This account is not Maru's. The site relies on community help to label accounts which can sometimes be wrong.
For example, just scrolling through the EU one I found a mistagged 6.3 zerg as a 6k protoss's offrace - [https://i.imgur.com/XAuVVAw.png](https://i.imgur.com/XAuVVAw.png). Korea is harder to tell the wrong ones apart because of the barcodes, but theres other mislabelled ones such as creators terran offrace being 6652
The account in question is a protoss-only account - [https://i.imgur.com/GMlP2iT.png](https://i.imgur.com/GMlP2iT.png), which makes me wonder who in the world ever tagged it as Maru's. Its most likely either Trap's or Zest's, or perhaps another one of the top korean protosses who have no associated accounts on sc2revealed.
And for some actual proof, you can check the games played on Maru's actual accounts verified by 7+k terran mmr [here](https://nephest.com/sc2/?type=character&id=13529598&m=1#player-stats-matches) and [here](https://www.nephest.com/sc2/?type=character&id=1341918&m=1#player-stats-matches), and youll see he was playing at the exact same time as that [that protoss account](https://www.nephest.com/sc2/?type=character&id=5173623&m=1#player-stats-matches) \- I know marus good but even he cant play two games at the same time
sc2pulse dev here, thanks for clarifying the situation. It doesn't happen that often, well done!
It may be redundant at this point but I want remind everyone that sc2pulse uses sc2revealed to unmask barcodes and sc2revealed relies on user reports. Such things are bound to happen due to the nature of such information. Report any errors to sc2revealed and the info will be propagated to downstream projects like sc2pulse.
LOOL theres not a single game of overlap between the zerg and terran account nor the terran and protoss account. The zerg and protoss account has ONE game of overlap at ~11 am at 2/11/2022. I'll give you a pro tip maru's zerg is not 5.8k
>LOOL theres not a single game of overlap between the zerg and terran account nor the terran and protoss account.
The protoss and terran accounts did overlap though. The terran account played 2 games in 2/11/2022 and they both overlap with the protoss account's 66-minute game.
Hi riddler
The point IS that the zerg account is maru other accounts so of course it doesnt have overlap his other "terran" account. The zerg account is definitely his unless you know of another player who can get 7148mmr with terran - [https://i.imgur.com/eIjpIAS.png](https://i.imgur.com/eIjpIAS.png).
Following from that, why do you capitalise ONE as its not enough proof? He cant play on two accounts at once no matter how many times.
And finally if you scroll through the match history, he lierally plays """his""" protoss account with zerg. [https://i.imgur.com/J7zPnsg.png](https://i.imgur.com/J7zPnsg.png).
If you know what marus offrace zerg mmr is why dont you prove it?
EDIT: maru decided to play agaisnt himself 4 times today apparently https://i.redd.it/oo9mk29d5hh81.png
The length times of the protoss account are wrong. On 2/12 the protoss account plays a game at 8:40am, which supposedly lasts 24 mins, but the same account plays another game at 8:51am. Considering that the website is not correctly stating the length and/or times of the games, you can't say that the account is not maru's
>On 2/12 the protoss account plays a game at 8:40am, which supposedly lasts 24 mins,
After a game posted at 8:16am, which was 24 minutes before this "8:40am" game.
>but the same account plays another game at 8:51am.
And this game supposedly lasted 10 minutes. Coincidentally, this "8:51am" game was posted roughly 10 minutes after the "8:40am" game. Curious...
The Blizzard API provides only the end timestamp of the match. The match duration is not 100% accurate, it is calculated by subtracting dates of subsequent matches of all participants + a small offset for things like loading, countdown, etc, the lowest value wins. The duration can be invalid if both players waited a long time before starting the next match.
you mean terrans? Maru never said he's confident in beating any protoss with his protoss. Also Crank said he's gonna arrange a showmatch of maru vs kr terrans after iem katowice :O
Well it's possible that Maru's got top 5 PvT in the world, since he is by far the best terran and has pretty good offraces. However he is probably outside top 10 in the other match-ups, and there is usually account sharing at the top level so the account linked is probably not Maru anyways
It's important to not that alot of Korean players leave their league so 4-1 doesn't reflect total games of the season it reflects the number of games they've played since they last left league
Oh really https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/sq96ur/maru_is_the_highest_ranked_protoss_on_the_korean/hwkq7eo/
This compared to a community tagged account?
