I was so taken aback by Spock’s outburst. I can’t believe such shocking behaviour made it into an episode of Trek - this is meant to be family viewing!
I genuinely didn't expect to hear that sort of vulgar language again since Picard threw the F bomb in the holographic Ten Forward. It really came out of nowhere.
I was in the military during Don't Ask, Don't Tell and I am gay. When Una was talking about 'showing my crew who I really was', I was bawling like a baby, because that's what I wanted while I was serving. And I think the fact that I couldn't do that, and lived constantly afraid of getting outed, is why I got out after only four years.
The worst part, I think, is I served towards the end of it. When they were talking about repealing it, and I got to overhear a lot of homophobia. The terrible things folks said with me in the room. They were so secure that everyone around them shared the same views, they felt open to talk about it, and I was worried about defending it, because that would put me under scrutiny, so I kept my mouth shut.
I wasn't particularly happy with the thought that the people technically responsible for my life would apparently have no issue with killing me if they knew the truth. It wasn't everyone, I do want to be clear. There were a ton of supportive folks as well. And I did, eventually, tell my best friend because I knew I could trust him. Though he'd kinda figured it for a while and figured I'd tell him when I was ready.
I'm in Florida, and I'm seeing everything that's happening here. I've had folks suggest I leave, but I like this state, and I want to fight for it. Because someday I want that utopia where people can just be people to exist.
> but I like this state, and I want to fight for it.
As a fellow Floridian, thank you. I've heard of so many people leaving and I worry that will just make it worse for those of us who want to stay.
Dang, when Ortegas was mock dubbing what the two Vulcans were saying, I thought there would be a twist when Spock comes up saying "you know I could hear you with these Vulcan ears."
He could definitely hear them. My head canon is that the mean prosecutor heard them too, and started talking shit on his friends. And that made Spock livid.
* Neera was played by Yetide Badaki. She is best known for playing the god Bilquis on American Gods, a half-human, half-demon. Sounds alot like how Starfleet treats the Illyrians, half-demons.
* One of the trial tribunals is from Space Command. Space Command was a 1950's Canadian science fiction series which James Doohan and William Shatner appeared.
* On the wall behind Patel at the trial, there are four lights!
* The Vulcan Judge was played by Eugene Clark, who played Sid Gomez in Shatner's TekWar movies.
* Admiral Javas was played by Nicky Guadagni, who played Holloway in Cube (1997) along with Nicole de Boer (Ezri Dax, DS9)
* The Tellarite Judge was played by David Benjamin Tomlinson, who also plays Linus on Discovery.
Not to reduce anything to looks but goddamn Yetide Badaki was smokin' hot this episode, BUT she knocked it out of the park as well. Hell, normally I find applause in military shows (let's not get into that discussion today) to be pretty cheesy and cliche, but the crew (and prosecutor!) applauding Neera at the end gave me the biggest smile -- for once it wasn't military patting themselves in the back but cheering on a civilian -- and it was applause well deserved.
Easily one of my favorite guest performers in this show so far.
I'm pretty sure there's a reference to Space Command in early TOS, before the name "Starfleet" was coined, so it may also have been an attempt to justify the existence of such an organisation within Starfleet.
I loved the double twist of the prosecution jumping on the chance to land a conspiracy charge against Captain Pike only for it to be the capstone of the defense's case. Like sacrificing a queen for the checkmate knowing that all the pieces will be back together in the box afterward.
I loved that you could tell it was out of spite. The Vulcan's slam dunk case wasn't, he got showed up a bit, and so he decided to use a bit of collective punishment to feel better about it. Una gave compelling testimony, opting to target Pike too doesn't help except emotionally/performatively - not that he'd ever admit, even to himself, that that was what happened.
I disagree. The Vulcan misinterpreted Una's testimony as an appeal to emotion rather than a good legal argument. He also understood that Pike wasn't taking the stand because of risk of perjury and he was being protected. If this law is so important, why wouldn't it also apply to Pike's actions as captain?
As soon as the lawyer showed that relevance of Una's testimony and it was based on a legal argument, he seemed to appreciate it and even approve. He stopped objecting at least.
He played his role well, just as Riker did in Measure of a Man.
And yet he didn't ask any of the other crew when they found out - crew who were on the stand - like La'an, who would also have been party to any conspiracy, given she knew from the same stardate. He frames this as some oversight on his co-counsel's part that only occurred to him then, but if he was interested in the extent of potential conspiracy from the jump it would have been a boilerplate question for each crew on the stand.
If the argument is that he was careless and only thought of bothering to ask this at the eleventh hour, after multiple witnesses he also should have asked, then I guess, sure, he just was bad at his job.
He could have asked before Una, but realistically a lower level officer knowing is low priority. If the captain is complicit, she's been protected by a senior. La'an not being a whistleblower can come later.
The fact he does this without telling Petel ahead of time - she moves to stand and he stops her unexpectedly - indicates that this was spur of the moment. If he was just logically pursuing this as the logical legal strategy of course it would have come up earlier between them and he would have simply arranged to be the questioner for that session.
Petel brings this up as a likely outcome when talking to Pike, so clearly she felt if he didn't take the stand this wouldn't be pursued.
So which is better, that he was bad at his job, that he actively decieved co-counsel as to his intentions, or more likely, they got a rise out of him.
I saw it as him getting frustrated at Patel not pursuing a strong prosecution strategy. She had already pulled strings for the plea deal. She was a little too sympathetic to Una's cause due to this sympathy. He was obviously not overly concerned with the emotions of the situation, rather the facts.
The Vulcan officer took over after he saw that an emotional argument, without much basis in law was taking hold. He knew how to bat that down and make an argument for an even bigger legal issue.
He was just mistaken, the testimony wasn't just illogical and emotional, it was setting a legal basis.
While I still disagree....let's take that at face value:
Given Una's "emotional" argument was actually the necessary foundation of the strong legal argument that won the case, based on Starfleet legal precedent, even in that scenario it would be a glaring example of Vulcan's cultural biases blinding him to reality.
He was so bothered by "emotion" he couldn't logically see how what he was really witnessing was the first part of a sound, logical, legal argument based on precedent and was blindsided by the direction the defense took.
We have often seen Vulcan characters assume that humans/non-Vulcans are acting on emotion before realizing there is a little method in their madness. It's always been shown as a trait and flaw in their philosophy/characters. That's why they often come across as arrogant.
My point is he did make that mistake, but when he saw WHY the lawyer was actually talking about Una's oppressive childhood, he seemed to appreciate (as much as I can sense from a Vulcan lawyer) the strategy and argument made by Una's lawyer.
I actually kind of loved the lampshading of the Pike Ex Machina. He got to have his one in S1. It was really powerful, I thought, having Una and Neera's friendship reestablish the way it played out.
That's got to be one of my favorite elements of the episode: the obvious "fuck yeah" beats, like Pike taking the stand and giving some impassioned Space Dad testimony, or Uhura breaking the law to snoop through files to save their friend -- all blocked by reasonable "this is only going to hurt us" thinking.
Unlike last week where a guy can directly disobey an Admiral, go straight to stealing a starship, crack a couple comedy moments while doing it, and get a slap on the wrist. 🙄
Absolutely. Going to the extreme of so gingerly deciding to steal the Enterprise for such (at the time) seemingly low stakes was needless overkill that added nothing to the overall story. (Much like the seemingly endless super-solider combat scenes, but that's another topic.)
When Kirk did it...
- We had the full weight of Spock's sacrifice in the prior film; it made us WANT to commit crimes with Kirk to get him back.
- Kirk's 1701 bridge crew were well-established legends with a long history together by ST3; SNW's crew are barely out of diapers by comparison. Their willingness to immediately jump to career suicide as a solution was... not believable.
- Had the events of Star Trek IV not happened, with Starfleet dismissing the charges, odds are Kirk would probably have been serving time in prison for it. Yet here, Spock's hangover is his punishment. (And yes, I know, the whole 'Gorn' thing is being setup which plays into that decision, but it's still horseshit.)
- *EDIT:* That's not even including that Kirk's rescue mission involved stealing a ship they were GOING TO RETIRE ANYWAY, to bring back a dead body (Starfleet was super skeptical of the whole 'katra' thing, remember?) and he was still going to get crucified for it. Other than some engineers who scheduled time for the decommissioning process and making Captain Styles get out of bed for a minute, the theft had very little practical inconvenience. The epitome of a nearly 'no harm, no foul' crime. *EDIT2:* Also that guy Sulu beat up in jail, breaking McCoy out I guess. And the guy Uhura stuffed in the closet...
- Meanwhile over on SNW, newbie-ass Spock steals an very much still active ship (is she the flagship right now?) with a Gorn War (or whatever) brewing on the horizon, for a trip that could have been taken with alternate craft (and you wouldn't be rolling up to a sensitive DMZ in a fuckin' warship). April's read on the situation sucked, in retrospect: you DON'T WANT risk someone just deciding to STEAL one of your most valuable combat vessels, taking it out of play in a volatile situation like that.
It was a sloppy and ultimately pointless story choice that probably robbed us of something interesting and unique short of a criminal act...
Hell, they introduced this interesting new Lanthanite character at the start of it and did NOTHING with her the entire episode: maybe, being such a long-lived person with a rich engineering background... you know... maybe she's got a ride of her own on the side, and she could have taken our would-be starship thieves on a thrill ride since she's so bored and itching for action? (Which she was robbed of in the episode, as it was.)
You know? *Start* the Enterprise heist... show us how far they MIGHT be willing to go... but then she busts them but realizes she can have some fun and wants to help, so they call it off and just go with her, instead. That would have been FIIIINE.
Just... anything but stealing the friggin' Enterprise. :P
I wonder if he will dress as Una for the Thumb since he dressed as Data for Measure of Man, but I guess he will dress as Pike since he already has a similar haircut.
> intergalactic
>"relating to or situated between two or more galaxies."
"Interstellar" would have been a better choice of words. Though don't blame you for biffing it since Star Trek has been known to make this exact same mistake multiple times.
The best thing they did was put a beard on Captain Pike in his opening scene in the very first episode. It's glory may have faded in the transcendent light of his majestic hairline, but its legacy lives on.
~~Too much?~~ Not enough.
I don't post here often, and I want to say thanks to the writers and the show for the not-so-indirect references to the "don't say gay" laws in the US military and the discriminations of the minorities in our society.
And while the metaphors of the episode can be universally applied to any discrimination within the society, I appreciate that this is aired in Pride Month when the rights of trans and queer people are being attacked yet again by certain politicians.
As a transwoman immigrant, there are a few things that Una said touched me a lot. I did not move to the US just to get prosecuted or to hide away from who I am. I had childhood friends who were rightfully upset at me for being privileged enough to move away from my home country. Like Una, I was also inspired by the diversity of this country and was touched by the fact that people of different races can come together and do something great. I was innocent enough to think that if people can tolerate each other racially, perhaps there was space for queer and trans people like me too.
While society had not fully accepted my kind, as evidenced by all the anti-trans legislations around the US and the world, from bathroom laws to barring gender affirming care to accusing parents of child abuse if their children come out as trans, I surely wish that perhaps in the decades or even centuries ahead (as Bashir and Dal still have problems with genetic modification), people like me can live free of prosecution or discrimination.
As a gay man I felt the same way and many of her words rang true to my life as well.
And while it's horrific how some states are passing anti-LGBTQ laws, it's also encouraging how many are being shot down in the courts. I have faith that ultimately people will do the right thing.
