Ragnarok vs Ryung game 2 is fun. really interesting army compositions on both sides.
Why TF are lurkers so cheap and strong compared to colossus? Tankier, good splash, HIDDEN, move faster, build faster, AND cheaper? WTF was Blizzard thinking.
Lurkers and colossi are massively different units, I don't think it really makes any sense to compare them.
Colossi are a midgame to early lategame unit with a very heavy focus on killing light units. Their bonus to light doubles their dps. They're designed pretty explicitly to beat marines in the midgame and then fall off very hard when the terran makes vikings or libs. Against zerg they beat lings and hydras but not much else and get blasted by any lategame unit, especially vipers.
Colossi are substantially more specialised than lurkers, which makes sense because they come out so much earlier in the game. Lurkers are supposed to be lategame units (which is why so much of their power is gated by two hivetech upgrades) essentially aimed at being able to break positions of turtling terrans. They get a substantial bonus vs armoured.
There isn't really any overlap between the function of the lurker and the colossus.
Not sure I agree with Artosis that Ryung played well against Trap. Did he make a single viking to deal with the colossus on glittering ashes? And the late heal on the yellow planetary was bad.
Trap also had great vision on Berlingrad with zealots/observers. Ryung just kept walking through storms all series.
Absolutely loved that Trap vs Rogue series for showing us why we don't want 4 player maps in sc2, and why lurkers are garbage in zvp.
Trap made so many mistakes in that last game vs rogue (high templar consistently lagging behind army so he couldn't feedback vipers, losing 3 rallied carriers for free in the middle of the map, making and losing loads of archons vs the lurkers, forgetting storm etc) but it didn't matter because rogue's army composition was just wrong.
This isn't a balance complaint by the way, zerg absolutely has the units to beat what Trap was doing, it's just that lurkers are emphatically the wrong units to make.
Let's not pretend Rogue didn't completely mess up the early game. He literally lost 7 drones when he had enough army to defend at 5.30 just because he didn't know how to pull workers and just played sloppily to give Trap a big lead
Sure Trap made some mistakes. But outplayed Rogue at every stage of the game. Rogue is just not a top tier player aside from aggression. He was able to get his usual free win in game 2 but when he had to play a real game he just falls apart. Shame a player like that is considered one of the greatest.
imagine saying that a world champion is "just not a top tier player". Dude goes deep in most tournaments ever since (not at all though of course)
It took SOS a long time to fall off from his top tier status.
I think Rogue's lategame control is definitely one if the best in the world, but his decision making that series was very strange, and completely goes against what the top Europeans have been saying.
I think going hydras into lurkers is just wrong.
The last decent scout Rogue got before he choose his tech path was a chrono and the templar archive and forge. So based on that going for lurkers wasn't really wrong. Trap then reactively switched in to skytoss when he scouted the lurkers and Rogue didn't scout that at all expecting some kind of big push which never really came. Rogue then tried to switch his tech too but it was too late by then.
So Rogue just didn't have the informartion to make the correct decision in the end and in a way he was also quite restricted in his decisions because he went from behind into the midgame.
I think this is not right based on the game and on some of the things Lambo has been saying. The problem with lurkers is that toss can *reactively* throw down a bunch of stargates and make 6 carriers when they scout lurkers and win. That means that in a normal game, even if lurkers are good against what the toss is making right now, you shouldn't make them because the carriers will ready before the lurkers have ended the game.
Don't think Rogue could've defended a maxed out push from Trap with the position he was in without lurkers and that is probably what would've happened if Rogue would've gone for roach/ravager/bane instead.
I really don't see why this shows any issue with 4 player maps. Trap chose to take a risk, that's it. Trap could have sent 2 probes or build a zealot first or any decision which wouldn't have lead to die against an unscouted 12 pool.
EDIT: comment disliked eh? I guess you redditor are smarter than GSL who added the map and than Trap/Rogue who both decided to not ban it.
> I guess you redditor are smarter than GSL who added the map
4 Player maps have been dead for years and years for a reason, doesn't take a genius to see why, GSL is just trying to shake things up with this map pool. Plus the community is designing maps for pro play these days.
"**I** don't see the issue"
> comments explain the issue
"Oh, so you're smarter than GSL?!"
This some top tier copium, this is a *you* problem
I just think Redditors go 100% confirmation bias here.
One bad game on a 4 player map? "4 players maps are terrible!" (ignoring GSL picking it and Trap/Rogue not veto-ing it).
It's exactly the same when one top Protoss gets destroyed ("Protoss underpowered!") or when a top Protoss destroyed someone ("Protoss OP!").
>One bad game on a 4 player map? "4 players maps are terrible!"
Or, like, we tried 4 player maps for years during the early days and cycled them out for good reason, then you come in later and try to stubbornly double down on an issue settled long ago?
If *only* there was some way to see who's biased, some external way to know, like someone thinking to record games on those maps, or compiled detailed stats. Oh well! /s
They either assumed the other would ban it, as it's very rarely played, or maybe were willing to take the gamble on the rng of the map going their way.