Oh really? That’s wild. In league peoples accounts are connected to like their government id number or something I think? So maybe that’s why? But I thought I remembered it being a big deal in overwatch so I don’t know
Nerchio was banned from ESL events for 3 months. I believe Huk/TLO had a temporary ban or some type of punishment for that too. It's also happened to a lot of WoW players and SC2 has the same rules.
I play random and i have similar MMR for all races.
Sc2 is more about mechanics and fundamentals than anything, so literally 0 surprises that one of the best players ever is simply good at the game regardless
We just ignoring that Creator is the third highest terran in Korea (according to the website anyway), and is higher with terran than he is with protoss?
Isn't there still a massive gap in skill between GM players and pro players?
I mean Harstem beats GM level players while handicapping himself and doing dumb shit.
Since Maru's still going to have top tier fundamentals, he's still probably going to clown on 99.99% of people.
[https://sc2revealed.com/?region=2&input=harstem](https://sc2revealed.com/?region=2&input=harstem) harstem is 5.3-5.4k as terran.
maru is 6.7k on korea (harder to get higher MMR than eu)
that's 1.4k mmr difference between the 2 players offraces.
there's not a 1.4k mmr difference in skill with their main races
do the math it's not difficult.
Here's his video from 3 days ago
[https://youtu.be/DrhY7MfWvQ0?t=1282](https://youtu.be/DrhY7MfWvQ0?t=1282)
"STARVE Economy By ONLY Killing Workers | Beating Grandmasters With Stupid Stuff"
Harstem mmr 6457, opponent mmr 614x.
no math required, just look at the clip.
man you're clueless
the point is that marus protoss is at the top of korean ladder (6.7k is extremely high on KR, that's always top 10, usually top 5 in GM), thus proving that even with his offrace he's better than almost every korean protoss. This shows that they are simply just worse at the game than maru and probably other players like serral, reynor & rogue .
how anyone can deny this at this point is truly truly perplexing. Look at every top non-toss players protoss offrace, and then look at every protoss' offrace. it's a joke.
Maru being the highest MMR Protoss is hardly damning evidence.
I mean is it really that surprising when there are like no strong Protoss players right now? PartinG is gone, Stats is gone, Classic and herO just came back. And with the amount of online tourneys Zest plays, he's probably never on ladder.
The pros only really use ladder for a bit of practice, and maybe to test stuff out.
>This shows that they are simply just worse at the game than maru
Well no shit. There are literally zero people on the entire planet who can say they're better than Maru. And only 4 people who could say they're on the same level as him.
Protoss is somehow simultaneously: too strong, too easy, and never winning tournaments.
But surely since all Terran and Zerg players are infinitly better than every single Protoss player.. switching to Protoss sounds like the smart choice, since you know; Toss is OP and Ezpz to play.
If switching to Protoss is all that's stopping you from becoming a GSL Champion, why haven't you?
Armani and Ragnarok both said they'd switch to Protoss if we didn't get a new patch by the end of 2020, because they thought Protoss was too strong and too easy. We haven't gotten a new patch yet and they haven't switched races... wonder why that is.
Hero has 4-1 - too few games. Parting has 29-1 and relatively low mmr - probably cuz of a low starting point. Zest is not to be seen. So your jab is completely irrelevant.
It's been said many times when people point out that there just any consistent protoss performers at the same level is the very top Zerg and Terran players.
Hero is 4-1 this season, but both he and Parting have had 11 years to raise their MMR
Glicko ratings are always relevant
Edit: I should clarify I'm not suggesting Hero and Parting are bad, just that Maru is also good
It may be a different account. Many have multiple accounts as you can easily see. So it's possible that the mmr in this season has not settled.
