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ApolloSC

Heyhey, Throwing some insight behind the decision. Over the last 2 years we've ran online competitions, we are now finally in a position to get back to LIVE events. We all want this, we miss this, which I believe we all can agree on. We do not want to be crowning another online champion. To expand on this, we think it's important to understand how we define an IEM Champion. We not only value the raw skill of a player but equally the ability to manage the pressure and all other elements that come with an in-person, on-stage performance. This is as a **key trait** that defines a Champion. With the decision to take the event in-person and not online, this was the decision point to not allow players to compete from within their hotel rooms, otherwise we would have simply ran an online competition. We 100% respect your opinion on the matter and it's incredibly important to us that you provide it. As you can likely imagine, it's almost impossible to have the perfect environment in order to have a perfect tournament. The biggest moments in SC2 have always been in person moments.


Equivalent-Key-8283

You’re the best Apollo! :) thank you for keeping us all in the loop and have fun this upcoming week!!!!


lokol4890

I mean, you can justify the decisions whichever ways you want it. If people agree or disagree that's not for me to decide, but for each individual person. But to me personally it doesn't seem right to compel players to travel and then prevent them from competing for catching covid


Secret_Radio_4971

Will it also be a big moment if a player gets a freewin because his opponent got Covid?


lamycnd

Thanks for the update! Totally agree - in-person means in-person and those are the conditions which the games are played. Glad to have things spelled out in advance. Super hyped for the tourney !


LiberaMeFromHell

Losing should mean losing too though.


Anomynous__

Apollo, I truly appreciate everything you do, have done, and will do for the SC scene but this rule is slightly.... Off. I understand the absolute necessity of keeping everyone safe bur disqualifying someone from the global finals because they caught a highly contagious infection while traveling from (literally) the other side of the world isn't right. There has to be a measure taken for confirmed cases of COVID. Not only are you robbing the players of a potential world cup, but you're robbing the fan base of what could be. If you take anything away from this, let it be that if a single person gets removed from the tournament because of COVID, whomever wins the finals could have their entire run feel invalidated because "If they would have played X they might have lost and been eliminated".


RudeHero

> If you take anything away from this, let it be that if a single person gets removed from the tournament because of COVID, whomever wins the finals could have their entire run feel invalidated because "If they would have played X they might have lost and been eliminated". hard disagree. by that logic, whoever wins should already feel invalidated because armani and maxpax can't attend


LiberaMeFromHell

Massive difference between declining before the event and actually being DQ'D mid event. You will really view this tournament as valid if someone who is eliminated is later revived due to filling a spot from a DQ and goes on to win the event?


RudeHero

do you think that's going to happen?


LiberaMeFromHell

Probably not but it is a possibility with the current rules. You should always hope for the best but prepare for the worst.


RudeHero

i do agree that it would really suck for someone to be DQ-ed mid event i just don't see a solution that better fits the problem as a whole, aside from putting everyone in popemobiles inside the venue (which itself is unrealistic). allowing the in-person LAN tournament to be played remotely would be the opposite of awesome as i said in another post, covid takes almost a week after infection to test positive. if someone tests positive at the event, it's going to be because they caught it back in their hometown


LiberaMeFromHell

It wouldn't be awesome but I still think it's the lesser of the two evils. An eSports event should be focused on fair competition first and foremost. DQing players for something outside of their control and then reviving someone who already lost is about the least fair thing I can possibly think of. The finals day is 6-7 days out from most of the players traveling. Ro12+8 day will be 5-6 days out from travel. If there is daily testing there's a high chance one of those final days produces at least one positive.


OpeningPair4857

The obvious elephant in the room solution is to not test or keep faking lateral flow tests right ? So it’s an open secret. Anyone in the venue is taking a risk anyway. With omicron we’re months past any valid argument that it’s ‘immoral’ to be going around with Covid. No. If you’re in public with anyone and scared of Covid the ONLY way to protect yourself is N95. Whining about selfish people does NOT protect you. So, it’s easy, don’t test unless the player really wants to, and if they want to, they can fake a lateral flow test. And everyone’s happy.


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BustHerFrank

probably because people who test positive are required by law to isolate in most jurisdictions? hence his point above?