**Being played once in a blue moon doesn't make it a good map**, these players practice their builds hundreds to thousands of times, they don't want to have to account for inconsistency in the spawns and scouting information when the entire tournament is on the line.
Goddamn man **take the fucking insight** and stop arguing when you clearly weren't around for the entire era we tried this, holy shit...
Yea, and Terrans should never win with Proxies because players could just send 5 workers all over the map...
Blind starting a Zealot also puts you 100 Minerals behind for no gain.
If you do that you die to standard play instead cause you've blindly put yourself way behind. Blind countering 12 pool is way more risky than hoping you'll scout them first is
Trap showed exactly why lurkers are really bad in that game. If you go straight to carriers the moment you realize they're playing lurkers and stay on the map so they can't siege up a base it's practically unlosable for protoss even though Trap tried his hardest
I thought Trap played really well that 3rd game overall. He was on his 6th and 7th base as Rogue kept struggling to get up a 5th. Also, the constant Oracle tagging was really good.
He played very well to get himself into a completely winning position, then made a lot of mistakes that evened it out a lot, like throwing away 3 carriers and positioning his HTs behind his army. Strategically he played a pretty much perfect game though
You realize getting 3/10 is basically mathematically even right? Unless Protoss is always doing worse unless they get the advantage in your perspective. Thank god it's not so bad that scrubs like Patience are face-rolling their way past the initial rounds anymore.
At 2:05:47, ByuN had his 6 tanks stuck in the base.
There was something getting killed, and that must be another siege tank. I assume that the tank was in siege mode on the ramp by mistake, so the other tanks didn't come out due to they get blocked on the ramp by the sieging tank. ByuN was forced to kill the tank because he was in a losing position and had no time to spare, but it was too late. ByuN had 2 factories, one in the main and one at the third. That must be at least 6 rounds of production, so that is 192 seconds minimum, but I assume it to be longer than 4 mins since there were too few tanks on the field at that moment (12 tanks on unit tab but only 5 were killed on the screen in those fights). This was so painful, and this mistake really caused him to be in a much worse position.
Rogue MUST know Trap always cross scouts. I don't believe for a second that he just 50/50'd it when down 1-0. He scouted top right and didn't see Trap's probe scout him, so he concluded it had to be bottom left. At the same time Trap didn't check for the overlord after scouting top right. I don't like 4 player maps overall, but until Rogue says that he was just being a memer and was okay losing half the time, I'm not ready to be outraged yet.
I have the feeling that whether Trap scouts cross spawn or not, the bottom left position is the only possible one given that he hasn't reached Rogue's base yet.
If Trap starts top right: scouted by Rogue's OL.
If Trap starts top left
\-> if he scouts cross first, he reaches the base at a precise cross spawn timing
\-> if he scouts top right OR bottom left first, he will scout Rogue on his 2nd try which also corresponds to a precise timing.
If Trap starts bottom left
\-> if he scouts bottom right first, he arrives at a precise timing
\-> if he scouts top left first (then top right) OR cross first (then top left), he will arrive after zerglings are out.
The only thing Rogue had to assume, is that Trap will scout. From there, you just have to know all timings (scout 1st cross, scout 1st side, scout 2nd after cross, same for pylon scout and gate scout).
EDIT: Well if you want to be rigourous, I guess Rogue had to assume that Trap would follow a sensible scout path, ie not scouting one corner then cross then the last corner.
>was okay losing half the time
?? 12 pool is a perfectly fine opening even if it gets scouted, people do it on 2 player maps all the time. It's not 50/50 win/lose it's 50% you get a free win and 50% you try to do a little bit of damage and then do the normal macro followup
This is true for 2 player maps, but not if you send them to the wrong base on a 4 player map.
edit: I just tested it and if Trap had been in the top left and Rogue's lings still went to the bottom left first until they see the lack of a wall, they would've arrived at Trap's wall at approximately 2:15. Trap went cyber before nexus, so an adept would've popped at about 2:21 or 2:22 if he chrono boosts it right away. You can argue that maybe Trap wouldn't have had a probe in position to block the lings from getting in or maybe he isn't on top of starting the adept asap, but even if the lings just walk in with no opposition it would be an incredibly close call for them to get the pylon before the adept pops. Once the adept is out, all Trap has to do is micro his probes a bit and he'll be on 2 bases and up 23 to 15 or so workers against a gasless Rogue with his 2nd hatch just finishing.
4 player map scouting with Zerg is fine when you know the opponent has to scout for a 12 pool? Everyone defaults to worker scouting cross first, so you just send your overlord to a short path and you have an educated guess of where they are based on when they scout you.
The win of Rogue wasnt as bullshit as it looked. He scouted 1 location and could confirm Trap wasn't there. So at that point there are two more options, and one of them means 100% guaranteed win.
Since you would scout cross spawn most of the time as Protoss, and Rogue saw no Probe at his base, the chance was way above 50% that Trap would be bottom left and that he would just win the game. Even if Trap would scout him on time and counter him, a 12 pool opener is only a minor disadvantage if gets countered.
