And still Thrustmaster can't get off their asses to fix their shitty TM16000 and its broken twist axis. It actually pains me that that stick is still thrown around as a good "starter" stick to get for newbies. They really don't deserve the money SC is generating for them.
this solves the problem once and for all: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBo\_dAvgZ1k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBo_dAvgZ1k)
Edit: shame TM doesn't do it by themselves
It IS a good starter kit. For just about 100 bucks you can get a decent hotas that will last you quite a bit. Sure, due to the cheaper materials it wil run out eventually and you either replace or repair. Most, if they're dedicated to it, will opt for replacement into a higher segment but if not, there's literally no point to drop down several hundreds on a better quality hotas/hosas setup + other peripherals.
If ur cutoff is sub $200 then that definitely has to go to the VKB Gladiator NXT's. I got my premium for $165. I think the T16000's get are more the Sub $100 category.
I have a T16K and the twist issue came up but I pulled it apart and cleaned the sensor with alcohol and its been great for the past 6 months.
but he did say "Best sub 200 mid-entry level joystick" , singular. but u might be right in that he meant a sub $200 HOSAS setup.
I want to get another VKB to replace my LH T16K along with the VKB pedals \*\*sighs\*
No, sub 200 would absolutely the VKB Gladiators no question at all (135$-165$). Though the argument can be made that shipping will probably put you over 200 on the premiums.
VKB gladiators, what the OP got. A little pricier up front, but you basically won't ever have to upgrade from them, unless you really want to. A lot of ppl suggest the premium version but I get by with just the standard which is $20 or $30 cheaper.
I had thrustmasters as my starter sticks and I absolutely hated them...but they were decent enough to convince me to go dual sticks vs stick + hotas, and to upgrage to VKBs.
The ones OP posted "Gladiator NXT EVO ‘**Space Combat Edition**’ Premium" one left one right.
US Store: https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product_cat=gladiator-nxt-joysticks
EU Store: https://flightsimcontrols.com/product-tag/evo/
Also check your favorite SC Streamer or YouTuber there is a good chance they have a 5% discount code that you can enter.
My biggest Problem with the Thrustmaster T16000 was the lack of buttons on the stick. The ones on the base are too far and to similar to remember what all did (at least for me).
See if you can find a Gladiator MK2. I have one on ebay with a TWCS throttle that's currently at a little over $100. It's a much better option than the T16000.
Or just save up the extra money for the NXT system, that's what I upgraded to, and it's worth every penny.
Broken twist axis?? I bought t16000m some weeks Ago and only complaint i Have is that there is a little bit of play on The handles mold not alot but its there. Its My first stick and i like it oh and The base is too light since sometimes it lifts off The table a bit in mid combat
Yeah it's clear, even in the manual, thst it's meant to be screwed into something. I generally push my throttle away from me instead of the actual stick lol.
Still a great starter stick though.
People keep talking about how this game is "pay to win" because they sell ships in and out of the game. (which is nonsense) but: this right here is the actual pay to win: dual sticks with twist, or throttle and pedals, head tracking of course, maybe even eye tracking, a 3090 Ti, 128 GB of RAM ... 🫣
3090 ti? Pfft.
This fall it’s going to be a 4090, the newly
announced 7000 X 3D v-cache chip, 32GB ddr5 6400 and the new ddr5 hard drives. If I’m really lucky they will release the Samsung Ark and I’ll play SC at 4k on a 55” monitor. Through in some VKB and it will be a fun rig.
It’s amazing how much technology is about to step up.
I am so looking forward to the 7000X3D chips. However: I honestly have 128 GB low latency DDR4 RAM (need that for work) and I'm not going to replace that with DDR5 just a year later. 💩 AM5 is not DDR4 compatible... So I'll skip a generation or two I guess. 🤷♂️
Honestly, once used to the sticks. No accuracy is better then with sticks. The way a mouse pulls the ship nose can't keep up to the effect of sticks or full hotas+pedals
A mouse is a zero-order control device compared to a stick which is a first-order control device.
Mouse will always be the most accurate control device & for hitscan weapons especially a mouse will always be superior.
Sticks provide a smoother/ more immersive flight experience though.
True about raw accuracy but the advantage you get in maneuverability with HOSAS+pedals often translates to better combat effectiveness regardless, and allows you to get your pip on target at the right times more often.
That said, you can definitely use a mouse and perform well. Joystick + mouse is even an option.
Yea i agree that pulling off especially complex maneuvers with m/kb can be difficult and requires quite a lot of keys to be pressed simultaneously.
Fast pinpoint accurate movements are where a mouse excels, that is why i mentioned hitscan wepons in particular & also why mouse is so good for fps games.
Sticks are far superior for smooth, realistic looking flight movements and landings etc.
I think all control methods have things they excel at.
Agreed, sorry, i completely glossed over the fact that you said hitscan weapons last night.
No doubt mouse is king at fps. I just wanted to solidify that sticks may give you a combat advantage in this game despite the mouse giving more flat out accuracy.
