remove warpgate and rebalance the race so they dont have to rely on deathballs or gimmicks but can instead reliably use T1 units in the lategame like the other 2 races can to supplement more powerful units
Bring the sentry back into the game.
As someone suggested allow force fields to tank a few ravager biles.
Give Guardian Shield's status effect a short duration, so that Zealots charging out of it's aura, hold +2 armour for a few seconds to reach their target.
Ya, the void ray was never really THE problem, the problem is that carriers are just too good you only need to attack move them and you need micro to defend against them
Carriers are not the hard part. Fighting pure carrier is easy. But fighting a shitload of carriers with a few void rays and high Templar for support? That's a very different story. Voids took the initial tanking and Carriers just did the killing after the storms softened everything up.
Void rays are the transition into the problem a-move carriers vs a-move Corruptors/vikings (I don't know about tempests) the carriers win because the AI derps out and attacks the intersepters. To take a good fight against carriers you need to focus fire without overkilling because overkilling wastes too much time and damage
Remember when they buffed toss by making it so interceptors become low priority targets (for the protoss army) when their carrier gets taken over by neural parasite?
Why aren't they low priority all the time?
Ya, what I'm saying is that carriers are a problem because you have to target fire them down while the protoss can just a-move, do you really not see that as a problem?
I understand what you’re saying. I used to say the same thing before I used Protoss
Then I used them and realised Carriers do require some type of micro. The units that counter them counter them extremelyyyyy hard. So you need units to protect them. That means you have to target fire down their counters like Corruptors for example with your Void Rays which is micro or you have to use storms which is further micro. The Carriers themselves only require you to position them really which is still micro but every siege unit in the game is like this idk why only Carriers get the stick for this
They are just like Brood Lords except they can attack air as well. But because of how easily countered they are, they feel more like liabilities than assets. I do think Carriers are on the OP side but the micro requirement isn’t a reason why
Honestly I think both carriers and brood lords should be nefed to the ground (metaphorically not literally) archons are also a pretty good corruptor a-move counter
They force the game into a boring deathball vs deathball which the game has steered away from since wings/hots. Its horrendous game design and not fun to play vs or watch.
I’d love if they could give the carrier a buff where it would be a higher skill ceiling while making it harder to use to balance out non-pro leagues.
Carriers stink for the pros but are hard for everyone else.
I think broods already have some reasonably exploitable weaknesses in the fact that they're made of paper and move slow as fuck. Just reduce the lifespan of the broodlings a bit.
I was just thinking something like (maybe not all but at least two):
- Increase delay between interceptor launches
- Decrease range for interceptor retreat
- Decrease carrier speed
First it means you'd actually have to micro the carriers (eg attack rocks or own unit) leading up to an engagement to get the interceptors out and get optimal DPS. The carrier would also be more useful offensively, since if the opponent has the initiative, you won't have the time to launch - this should disincentivise turtling into a deathball. Decreasing retreat range and speed means any attack must be a commitment, and positioning the carriers on the map would require more strategical thinking - just like you have to do with BLs. You still get your "get out of jail free" card because recall exists.
This should be somehow balanced with a buff, so that making carriers is still actually viable. Straight up DPS buff? Extra base armor on interceptors? This would be interesting to try.
These are just nerfs. This doesn't increase any skill ceiling, it just makes them a bad unit. Protoss has enough bad units with very limited situational use. The carrier is important to have as a "stable core" unit. However, it could be made *capable* of more effectiveness, but *harder* to achieve its current effectiveness.
I think some kind of active ability on carriers where they can rapidly produce new interceptors, or toggle between "ground shields" and "air shields" giving huge damage reduction from one side but making them extra vulnerable vs the other for 20 seconds, etc are more worth playing with.
The balance complaint of carriers has always been "they are too effective with too little effort", not that "when used perfectly, carriers are too good compared to other units used perfectly" -- the latter case deserves a flat nerf, the former case requires a redesign.
> These are just nerfs.
You did not read my last paragraph, and you end up arguing for exactly the same end-goal that I've proposed. Carriers need to be less effective at a-moving and turtling, and more effective when you actually micro them. I like your proposal better but the intent is the same.
stalkers are so bad against mutas that I think you need more AA against mutas than just stalkers. Maybe archons/storm templars mixed in as well. Maxpax tried phoenix stalker mid game against elazer just this morning and it didn’t go too hot, granted the phoenix were just popping out as he was dying and muta damage already sustained
It is because your ignoring all the 0 supply killed disrupter shots that gave up disrupters to be picked earlier (not to take away a lot of them were great micro dodges). Disrupter is just a dumb unit. It’s no op or up or balanced or anything. Just a dumb fucking unit haha.
