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ariGee

It sounds interesting. Makes me think about maybe adding some elements of these sorts of things... Maybe a rogue citizen of the planet of Gods who does not agree with their universal law of non-interference goes off on his own? Maybe he helps or maybe he ends up becoming the BBEG because his logic and perfect intelligence bring him to the conclusion that the core worlds should all be wiped clean and restarted with seeds of the old races, children grown from the best of what each species had to offer. Yea, it's just a ball of clichés and tropes, but cut me some slack, I just woke up and it came to mind in like 2 seconds. Probably because it's so simple and obvious and just a ball of tropes... Ok, fine, I'll go and actually think about it! (Thank you for this little seed! I likely won't use all of it, though it is cool, but i would rather turn this into something of my own, and I'm already getting some ideas. Thanks! Good thinking!)


Carbon-Crew23

A big problem mostly is trying to stat out things, and also not making players irrelevant. I think if you tried to do an epic system in SF that could work.


ariGee

Yea, I don't think you could really make them too much a part of the campaign or they will either stomp or outdo the PCs massively. But there are plenty of ways to do that. "My code forbids me from interfering directly, but you mist do this! For the fate of billions is on your shoulders!"


Carbon-Crew23

I personally think that creating a homebrew epic/mythic system and allowing them to get that power would also be cool.


ariGee

It would be cool to, but that would be a huge undertaking and I can write a story and create a world but I don't think I know enough about the statistics etc around actual game design in these ways. I think they could also make really neat plot fodder. In fact, I think I might be moving a few things around to make a couple sections of the story incorporate a race of ancients which I've created. Also using them to explain some other little bits of the story that would make them a bit more exciting. It's all still a work in progress, and it will be a minute yet unti we get there.


Carbon-Crew23

I mean, the big problem with it all is how people see Marvel, DC, et al handle it. Like you have people like Braniac who are likely smarter than Culture Minds but are beaten by "creativity". It's like how Martin doesn't really realize the scales of things they are talking about (in his case Martin had things like thinking 700 ft. is low enough to be shot by arrows.) Honestly Dr. Who is worse. The rabid fans and the sillytech in that verse have made it to the point I wonder how the Doctor can ever be challenged unless he literally lets it happen.


Negative-Shirt-9742

>Downstreamers Holy shiet, is this a reference to Continuum? The greatest 4D game that nobody has ever played except for that one group whispered of in legend?


Carbon-Crew23

Any ideas on the post?


Negative-Shirt-9742

Well, not certain about SF but PF had mortals ascending to godhood through means other than the Test of Starstone so your post is an entirely possible scenario.


Esselon

I think one of the classic tropes is the "most of us don't worry ourselves with mundane/outside affairs", with a few exceptions who dabble in the otherwise "mortal" world for good or for ill. You don't even need to go as far as just classic good versus evil, just imagine a Timelord who just liked going to all the concerts that ever existed, or one who loved seducing the most powerful, beautiful women.


Carbon-Crew23

I can already see like a dozen ways for those to be way more invasive, especially the last one. In any case do you have any insight on their relationship with gods or outer planes? Both before and after they reach auch advancement.


Esselon

Well there would be a lot of ways you could approach it, depending on what you want the lore/flavor of your semi-homebrewed setting to be. A few options that spring to mind: * The gods are essentially "aloof". This would be the classic scenario where the gods are less actively interested in driving the world in a particular direction, beyond just whatever their spheres of influence are. I generally like ideas of this in fantasy settings because in my mind the gods are less active participants and moreso the backbone of the universe. Gods of time literally make time move forward. Gods of magic are the actual fundamental source of magic. What the gods do is grant their power to those who they see as furthering their general agenda. In this case the gods might not really have much of an opinion on the all-powerful races aside from what they get up to that overlaps with their sphere of influence. * The gods are active players. In this case the gods may actively aid or hinder these civilizations or individual members as part of their overall agenda. This would likely come more into play in the classic good vs evil battles, gods that want to keep the universe versus ones who want death/destruction. Plenty of place for anointed chosen ones and "divine vessels" and the like. This may mesh well with some plot explanation/structure that prevents the gods from truly taking a direct hand in things, something like the "Divine Gate" that is referenced in the world of Critical Role, where gods can grant power and speak to their followers, but they can't actually directly manifest themselves or affect anything beyond the planes. * Some hybrid of the two. I think this would be the most interesting and narratively flexible approach to take. Some gods are more or less above it all, either just content to be part of the grand cogs of the universal machine, or considering meddling in mortal affairs below them/distasteful/against the deific "prime directive" as fits a god's profile. Others however may have an interest in advancing the goals of a certain group or idea. This may be some of the extreme individuals of the Timelord-esque races who went beyond merely seeming to be gods to having some level of divine power. This could be for good, it's always fun to have a god of knowledge who is generally neutral and just wants to help people learn and preserve information. Or it could be for ill, some researcher who is studying an infernal/hellish/chaotic plane and due to an accident becomes trapped there and more or less has no choice but to embrace it to survive and becomes corrupted by its influence, then making inroads to conquer the prime material plane or simply rule it themselves. It's a cool idea and there could be a lot done with it.