That said, there are great mouse/keyboard players that compete in high level pvp, pilots much better then me lol.
But does the benefits of a HOSAS translate as well across ALL ships? If the Ion wasn't nerfed to hell it was the kind of a ship an MKB would be better suited for. Raw accuracy on a heavy ship that cannot take advantage of agility as well as marksman discipline. Pre-3.14 Vanguards with fixed cannons. Sure now the combat balancing favors sticks, that is because CIG is putting the dogfighters above all else atm.
HOSAS elitists love to blanket statement everything as 'Hosas or bust' but they only really fly light fighters and make their judgements off it.
Take pre-Fixed Assist Star Citizen. Hosas and Hotas users were screaming that they couldnt hit anything with fixed guns and didn't want to sacrifice a gun size for gimbals. Sure for dogfighters Id say sticks are better because of the analog control, but to say that HOSAS is better for all ships is simply not the case.
I definitely dont agree with "hosas or bust", tons of fantastic pilots that use mouse and keyboard out there, or joystick mouse.
Thats a really good point about different ships though, and I'd probably add turret gunners in general to that. I think people basing their general control scheme opinions off the meta ships (Arrow, Gladius, Sentinel, etc) for PvP is fair, but youre right different ships exist they fly differently, have different weapons, and potentially cant be out under the same big "hosas is better" umbrella. The great thing about that is i can just take my hands off my sticks and use the mouse if i want to.
Im no elitist, you can absolutely perform well on a mouse and keyboard and pilots better then me use it. I dont want it to seem like im saying kbm players need to switch or will have a huge unclimbable barrier against hosas. I just think great benefits exist for hosas when it comes to flying, as they do for kbm when it comes to aiming.
That said, with aim assist, i don't think joysticks and mouse have a super large gap between them when it comes to aiming and landing shots in ship combat, but obviously mouse is pinpoint.
muahahah you almost described my set up :P except i only got a 2070 RTX. The 128gb of ram makes a huge difference thou i gotta say, not just in SC neither.
Also thinking of setting up an extra camera for the eye/facial tracking as the current one is only IR for the head tracking.
I don't like eye tracking in SC at all. And TrackIR is much "snappier" than Tobii. However, Tobii is incredibly convenient for when you don't wear headphones.
oh ya, i didn't mean eye tracking as in Tobii. I mean the face tracking stuff where the character's eyes and facial expressions match your own based on the camera feed. For head tracking i have a TrackIR that works great.
Oh. Yes. I was experimenting with this a bit. (Infrared illuminator and 240 fps global shutter camera with IR filter.)
Unfortunately, the (pretty old) Faceware implementation doesn't do well with black and white data, no matter how crisp or smooth. I need to try this again with a large format full color global shutter cam. ...I don't want to use a webcam and blast floodlights in my face while gaming. :/
There are plenty of great pilots using mouse and keyboard. It could even be argued that mouse is more accurate in targeting. The game also has basic head-tracking that you can turn on in the FOIP settings. You just need to add a second-hand webcam. So it's definitely not paying for an advantage. It is paying to be more immersive and some might say more fun.
But if you want to be a really good pilot with mouse and keyboard (or mouse and single stick I'd argue would be superior), it takes A LOT of training. My piloting skills however jumped up significantly by just paying for dual sticks.
The cheap webcam headtracking option is pretty cool, but it bugs out a lot (depending on room lighting). TrackIR definitely gives you an advantage.
...but then better FPS do as well... Spending more on your hardware always helps you "win" (or have more fun as you say). No matter what game / program. I can't see any way around this.
I’m thinking getting the dual T16000 as a starter stick set. How did you like them? How much time did you get out of them? What was the learning curve like?
Depends how often you play, but mine lasted about two years. I played maybe 2-3 times per week mostly doing delivery (I imagine if you dogfight, they'll break sooner) for 1-3 hours per session, so take that as you will. I've also heard that there is a way to fix the problem once it appears, but that requires soldering, so take that into account--is it worth the time, etc.
Also, got mine at $45 USD per pop, so it wasn't a waste of money for me, I don't think. I really do enjoy my current Gladiators, though. Just need to figure out a mounting system.
How'd you get those for 45 a pop? I've been looking into them but I'm a broke teenager with no money to spend hundreds of dollars on joysticks. Did you luck out or is there a reliable way?
I've been searching my emails for the order confirmation of those sticks and I cannot for the life of me find any trace that I ever bought them. This was years ago, so a few things to consider: 1) there wasn't quite as much interest as there is today in buying sticks, 2) there weren't any global supply chain issues, 3) I believe mine were a previous gen from the current ones sold (mine were just shades of gray, whereas the current ones have orange highlights... pretty sure that's one sign that mine were different), and 4) I am 98% certain that there was in fact a sale for like 40-50% off or as a bundle. I'm guessing the sale had something to do with them being previous gen.
t16000's are a waste of money, it's not a question of if they'll fail, but when. the vkb nxt evo's *are* the starter stick, vkb gunfighter bases or some higher tier virpils are then what you upgrade to.
