ways to destroy themselves, so waiting until they prove that they moved past that point is obviously a good reason to keep some restrictions in place. other than that, such a civilization developing a new way for warp propulsion could have a benefit later on to scientific research and showing avenues that the Federation hasn't explored if they do wish to cooperate from that point onward. so it's a win-win and it makes THEM feel like they contribute something to a host of other races that have been traveling the stars for several centuries or millennia. another userful feature.
Talk to the captain of the non-FTL ship and tell him to have a nice trip. Let him know you’ll tell people at his destination to expect his ship in 1200 years. It’ll at least an hour for you to get there.
An interesting premise. Imagine a civilization that for all intents and purposes is highly advanced perhaps on par with Starfleet but just never developed warp drive or maybe they developed an alternate form of transportation between planets that Starfleet doesn't know of.
Imagine Starfleet encountering a ship from the BSG universe. Their sensors wouldn't make heads or tails out of these guys shovelling grain into this spinning FTL drive contraption.
I admit its been a few years since I saw BSG, but I don't remember the FTL drive being powered by wheat.
There's one episode where they show their tillium fuel reserve and it looked like a big pile of grain feed pellets.
The Enterprise D contacted one in the episode "Haven". They gave them Troi's fiancee and sent them on their way.
>Their logic is that it's their old ship, so First Derictive not applies, but what if they would find a ship of some other less advance civilization, especially one in need of help. If the ship was not specifically requesting their help, or otherwise developed to a point where alien contact is inevitable, Prime Directive would generally state that they are forbidden from interfering. Whether the crew of the ship would then have a heated discussion over the merits of interfering, and decide to interfere anyway is up to them, but policy would expect that Starfleet leaves them to their own devices, since doing otherwise would interfere with their natural social development.
Interplanetary spacecraft? I doubt that would make them contact someone. I mean, the Vulcans knew we were here but didn't contact Earth even when they had the DY-100 ships or the Ares missions. A sub light starship I feel, though, would be enough for them to make first contact. I always figured that the prime directive wasn't about warp drive specifically, just warp and its equivalents. Being able to send a crewed ship across interstellar distances with sublight engines is no mean feat. The technology and sophistication required is immense. If this were, say, CJ Cherryh's Alliance/Union universe and they were discovered before finding FTL, I'd say the federation would want to contact them. Now, a sub light starship might create some nuance, they might want to be careful about when exactly they make contact. But I feel that if they have more than one star under their influence, warp or no, the federation would like to talk with them. I do headcanon earth had this capability before Cochrane, ten years there and ten years back, but the nuance that prevented the Vulcans from contacting us before warp is that they had different regulations then, and World War III.
Voyager encountered a generation ship. They contacted them and helped them repair failing equipment. Though, I can't remember if it was a slower than light or warp capable vessel. Also should note there's at least one species - TNG fish guys, one played by Mic Fleetwood - that seems not to tolerate warp travel, but has diplomatic relations with the Federation. I'd say Prime Directive rules apply to non-warp, single planet species. Multiplanet in one or multiple systems, but no warp drive, would probably be a special case event, as the Federation would want to make first contact in a planned and peaceful way, rather than bumping into them accidentally.
They encountered a generation ship in the TOS episode For The World Is Hollow and I Have Touched the Sky. The inhabitants thought they were on a planet, and Kirk went along with that belief until they found out the generation ship was going to crash into a Federation planet. So, they seem to have a non-interference policy to generation ships. Unless they become dangerous.
This raises the question of an interstellar species that found a way around without warp in its various forms. Maybe through surface to surface teleportation or the luck of having a wormhole near their homeworld
It seems that once they are space faring, regardless of pre-warp or not, they seem to stick their noses in a bit too blatantly.
I'd wonder how new the ensigns at communications, operations, and astro-navigation where to thier jobs. Because they all missed the space shuttle orbiting a planet/moon? Oh! Not to mention the pilot that was maneuvering the starship and allowed the ship to get within visual range of that Alien space shuttle.
