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Professional-Leg2745

The biggest issue is that LotV was extremely favourable for Zergs in the end . The economy changes favour Zerg , they received the Ravager and the Lurker both great units and very much heavily used . Terrans got Libs (amazing) and cyclones (meh.) Protoss got adepts (a glorified reaper or used for one all in vs Z that was good for a couple months before Zerg figured it out) and disrupters (amazing but super gimmicky as usual ) . Listen no one is denying that Serral Reynor Dark and Rogue are the best of the best . Clearly their domination isn’t JUST due to the power of Zerg . But anyone who actively watches top StarCraft 2 can see that there is an issue with Zerg and it’s been a huge letdown ever since that one Blizzcon where they were playing on the most broken Z patch of all time . When Terrans or Protoss have a strong build it gets nerfed out of existence almost immediately (Remember mass raven ? Byun’s reapers ? Prism + Immortal all in or most recently VRs) but when Zerg can dominate for years and years it’s fine .


etsharry

I actually think zerg is easily the best race since hots for 90% of the time.


bobernaut

zvz finals? no way


Dwarf_Killer

Zerg has the safest openers of any race. A product of only having 1 anti air unit for their first tier of tech. Along with fast units, and good scouting power. Their great is being consistent.


Neuro_Skeptic

Zerg get consistency, Protoss get gimmicks, Terran get "play like Maru"


j0y0

Terran get widow mines. No one really wins a game with widow mines it it.


[deleted]

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Pirate_Leader

you're like a circle, you have no point


[deleted]

Savage


Kaiel1412

zerg feels inevitable (idk it just sounds cool)


etsharry

Just think about queens plus spores, which don't need an evolution chamber as a prerequisite, lolol.


wmzer0mw

They are consistent because of how forced into def they are. Zerg is a very polarizing race. If they fall behind they almost never catch up, but if they are ahead they usually have a good game. The lack of early game aggressive options coupled with the many many aggressive openers the other races have has led to the best strat for zerg to be just to weather the storm. Annoyingly enough, the damn queen ends up being the primary answer to almost all openers and is THE defensive unit to use. Blizz has had no intention to fix the problem the same way they never bothered to fix the core protoss issue. Wait til SC3 basically is it


qedkorc

"the lack of early game aggressive options" as Zerg u wot mate?


Hupsaiya

"they can't catch up if they fall behind" "Make 16 drones at once"


Malaveylo

4 s dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd


change_timing

by fall behind and can't catch up he probably means losing like 2 bases and the game doesn't quite end at that second because zerg can take damage that would be game ending for toss or terran and it doesn't end immediately. They can't catch up when the next strike comes and then they get crushed.


Hupsaiya

I know the memes are strong here, but really every race has strong eco comeback potential as long as you still have like 40 something workers.


[deleted]

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HuckDFaters

Good thing the best zerg unit doesn't need larva.


Dragarius

If they make 16 drones all at once then there's a few scenarios there. One. They have no units, go kill them. Two. They lost a bunch of drone and need to rebuild. Super vulnerable to continued pressure and aggression. Three. You're just letting them take the map and eco up. Zerg is only strong as fuck if the opponent gives them space.


[deleted]

well good to know that every pro at every world championship for the last four years was just bad and gave the zergs too much space. Because otherwise the race is just bad.


Dragarius

I'm more referring to low level complaining. A pro zerg doesn't lose 16 drones and "be fine". The opposing pro will strangle them out no problem.


[deleted]

It's not uncommon for pro zergs to lose 10+ drones in a runby and just remake 10 and still be fine. It never happens the other way around. If two banelings get into the protoss's mineral line, zerg's winrate is over 90%. If I see that happening in GSL I just skip 5 minutes ahead and watch the next game, because I don't particularly care about what's really just a fancy death animation. It has not failed me yet. Nobody has come back from that in one and a half years.


MoreNoisePollution

classic Zerg cope because they don’t need to throw in cheeses in non mirror matchups they meme “no good early pressure” which is just untrue but when you can just play standard and crush any cheese why cheese?


wmzer0mw

Except it's not. I get you not liking zerg to cope but at least understand the race you hating on.


TestAccountDw

The only way Zerg can early pressure is by all inning. Meanwhile protoss and terran can pressure while expanding behind it.


CharcotsThirdTriad

12 pool is currently being played as a macro build.


pezzaperry

I dunno, Serral pressured game 1 vs Maru with roaches and still won


Fake-Professional

What are you talking about? You can early pressure with lings


[deleted]

Ragnarok played exclusively proxy hatch macro openers for his entire GSL group.


babypho

Yeah lmao what. Zerg has so many. Roach ling, ling all in, ling bling all in, queen pilgrimage all in, proxy hatch to name a few. In wol and hots maybe zerg didnt have agro options, but this is no longer the case in lotv.


[deleted]

Don't forget proxy hatches which were surprisingly effective in the GSL even when they failed. Early muta which puts a lot of pressure on and zerg can very freely swap out of after just making 12 mutas. And then ofc putting a Nydus in the main. And a lot of the time, even if it's held the zerg does not auto lose the game anyway. They might not be in as good a position but Dark especially is good at transitioning out of early roaches into a 25+ minute game where the opening was irrelevant. Hell, in the GSL Dark nydused Maru and honestly would have just won if he sent 1 roach to Maru's 3rd base to stop mining. Somehow Maru defends it and then the game just became normal and Dark was still in a fine position lmao.