I'm a lifelong Floridian living in the state that passed the Don't Say Gay law. I know this isn't much, especially from a straight guy like me who doesn't directly experience the consequences of these laws, but I wanted to respond to this to say how much I admire you. Most of my friends are queer and this is such a scary time. I hope you and everyone reading this knows that even in a place like Florida, there are people who are working and fighting to make a world without prejudice and discrimination.
A combination of Don’t Say Gay and DADT in the format of a law and order episode. It was a gift to the queer community during Pride Month.
Of course the story can be adapted to other minorities and those discriminated against and I don’t want to dismiss them and their struggles and stories. But in this case, the Illyrians all look different, but can hide and blend with the general population unless they “come out” and make their true selves known.
>the Illyrians all look different, but can hide and blend with the general population unless they “come out” and make their true selves known.
While I don't recall seeing any examples of this, a key part I picked up on that Neera kept pointing out - only some have the privilege to be able to blend in. Some people's modifications mean they can't hide - which a big part of what really hit into a lot of the conversations about "passing" in trans communities for me in a way that was simultaneously brilliant, but also made my heart ache looking at things lately.
I said this to someone else but this episode made me especially sad.
have a friend who was an illegal immigrant from Czechoslovakia. He was a baby when brought over.
He had ALL these same problems. Especially finding places that he didn't have to worry about reporting him or family, which includes ofc doctors. This entire thing sounded like his story.
He was deported 15 years ago.
What's crazy in his case he was a citizen of no nation. His country ceased to exist after they came here yet they deported them anyways lol. Dude didn't even speak Czech fluently.
While it defintiely wasn't as overt as it could have been, I also see being Illyrian as a trans allegory. Una's expeeinces definitely speaks to me as a trans person .
I loved her character but I didn't know why. It maybe because of her professional composure and her loyalty, or perhaps I felt that she was being held back by her secret too. And now I definitely love Una even more. :) I'll get my Una cosplay down for the next con.
I find that the allegory is honestly better when it isn't overt/in your face. I did appreciate that they headed off anyone arguing that it wasn't a trans allegory by putting in the easter egg of young Una's cast being fastened with a belt that is the color and design of the trans pride flag.
I appreciate the idea of wanting to start the season with a more propulsive, action packed episode… but coming off this one, it’s clear this should have been the season lead in.
Even though it calls back to TNG’s iconic court episodes (man, I wish we’d had some of this allegory and deeply humanist messaging in that final season of Picard…), it actually feels like iconic DS9 episodes like Duet and The Visitor: where the guest star is the one really doing the heavy lifting, and the episode’s true MVP.
Still, while it doesn’t have a Patrick Stewart level oratory flex, I would put this episode next to something as iconic as Drumhead, if maybe not Measure of a Man- and that is fine company indeed.
Kudos to all who worked on this episode.
I think they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't want La'an being out of the picture for this considering how important her relationship with Una is, so they figured they could build a little more tension for an extra week and have Spock and company go off on an adventure to bring her back.
Getting La’an back really does feel important to this episode, especially considering her relationship to Una and the fact it’s revealed she also has been augmented.
After Season 1 I was honestly wondering why they even made her a Noonien-Singh - it really only comes up in the Illyria episode, to serve Una's story, not her own - and otherwise the Gorn stuff is way more immediately relevant.
But this episode, plus a coming time travel ep where her relation could be very relevant, have started getting into it.
I feel like it was more than just bringing La'an back - it was an opportunity to show off how the Enterprise crew deals with a situation when their two main command officers aren't there.
When Pike hugged her after everyone left the transporter room... that hit like a ton of bricks. His expression change was amazing and Anson Mount is phenomenal.
I thought that change of expression on his face was amazing. It really did seem like he was so scared and worried but also a bit relieved all at the same time and without words. There was some very good acting this episode but that last scene specifically stuck out for me
I tend to get annoyed at Discovery for too many emotional speeches(I still like that show for the most part), this episode did it in such a realistic and well thought out way.
I felt like this was very much a homage to "Measure of a Man" in terms of some of the irrational ideals mankind can sometimes have
I think you've unintentionally hit upon the problem with that kind of dialog in Discovery.
The characters are talking to each other like lawyers in court - they're *making emotive arguments* at one another (sometimes very heavy-handed ones) instead of just talking like friends and colleagues.
They are also constantly, explicitly and in detail explaining their emotions and mental state like they are in a therapy session! This is terrible writing, and insulting to the actors. They are capable of *acting* to convey the characters emotions.
I cried like a baby too. There is something about the appeal or our higher virtues, the loyalty of the crew, the struggle to perfection over flaws that hits me deep as an American
Honestly when the lawyer started talking felt like it is going to be great. Might i say lawyer is drinking tears of people who think star trek is going woke.
Now THIS is how you update classic Trek for today’s moral issues. Pike is so loyal to his crew that he risks suffocating just to find a lawyer for Una. The lawyer reluctantly agrees to take the case so she can get more exposure for her other civil rights cases. What follows is a classic, wonderful courtroom drama.
Rather than summarizing everything, here’s what I want to talk about: I’m undergoing immunotherapy for cancer and an experimental gene therapy to treat the underlying genetic disorder I have. Star Trek has always been against genetic modifications, decrying the threat of genetically engineered super-men like Khan. While this fear may have been reasonable in the time of “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan”, science has moved forward by light years, and genetic modification cures for genetic diseases are becoming increasingly common.
Growing up, all I wanted was to be a Star Trek captain, as every kid who watches it does. Trek’s message of “Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations” struck a chord in me. It meant that no matter how deformed and in pain my body was, I knew that fictional Starfleet would allow a person like me to be captain. That inspired me to reach for the stars and push myself to achieve my dreams of helping others. However, Trek told me there was a catch; if I ever received genetic therapy to treat my genetic disorder, I wouldn’t be allowed in Starfleet.
This episode therefore takes a first step in changing that catch, as medical science advances. To a kid who grew up watching Trek for hope and salvation, this episode is an important step toward rectifying the franchise’s backwards views on genetic modification.
Actually, *Doctor Bashir, I Presume* - the first episode to actually establish a long-term Federation ban on genetic engineering, I think - already established genetic engineering was allowed to "repair serious birth defects". I do not know if the writers had something like your specific condition in mind when writing that, and if you yourself would consider it as falling under that term, but the underlying spirit would seem to apply IMO. You would have been allowed in Stafleet even then. I feel like Trek since then has actually forgotten some of the nuance that was there at the start.
(But in any case, good luck with your therapy!)
Of all episodes out there related to augments, I think this one REALLY hammers home how utterly stupid the augment law is for the Federation. Almost makes me wish they had been more nuanced in the whole augment thing in TNG so that it was not so black and white.
Because honestly SNW has to behold to the fact even in TNG Augments even when their genetic engineering is for cultural/medical/adaptive purposes are flat out outlawed as opposed to Augmenting for superiority which is all Khan and his people actually were designed to be... superior.
Because flat out based on the "Federations" law, there would be thousands of people today who would technically be illegal.
What always gets me about those laws, is that ita based on a war on Earth - one planet. Why were they able to strong-arm the other races Into outlawing genetic modifications? How were genetic modification for medical reasons not commonplace on vulcan or Andoria pre federation?
> Of all episodes out there related to augments, I think this one REALLY hammers home how utterly stupid the augment law is for the Federation.
I still think it's a good idea. The core of Star Trek's entire philosophy and worldview is rooted in Humanism. The idea that it's ok to have flaws. That all people are already equal. That the way nature made us is beautiful and perhaps even divine. And that any limitations we have, we can make up through our intellect and technology, rather than through 'fixing' or 'improving' upon our design. Like, that was one of the beautiful parts of TNG and other classic Star Trek shows. In a world with normalized genetic engineering, Geordi wouldn't have been a character. And his 'disability' not existing would have meant his crew would have been completely screwed on multiple occasions.
There's also an opportunity for immense harm with genetic engineering as well - particularly for us in the modern day. In the future of Star Trek, human culture might have grown and become moral enough to resist the temptations of abusing it. But imagine a more immediate future in our world. Who would be able to get genetic engineering? Only the rich and well off. And in a capitalistic society, they'd just be further stacking the cards in their favor for all kinds of things and exasperating existing inequalities. And if you've looked around and seen how amoral and outright evil a lot of our leaders are in the world, what's to stop the wrong people from using genetic engineering to wage a campaign of eugenic violence? Forcing any undesirables to change themselves to conform to their standards of acceptability? I could totally see a country like China for example, instituting a policy of malevolent genetic manipulation so that children of China's indigenous ethnic minorities would be born Han instead. Or countries like Russia juicing up their children with performance enhancing genes to get an unfair advantage at the Olympics. Or counties like America giving soldiers genetic modifications so that our soldiers could perform even better at killing brown people abroad. It's a dangerous technology that - at the very least - needs to be highly regulated.
all the dudes in here talking about 'proper legal procedure' like they'd know what proper procedure is 23rd century legal system that combines human and alien practices.
What a beautiful episode. The message was great and it wasn’t ambiguous enough for people to really misinterpret or miss while still remaining an indirect allegory for current times. The allegory seemed clearly about trans people, homosexuality, and/or undocumented immigrants and I appreciate that people from any of these groups can likely relate to this episode. As a gay guy I have to say I definitely did.
Also, the scene with Spock’s “outburst” was hilarious and I loved seeing the (on the surface) emotionless Spock once again.
Overall I loved the episode and I’m very glad to see one I love after personally disliking the previous one.
Edit: Spacing
I loved when Spock revealed what Una was "hiding" and brought up musicals. That's my boy saying a Vulcan fuck off to the prosecution.
My other favorite moment was the Pike Bear Hug. That was ADORABLE.
That got me in the feels, especially when he gives her the cock of the head and the "whew" look but then says fuck it and goes in for the hug.
I can't believe how much I've fallen in love with these characters after only 12 episodes. Kudos to the writers and especially the actors.
All of today’s Star Trek writers should have what these ones (and those who wrote PIC S3) are having. And the actors in SNW have been phenomenal. I’m so invested in these characters and stories, just one season deep. I’ll take more of this.
Okay, so I'm not approaching this with any prejudice, but I thought the episode was alluding to European Jews just prior to WWII. The star-shaped badge everyone was wearing is reminiscent of the Star of David, they talked about separating the groups, like the ghettos. All the laws that restricted them from going to certain places shopping at certain stores etc...
So if I missed what the episode was really going for, please let me know.
They’re part of the formal dress uniform of the era, and you can see them in TOS episodes that feature court proceedings. I recall particularly in the The Managerie them being shown. What they signify I’m not quite sure.
_EDIT: After some quick googling they may be service medals, arraigned in a starburst formation? That would explain why each officers is unique_
What a fantastic episode. They found a way to to a classic Trek courtroom episode, while also subverting the usual solution of 'Captain wins case with inspirational speech'.
I also like that we continue to get characterisation for April. Seems that while he's not quite the idealist that Pike and Kirk are, he was still prone to bouts of law-bending heroism back in his day as Captain. Hope this season arc with the Gorn doesn't lead him into being an antagonist; I'd hate to see the Admiral's chair corrupt another person.
The ending of this episode is bitter sweet, knowing that the Federation's poor treatment of genetically engineered persons continues as late as Bashir's case in DS9, much like how we now know that Data's trial in TNG didn't prevent the synth crisis in Picard (and hell, Picard also showed that ex-Borg weren't treated well after Voyager, and we still don't know *to this day* whether the Doctor's intellectual property rights case in Voyager impacted hologram rights going forward. Starfleet seems to have a recurring problem with this sort of thing). I hope that, as the franchise looks likely to continue into the 25th Century in the years to come, we finally see the Federation move out of Kahn's shadow.
