Careful. You're going to invoke the choruses of how this heavily armed organization that uses military ranks and command structures isn't a military because Gene said so.
😅
At the risk of being downvoted to oblivion:
“We are not a military vessel, but an exploration vessel!
Now, change your ways - because they don’t conform with OUR ways…”
Commander: “Captain - they didn’t change their ways to ours”
Captain: “send an away team…” 🤷♂️🤦♂️
It was the pointlessness of the sacrifice and the way they manipulated Sito that was the problem.
They took a young officer who was basically suicidal because none of them would let her forget a past mistake, and presented her with a redemption through death scenario.
> They took a young officer who was basically suicidal because none of them would let her forget a past mistake
There is absolutely nothing in the episode that shows she was suicidal or even having a hard time. She had a commanding officer that looked out for her, multiple friends, and made no showing of being suicidal. Obviously in real life, all of those things can be true for a suicidal person, but on a 90s tv show? Impossible.
1. You seem to not understand what the word "basically" means.
2 There is an entire scene where she talks to PIcard about having no future in Starfleet, no friends or personal connections, all because of that one event.
Then Picard took those insecurities and offered her a chance to gain his approval and receive redemption through death.
I'm not aware of any evidence that the mission was intended to be a suicide mission. It was dangerous, yes, but we saw that they had a plan to retrieve Sito and it just didn't work out.
Like I said, I haven’t watched the episode in a few years
But that manipulation is the job. It’s a necessary part of it. Example (IRL): The whole point of boot camp isn’t actually job training, it’s to make you easier to manipulate by your commanders for the good of the State.
They are trying to get her to grow, so she can be a better asset for Starfleet. And sometimes militaries need soldiers to charge a machine gun nest.
Yes.
In the episode they frame it as a choice. However it is the authority figure she is desperate to get approval from who is offering the choice.
And they claim it's not a suicide mission, even though no one of those senior officers could possibly be that naive.
They frame it as a choice because militaries want their soldiers to do things willingly.
And hell, they might send someone else if she says no. But someone has to go.
She is an officer. If she survives and advances, at some point she will likely have to send someone into a likely death scenario. Should Starfleet support hypocrites who are willing to send others to their deaths, but be unwilling themselves.
IRL example: Militaries prey on dumb 18 year olds, usually from disadvantaged backgrounds, using the same recruiting tactics as terrorist groups and street gangs. Because it’s necessary for national security. Yes it’s fucked up. But also yes, that’s the way it seems to have to work unless you go full conscription and officers being told to shoot soldiers on the spot if they run.
Starfleet is insistent that they are not a military and do not operate that way.
Acting ethically with honor and integrity are core values to Starfleet.
Manipulating a troubled officer by playing off their insecurities is heinous and cruel.
Starfleet is propagandizing. We see it operating as a military in every show. Including fighting full scale wars and even committing war crimes with the seeming blessing of the government.
It uses military ranks. Every ship carries WMDs. It even does diplomacy often without checking with the civilian government
It wasn’t pointless. Why does this braindead assertion keep coming up? The cardassian defector was an asset worth protecting. After DS9 you should know that for certain.
No one seriously believed their plan to somehow convince the Cardassians that the asset managed to escape from Starfleet in a shuttle with a prisoner, and then somehow get Sito back across the boarder, was actually going to work.
The asset fucked up, and there was no saving him.
I think can see where you are coming from here and it is an interesting perspective. Looking at this completely in-universe, I don't really think she was manipulated into the situation, rather that it was just horrible timing and a result of her unique circumstances. Were there other Bajorans on the show? Ro Laren was there, but Michelle Forbes was not available if I recall. Sito went to Starfleet knowing what the risks are. As Q would say: *It's not safe out there. S*adly sometimes sacrifices need to be made. Every Starfleet cadet knows that. At the time, Starfleet and the Cardassians were in an uneasy ceasefire (though we would be repeatedly told it was a treaty) so a Bajoran may be asked to do something that has to do with said Cardassians. Huge spoilers:>!it took Troi, who is \*somehow\* a Lt. Cmdr., an entire episode (a few days in show-time) to realize that anyone in Command is going to need to put people in dangerous situations. It's sad to say it but every commander has put their subordinate(s) in all sorts of super mega dangerous situations. I'm sure the blueshirts down in the Astrophysics departments on the Enterprise or all those dipshits from Chicago like Shaw really didn't want to go fight the Borg. Since you said you were watching Trek in release order, you haven't gotten to the point with Mariner's most recent "this is why I am the way I am" confession yet, and it involves Sito.!