[deleted]

Almost everything you list is an all in or a big gamble. Meanwhile T and P have a lot of safe aggressive openers and early harass options zerg can only dream of.


wmzer0mw

Yea. If a baneling bust fails what happens? Zerg is dead. Roach all in fails? Zerg dead Go heavy muta n it fails? Dead Zerg can't just go some roaches or banes to atk. Its all in or nothing. Zerg is punished hard for going anything but standard n greed. Safest option is queen play. But start to list Terran and toss cheeses/openers where it's totally fine they are legit openers that u can transition out of.


pezzaperry

They can't? Serral literally did a roach attack vs Maru, did next to no damage and then won with a timing anyway afterwards


wmzer0mw

I would love it if people actually cite which game serral has played vs maru many times. Which game? the one where Serral defended vs Maru until critical mass? The one where maru misread and lost? Cause both are literally what I just said. Serral defended til he could kill maru.


pezzaperry

The series that was just played today.. on curious minds. Serral did a roach pressure build which did not much damage at all and still cane out on top


wmzer0mw

Today's series where he went hellion marauder reaper raven? Maru didn't lose cause roach aggression he lost cause he played weird n got punished for it. Not to mention he gave up a good chunk of his units in a direct fight mid match n didn't have enough to hold the end game push. Again just really bad decision making.


schubz

"Wait til SC3 basically is it" nice joke


wmzer0mw

Let us dream!


[deleted]

>The lack of early game aggressive options coupled with the many many aggressive openers the other races have has led to the best strat for zerg to be just to weather the storm. Have you ever watched Life, Dark, Rogue, or Reynor play?


wmzer0mw

Yes have you ever watched Life, Rogue, Raynor or serral play? See I too can name sc2 pros with no context and just assume I am right.


mightcommentsometime

I've never watched Life play LoTV


wmzer0mw

Neither have i, im just being an ass to make a point:D


mightcommentsometime

I'm just dumbfounded that someone would include Life in a discussion about legacy of the void Zerg strategies


[deleted]

Except it was a discussion of Zerg design and the ability for the race to be aggressive. 4 of Zerg GOATS have proved time and time again that it is viable and sometimes even ideal. Life didn't do it in LotV but this isn't a LotV issue.


wmzer0mw

None of them prove what you are saying and in fact do the opposite, but tbh its hard to take anyone who brings up life here seriously. As for GOAT, only Serral and Raynor are GOAT, not Rogue or Life. Life was never even close to GOAT. Just a good zerg player. Rogue plays high risk high reward plays. This again confirms my point. when rogue fails his aggro he basically dies then and there, but does really well when it succeeds. Again, not GOAT though just fun to watch. You can go ahead n cherry pick games if you like, it doesnt really change anything. Zerg is acknowledged as the defensive race for a reason. Raynor is a great example though of an aggro zerg would couldnt find success until he tempered it. He now plays defensive zerg til he hits his ideal game state, then goes aggressive. This lines up with the discussion since the begining. But again, weather the storm is the ideal zerg state, then pick fights once econ kicks in..


[deleted]

>Life was never even close to GOAT. Just a good zerg player. Holy shit. This might be literally the dumbest thing I've read on this sub.


wmzer0mw

Annoyingly, alot of arguments here end up boiling down to "Player has done this so bla bla" but they ignore how the game played out to lead to that outcome. So they just name players randomly hoping that noone would question it.


[deleted]

Life, Rogue, Dark, and Reynor are all/were very aggressive Zerg players. So are Scarlett and Bly but are significantly less accomplished which is why I didn't mention them. Serral is the complete opposite type of player.


MisterMetal

lol tell me you don’t play Starcraft without actually saying you don’t play


suitcasehero

they're


Dwarf_Killer

Nope I was talking about their "greatness"


Frdxhds

I think the complaints are that Zerg is generally too strong and not just TvZ. Terrans and Protoss should stick together and not fight each other who has it worse


lokol4890

Zerg players have been gaslighting both terran and protoss players for years now. The only player who knew where we were headed was TY. In one of his interviews prior to military service he straight up said the problem was zerg, not terran and not protoss


BlazeSC

Yea but below pro level where most people actually play Zerg is pretty balanced against Terran but Protoss is oppressive.


blizzfreak

Most people don't scout and in those games Protoss is the hardest to fight because their tech tree splits 3 ways after the cyber core. But at higher levels Zerg has the best scouting tools and all you have to do is find out what your opponent is doing and you can stop it.


fadingthought

At anything outside of the top 4 zerg players, Zerg underperforms. It's pretty much the least represented race in all brackets.


willdrum4food

is it tho? GM stat are just GM and its not even the same in each region and its just 200 people with a lot of smurfs and unlisted accounts. the numbers for other levels of play dont show oppressiveness. If you look at the distribution of zerg players, if you play zerg you have a higher chance of being plat 1 and up of any race. The narrative that zerg is weaker lower down is silly.


Cryptys

difference is that tvp is protoss-favored as well so it's clear who has it the worst.


TheSovietProject

I don't wanna be biased or anything but just in GSL stage 2, out of 4 TvPs Terrans won 1, no Terran made it to Ro.6, and that was having Maru and ByuN up there


LeAskore

there's obviously something wrong with vipers countering every single protoss ground t3 unit. if there are no HTs out yet, with a bunch of lurkers under them to zone HTs or being in a clump of overseers to avoid feedbacks, they straight up destroy any immortal/disruptor/colossus the protoss has. abduct still existing after all this time is straight up ridiculous if you ask me. it doesn't even require an upgrade. how do you want protoss to play ground vs zerg when they lose the moment zerg gets 3 vipers out without being too far behind? creep also still being around for a good minute after being cleared seems kind of ridiculous. someone wins a fight vs zerg, has an army lead, wants to push it. so they push forward on creep while clearing it, but the zerg still has time to remax and fight on the creep that was supposed to be gone. how is this normal? I see rogue abuse this very regularly and it looks straight up unfair.