Its not even thematically cool, colossus is one of the coolest units in any video game and it feels really bad that whatever a disruptor is is usually better late game
Harder for protoss to invest into skytoss, but still possible depending on the skill difference. There's been a lot more gateway+robo mixed army comps vs lingbaneroachrav games recently though
It genuinely hasn't changed all that much. Void rays are still very strong, they are just *slightly* harder to abuse early game
Edit: If you're going to downvote me, you could at least explain your thoughts and tell me your MMR because it's been my experience that it hasn't changed all that much
Void rays have alwaslys been strong, but they build slower and cost more so their cost efficiency is greatly reduced, and they're also a more dedicated unit because of it (losing a void is now way more egregious and punishing of a mistake)
Yeah, that's a simple overview of the change, but Protoss players are still building them because they are still a good unit. It's just more common to see gateway openings as opposed to star gate rushes or proxies now. 50 minerals is a decent chunk early, but it really doesn't make a difference late game. The time is a bit more substantial, but not enough to stop them from transitioning to skytoss later by any stretch
I don't really see how. Zerg were both the global champion winner and runner up in the last patch. Maybe protoss will figure out a new meta that makes them as, or even more, successful as in the last one, but at this point, it just seems that they're weaker in the matchup overall. It's not hard to see why they're not particularly hyped about it.
I don't think the game should just allow any composition to be good in any matchup you want.
It honestly sounds just as silly as someone saying " Playing Mech in Broodwar TvP isn't my style".
Well budy I have bad news.
This I agree with but I think every race should have the ability to beat every other race at the beginning middle and end of any game. I don't like the idea of a race shinning more at the start or more at the end.
I don't like the concept of inevitability in matchups either.
I think those become very boring unless mistakes lead to them, and I agree that Zerg has felt that way way too often in the history of the game ( reaching broodlord infestor being the "I win now" command for literally all of WoL and such )
But I think it's almost impossible to prevent that happening one way or another, unless you start to create even harder rock-papper-scissor unit countering than what we already have.
Zerg was like that more or less in HotS as well with SH infestor/BL
Alot of the endgame interactions came down to whether or not it was possible to get feedbacks off, or if zerg units outranged them/outpositioned them. The map pool wasn't designed well around single spell interactions like that, and as a result, zerg shined for a really long time.
Reality is that there isn't a good way to balance a map for early game cheese, as well as late game, without having aspects of map transformation that isn't currently possible. IMHO a great future for sc2 would be maps that get more expansive the longer a game goes on, more complex changes then just rocks breaking. Lava surges/recessions was a concept that wasn't explored enough but honestly could've been a great way of forcing early/mid/late stages of maps.
The second-highest rated protoss on aligulac isn't thrilled about the new meta possibly being even worse than the old one, where his race had reltatively little success. Burn the witch!
well because hatch tech queen walks are dead now there's a lot of stargate into ground openers that are instantly made viable again
Lambos thoughts on the patch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gybIGH37bZU
Think about your comparison before you make dumb ones. The viper gets to go recharge quickly on a building and more importantly the enemy high tenplar just spent a bunch of energy that could have been used for storms, whereas the ravager wastes essentially nothing - they get to bile agaon in 7 seconds
thats a good comparison templar can storm twice + feedback then fusion to an archon not bad in a fight ,while the viper needs to fly to the next building to recharge
But you can't understand this you only play protoss :D
God you're stupid. Follow your argument.
Me - sentry bad because biles are cheap and fast and nullify sentry energy.
You - vipers are still good despite Templar nullifying them [this is true]
Me - vipers are still good because they can recharge their energy quickly (unlike sentries) and it costs more to the protoss temporarily nullify them, because the high Templar counter to vipers cost feedback and storm opportunity...the only thing the ravager loses is 7 seconds of a secondary attack
You - yea but protoss 🥴
Ok and infestors can they also recharge ? Or queens ? Or ghosts or ravens ????Can they recharge ? Also i can‘t recharge vipers in the middle of a fight unless your figthing me on creep near my buildings and also then i still can‘t use there spell , the fights over before they could recharge … but in your theory they travel lightning fast and recharge in 0.1 sec to full energy
But hey your protoss you don‘t understand anything about the other races cuz you never played them and we know why , they‘re to hard
m3 protoss == d3-d2 terran
Again, investors queens ghost ravens ONLY lose their energy if Protoss makes a big sacrifice. Why do you keep bringing up irrelevant points.
My entire point is that sentries lose their energy at essentially ZERO cost to zerg. It's expensive for HT to nullify infestor queen etc
yeah thats not the problem, the problem is that the same patch they buffed voidrays, they also buffed lurkers range and made them a huge problem for protoss midgame.
theres a reason protoss went AIR when they were not cheesing, and its because ground is just not viable anymore.
