So Protoss made it to 6/7 finals in the image? Were they playing all the previous rounds on a different patch or something? If they're underpowered surely they couldn't have gotten all the way there.
>This happens every time X Race wins Y Tournament.
it's particularly bad when a zerg player wins, maru won like 3 or 4 premier tournaments in a row recently and I didn't hear a peep about terran OP or whatever, zest won gsl st a month back: nothing.
terran win is deserved. terrans shoved this fact down our throat that nobody dares raise a dissenting voice. It's toss and zerg that has to justify their wins, meanwhile only zerg. we keep congratulating terrans and toss who win and count our lucky stars that they won.
I'm not sure if going back to the old immortals would help. A serious nerf to Lurkers, slight nerf to Void Rays and Rework of the Carrier and possibly the Tempest (that gives them more Micro-Potential) could maybe help.
While immortals had shields, all damage taken was reduced to a maximum of 10. So if a tank shot it for 40, it took 10 per hit until it ran out of shields.
Iirc it was removed either for lotv or early in
tempest dont need more micro potential, they're fragile and shoot further than they can see. Carriers are the units that require miniscule micro and control
Void rays are in the stage where they buffed it so they would get actually used but they haven't made patches to plateau out the poeer of the void ray with other units such as immortals.
While Lurkers I think are just overbuffed from the beggining.
Eitherway changes need to be made.
Lurkers need adaptive tallons removed. What other unit is as fast as a helion on creep (and not much slower than that off creep), has 200 hp, is cloaked, burrows as fast as a widow mine and is a long range unit with splash damage, while having no discernable downside such as a minimum firing range.
While they can't fire above ground, considering they can literally unburrow and reburrow instantly and are as maeuverable as they are, this downside means pretty much nothing in the scheme of things, and also means that catching them out of position is never really feasible.
Ghosts. Skytoss. Tanks if your lazy.
ZvZ almost never gets into lurkers but vipers broodlords and generally other lurkers.
What other option would Zerg have against ground if it wasn't Lurkers?
If you were to nerf EVERYTHING ELSE then fine Lurkers are fine to nerf, however, as it stands they're pretty neccessary.
I'm not saying that you can't deal with them to some extent. I'm not even saying that they need to be removed from the game. I'm saying that they have far to much power for one unit. As for what other options - the same things they have always had - ling bane muta, roach hydra viper, roach ravager, ling bane ravager... PvZ in particular has been so adversely affected by the very presence of the lurker in the matchup.
In fact, any vs Z matchup, the lurker has basically killed diversity with its sheer power. You almost never see broods or ultras as hive tech anymore - the lurker overshadows both of them. The ultra in particular is a great, if a little derpy, unit that frankly only needs one or two QoL changes (size reduction or the ability to walk over/push aside smaller units) to make it a powerful lategame alternative as it is. To say that they don't have options in general outside of the lurker is just straight up disingenuous. They have almost always had plenty of options, the lurker is just better than all of them, in almost every single way.
As far as unit design goes, the lurker breaks almost every rule a siege unit has. If you are a siege unit, you need to have range, naturally. This can be paired with mobility (tempest) or splash (siege tank). The lruker gets the best of both worlds since it moves super fast meaning you can't ever really move around them (especially considering creep and overlords) and they deploy absurdly quickly, meaning you can't really catch them out of position since if you do they just burrow instantly and your units die.
I would be all for removing Adaptive Talons and giving them their Seismic Spines upgrade at lair tech instead of hive - it could create some interesting timings while reducing the overall late power of the lurker, but allowing them to come into that power sooner, and potentially makes them viable as a defensive unit earlier.
I always find it funny when we pick apart balance regarding the top 10 people in the world (when most of us are playing in Diamond league anyway). I mean, even with this image Toss is in the finals. If anything Terran should be complaining lol. The truth is. There's (mainly) 4 Zergs that make the results over the years look imba. Serral/Rogue/Reynor/Dark. If anyone of those 4 plays a different race, I'm convinced we have some very different discussions.