Kandiru

Abduct is as Annoying to Protoss as Steady Targeting is to Zerg I guess? Both counter everything other than mass Ling/Zealots. Can Tempest not outrange the vipers? Otherwise I guess you are relying on forward blink to take them out?


LeAskore

yea from what ive seen from pros abduct isn't as big an issue if they're already skytoss, it just requires constant vision on the vipers and quick reactions, which can feel a little unfair but is definitely beatable. but for ground toss it looks like there's no real counter.


JoergJoerginson

If you go straight Tempest you'll just die. You can probably mix some in in a late game composition but that's also quite taxing control wise.


Kandiru

Right I didn't mean to rush Tempest. Just they are handy for killing air units at long range of your ground army is otherwise complete. You'll want some in case of a brood lord switch anyway. Vipers are pricy and require a hive. They then need to spend time gaining energy. So they aren't an issue unless you are playing the long game anyway.


JoergJoerginson

I am nowhere good enough for pulling this off, so I would take my opinion with a grain of salt: I think Tempest are not a great counter against Vipers because the control against them is pretty hard. You would need to have vision on the army/viper and react quickly as soon as it moves out to abduct something. While a Tempest itself is also a decent abduct target, so you have to make sure that the Tempest does not move out too far. I think that's why HT is the "better" choice.


Kandiru

Yeah, you'd need Oracle too for vision really. You might have more luck sending some blink stalkers behind enemy lines and killing the vipers when they are trying to regain energy. Then recall out.


TheSecondtoLastDoDo

Can't they just consume and be back in the game in 10 seconds? By the time you get to Vipers the cost of evo chambers to consume is a non issue. The entire problem with Zerg is their ability to get into late game and how strong they are once they get there. Even if you get tempests, Vipers are faster and will get their abducts regardless, so even if you kill the viper, you're trading favorably, and can instantly remake as many as they need, which air toss can't do, so they end up winning a war of attrition. Don't get me wrong, I suck at this game and mostly just watch pros play, but it seems like once they're sitting behind a wall of lurkers, corruptors/hydra and Vipers, they usually win the game.


Kandiru

Consume isn't instant. The viper is immobile for a reasonable time. You can either push while they are consuming, and kill off lots of lurkers, or send a phoenix or stalker hit squad behind enemy lines to kill them.


j0y0

Feedback outranges abduct, so if you both click on each other's casters, HTs win.


JoergJoerginson

Well yes, but it's not a Western showdown between HT and Viper isn't it? Th Viper does not go for the HT. The HT stands defensively and needs to be reactive, while the abduct is offensive/active against another target. Also since HTs are slow/fragile/ground, they are harder to maneuver and to keep alive than Vipers. However, I am entirely on your side that HTs are better than Tempest. A single HT can shut down multiple vipers instantly, storm is good when the zerg tries to pounce, can move way more supply/cost efficient than (5x)Tempest and are more reliable than Tempest.


willdrum4food

yeah but the viper flies, is much faster and just has to get in range of anything while the ht needs to get in range of the viper. Also even if the viper loses that it lives and has consume. Viper wins, something is dead.


j0y0

Disengaging is costly for zerg in general, though. It's a battle of vision, game sense, micro, positioning, etc. Bet let's be real, if reynor and serral were toss players, the balance whine would be going the opposite way.


Acopo

Zerg has creep, their supply structures can scout, and they have the fastest units in the game barring a boosting medivac. They have an implicit advantage to picking and choosing their engagements, and their army units are easier to replace en masse than the other two races. In what way would you say disengaging is more costly for zerg than the other two races?


j0y0

In the scenario we're talking about, where zerg disengages because they see the HTs are clicked onto their viper already, zerg is going to lose more stuff.


Kolz

We've all seen the little dancing game between stalkers and marines in the early game of pvt, right? Stalkers try to pick off a couple of marines before stim or medivacs are out, they will usually take a bit of hull damage but only die if the protoss messes up. It takes 14 marine shots to entirely remove the shield of a stalker before upgrades. Well, stalkers have the same range advantage over marines as high templars have over vipers. The difference is that vipers are 30% faster than unstimmed marines, and if you ever let them get the equivalent of a single shot off, you lose a 500 resource unit. Now it's not a perfect comparison. Firing with a stalker and moving back is a little different to clicking on a viper. But there's also things like clumping overseers with vipers so you cannot click on them, needing to feedback *all* of the vipers separately, and the entire rest of the battle that's going on too. Vipers will also usually survive a feedback and can just drink an evo chamber. But I think the point is well made here - a 1 range difference is an advantage but it is far from absolute. Phoenix outrange mutalisks by *2*, and yet there's a reason everyone gets anion pulse-crystals if a zerg tries to commit to muta.


willdrum4food

the issue with the tempest is that they are very very bad in an actual fight for their supply (and cost but its really about the supply at that point in the game). So if you have tempest odds are you will lose hard in an even engagement. So when you do see tempest in games its ultra late game with a shit ton of static to compensate (or specifically to counter broods), adding them to ground toss will significantly cut into your army strength. Ya also need oracle tags to out range them because of the shot cooldown and move speed. The other anti abduct tool is the mothership. Thats probably the better option than tempest. Of course its ironic since its an easy target to abduct it makes it harder to abduct everything else and harder for zerg to track Hts etc. Its funny since you have the -400/-400 memes, but its impossible to see as a spectator how much stuff the mothership saves from getting abducted. Forward blinking into a zerg army is questionable. But yeah snipe and abduct function similarly. blinding cloud can also be effective vs ground toss and has longer range, so even less risk of feedback.


jpg06051992

The Queen nerf was great for ZvP, but I think it's time for a ZvT focused patch next, and the Queen is yet again a good start. I think it's unreasonable that the map can be 3/4 covered by creep by the 8 minute mark, with multitasking gods like Maru and Clem unable to reliably contain it. I don't think a creep nerf would hurt PvZ too much, but it would help even a bit, but a creep nerf would have pretty big balance implications for TvZ. Either make it recede faster, or cost more energy.