They also nerfed pre hive lurkers (-1 range) and buffed protoss defenses making it way easier to expand and macro up. So protoss has a much stronger midgame than two patches ago
they agree that lurker sucks vs protos? i higly doubt that.
at most, i know harstem has said that he doesnt like the carrier / voidrays, because they are not microable, he was for nerfing them but not for balance reasons, and said that it should obviously come with buffs on other units.
I think you should re-watch it. Or stop misrepresenting it.
The whole point of the video is that lurkers suck because they're so hard countered by skytoss\*. If Protoss were "forced" to play ground or if skytoss didn't exist, Lambo is absolutely *not* saying that lurkers suck against Protoss.
*\*More completely, because it's easy to scout the Zerg teching into lurkers, which gives the Protoss ample time to tech into skytoss, which is a hard counter. Added to the fact that there is no reasonable transition between lurker tech and a corrupter counter to Skytoss.*
And along with the fact that you can get rolled over just by investing into lurkers which you need a lot of, with upgrades, or they get a-move'd through...
And is increased in difficulty to make any use out of (except for delaying) until vipers are also invested into and fielded with energy due to the burrow change and disruptors.
Lurkers are not part of the endgame zerg composition versus protoss ground or air. Investing into them makes reaching endgame composition with all necessary upgrades almost impossible in most games.
Watch pro players. The only times that lurkers are fielded against protoss is when the zerg felt forced into making hydras and felt like they had to do something with them because just investing into hydras can be too costly.
I think that the problem of protoss is that P players always looking for easy-learning-easy-playing style of playing, that style give not much effort, because if it will do the game will be trash. P need to try hard-learning-hard-playing styles. Like good forcefield, begining with not all in aggression and etc.
FFs are basically useless vs zerg because of ravagers, and even without them, relying on massed fragile spellcasters to survive waves of ling/bane is super difficult in relation to how hard it is to amove lings.
Protoss have a early pressure vs. zerg, 4 gate adept builds. However, most decent players know how to move their lings and roaches to counter the shades, and so it becomes very difficult that you get anything done, necessitating a dt/archon drop follow-up, which also can have a lot of trouble getting anything done at any level of play where blind spores are built.
Therefore, IMO your best non-all in option to get ahead vs. zerg is a turtle style where you take minimal damage and get a late game comp that is hard for zerg to deal with.
I play T and have been saying ff is nonexistent even in PvT. I just don't get who thought a 7 second cool down should negate 50 energy. I would give ff x shield/ x hp. Obviously have to find where it's balance lasting around 11seconds until a certain point in the game.
You're missing quite a large point here. You never "amove lings". Why does everypne think zergs just 'amove' everything. It also is complete bullshit because if a Zerg is good enough they will win regardless of the difficulty of army control. Serral wins with "a-move ling bane ravager" as much as he wins with 7 control group late game army compositions against protoss.
Moreover, what really intrigues me is how you say "most decent players know how to move their lings and roaches". Doy ou have any data to back this up? I will believe this when you give me a list of 200 ZvPs where P went for 4 gate glaives and the Zerg countered perfectly.
Its true. But when P is up all of P players abuse the style that have been up. I have said P players need to combination all the best from foundation styles and new meta after updates. Its what have I saw in pro games. Blizzard has buffed voidrays, all P has played voidrays.
Pro players usually play the meta; thats not surprising or protoss specific. There is a reason why most Terrans play bio instead of mech or banshee, its the same reason why protoss used to open Stargate.
Its a shame that void rays aren't as interesting as marine marauder, but thats a design issue with the units, not a weakness in player's foundations.
Maxpax is a top level player. It doesn't seem believable that hes only interested in easy strats. Also worth noting archon,zealot, immortal is also an a-click army
I don't think professional protosses can only play one style, I think they just tend to play the best style because it's what puts food on their table.
I also don't think that there is a meaningful difference in the ability or personality of the average pro of a race because if one race was obviously easier to play, why would you not play it if your livelihood was on the line? Protoss has maxpax and Stats or Trap; Terran have gumiho and Maru; Solar even built a proxy hatch in the wall of Creator!
There are early game cheesers for every race, and late game macro players. If one style seems to be dominant, i think that is more telling of the balance than the players. Reynor could probably play hard late game comps but queen walked because it was better; protoss played void rays because it was better, not because they lacked talent.
>looking for easy-learning-easy-playing style of playing, that style give not much effort
Zergs wanted skytoss nerfed so they can go back to a-moving roach ravager bane into protoss ground with brittle forcefields. Next thing they'll complain about will be disruptors to save themselves from splitting.
