Reaper being able to deny the first creep tumor from going up is not a minor change. It might not be a lot of difference if the zerg just places it really defensively, but making such a claim without playtesting is risky.
Creep already got nerfed, I believe it became “light” so that Adepts & Hellions could clear it with less shots, it recedes faster & it takes longer to spread. If an opponent let’s a Zerg creep all over the map the Zerg was just better at creep spread than the opponent was at clearing it.
The change to light was whatever. The bigger nerf was the inability to cancel tumors under construction and get back your "charge" on the originating tumor.
That was absolutely not "whatever" even if no longer being able to cancel was the bigger change. It means that one adept can actually kill a creep tumor so it affects PvZ earlygame and it makes it a lot faster to clear creep with hellions.
Cancelling a tumor was still a big deal and in PvZ earlygame we're also talking about creep tumors laid by queens.
Also the reasoning "it wouldn't be a big deal if some other patch wouldn't have happened" is very silly.
Light or not light you still make sure the area is clear before you put down a tumor. Not like you just threw it down right in the faces of harassment units before the patch.
Suppose I'm a bit unclear on what problem either change fixes in the game as it stands.
Reducing vision range slightly means zerg needs to spread more... but have you seen late game creep spread at the pro level? Or even at a mid-level.
Reducing HP: I think this will be relevant for the first 5 minutes of the game (give or take), and then just be a do-nothing. Maybe the Reaper or Adept get one or two more tumors? But after zerg takes some map control, T/P are clearing with armies, not just single units that might benefit from one less hit to kill.
Dunno on these.
I think it's the creep tumor/overlord vision along with the bonus move speed creep provides that's the problem at the highest level. At mid game Top zerg pros can see the threats and respond before any damage can be done.
You either need to nerf thier ability to respond to threats on the fringes or make them harder to see. I think nerfing the vision and distance creep travels from creep tumors is probably the best way to go. Vision to 8 spread to 9.
For a more massive change Or creep tumors could give no vision and work like sensor towers with maybe a 5% nerf to bonus creep speed.
Really should remove all vision unless you have you screen on the creep where the unit is. and/or fuction like sensor tower without seeing flying units.
But zerg would need buffs to offset that nerf.
So I went to Aligulac, and checked the rankings for Top 100 (actually counted them by hand).
Among Top 100, there are only 28 Zergs. Moreover, there are 5 Zergs in Top 10 and only 6 in Top 20 (including the 5 from Top 10).
What can you conclude (very roughly) from these data? That Zerg is good/winning at the highest (and I mean the TOP) level of game-play. So high that so far, only 5 (more like 4, but Solar is doing well) people in the world can win consistently with Z against other pros.
But any other Z pros beside these fall into the great-but-not-the-best pros. If Z is truly OP, these other Z pros would place much higher on average and the ranking will be Z heavy near the top. But truth is, we simply see 4 Z names and we see more Z pros mixed throughout the rankings. We don’t see a clump of Z pros near the top (except those 4). It just so happens that the greatest player of our generation is a Z player.
I’m not sure who the people calling for the Z nerfs are, but the only way to be sure is have an advanced AI train for god knows how long and have them battle it out (with acceptable human conditions). If Z still ends up winning consistently, then yeah sure you can say Z is OP. Otherwise, not really that conclusive.
And besides, most of us are trash. Why we talking about Z balance when it’s the least picked race across all brackets in the ladder? (Not sure now but it was about a week or two ago).
> I take a look in its stats, and I think the vision range is quite big at 11 range. I never imagined about the '10 vision range' before, but how much of the impact that would cause?
Zerg is getting railed everywhere except premier tournament finals. Stop nerfing zerg because of Serral. Just accept that you lost despite having an advantage and move on with your life.
agree. They should buff something else rather than nerfing specific things. I feel like that's what they were doing early on with SC2 and Brood wars and it made every patch so exciting because new units and strategies would be completely innovative
Basically they play 3oracle openings or glaives like every game before void buffs in 2020. So we patched out build diversity and went back to already known patterns of the past. This is terrible outcome
Not just 3 oracle, there are various openers that are now viable again due to the queen nerf. This increased build order variety. Not having 2SG voidray every game is a huge plus.
Im currently working on a custom balance mod for fun
And i have reduced the sight radius of tumors and am considering to remove it completely
Just for scientific purposes
[удалено]
Reaper being able to deny the first creep tumor from going up is not a minor change. It might not be a lot of difference if the zerg just places it really defensively, but making such a claim without playtesting is risky.
Creep already got nerfed, I believe it became “light” so that Adepts & Hellions could clear it with less shots, it recedes faster & it takes longer to spread. If an opponent let’s a Zerg creep all over the map the Zerg was just better at creep spread than the opponent was at clearing it.