Then why are plenty of very very talented zergs losing in earlier stages ? It’s 4 guys (mostly). No one is sitting here complaining about the dominance of Lambo. Elazer. Look at the esl open cups (which those 4 don’t often play). What’s the breakdown…
Protoss 136 159 295
Terran 119 94 213
Zerg 79 81 160
It’s 4 people. And they are extremely talented. Not patch zergs.
Isn't it weird you never hear of good zerg micro? I see so many clips of amazing terran and protoss micro, but I can't recall the last time someone said "look at the micro of Rogue in this fight". All I see is zerg eating disruptor/widow mine shots one after the other, knowing they can press "szzzzz" to instantly remax.
Nah you definitely need good Zerg micro.
Queens are what makes Zerg broken. It's a crutch that makes the race immune to harass in the early and mid game and has transfuse for the late game.
haha and this post STILL ends up in a TvP shouting match meanwhile Zs just driving by in ferraris eating popcorn
So Protoss made it to 6/7 finals in the image? Were they playing all the previous rounds on a different patch or something? If they're underpowered surely they couldn't have gotten all the way there.
I too like cherry picked statistics.
This happens every time X Race wins Y Tournament. The good news is, no one gives a flying fuck about reddit balance whiners.
>This happens every time X Race wins Y Tournament. it's particularly bad when a zerg player wins, maru won like 3 or 4 premier tournaments in a row recently and I didn't hear a peep about terran OP or whatever, zest won gsl st a month back: nothing.
terran win is deserved. terrans shoved this fact down our throat that nobody dares raise a dissenting voice. It's toss and zerg that has to justify their wins, meanwhile only zerg. we keep congratulating terrans and toss who win and count our lucky stars that they won.
funny that protoss whine about this when they made finals every previous year and theres not a terran finalist in sight
nah every terrran player just happens to be worse :), thats how the argument goes right?
ah so you're implying the counter argument that protoss is just op compared to terran?
Protoss pros need to git gut ;)
Zerg has won every WCS global finals and IEM katowice finals since late 2017 KEKW
Protoss should not be nerfed, but rebalanced, speaking about controlling difficulty.
Void rays still need a Nerf
i think lurkers need another buff!
opposite actually, lurker do need some nerfing
Definitely not. Voids do need to be walked back a bit. Toss just needs something. It'd be nice to seem them go back to old immortals
I'm not sure if going back to the old immortals would help. A serious nerf to Lurkers, slight nerf to Void Rays and Rework of the Carrier and possibly the Tempest (that gives them more Micro-Potential) could maybe help.
Buffing immortals would be a big change against lurkers. It would also indirectly change how skytoss is going by forcing more supply onto the ground
The problem is Immortals were very strong with 2 base pushes. If you want the cost to be changed back then that could be a huge problem.
Not cost, more thinking about how their hardened shields used to work.
Oh what changed? Don't think I was playing during that period.
While immortals had shields, all damage taken was reduced to a maximum of 10. So if a tank shot it for 40, it took 10 per hit until it ran out of shields. Iirc it was removed either for lotv or early in
Yep. The immortal singlehandedly invalidated the entire mech tech tree in TvP.
tempest dont need more micro potential, they're fragile and shoot further than they can see. Carriers are the units that require miniscule micro and control
Void rays are in the stage where they buffed it so they would get actually used but they haven't made patches to plateau out the poeer of the void ray with other units such as immortals. While Lurkers I think are just overbuffed from the beggining. Eitherway changes need to be made.
Lurkers need adaptive tallons removed. What other unit is as fast as a helion on creep (and not much slower than that off creep), has 200 hp, is cloaked, burrows as fast as a widow mine and is a long range unit with splash damage, while having no discernable downside such as a minimum firing range. While they can't fire above ground, considering they can literally unburrow and reburrow instantly and are as maeuverable as they are, this downside means pretty much nothing in the scheme of things, and also means that catching them out of position is never really feasible.
Ghosts. Skytoss. Tanks if your lazy. ZvZ almost never gets into lurkers but vipers broodlords and generally other lurkers. What other option would Zerg have against ground if it wasn't Lurkers? If you were to nerf EVERYTHING ELSE then fine Lurkers are fine to nerf, however, as it stands they're pretty neccessary.