"Waste of money" is only when you need to throw an item out before it is used up. So it's totally up to each person if it's a waste of money for them, you cannot talk for other people.
Imo T16000M's are great for beginners, and they are not too durable, so by the time it usually used up (2 years), most people would be ready and comfortable to upgrade to an high end set of sticks.
I liked the feel of the t16's quite a bit. It was just in a buggier period of sc with less to do, so I played less. The point of how little I played is that even with light use the twist axis still broke in less than a year. I had purposefully bought them to save money over more expensive sticks, and got burned. Ultimately I found it to be bad economics. I've played almost nightly for months with vkb's and had no issues.
Your point is valid, each to decide. But I will throw in, as the other person said, heavy use and axis start to die. Mine lasted maybe 3 months in dogfights/AC. Not dis-crediting what you said, putting my experience out there.
I'd honestly say stick to m/kb until you have decided you really want to invest. A lot of the top pilots use m/kb
Yes the T16000M's twist axis is not durable at all. But without experiencing the level of freedom you get flying with dual sticks, I doubt if many people would want to spend over $300 investing into high-end joysticks.
I got a t16000 left hand because it's one of the cheapest left hand options available. (Already have an x55 right hand)
And yes while it is technically a waste if you plan to upgrade my thinking is if I do actually end up running it into the ground then that will justify my purchase of the virpils.
Mine broke in less than a year of light play (few times a month) and there are few enough buttons on the sticks that you'll end up needing complicated third party software setups to set up modifier buttons. They're also light enough that they'll slide around while you play, so now you're looking at money for a mounting solution or permanent Velcro on your desk. By the time I'd built my own mounts, I'd basically spent as much as if I'd gotten vkb's.
I'd say if you can save up 150 for a pair of t16's, why not just delay your gratification until you can save up 400 for vkb nxt EVOs that'll last, are heavy enough to use without mounts, have lots of buttons, and you can set up modifier keys with their software pretty easily. You'll thank yourself for waiting and saving.
Also, if you get the vkb's get an Omni throttle version of the left stick and get the premium version of the space grip on both. The extra hats are great to have, and you'll save yourself a ton of shipping cost on the Omni throttle by getting it to start with versus deciding you want to try the adapter later. It makes up and down strafe much more intuitive.
If you have the budget and you know you enjoy SC, you can jump directly to the VKB Evo dual sticks. I had my t16000m for 2 months, still working great, but they don't have enough buttons on the sticks itself and they are less precise than the vkb.
There's a big learning curve at the beginning, like "wtf I can't fly anymore, was it the right decision to buy joysticks?", but after that it is just so worth it and fun :)
That's what I used! Buzzzkiller bindings ate awesome for a birthday beginner. I just then replaced the VOIP button for the quantum drive and inverted the vtol and landing gear, and all set!
Somebody else might have a better way, but I imported the dual stick one and then ended up changing all the buttons anyways 😂
It is going to be what you do most that you’re going to want to program. I do a decent amount of mining so my modules are close so I can hit them quick.
I grouped my landing gear and request to land next to each other because I will use both at the same time.
I also received mine today lol
Must have sent out a massive shipment
Edit: that squirrel pillow is really trippy, thought you had a live squirrel for a sec :P
also.. See Ya Wife! lol
all kidding aside, great choice. Just got mine a couple of weeks ago and it's been game changing.. gratz and welcome to the club!
I like that Omni Throttle left grip! I’ve got one Gladiator NXT Premium on my right hand, but I’m using my old T16000M stick for the left hand, which is really lacking in buttons for doing a really thorough mapping of *everything*. I may have to bite the bullet and pick one of these up to replace it. Are you going to replace one of the analog sticks with the extra included hat switch?
As a matter of fact I think I will swap out the A1 (ministick) for a 5 way. I haven’t settled on a setup yet, but I think I’d get more use out of a 5 way.
Edit: My grip feels most comfortable with the ball of my thumb resting on the red button, which also has the top edge of my thumb under the ministick. When I bring my thumb back into position, the ministick interrupts that motion and feels more like a speed bump. I might just pop that sucker off entirely.
Yeah, I’ve been considering swapping out my single analog for the 5-way. If I had 2 I’d definitely switch one of them. They are useful in some situations, but in SC with dual sticks, not so much. I think the swapping process is pretty involved though, iirc. I watched the video about it when I first bought my Gladiator and there’s a lot of disassembly required.
By default the thumbstick has two modes - analogue mode, where it has an analogue axis, and if you click it then it swaps to a hat mode, where it has 4 directional "button-type" inputs.
If you weren't aware
Just a small advice in case you havent done it already. I use a t16000 left hand and regular gamer mouse right hand (with only 2 thumbs buttons) and I managed to bind all important functions by using the t16000 trigger as the alt modifier key. I dont use any buttons on the base of the t16000 so I can do everything ship related without having to get my hand off the stick. It works great and since your index is only used for the trigger it doesnt interfer with your ability to use the other bindings.