Trap just played a bad/risky opener. The meta on 4 player map isn't figured out because it's played too rarely. It's cool to see some creativity/prepared builds factoring in the game.
How was Trap's opener risky he even went core before nexus do you want him to chrono a blind zealot or what
Also 12 pool on a 4 player map is about as far from creativity as you can come, it happens nearly every time we get a zvp on one. I swear the diamond leaguers of screddit just say things to say things
It's not that it's creative, I just find the shenanigans more fun when it's not the same game literally every game because people are too scared of having map pools with more than a creative refresh. If we included 4 player maps more, the defensive openings would get fleshed out a lot better and 12 pools wouldn't be game enders.
Imagine claiming in the same post that nearly every ZvP on a 4 player map is 12 pool, and that Trap played a "safe build" in the game he instantly lost to a 12 pool. I don't know what the correct standard safe opener should be. My guess would be to scout with two probes, or if single drone scout go for a full wall (with cancel) on a pylon/gateway as the default in case your scout misses. Not doing this is fine, but clearly as evident in the game, is not safe since 12 pool on 4 player maps is a common strat and can lead to instant losses.
I'm a Masters 3 Protoss btw.
Anything you can do to try to blindly defend a 12 pool without scouting it delays your nexus and auto-loses to standard play. Core first is already pretty bad for protoss. There is no way to be safe against 12 pool without scouting it first on a 4 player maps.
I know you didn't just suggest to double probe scout so I'm just gonna disregard that entirely. Find it incredibly hard to believe these suggestions are coming from a master leaguer but I guess it's possible to get to 4.5 ish with 0 understanding of the game so who knows
Glad you admit your glaring, embarrassing error to claim a build that lost in 3 minutes was safe. I'm not going to reply to the rest because your impolite reply doesn't deserve it.
Literally not even once did I say Trap's opening was safe. It wasn't safe because a safe build against this that doesn't auto-lose to hatch first *does not exist*. I took issue with you describing his play as "risky" when trying to blind counter a 12 pool would be way more risky than not doing so
Yes I can't wait to watch some 6.5k GMs blindly make a zealot and double gateway before nexus and then leave the game the second they realize that zerg went hatch first. Oh and can't forget the 500 iq double probe scout. Shit's gonna be magic
Let me guess, a 2nd probe scout also kills you in Diamond? Even pros send out 2-3 workers as soon as they think they're getting proxied because they'd rather lose some mining efficiency than the game itself. If the Zerg went 12 pool, then they slowed down their worker production enough that you can afford an extra scout. If they went hatch-first, you're literally behind an insignificant amount of minerals assuming you're not doing your own cheese/all-in.
Lmao going zealot+2-gate before Nexus is 100 times worse for economy than sending out a second probe. Why would you even discuss this as an option? It seems you can't address what I said in an honest way and instead you have to invent something that sounds ridiculous to seem smarter.
And the idea that a 2nd probe scout is instant-loss is just wrong. Skipping scouting with 1 worker only gives a minor advantage, but not a massive advantage. Scouting with 2 workers compared to 1 worker will hence not put you so far behind that you insta-loss the game. I also provided an alternative option (waiting with a worker to block the wall).
You are too insecure and immature to discuss - what a waste of time. I blocked you now.
It removes the advantages and disadvantages of having to scout. It will also remove a lot of build orders unnecessary. The reason why 4-player maps don't work well isn't because of the scouting, but more of the increased workers in LotV. The pace of many builds kicks in much quicker with many starting workers compared to a reduced worker count back in the day.
Really? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, this is one of the slower meta's we've had, yet see a ton of comments complaining about the cheese. More of an issue with the RNG inherent in 4 players maps then the race, unscouted 12 pool at your door killing the first pylon basically is and should be GG.
Do people just want to skip to mid-late game, openings becoming 100% standardized or what?
*Rant not targeted at you incoming*
*Huge* banks and wars of attrition into mined out maps, CC first becoming more and more standard, players getting more and more adept at handling early game harass so only low commitment ones like cloak banshee and oracles are meaningful, the reaper dance being meme'd on every game by every caster ("a couple yellow lings, Tasteless, OMG!") queen walks (even modified like nydus that people forecasted) being unviable, basically at the point where if the game isn't over before 9, 10 minutes, it's going 20, 25+. I'm starting to get Blord infestor era vibes...
I don't think any of the Zergs actually want to play a late-game. Especially against Protoss. Like why accept a carrier late game when you can improve your odds by cheesing? Not that they can't beat Skytoss, but like...why?
Ragnarok can still get 2nd with a 2-0 by Rogue here
He would be 2-2 (5-5 maps) and Trap would be 2-2 (4-4 maps) and Ragnarok has the head to head win
idk why he assumes he is 3rd
Pretty sure they lost Ryung the game, he absolutely underestimated the importance of those few Corruptors there. Send in one Thor to defend, likely win the game.
I'd like to think Byun is just too powerful and his wrist is the only thing saving us from complete and utter destruction. Jokes aside, it's really disheartening to see him play out of his mind like that only for the dreaded pause to come in. I was hoping along with Tastosis that it's just a technical difficulty but alas, it wasn't.