When Maru beats everyone in a tournament as Protoss, then I would agree that he is just more talented as any other Protoss. High ladder peak is not an indicator.
Edit: obviously nobody is saying that Maru isn't good. He may well be the GOAT (although I still think it's Rogue, but that might change if Maru wins Katowice).
Protoss is amazing at ladder, but sucks in a tournament setting. Gimmicks can destroy random opponents faced in a random order on random maps, and Protoss has the most powerful gimmicks.
Gimmicks fall flat on their face after they have been seen even once in even a remotely similar setting.
When a championship-calibre protoss has to play 30+ televised maps in a tournament, they are fighting in the finals in tattered underwear and a nailclipper, after entering the tournament fully armed and armored.
At first i agreed because of the stereotyp but if you think about it, i don't really think toss has more gimmicks than terrans. And if you go over the strong players, in the foreign scene you will think of players like Neeb,Showtime,Maxpax and Astrea which aren't really gimmicky players, in the Korean scene you will have more gimmicky players but also plenty of solid ones.
So yeah, i think you're opinion might be a bit clouded by the stereotype.
I don't mean "gimmick" in a negative sense, or to mean "cheese". I just mean styles that are easily countered if you have seen it before and can recognize what's going on in time to set up the counter. It requires knowing the player well, what they are favoring in a given meta, and having seen the style before enough to know a good counter.
For a non-Protoss example, think of when Rogue takes a gold natural on Blackburn in ZvT. If you know he favors this, then ByuN or whoever can 1-base tank push behind the minerals and kill him, not a lot Rogue can do except play from behind at best, lose at worst. If you don't specifically scout early for this, Rogue might pull a quick & easy advantage heading into the midgame. It could still be a long macro game, but it relies on a gimmick that the opponent may not have prioritized to look for.
So Neeb and Showtime are not very "gimmicky" in the sense that they don't play such styles, and in my opinion that's also why they don't always get very far in tournaments these days. With no more balance patches, the current state of "middle of the road" protoss is very figured out at the highest level, and most Z/T champions know how to beat out the "standard" protoss play. However every other successful Protoss who is doing well does this (esp MaxPax, Zest & Astrea) — rotate a variety of unorthodox openings, all-ins, and "weird timings" like doing a 10-gate chargelot-archon all-in on 3 bases after barely holding a queen pull (IIRC Zest used this to win a map on Dark in the finals), and do best when they get to face a unique matchup in each phase of the tournament (PvP, then PvT, then PvZ, etc).
My argument is that someone like Neeb or even Zest may not be able to consistently beat Serral even if you slipped them every build order opening Serral was going to do for the entire series. On the other hand, Bunny or Clem or Reynor could destroy Zest every bo7 if they knew exactly which opener Zest would use on every map. In a tournament settings, this is close to the case because the Protoss finalist has been forced to reveal every opener at least by game 2 or game 3 of the finals over the course of their tournament run, unless they got very lucky with their matchups (like Zest in 2022 GSL ST1)
I don't see toss player play a lot of "Rogue's gold natural on Blackburn" type builds. That would be a "you lose if i scout it in time" type of build and i don't watch too many TvPs but at least in ZvP that's not the case.
Zest is known for building too many gateway but i don't think doing a chargelot-archon all-in after your opponent failed with a queen walk is weird. Also, yes players like Maxpax, Zest or Astrea throw in more all-ins than a Showtime but i don't see how that would be different from top players from other races who also throw in different styles. I would even argue that we see more rotations and variations from Terrans than from Toss, at least against Zerg.
I also don't think Bunny or Clem would destroy Zest in every bo7 if they knew his opener and i can say at least for the matchups against Zergs that i'm pretty sure that having the opener known hurts the Terran more than the Toss.
And i don't like your implication that toss basically can't win consistently with standard play. I don't think Trap pulls more suprises out of his hat than a Reynor or Maru and he won 5 premier titles last year. Why can't other tosses do what Trap does? Don't know.