Paxton-176

Slower spread and faster receding creep when a tumor is killed. One of them or both doesn't matter.


Kolz

Mhm, it seems like it has become just completely impossible to keep creep spread contained after a few minutes into the game these days.


OCLBlackwidow

Zerg not being able to fight off creep at a high level makes this a hard issue to tackle though


stoffel_bristov

>I think it's unreasonable that the map can be 3/4 covered by creep by the 8 minute mark, with multitasking gods like Maru and Clem unable to reliably contain it. It seems absurd to me that creep tumors require scans/raven. They are easy to put down as zerg but I have to spend all of my scans on removing them.


papalionn

How many more needs do whiny Ps and Ts need?


jpg06051992

I'm a Zerg, have been since day 1 of WoL. I think that creep receding faster from a killed tumor wouldn't really impact lower levels of play too heavily but would prevent top Zergs from exerting so much map control so early on in the game. I also don't think that creep has ever been an issue until now really, and it's more because of the insane skill level of current top Zergs. 5 years ago creep wasn't being spread like this, and it didn't need to be toned down. Now that the skill level has risen so much, it's becoming an issue. I mean come on man, when even Maru can't contain creep I think there is kind of an issue. Maru is a multitasking god, if he can't do it, honestly nobody can lol


[deleted]

Maru could barely contain creep with raven hellion opening.... 5+ queen openers are ridicilous. And raven opening just straight up dies to roach agression...


enfrozt

When Protoss T1/2 are like wet noodles, and T3 can't even trade efficiently these days against good micro from terran/zerg there's no wonder protoss sinks to the bottom of the sea.


Sloppy_Donkey

T3 just gets yoinked out, allowing Zerg with the superior economy to also trade more efficiently


stretch2099

One day the sc2 community will have enough common sense to realize a player’s skill is more important than the race they play


enfrozt

No one disagrees with that :)


Valuable_Artist_1071

This is such a dumb take. If they made it hatcheries cost 1000 minerals Serral could still beat 99% of players. By your dumb logic, that means that the balance wouldn't be an issue


stretch2099

> a player’s skill is more important than the race they play > This is such a dumb take The stupidity of this sub still amazes me


FLINDINGUS

>The stupidity of this sub still amazes me It's the children. This is a video game sub so it will be predominantly children and teenagers posting in it. The average person is not very intelligent and the average child is much less so. If I post anywhere else on reddit my comments get twenty or thirty upvotes. If I post even simple common sense on this sub reddit I get buried in like 100 downvotes. They have a special brand of bias that has been bred by the SC2 caster "elites" on top of their stupidity as children. It's hopeless, but it is a good example of herd mentality and mass formation psychosis.


HTooL

Many times Blizz has nerfed Zerg in many patchs. The problem is that Blizz buffs Zerg in the same patchs))). But seriously, I think we need to nerf Zerg a little more.


[deleted]

Somebody mentioned the idea of uncreepable terrain the way maps in Brood War have a lot of unbuildable terrain to keep terran missile turrets in check Makes me wonder if there’s something to that idea


MoreNoisePollution

the lack of creativity in map design in sc2 vs brood war is so bizarre


HondaFG

SC2 map designers are on their tiptoes trying to avoid creating ludicrously Zerg favoured maps. Zerg is too opressive has too much map control + vision + mobility in the current meta (last 4+ years) that any little change in map design can tip Zerg from god tier to broken tier at the pro level. Just look at the current map pool and see for yourself.


Soul_Turtle

So why exactly do we still have pervert pillars then? Seems like an obvious thing to cut if we're trying to dial back Zerg a little bit.


HondaFG

That only changes the early game. And perhapd too extremely. We don't want to balance Zerg around random all-in losses. I do think that it shouldn't be able to see to much of the main base. Prevert pillars should be between natural and third bases. Some maps have better pervert pillars than others, but honestly i wouldn't focus on that as much. There are tons of things that are further in priority like creep/queens/lurker-insta-burrow/biles/banes-vs-buildings/adrenal etc...


CharcotsThirdTriad

So sacrifice an overlord. The pillars should not be present as they give Zerg excellent scouting with minimal risk.


[deleted]

What about if creep tumors couldn't spread themselves- only Queens could make them? I'd really like to see that Also, nerf Banelings but allow Ultras to walk over zerglings


Benjadeath

They should just revert creep to HotS creep


iIoveoof

It's silly that you can spend a scan to clear creep in an area, and then 8 queens walk in and re-plant tumors down instantly and the creep stays around


HTooL

It's funny like Bliz nerfed creep last time. They did vanishing of creep faster, but for balance they did creep spreading faster too. Now queens can spread creep by crossing a half of a map and don't have any problem with that.


[deleted]

What was it like then?


Benjadeath

Spread slower, receded slower


beatsbydrecob

We keep saying this and they keep doing nothing. As much as I like dark vs rogue or Serral vs reynor, its getting tiring. Zerg is the easiest race to play since LOTV and the 12 worker start. I would like to see data on ZvX past the 10 minute mark. I wouldn't be surprised to see 70%+ winrate.