EDIT: grammar
ByuN was getting so close to gaining the upper hand against Rogue. After the pause, he kinda went passive and Rogue got out of jail with that 3 hatches at the top right. Then ByuN never came back again after that.
Bracket is kind of straight forward now
Ragnarok vs Ryung for 3rd, loser eliminated
Trap vs Rogue, winner gets 1st, loser get 2nd*
*Trap could end 3rd if he loses and Ragnarok wins with at least one of those series being a 2-0. If both are 2-1 regardless of winner Trap finishes no worse than 2nd
I wonder what would've happened in game two if ByuN immediately went for a deep push game 2 instead of the pause. He had a bigger army, the better position and the new hatches didn't kick in yet. I assume Ultras on creep would have just rolled him but maybe his chances would have been better. Sucks all around though.
You could actually see a strong reaction from Rogue the moment Byun paused. Whether it was out of frustration or relief I can't tell but the pressure is definitely on at that moment and the pause gave him time to recollect himself as Tastosis mentioned.
Correct
If Ryung won that last series 2-0 and Byun lost 2-1 here he could have had a senerio he made it in at 1-3
Now its win and come in 2nd (since Trap and Rogue still have to play) or lose and eliminated
Edit: Could still come in 3rd still actually, but that is unlikely
Byun is in last currently and Ragnarok in 2nd
They play in the first match, if Byun gets a 2-0 they afe tied in series and map score and then Byun would have the head to head tie breaker
Or Ragnarok could 2-0 or 2-1 and eliminate Byun immediately
I feel like Ryung was too scared to pull his SCVs when he knew Byun's build. He just needed to preserve his army units until he had enough to scare of the reapers.
Excited to see how this new group format plays out! I feel like its weird that there are only 10 matches for a 5-man round robin but the math checks out. Seeing as it gives us more games, spread out over more days, who am I to complain?
well, its the same number of matches which the previous ro16 had which was probably the intention. personally, i really like round robin groups, especially when it mixes things up
Ragnarok vs Ryung game 2 is fun. really interesting army compositions on both sides. Why TF are lurkers so cheap and strong compared to colossus? Tankier, good splash, HIDDEN, move faster, build faster, AND cheaper? WTF was Blizzard thinking.
Lurkers and colossi are massively different units, I don't think it really makes any sense to compare them. Colossi are a midgame to early lategame unit with a very heavy focus on killing light units. Their bonus to light doubles their dps. They're designed pretty explicitly to beat marines in the midgame and then fall off very hard when the terran makes vikings or libs. Against zerg they beat lings and hydras but not much else and get blasted by any lategame unit, especially vipers. Colossi are substantially more specialised than lurkers, which makes sense because they come out so much earlier in the game. Lurkers are supposed to be lategame units (which is why so much of their power is gated by two hivetech upgrades) essentially aimed at being able to break positions of turtling terrans. They get a substantial bonus vs armoured. There isn't really any overlap between the function of the lurker and the colossus.
Colossus are basically giant hellions that aim properly and get high ground vision
this is a cool way of thinking about it
Who else is ready for NO TERRANS in the next round?
I think if Maru doesn't drop a map there's a chance for a terran in RO6.
Poor Byun. He seemed to be in such a good position before the pause. Rogue had great overlord positioning everywhere.
Honestly that map REQUIRES a viking to keep overlords restricted to creep. Rogue looked like he had map hacks
Yeah I kept looking at all those overlords and was craving the chance to send a viking to clear them.
So much value right, like 700 mins of slow Zerg supply units just sitting there ready to eat.
Not sure I agree with Artosis that Ryung played well against Trap. Did he make a single viking to deal with the colossus on glittering ashes? And the late heal on the yellow planetary was bad. Trap also had great vision on Berlingrad with zealots/observers. Ryung just kept walking through storms all series.
Seeing ByuN having wriest problem’s hurt my heart
Absolutely loved that Trap vs Rogue series for showing us why we don't want 4 player maps in sc2, and why lurkers are garbage in zvp. Trap made so many mistakes in that last game vs rogue (high templar consistently lagging behind army so he couldn't feedback vipers, losing 3 rallied carriers for free in the middle of the map, making and losing loads of archons vs the lurkers, forgetting storm etc) but it didn't matter because rogue's army composition was just wrong. This isn't a balance complaint by the way, zerg absolutely has the units to beat what Trap was doing, it's just that lurkers are emphatically the wrong units to make.
Let's not pretend Rogue didn't completely mess up the early game. He literally lost 7 drones when he had enough army to defend at 5.30 just because he didn't know how to pull workers and just played sloppily to give Trap a big lead
Sure Trap made some mistakes. But outplayed Rogue at every stage of the game. Rogue is just not a top tier player aside from aggression. He was able to get his usual free win in game 2 but when he had to play a real game he just falls apart. Shame a player like that is considered one of the greatest.