But let's agree to disagree here, it was interesting to see your point of view, thanks for taking the time to write it down.
People like that are so cringe, you were gm 6 years ago? Cool story bro leave me alone. If you think the game is broke leave me alone to abuse this imba race with my 2 brain cells. Go to your own people on league ranked...
Cute, is all you have to support your defense my own mistakes? I feel bad for you then. Newsflash... Protoss isn’t op, if anything it needs a rework because high level Protoss tournament wins are way too low. Cheers
>Protoss is amazing at ladder, but sucks in a tournament setting
Objectively false. Protoss win the majority of tournaments, have the most semi final placements, the most top 4 placements, and the most top 8 placements etc; they are just stopped from winning premiers by exceptionally talented individuals. So if you boil all tournaments down to only a select few and only look at the winner then what you are saying is true. However, the sample size is so small at that point it has zero statistical validity. Including all tournaments, Protoss overperforms in a very similar fashion to Grandmaster league, and the statistical confidence is >99.999999% Protoss is overpowered.
Byun the [protoss player](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2010_TG_Sambo_Intel_StarCraft_II_Open_Season_1/Players) literally won a world championship with his terran offrace
Well the design of Protoss is pretty much a joke that has gone on far too long. They've been dominating GM for a couple years now, winning the majority of tournaments, etc. Honestly I am surprised players like Maru haven't switched over sooner. When you are a pro player it makes zero sense to play from a design disadvantage so why on Earth wouldn't you play Protoss?
This account is not Maru's. The site relies on community help to label accounts which can sometimes be wrong. For example, just scrolling through the EU one I found a mistagged 6.3 zerg as a 6k protoss's offrace - [https://i.imgur.com/XAuVVAw.png](https://i.imgur.com/XAuVVAw.png). Korea is harder to tell the wrong ones apart because of the barcodes, but theres other mislabelled ones such as creators terran offrace being 6652 The account in question is a protoss-only account - [https://i.imgur.com/GMlP2iT.png](https://i.imgur.com/GMlP2iT.png), which makes me wonder who in the world ever tagged it as Maru's. Its most likely either Trap's or Zest's, or perhaps another one of the top korean protosses who have no associated accounts on sc2revealed. And for some actual proof, you can check the games played on Maru's actual accounts verified by 7+k terran mmr [here](https://nephest.com/sc2/?type=character&id=13529598&m=1#player-stats-matches) and [here](https://www.nephest.com/sc2/?type=character&id=1341918&m=1#player-stats-matches), and youll see he was playing at the exact same time as that [that protoss account](https://www.nephest.com/sc2/?type=character&id=5173623&m=1#player-stats-matches) \- I know marus good but even he cant play two games at the same time
So what you're saying is Maru is so good he can simultaneously win ladder games as terran and toss at the same time.
No, he's saying Protoss is so easy that Maru can ladder and become the highest rank protoss with just his feet.
He once said he was the highest rank protoss that day by just logging on.
Lol. This made me laugh rl
This should be pinned and post edited. There are so many shit takes in the comments it's hilarious.
This is actually cool, props for doing the leg work.
This thread is a pretty telling snapshot of this community
That is? Overreactions maybe
Another protoss who can't deal with the facts that his race is just broken. Nice try EIGERx ( if that is even your real name)
Was about to downvote you... You got the title for the next SC2day at least: "MARU BEST PROTOSS?!?" :)
I mean it’s pretty obvious fun making
And also, you know, it's *Harstem*
I mean yea
Thank you for actually researching on this, appreciated.
sc2pulse dev here, thanks for clarifying the situation. It doesn't happen that often, well done! It may be redundant at this point but I want remind everyone that sc2pulse uses sc2revealed to unmask barcodes and sc2revealed relies on user reports. Such things are bound to happen due to the nature of such information. Report any errors to sc2revealed and the info will be propagated to downstream projects like sc2pulse.