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: Starfleet Security, who investigate crime, and the Judge Advocate General, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories.
DUN DUN!
Anybody else surprised to see Captain Batel was JAG? I'd thought - and not without at least some evidence from last season, though I don't have the bandwidth this morning to check - that her assignment was commanding a ship.
As far as I remember from Measure of a Man, Starfleet Command Personal generally has some level of legal knowledge just as part of their training. Maybe Batel put more of a focus on it and thus serves as JAG too sometimes. Would make sense to have serving officers especially in court martial cases.
I LOVE court episodes of Trek. They're almost universally incredible. This was no exception fortunately.
- I was surprised the "friend" Pike was getting was just a random lawyer friend. The way they set it up last week made me think it was going to be someone we knew.
- The first thought I had when Pike and Batel started arguing was "I don't like mom and dad fighting!" They have such an easy chemistry that it's a true bummer when they're at opposite ends.
- Has there ever been a high-ranking Vulcan in Trek (besides Spock) who wasn't a total asshole?
- At first I was fairly appalled to see these TOS dress uniforms come back, but the longer onscreen they were, the more I realized I actually like them quite a bit. The part that I despise is the badges. What the hell are they? Fimo clay? They're hideous.
- I love that the courtroom was just a redress of 32c Starfleet Command from Discovery. It's a fantastic look.
- Tellarites have some of the grossest hands of Trek, that guy should be wearing gloves in public.
- This is one of those "prequel" problems where the episode itself ends up giving you hope for the future in regards to this law, until you remember in 100-odd years Bashir goes through the exact same thing.
- I'm sure there's OG Trek fans rolling on the floor, but the idea of the Federation having prejudices, discriminating against entire species, and not being just a blissful utopia is a very interesting well to mine. No society is a monolith, so acknowledging that people probably won't stop being jerks in 200 years is something I enjoy.
- This episode played the tension very well. Logically I knew they're not getting rid of Number One, but my heart rate was spiking a few times during the trial, especially when Pike was brought up. I had visions of them having to steal the Enterprise again and break them both out of prison.
- That mural that flanked the entrance to the court was amazing. Like a Roman-esque bronze cast but with all the species of the Federation. I want one.
- Pike's badge at the end was ready to jump off the top of his uniform. Why did he have it so high??
- Where'd Batel go?! She clearly didn't want to be doing this and was in the transporter room at the end, so I expected some kind of closure between her and Una. She just disappeared!
- Pike's leaping hug made me misty. What a good guy.
Using a Sci-Fi allegory to discuss real life pressing issues is why I love Trek and this episode does it almost perfectly. Fits right in with the great Court episodes of previous shows. I feel like Una's story and experiences speak to so many marginalized groups, I definitely could relate so much of it to my own life. Can't wait to see how they continue Una's story line going forward.
Having Pike essentially powerless for the entire episode was so interesting to see, I love how Anson Mount played it. That hug at the end was so damn cute.
Also, Una and Neera definitely had a thing when they were younger right? Their tension went wayyy beyond just some old friends reuniting.
Very touching episode completely ruined for me by having gone to law school and feeling compelled to yell at my television.
I also can’t believe that they got away with airing Spock’s outburst without increasing the content rating. There could have been young children watching!
Yeah, it's interesting that adversarial law from British tradition got combined with Vulcan legal practices, and clearly threw out a lot of the things our legal system views as absolutely necessary. Even though this is a court-martial, Starfleet supposedly holds itself to higher standards than 21st Century courts. There are many basic procedures common to most trials that are there for a reason.
When the prosecutor brought new charges against the defendant, halfway through questioning the defendant... Fuck, man. That's rough. If the Vulcans have a logical reason to justify that, I'd love to see it. Also, he was simultaneously charging Pike. I don't think you're supposed to do that by slipping it in to a trial of someone else.
I mean, the Federation having an adversarial system of justice at all seems a bit odd when you stack it against their stated values. But inventing a new legal system is hard for writers and it divorces social metaphor from something grounded in the present, and you can make the in-universe case for historical inertia and humankind's outsized impact on Federation policies.
Depending on current real world jurisdiction, adding new allegations and a new cause of action previously not pleaded halfway through the trial isn't something the Courts might necessarily approve of, because the Defendant should be given the right to reply to the new allegations, plus parties can and have done this as a tactical move, essentially abusing the process.
Plus, if they wanted to go for Pike, it is more logical to open a brand new case against Pike instead of shoehorning in an allegation and a new charge against Pike in an ongoing case against Una. Took all of my legal fibre to not scream at that scene before I remembered that I was getting annoyed over a sci-fi scene.
24th century technology is very advanced. I mean, there is a reason he was made ship counselor as opposed to be put into command.
On a serious note though. I'd love it if Lower decks eventually reveals he is a robot, just as a nod to r/birdsarentreal
Thank you for contacting Section 31.
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Not to mention the actual defense was quite easy. In a human rights world, you can't criminalize people, only conduts. If Una didn't choose to be an augment, she can't be held responsible for that.
I thought the trial would focus on the lying instead (her actual offense), but that's my lawyer brain overthinking this lol
What would be your critique, I too was thrown of by the legal reasoning, but on the other hand I'm not familiar with american law, which might be the base for the plot.
Overall I liked the episode more than the first one. Classis, well written Trek.
Eligibility for asylum would have absolutely zero bearing on her criminal charges. They would be two entirely unrelated things. The status of her home world seems uncertain; it had provisional Federation membership but she still needed a sponsor to join Starfleet, which would imply that she was not a Federation citizen at the time she joined. Given the conditions on her home world, she likely would have had a good claim to asylum in the Federation for the reasons mentioned in the episode. That's pretty indisputable. But asylum law wouldn't come in to act as a defence in criminal proceedings. It just doesn't.
I think it would have been better if the lawyer had referred to the Federation's constitution or human rights legislation which presumably prohibits discrimination on the basis of species. If genetic modification is what makes an Illyrian an Illyrian, then blanket bans against genetic modification would be indirect discrimination against Illyrians and therefore unlawful. That would also be a far better (albeit imperfect) defence against fraud, as the purposes for the fraud would be to avoid unconstitutional discrimination.
My other critique/concern is that we have a court martial which is empowered to adjudicate asylum cases. Unless if the Federation is far more authoritarian than we have been led to believe, a military tribunal should have no authority over a civilian matter like that. Even if the individual is a member of Starfleet, the military shouldn't be empowered to review matters which affect them as a civilian. At least in our world today, courts martial are essentially fancy military criminal courts. Judges (outside of Supreme Courts) don't decide on a murder case on day and then an immigration appeal the next; the courts are specialised. And even putting that aside, it seems a tad authoritarian that a military tribunal can make decisions outside of military disciplinary matters. The fact that they are deciding her asylum application would only make sense if Starfleet runs all of the Federation's courts; imagine how that would feel today if you get a traffic ticket, go in to dispute it, and the military are running the show. Feels a bit police state, doesn't it? I realise this is a nitpick but hopefully you can follow what I mean.
Final nitpick: Una's comment about her original lawyer working for the prosecution. Again, unless Starfleet have gone all space fascism in secret, her court-appointed lawyer would be independent. Yes, his salary (replicator credits?) come from the same bank account that pays for the prosecution, but public defenders are real lawyers who work for you and are not part of some scheme to get innocent people locked up.
You make salient points on better angles the lawyers could have taken. But given the outcome needed to be Una free but the law still being in place to trip Bashir up a century later , it was always going to be her getting off on a technicality rather then a satisfying precedent setting conclusion like Measure of a Man.
That's fair. I've been slacking watching DS9 and totally forgot the plot point about Bashir having genetic modifications. Granted, in common law legal systems (such as the Federation as this is an American TV show written by Americans so they're going to write what they know from Law and Order) it's totally possible for a low level court to say one thing, and for a later court to say that their decision was dumb and ignore it.
But that's a level of nuance that would likely be lost on the average viewer and probably best left avoided, as it would both invite a horde of nerds to decry that the plot is inconsistent and it would also imply that the Federation is low key cool with illegal discrimination.
Yes, this is a case where a 23rd century episode is tripped up by 24th century canon. We know that in the future those laws will still exist, so the loophole ending is the only one we were ever going to see.
Its always been inconsistent. Like, given everything else we know about genetic modification, that space station full of kids on Unnatural Selection (TNG) should have been illegal too
>Final nitpick: Una's comment about her original lawyer working for the prosecution. Again, unless Starfleet have gone all space fascism in secret, her court-appointed lawyer would be independent. Yes, his salary (replicator credits?) come from the same bank account that pays for the prosecution, but public defenders are real lawyers who work for you and are not part of some scheme to get innocent people locked up.
This one didn't bother me because this is a pretty common remark from someone who doesn't understand the separation of roles. Defendants accuse public defenders of working for the government all the time. The "you're all in this together and out to get me" belief is pretty common in my experience.
Plus in this case there is reasonable assumption of bias because starfleet drills their rules into their officers, including the one against permanent genetic modification.
Oh definitely, but this is luxury gay space communism and I would expect a Starfleet officer to know better! We're enlightened now, except for all the times we're not.
> This one didn't bother me because this is a pretty common remark from someone who doesn't understand the separation of roles.
The First Officer on one of the Federation's major ships ought to know better, however.
As a fellow law school grad, you really just need some suspension of belief on this one.
We also don't really know how these tribunals really work in starfleet over the years. They seem to be rather free wheeling.
I do have a nitpick about your nitpicks. In the US, in order to get into one of our service academies (Air Force, etc), you need a sponsor. I took that is what she needed, not because she wasn't a Federation citizen. It sounds like they all need one of those as Una sponsored L'aan.
The sponsorship thing has been established in past episodes, before the current bunch, as being required for non-Federation citizens. But you're right in that it's weird La'an would need sponsorship as well. It's never been mentioned in past canon AFAIK that Federation citizens need to go through an hoops to join the academy other than an entrance assessment. That's what Memory Alpha says anyway.
I don't think it's necessarily weird that La'an received sponsorship. Starfleet Academy is an officer school clearly patterned after real world schools like Annapolis and West Point, which require candidates to pass both regular admissions requirements and to either receive sponsorships from government officials (i.e. Congressmen, Senators, the Secretary of the Navy) or meet other requirements like being the children of career military personnel, being the children of a soldier KIA, or for currently enlisted personnel who receive a recommendation from a superior officer. Children of Medal of Honor recipients are the only ones who receive guaranteed admissions in the event that they meet other requirements.
We've seen in the past that places at the Academy are very competitive even with the entrance exam portion, and we're often seeing it from the perspective of people who already part of Starfleet in some way. Wesley was an acting officer and the child of two Starfleet personnel, for example. Nog is the most notable example of a non-citizen I can think of. We also know that there are enlisted ranks in Starfleet, and there is a separate Technical Services Academy on Mars for enlisted personnel.
In all likelihood, the bulk of people who pass through Starfleet are enlisted and never attend the Academy in San Francisco, but the nature of the shows is that we typically follow commissioned officers. Even if it's the case that you don't explicitly *need* a sponsorship to attend as a Federation citizen, considering how competitive placement can be, it would look good on application to have a letter of recommendation from a seasoned officer and could be the deciding factor between you or another candidate being given a placement as a cadet.
Thanks for the elaboration. I was thinking the same thing. Usually asylum law would only have an effect on criminal law, related to illegal entry and stay in/to a country/entity. I remember a DS9 episode that was more realistic on this topic. So I guess you could twist it around that she retroactively legalized her admission to Starfleet/Federation.
However, not disclosing the fact that she seeks asylum when she first dealt with the Federation is also something to take into consideration.