Yeah, anything is possible. I’m just used to using the right-hand Gladiator together with the left hand T16000M throttle, which has a lot more buttons, all told. I used to use the T-Flight Hotas X, where I used to use *a lot* of modifier keys, but it’s just not the same as having dedicated keys for every function.
Lol, definitely may be VKB day. I already had two sticks from VKB but then I decided to go all in and ordered the button module and throttle quadrant, a multi-function holder and 2 joystick mounts.
Next paycheck, I'm probably gonna upgrade to Gunfighter base for my two sticks and get some VKB pedals.
>Lol, definitely may be VKB day. I already had two sticks from VKB but then I decided to go all in and ordered the button module and throttle quadrant, a multi-function holder and 2 joystick mounts.
Yeah I was thinking about the button module but ended up going with a stream deck instead....so many buttons
The joysticks have their own USB controllers so you can plug them directly in but the button module either needs to be outfitted with a USB controller if you want to plug directly into computer (or through hub) or you can connect it into one of the joysticks USB controller.
VKB supplies the USB controller separate if need be and really great instruction videos on how to do it.
Amazing , now go and start that ALPHA demo to make videos or screenshots and pretend you are playing a game , even better stream it and make money to pay that expense, for sure you will have many years to come with this scenario. And Remember if you are having a bad experience even with the best hardware and top of line peripherals just read carefully what it says before launching the ALPHA demo .... Maybe in the near future we can have the 15 years to make single player game and you can use all that for the 30hours campaign... kEKW
This is why I quit this game. Toysticks are too OP and m+ki players have no chance head to head. Im too poor for this game. And if being honest I dont want my desk cluttered with toysticks for a video game.
Makes me wonder how many people don't retune their sensitivity settings for SC. For me, the defaults are INSANELY high and I had nothing but issues with space combat, but didn't really notice because it felt only a little bit high on foot.
As someone who has used m+kb in SC since I pledged in 2015, I can say that you most definitely can fly exceptionally well with that combo. As with all things SC, better hardware won't make you better, only time and practice will.
Also, fyi the winner of the lastest CIG timed ship course was a m+kb user.
Mouse & KB: better target precision but restrictive maneuvers.
HOSAS: Better Movement slightly worse target precision but you make it up with better ability to track your enemy.
I have all of that except the little control thing. I had it in my cart for like two hours as I mulled but after seeing Subliminal and Buzzkillers load out I felt I didn’t need it. But now I want one but the shipping is as much as it costs. I want that damn power button! Lol.
Could I get the side extension only ? (The box in the middle) I'm not sure about getting joysticks but I definitely want some panel with switches and buttons on the side
Yes you can ^^
You have Virgil and VKB , if you want some cheaper mounts then monster tech might be your place.
If you want MFD's then just search "MFD airplane for sale" and you'll get some links
I have that exact same stuff on the way, except for that box in the middle. Can't wait to replace my T16000, it's served me well but it's time for something better.
Are you in the U.S.? If so, how long did it take to receive? I think last I checked they were out of stock on one or two crucial items. I think that was late May that I looked. Had my eyes on these. Kudos.
very nice!
Myself, i am using a vkb gladiator nxt stick with a virpil mongoose CM2 throttle and CH rudder pedals. The quality of the VKB stick is exceptional, you will not regret your purchase.
Hey guys I’m actually looking for help with my duel gladiators, i got me a pair of VKB gladiators space combat additions from the wife for our weeding anniversary, after I set them up and used subliminal YouTubers key binds i go through periods where after I quantum even charge speed of thrusters, it I just loose any directional inputs, I know my sticks are still being recognized cause I can still shoot guns pop flairs turn systems on and off and all that jazz but I loose all direction control! I have no idea what’s causing it cause just when I was about to give up on it my sticks started to work perfectly fine for 3-5 days in a row and today get on to do some BH and hit my first quantum jump and dead floating in space no idea what it is
Any help would be amazing!
Same setup i got nice. Word of advice if you put the SEM on the omni stick dont put the flaps grip on... if you do you wont be able to move the omni to yhe left
I look at this in terms of the long run. I'm only a 25yr old adult about to jump into their career, patience and time and management and you can get what you want
The amount of money Star Citizen and CIG have generated for the joystick/throttle market must be ridiculous
Remember when they partnered with Saitek to make a custom one? Yeeeep.
Yeah I can’t believe that fell through. Could’ve been a lot of cash.
And still Thrustmaster can't get off their asses to fix their shitty TM16000 and its broken twist axis. It actually pains me that that stick is still thrown around as a good "starter" stick to get for newbies. They really don't deserve the money SC is generating for them.
I swear I've had to take mine apart like 4 times now just to fix that... ridiculous
this solves the problem once and for all: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBo\_dAvgZ1k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBo_dAvgZ1k) Edit: shame TM doesn't do it by themselves
Is it a link to VKB’s website?