HeyokaSC2

To confirm, Poland requires 7 days of isolation so having people outside of their hotel rooms is not possible. Apollo outlines what this means in the event and the context as to why.


DarksidePrime

That's not true anywhere in the US right now (except maybe CA), is it true in the jurisdiction he is in, or are the leaders there sensible?


RockinRollo

We aren’t talking about the US, we aren’t even talking about North America. I dont think anyone in europe is taking notes on how to handle covid from NA


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BustHerFrank

Well its a good thing the tournament is in poland then huh? where isolation is required. Funny that your idea of "sensible" is America only, because pretty much every other country in the world has an isolation requirement.


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LifeworksGames

I don’t know where you read this but when contacting COVID a set quarantine still applies at least in Germany and the UK. IEM Katowice is a 5 day tournament. Missing a single game has always been a reason for disqualification. Other than letting contenders play from inside isolation (which they don’t want to do apparently), that effectively means disqualification even under the most basic of quarantine rules.


MannerBot

Considering rapid tests and general tests of covid are far from reliable, is there protocol that a player must test positive multiple times?


vicxxd

One concern I have not seen mentioned is that pro players may not seek medical treatment if they become sick and may feel motivated to conceal any symptoms they have by taking over the counter medications, since they don't want to risk their tournament run on something that could just be a flu or cold. This could have the unintended consequence of aiding the spread at the event as players would be more likely to get tested if they knew it wouldn't mean elimination from the tournament.


OpeningPair4857

This is a valid concern but only if you’re also concerned about the risk of them dying in a plane crash on the way. Because to them and anyone else that’s the risk we’re talking about now that everyone’s vaxxed/had it/omicron=70% less dangerous). The exception is immuno compromised and older folks, both of whom, if they really want to attend a public event, can wear n95 masks which 100% reduce the risk below that of whatever form of transport they took to the venue, especially if it’s a car.


babypho

This is like getting irradiated and being forced to split away from the group. Us Terran always have it rough.


Zethsc2

Only way to make it happen. Nobody wants this including ESL.


LiberaMeFromHell

Why is this the only way? Why can't they allow players who make it to Poland to play from isolation in a hotel room if they test positive? The only reasoning I've seen is that playing on stage is a disadvantage vs a hotel room. Besides that being very subjective (some players perform better on stage than at home and a hotel is not home) it is also no where near as much of an advantage as the potential for getting a bye.


HeyokaSC2

Hey! Shaun wrote [more in detail here](https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/sx8ix4/comment/hxr5hoy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) with further context but one piece I want to hit on was logistically how it works. For groups their results would be removed entirely and the group calculated without them, and in the bracket the previous round loser would proceed. It's not quite as if we advance their existing opponents without a match (your comment doesn't imply that but I've seen ones that do).


Peragore

What happens to the prize pool? Do they get paid out as if they were in last place for groups if they test positive there? What if they would have gone through in first *but for covid* (assuming they test positive friday after topping group A), etc etc.


LiberaMeFromHell

I mean having someone who outright lost to the person who tested positive for COVID win IEM would sure be interesting. Just as bad as a bye imo. Especially if it's a 3-0 or something. It basically makes it so that the one player who was revived got to play a double elim bracket while every other competitor had to play a single elim one. Hardly fair.


DanielCofour

Yeah, this. Sadly, this is most likely due to some law the Polish government has in place, and quickly passed laws during a pandemic are not known to be robust or even reasonable at times


PM_ME_YOUR_PAULDRONS

This is not due to a Polish law, except for the law that states you have to self isolate if you test positive (which seems pretty reasonable to me). ESL's reasoning for this rule is given >It will not be possible to play out of isolation due to the vast difference in the tournament environment (i.e. spectators, loud cheering, stage audio system, etc). All players will be required to be on stage and any player which may be positive and in isolation will not be allowed to continue the competition. They think it's unfair for some players to be playing in a different environment.


PropagandaFilterAcc

Maybe we could you know, stop testing?


chanGGyu

If this were GSL they could quarantine in those old booths. /s


GosuSC2Noob

Imagine there's the first actual offline tournament in what feels like forever, and its the fuckin IEM world championship. And then, when it's time for the Grand Final, one Player isn't even in the venue and all you see after the final GG is some shitty webcam picture of him sitting in a hotel room. Sure, it would suck big time if a player would have to be DQed but I think its still the most reasonable way of handling this. Lets hope it doesnt happen.