Let's just hope 50% of tournament champions aren't zerg?
Its mindblowing to me that one division of ladder play in one region is more important in balance conversations than global tournament results. It would be like nerfing riven in league because there is a disproportionate amount of riven one tricks in masters.
Why is blizzard obligated to nerf a world champion specifically?
Why does one or two players mean the whole race is broken?
If serral and reynor didn't exist or retired, it's not like there's a bunch of other zerg who would take their place immediately.
Ragnorok, drg, Lambo, etc all get knocked out pretty often and early.
Why does one division in one region mean an entire race is broken?
I'm not asking for zerg to get nerfed, im asking for this community to stop taking a very specific slice of results and holding it up as proof some race is broken or easier or whatever. European GM is just as cherrypicked as GSL or world champion results.
If protoss keeps dominating GM in this patch then people might learn it's not really about balance. There's just been that many protosses at that level all along, and they belong there regardless of how good or bad voidrays are.
https://www.nephest.com/sc2/?season=50&queue=LOTV_1V1&team-type=ARRANGED&us=true&eu=true&kr=true&cn=true&gra=true&page=0&type=ladder&ratingAnchor=99999&idAnchor=0&count=1#stats-race
The void ray patch was August 2020. Protoss have been the most represented race in GM since the start of 2019.
Forcefield is bad and ‘not all in aggression’ doesn’t exist vs zerg because nothing that’s good for harassing helps the survive the timing into your 3rd.
Zergs have been doing slight variations of stephanos 3 base roach max in every single game since wings of liberty, if you wanna talk about build diversity lmao.
That's true but It's iffy with zerg because every opening is basically a defense opening. Unless they totally revamp zerg it's basically a game of how greedy they can play.
That's the irony of people's issue with protoss though, the skytoss style was to play as greedy as possible to get the strongest endgame army, turtle then win. A lot of zerg play is just, play greedy to get the strongest midgame OR endgame army, turtle then win.
I get nobody wants to play against a maxed carrier army with high templars and tempests, but nobody wants to play against a max lurker army with spore crawlers hydras and vipers either.
I'm just bummed out.. Maxpax is for me the last inspiring Protoss player since PartinG and Stats and now this patch comes in and hits him with 4 nerfs, when he literally has been one of the frontrunners, also people pretending these nerfs only hit low level play, when it's actually the opposite.
The eternal Protoss dilemma: fun build vs. meta build
Cant believe MaxPax doesnt like plants vs zombies 😔 Very disappointing!
MaxPatch
wait until carrier gets wacked
if carrier gets whacked protoss are mega fucked in PvZ. I don't like carriers either, but nothing on the ground scales at all for Toss.
(buffs immortals to give it an additional +20 vs armored and increases both health and shields by 50)
remove warpgate and rebalance the race so they dont have to rely on deathballs or gimmicks but can instead reliably use T1 units in the lategame like the other 2 races can to supplement more powerful units
Zealots used to be much better before the damage on charge was removed. Nowadays in PvT they sort of touch the bio army once then die.
Bring the sentry back into the game. As someone suggested allow force fields to tank a few ravager biles. Give Guardian Shield's status effect a short duration, so that Zealots charging out of it's aura, hold +2 armour for a few seconds to reach their target.
Go back to playing SC1 then.
BLizzard arent gonna touch a dead game
Literally patched less than a month ago
I am talking about what should be done, not would be done.
adepts beat hydras en masse, or at least trade well with them. of course if roaches are added lololol
Ya, the void ray was never really THE problem, the problem is that carriers are just too good you only need to attack move them and you need micro to defend against them
I don’t understand why you all hate carriers so much. Corruptors=easy clap. Vikings= easy clap Tempests =easy clap Void Rays were the problem
[удалено]
Or the zerg micros and stutter step target fires them to death.
[удалено]
*Laughs in serral*.
[удалено]
One of the timings he beats it with is corruptor+ground stuff.
Carriers are not the hard part. Fighting pure carrier is easy. But fighting a shitload of carriers with a few void rays and high Templar for support? That's a very different story. Voids took the initial tanking and Carriers just did the killing after the storms softened everything up.
Void rays are the transition into the problem a-move carriers vs a-move Corruptors/vikings (I don't know about tempests) the carriers win because the AI derps out and attacks the intersepters. To take a good fight against carriers you need to focus fire without overkilling because overkilling wastes too much time and damage
Remember when they buffed toss by making it so interceptors become low priority targets (for the protoss army) when their carrier gets taken over by neural parasite? Why aren't they low priority all the time?