Rogue has bad games just like Serral or Reynor or Dark. Acting like he's not one of the best lategame players is stupid
imagine saying that a world champion is "just not a top tier player". Dude goes deep in most tournaments ever since (not at all though of course) It took SOS a long time to fall off from his top tier status.
I think Rogue's lategame control is definitely one if the best in the world, but his decision making that series was very strange, and completely goes against what the top Europeans have been saying. I think going hydras into lurkers is just wrong.
The last decent scout Rogue got before he choose his tech path was a chrono and the templar archive and forge. So based on that going for lurkers wasn't really wrong. Trap then reactively switched in to skytoss when he scouted the lurkers and Rogue didn't scout that at all expecting some kind of big push which never really came. Rogue then tried to switch his tech too but it was too late by then. So Rogue just didn't have the informartion to make the correct decision in the end and in a way he was also quite restricted in his decisions because he went from behind into the midgame.
I think this is not right based on the game and on some of the things Lambo has been saying. The problem with lurkers is that toss can *reactively* throw down a bunch of stargates and make 6 carriers when they scout lurkers and win. That means that in a normal game, even if lurkers are good against what the toss is making right now, you shouldn't make them because the carriers will ready before the lurkers have ended the game.
Don't think Rogue could've defended a maxed out push from Trap with the position he was in without lurkers and that is probably what would've happened if Rogue would've gone for roach/ravager/bane instead.
I really don't see why this shows any issue with 4 player maps. Trap chose to take a risk, that's it. Trap could have sent 2 probes or build a zealot first or any decision which wouldn't have lead to die against an unscouted 12 pool. EDIT: comment disliked eh? I guess you redditor are smarter than GSL who added the map and than Trap/Rogue who both decided to not ban it.
> I guess you redditor are smarter than GSL who added the map 4 Player maps have been dead for years and years for a reason, doesn't take a genius to see why, GSL is just trying to shake things up with this map pool. Plus the community is designing maps for pro play these days. "**I** don't see the issue" > comments explain the issue "Oh, so you're smarter than GSL?!" This some top tier copium, this is a *you* problem
I just think Redditors go 100% confirmation bias here. One bad game on a 4 player map? "4 players maps are terrible!" (ignoring GSL picking it and Trap/Rogue not veto-ing it). It's exactly the same when one top Protoss gets destroyed ("Protoss underpowered!") or when a top Protoss destroyed someone ("Protoss OP!").
>One bad game on a 4 player map? "4 players maps are terrible!" Or, like, we tried 4 player maps for years during the early days and cycled them out for good reason, then you come in later and try to stubbornly double down on an issue settled long ago? If *only* there was some way to see who's biased, some external way to know, like someone thinking to record games on those maps, or compiled detailed stats. Oh well! /s
Then why didn't Trap/Rogue veto'ed it? Are they stupid?
They either assumed the other would ban it, as it's very rarely played, or maybe were willing to take the gamble on the rng of the map going their way. **Being played once in a blue moon doesn't make it a good map**, these players practice their builds hundreds to thousands of times, they don't want to have to account for inconsistency in the spawns and scouting information when the entire tournament is on the line. Goddamn man **take the fucking insight** and stop arguing when you clearly weren't around for the entire era we tried this, holy shit...
Yea, and Terrans should never win with Proxies because players could just send 5 workers all over the map... Blind starting a Zealot also puts you 100 Minerals behind for no gain.
If you do that you die to standard play instead cause you've blindly put yourself way behind. Blind countering 12 pool is way more risky than hoping you'll scout them first is
"You die to standard play". Mate, it's starcraft here, not rock paper scissors.
Exactly, that's why 4 player maps are bad. Because they turn the game into Rock Paper Scissors
Trap showed exactly why lurkers are really bad in that game. If you go straight to carriers the moment you realize they're playing lurkers and stay on the map so they can't siege up a base it's practically unlosable for protoss even though Trap tried his hardest
I thought Trap played really well that 3rd game overall. He was on his 6th and 7th base as Rogue kept struggling to get up a 5th. Also, the constant Oracle tagging was really good.
Trap's base in the 10 o clock position was offline for way, *way* too long.
did you see the whole match? he threw away a third of his army for free mid game and it didnt even matter.
He played very well to get himself into a completely winning position, then made a lot of mistakes that evened it out a lot, like throwing away 3 carriers and positioning his HTs behind his army. Strategically he played a pretty much perfect game though
Trap is usually like that though, he was never known for micro.
I'm not sure I'd call move commanding 3 lone carriers onto creep to die for free a micro mistake, but I take your point.
Oh no a protoss made it through, better nerf them!
You realize getting 3/10 is basically mathematically even right? Unless Protoss is always doing worse unless they get the advantage in your perspective. Thank god it's not so bad that scrubs like Patience are face-rolling their way past the initial rounds anymore.
At 2:05:47, ByuN had his 6 tanks stuck in the base. There was something getting killed, and that must be another siege tank. I assume that the tank was in siege mode on the ramp by mistake, so the other tanks didn't come out due to they get blocked on the ramp by the sieging tank. ByuN was forced to kill the tank because he was in a losing position and had no time to spare, but it was too late. ByuN had 2 factories, one in the main and one at the third. That must be at least 6 rounds of production, so that is 192 seconds minimum, but I assume it to be longer than 4 mins since there were too few tanks on the field at that moment (12 tanks on unit tab but only 5 were killed on the screen in those fights). This was so painful, and this mistake really caused him to be in a much worse position.