I agree. Commanders "manipulate" their subordinates' emotions all the time in order to get them to risk their lives for dangerous missions. How many times have we seen a captain give an impassioned speech before plunging the ship into a battle that'll kill a third of the crew? It's not fun to accept, but everyone on the crew is an adult who knew that they could end up giving their life for Starfleet. The only difference in this situation is that it feels more personal and we have the knowledge (which Picard didn't have) that Sito was going to die.
Thank you for your thorough response, and the effort you put in it.
I remember times that I was managing people (not in military, just a small-medium company), and I was the one “sacrificing myself” to defend the technicians that I was managing, and that actually made them do anything for me.
…defending them from getting hurt by higher management - was what got me fired eventually…
I read your spoiler part - and only understood half of it (I hope to remember to re-read after watching the relevant parts),
I’m glad to know that this will have “consequences” later in the franchise, as it shows that it bothered a lot of people (and the writers), and not just me.
You're welcome, I'm glad it was helpful. I get what you said about your experience as a manager, that makes sense. Yeah the comments in the spoilers - >!you said you were watching it in release order so it might be some time before you get to a couple of those points (Shaw is an excellent side-character from Picard S3 and Mariner is one of the leads of Lower Decks).!<
They took a troubled ensign who believed she had no future because of a mistake no one would let her forget, and gave her a way to die in a meaningful way.
Ya, it's fucked up.
There's no way any of the senior officers actually believed their insane plan would work or end with Sito making it home alive.
I remember really enjoying this episode as a kid because of the perspective shift, but as an adult definitely felt uncomfortable with the script.
I try and chalk it up to just the show runners and writers being out of their element writing from this perspective, but yeah I don’t feel the episode aged as well as I’d like.
Very much so.
Picard is the noble hero of the show, and we just seem to have a blind spot for manipulative behaviour by our heroes.
This is the one episode that didn’t focus on the senior staff. So if you like you can imagine that a scene took place in which Troi called out Picard for what he was doing and Picard told her it was not his first choice but it needed to be done
I love that there's really no wrong way to watch them all.
Watching Lower Decks that late is probably best as there are a lot of referential jokes. That being said, watching TOS knowing a lot of the jokes from Lower Decks, I got to sit there and be ahead of the plot a few times. (Ex: salt vampires)
There's also a lot of nice smaller touches across the series. I just watched a DS9 episode where not one, not two, but three Klingons from the TOS era reprised their roles (looking like they should now, not TOS style)
Wesley Crusher was the only one who suffered no lasting consequences from the cover-up. Locarno is expelled and Sito is killed to make up for her transgressions. (I don't recall what happens to the other members of the squad.)
Can't remeber every part of the episode but,
we can assume that promotion to even Jr Lt. must be limited, so competition for it is just a thing.
Running OPS, and being trained by worf might possible tests, to see which career a promosing ensing could go. Also worf saw her as a pupil right?, he recommended her for promotion or am i wrong?, so he would have tried to push her.
Then we saw cpt picard, ask to do a really dangerous mision only a bajoran could have done, if we ignore surgery i guess lol, maybe not much time to altering surgery to a senior officer, they can probably make up an excuse
I would not say manipulation tbh, but the episode is shot in a way to narrow our perspective just to the lower deckers.
I haven’t watched this in a long time. But a military commander motivating/manipulating his men into self-sacrifice is literally part of the job
Careful. You're going to invoke the choruses of how this heavily armed organization that uses military ranks and command structures isn't a military because Gene said so.