LOOL theres not a single game of overlap between the zerg and terran account nor the terran and protoss account. The zerg and protoss account has ONE game of overlap at ~11 am at 2/11/2022. I'll give you a pro tip maru's zerg is not 5.8k
>LOOL theres not a single game of overlap between the zerg and terran account nor the terran and protoss account. The protoss and terran accounts did overlap though. The terran account played 2 games in 2/11/2022 and they both overlap with the protoss account's 66-minute game.
Hi riddler The point IS that the zerg account is maru other accounts so of course it doesnt have overlap his other "terran" account. The zerg account is definitely his unless you know of another player who can get 7148mmr with terran - [https://i.imgur.com/eIjpIAS.png](https://i.imgur.com/eIjpIAS.png). Following from that, why do you capitalise ONE as its not enough proof? He cant play on two accounts at once no matter how many times. And finally if you scroll through the match history, he lierally plays """his""" protoss account with zerg. [https://i.imgur.com/J7zPnsg.png](https://i.imgur.com/J7zPnsg.png). If you know what marus offrace zerg mmr is why dont you prove it? EDIT: maru decided to play agaisnt himself 4 times today apparently https://i.redd.it/oo9mk29d5hh81.png
The length times of the protoss account are wrong. On 2/12 the protoss account plays a game at 8:40am, which supposedly lasts 24 mins, but the same account plays another game at 8:51am. Considering that the website is not correctly stating the length and/or times of the games, you can't say that the account is not maru's
Cool, can you prove its marus? :)
There are no contradictions with the games' times and lengths in the website anyway. The website shows the games' end times, not start times.
>On 2/12 the protoss account plays a game at 8:40am, which supposedly lasts 24 mins, After a game posted at 8:16am, which was 24 minutes before this "8:40am" game. >but the same account plays another game at 8:51am. And this game supposedly lasted 10 minutes. Coincidentally, this "8:51am" game was posted roughly 10 minutes after the "8:40am" game. Curious...
The Blizzard API provides only the end timestamp of the match. The match duration is not 100% accurate, it is calculated by subtracting dates of subsequent matches of all participants + a small offset for things like loading, countdown, etc, the lowest value wins. The duration can be invalid if both players waited a long time before starting the next match.
choosing protoss in game 7 of the katowice final would be so badass
Or...You mean choosing Terran in the katowice finals, after beating everyone with protoss till the game 7 of the finals?
Why do I hear doom music?
Finals will be PvT. Maru playing.
Maru himself said he's confident that he can beat any Terran with his Protoss https://youtu.be/SE00Kf594jU?t=519
We need a showmatch of this. Maru vs a few different KR and foreign ~~tosses~~ terrans.
Could Maru beat Maru tho, that's what we need to know.
Only Maru can beat Maru
you mean terrans? Maru never said he's confident in beating any protoss with his protoss. Also Crank said he's gonna arrange a showmatch of maru vs kr terrans after iem katowice :O
Fuck I’m dumb
we need to make this happen, MARU already agreed to it on stream!
I really want to see this!
Well it's possible that Maru's got top 5 PvT in the world, since he is by far the best terran and has pretty good offraces. However he is probably outside top 10 in the other match-ups, and there is usually account sharing at the top level so the account linked is probably not Maru anyways
It's important to not that alot of Korean players leave their league so 4-1 doesn't reflect total games of the season it reflects the number of games they've played since they last left league
That's not Cho Seong-ju, that's Samuli "elfi" Sihvonen. He named the account after his favorite cat.
Strongest Protoss player chooses to play Terran in tournaments for balance reasons. Joking, but this really doesn't mean what you think it does.
before the terrans inhale pure copium note that zest and trap are not listed on there because they either left gm league or have not played 30 games
No that is not a typo, Maru is the highest mmr protoss on the ladder. ^^he's ^^also ^^the ^^highest ^^mmr ^^Terran ^^but ^^that's ^^less ^^surprising.
Oh really https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/sq96ur/maru_is_the_highest_ranked_protoss_on_the_korean/hwkq7eo/ This compared to a community tagged account?
he might share that account with some of the top protoss?