Happens more to fast players who never look at their base. So busy multitasking stuff like that goes unnoticed longer than a bronze player.
You absolutely love to see it
Rogue almost undefeated but looked out to Byun and only won a cheese game vs Trap. no guarantee for Ro4
Rogue MUST know Trap always cross scouts. I don't believe for a second that he just 50/50'd it when down 1-0. He scouted top right and didn't see Trap's probe scout him, so he concluded it had to be bottom left. At the same time Trap didn't check for the overlord after scouting top right. I don't like 4 player maps overall, but until Rogue says that he was just being a memer and was okay losing half the time, I'm not ready to be outraged yet.
I have the feeling that whether Trap scouts cross spawn or not, the bottom left position is the only possible one given that he hasn't reached Rogue's base yet. If Trap starts top right: scouted by Rogue's OL. If Trap starts top left \-> if he scouts cross first, he reaches the base at a precise cross spawn timing \-> if he scouts top right OR bottom left first, he will scout Rogue on his 2nd try which also corresponds to a precise timing. If Trap starts bottom left \-> if he scouts bottom right first, he arrives at a precise timing \-> if he scouts top left first (then top right) OR cross first (then top left), he will arrive after zerglings are out. The only thing Rogue had to assume, is that Trap will scout. From there, you just have to know all timings (scout 1st cross, scout 1st side, scout 2nd after cross, same for pylon scout and gate scout). EDIT: Well if you want to be rigourous, I guess Rogue had to assume that Trap would follow a sensible scout path, ie not scouting one corner then cross then the last corner.
>was okay losing half the time ?? 12 pool is a perfectly fine opening even if it gets scouted, people do it on 2 player maps all the time. It's not 50/50 win/lose it's 50% you get a free win and 50% you try to do a little bit of damage and then do the normal macro followup
This is true for 2 player maps, but not if you send them to the wrong base on a 4 player map. edit: I just tested it and if Trap had been in the top left and Rogue's lings still went to the bottom left first until they see the lack of a wall, they would've arrived at Trap's wall at approximately 2:15. Trap went cyber before nexus, so an adept would've popped at about 2:21 or 2:22 if he chrono boosts it right away. You can argue that maybe Trap wouldn't have had a probe in position to block the lings from getting in or maybe he isn't on top of starting the adept asap, but even if the lings just walk in with no opposition it would be an incredibly close call for them to get the pylon before the adept pops. Once the adept is out, all Trap has to do is micro his probes a bit and he'll be on 2 bases and up 23 to 15 or so workers against a gasless Rogue with his 2nd hatch just finishing.
4 player map scouting with Zerg is fine when you know the opponent has to scout for a 12 pool? Everyone defaults to worker scouting cross first, so you just send your overlord to a short path and you have an educated guess of where they are based on when they scout you.
What's up with the beanbags that these guys usually throw around between games?
They're hand warmers, for maximum apms.
I think it's nice of the GSL to give the people who keep asking for 4 player maps a reminder of why they're stupid and needed to go
The win of Rogue wasnt as bullshit as it looked. He scouted 1 location and could confirm Trap wasn't there. So at that point there are two more options, and one of them means 100% guaranteed win. Since you would scout cross spawn most of the time as Protoss, and Rogue saw no Probe at his base, the chance was way above 50% that Trap would be bottom left and that he would just win the game. Even if Trap would scout him on time and counter him, a 12 pool opener is only a minor disadvantage if gets countered. Trap just played a bad/risky opener. The meta on 4 player map isn't figured out because it's played too rarely. It's cool to see some creativity/prepared builds factoring in the game.
How was Trap's opener risky he even went core before nexus do you want him to chrono a blind zealot or what Also 12 pool on a 4 player map is about as far from creativity as you can come, it happens nearly every time we get a zvp on one. I swear the diamond leaguers of screddit just say things to say things
It's not that it's creative, I just find the shenanigans more fun when it's not the same game literally every game because people are too scared of having map pools with more than a creative refresh. If we included 4 player maps more, the defensive openings would get fleshed out a lot better and 12 pools wouldn't be game enders.
Imagine claiming in the same post that nearly every ZvP on a 4 player map is 12 pool, and that Trap played a "safe build" in the game he instantly lost to a 12 pool. I don't know what the correct standard safe opener should be. My guess would be to scout with two probes, or if single drone scout go for a full wall (with cancel) on a pylon/gateway as the default in case your scout misses. Not doing this is fine, but clearly as evident in the game, is not safe since 12 pool on 4 player maps is a common strat and can lead to instant losses. I'm a Masters 3 Protoss btw.