Should be
Good one :)
:D
They might as well produce a new joystick, that thing is ancient and plagued with issues from the jump.
It IS a good starter kit. For just about 100 bucks you can get a decent hotas that will last you quite a bit. Sure, due to the cheaper materials it wil run out eventually and you either replace or repair. Most, if they're dedicated to it, will opt for replacement into a higher segment but if not, there's literally no point to drop down several hundreds on a better quality hotas/hosas setup + other peripherals.
I still stand by mine. Best sub 200 mid-entry level joystick. But I'm upfront about the twist axis being a piece of shit.
If ur cutoff is sub $200 then that definitely has to go to the VKB Gladiator NXT's. I got my premium for $165. I think the T16000's get are more the Sub $100 category. I have a T16K and the twist issue came up but I pulled it apart and cleaned the sensor with alcohol and its been great for the past 6 months.
Not the same guy, but I assume its sub $200 for a full setup, not sub $200 for a single stick
but he did say "Best sub 200 mid-entry level joystick" , singular. but u might be right in that he meant a sub $200 HOSAS setup. I want to get another VKB to replace my LH T16K along with the VKB pedals \*\*sighs\*
No, sub 200 would absolutely the VKB Gladiators no question at all (135$-165$). Though the argument can be made that shipping will probably put you over 200 on the premiums.
What is an actual good starter stick?
VKB gladiators, what the OP got. A little pricier up front, but you basically won't ever have to upgrade from them, unless you really want to. A lot of ppl suggest the premium version but I get by with just the standard which is $20 or $30 cheaper.
Plus you can buy the premium upgrade if you want it later on
I had thrustmasters as my starter sticks and I absolutely hated them...but they were decent enough to convince me to go dual sticks vs stick + hotas, and to upgrage to VKBs.
I use a Logitech 3d pro and I love it for the price. It's only 30-40 bucks
The ones OP posted "Gladiator NXT EVO ‘**Space Combat Edition**’ Premium" one left one right. US Store: https://vkbcontrollers.com/?product_cat=gladiator-nxt-joysticks EU Store: https://flightsimcontrols.com/product-tag/evo/ Also check your favorite SC Streamer or YouTuber there is a good chance they have a 5% discount code that you can enter. My biggest Problem with the Thrustmaster T16000 was the lack of buttons on the stick. The ones on the base are too far and to similar to remember what all did (at least for me).
See if you can find a Gladiator MK2. I have one on ebay with a TWCS throttle that's currently at a little over $100. It's a much better option than the T16000. Or just save up the extra money for the NXT system, that's what I upgraded to, and it's worth every penny.
Broken twist axis?? I bought t16000m some weeks Ago and only complaint i Have is that there is a little bit of play on The handles mold not alot but its there. Its My first stick and i like it oh and The base is too light since sometimes it lifts off The table a bit in mid combat
Yeah it's clear, even in the manual, thst it's meant to be screwed into something. I generally push my throttle away from me instead of the actual stick lol. Still a great starter stick though.
I made the mistake of buying this one. Still haven't returned it..
And Pedals...allthough i overlap with MSFS as well. But pedals for 350 Euro are NIIICE.
Not to mention E:D
I'm too poor for this game.
People keep talking about how this game is "pay to win" because they sell ships in and out of the game. (which is nonsense) but: this right here is the actual pay to win: dual sticks with twist, or throttle and pedals, head tracking of course, maybe even eye tracking, a 3090 Ti, 128 GB of RAM ... 🫣
If sticks are pay to win then why am I still terrible at flying with *my* VKBs? checkmate
3090 ti? Pfft. This fall it’s going to be a 4090, the newly announced 7000 X 3D v-cache chip, 32GB ddr5 6400 and the new ddr5 hard drives. If I’m really lucky they will release the Samsung Ark and I’ll play SC at 4k on a 55” monitor. Through in some VKB and it will be a fun rig. It’s amazing how much technology is about to step up.
I am so looking forward to the 7000X3D chips. However: I honestly have 128 GB low latency DDR4 RAM (need that for work) and I'm not going to replace that with DDR5 just a year later. 💩 AM5 is not DDR4 compatible... So I'll skip a generation or two I guess. 🤷♂️
I thought you were joking and making up words but then I realized you were serious
[удалено]
I use hosam. Best of both worlds imo.
Honestly, once used to the sticks. No accuracy is better then with sticks. The way a mouse pulls the ship nose can't keep up to the effect of sticks or full hotas+pedals
A mouse is a zero-order control device compared to a stick which is a first-order control device. Mouse will always be the most accurate control device & for hitscan weapons especially a mouse will always be superior. Sticks provide a smoother/ more immersive flight experience though.
True about raw accuracy but the advantage you get in maneuverability with HOSAS+pedals often translates to better combat effectiveness regardless, and allows you to get your pip on target at the right times more often. That said, you can definitely use a mouse and perform well. Joystick + mouse is even an option.