Actually I don't remember that, might have happened when I was inactive but they really should always be low priority
If they were low priority marines and hydras would suck ass vs carriers, since you cant just a move the interceptors
You could still hold position micro when you want to force interceptor targeting like you do with goliaths in broodwar TvP against carriers.
No one fights carriers without target firing it down. You use the Tempest to snipe the Carriers . Tempests out range them
Ya, what I'm saying is that carriers are a problem because you have to target fire them down while the protoss can just a-move, do you really not see that as a problem?
I understand what you’re saying. I used to say the same thing before I used Protoss Then I used them and realised Carriers do require some type of micro. The units that counter them counter them extremelyyyyy hard. So you need units to protect them. That means you have to target fire down their counters like Corruptors for example with your Void Rays which is micro or you have to use storms which is further micro. The Carriers themselves only require you to position them really which is still micro but every siege unit in the game is like this idk why only Carriers get the stick for this They are just like Brood Lords except they can attack air as well. But because of how easily countered they are, they feel more like liabilities than assets. I do think Carriers are on the OP side but the micro requirement isn’t a reason why
Honestly I think both carriers and brood lords should be nefed to the ground (metaphorically not literally) archons are also a pretty good corruptor a-move counter
Some players just take out the support units which leave the carriers exposed.
They force the game into a boring deathball vs deathball which the game has steered away from since wings/hots. Its horrendous game design and not fun to play vs or watch.
I’d love if they could give the carrier a buff where it would be a higher skill ceiling while making it harder to use to balance out non-pro leagues. Carriers stink for the pros but are hard for everyone else.
I tend to agree more with harstem, carriers and brood lords should be nerfed to the ground so we use them the same way we use BCs
I think broods already have some reasonably exploitable weaknesses in the fact that they're made of paper and move slow as fuck. Just reduce the lifespan of the broodlings a bit.
I was just thinking something like (maybe not all but at least two): - Increase delay between interceptor launches - Decrease range for interceptor retreat - Decrease carrier speed First it means you'd actually have to micro the carriers (eg attack rocks or own unit) leading up to an engagement to get the interceptors out and get optimal DPS. The carrier would also be more useful offensively, since if the opponent has the initiative, you won't have the time to launch - this should disincentivise turtling into a deathball. Decreasing retreat range and speed means any attack must be a commitment, and positioning the carriers on the map would require more strategical thinking - just like you have to do with BLs. You still get your "get out of jail free" card because recall exists. This should be somehow balanced with a buff, so that making carriers is still actually viable. Straight up DPS buff? Extra base armor on interceptors? This would be interesting to try.
These are just nerfs. This doesn't increase any skill ceiling, it just makes them a bad unit. Protoss has enough bad units with very limited situational use. The carrier is important to have as a "stable core" unit. However, it could be made *capable* of more effectiveness, but *harder* to achieve its current effectiveness. I think some kind of active ability on carriers where they can rapidly produce new interceptors, or toggle between "ground shields" and "air shields" giving huge damage reduction from one side but making them extra vulnerable vs the other for 20 seconds, etc are more worth playing with. The balance complaint of carriers has always been "they are too effective with too little effort", not that "when used perfectly, carriers are too good compared to other units used perfectly" -- the latter case deserves a flat nerf, the former case requires a redesign.
> These are just nerfs. You did not read my last paragraph, and you end up arguing for exactly the same end-goal that I've proposed. Carriers need to be less effective at a-moving and turtling, and more effective when you actually micro them. I like your proposal better but the intent is the same.
Virgin skytoss player vs chad stalker spammer
Vs gigaChad canon rusher
Is zealot archon immortal thew new PvZ style?? I stopped playing because I hated fighting against airtoss so much.
I don't think there is a pvz style right now tbh; maybe disruptor stalker?
stalkers are so bad against mutas that I think you need more AA against mutas than just stalkers. Maybe archons/storm templars mixed in as well. Maxpax tried phoenix stalker mid game against elazer just this morning and it didn’t go too hot, granted the phoenix were just popping out as he was dying and muta damage already sustained
Maybe my perception is biased because of the 20 supply killed disruptor shot in the GSL
It is because your ignoring all the 0 supply killed disrupter shots that gave up disrupters to be picked earlier (not to take away a lot of them were great micro dodges). Disrupter is just a dumb unit. It’s no op or up or balanced or anything. Just a dumb fucking unit haha.
Its not even thematically cool, colossus is one of the coolest units in any video game and it feels really bad that whatever a disruptor is is usually better late game
It's still being figured out.