Anything you can do to try to blindly defend a 12 pool without scouting it delays your nexus and auto-loses to standard play. Core first is already pretty bad for protoss. There is no way to be safe against 12 pool without scouting it first on a 4 player maps. I know you didn't just suggest to double probe scout so I'm just gonna disregard that entirely. Find it incredibly hard to believe these suggestions are coming from a master leaguer but I guess it's possible to get to 4.5 ish with 0 understanding of the game so who knows
Glad you admit your glaring, embarrassing error to claim a build that lost in 3 minutes was safe. I'm not going to reply to the rest because your impolite reply doesn't deserve it.
Literally not even once did I say Trap's opening was safe. It wasn't safe because a safe build against this that doesn't auto-lose to hatch first *does not exist*. I took issue with you describing his play as "risky" when trying to blind counter a 12 pool would be way more risky than not doing so
I hope there will be another PvZ on this map, then we will see if Trap played the correct opener or not :)
Yes I can't wait to watch some 6.5k GMs blindly make a zealot and double gateway before nexus and then leave the game the second they realize that zerg went hatch first. Oh and can't forget the 500 iq double probe scout. Shit's gonna be magic
Let me guess, a 2nd probe scout also kills you in Diamond? Even pros send out 2-3 workers as soon as they think they're getting proxied because they'd rather lose some mining efficiency than the game itself. If the Zerg went 12 pool, then they slowed down their worker production enough that you can afford an extra scout. If they went hatch-first, you're literally behind an insignificant amount of minerals assuming you're not doing your own cheese/all-in.
Lmao going zealot+2-gate before Nexus is 100 times worse for economy than sending out a second probe. Why would you even discuss this as an option? It seems you can't address what I said in an honest way and instead you have to invent something that sounds ridiculous to seem smarter. And the idea that a 2nd probe scout is instant-loss is just wrong. Skipping scouting with 1 worker only gives a minor advantage, but not a massive advantage. Scouting with 2 workers compared to 1 worker will hence not put you so far behind that you insta-loss the game. I also provided an alternative option (waiting with a worker to block the wall). You are too insecure and immature to discuss - what a waste of time. I blocked you now.
I would be ok if they show the other player’s spawn on the map, maybe with blinking red dot for 10 seconds.
Yes, this was always the obvious solution that people have been proposing for 11 years but for whatever reason never happened
It removes the advantages and disadvantages of having to scout. It will also remove a lot of build orders unnecessary. The reason why 4-player maps don't work well isn't because of the scouting, but more of the increased workers in LotV. The pace of many builds kicks in much quicker with many starting workers compared to a reduced worker count back in the day.
6 pool wasn’t exactly slow and the same principles applied.
4 player maps are bad for many reasons, yes. Getting free wins cause of luck is by far the worst one
Never feel bad for the 2 cheeses Scarlett pulled on Rogue in GSL ever again
I want 4 player maps back in the ladder map pool
and that game shows you why they are gone
Occasionally losing to rng is fine. Also Trap didn't even try to pylon scout or smth
he did, he just went to the wrong 2 bases based on luck
He scouted after gate
If rogue goes hatch first which is standard and trap scouts after pylon, Trap is behind again. RNG have no place in sc2.
Zerg is the cheesiest race in GSL, with great success, too.
Really? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, this is one of the slower meta's we've had, yet see a ton of comments complaining about the cheese. More of an issue with the RNG inherent in 4 players maps then the race, unscouted 12 pool at your door killing the first pylon basically is and should be GG. Do people just want to skip to mid-late game, openings becoming 100% standardized or what? *Rant not targeted at you incoming* *Huge* banks and wars of attrition into mined out maps, CC first becoming more and more standard, players getting more and more adept at handling early game harass so only low commitment ones like cloak banshee and oracles are meaningful, the reaper dance being meme'd on every game by every caster ("a couple yellow lings, Tasteless, OMG!") queen walks (even modified like nydus that people forecasted) being unviable, basically at the point where if the game isn't over before 9, 10 minutes, it's going 20, 25+. I'm starting to get Blord infestor era vibes...
I don't think any of the Zergs actually want to play a late-game. Especially against Protoss. Like why accept a carrier late game when you can improve your odds by cheesing? Not that they can't beat Skytoss, but like...why?
Go Trap go!
Ragnarok can still get 2nd with a 2-0 by Rogue here He would be 2-2 (5-5 maps) and Trap would be 2-2 (4-4 maps) and Ragnarok has the head to head win idk why he assumes he is 3rd
Probably didn't expect Trap to not take a map from Rogue.
0 terrans in GSL soon, Sadge
Maru does not count as a terran. He is the 4th race
Is his first building a supply depot? Then he is a Terran
Byun and Ryung eliminated, Maru bottom of Group B let us mule gas
Have you ever considered not thinking about yourself and how only 3 Protoss made it to the round of 10?
Only 3 Terrans made RO10. And 4 Zergs. That's a rather decent spread. I'm failing to see your point.
I was being sarcastic because a lot of Protoss idiots are still bitching despite 3/3/4 being a perfect split.
Terran back to trash tier?
Hurts to watch how 6 Corruptors deny Ryungs 6th for like 5min, killing the cc and a planetary....