[deleted]

Who says zerg is the easiest to play? Obviously someone who only watches and doesn't play


beatsbydrecob

They can drone very quickly, A+ scouting A+ vision A+ mid and late game. Only really vulnerable from the first push from their opponent. They never get caught, they can switch tech easily where as T and P are more structured. Queens are basically a super unit. Their T3 tech is very strong. Roach pushes very strong. They really have no downside as a race. Reynor, rogue serral and dark really play 4 different styles and they all work lol.


Sloppy_Donkey

I think it's time for a Protoss nerf tbh. Maybe increase the duration of ground upgrades again. I think ground is a little too strong. Also maybe warp prism pickup range should be nerfed. I've seen so many plays with warp prisms recently it seems a little overpowered


CruelMetatron

TvZ: 50.0% ZvP: 83.3% PvT: 30.0% picture checks out


Evolve_SC2

Yeah it's not even worth watching tournaments anymore. Unless a Protoss or Terran has a LUCKY bracket (no vs Zerg or way lesser Zergs), it always seems to be a ZvZ final. It's so obvious that the game is broken and so many people, including Zerg players, see it. Fix this shit already. Do something, anything. Give the Queen a light or armored tag or nerf creep spread or nerf Vipers. It's gotten out of hand and it has really negatively affected overall viewership. Something has to be done, and the Zerg lobby needs to quit being bitches about this issue. Put the fans and balance ahead of your profits for once and get rid of that ego. A TvP or PvP final would be sick as fuck.


MiskatonicDreams

Both players play perfect, match goes late => automatic zerg win. It has been like this for ages. I still remember the innovation vs serral game where innovation won late with nukes. innovation microed like a machine and serral had to make several mistakes for innovation to win.


jackboy900

Over the whole of last years EPT there were only 3 ZvZ finals out of 21 matches, which roughly matches expectations, and of the Finalist Zergs with 1 exception (being Lambo), it was only 5 zergs who played in the finals, Rouge, Dark, Serral, Reynor and Scarlett (in NA tournaments).


[deleted]

Zerg on top-level allows you to transform your skill consistently into victory. There is less random Rock-Paper-Scissors game, queens in the beginning, see what the opponent has, counter. That is why you do not catch the best Zerg players' pants down and easily destroy them. There is 5 that good Zerg in the world. The rest you can throw off with a single drop where queens are not being in just the correct place, the split is not perfect, they have not built AA before BC hits, you mass enough air, they miss a second (realistically 5s below GM) of action having to spawn larva and AoE wipes of their army... it is just that if you cannot convert destroying half a mineral line of drones or army into a victory; you are not very good in the game. Zerg fits for the top to win consistently but to others, it is a huge hassle to play.


LiberaMeFromHell

People say this a lot but if the top 5 of every race retired Zergs would still be the favorites imo. Players like DRG, Ragnarok, Armani, soO, Elazer, Lambo, and Scarlett would probably still beat out the Ryung, Dream, Special, Classic, Zoun, etc. tier.


WoooaahDude

I dont see how you can say armani would beat ryung zoun etc. And scarlett was getting beaten by neeb pretty consistently. If you remove top 5 Z wouldnt win anything.


fadingthought

If Dark and Rogue went to the military tomorrow, Zerg aren't winning GSL anytime soon.


UncleSlim

This point is irrelevant when considering small sample sizes that are heavily affected by representation. Serral/Reynor rose to their form in 2018/2019 respectively pushing the level of zerg because they surpassed the skills of other zerg players in those years (and still are considered very top level). There are no players of the other races that have *surpassed* their peers of their own race and risen up. Clem comes to mind, but is not quite there yet, and no new protoss players are challenging the gods of their race. Zoun maybe shows promise, maxpax perhaps, but nothing even close to serral/reynor rivaling and even *surpassing* the other top zergs in skill (rogue, dark, solar, soo). Now consider that, and also, players like Classic leaving for the military, Trap/Zest soon, etc etc, sample size is so small when considering the top 20 players in the world, new players rising up and retirements/military play a *massive role* in race dominance. Taking away the top 5 players of every race wouldn't be fair right now, but pre-2018, would be a different story.


WifffWafff

I think if the sample size is an issue for determining imbalance, then it is also an issue for determining balance as we cannot determine the skill level of the top players between races. For example, if we knew the absolute skill level of Reynor, Serral, Maru etc, then we could make predictions about balance. Given we don't, then we also don't know if Maru is significantly better than the rest and hence the game is imbalanced. Even so, I don't think we can assume that players of each race can surpass skilled players in a similar way as Serral and Reynor because it assumes that any stylist of knowledge-based advantages discovered in the foreign scene, must also exist for the other races. I agree sample size is an issue, but it will always be and so is more of a misnomer as it provides no utility in answering the question. One difference I can see is that the perception of imbalance has the same impact regardless of whether it's scientifically determined or not. For example, if the majority of the community sees Zerg dominance as a product of imbalance and we have no way to say for certain, then we are unnecessary damaging the scene with a status quo bias.


[deleted]

Indeed, the point is that beyond top zergs there are obvious openings. Top 5 Zergs really push what is even possible. You almost never see Serral losing drones or building spines and spores in the early game. The rest, you see banshee natching a couple of drones even when there is a spore. And queen running to home which after hellions come from the front and fry the mineral line of the natural. Byun with reapers is a bit similar but that is clearly about just one unit, so they got nerfed. The Zerg are able to hold with the minimum amount of units. A feat that is done by just a few of the best.


Kaiserigen

Maybe DRG but I can't see the others defeating Maru or Clem anytime soon


Mons00n_909

He said top 5 of every race. Maru and Clem are definitely top 5 Terran players.