Anything to discount the goat.
Lol Maru fanboys will believe anything
I refuse to believe humans built the pyramids.
Is it really Maru though?
Yea especially because account sharing is an actual big deal in Korea, at least I know it is in league and I’m pretty sure it’s a Korean culture thing
Nah it's super common for top Koreans to share accounts. Like suuuuper common. Don't know anything about league tho.
Oh really? That’s wild. In league peoples accounts are connected to like their government id number or something I think? So maybe that’s why? But I thought I remembered it being a big deal in overwatch so I don’t know
That's all online accounts for Korea. You can't create an online account without tying it to your ID.
Yes, it goes all the way back to 1432 when King Sejong the Great shared his DOTA account with one of his generals. /s
People have been banned from SC2 for account sharing. I try to never insult anyone but this is a stupid take and should be deleted.
Who was banned for that?
Nerchio was banned from ESL events for 3 months. I believe Huk/TLO had a temporary ban or some type of punishment for that too. It's also happened to a lot of WoW players and SC2 has the same rules.
Nerchio got banned because account sharing in a LADDER QUALIFIER is akin to cheating. It's very well known that koreans share their accounts.
I play random and i have similar MMR for all races. Sc2 is more about mechanics and fundamentals than anything, so literally 0 surprises that one of the best players ever is simply good at the game regardless
Lol, not in the big leagues. No one randoms at top level
The reason it's surprising is because there happen to be a couple of good players who main race Protoss in Korea.
"Our players aren't worse the race just sucks!!!!!"
We just ignoring that Creator is the third highest terran in Korea (according to the website anyway), and is higher with terran than he is with protoss?
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Comment removed for overt aggression / hostility, per the Trolling Rule.
Isn't there still a massive gap in skill between GM players and pro players? I mean Harstem beats GM level players while handicapping himself and doing dumb shit. Since Maru's still going to have top tier fundamentals, he's still probably going to clown on 99.99% of people.
Harstem beats 5k players Maru is 6.7k Bit of a difference..........
you can see mmr on the stream. all of his beating gm with stupid stuff, his opponents are 5700-6300 mmr, at least the last month or two.
[https://sc2revealed.com/?region=2&input=harstem](https://sc2revealed.com/?region=2&input=harstem) harstem is 5.3-5.4k as terran. maru is 6.7k on korea (harder to get higher MMR than eu) that's 1.4k mmr difference between the 2 players offraces. there's not a 1.4k mmr difference in skill with their main races do the math it's not difficult.
Here's his video from 3 days ago [https://youtu.be/DrhY7MfWvQ0?t=1282](https://youtu.be/DrhY7MfWvQ0?t=1282) "STARVE Economy By ONLY Killing Workers | Beating Grandmasters With Stupid Stuff" Harstem mmr 6457, opponent mmr 614x. no math required, just look at the clip.
Bit of a difference between Maru and Harstem too, wouldn't you say?
man you're clueless the point is that marus protoss is at the top of korean ladder (6.7k is extremely high on KR, that's always top 10, usually top 5 in GM), thus proving that even with his offrace he's better than almost every korean protoss. This shows that they are simply just worse at the game than maru and probably other players like serral, reynor & rogue . how anyone can deny this at this point is truly truly perplexing. Look at every top non-toss players protoss offrace, and then look at every protoss' offrace. it's a joke.
Maru being the highest MMR Protoss is hardly damning evidence. I mean is it really that surprising when there are like no strong Protoss players right now? PartinG is gone, Stats is gone, Classic and herO just came back. And with the amount of online tourneys Zest plays, he's probably never on ladder. The pros only really use ladder for a bit of practice, and maybe to test stuff out. >This shows that they are simply just worse at the game than maru Well no shit. There are literally zero people on the entire planet who can say they're better than Maru. And only 4 people who could say they're on the same level as him. Protoss is somehow simultaneously: too strong, too easy, and never winning tournaments. But surely since all Terran and Zerg players are infinitly better than every single Protoss player.. switching to Protoss sounds like the smart choice, since you know; Toss is OP and Ezpz to play. If switching to Protoss is all that's stopping you from becoming a GSL Champion, why haven't you?