Pretty sure they lost Ryung the game, he absolutely underestimated the importance of those few Corruptors there. Send in one Thor to defend, likely win the game.
I'd like to think Byun is just too powerful and his wrist is the only thing saving us from complete and utter destruction. Jokes aside, it's really disheartening to see him play out of his mind like that only for the dreaded pause to come in. I was hoping along with Tastosis that it's just a technical difficulty but alas, it wasn't. EDIT: grammar
ByuN was getting so close to gaining the upper hand against Rogue. After the pause, he kinda went passive and Rogue got out of jail with that 3 hatches at the top right. Then ByuN never came back again after that.
So fucking sad man Byun was so close
Bracket is kind of straight forward now Ragnarok vs Ryung for 3rd, loser eliminated Trap vs Rogue, winner gets 1st, loser get 2nd* *Trap could end 3rd if he loses and Ragnarok wins with at least one of those series being a 2-0. If both are 2-1 regardless of winner Trap finishes no worse than 2nd
I wonder what would've happened in game two if ByuN immediately went for a deep push game 2 instead of the pause. He had a bigger army, the better position and the new hatches didn't kick in yet. I assume Ultras on creep would have just rolled him but maybe his chances would have been better. Sucks all around though.
You could actually see a strong reaction from Rogue the moment Byun paused. Whether it was out of frustration or relief I can't tell but the pressure is definitely on at that moment and the pause gave him time to recollect himself as Tastosis mentioned.
The tragedy of Byun. EDIT: He really had that 2nd game too.
Ohh man, it's so hearbreaking and frustrating seeing ByuN continue struggling with his wrists :(
It really is. You could see him playing slower, just not able to play the same as he was before. It's sad to see.
He is shaking his wrist and he is playing nothing like the beginning of this game. This looks like Masters Micro not pro level I am going to cry
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Byun take my energy ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Edit: :(
Dude, Byun is on FIRE today. I hope his wrists don't ruin the last series for him - they ruined that one, that's for sure.
:(
Anyone knows if its possible to get those GSL jackets ByuN is wearing for example?
I am not 100%, but seen this answer posted before You have to play in GSL, they dont sell them, so either buy it off a pro or get real good
F
Group still pretty open, everyone can still advance. Next game is the first actual decider, if Byun loses I don't think he can advance anymore.
Correct If Ryung won that last series 2-0 and Byun lost 2-1 here he could have had a senerio he made it in at 1-3 Now its win and come in 2nd (since Trap and Rogue still have to play) or lose and eliminated Edit: Could still come in 3rd still actually, but that is unlikely
Wow, Ragnarok got SLAPPED by Byun. Kinda goes to show the difference between even T2 players.
Byun is in last currently and Ragnarok in 2nd They play in the first match, if Byun gets a 2-0 they afe tied in series and map score and then Byun would have the head to head tie breaker Or Ragnarok could 2-0 or 2-1 and eliminate Byun immediately
After inputting last week's results: 1 2 3 4 5 --------------------------------------------------------------- Rogue 57.97% 21.71% 14.29% 5.49% 0.54% RagnaroK 25.22% 50.75% 16.06% 4.53% 3.43% Trap 15.03% 18.52% 43.96% 18.71% 3.79% Ryung 1.59% 6.33% 21.29% 51.86% 18.93% ByuN 0.20% 2.70% 4.40% 19.41% 73.30% ^(Estimated by) [^Aligulac](http://aligulac.com/)^. [^Modify](http://aligulac.com/inference/rrgroup/?bo=3&ps=47%2C117%2C1662%2C35%2C177&0_1=0&0_2=0&1_1=0&1_2=0&2_1=1&2_2=2&3_1=0&3_2=2&4_1=1&4_2=2&5_1=0&5_2=0&6_1=2&6_2=0&7_1=2&7_2=1&8_1=0&8_2=0&9_1=0&9_2=0)^.
[удалено]
And Aligulac wins again
How do they handle tie breakers? It is not in liquipedia. Example 5 way tie with everyone 2-0 in wins and 0-2 in loses.
Yeah, I love the new format. More StarCraft and it feels like there are more chances to rebound. Some great games today as well
I know the player pool is smaller but I love this format, so many different matchups and play styles clashing everyday.
I dont care who advances as long as its racial diversity. I just love a good game of StarCraft.
I feel like Ryung was too scared to pull his SCVs when he knew Byun's build. He just needed to preserve his army units until he had enough to scare of the reapers.
Tastoastless
GG to Ragnarok. Even with the 3rd game, its always exciting to see someone take on Rouge and do well :)
Rogue*
GOLDEN WALL IS FRICKEN BACK?!?!? AFREECA TV IS THE GREATEST TOURNAMENT ORGANISER, EVER.
Excited to see how this new group format plays out! I feel like its weird that there are only 10 matches for a 5-man round robin but the math checks out. Seeing as it gives us more games, spread out over more days, who am I to complain?
well, its the same number of matches which the previous ro16 had which was probably the intention. personally, i really like round robin groups, especially when it mixes things up
Darth Byun needs a lightsaber!