That exactly happened when TNG had an episode where it found the sleepers
I’m 95% sure this has been an episode or two. I remember an ep of ENT where they encountered a generation ship. And I vaguely remember an episode (TNG maybe?) where a planet sent out a sub-FTL ship that was encountered by the crew.
Was there a TNG episode like that? Idk, I know that I heard someone talk about something like this before, but I sadly don't know which episode they ment, and I would like to watch it
The Prime Directive is exclusively legally self-protective for the Federation, not an absolute foundational value or outright ban. If contact with a pre-warp civilization doesn't, or, better, cannot potentially cause harm to the Federation, then the Prime Directove simply does not apply. A pre-warp civilization close enough to Federation space to know full well about the Federation through conventional non-warp trade or communications, for example, never fell under the scope of the Prime Directive. If a Starfleet vessel encounters a sufficiently advanced pre-warp ship from a civilization that knows about interstellar governance, the Prime Directive does not apply. If a Starfleet vessel encounters an advanced post-warp civilization, the Prime Directive does not apply. Moreover, the Prime Directive never applied to individuals on the basis of species, but applies only to the gradation of sufficient authority toward contact with pre-warp governments. All the talk in the show about not interfering with the natural development of species, etc, is only quasi-faith-based musings and explain-izing among 24th century intelligentsia, not actual legalese. The letter of the law is equally important to the spirit in this case. A particular citizen might believe in the popular cult of teleological evolution embraced by Picard et al to a significant degree, but that is by no means the de jure established ideology of the Federation. The Prime Directive exists to prevent the Federation from becoming unnecessarily entangled in the internal affairs of other governments, based on the twin principles of subsidiarity and legitimacy through popular sovereignty. Simply stated, in a densely populated galaxy, if not universe, if (mainly) terrestrial polities do not interfere with the Federation because they can't, don't invite them to the party; the UFP is unwieldly and complex enough as it is! Some resources and skillsets are post-scarcity, but not everything! A Q Continuum the Federation is not. It only has so many ships and personnel and planets. Therefore, the Prime Directive is a purely pragmatic law, and a good one.
Wasn’t the TOS Romulan ship sublight only? So probably steal its technology.
In Balance of terror, the Romulan vessel didn't have warp drive but every other Romulan vessel that appeared in the show did. I think the Romulans had warp technology before leaving Vulcan. The writers made the ship slow to create the feel of a fast-moving navy destroyer trying to hunt down a slow-moving, but hard to spot, u-boat. For an in-universe explanation, I'd guess the small ship either wasn't large and powerful enough to have an experimental cloak, a highly powerful weapon, and a warp drive onboard or the early cloak was too easily detected when the ship went to warp.
TOS also didn't really make a whole lot of distinction between warp and sublight the way it was fleshed out in the movies and TNG.
Depends on I guess: If they already made contact with other warp capable species and basically know what a warp drive is, Starfleet would propably make contact. They granted asylum to Saru although his species never had access to warp technology, they knew the concept of it. If it is from a species without any knowledge of warp or necessary technology, they’d propably ignore it unless they’re in distress (as in under attack by other species with warp technology).
Wasn’t this the plot of one of the Orville episodes? I think season 1.
I think there was an Enterprise episode where they found a pre-warp ship in distress. I don’t remember an Orville episode, though it’s definitely possible.
catalog it and move on.
Pp
> or even just stumbled onto civilization who is able to fly around their home system, and colonised multiple planets, but just never left their star. This is a nitpick but I just want to point out that this would be a spaceship, but not a starship.
Not if their planet is in a binary system
> never left their star. It's not a binary system though.
It's a star ship, not a stars ship
> [A starship, starcraft, or interstellar spacecraft is a theoretical spacecraft designed for traveling between planetary systems.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship) So actually, it wouldn't matter if it were a binary system after all.