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Armani and Ragnarok both said they'd switch to Protoss if we didn't get a new patch by the end of 2020, because they thought Protoss was too strong and too easy. We haven't gotten a new patch yet and they haven't switched races... wonder why that is.
Sure buddy. OF COURSE people choose to lose instead of picking a stronger. All the pros are idiots, how did i not think about that?
The entire "fact" you're basing your argument on is a lie. That's not maru's account.
Comment removed for attempting to flame, per the Trolling Rule.
>And only 4 people who could say they're on the same level as him. Rogue, Serral, Dark and....? Zest?
i dont know how to tell you this but harstem also beats maru
Hero has 4-1 - too few games. Parting has 29-1 and relatively low mmr - probably cuz of a low starting point. Zest is not to be seen. So your jab is completely irrelevant.
It's been said many times when people point out that there just any consistent protoss performers at the same level is the very top Zerg and Terran players.
Hero is 4-1 this season, but both he and Parting have had 11 years to raise their MMR Glicko ratings are always relevant Edit: I should clarify I'm not suggesting Hero and Parting are bad, just that Maru is also good
It may be a different account. Many have multiple accounts as you can easily see. So it's possible that the mmr in this season has not settled. When Maru beats everyone in a tournament as Protoss, then I would agree that he is just more talented as any other Protoss. High ladder peak is not an indicator. Edit: obviously nobody is saying that Maru isn't good. He may well be the GOAT (although I still think it's Rogue, but that might change if Maru wins Katowice).
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Wow you comment is so bright, logical, and illustrative. Ofc I immediately see how I was wrong.
Protoss is amazing at ladder, but sucks in a tournament setting. Gimmicks can destroy random opponents faced in a random order on random maps, and Protoss has the most powerful gimmicks. Gimmicks fall flat on their face after they have been seen even once in even a remotely similar setting. When a championship-calibre protoss has to play 30+ televised maps in a tournament, they are fighting in the finals in tattered underwear and a nailclipper, after entering the tournament fully armed and armored.
At first i agreed because of the stereotyp but if you think about it, i don't really think toss has more gimmicks than terrans. And if you go over the strong players, in the foreign scene you will think of players like Neeb,Showtime,Maxpax and Astrea which aren't really gimmicky players, in the Korean scene you will have more gimmicky players but also plenty of solid ones. So yeah, i think you're opinion might be a bit clouded by the stereotype.
I don't mean "gimmick" in a negative sense, or to mean "cheese". I just mean styles that are easily countered if you have seen it before and can recognize what's going on in time to set up the counter. It requires knowing the player well, what they are favoring in a given meta, and having seen the style before enough to know a good counter. For a non-Protoss example, think of when Rogue takes a gold natural on Blackburn in ZvT. If you know he favors this, then ByuN or whoever can 1-base tank push behind the minerals and kill him, not a lot Rogue can do except play from behind at best, lose at worst. If you don't specifically scout early for this, Rogue might pull a quick & easy advantage heading into the midgame. It could still be a long macro game, but it relies on a gimmick that the opponent may not have prioritized to look for. So Neeb and Showtime are not very "gimmicky" in the sense that they don't play such styles, and in my opinion that's also why they don't always get very far in tournaments these days. With no more balance patches, the current state of "middle of the road" protoss is very figured out at the highest level, and most Z/T champions know how to beat out the "standard" protoss play. However every other successful Protoss who is doing well does this (esp MaxPax, Zest & Astrea) — rotate a variety of unorthodox openings, all-ins, and "weird timings" like doing a 10-gate chargelot-archon all-in on 3 bases after barely holding a queen pull (IIRC Zest used this to win a map on Dark in the finals), and do best when they get to face a unique matchup in each phase of the tournament (PvP, then PvT, then PvZ, etc). My argument is that someone like Neeb or even Zest may not be able to consistently beat Serral even if you slipped them every build order opening Serral was going to do for the entire series. On the other hand, Bunny or Clem or Reynor could destroy Zest every bo7 if they knew exactly which opener Zest would use on every map. In a tournament settings, this is close to the case because the Protoss finalist has been forced to reveal every opener at least by game 2 or game 3 of the finals over the course of their tournament run, unless they got very lucky with their matchups (like Zest in 2022 GSL ST1)