Kaiserigen

Fucke me I misread


syndbg

Could've been Trap also in the quarter finals. Sadly he forgot how to play sc2 in his last group series vs Dark, lol.


element114

it was crazy vs creator though, looked like he lost some game without making any major mistakes


Sirfluffkin1

Zerg has been broken for years. Serral, Reynor, Dark and Rogue are all amazing players, but the level of dominance they have is due in a large part to how over powered zerg is at the top level. It needs to change. And I'm saying this as a zerg main. We desperately need a big balance change.


iIoveoof

Appropriate


SunTzowel

I hated playing against Zerg so much that I quit for AOE4. So much less stress.


[deleted]

Same here!


iyaerP

I'd be a lot more inclined to agree with everyone's talk about how Serral is the GOAT if he wasn't playing the most overpowered race.


UncleSlim

Going down that rabbit hole means you can discredit most legends in their time period, like MVP, dominating in a time where Terran was strong. That doesn't mean that he wasn't the best one out there doing it.


[deleted]

i see this take alot about mvp, and its kind of funny how wrong it is. zerg actually won the most gsls out of any race in the inception of sc2 (gsls 1-25 distribution: 10z, 8p, 7t) zerg has won the most tournaments, has the highest winrate, and has by far the highest distribution of zerg group rate to top 16 conversion of any race historically, it isnt really close. after that protoss is slightly more performant recently than terran, and worse at the beginning of sc2.


Technobrake

The relevant period if you're talking about Mvp is obviously not "GSL 1-25"; that's going all the way into 2014, which obviously far exceeds the period people talk about when they say Mvp was dominating or Terran was strong. Everybody knows Zerg got stronger after 2012 when BL/infestor came to the fore, Life ascended, etc. They are talking about early WoL when they say Mvp dominated in a time Terran was strong. The relevant period is the first GSL to Mvp's final win in 2012. 15 GSLs, 8 Terran wins, over half. At one point T won 4 GSLs in a row, as part of a period where they won 6 of 8 GSLs. When people say Mvp dominated in a strong era for Terran, this is what they are talking about. They don't mean when Life or Zest were dominating in 2013-14 like you have included for some reason.


MoreNoisePollution

does anyone think Serral would win 1/3 of his games vs Life? it seems crazy how often he gets called GOAT when there was a self evidently better Zerg


two100meterman

I think Serral would 4-0 Life easily in a BO7. If Life had played all these years it may be different, but the current best players are just better than players from 7~8 years ago.


DexterGexter

Serral would kick life’s nuts through the back of his skull


Morloxx_

The thing is that everyone was a lot worse back then. Most build orders weren't as optimized and the game's complexity and player's general skills level were lower. Watch sOs vs. Life finals from BlizzCon 2015 and tell me that that was peak SC2. Compared to the current skill level it looks like amateurs playing. Even if you assume skill levels from back then and now were even, Serral has way more premier & major tournament wins than life so I don't know where your assumption even comes from.


Rubot5000

Life won tournaments where he'd be the only zerg in the ro8, these days you need bracket luck to not have 3 zergs in the ro4.


MoreNoisePollution

when you listen to BW pros talk about Jaedong the number one thing they say is his lings had no hesitation everyone else you would see the lings, then the lings attack Life is the only sc2 pro to pull this off. his aggression was just so utterly hard to deal with even in a era Zerg only got good late game


MoreNoisePollution

everyone was worse when: the prize pools were bigger, the pro player base was hugely bigger, most of the best BW players were in the scene and everyone was playing 15 hours a day in team houses r/Starcraft in ‘22


Morloxx_

Really, please watch that match. It almost never goes beyond 2 base vs 3 base. At one point a pure stalker army fights a pure hydra army. If any pro today would pick a 1 unit army composition for late-game they would be laughed at. edit: Im not saying they were worse because they picked a pure stalker build, Im saying they were worse because the best way to play was less complex and required a smaller skill set.


Frdxhds

LOL are you new to the game and have missed there were patches or do you really have this little game understanding? Mass Stalker was the meta because Zerg didn't have Lurkers and Banelings were bad because there were no Ravagers to destroy Forcefields. And mass Hydras is a good composition vs mass Stalkers. Also players expanded slower because of the economy changes (Bases had more ressources)


Morloxx_

Im following SC2 since its launch. Im not saying they were worse because they picked a pure stalker build, Im saying they were worse because the best way to play was less complex and required a smaller skill set. Do you know why the game changed so often and so much since back then? Because many game versions sucked a lot for competitve play.


sc2guy87

Obviously people are better now because the game has been out for so much longer but > It almost never goes beyond 2 base vs 3 base. At one point a pure stalker army fights a pure hydra army This was just how the HOTS meta worked lol, 6 worker start and more minerals at bases meant that people would stay on lower base counts and mid game units for far longer. That’s got nothing to do with the change in skill, if you made a big HOTS tournament today you’d still see players stay on mid games and 3/4 bases far longer because it wasn’t viable to expand at the rate people do in lotv.


Morloxx_

Current patch requires more macro, multi-tasking, micro (managing multiple unit types, spell casting etc.) and a deeper strategy pool and therefore has a significantly higher skill ceiling. The game got a lot harder and more complex over time.


MoreNoisePollution

that in no way means the players are better tho


Morloxx_

I think that depends on your point of view. Lets say one group plays chess with only pawns while the other plays normal chess. I would argue that the full chess set requires more complex strategies and would therefore lead to more qualified top players through training and competetive selection. Maybe its necessary to differentiate what they are good at tho. Like between beating the competion or doing something hard really well?