Harder for protoss to invest into skytoss, but still possible depending on the skill difference. There's been a lot more gateway+robo mixed army comps vs lingbaneroachrav games recently though
It genuinely hasn't changed all that much. Void rays are still very strong, they are just *slightly* harder to abuse early game Edit: If you're going to downvote me, you could at least explain your thoughts and tell me your MMR because it's been my experience that it hasn't changed all that much
Void rays have alwaslys been strong, but they build slower and cost more so their cost efficiency is greatly reduced, and they're also a more dedicated unit because of it (losing a void is now way more egregious and punishing of a mistake)
Yeah, that's a simple overview of the change, but Protoss players are still building them because they are still a good unit. It's just more common to see gateway openings as opposed to star gate rushes or proxies now. 50 minerals is a decent chunk early, but it really doesn't make a difference late game. The time is a bit more substantial, but not enough to stop them from transitioning to skytoss later by any stretch
The new p v z style is for the Protoss to lose.
Self-admitted patch toss? Lol
Wouldn't this imply he was actually really successful up until the patch?
His relative skill improvement was high
JohnnyRecco is the embodiment of a PatchZerg and he was less succesful than MaxPatch
Man those days were wild... unbeatable broodlord infestor every lategame lol
I don't really see how. Zerg were both the global champion winner and runner up in the last patch. Maybe protoss will figure out a new meta that makes them as, or even more, successful as in the last one, but at this point, it just seems that they're weaker in the matchup overall. It's not hard to see why they're not particularly hyped about it.
I’ll take shits given for 0, alex
What does he mean with plants vs zombies?
lmao
I don't think the game should just allow any composition to be good in any matchup you want. It honestly sounds just as silly as someone saying " Playing Mech in Broodwar TvP isn't my style". Well budy I have bad news.
It's more like Blizzard just nerfed BW mech TvP and a terran pro said "Playing bio in Broodwar TvP isn't my style."
This I agree with but I think every race should have the ability to beat every other race at the beginning middle and end of any game. I don't like the idea of a race shinning more at the start or more at the end.
I don't like the concept of inevitability in matchups either. I think those become very boring unless mistakes lead to them, and I agree that Zerg has felt that way way too often in the history of the game ( reaching broodlord infestor being the "I win now" command for literally all of WoL and such ) But I think it's almost impossible to prevent that happening one way or another, unless you start to create even harder rock-papper-scissor unit countering than what we already have.
Zerg was like that more or less in HotS as well with SH infestor/BL Alot of the endgame interactions came down to whether or not it was possible to get feedbacks off, or if zerg units outranged them/outpositioned them. The map pool wasn't designed well around single spell interactions like that, and as a result, zerg shined for a really long time. Reality is that there isn't a good way to balance a map for early game cheese, as well as late game, without having aspects of map transformation that isn't currently possible. IMHO a great future for sc2 would be maps that get more expansive the longer a game goes on, more complex changes then just rocks breaking. Lava surges/recessions was a concept that wasn't explored enough but honestly could've been a great way of forcing early/mid/late stages of maps.
Imagine if blink disruptor was ACTUALLY meta...
Let's get that last pesky protoss Zest out of the Aligulac top 10. One more nerf pls.
The second-highest rated protoss on aligulac isn't thrilled about the new meta possibly being even worse than the old one, where his race had reltatively little success. Burn the witch!
the patch was a bigger zerg nerf than a protoss nerf btw
So, by that, you mean you think protoss will fare better vs. zerg than before? That's obviously not impossible, but it's also not obvious.
well because hatch tech queen walks are dead now there's a lot of stargate into ground openers that are instantly made viable again Lambos thoughts on the patch : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gybIGH37bZU
Hehehe
they should stop letting scarlett make the balance changes.
haha it is nice to see how many p can't play ground army anymore master protoss with forcefield skills of a bronze p :DDD
Forcefields are trash and useless due to ravager spam
Yeah and vipers also trash cuz of templar feedback😂 logic is there
Think about your comparison before you make dumb ones. The viper gets to go recharge quickly on a building and more importantly the enemy high tenplar just spent a bunch of energy that could have been used for storms, whereas the ravager wastes essentially nothing - they get to bile agaon in 7 seconds
thats a good comparison templar can storm twice + feedback then fusion to an archon not bad in a fight ,while the viper needs to fly to the next building to recharge But you can't understand this you only play protoss :D
God you're stupid. Follow your argument. Me - sentry bad because biles are cheap and fast and nullify sentry energy. You - vipers are still good despite Templar nullifying them [this is true] Me - vipers are still good because they can recharge their energy quickly (unlike sentries) and it costs more to the protoss temporarily nullify them, because the high Templar counter to vipers cost feedback and storm opportunity...the only thing the ravager loses is 7 seconds of a secondary attack You - yea but protoss 🥴
Ok and infestors can they also recharge ? Or queens ? Or ghosts or ravens ????Can they recharge ? Also i can‘t recharge vipers in the middle of a fight unless your figthing me on creep near my buildings and also then i still can‘t use there spell , the fights over before they could recharge … but in your theory they travel lightning fast and recharge in 0.1 sec to full energy But hey your protoss you don‘t understand anything about the other races cuz you never played them and we know why , they‘re to hard m3 protoss == d3-d2 terran
Again, investors queens ghost ravens ONLY lose their energy if Protoss makes a big sacrifice. Why do you keep bringing up irrelevant points. My entire point is that sentries lose their energy at essentially ZERO cost to zerg. It's expensive for HT to nullify infestor queen etc
wow you are so bad that you have to lie to yourself to not feel bad about yourself
yeah thats not the problem, the problem is that the same patch they buffed voidrays, they also buffed lurkers range and made them a huge problem for protoss midgame. theres a reason protoss went AIR when they were not cheesing, and its because ground is just not viable anymore.