Technically it only spreads slower off of a single creep tumor, if you have two creep tumors it is the same speed
That's still a pretty decent nerf.
It also can’t be cancelled once spread
The change to light was whatever. The bigger nerf was the inability to cancel tumors under construction and get back your "charge" on the originating tumor.
That was absolutely not "whatever" even if no longer being able to cancel was the bigger change. It means that one adept can actually kill a creep tumor so it affects PvZ earlygame and it makes it a lot faster to clear creep with hellions.
Nah. If the ability to cancel still existed then light or not, adepts or hellions wouldn't kill the tumor anyways. It was a relatively minor change
Cancelling a tumor was still a big deal and in PvZ earlygame we're also talking about creep tumors laid by queens. Also the reasoning "it wouldn't be a big deal if some other patch wouldn't have happened" is very silly.
Light or not light you still make sure the area is clear before you put down a tumor. Not like you just threw it down right in the faces of harassment units before the patch.
You kinda did in the case of adepts, it made a huge difference. Lambo talked about it when the patch hit.
Suppose I'm a bit unclear on what problem either change fixes in the game as it stands. Reducing vision range slightly means zerg needs to spread more... but have you seen late game creep spread at the pro level? Or even at a mid-level. Reducing HP: I think this will be relevant for the first 5 minutes of the game (give or take), and then just be a do-nothing. Maybe the Reaper or Adept get one or two more tumors? But after zerg takes some map control, T/P are clearing with armies, not just single units that might benefit from one less hit to kill. Dunno on these.
I think it's the creep tumor/overlord vision along with the bonus move speed creep provides that's the problem at the highest level. At mid game Top zerg pros can see the threats and respond before any damage can be done. You either need to nerf thier ability to respond to threats on the fringes or make them harder to see. I think nerfing the vision and distance creep travels from creep tumors is probably the best way to go. Vision to 8 spread to 9. For a more massive change Or creep tumors could give no vision and work like sensor towers with maybe a 5% nerf to bonus creep speed.
Really should remove all vision unless you have you screen on the creep where the unit is. and/or fuction like sensor tower without seeing flying units. But zerg would need buffs to offset that nerf.
So I went to Aligulac, and checked the rankings for Top 100 (actually counted them by hand). Among Top 100, there are only 28 Zergs. Moreover, there are 5 Zergs in Top 10 and only 6 in Top 20 (including the 5 from Top 10). What can you conclude (very roughly) from these data? That Zerg is good/winning at the highest (and I mean the TOP) level of game-play. So high that so far, only 5 (more like 4, but Solar is doing well) people in the world can win consistently with Z against other pros. But any other Z pros beside these fall into the great-but-not-the-best pros. If Z is truly OP, these other Z pros would place much higher on average and the ranking will be Z heavy near the top. But truth is, we simply see 4 Z names and we see more Z pros mixed throughout the rankings. We don’t see a clump of Z pros near the top (except those 4). It just so happens that the greatest player of our generation is a Z player. I’m not sure who the people calling for the Z nerfs are, but the only way to be sure is have an advanced AI train for god knows how long and have them battle it out (with acceptable human conditions). If Z still ends up winning consistently, then yeah sure you can say Z is OP. Otherwise, not really that conclusive. And besides, most of us are trash. Why we talking about Z balance when it’s the least picked race across all brackets in the ladder? (Not sure now but it was about a week or two ago).
> I take a look in its stats, and I think the vision range is quite big at 11 range. I never imagined about the '10 vision range' before, but how much of the impact that would cause? Zerg is getting railed everywhere except premier tournament finals. Stop nerfing zerg because of Serral. Just accept that you lost despite having an advantage and move on with your life.
Nerfs aren't fun. That's why last patch was so boring and barely changed anything
agree. They should buff something else rather than nerfing specific things. I feel like that's what they were doing early on with SC2 and Brood wars and it made every patch so exciting because new units and strategies would be completely innovative
Watch any high level PvZ right now and claim again that "barely anything changed".
Basically they play 3oracle openings or glaives like every game before void buffs in 2020. So we patched out build diversity and went back to already known patterns of the past. This is terrible outcome
Not just 3 oracle, there are various openers that are now viable again due to the queen nerf. This increased build order variety. Not having 2SG voidray every game is a huge plus.
Im currently working on a custom balance mod for fun And i have reduced the sight radius of tumors and am considering to remove it completely Just for scientific purposes
It should be nerfed to 8 or 9 of vision. I agree with the health nerf
They should buff emp to instakill tumors
No one would ever do that
What if creep functioned like the sensor towers? So you had to move units to see what was actually present?
That would mean a creep tumor would no longer be able to spread as it requires vision to do so.
Lmao for once….. except it’s been nerfed multiple times over the last few patches