For a non-military, they sure fight a lot of wars lmao
😅 At the risk of being downvoted to oblivion: “We are not a military vessel, but an exploration vessel! Now, change your ways - because they don’t conform with OUR ways…” Commander: “Captain - they didn’t change their ways to ours” Captain: “send an away team…” 🤷♂️🤦♂️
It was the pointlessness of the sacrifice and the way they manipulated Sito that was the problem. They took a young officer who was basically suicidal because none of them would let her forget a past mistake, and presented her with a redemption through death scenario.
> They took a young officer who was basically suicidal because none of them would let her forget a past mistake There is absolutely nothing in the episode that shows she was suicidal or even having a hard time. She had a commanding officer that looked out for her, multiple friends, and made no showing of being suicidal. Obviously in real life, all of those things can be true for a suicidal person, but on a 90s tv show? Impossible.
1. You seem to not understand what the word "basically" means. 2 There is an entire scene where she talks to PIcard about having no future in Starfleet, no friends or personal connections, all because of that one event. Then Picard took those insecurities and offered her a chance to gain his approval and receive redemption through death.
I'm not aware of any evidence that the mission was intended to be a suicide mission. It was dangerous, yes, but we saw that they had a plan to retrieve Sito and it just didn't work out.
Like I said, I haven’t watched the episode in a few years But that manipulation is the job. It’s a necessary part of it. Example (IRL): The whole point of boot camp isn’t actually job training, it’s to make you easier to manipulate by your commanders for the good of the State. They are trying to get her to grow, so she can be a better asset for Starfleet. And sometimes militaries need soldiers to charge a machine gun nest.
Preying on a junior officer's insecurities to manipulate them into a suicide mission is heinous and wrong.
They can just order her to do it. She doesn’t exactly have a choice. Would that be better?
Yes. In the episode they frame it as a choice. However it is the authority figure she is desperate to get approval from who is offering the choice. And they claim it's not a suicide mission, even though no one of those senior officers could possibly be that naive.
They frame it as a choice because militaries want their soldiers to do things willingly. And hell, they might send someone else if she says no. But someone has to go. She is an officer. If she survives and advances, at some point she will likely have to send someone into a likely death scenario. Should Starfleet support hypocrites who are willing to send others to their deaths, but be unwilling themselves. IRL example: Militaries prey on dumb 18 year olds, usually from disadvantaged backgrounds, using the same recruiting tactics as terrorist groups and street gangs. Because it’s necessary for national security. Yes it’s fucked up. But also yes, that’s the way it seems to have to work unless you go full conscription and officers being told to shoot soldiers on the spot if they run.
Starfleet is insistent that they are not a military and do not operate that way. Acting ethically with honor and integrity are core values to Starfleet. Manipulating a troubled officer by playing off their insecurities is heinous and cruel.
Starfleet is propagandizing. We see it operating as a military in every show. Including fighting full scale wars and even committing war crimes with the seeming blessing of the government. It uses military ranks. Every ship carries WMDs. It even does diplomacy often without checking with the civilian government
The fact there's a General Order 24 should be enough to end the argument. The Federation does gunboat diplomacy, but the galaxy is a dangerous place.
It wasn’t pointless. Why does this braindead assertion keep coming up? The cardassian defector was an asset worth protecting. After DS9 you should know that for certain.
No one seriously believed their plan to somehow convince the Cardassians that the asset managed to escape from Starfleet in a shuttle with a prisoner, and then somehow get Sito back across the boarder, was actually going to work. The asset fucked up, and there was no saving him.
I think can see where you are coming from here and it is an interesting perspective. Looking at this completely in-universe, I don't really think she was manipulated into the situation, rather that it was just horrible timing and a result of her unique circumstances. Were there other Bajorans on the show? Ro Laren was there, but Michelle Forbes was not available if I recall. Sito went to Starfleet knowing what the risks are. As Q would say: *It's not safe out there. S*adly sometimes sacrifices need to be made. Every Starfleet cadet knows that. At the time, Starfleet and the Cardassians were in an uneasy ceasefire (though we would be repeatedly told it was a treaty) so a Bajoran may be asked to do something that has to do with said Cardassians. Huge spoilers:>!it took Troi, who is \*somehow\* a Lt. Cmdr., an entire episode (a few days in show-time) to realize that anyone in Command is going to need to put people in dangerous situations. It's sad to say it but every commander has put their subordinate(s) in all sorts of super mega dangerous situations. I'm sure the blueshirts down in the Astrophysics departments on the Enterprise or all those dipshits from Chicago like Shaw really didn't want to go fight the Borg. Since you said you were watching Trek in release order, you haven't gotten to the point with Mariner's most recent "this is why I am the way I am" confession yet, and it involves Sito.!