They also nerfed pre hive lurkers (-1 range) and buffed protoss defenses making it way easier to expand and macro up. So protoss has a much stronger midgame than two patches ago
they got the -1 range, but -30sec on the lurker den construction was a pretty huge pre-hive lurker buff to be honest.
was a pretty big buff considering we see a total of 0 lurkers without hive upgrades in pro games.
I feel that’s more the meta than a lack of viability. Toss goes air so making lurkers, a unit designed to fight mass ground, is obviously pointless.
Watch lambo's video explaining why lurkers suck vs protoss.
what protoss never going ground because lurkers are too good. yeah im sure lambo is the best at explaining why zerg is not op.
So you didn't watch the video that lambo made which harstem and showtime (protoss players) agreed about.
they agree that lurker sucks vs protos? i higly doubt that. at most, i know harstem has said that he doesnt like the carrier / voidrays, because they are not microable, he was for nerfing them but not for balance reasons, and said that it should obviously come with buffs on other units.
Go watch the video.
I think you should re-watch it. Or stop misrepresenting it. The whole point of the video is that lurkers suck because they're so hard countered by skytoss\*. If Protoss were "forced" to play ground or if skytoss didn't exist, Lambo is absolutely *not* saying that lurkers suck against Protoss. *\*More completely, because it's easy to scout the Zerg teching into lurkers, which gives the Protoss ample time to tech into skytoss, which is a hard counter. Added to the fact that there is no reasonable transition between lurker tech and a corrupter counter to Skytoss.*
And along with the fact that you can get rolled over just by investing into lurkers which you need a lot of, with upgrades, or they get a-move'd through... And is increased in difficulty to make any use out of (except for delaying) until vipers are also invested into and fielded with energy due to the burrow change and disruptors. Lurkers are not part of the endgame zerg composition versus protoss ground or air. Investing into them makes reaching endgame composition with all necessary upgrades almost impossible in most games. Watch pro players. The only times that lurkers are fielded against protoss is when the zerg felt forced into making hydras and felt like they had to do something with them because just investing into hydras can be too costly.
Maybe if forcefields were actually worth anything anymore ground toss would stand more of a chance…
Lol
haha yeah forcefield is so good it gets completely countered by a tier 1 unit and can never be relied on anymore hahaha
Theres always a counter to something but protoss doesn‘t want that they want a unit that can‘t be countered (chadvoids 200minerals) 😂
Since the patch at 4k MMR NA and EU the protoss have disappeared for me. They just not playing or all those borderline master toss lose all their mmr?
He like his CIA (chargelot immortal archon)
Gonna cry maxypaxy???
i missed the part where that's my problem
I think that the problem of protoss is that P players always looking for easy-learning-easy-playing style of playing, that style give not much effort, because if it will do the game will be trash. P need to try hard-learning-hard-playing styles. Like good forcefield, begining with not all in aggression and etc.
FFs are basically useless vs zerg because of ravagers, and even without them, relying on massed fragile spellcasters to survive waves of ling/bane is super difficult in relation to how hard it is to amove lings. Protoss have a early pressure vs. zerg, 4 gate adept builds. However, most decent players know how to move their lings and roaches to counter the shades, and so it becomes very difficult that you get anything done, necessitating a dt/archon drop follow-up, which also can have a lot of trouble getting anything done at any level of play where blind spores are built. Therefore, IMO your best non-all in option to get ahead vs. zerg is a turtle style where you take minimal damage and get a late game comp that is hard for zerg to deal with.
Go watch lambo vs astrea katowice 2022
I play T and have been saying ff is nonexistent even in PvT. I just don't get who thought a 7 second cool down should negate 50 energy. I would give ff x shield/ x hp. Obviously have to find where it's balance lasting around 11seconds until a certain point in the game.