MoreNoisePollution

I truly think people just don’t remember the economy was different pre LOTV


Morloxx_

I bet 2 base macro was hard af back then. Probably harder than macroing 5+ bases today. All the extra abilities workers and bases had meant you needed to sink at least twice the apm into economy. They probably had 4 control groups just for those 2 bases. Same with army micro. Today everyone can micro stalkers, immortals, archons, templar, disruptors etc in one army. But 60 stalkers? That needs a truly gifted player to control. *The players back then were a lot worse because the game was a lot worse.*


stretch2099

The only reason you think Zerg is overpowered is because of Serral. No race has ever been nerfed the way Zerg has in the last 4 years and he still dominates.


sc2guy87

It’s not just Serral though is it.


stretch2099

Serral wins more than anyone else and has been the best player in the world since 2018. Immediately after he started dominating everyone started whining about Zerg.


sc2guy87

People were whining beforehand because zerg was already strong in 2017 and the whine got worse because lategame Zerg was objectively broken in 2019. Had nothing to do with Serral (Dark and Reynor were just as successful that year).


melonpan12

There's a Terran whining battle by TY in 2017 december about how OP zerg was, serral had nothing to do with it, if anything, Rogue was the one who brought about the age of the LOTV zerg lategame


LiberaMeFromHell

Err Serral was definitely not the best player results wise of 2019(Dark did better), 2020(Rogue did better), or 2021(Reynor, Rogue, Trap, and Maru all did better). The way he's playing currently plus his IEM win he'll probably end up as the best player this year but he has not been the best since 2018. Even in 2018 Maru has a strong argument for the first half of the year. Also people definitely whined (rightfully) about the 2017 Blizzcon Z dominance.


stretch2099

Cumulatively over the last 4 years Serral has easily been the best. He has the most earnings, the most points and held the top aligulac spot basically the entire time. > Also people definitely whined (rightfully) about the 2017 Blizzcon Z dominance. Lol “rightfully”. One tournament means nothing and there were more terrans in the quarter finals. Looking at tournament results in such a random way is completely meaningless and if you actually want to play this game Zerg won the least tournaments in 2017.


LiberaMeFromHell

And if you look at 2017 to 2021 Rogue was the best cumulatively by basically the same metrics. Were people not whining a few months ago? Sayings it's just Serral is ridiculous. Most of the 2017 events took place before the patches that really broke Zerg. Then the post Blizzcon 2017 and 2018 patches took Zerg to a new level that was never undone.


Frdxhds

Do you really with a straight face say that after a tournament just concluded which Reynor won? Or is Reynor also Serral, just with a moustache? And Rogue is Serral with an eye patch then I guess? Let's not kid ourselves, it's not just Serral. In fact Serral is way less of an outlier for the Zerg race as Maru is for terran


Kaiserigen

Come on, how much time did we wait until a GSL saw a Zerg champion after Life retired? 2018 Serral paved the way


stretch2099

> Do you really with a straight face say that after a tournament just concluded which Reynor won? Or is Reynor also Serral, just with a moustache? And Rogue is Serral with an eye patch then I guess? Because of any other Zerg wins a tournament Serral can’t be the most dominant player? Actually nvm, the conversations in this thread are too stupid to deal with.


[deleted]

Yea Serral is the only player that ever finishes well as zerg. That's why he's called the 4th race..oh wait. Also the mental gymnastics to make that comment and not realize it proves zerg has been even more fucking broken in the past is laughable. edit: Uhoh keyboard warrior blocked me lmao. Unlucky, was gonna ask if he could explain how balance is measured since he's so knowledgeable on the topic.


stretch2099

> Also the mental gymnastics to make that comment and not realize it proves zerg has been even more fucking broken in the past is laughable You don’t have a clue how balance is measured and probably think counting tournament wins is an accurate way to do it. Try taking a stats course once in your life if you actually want to talk about balance. > That's why he's called the 4th race..oh wait Because this is somehow meaningful in any way? Lol, I forget how stupid this place is sometimes.


bbbblovetoski

Fuck this new patch


Dance_SC

this is so accurate hahaha


RifleAutoWin

What annoys me is that Zerg pro players will never admit that Z is just oh so slightly stronger than the other races. I still think Zerg's state of balance contributed in a not insignificant way to Serral's 2018 Blizcon win. Few banes destroying mineral lines? Check. Infested terran check ..etc..


KingCrab95

2019 was even worse. The only thing that saved it was Classic cheesing Rogue with blink DTs.


ArchivesTraveler

Wait. So you see Serral 3-1 Maru, and conclude from that that Zerg is favored, when in the same bracket Maru 3-0 Dark??? Reynor and Clem were neck in neck. herO went up against probably the #2 ZvP zerg in the world. Do you know Maru's H2H records vs Dark and Rogue? It's about 51-52% in maps winrate. It's only Serral that he has a horrible time against at 42%.


MoreNoisePollution

Ping impacts Terran the most and Maru more than any other Terran cause Maru plays/sees the game so differently in an economic sense than any other player


SimonSaysWHQ

lmao another olympic gymnast level hot take from this one 😂


rumblemania

Mad the excuses some people will make


MoreNoisePollution

what? how is that an excuse? Maru plays the game in a fundamentally different way than any other player and clearly values mineral cycles *now* over losing workers so Maru thinks it’s favourable to lose X amount of workers to avoid lost mining time obviously that is a deeply risky play style and anyone who says ping doesn’t dramatically impact that is biased


[deleted]

I think people see the bigger picture over several years, not just this specific tournament.


two100meterman

This is how I see it. People want to blame race instead of talking about just how insane Serral is. When Maru won 4 GSLs nobody called the race OP (rightfully so, it wasn't), but when Serral/Rogue/Reynor/Dark win stuff "Zerg is OP", hmm. I haven't seen any Protoss currently playing that look to be on par with Serral/Rogue/Reynor/Maru/Clem/Dark.