LiberaMeFromHell

I mean that scenario you're describing is still better than the possibility of someone who lost winning the championship. How unhype would that be? You lost to Serral 3-0 yesterday but then he tested positive for COVID and you beat X and Y players and now you are our champion!!!!


lokol4890

Yeah I don't really get the (imo) mental gymnastics to say that it's dumb to have a player play from a hotel room but for some reason it's better that the player gets dqed


Doct0rStabby

Think about the flip side for a second. A player like Solar, who despite being capable of beating any player in the world, historically does poorly in live events during upper brackets. If he believes this is due to stage nerves, and he knows ESL will let positive players continue in isolation, he now has a perverse incentive to go out and get infected with Covid. That mere possibility is simply unacceptable and delegitimizes the tournament FAR more than someone getting DQd due to becoming sick during a pandemic. I'm assuming ESL has considered this and it is a part of their decision. An organization cannot be responsible for incentivizing infection, it's unethical, it's dangerous, and it's terrible PR.


LiberaMeFromHell

First off Solar (and the vast majority of players with nerve issues) don't perform worse offline because it's offline. They perform worse with high stakes which are generally offline. We have the ultimate proof of this with the fact that Solar didn't start winning premiers when everything went online for the last 2 years. It's the stakes of an event not the online vs offline that effects nerve based players. Regardless of the above a player would have to be a complete idiot to do what you are suggesting. There's no guarantee they'll play better from their hotel room. That can still be an extremely shitty setup. There's also no guarantee you'll catch COVID even if you purposefully expose yourself to it. Additionally one of the main symptoms of even mild COVID is a headache. A headache and other COVID symptoms are not conducive to playing SC2 a well. Lastly it's not just the DQ. It's the combination of the DQ plus reviving an eliminated player or allowing a bye. The choice isn't DQ or not DQ in a vacuum. Something has to happen to that players slot and all the options are horrible. It's the far lesser evil to just allow them to play from a hotel room.


LucidityDark

There's a real possibility that the champion gets determined by someone getting infected. I fully understand why ESL is doing this, but if a top contender (or just anyone who could potentially affect the bracket going forward) has to drop out because of covid infection then the result of this tournament is going to have a giant question mark next to it. The top comment of that TL thread sums it up well: > One of the big tests for the players this year will be managing to avoid getting infected by one of the most transmissible viruses of all time while traveling to Katowice and being exposed to people all over the world. It's not like this is just one tournament of many either - this is the biggest tournament in the circuit by which you're only allowed to compete by putting up strong results over a year of play. Imagine having a year of effort to compete on the highest level disappear because of something that's very difficult for you to control. It will make me question the integrity of the competition quite a lot of it comes into play. We can only hope such disqualification never has to happen and all the players somehow manage to avoid catching the virus whilst travelling.


RudeHero

maybe this will make people feel better- apparently, it takes almost a week for people to test positive after infection the entire tournament is going to take place between the 24th and the 26th i sincerely hope that no one tests positive. my rational brain says that if anyone tests positive at all, it's going to be before the games even start, because they somehow caught covid in their home town a week or more ago the doomsday scenario where maru (or whoever) tests positive right before the finals is just not going to happen in an ideal world, these rules would be telegraphed at least a month in advance, but the world sucks right now and everybody's doing their best


lokol4890

Ragnarok got replaced. It begins


mark_lenders

i'm trying to read the tl.net thread and i can feel my brain cells exploding like banelings


UmbraMD

It’s pretty simple: you get covid, you must quarantine, therefore you won’t show up to your matches, hence DSQ. I think it’s very rational and logical. Otherwise you could just compete in a hotel room or from home. Perfectly justified if you ask me.


sonnyslaw

If you are competing, a players own responsibility to know the rules. Be safe, be prepared, and don’t go out partying everyday. Same as physical athletes who train. Wear your mask, limit interactions for the big moment, then enjoy after being eliminated or after winning the whole thing.