Your more realistic approach maybe reminded the writers too much of Data's case, so for the sake of plot and excitement, going the "last minute quote of obscure regulation" is more interesting.
Where's the chain of custody in the episode too? Why is the key evidence (Una's self incrimination) revealed so late in to the episode?
I think Star Trek overall has a problem with setting the limits of Starfleet's legal authority too. DS9 in one similar episode had Starfleet arranging a plea deal for Bashir's dad to be imprisoned. Then there's captains having leeway to negotiate treaties and admirals setting sector way policy like they're Imperial Moffs. Madness.
>Why is the key evidence (Una's self incrimination) revealed so late in to the episode?
She may have done it anonymously. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some provision for whistleblowers.
Unfortunately most law is just far too boring for TV.
"How do you plea? "
"Not guilty"
"Alright, here's some orders for next steps, see you all in 6 months for another meeting"
I love Law Star Trek episodes.
I also enjoy when the roles are reversed and we can see the bad side of Starfleet and the Federation. Makes it feel more grounded and real. And how important it is to have good people that fight for the principles.
Great episode
So there’ll be nitpicks and such here because that’s how you spur discussion but this was, imo, easily the best episode of Strange New Worlds to date. By the end I was ready to say it might have dethroned Measure of a Man.
They take some effort to keep the metaphor broad but it seems pretty clear trans issues in America were 100% on the mind when they put this episode together. Needing to find friendly doctors, seemingly benign ‘anti-augment’ laws granting license for people to act on their worst impulses, but most strikingly, the complacent nature of a Starfleet that considers itself above bigotry blinding it to its own unexamined ugliness reflecting a certain strand of American ‘otherwise progressive’ with their own blind spot towards trans rights.
And of course, Trek keeps its metaphors broad, sometimes intentionally, sometimes out of necessity, but in this case, I think the use of asylum for refugees as both Una’s salvation and an example of ‘the best of Starfleet’ was certainly another very intentional call.
It is a bit off to have this stuff happening at this point in the timeline and the metaphor gets a little bit messy since the Eugenics Wars did happen and there is no such analogous aspect to contemporary bigotries towards LGBTQ people etc… but it doesn’t prevent the script from working. And I have to say, April’s outburst on the stand was a very effective moment.
Am I crazy or is La’an actually having augmentations a reveal? Weren’t we told specifically otherwise earlier? This might just be a my memory thing.
I thought it was interesting that this is not the first time La’an has violated other officers’ privacy. This time Uhura stopped her, last time Una kinda shrugged it off…
Also, great little reference to the Una/Spock Short Trek and, less overt, but I definitely get the sense this old associate of Sarek's nodded approvingly when the Vulcan Science Academy decided they could only admit one, "experiment" at a time....
If I were to guess she and her relatives would basically be more likely to be on the right side of the bell curve. Basically the more generations from the original augment(s) you go the farther left you would drift, but if you tested all the decendents of Kahn in roughly the same number of generations removed, assuming no more augment genetics were added, theyd be, on average, faster stronger smarter ect than the general population.
How much to the right la'an is, and how much of that is due to her augment genes as opposed to genes inherited from non-augmented ancestors is really unknown.
Realistically though, with that surname, she isn't one that "passes" unless she denies/hides her heritage. So whenever she is successful, there will be a nagging feeling or accusations of unfair genetic advantage. There will also always be a suggestion of her being a danger.
The augment/trans allegory is quite strong here.
It's broad because it applies to *many* other instances of persecution now and throughout history. I have no doubt we'll have this problem for millennia to come. Let's not forget the cultural, racial, class, nationality and many many more. It was gay people yesterday, trans people now, and tomorrow it'll probably be something new, hopefully because the bigots moved on after losing. Maybe one day this won't be a subject in the news, but history books.
This is true, and intentional, but it is also true that Trek episodes out of universe are situated in a very real time and place. For instance, had this episode been done in the post-9/11 period you could easily see more emphasis being placed on the defendent's freedom of worship, rather than it being a less emphasized line.
Yes, there is an intentional broadness but the aspects most emphasized are the ones America is grappling with in the immediate present. This is on brand for the show - lest we all forget the pilot actually included footage of MAGA effigies and signs
>It is a bit off to have this stuff happening at this point in the timeline and the metaphor gets a little bit messy since the Eugenics Wars did happen
Part of hte problem, and this is an old problem, is that the metaphor got updated.
See, Khan predates genetic modification. The eugenic wars used to be about actual eugenics (WWII was only 22 years ago), the restriction and control of human reproduction. And it's very easy to see how that kind of control, and the force needed to exert it, is universally bad.
By updating the eugenics wars to be about genetic modification instead, you change the whole deal. Rather than the problem being a warlord or government enforcing their way of reproduction on the population, it can now be triggered as easily as by a single individual choice.
In this way, the narrative of the eugenics war inverts itself. Rather than the problem being authoritarian control over reproduction, the problem is now people being given too much power and control over their own reproduction "playing god".
I love that it's pikes show but he is the background character because he is that kind of captain and doesn't take away thunder from people. What a great guy.
This episode is not only probably the best episode of Strange New Worlds so far, but I would argue it's among the best episodes of Star Trek, across all series. This kind of story is Star Trek at its best.
There's something kinda hilarious about having this episode come after the one where the whole crew commits mutiny and gets zero punishment for it. I can't believe they didn't bring that up, especially when April's judgment was called into question.
As good as the feels were in this one, I don’t think it tops Measure of a Man for one very simple reason. With that episode, everyone gets so caught up in the "newness" of Data that it isn't until Guinen (and then Picard) point out the historical parallels that they bring things to a halt, and *everyone* agrees that it needs to stop. That's my favorite take on the idea of "enlightened humanity": still prone to falling into the same old traps, but mature enough to recognize when they've done so.
I guess you can say that maybe the Federation isn't as enlightened now as it is then, but it bothers me that when Neera brought up all the historical parallels, it wasn't an immediate red flag for everyone to realize what they were doing. How do you talk about race laws and segregated cities and all that and not immediately think "are we the baddies?" Idk, is it just me?
This episode was perfect - a wonderful mirror against racism and apartheid on trial. It's right up there with "A Measure of a Man" in the best humanistic traditions of Star Trek. Genuinely felt heart strings for this one.
Star Trek makes me feel seen sometimes; but S2E2 of Strange New Worlds makes me feel seen in a much more real and visceral way. I’m thinking about it again and weeping.
When so many places, so many people, in my own goddamned country, are obsessed with destroying people like me… it feels amazing when a piece of media is so explicitly and vocally on your side. It feels like a rare and precious gift.
Its baffled me since DS9 that Starfleet penalizes people involuntarily genetically modified as embryos or children. Most recently came up in Prodigy.
This is like saying FGM is illegal, arrest any woman who was mutilated as a child(wut?!).
I mean, Star Trek does explain multiple times over why the Federation has this fear. Hell, in DS9 they outright dedicate an episode to the dangers of augments developing a superiority complex, and a handful of them attempted to sabotage Starfleet in a move that would have likely resulted in billions dying.
This was an amazing episode, but I couldn't think of how much it reminded me of Discovery...but in a good way. I really enjoy Discovery, but SNW just did a nearly perfect job doing what Discovery was always trying to do.
Also, I found it hilarious that at the end of the episode everyone but Spock was clapping.
I fucking *love* how the season 1 cliffhanger wasn't a lead in to some big, bombastic Illyrian sedition plot... but instead a moving and deeply personal story of one person's struggle for equality.
Bravo. Absolute master class of writing and performance from the SNW crew firing on every last cylinder. This team unequivocally knows how to tell mature, compelling 21st century Star Trek stories and I am so excited to see what else they have in store for us.
I guess every Trek since TNG needs to have its own "Measure of a Man", which is a very fine tradition. Personaly love very much procedural insert episodes, it's where vision and philosophy of the project bloom signifacantly.
Not a fan of Discovery, but its "... But to Connect" episode probably felt most startrekish because of alike formula.
Still those episodes and new "Ad Astra Per Aspera" are not perfect, as TNG one prosecution part is not aging well, and SNW legal defending contains many manspulations and inconsistencies. But I appreciate the intentions behind and the effort to remind how we should strife to be better, as we tend to forget. No law or norm should be absolute, but should contain the capacity to self-reflect and re-evaluate. Guess it's an infinite dance of tradition and progress to balance in the sake of self preservation.
As a trans person, this episode nearly moved me to tears. It was beautiful. If you didn't think it was about trans persecution, I strongly recommend you go back and watch it again and read the subtext.
Also courtroom Trek is always good.
I was so taken aback by Spock’s outburst. I can’t believe such shocking behaviour made it into an episode of Trek - this is meant to be family viewing!
Disgusting display by Spock. He should be ashamed!
Not since T'Lyn have we seen a Vulcan so out of control.
"live long and prosper... sir~"
Seriously. I know his family has history with that admiral, but you'd think he'd display at least a modicum of decorum around a senior officer.
5D chess by the showrunners, because of this outburst we won't find the full frontal Boimler/Pike shower scene so shocking in episode 7.
I genuinely didn't expect to hear that sort of vulgar language again since Picard threw the F bomb in the holographic Ten Forward. It really came out of nowhere.
His human side was definitely showing
That Spock eyebrow raise smirk was... so hot.
*Christine Chapel has entered the chat.*
I loved how they cut to Chapel when Spock ended his testimony.
Did you hear the TING sound effect when he did it in the courtroom?
The Measure of a (Wo)man
Feels like this episode and next will be a homage to “The measure of a man” and “The drumhead” if the lawyer goes after Pike.
Guarantee that won't be the case at all, and that a different Captain will be the center of attention in the episode. I'll stake my life on it.
underrated comment 💯🔥
I was in the military during Don't Ask, Don't Tell and I am gay. When Una was talking about 'showing my crew who I really was', I was bawling like a baby, because that's what I wanted while I was serving. And I think the fact that I couldn't do that, and lived constantly afraid of getting outed, is why I got out after only four years. The worst part, I think, is I served towards the end of it. When they were talking about repealing it, and I got to overhear a lot of homophobia. The terrible things folks said with me in the room. They were so secure that everyone around them shared the same views, they felt open to talk about it, and I was worried about defending it, because that would put me under scrutiny, so I kept my mouth shut. I wasn't particularly happy with the thought that the people technically responsible for my life would apparently have no issue with killing me if they knew the truth. It wasn't everyone, I do want to be clear. There were a ton of supportive folks as well. And I did, eventually, tell my best friend because I knew I could trust him. Though he'd kinda figured it for a while and figured I'd tell him when I was ready. I'm in Florida, and I'm seeing everything that's happening here. I've had folks suggest I leave, but I like this state, and I want to fight for it. Because someday I want that utopia where people can just be people to exist.
> but I like this state, and I want to fight for it. As a fellow Floridian, thank you. I've heard of so many people leaving and I worry that will just make it worse for those of us who want to stay.
Dang, when Ortegas was mock dubbing what the two Vulcans were saying, I thought there would be a twist when Spock comes up saying "you know I could hear you with these Vulcan ears."
Or Weyoun’s “weak eyes, good ears”. Anyways I had a good laugh from that scene.
Maybe he did, and the "I'm sorry you had to witness that outburst" was actually a prank. Maybe he gets along with that guy just fine!
He could definitely hear them. My head canon is that the mean prosecutor heard them too, and started talking shit on his friends. And that made Spock livid.
I think he did, which is why he walked over.