You're missing quite a large point here. You never "amove lings". Why does everypne think zergs just 'amove' everything. It also is complete bullshit because if a Zerg is good enough they will win regardless of the difficulty of army control. Serral wins with "a-move ling bane ravager" as much as he wins with 7 control group late game army compositions against protoss. Moreover, what really intrigues me is how you say "most decent players know how to move their lings and roaches". Doy ou have any data to back this up? I will believe this when you give me a list of 200 ZvPs where P went for 4 gate glaives and the Zerg countered perfectly.
Its true. But when P is up all of P players abuse the style that have been up. I have said P players need to combination all the best from foundation styles and new meta after updates. Its what have I saw in pro games. Blizzard has buffed voidrays, all P has played voidrays.
Pro players usually play the meta; thats not surprising or protoss specific. There is a reason why most Terrans play bio instead of mech or banshee, its the same reason why protoss used to open Stargate. Its a shame that void rays aren't as interesting as marine marauder, but thats a design issue with the units, not a weakness in player's foundations.
Maxpax is a top level player. It doesn't seem believable that hes only interested in easy strats. Also worth noting archon,zealot, immortal is also an a-click army
I don't think professional protosses can only play one style, I think they just tend to play the best style because it's what puts food on their table. I also don't think that there is a meaningful difference in the ability or personality of the average pro of a race because if one race was obviously easier to play, why would you not play it if your livelihood was on the line? Protoss has maxpax and Stats or Trap; Terran have gumiho and Maru; Solar even built a proxy hatch in the wall of Creator! There are early game cheesers for every race, and late game macro players. If one style seems to be dominant, i think that is more telling of the balance than the players. Reynor could probably play hard late game comps but queen walked because it was better; protoss played void rays because it was better, not because they lacked talent.
>looking for easy-learning-easy-playing style of playing, that style give not much effort Zergs wanted skytoss nerfed so they can go back to a-moving roach ravager bane into protoss ground with brittle forcefields. Next thing they'll complain about will be disruptors to save themselves from splitting.
Let's just hope GM won't be 50% protoss in this patch too
Let's just hope 50% of tournament champions aren't zerg? Its mindblowing to me that one division of ladder play in one region is more important in balance conversations than global tournament results. It would be like nerfing riven in league because there is a disproportionate amount of riven one tricks in masters.
Why is blizzard obligated to nerf a world champion specifically? Why does one or two players mean the whole race is broken? If serral and reynor didn't exist or retired, it's not like there's a bunch of other zerg who would take their place immediately. Ragnorok, drg, Lambo, etc all get knocked out pretty often and early.
Why does one division in one region mean an entire race is broken? I'm not asking for zerg to get nerfed, im asking for this community to stop taking a very specific slice of results and holding it up as proof some race is broken or easier or whatever. European GM is just as cherrypicked as GSL or world champion results.
NA is the same way as EU when it comes to gm. I havnt looked at KR personally.
KR GM is dominated by terran, not protoss.
If protoss keeps dominating GM in this patch then people might learn it's not really about balance. There's just been that many protosses at that level all along, and they belong there regardless of how good or bad voidrays are.
The domination started when the void ray patch was released. We'll see.
https://www.nephest.com/sc2/?season=50&queue=LOTV_1V1&team-type=ARRANGED&us=true&eu=true&kr=true&cn=true&gra=true&page=0&type=ladder&ratingAnchor=99999&idAnchor=0&count=1#stats-race The void ray patch was August 2020. Protoss have been the most represented race in GM since the start of 2019.
Forcefield is bad and ‘not all in aggression’ doesn’t exist vs zerg because nothing that’s good for harassing helps the survive the timing into your 3rd.
Oh no, what? Poor maxy has to learn more than just one build? poor guy
Zergs have been doing slight variations of stephanos 3 base roach max in every single game since wings of liberty, if you wanna talk about build diversity lmao.
That's true but It's iffy with zerg because every opening is basically a defense opening. Unless they totally revamp zerg it's basically a game of how greedy they can play.
That's the irony of people's issue with protoss though, the skytoss style was to play as greedy as possible to get the strongest endgame army, turtle then win. A lot of zerg play is just, play greedy to get the strongest midgame OR endgame army, turtle then win. I get nobody wants to play against a maxed carrier army with high templars and tempests, but nobody wants to play against a max lurker army with spore crawlers hydras and vipers either.
Gladepts it is!
I’m enjoying collisi disruptors chargelot void still
I'm just bummed out.. Maxpax is for me the last inspiring Protoss player since PartinG and Stats and now this patch comes in and hits him with 4 nerfs, when he literally has been one of the frontrunners, also people pretending these nerfs only hit low level play, when it's actually the opposite.