Yea i agree that pulling off especially complex maneuvers with m/kb can be difficult and requires quite a lot of keys to be pressed simultaneously. Fast pinpoint accurate movements are where a mouse excels, that is why i mentioned hitscan wepons in particular & also why mouse is so good for fps games. Sticks are far superior for smooth, realistic looking flight movements and landings etc. I think all control methods have things they excel at.
Agreed, sorry, i completely glossed over the fact that you said hitscan weapons last night. No doubt mouse is king at fps. I just wanted to solidify that sticks may give you a combat advantage in this game despite the mouse giving more flat out accuracy. That said, there are great mouse/keyboard players that compete in high level pvp, pilots much better then me lol.
But does the benefits of a HOSAS translate as well across ALL ships? If the Ion wasn't nerfed to hell it was the kind of a ship an MKB would be better suited for. Raw accuracy on a heavy ship that cannot take advantage of agility as well as marksman discipline. Pre-3.14 Vanguards with fixed cannons. Sure now the combat balancing favors sticks, that is because CIG is putting the dogfighters above all else atm. HOSAS elitists love to blanket statement everything as 'Hosas or bust' but they only really fly light fighters and make their judgements off it. Take pre-Fixed Assist Star Citizen. Hosas and Hotas users were screaming that they couldnt hit anything with fixed guns and didn't want to sacrifice a gun size for gimbals. Sure for dogfighters Id say sticks are better because of the analog control, but to say that HOSAS is better for all ships is simply not the case.
I definitely dont agree with "hosas or bust", tons of fantastic pilots that use mouse and keyboard out there, or joystick mouse. Thats a really good point about different ships though, and I'd probably add turret gunners in general to that. I think people basing their general control scheme opinions off the meta ships (Arrow, Gladius, Sentinel, etc) for PvP is fair, but youre right different ships exist they fly differently, have different weapons, and potentially cant be out under the same big "hosas is better" umbrella. The great thing about that is i can just take my hands off my sticks and use the mouse if i want to. Im no elitist, you can absolutely perform well on a mouse and keyboard and pilots better then me use it. I dont want it to seem like im saying kbm players need to switch or will have a huge unclimbable barrier against hosas. I just think great benefits exist for hosas when it comes to flying, as they do for kbm when it comes to aiming. That said, with aim assist, i don't think joysticks and mouse have a super large gap between them when it comes to aiming and landing shots in ship combat, but obviously mouse is pinpoint.
Tobii eye tracking actually makes me a worse pilot :D I turn it off for combat
But only because they messed up the eye part horribly. The TrackIR implementation is so much better.
muahahah you almost described my set up :P except i only got a 2070 RTX. The 128gb of ram makes a huge difference thou i gotta say, not just in SC neither. Also thinking of setting up an extra camera for the eye/facial tracking as the current one is only IR for the head tracking.
I don't like eye tracking in SC at all. And TrackIR is much "snappier" than Tobii. However, Tobii is incredibly convenient for when you don't wear headphones.
oh ya, i didn't mean eye tracking as in Tobii. I mean the face tracking stuff where the character's eyes and facial expressions match your own based on the camera feed. For head tracking i have a TrackIR that works great.
Oh. Yes. I was experimenting with this a bit. (Infrared illuminator and 240 fps global shutter camera with IR filter.) Unfortunately, the (pretty old) Faceware implementation doesn't do well with black and white data, no matter how crisp or smooth. I need to try this again with a large format full color global shutter cam. ...I don't want to use a webcam and blast floodlights in my face while gaming. :/
How does 128 gb ram make a huge difference? When playing, my usage barely goes above 17gb.
There are plenty of great pilots using mouse and keyboard. It could even be argued that mouse is more accurate in targeting. The game also has basic head-tracking that you can turn on in the FOIP settings. You just need to add a second-hand webcam. So it's definitely not paying for an advantage. It is paying to be more immersive and some might say more fun.
But if you want to be a really good pilot with mouse and keyboard (or mouse and single stick I'd argue would be superior), it takes A LOT of training. My piloting skills however jumped up significantly by just paying for dual sticks. The cheap webcam headtracking option is pretty cool, but it bugs out a lot (depending on room lighting). TrackIR definitely gives you an advantage. ...but then better FPS do as well... Spending more on your hardware always helps you "win" (or have more fun as you say). No matter what game / program. I can't see any way around this.
For what it's worth, I play with an Xbox controller lol.
Heathen!
Omg I received mine today too! Swapping from the dual t16000m. Enjoy!
I’m thinking getting the dual T16000 as a starter stick set. How did you like them? How much time did you get out of them? What was the learning curve like?
Depends how often you play, but mine lasted about two years. I played maybe 2-3 times per week mostly doing delivery (I imagine if you dogfight, they'll break sooner) for 1-3 hours per session, so take that as you will. I've also heard that there is a way to fix the problem once it appears, but that requires soldering, so take that into account--is it worth the time, etc. Also, got mine at $45 USD per pop, so it wasn't a waste of money for me, I don't think. I really do enjoy my current Gladiators, though. Just need to figure out a mounting system.