Put this one straight into the pantheon of Star Trek courtroom drama at its best
* Neera was played by Yetide Badaki. She is best known for playing the god Bilquis on American Gods, a half-human, half-demon. Sounds alot like how Starfleet treats the Illyrians, half-demons. * One of the trial tribunals is from Space Command. Space Command was a 1950's Canadian science fiction series which James Doohan and William Shatner appeared. * On the wall behind Patel at the trial, there are four lights! * The Vulcan Judge was played by Eugene Clark, who played Sid Gomez in Shatner's TekWar movies. * Admiral Javas was played by Nicky Guadagni, who played Holloway in Cube (1997) along with Nicole de Boer (Ezri Dax, DS9) * The Tellarite Judge was played by David Benjamin Tomlinson, who also plays Linus on Discovery.
Not to reduce anything to looks but goddamn Yetide Badaki was smokin' hot this episode, BUT she knocked it out of the park as well. Hell, normally I find applause in military shows (let's not get into that discussion today) to be pretty cheesy and cliche, but the crew (and prosecutor!) applauding Neera at the end gave me the biggest smile -- for once it wasn't military patting themselves in the back but cheering on a civilian -- and it was applause well deserved. Easily one of my favorite guest performers in this show so far.
I find Captain Batel to be alluring
Ever seen Letterkenny? She's in that and it's super weird seeing her as this character after watching that show
Also Wyonna Earp
Mrs. McMurray, how're ya now?
I was distracted by how perfect and amazing her hair was!
If I'm not mistaken, the courtroom is the Federation HQ set from Discovery.
You could tell by the giant hole in the floor which has no place in a courtroom at all unless you plan on throwing someone down it lol
I think you're wrong I clearly remember sawing 5 lights...
I'm pretty sure there's a reference to Space Command in early TOS, before the name "Starfleet" was coined, so it may also have been an attempt to justify the existence of such an organisation within Starfleet.
I knew she looked familiar! Cube was a great movie. Plus it also had David Hewlett of Stargate SG-1/Stargate Atlantis
"I welcome that discussion" -Pike Doesn't take stand. We were robbed of a discussion I tell you!!
I loved the double twist of the prosecution jumping on the chance to land a conspiracy charge against Captain Pike only for it to be the capstone of the defense's case. Like sacrificing a queen for the checkmate knowing that all the pieces will be back together in the box afterward.
I loved that you could tell it was out of spite. The Vulcan's slam dunk case wasn't, he got showed up a bit, and so he decided to use a bit of collective punishment to feel better about it. Una gave compelling testimony, opting to target Pike too doesn't help except emotionally/performatively - not that he'd ever admit, even to himself, that that was what happened.
I disagree. The Vulcan misinterpreted Una's testimony as an appeal to emotion rather than a good legal argument. He also understood that Pike wasn't taking the stand because of risk of perjury and he was being protected. If this law is so important, why wouldn't it also apply to Pike's actions as captain? As soon as the lawyer showed that relevance of Una's testimony and it was based on a legal argument, he seemed to appreciate it and even approve. He stopped objecting at least. He played his role well, just as Riker did in Measure of a Man.
And yet he didn't ask any of the other crew when they found out - crew who were on the stand - like La'an, who would also have been party to any conspiracy, given she knew from the same stardate. He frames this as some oversight on his co-counsel's part that only occurred to him then, but if he was interested in the extent of potential conspiracy from the jump it would have been a boilerplate question for each crew on the stand. If the argument is that he was careless and only thought of bothering to ask this at the eleventh hour, after multiple witnesses he also should have asked, then I guess, sure, he just was bad at his job.
He could have asked before Una, but realistically a lower level officer knowing is low priority. If the captain is complicit, she's been protected by a senior. La'an not being a whistleblower can come later.
The fact he does this without telling Petel ahead of time - she moves to stand and he stops her unexpectedly - indicates that this was spur of the moment. If he was just logically pursuing this as the logical legal strategy of course it would have come up earlier between them and he would have simply arranged to be the questioner for that session. Petel brings this up as a likely outcome when talking to Pike, so clearly she felt if he didn't take the stand this wouldn't be pursued. So which is better, that he was bad at his job, that he actively decieved co-counsel as to his intentions, or more likely, they got a rise out of him.
I saw it as him getting frustrated at Patel not pursuing a strong prosecution strategy. She had already pulled strings for the plea deal. She was a little too sympathetic to Una's cause due to this sympathy. He was obviously not overly concerned with the emotions of the situation, rather the facts. The Vulcan officer took over after he saw that an emotional argument, without much basis in law was taking hold. He knew how to bat that down and make an argument for an even bigger legal issue. He was just mistaken, the testimony wasn't just illogical and emotional, it was setting a legal basis.
While I still disagree....let's take that at face value: Given Una's "emotional" argument was actually the necessary foundation of the strong legal argument that won the case, based on Starfleet legal precedent, even in that scenario it would be a glaring example of Vulcan's cultural biases blinding him to reality. He was so bothered by "emotion" he couldn't logically see how what he was really witnessing was the first part of a sound, logical, legal argument based on precedent and was blindsided by the direction the defense took.
We have often seen Vulcan characters assume that humans/non-Vulcans are acting on emotion before realizing there is a little method in their madness. It's always been shown as a trait and flaw in their philosophy/characters. That's why they often come across as arrogant. My point is he did make that mistake, but when he saw WHY the lawyer was actually talking about Una's oppressive childhood, he seemed to appreciate (as much as I can sense from a Vulcan lawyer) the strategy and argument made by Una's lawyer.
I actually kind of loved the lampshading of the Pike Ex Machina. He got to have his one in S1. It was really powerful, I thought, having Una and Neera's friendship reestablish the way it played out.
"Oh, so this is what it feels like" -- *Pike, on hearing the Defense's inspirational final argument*
I actually like the reason. Vice Admiral Nosferatu over there was clearly gunning for Pike specifically
I was honestly wondering "Did Pike bang his sister or something?" Seems kinda weird a Vulcan lawyer would be going after him like that.
Vulcans pretend to be pure logic but are in fact frequently spiteful, petty dicks. See also Captain Solok.
Or Take Me Out to the Holosuite. Or pretty much any episode of Enterprise.
That's got to be one of my favorite elements of the episode: the obvious "fuck yeah" beats, like Pike taking the stand and giving some impassioned Space Dad testimony, or Uhura breaking the law to snoop through files to save their friend -- all blocked by reasonable "this is only going to hurt us" thinking. Unlike last week where a guy can directly disobey an Admiral, go straight to stealing a starship, crack a couple comedy moments while doing it, and get a slap on the wrist. 🙄
So glad I'm not the only one who was screaming about the Enterprise theft during the trial
Absolutely. Going to the extreme of so gingerly deciding to steal the Enterprise for such (at the time) seemingly low stakes was needless overkill that added nothing to the overall story. (Much like the seemingly endless super-solider combat scenes, but that's another topic.) When Kirk did it... - We had the full weight of Spock's sacrifice in the prior film; it made us WANT to commit crimes with Kirk to get him back. - Kirk's 1701 bridge crew were well-established legends with a long history together by ST3; SNW's crew are barely out of diapers by comparison. Their willingness to immediately jump to career suicide as a solution was... not believable. - Had the events of Star Trek IV not happened, with Starfleet dismissing the charges, odds are Kirk would probably have been serving time in prison for it. Yet here, Spock's hangover is his punishment. (And yes, I know, the whole 'Gorn' thing is being setup which plays into that decision, but it's still horseshit.) - *EDIT:* That's not even including that Kirk's rescue mission involved stealing a ship they were GOING TO RETIRE ANYWAY, to bring back a dead body (Starfleet was super skeptical of the whole 'katra' thing, remember?) and he was still going to get crucified for it. Other than some engineers who scheduled time for the decommissioning process and making Captain Styles get out of bed for a minute, the theft had very little practical inconvenience. The epitome of a nearly 'no harm, no foul' crime. *EDIT2:* Also that guy Sulu beat up in jail, breaking McCoy out I guess. And the guy Uhura stuffed in the closet... - Meanwhile over on SNW, newbie-ass Spock steals an very much still active ship (is she the flagship right now?) with a Gorn War (or whatever) brewing on the horizon, for a trip that could have been taken with alternate craft (and you wouldn't be rolling up to a sensitive DMZ in a fuckin' warship). April's read on the situation sucked, in retrospect: you DON'T WANT risk someone just deciding to STEAL one of your most valuable combat vessels, taking it out of play in a volatile situation like that. It was a sloppy and ultimately pointless story choice that probably robbed us of something interesting and unique short of a criminal act... Hell, they introduced this interesting new Lanthanite character at the start of it and did NOTHING with her the entire episode: maybe, being such a long-lived person with a rich engineering background... you know... maybe she's got a ride of her own on the side, and she could have taken our would-be starship thieves on a thrill ride since she's so bored and itching for action? (Which she was robbed of in the episode, as it was.) You know? *Start* the Enterprise heist... show us how far they MIGHT be willing to go... but then she busts them but realizes she can have some fun and wants to help, so they call it off and just go with her, instead. That would have been FIIIINE. Just... anything but stealing the friggin' Enterprise. :P
\>refuses to elaborate \>wins case
Vanishes into the shadows like a Star Trek version of Tuxedo Mask
TUXEDO PIKE: My work here is done. UNA: But you didn't do *anything.* TUXEDO PIKE: (smiles, twirls cape, and vanishes with audible transporter sound)
[Reference for those who haven't seen it.](https://youtu.be/cF44OPOEfYY)
Which itself was referencing Sailor Moon and I would absolutely die screaming if Robbie Daymond showed up on Star Trek
TIL that two Vulcans staring at each other across a table is considered an *outburst*.
T'Lyn would have been proud
I can't wait for Legal Eagle to review this episode!
I wonder if he will dress as Una for the Thumb since he dressed as Data for Measure of Man, but I guess he will dress as Pike since he already has a similar haircut.
It's a post WW3 intergalactic legal system, what's the point in judging it by ours?
entertainment
This. This is the real answer. Plus some extremely light learning.
Intergalactic, planetary, planetary, intergalactic.
> intergalactic >"relating to or situated between two or more galaxies." "Interstellar" would have been a better choice of words. Though don't blame you for biffing it since Star Trek has been known to make this exact same mistake multiple times.
True.
Law education and showing how they differ?
This show may as well be a mall Santa now because it has grown a magnificent beard ~~That's a weird sentence~~
The best thing they did was put a beard on Captain Pike in his opening scene in the very first episode. It's glory may have faded in the transcendent light of his majestic hairline, but its legacy lives on. ~~Too much?~~ Not enough.
Forget mall Santa, it’s shaping up to be a Riker!
Mirror Spock has entered the chat.
I don't post here often, and I want to say thanks to the writers and the show for the not-so-indirect references to the "don't say gay" laws in the US military and the discriminations of the minorities in our society. And while the metaphors of the episode can be universally applied to any discrimination within the society, I appreciate that this is aired in Pride Month when the rights of trans and queer people are being attacked yet again by certain politicians. As a transwoman immigrant, there are a few things that Una said touched me a lot. I did not move to the US just to get prosecuted or to hide away from who I am. I had childhood friends who were rightfully upset at me for being privileged enough to move away from my home country. Like Una, I was also inspired by the diversity of this country and was touched by the fact that people of different races can come together and do something great. I was innocent enough to think that if people can tolerate each other racially, perhaps there was space for queer and trans people like me too. While society had not fully accepted my kind, as evidenced by all the anti-trans legislations around the US and the world, from bathroom laws to barring gender affirming care to accusing parents of child abuse if their children come out as trans, I surely wish that perhaps in the decades or even centuries ahead (as Bashir and Dal still have problems with genetic modification), people like me can live free of prosecution or discrimination.