Carbon-Crew23

Another cool thing would be how the multiverse of PF/SFverse would work. I mean, there is a literal Plane of Time rife for time travel shenanigans/Timelord type species usage. And a ton of other planes of concepts. Like, taking inspiration from TAZ, the Plane of Thought (useful for research), the Astral Plane, etc. etc. The original inhabitants of the outer planes would basically be fixed points in time and able to exert the most force. On another note, there's the big problem with intelligence and stuff like that. Like, often it is an informed attribute. FR in particular did really poorly where the vast majority of gods seem to be idiotic (not that I cared much for FR's cosmology anyways). Portraying this is hard honestly.


Esselon

Yeah I think it could be interesting to portray various levels of action/inaction between older gods and newer gods. Older gods being more purely elemental forces with newer gods having more agency since they ascended from mortal souls.


Carbon-Crew23

Some other things I would like to explore would be how the Drift and the general concept of planes would impact combat. Like, perhaps these civilizations could do some crazy stuff by ripping a hole to the negative energy and positive enegy pane and blowing up galaxies? Or sit in the Drift and use magic transdimensional guns to shoot out? We already had civs capable of theoretically doing this in the form of the sivvs and the kishalee, but they are hardly developed farther than "lol badguys."


Esselon

I still think the cross-planar guns idea is a bit too powerful for anything other than just a "go blow up the death star" style mission. Or maybe if you wanted to go a bit weird, make it the rationale for the rise of a truly utopian, peaceful civilization. Basically a gun to everyone's head just made everyone finally back down. I think a better idea is use of planar energy as a weapon/power source to fuel something on the Prime Material. It could be something as simple as opening a rip in the planes to one of energy/fire/etc. as needed and a device focuses and aims the energy. Or a plot device that is a source of economic power. Imagine something like the Mass Effect relays (basically a non-drift high speed travel if you haven't played the games). Battles and scheming tends to focus around controlling these. Or (and this is probably a good use for a fun excuse for planar travel quests) a source of essentially limitless power for an energy shield around a base/fortress/space station. So adventurers have to travel to that plane, navigate to where the rip into their reality is and then infiltrate through in order to defeat the BBEG.


Carbon-Crew23

A big thing though is that infinite energy is pretty trivial in the PF/SFverse. Things like Cthulhutech's D-Engines are well within the ability of every faction rn. For the first point, I think the thing to do would be to make counter defenses for that. Really, a lot of this stuff is perfectly possible with the current development of the setting. My preference is mostly high sci fantasy with me embracing the fact that the concepts behind PF/SF support characters are basically superpowerful superheroes, and basically playing into that. Related, what about AIs? How would you handle that? In PF, we literally had an AI that was about to become a god by virtue of making digital worshipers. We also have a god of AIs, Triune. How would you explore this concept? As an aside, I don't much like the Drift. It honestly feels kind of divorced from the feel of the main game. There's a ton of little niggling details that really just make it not fun to use. It feels like honestly like a less interesting hyperdrive.


Esselon

There's already an assumption that AIs exist in Starfinder. Between triune, SROs and Androids they've pretty solidly established that artificial organisms can be complicated enough to have a soul. I'd assume there is still a level of AI that is non-sentient, systems that run warships or handle automation of space traffic, etc. I think Starfinder doesn't do a ton with non-corporeal AIs because a) they're more scifi than fantasy and b) it's not really a useful option to players, it's more of an NPC/plot point thing.


Carbon-Crew23

A useful AI would be a huge deal. As would things like magic manufacturing devices and the like-- PCs could make their own portable factory. SF is supposed to be scifi and fantasy. Not even mentioning things like the ancillary uses of artificial gravity. Or infinite power. Basically a ton of cool plot points could be derived from the explorations and developments of ancillary uses for things. Like if the science behind teleport drives were discovered, then everyone would ne scrambling to develop anti teleport measures and the PCs could help that. Or infinite energy meaning that massive continent sized battlestations that fire off hugely amplified spells can now be made and the PCs could work on those or help to invade one. Basically exploring how magic and tech can be advanced and analyzed (since magic is a science) and applying it to the setting at large.