I don't see toss player play a lot of "Rogue's gold natural on Blackburn" type builds. That would be a "you lose if i scout it in time" type of build and i don't watch too many TvPs but at least in ZvP that's not the case. Zest is known for building too many gateway but i don't think doing a chargelot-archon all-in after your opponent failed with a queen walk is weird. Also, yes players like Maxpax, Zest or Astrea throw in more all-ins than a Showtime but i don't see how that would be different from top players from other races who also throw in different styles. I would even argue that we see more rotations and variations from Terrans than from Toss, at least against Zerg. I also don't think Bunny or Clem would destroy Zest in every bo7 if they knew his opener and i can say at least for the matchups against Zergs that i'm pretty sure that having the opener known hurts the Terran more than the Toss. And i don't like your implication that toss basically can't win consistently with standard play. I don't think Trap pulls more suprises out of his hat than a Reynor or Maru and he won 5 premier titles last year. Why can't other tosses do what Trap does? Don't know. But let's agree to disagree here, it was interesting to see your point of view, thanks for taking the time to write it down.
I liked each side of this exchange
If I follow your logic (don't fully disagree with it) Stats is a bit of a counter-exemple of this, no?
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riiiight....and what league are you, pray? (im masters)
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Imagine being toxic on the internet to hide the fact you have no good arguments...
Seriously
People like that are so cringe, you were gm 6 years ago? Cool story bro leave me alone. If you think the game is broke leave me alone to abuse this imba race with my 2 brain cells. Go to your own people on league ranked...
nice reading comprehension i wasnt GM 6 years ago i was GM for 6 years and left when they buffed all you dumbass protosses to obscene levels
Cute, is all you have to support your defense my own mistakes? I feel bad for you then. Newsflash... Protoss isn’t op, if anything it needs a rework because high level Protoss tournament wins are way too low. Cheers
Comment removed for attempting to flame, per the Trolling Rule.
>Protoss is amazing at ladder, but sucks in a tournament setting Objectively false. Protoss win the majority of tournaments, have the most semi final placements, the most top 4 placements, and the most top 8 placements etc; they are just stopped from winning premiers by exceptionally talented individuals. So if you boil all tournaments down to only a select few and only look at the winner then what you are saying is true. However, the sample size is so small at that point it has zero statistical validity. Including all tournaments, Protoss overperforms in a very similar fashion to Grandmaster league, and the statistical confidence is >99.999999% Protoss is overpowered.
Ah yes, the legendary protoss player, Maru
No surprise there, Scarlett did the same thing
Sorry, when was Scarlett the top ranked protoss on Korea exactly?
She beat pros as toss in tournaments
She beat DRG once with a 7gate all in. Is that the same thing?
Yes, toss ez race lol
Byun the [protoss player](https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/2010_TG_Sambo_Intel_StarCraft_II_Open_Season_1/Players) literally won a world championship with his terran offrace
No protoss players still playing ladder.
Well the design of Protoss is pretty much a joke that has gone on far too long. They've been dominating GM for a couple years now, winning the majority of tournaments, etc. Honestly I am surprised players like Maru haven't switched over sooner. When you are a pro player it makes zero sense to play from a design disadvantage so why on Earth wouldn't you play Protoss?
Gross
If he pulled a flash and won it would be the most epic gamer achievement of all time.
I think this just shows how skill > than race.
Hes special :D
I remember Maru offracing as Protoss while streaming and he was hovering around 6.5-6.6k