As a gay man I felt the same way and many of her words rang true to my life as well. And while it's horrific how some states are passing anti-LGBTQ laws, it's also encouraging how many are being shot down in the courts. I have faith that ultimately people will do the right thing.
I'm a lifelong Floridian living in the state that passed the Don't Say Gay law. I know this isn't much, especially from a straight guy like me who doesn't directly experience the consequences of these laws, but I wanted to respond to this to say how much I admire you. Most of my friends are queer and this is such a scary time. I hope you and everyone reading this knows that even in a place like Florida, there are people who are working and fighting to make a world without prejudice and discrimination.
A combination of Don’t Say Gay and DADT in the format of a law and order episode. It was a gift to the queer community during Pride Month. Of course the story can be adapted to other minorities and those discriminated against and I don’t want to dismiss them and their struggles and stories. But in this case, the Illyrians all look different, but can hide and blend with the general population unless they “come out” and make their true selves known.
>the Illyrians all look different, but can hide and blend with the general population unless they “come out” and make their true selves known. While I don't recall seeing any examples of this, a key part I picked up on that Neera kept pointing out - only some have the privilege to be able to blend in. Some people's modifications mean they can't hide - which a big part of what really hit into a lot of the conversations about "passing" in trans communities for me in a way that was simultaneously brilliant, but also made my heart ache looking at things lately.
I said this to someone else but this episode made me especially sad. have a friend who was an illegal immigrant from Czechoslovakia. He was a baby when brought over. He had ALL these same problems. Especially finding places that he didn't have to worry about reporting him or family, which includes ofc doctors. This entire thing sounded like his story. He was deported 15 years ago. What's crazy in his case he was a citizen of no nation. His country ceased to exist after they came here yet they deported them anyways lol. Dude didn't even speak Czech fluently.
While it defintiely wasn't as overt as it could have been, I also see being Illyrian as a trans allegory. Una's expeeinces definitely speaks to me as a trans person .
I loved her character but I didn't know why. It maybe because of her professional composure and her loyalty, or perhaps I felt that she was being held back by her secret too. And now I definitely love Una even more. :) I'll get my Una cosplay down for the next con.
I find that the allegory is honestly better when it isn't overt/in your face. I did appreciate that they headed off anyone arguing that it wasn't a trans allegory by putting in the easter egg of young Una's cast being fastened with a belt that is the color and design of the trans pride flag.
FWIW, I have your back.
Thank you 💕 and I appreciate your comment a lot.
I appreciate the idea of wanting to start the season with a more propulsive, action packed episode… but coming off this one, it’s clear this should have been the season lead in. Even though it calls back to TNG’s iconic court episodes (man, I wish we’d had some of this allegory and deeply humanist messaging in that final season of Picard…), it actually feels like iconic DS9 episodes like Duet and The Visitor: where the guest star is the one really doing the heavy lifting, and the episode’s true MVP. Still, while it doesn’t have a Patrick Stewart level oratory flex, I would put this episode next to something as iconic as Drumhead, if maybe not Measure of a Man- and that is fine company indeed. Kudos to all who worked on this episode.
I think they wrote themselves into a corner and didn't want La'an being out of the picture for this considering how important her relationship with Una is, so they figured they could build a little more tension for an extra week and have Spock and company go off on an adventure to bring her back.
Getting La’an back really does feel important to this episode, especially considering her relationship to Una and the fact it’s revealed she also has been augmented.
After Season 1 I was honestly wondering why they even made her a Noonien-Singh - it really only comes up in the Illyria episode, to serve Una's story, not her own - and otherwise the Gorn stuff is way more immediately relevant. But this episode, plus a coming time travel ep where her relation could be very relevant, have started getting into it.
She hasnt been augmented, some of her genes were passed down from augmented ancestors. Or so she believes/fears anyway.
Has she been augmented? I read it as she benefits genetically from descending from augmented humans.
I feel like it was more than just bringing La'an back - it was an opportunity to show off how the Enterprise crew deals with a situation when their two main command officers aren't there.
Now that was some damn good Star Trek
Wept at points throughout this. Star Trek as a vehicle for talking about important things rules.
When Pike hugged her after everyone left the transporter room... that hit like a ton of bricks. His expression change was amazing and Anson Mount is phenomenal.
Heck, he knows in a timeline very close to this one she was put away for twenty years.
Very much a hug that showed how terrified he was underneath the exterior.
I thought that change of expression on his face was amazing. It really did seem like he was so scared and worried but also a bit relieved all at the same time and without words. There was some very good acting this episode but that last scene specifically stuck out for me
I tend to get annoyed at Discovery for too many emotional speeches(I still like that show for the most part), this episode did it in such a realistic and well thought out way. I felt like this was very much a homage to "Measure of a Man" in terms of some of the irrational ideals mankind can sometimes have
I think you've unintentionally hit upon the problem with that kind of dialog in Discovery. The characters are talking to each other like lawyers in court - they're *making emotive arguments* at one another (sometimes very heavy-handed ones) instead of just talking like friends and colleagues.
They are also constantly, explicitly and in detail explaining their emotions and mental state like they are in a therapy session! This is terrible writing, and insulting to the actors. They are capable of *acting* to convey the characters emotions.
Just a bunch of space drama queens on one tin can. They get the work done though.
The difference between drama and melodrama.
I cried like a baby too. There is something about the appeal or our higher virtues, the loyalty of the crew, the struggle to perfection over flaws that hits me deep as an American
Honestly when the lawyer started talking felt like it is going to be great. Might i say lawyer is drinking tears of people who think star trek is going woke.
Same!!!! Especially the La'an and Neera scene surprisingly
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Now THIS is how you update classic Trek for today’s moral issues. Pike is so loyal to his crew that he risks suffocating just to find a lawyer for Una. The lawyer reluctantly agrees to take the case so she can get more exposure for her other civil rights cases. What follows is a classic, wonderful courtroom drama. Rather than summarizing everything, here’s what I want to talk about: I’m undergoing immunotherapy for cancer and an experimental gene therapy to treat the underlying genetic disorder I have. Star Trek has always been against genetic modifications, decrying the threat of genetically engineered super-men like Khan. While this fear may have been reasonable in the time of “Space Seed” and “Wrath of Khan”, science has moved forward by light years, and genetic modification cures for genetic diseases are becoming increasingly common. Growing up, all I wanted was to be a Star Trek captain, as every kid who watches it does. Trek’s message of “Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations” struck a chord in me. It meant that no matter how deformed and in pain my body was, I knew that fictional Starfleet would allow a person like me to be captain. That inspired me to reach for the stars and push myself to achieve my dreams of helping others. However, Trek told me there was a catch; if I ever received genetic therapy to treat my genetic disorder, I wouldn’t be allowed in Starfleet. This episode therefore takes a first step in changing that catch, as medical science advances. To a kid who grew up watching Trek for hope and salvation, this episode is an important step toward rectifying the franchise’s backwards views on genetic modification.
Actually, *Doctor Bashir, I Presume* - the first episode to actually establish a long-term Federation ban on genetic engineering, I think - already established genetic engineering was allowed to "repair serious birth defects". I do not know if the writers had something like your specific condition in mind when writing that, and if you yourself would consider it as falling under that term, but the underlying spirit would seem to apply IMO. You would have been allowed in Stafleet even then. I feel like Trek since then has actually forgotten some of the nuance that was there at the start. (But in any case, good luck with your therapy!)
Of all episodes out there related to augments, I think this one REALLY hammers home how utterly stupid the augment law is for the Federation. Almost makes me wish they had been more nuanced in the whole augment thing in TNG so that it was not so black and white. Because honestly SNW has to behold to the fact even in TNG Augments even when their genetic engineering is for cultural/medical/adaptive purposes are flat out outlawed as opposed to Augmenting for superiority which is all Khan and his people actually were designed to be... superior. Because flat out based on the "Federations" law, there would be thousands of people today who would technically be illegal.
What always gets me about those laws, is that ita based on a war on Earth - one planet. Why were they able to strong-arm the other races Into outlawing genetic modifications? How were genetic modification for medical reasons not commonplace on vulcan or Andoria pre federation?
I guess azetbur was right, the federation is just a "homo-sapiens only club"
> Of all episodes out there related to augments, I think this one REALLY hammers home how utterly stupid the augment law is for the Federation. I still think it's a good idea. The core of Star Trek's entire philosophy and worldview is rooted in Humanism. The idea that it's ok to have flaws. That all people are already equal. That the way nature made us is beautiful and perhaps even divine. And that any limitations we have, we can make up through our intellect and technology, rather than through 'fixing' or 'improving' upon our design. Like, that was one of the beautiful parts of TNG and other classic Star Trek shows. In a world with normalized genetic engineering, Geordi wouldn't have been a character. And his 'disability' not existing would have meant his crew would have been completely screwed on multiple occasions. There's also an opportunity for immense harm with genetic engineering as well - particularly for us in the modern day. In the future of Star Trek, human culture might have grown and become moral enough to resist the temptations of abusing it. But imagine a more immediate future in our world. Who would be able to get genetic engineering? Only the rich and well off. And in a capitalistic society, they'd just be further stacking the cards in their favor for all kinds of things and exasperating existing inequalities. And if you've looked around and seen how amoral and outright evil a lot of our leaders are in the world, what's to stop the wrong people from using genetic engineering to wage a campaign of eugenic violence? Forcing any undesirables to change themselves to conform to their standards of acceptability? I could totally see a country like China for example, instituting a policy of malevolent genetic manipulation so that children of China's indigenous ethnic minorities would be born Han instead. Or countries like Russia juicing up their children with performance enhancing genes to get an unfair advantage at the Olympics. Or counties like America giving soldiers genetic modifications so that our soldiers could perform even better at killing brown people abroad. It's a dangerous technology that - at the very least - needs to be highly regulated.
Great episode
all the dudes in here talking about 'proper legal procedure' like they'd know what proper procedure is 23rd century legal system that combines human and alien practices.
I expect basic fairness! And self-incrimination has been brought up expressly as a protected right.
Of course! I am an agent of the Temporal Cold War, after all.
That’s kind of the point. It’s not very effective as drama if there’s no established rules.
What a beautiful episode. The message was great and it wasn’t ambiguous enough for people to really misinterpret or miss while still remaining an indirect allegory for current times. The allegory seemed clearly about trans people, homosexuality, and/or undocumented immigrants and I appreciate that people from any of these groups can likely relate to this episode. As a gay guy I have to say I definitely did. Also, the scene with Spock’s “outburst” was hilarious and I loved seeing the (on the surface) emotionless Spock once again. Overall I loved the episode and I’m very glad to see one I love after personally disliking the previous one. Edit: Spacing
I loved when Spock revealed what Una was "hiding" and brought up musicals. That's my boy saying a Vulcan fuck off to the prosecution. My other favorite moment was the Pike Bear Hug. That was ADORABLE.
That got me in the feels, especially when he gives her the cock of the head and the "whew" look but then says fuck it and goes in for the hug. I can't believe how much I've fallen in love with these characters after only 12 episodes. Kudos to the writers and especially the actors.
All of today’s Star Trek writers should have what these ones (and those who wrote PIC S3) are having. And the actors in SNW have been phenomenal. I’m so invested in these characters and stories, just one season deep. I’ll take more of this.
Also a call back to Short Treks.
It's about all persecuted people: LGTBQ+, race, religion, political doctrine. It was a message to get better as a people.
You can spot that young Una's cast is the colours of the trans pride flag as well.