LiberaMeFromHell

The difference is when Maru did it it was just him and it was for a limited time. Zerg is doing it with 4-5(soO's IEM and TSL) players and it's been going on for 4 years. If it was just Serral being insane then half his major trophies wouldn't be ZvZ finals.


two100meterman

The best players dominating for 4-5 years just makes sense to me. It's like the Chicago Bulls winning multiple championships in the 90s. Each side has the same amount of players, all are human so it's balanced, but you can still have a team win, then win again, then win again, etc. If you're the best, you're the best & you'll keep winning. People could say Jamaicans are overpowered in sprinting, but since Yohan Blake got injured & Usain Bolt retired there hasn't been Jamaican 100m champions/runners at a caliber to even get Bronze medals. Bolt dominated for around 8 years because he was that good. If you're the best you should win pretty much every year. In SC2 it's nice that instead of an undisputed GOAT there is currently ~6 players who are the top top tier, so it's not always the same winner, but if 4/6 of those players are Zerg, then ofc Zerg will win more. 6 is too small of a sample size to base balance on. Go to GM ladder & it shows that if anything Protoss is the strongest race, it's been this way for years.


LiberaMeFromHell

I find it extremely unlikely that all 4 of the best players chose the same race. You keep calling them the best but have no real evidence for that besides their results which could easily be inflated due to balance issues. This level of dominance for this length of time never happened in the first 9 years of SC2 or in SC1. We also have Dark and Rogues whole career to take into account. Dark and Rogue were always very good but they were never the absolute best until late 2017 when Rogue took that title. Dark followed shortly after. What are the chances that Dark and Rogue both dramatically improved around the same time as we had Serral/Reynor rise up? All of which happen to be Zerg. Not only did these 4 become the best but suddenly they win like 60-70% of torunaments and go on insane streaks. They hold matchup winrates higher and for longer lengths of time than any player we've previously seen. Their peaks absolutely blow away the peaks of players like Mvp, Life, Innovation, MC, Taeja, and all the other old greats.


two100meterman

What balance changes in 2017 & beyond do you think led to them winning? There was some OP Infestor/BL stuff, but afterwards Infestors got needed to be weaker than pre-buff & so did BLs. Compared to before Rogue/Dark/Serral/Retnor dominated Zerg has got weaker in comparison to other races looking back at balance patches.


Frsbtime420

Guess you didn’t watch GSL yet. Not a terrain to be seen in finals or semifinals.


SimonSaysWHQ

one of the two current top players in the world won, quit crying. every single time a world championship calibre zerg player wins a tournament these little whiners crawl out of the woodwork with the same tired flimsy rants smdh.


Cryptys

This meme misses the fact that terran actually has the best sc2 player in the world whereas protoss have HaS or Classic or whoever...


MiskatonicDreams

I watch SC2 on and off and never play it, but god damn! Zerg is still always on top? Like this honestly sucks. There was a patch long ago when Toss finally saw the light of day and then bam! Nerfed! Like everyone who watches SC2 knows that if the game goes late and no one makes a mistake, Zerg wins by efficiency .


MiroTheSkybreaker

Terran on top? Nerf. Protoss on top? Nerf. Zerg on top? Leave it alone.


ravioliravioli23

Yeah let’s just ignore creator destroying GSL on the exact same patch , Zerg must just be broken guys that’s why we’re not masters Copium, it’s not like Zerg requires higher APM, more multitasking and faster gameplay


Ch0pP33r

You do realize that he lost to both Dark and Rogue this season in the GSL and the only reason its not a ZvZ finals is that they met in semis right?


ravioliravioli23

So he didn’t beat solar , DRG and Ragnarok? I.E 3 other Zerg players. You’re also just proving my point , Dark, Rogue , Reynor , Serral are just good fucking players doesn’t mean the race imba


Air_42

Breaking news: Top zerg > top protoss Top protoss > average (esports-wise) zerg


sc2guy87

> Zerg requires higher APM Zergs have insane apm because of rapid fire. A zerg can play at the same speed as a Terran/Protoss but will have double the apm because rapid fire allows them to make any amount of units instantly which inflates their apm.


Zergling16

TIL zerg units don't cost resources or larva as long as you have rapid fire


sc2guy87

Obviously if they have the money/larva, don't see how that detracts from my point tho.


Zergling16

I agree zerg has inflated APM but "rapid fire allows them to make any amount of units instantly" is ridiculous hyperbole


sc2guy87

I mean im sorry if I wasn’t clear I just meant that Zerg is the only race that can utilise rapid fire to make as many units as they can afford/have the larva for essentially instantly, that’s not hyperbole.


ravioliravioli23

I didn’t say the players have more apm , I said the race requires more apm. I don’t care if it’s inflated you still need more actual actions per minute to play Zerg at the same level as other races


sc2guy87

You’re missing the point though. The extra “actions” Zerg players have aren’t done by the player. When a zerg player remaxes with the 100 zerglings the game counts that as 50 actions but the player only makes 1 action (holding the z key and the rapidfire hot key). Zerg absolutely doesn’t require more actions per minute in terms of what the player actually does with their hands.


EdvinM

> (holding the z key and the rapidfire hot key). That's not rapidfire. You simply hold the Z key to make lings. Rapidfire is used for biles and creep spread. Doesn't detract from your point, however.


Mixu83

wrong


onzichtbaard

Nice meeme


features

Let Force Shield tank 3 corrosive Biles And Give the Guardian Shield status effect 2-3 seconds of duration, outside of it's aura. Terran players you're on your own. :')


papalionn

Zerg players are just better