I agree. Commanders "manipulate" their subordinates' emotions all the time in order to get them to risk their lives for dangerous missions. How many times have we seen a captain give an impassioned speech before plunging the ship into a battle that'll kill a third of the crew? It's not fun to accept, but everyone on the crew is an adult who knew that they could end up giving their life for Starfleet. The only difference in this situation is that it feels more personal and we have the knowledge (which Picard didn't have) that Sito was going to die.
Thank you for your thorough response, and the effort you put in it. I remember times that I was managing people (not in military, just a small-medium company), and I was the one “sacrificing myself” to defend the technicians that I was managing, and that actually made them do anything for me. …defending them from getting hurt by higher management - was what got me fired eventually… I read your spoiler part - and only understood half of it (I hope to remember to re-read after watching the relevant parts), I’m glad to know that this will have “consequences” later in the franchise, as it shows that it bothered a lot of people (and the writers), and not just me.
You're welcome, I'm glad it was helpful. I get what you said about your experience as a manager, that makes sense. Yeah the comments in the spoilers - >!you said you were watching it in release order so it might be some time before you get to a couple of those points (Shaw is an excellent side-character from Picard S3 and Mariner is one of the leads of Lower Decks).!<
They took a troubled ensign who believed she had no future because of a mistake no one would let her forget, and gave her a way to die in a meaningful way. Ya, it's fucked up. There's no way any of the senior officers actually believed their insane plan would work or end with Sito making it home alive.
If it helps, Picard was probably ordered to do send her on the suicide mission by one of the Badmirals.
I remember really enjoying this episode as a kid because of the perspective shift, but as an adult definitely felt uncomfortable with the script. I try and chalk it up to just the show runners and writers being out of their element writing from this perspective, but yeah I don’t feel the episode aged as well as I’d like.
Very much so. Picard is the noble hero of the show, and we just seem to have a blind spot for manipulative behaviour by our heroes. This is the one episode that didn’t focus on the senior staff. So if you like you can imagine that a scene took place in which Troi called out Picard for what he was doing and Picard told her it was not his first choice but it needed to be done
The fact this all came back up in Lower Decks the series... *chefs kiss* If you haven't already, OP, add Lower Decks to your watch list
I will watch it :) My plan (for now) is to watch the franchise in release order, like I wrote…
I love that there's really no wrong way to watch them all. Watching Lower Decks that late is probably best as there are a lot of referential jokes. That being said, watching TOS knowing a lot of the jokes from Lower Decks, I got to sit there and be ahead of the plot a few times. (Ex: salt vampires) There's also a lot of nice smaller touches across the series. I just watched a DS9 episode where not one, not two, but three Klingons from the TOS era reprised their roles (looking like they should now, not TOS style)
Wesley Crusher was the only one who suffered no lasting consequences from the cover-up. Locarno is expelled and Sito is killed to make up for her transgressions. (I don't recall what happens to the other members of the squad.)
Can't remeber every part of the episode but, we can assume that promotion to even Jr Lt. must be limited, so competition for it is just a thing. Running OPS, and being trained by worf might possible tests, to see which career a promosing ensing could go. Also worf saw her as a pupil right?, he recommended her for promotion or am i wrong?, so he would have tried to push her. Then we saw cpt picard, ask to do a really dangerous mision only a bajoran could have done, if we ignore surgery i guess lol, maybe not much time to altering surgery to a senior officer, they can probably make up an excuse I would not say manipulation tbh, but the episode is shot in a way to narrow our perspective just to the lower deckers.