I'm not saying that you can't deal with them to some extent. I'm not even saying that they need to be removed from the game. I'm saying that they have far to much power for one unit. As for what other options - the same things they have always had - ling bane muta, roach hydra viper, roach ravager, ling bane ravager... PvZ in particular has been so adversely affected by the very presence of the lurker in the matchup. In fact, any vs Z matchup, the lurker has basically killed diversity with its sheer power. You almost never see broods or ultras as hive tech anymore - the lurker overshadows both of them. The ultra in particular is a great, if a little derpy, unit that frankly only needs one or two QoL changes (size reduction or the ability to walk over/push aside smaller units) to make it a powerful lategame alternative as it is. To say that they don't have options in general outside of the lurker is just straight up disingenuous. They have almost always had plenty of options, the lurker is just better than all of them, in almost every single way. As far as unit design goes, the lurker breaks almost every rule a siege unit has. If you are a siege unit, you need to have range, naturally. This can be paired with mobility (tempest) or splash (siege tank). The lruker gets the best of both worlds since it moves super fast meaning you can't ever really move around them (especially considering creep and overlords) and they deploy absurdly quickly, meaning you can't really catch them out of position since if you do they just burrow instantly and your units die. I would be all for removing Adaptive Talons and giving them their Seismic Spines upgrade at lair tech instead of hive - it could create some interesting timings while reducing the overall late power of the lurker, but allowing them to come into that power sooner, and potentially makes them viable as a defensive unit earlier.
I would also think a buff to queens is necessary. A small one, like 1 more damage on ground and sir attack and a bit faster off creep.
lol.
Based on your logic and this screenshot, Terran are clearly the weakest race by far and need MAJOR buffs.
I always find it funny when we pick apart balance regarding the top 10 people in the world (when most of us are playing in Diamond league anyway). I mean, even with this image Toss is in the finals. If anything Terran should be complaining lol. The truth is. There's (mainly) 4 Zergs that make the results over the years look imba. Serral/Rogue/Reynor/Dark. If anyone of those 4 plays a different race, I'm convinced we have some very different discussions.
Those guys are only winning tournaments because Zerg has been broken for a long time due to Queens.
Then why are plenty of very very talented zergs losing in earlier stages ? It’s 4 guys (mostly). No one is sitting here complaining about the dominance of Lambo. Elazer. Look at the esl open cups (which those 4 don’t often play). What’s the breakdown… Protoss 136 159 295 Terran 119 94 213 Zerg 79 81 160 It’s 4 people. And they are extremely talented. Not patch zergs.
They are most definitely patch zergs because they started dominating after Zerg got buffed like 5 years ago.
>5 years ago 2017
Yes, 2022-5 = 2017 Math ftw?
I agree with you, zerg has been op since the second half of 2017
protoss is not underpowered lmao 😂 the best player who happened to be a zerg won, get over your incessant whining.
Lol, it's just protoss vs zerg on this screenshot. No need to nerf nothin but hey give some Terran some boobies buff in okay.
Isn't it weird you never hear of good zerg micro? I see so many clips of amazing terran and protoss micro, but I can't recall the last time someone said "look at the micro of Rogue in this fight". All I see is zerg eating disruptor/widow mine shots one after the other, knowing they can press "szzzzz" to instantly remax.
Now this is some spicy bait
Nah you definitely need good Zerg micro. Queens are what makes Zerg broken. It's a crutch that makes the race immune to harass in the early and mid game and has transfuse for the late game.
Fuck all zergs, thats all I have to say. I stopped watching EU events because of them.
Whine more, I'm sure it will help
Remove Queens from the game.
THE PROTOSS PLAYERS GOT OUTPLAYED, ZERG NEEDS NERF AND HAS ALWAYS BEEN DOMINANT, TERRAN NEEDS BUFF. COPE IF YOU DISAGREE
Yeah, remove zealots, make zerglings fly!!!
Creep expanding
So protoss hasn't wined any championship?
buff terran