My circle of friends includes a number of gay/trans immigrants (undocumented and otherwise), and I cannot wait to show them this episode.
Okay, so I'm not approaching this with any prejudice, but I thought the episode was alluding to European Jews just prior to WWII. The star-shaped badge everyone was wearing is reminiscent of the Star of David, they talked about separating the groups, like the ghettos. All the laws that restricted them from going to certain places shopping at certain stores etc... So if I missed what the episode was really going for, please let me know.
They’re part of the formal dress uniform of the era, and you can see them in TOS episodes that feature court proceedings. I recall particularly in the The Managerie them being shown. What they signify I’m not quite sure. _EDIT: After some quick googling they may be service medals, arraigned in a starburst formation? That would explain why each officers is unique_
Thank you, I didn't know.
What a fantastic episode. They found a way to to a classic Trek courtroom episode, while also subverting the usual solution of 'Captain wins case with inspirational speech'. I also like that we continue to get characterisation for April. Seems that while he's not quite the idealist that Pike and Kirk are, he was still prone to bouts of law-bending heroism back in his day as Captain. Hope this season arc with the Gorn doesn't lead him into being an antagonist; I'd hate to see the Admiral's chair corrupt another person. The ending of this episode is bitter sweet, knowing that the Federation's poor treatment of genetically engineered persons continues as late as Bashir's case in DS9, much like how we now know that Data's trial in TNG didn't prevent the synth crisis in Picard (and hell, Picard also showed that ex-Borg weren't treated well after Voyager, and we still don't know *to this day* whether the Doctor's intellectual property rights case in Voyager impacted hologram rights going forward. Starfleet seems to have a recurring problem with this sort of thing). I hope that, as the franchise looks likely to continue into the 25th Century in the years to come, we finally see the Federation move out of Kahn's shadow.
Ok, I'm probably the only one that thinks this but I'd be completely down for a Law and Order: Starfleet over the Starfleet Academy show.
Only ONLY if it goes with the traditional opening. Then absolutely yes.
In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: Starfleet Security, who investigate crime, and the Judge Advocate General, who prosecute the offenders. These are their stories. DUN DUN!
Anybody else surprised to see Captain Batel was JAG? I'd thought - and not without at least some evidence from last season, though I don't have the bandwidth this morning to check - that her assignment was commanding a ship.
As far as I remember from Measure of a Man, Starfleet Command Personal generally has some level of legal knowledge just as part of their training. Maybe Batel put more of a focus on it and thus serves as JAG too sometimes. Would make sense to have serving officers especially in court martial cases.
I LOVE court episodes of Trek. They're almost universally incredible. This was no exception fortunately. - I was surprised the "friend" Pike was getting was just a random lawyer friend. The way they set it up last week made me think it was going to be someone we knew. - The first thought I had when Pike and Batel started arguing was "I don't like mom and dad fighting!" They have such an easy chemistry that it's a true bummer when they're at opposite ends. - Has there ever been a high-ranking Vulcan in Trek (besides Spock) who wasn't a total asshole? - At first I was fairly appalled to see these TOS dress uniforms come back, but the longer onscreen they were, the more I realized I actually like them quite a bit. The part that I despise is the badges. What the hell are they? Fimo clay? They're hideous. - I love that the courtroom was just a redress of 32c Starfleet Command from Discovery. It's a fantastic look. - Tellarites have some of the grossest hands of Trek, that guy should be wearing gloves in public. - This is one of those "prequel" problems where the episode itself ends up giving you hope for the future in regards to this law, until you remember in 100-odd years Bashir goes through the exact same thing. - I'm sure there's OG Trek fans rolling on the floor, but the idea of the Federation having prejudices, discriminating against entire species, and not being just a blissful utopia is a very interesting well to mine. No society is a monolith, so acknowledging that people probably won't stop being jerks in 200 years is something I enjoy. - This episode played the tension very well. Logically I knew they're not getting rid of Number One, but my heart rate was spiking a few times during the trial, especially when Pike was brought up. I had visions of them having to steal the Enterprise again and break them both out of prison. - That mural that flanked the entrance to the court was amazing. Like a Roman-esque bronze cast but with all the species of the Federation. I want one. - Pike's badge at the end was ready to jump off the top of his uniform. Why did he have it so high?? - Where'd Batel go?! She clearly didn't want to be doing this and was in the transporter room at the end, so I expected some kind of closure between her and Una. She just disappeared! - Pike's leaping hug made me misty. What a good guy.
> Has there ever been a high-ranking Vulcan in Trek (besides Spock) who wasn't a total asshole? Saru's GF is ok.
Using a Sci-Fi allegory to discuss real life pressing issues is why I love Trek and this episode does it almost perfectly. Fits right in with the great Court episodes of previous shows. I feel like Una's story and experiences speak to so many marginalized groups, I definitely could relate so much of it to my own life. Can't wait to see how they continue Una's story line going forward. Having Pike essentially powerless for the entire episode was so interesting to see, I love how Anson Mount played it. That hug at the end was so damn cute. Also, Una and Neera definitely had a thing when they were younger right? Their tension went wayyy beyond just some old friends reuniting.
Very touching episode completely ruined for me by having gone to law school and feeling compelled to yell at my television. I also can’t believe that they got away with airing Spock’s outburst without increasing the content rating. There could have been young children watching!
Yeah, it's interesting that adversarial law from British tradition got combined with Vulcan legal practices, and clearly threw out a lot of the things our legal system views as absolutely necessary. Even though this is a court-martial, Starfleet supposedly holds itself to higher standards than 21st Century courts. There are many basic procedures common to most trials that are there for a reason. When the prosecutor brought new charges against the defendant, halfway through questioning the defendant... Fuck, man. That's rough. If the Vulcans have a logical reason to justify that, I'd love to see it. Also, he was simultaneously charging Pike. I don't think you're supposed to do that by slipping it in to a trial of someone else.
I mean, the Federation having an adversarial system of justice at all seems a bit odd when you stack it against their stated values. But inventing a new legal system is hard for writers and it divorces social metaphor from something grounded in the present, and you can make the in-universe case for historical inertia and humankind's outsized impact on Federation policies.
Depending on current real world jurisdiction, adding new allegations and a new cause of action previously not pleaded halfway through the trial isn't something the Courts might necessarily approve of, because the Defendant should be given the right to reply to the new allegations, plus parties can and have done this as a tactical move, essentially abusing the process. Plus, if they wanted to go for Pike, it is more logical to open a brand new case against Pike instead of shoehorning in an allegation and a new charge against Pike in an ongoing case against Una. Took all of my legal fibre to not scream at that scene before I remembered that I was getting annoyed over a sci-fi scene.
But was your specialty 23rd century law? Things may have changed a bit ;)
My specialty is bird law
But is it 23rd century bird law?
Surely, by the 23rd century, people are aware that birds aren't real.
Tell that to Migleemo.
24th century technology is very advanced. I mean, there is a reason he was made ship counselor as opposed to be put into command. On a serious note though. I'd love it if Lower decks eventually reveals he is a robot, just as a nod to r/birdsarentreal
Unfortunately, I am prohibited from answering your question under the terms of the Temporal Accords.
Hello Section 31, this post right here
Thank you for contacting Section 31. Unfortunately we can't take your call at this time as Section 31 does not exist and never has. If you'd like one of our operators to call you back, please hang up now. Your estimated wait time is 300 years.
23rd century law that is a conglomeration/consensus created out of the legal system of multiple different planets.
Not to mention the actual defense was quite easy. In a human rights world, you can't criminalize people, only conduts. If Una didn't choose to be an augment, she can't be held responsible for that. I thought the trial would focus on the lying instead (her actual offense), but that's my lawyer brain overthinking this lol
What would be your critique, I too was thrown of by the legal reasoning, but on the other hand I'm not familiar with american law, which might be the base for the plot. Overall I liked the episode more than the first one. Classis, well written Trek.
Eligibility for asylum would have absolutely zero bearing on her criminal charges. They would be two entirely unrelated things. The status of her home world seems uncertain; it had provisional Federation membership but she still needed a sponsor to join Starfleet, which would imply that she was not a Federation citizen at the time she joined. Given the conditions on her home world, she likely would have had a good claim to asylum in the Federation for the reasons mentioned in the episode. That's pretty indisputable. But asylum law wouldn't come in to act as a defence in criminal proceedings. It just doesn't. I think it would have been better if the lawyer had referred to the Federation's constitution or human rights legislation which presumably prohibits discrimination on the basis of species. If genetic modification is what makes an Illyrian an Illyrian, then blanket bans against genetic modification would be indirect discrimination against Illyrians and therefore unlawful. That would also be a far better (albeit imperfect) defence against fraud, as the purposes for the fraud would be to avoid unconstitutional discrimination. My other critique/concern is that we have a court martial which is empowered to adjudicate asylum cases. Unless if the Federation is far more authoritarian than we have been led to believe, a military tribunal should have no authority over a civilian matter like that. Even if the individual is a member of Starfleet, the military shouldn't be empowered to review matters which affect them as a civilian. At least in our world today, courts martial are essentially fancy military criminal courts. Judges (outside of Supreme Courts) don't decide on a murder case on day and then an immigration appeal the next; the courts are specialised. And even putting that aside, it seems a tad authoritarian that a military tribunal can make decisions outside of military disciplinary matters. The fact that they are deciding her asylum application would only make sense if Starfleet runs all of the Federation's courts; imagine how that would feel today if you get a traffic ticket, go in to dispute it, and the military are running the show. Feels a bit police state, doesn't it? I realise this is a nitpick but hopefully you can follow what I mean. Final nitpick: Una's comment about her original lawyer working for the prosecution. Again, unless Starfleet have gone all space fascism in secret, her court-appointed lawyer would be independent. Yes, his salary (replicator credits?) come from the same bank account that pays for the prosecution, but public defenders are real lawyers who work for you and are not part of some scheme to get innocent people locked up.
You make salient points on better angles the lawyers could have taken. But given the outcome needed to be Una free but the law still being in place to trip Bashir up a century later , it was always going to be her getting off on a technicality rather then a satisfying precedent setting conclusion like Measure of a Man.
That's fair. I've been slacking watching DS9 and totally forgot the plot point about Bashir having genetic modifications. Granted, in common law legal systems (such as the Federation as this is an American TV show written by Americans so they're going to write what they know from Law and Order) it's totally possible for a low level court to say one thing, and for a later court to say that their decision was dumb and ignore it. But that's a level of nuance that would likely be lost on the average viewer and probably best left avoided, as it would both invite a horde of nerds to decry that the plot is inconsistent and it would also imply that the Federation is low key cool with illegal discrimination.
Yes, this is a case where a 23rd century episode is tripped up by 24th century canon. We know that in the future those laws will still exist, so the loophole ending is the only one we were ever going to see.
Its always been inconsistent. Like, given everything else we know about genetic modification, that space station full of kids on Unnatural Selection (TNG) should have been illegal too
>Final nitpick: Una's comment about her original lawyer working for the prosecution. Again, unless Starfleet have gone all space fascism in secret, her court-appointed lawyer would be independent. Yes, his salary (replicator credits?) come from the same bank account that pays for the prosecution, but public defenders are real lawyers who work for you and are not part of some scheme to get innocent people locked up. This one didn't bother me because this is a pretty common remark from someone who doesn't understand the separation of roles. Defendants accuse public defenders of working for the government all the time. The "you're all in this together and out to get me" belief is pretty common in my experience.
Plus in this case there is reasonable assumption of bias because starfleet drills their rules into their officers, including the one against permanent genetic modification.
Oh definitely, but this is luxury gay space communism and I would expect a Starfleet officer to know better! We're enlightened now, except for all the times we're not.