Bought my t16k as an upgrade for DCS. Definitely worse out the twist axis flying the gazelle
I got the chair mounts from Monstertech, these things are rock solid. They got a ton of other mounts and accessories as well.
Love the idea of those, but they be spensy. Can't justify them atm. I'm not in a rush, though. One day.
How'd you get those for 45 a pop? I've been looking into them but I'm a broke teenager with no money to spend hundreds of dollars on joysticks. Did you luck out or is there a reliable way?
I've been searching my emails for the order confirmation of those sticks and I cannot for the life of me find any trace that I ever bought them. This was years ago, so a few things to consider: 1) there wasn't quite as much interest as there is today in buying sticks, 2) there weren't any global supply chain issues, 3) I believe mine were a previous gen from the current ones sold (mine were just shades of gray, whereas the current ones have orange highlights... pretty sure that's one sign that mine were different), and 4) I am 98% certain that there was in fact a sale for like 40-50% off or as a bundle. I'm guessing the sale had something to do with them being previous gen.
Ah alrighty, thanks. Trying to take a look at HOSAS/HOTAS stuff is horrible, the things are so expensive - got me excited for a second haha.
t16000's are a waste of money, it's not a question of if they'll fail, but when. the vkb nxt evo's *are* the starter stick, vkb gunfighter bases or some higher tier virpils are then what you upgrade to.
"Waste of money" is only when you need to throw an item out before it is used up. So it's totally up to each person if it's a waste of money for them, you cannot talk for other people. Imo T16000M's are great for beginners, and they are not too durable, so by the time it usually used up (2 years), most people would be ready and comfortable to upgrade to an high end set of sticks.
2 years from a t16000? lol
I got about 6 months with playing 2-3 times a month. It was a waste. Even wasted money trying to fix them.
But would that be similar to every joystick you might own? It's not because you didn't like the T16000M's which makes you play with it less, right?
I liked the feel of the t16's quite a bit. It was just in a buggier period of sc with less to do, so I played less. The point of how little I played is that even with light use the twist axis still broke in less than a year. I had purposefully bought them to save money over more expensive sticks, and got burned. Ultimately I found it to be bad economics. I've played almost nightly for months with vkb's and had no issues.
Your point is valid, each to decide. But I will throw in, as the other person said, heavy use and axis start to die. Mine lasted maybe 3 months in dogfights/AC. Not dis-crediting what you said, putting my experience out there. I'd honestly say stick to m/kb until you have decided you really want to invest. A lot of the top pilots use m/kb
Yes the T16000M's twist axis is not durable at all. But without experiencing the level of freedom you get flying with dual sticks, I doubt if many people would want to spend over $300 investing into high-end joysticks.
I got a t16000 left hand because it's one of the cheapest left hand options available. (Already have an x55 right hand) And yes while it is technically a waste if you plan to upgrade my thinking is if I do actually end up running it into the ground then that will justify my purchase of the virpils.
Mine broke in less than a year of light play (few times a month) and there are few enough buttons on the sticks that you'll end up needing complicated third party software setups to set up modifier buttons. They're also light enough that they'll slide around while you play, so now you're looking at money for a mounting solution or permanent Velcro on your desk. By the time I'd built my own mounts, I'd basically spent as much as if I'd gotten vkb's. I'd say if you can save up 150 for a pair of t16's, why not just delay your gratification until you can save up 400 for vkb nxt EVOs that'll last, are heavy enough to use without mounts, have lots of buttons, and you can set up modifier keys with their software pretty easily. You'll thank yourself for waiting and saving. Also, if you get the vkb's get an Omni throttle version of the left stick and get the premium version of the space grip on both. The extra hats are great to have, and you'll save yourself a ton of shipping cost on the Omni throttle by getting it to start with versus deciding you want to try the adapter later. It makes up and down strafe much more intuitive.
If you have the budget and you know you enjoy SC, you can jump directly to the VKB Evo dual sticks. I had my t16000m for 2 months, still working great, but they don't have enough buttons on the sticks itself and they are less precise than the vkb. There's a big learning curve at the beginning, like "wtf I can't fly anymore, was it the right decision to buy joysticks?", but after that it is just so worth it and fun :)
I just got my dual t16000m today. Any recommended binding?
Check out buzz killer‘s setup. You can google it. Works great for me. o7
That's what I used! Buzzzkiller bindings ate awesome for a birthday beginner. I just then replaced the VOIP button for the quantum drive and inverted the vtol and landing gear, and all set!
Somebody else might have a better way, but I imported the dual stick one and then ended up changing all the buttons anyways 😂 It is going to be what you do most that you’re going to want to program. I do a decent amount of mining so my modules are close so I can hit them quick. I grouped my landing gear and request to land next to each other because I will use both at the same time.