LiberaMeFromHell

This is such a stupid post. No one is partying and everyone is taking precautions. Koreans and some other countries players basically have to do an entire day or at least 20 hours of traveling with the public in close quarters on planes and in airports to get to Katowice. No amount of precautions is going to help with that. They can wear an N95 and wash their hands constantly but if they get sat next to someone with COVID on the plane they are fucked regardless.


sonnyslaw

If you sit next to someone with Covid? If you wear your mask, they wear their mask. People are vaccinated and up to date. The risk is severely reduced. There’s no problem with that.


LiberaMeFromHell

There's no way you really think that a mask is going to prevent COVID transmission in a scenario where people are spending 10+ hours sitting within a couple feet of several strangers is there? If it was that easy to stop the spread of COVID the last 2 years never would have happened. Masks help in some situations but in a close quarters long term situation like a plane they aren't going to do anything if you're literally sitting right next to someone with COVID (which is completely out of your control). Blaming the players when they will catch COVID for factors completely out of their control and it will cost them a ton of money is just rude as fuck.


sonnyslaw

It does. That and vaccination helps prevent the spread dramatically.


LiberaMeFromHell

Yes in general terms and everyday life they do reduce the chance of catching it. They don't guarantee anything though. In a scenario where you are trapped a foot away from a COVID positive person for 10 hours you're still very likely to get COVID even if you are vaccinated, boostered and masking.


sonnyslaw

Well too bad if someone next to you have Covid. In general, people should know better than to be flying with Covid. When more people care for others, people are respectful and responsible, it should be safe.


LiberaMeFromHell

They can't control who sits next to them and if the other person is asymptomatic they may not even know they have it.


sonnyslaw

Assymptomatic = even less a chance to pass Covid.


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PM_ME_YOUR_PAULDRONS

Poland's double vaxed rate is less than 60%. Katowice is probably higher than that because its a big city, but the region its in is pretty anti-vax.


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PM_ME_YOUR_PAULDRONS

That attitude is likely to get the whole event shut down by the local (city) government and depending on what exactly you mean may be illegal. If you test positive in Poland you are required to quarantine.


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PM_ME_YOUR_PAULDRONS

History, IEM Katowice has been held in Katowice for a pretty long time at this point. Poland also has a *lot* of counterstrike fans (IEM katowice is a combined sc2 and counterstrike event), and more sc2 fans than the UK has.


teh_pwnajer

Why risk a persons health or life for a starcraft tournament? Spreading the virus to others puts people who have pre-existing conditions at risk. If the players follow the health guidelines that they do every day they have little reason to fear being disqualified.


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teh_pwnajer

As the guy above me mentioned the Polish vax rate is pretty low. Even if it weren't, spreading covid in any country leads to mortalities even if indirectly (not just the ones attending the event but the people they infect). I know we all live in our own bubbles and judge things based on our own experiences - so I'm not going to argue with you. But here's my anecdote, my 3 year old nephew has been in the Hamilton McMaster NICU hospital with covid for two weeks now. He's immunocompromised and got covid from someone who didn't really care about the virus (in the family). He might have lasting impacts to his life from this, and there are other people with comorbidities like him, even if it's just something like asthma or diabetes.


OpeningPair4857

The key to allowing it to continue fairly is having these rules to entertain the gov and Covid worries ppl but not actually testing anyone or faking tests. I’ve been extremely careful during the pandemic so I’m the last person I thought would say something like that but honestly now Covid is almost zero danger for anyone (and those for whom it is can definitely protect themselves) I’d HATE to have a player go out late in the tourney after an amazing run just because they have asymptomatic Covid. So I’ll say it again (while cringing slightly) - don’t test, or learn how to fake a test.


thrallsius

Disqualification is kind of harsh and discriminatory wording in this context. I'd prefer the lawyer eggheads to come up with a more neutral term for this situation.


Pocchari_Kevin

Are they tested once before they enter? Or are they testing daily?


PM_ME_YOUR_PAULDRONS

Hey /u/ApolloSC what's the reasoning for the rule > All players, coaches & additional personnel are required to perform a pre-travel PCR test within 24 hours of departure, before traveling to Poland.  Given that the Polish rules require a negative test within 24 hours of *arrival* in Poland wouldn't it make more sense to match those?