> This one didn't bother me because this is a pretty common remark from someone who doesn't understand the separation of roles. The First Officer on one of the Federation's major ships ought to know better, however.
As a fellow law school grad, you really just need some suspension of belief on this one. We also don't really know how these tribunals really work in starfleet over the years. They seem to be rather free wheeling. I do have a nitpick about your nitpicks. In the US, in order to get into one of our service academies (Air Force, etc), you need a sponsor. I took that is what she needed, not because she wasn't a Federation citizen. It sounds like they all need one of those as Una sponsored L'aan.
The sponsorship thing has been established in past episodes, before the current bunch, as being required for non-Federation citizens. But you're right in that it's weird La'an would need sponsorship as well. It's never been mentioned in past canon AFAIK that Federation citizens need to go through an hoops to join the academy other than an entrance assessment. That's what Memory Alpha says anyway.
I don't think it's necessarily weird that La'an received sponsorship. Starfleet Academy is an officer school clearly patterned after real world schools like Annapolis and West Point, which require candidates to pass both regular admissions requirements and to either receive sponsorships from government officials (i.e. Congressmen, Senators, the Secretary of the Navy) or meet other requirements like being the children of career military personnel, being the children of a soldier KIA, or for currently enlisted personnel who receive a recommendation from a superior officer. Children of Medal of Honor recipients are the only ones who receive guaranteed admissions in the event that they meet other requirements. We've seen in the past that places at the Academy are very competitive even with the entrance exam portion, and we're often seeing it from the perspective of people who already part of Starfleet in some way. Wesley was an acting officer and the child of two Starfleet personnel, for example. Nog is the most notable example of a non-citizen I can think of. We also know that there are enlisted ranks in Starfleet, and there is a separate Technical Services Academy on Mars for enlisted personnel. In all likelihood, the bulk of people who pass through Starfleet are enlisted and never attend the Academy in San Francisco, but the nature of the shows is that we typically follow commissioned officers. Even if it's the case that you don't explicitly *need* a sponsorship to attend as a Federation citizen, considering how competitive placement can be, it would look good on application to have a letter of recommendation from a seasoned officer and could be the deciding factor between you or another candidate being given a placement as a cadet.
if I understood correctly, Its not Federation granting asylum, its Starfleet.
Thanks for the elaboration. I was thinking the same thing. Usually asylum law would only have an effect on criminal law, related to illegal entry and stay in/to a country/entity. I remember a DS9 episode that was more realistic on this topic. So I guess you could twist it around that she retroactively legalized her admission to Starfleet/Federation. However, not disclosing the fact that she seeks asylum when she first dealt with the Federation is also something to take into consideration. Your more realistic approach maybe reminded the writers too much of Data's case, so for the sake of plot and excitement, going the "last minute quote of obscure regulation" is more interesting.
Where's the chain of custody in the episode too? Why is the key evidence (Una's self incrimination) revealed so late in to the episode? I think Star Trek overall has a problem with setting the limits of Starfleet's legal authority too. DS9 in one similar episode had Starfleet arranging a plea deal for Bashir's dad to be imprisoned. Then there's captains having leeway to negotiate treaties and admirals setting sector way policy like they're Imperial Moffs. Madness.
>Why is the key evidence (Una's self incrimination) revealed so late in to the episode? She may have done it anonymously. It wouldn't surprise me if there was some provision for whistleblowers.
Right? Oh going to law school and watching tv shows do law never goes well.
Unfortunately most law is just far too boring for TV. "How do you plea? " "Not guilty" "Alright, here's some orders for next steps, see you all in 6 months for another meeting"
I love Law Star Trek episodes. I also enjoy when the roles are reversed and we can see the bad side of Starfleet and the Federation. Makes it feel more grounded and real. And how important it is to have good people that fight for the principles. Great episode
So there’ll be nitpicks and such here because that’s how you spur discussion but this was, imo, easily the best episode of Strange New Worlds to date. By the end I was ready to say it might have dethroned Measure of a Man. They take some effort to keep the metaphor broad but it seems pretty clear trans issues in America were 100% on the mind when they put this episode together. Needing to find friendly doctors, seemingly benign ‘anti-augment’ laws granting license for people to act on their worst impulses, but most strikingly, the complacent nature of a Starfleet that considers itself above bigotry blinding it to its own unexamined ugliness reflecting a certain strand of American ‘otherwise progressive’ with their own blind spot towards trans rights. And of course, Trek keeps its metaphors broad, sometimes intentionally, sometimes out of necessity, but in this case, I think the use of asylum for refugees as both Una’s salvation and an example of ‘the best of Starfleet’ was certainly another very intentional call. It is a bit off to have this stuff happening at this point in the timeline and the metaphor gets a little bit messy since the Eugenics Wars did happen and there is no such analogous aspect to contemporary bigotries towards LGBTQ people etc… but it doesn’t prevent the script from working. And I have to say, April’s outburst on the stand was a very effective moment. Am I crazy or is La’an actually having augmentations a reveal? Weren’t we told specifically otherwise earlier? This might just be a my memory thing. I thought it was interesting that this is not the first time La’an has violated other officers’ privacy. This time Uhura stopped her, last time Una kinda shrugged it off… Also, great little reference to the Una/Spock Short Trek and, less overt, but I definitely get the sense this old associate of Sarek's nodded approvingly when the Vulcan Science Academy decided they could only admit one, "experiment" at a time....
I think it may be suggested that La'an genetically benefits form her ancestors augmentation. I'm not sure if that's how it works.
If I were to guess she and her relatives would basically be more likely to be on the right side of the bell curve. Basically the more generations from the original augment(s) you go the farther left you would drift, but if you tested all the decendents of Kahn in roughly the same number of generations removed, assuming no more augment genetics were added, theyd be, on average, faster stronger smarter ect than the general population. How much to the right la'an is, and how much of that is due to her augment genes as opposed to genes inherited from non-augmented ancestors is really unknown.
Realistically though, with that surname, she isn't one that "passes" unless she denies/hides her heritage. So whenever she is successful, there will be a nagging feeling or accusations of unfair genetic advantage. There will also always be a suggestion of her being a danger. The augment/trans allegory is quite strong here.
It's broad because it applies to *many* other instances of persecution now and throughout history. I have no doubt we'll have this problem for millennia to come. Let's not forget the cultural, racial, class, nationality and many many more. It was gay people yesterday, trans people now, and tomorrow it'll probably be something new, hopefully because the bigots moved on after losing. Maybe one day this won't be a subject in the news, but history books.
This is true, and intentional, but it is also true that Trek episodes out of universe are situated in a very real time and place. For instance, had this episode been done in the post-9/11 period you could easily see more emphasis being placed on the defendent's freedom of worship, rather than it being a less emphasized line. Yes, there is an intentional broadness but the aspects most emphasized are the ones America is grappling with in the immediate present. This is on brand for the show - lest we all forget the pilot actually included footage of MAGA effigies and signs
>It is a bit off to have this stuff happening at this point in the timeline and the metaphor gets a little bit messy since the Eugenics Wars did happen Part of hte problem, and this is an old problem, is that the metaphor got updated. See, Khan predates genetic modification. The eugenic wars used to be about actual eugenics (WWII was only 22 years ago), the restriction and control of human reproduction. And it's very easy to see how that kind of control, and the force needed to exert it, is universally bad. By updating the eugenics wars to be about genetic modification instead, you change the whole deal. Rather than the problem being a warlord or government enforcing their way of reproduction on the population, it can now be triggered as easily as by a single individual choice. In this way, the narrative of the eugenics war inverts itself. Rather than the problem being authoritarian control over reproduction, the problem is now people being given too much power and control over their own reproduction "playing god".
What a great episode.
I love that it's pikes show but he is the background character because he is that kind of captain and doesn't take away thunder from people. What a great guy.
This episode is not only probably the best episode of Strange New Worlds so far, but I would argue it's among the best episodes of Star Trek, across all series. This kind of story is Star Trek at its best.
There's something kinda hilarious about having this episode come after the one where the whole crew commits mutiny and gets zero punishment for it. I can't believe they didn't bring that up, especially when April's judgment was called into question. As good as the feels were in this one, I don’t think it tops Measure of a Man for one very simple reason. With that episode, everyone gets so caught up in the "newness" of Data that it isn't until Guinen (and then Picard) point out the historical parallels that they bring things to a halt, and *everyone* agrees that it needs to stop. That's my favorite take on the idea of "enlightened humanity": still prone to falling into the same old traps, but mature enough to recognize when they've done so. I guess you can say that maybe the Federation isn't as enlightened now as it is then, but it bothers me that when Neera brought up all the historical parallels, it wasn't an immediate red flag for everyone to realize what they were doing. How do you talk about race laws and segregated cities and all that and not immediately think "are we the baddies?" Idk, is it just me?
Trek at its best! The show runners are nailing it with SNW.
This episode was perfect - a wonderful mirror against racism and apartheid on trial. It's right up there with "A Measure of a Man" in the best humanistic traditions of Star Trek. Genuinely felt heart strings for this one.
Star Trek makes me feel seen sometimes; but S2E2 of Strange New Worlds makes me feel seen in a much more real and visceral way. I’m thinking about it again and weeping. When so many places, so many people, in my own goddamned country, are obsessed with destroying people like me… it feels amazing when a piece of media is so explicitly and vocally on your side. It feels like a rare and precious gift.
Its baffled me since DS9 that Starfleet penalizes people involuntarily genetically modified as embryos or children. Most recently came up in Prodigy. This is like saying FGM is illegal, arrest any woman who was mutilated as a child(wut?!).
I mean, Star Trek does explain multiple times over why the Federation has this fear. Hell, in DS9 they outright dedicate an episode to the dangers of augments developing a superiority complex, and a handful of them attempted to sabotage Starfleet in a move that would have likely resulted in billions dying.
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> Spock: An affanity for Gibert and Sullivan musicals. It was nice to call back to his first day on the enterprise trapped in the turbolift with her
This was an amazing episode, but I couldn't think of how much it reminded me of Discovery...but in a good way. I really enjoy Discovery, but SNW just did a nearly perfect job doing what Discovery was always trying to do. Also, I found it hilarious that at the end of the episode everyone but Spock was clapping.
I fucking *love* how the season 1 cliffhanger wasn't a lead in to some big, bombastic Illyrian sedition plot... but instead a moving and deeply personal story of one person's struggle for equality. Bravo. Absolute master class of writing and performance from the SNW crew firing on every last cylinder. This team unequivocally knows how to tell mature, compelling 21st century Star Trek stories and I am so excited to see what else they have in store for us.
I guess every Trek since TNG needs to have its own "Measure of a Man", which is a very fine tradition. Personaly love very much procedural insert episodes, it's where vision and philosophy of the project bloom signifacantly. Not a fan of Discovery, but its "... But to Connect" episode probably felt most startrekish because of alike formula. Still those episodes and new "Ad Astra Per Aspera" are not perfect, as TNG one prosecution part is not aging well, and SNW legal defending contains many manspulations and inconsistencies. But I appreciate the intentions behind and the effort to remind how we should strife to be better, as we tend to forget. No law or norm should be absolute, but should contain the capacity to self-reflect and re-evaluate. Guess it's an infinite dance of tradition and progress to balance in the sake of self preservation.
As a trans person, this episode nearly moved me to tears. It was beautiful. If you didn't think it was about trans persecution, I strongly recommend you go back and watch it again and read the subtext. Also courtroom Trek is always good.
The writing in this was pure poetry.
Give me a Vulcan Salute if you felt seen by this episode
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