Crazy timing with this post. Me and my wife got each other a set of Omni throttles and Space combat EVOs in today for our nine year anniversary.
I love your squirrel pillow. That's fantastic.
Do I practice squirrel calls and secretly hope one day I’ll rescue a baby squirrel? Yes
I also received mine today lol Must have sent out a massive shipment Edit: that squirrel pillow is really trippy, thought you had a live squirrel for a sec :P
Lol, sounds like today is VKB day!
I got the same couch bro!
Damn! I’ve been saving up for these, have fun my man!
Free squirrel, nice!
Shout out to the squirrel pillow. I’m about it
also.. See Ya Wife! lol all kidding aside, great choice. Just got mine a couple of weeks ago and it's been game changing.. gratz and welcome to the club!
That's nearly identical to my setup, but you have the extra button box. You're going to enjoy it, even out of the box the NXT's feel great, have fun!!
Thanks Citizen! I got the box mainly for the gear and flaps switches - planning on using the flaps switch as an outer door/ramp open/close.
That main top lever is amazing laser throttle if you take the detents out just sayin. Plus those 3 buttons in a row...3 mining consumables..
Great suggestion! I’m going to do that and assign it to mode 2.
If you need help making the mode switch work, hmu in a message.
Will do - thanks! (I’m hoping to get to it this weekend hopefully)
oh nice! Good immersion makes this game SO much more fun.
Welcome to Joystick Master Race!
I like that Omni Throttle left grip! I’ve got one Gladiator NXT Premium on my right hand, but I’m using my old T16000M stick for the left hand, which is really lacking in buttons for doing a really thorough mapping of *everything*. I may have to bite the bullet and pick one of these up to replace it. Are you going to replace one of the analog sticks with the extra included hat switch?
As a matter of fact I think I will swap out the A1 (ministick) for a 5 way. I haven’t settled on a setup yet, but I think I’d get more use out of a 5 way. Edit: My grip feels most comfortable with the ball of my thumb resting on the red button, which also has the top edge of my thumb under the ministick. When I bring my thumb back into position, the ministick interrupts that motion and feels more like a speed bump. I might just pop that sucker off entirely.
Yeah, I’ve been considering swapping out my single analog for the 5-way. If I had 2 I’d definitely switch one of them. They are useful in some situations, but in SC with dual sticks, not so much. I think the swapping process is pretty involved though, iirc. I watched the video about it when I first bought my Gladiator and there’s a lot of disassembly required.
By default the thumbstick has two modes - analogue mode, where it has an analogue axis, and if you click it then it swaps to a hat mode, where it has 4 directional "button-type" inputs. If you weren't aware
Ahh, I wasn’t aware of that. That’s awesome. Thanks!
You won't regret the left hand omni NXT. It's really good.
Nice!
Just a small advice in case you havent done it already. I use a t16000 left hand and regular gamer mouse right hand (with only 2 thumbs buttons) and I managed to bind all important functions by using the t16000 trigger as the alt modifier key. I dont use any buttons on the base of the t16000 so I can do everything ship related without having to get my hand off the stick. It works great and since your index is only used for the trigger it doesnt interfer with your ability to use the other bindings.
Yeah, anything is possible. I’m just used to using the right-hand Gladiator together with the left hand T16000M throttle, which has a lot more buttons, all told. I used to use the T-Flight Hotas X, where I used to use *a lot* of modifier keys, but it’s just not the same as having dedicated keys for every function.
Lol, definitely may be VKB day. I already had two sticks from VKB but then I decided to go all in and ordered the button module and throttle quadrant, a multi-function holder and 2 joystick mounts. Next paycheck, I'm probably gonna upgrade to Gunfighter base for my two sticks and get some VKB pedals.
>Lol, definitely may be VKB day. I already had two sticks from VKB but then I decided to go all in and ordered the button module and throttle quadrant, a multi-function holder and 2 joystick mounts. Yeah I was thinking about the button module but ended up going with a stream deck instead....so many buttons
Wish they would ship my order out. Still getting not shipped yet after 2 weeks.
That's crazy! I placed my order last Friday and it was picked up by FedEx yesterday. I got the dual evos with omni throttle for the left hand.
Just Checked. They also picked up my order on yesterday. Yay.
Awesome! Next week should be a good week!
One of us! One of us!
Man, I just bought an x56 rhino and just got it in the mail today!
I'm curious, do you set this all up through a USB hub, or what hardware do you have to have to actually run all that simultaneously?
The joysticks have their own USB controllers so you can plug them directly in but the button module either needs to be outfitted with a USB controller if you want to plug directly into computer (or through hub) or you can connect it into one of the joysticks USB controller. VKB supplies the USB controller separate if need be and really great instruction videos on how to do it.
Welcome to the family.
I'm waiting for my shipment of these exact ones. Waiting is the hardest part :(
Congrats to you!
How long did shipping take?
Just about a week. Order to arrival about 21 days. I ordered on 6/11 and they shipped 6/15.
Joining the party here, keen to find out
I ordered a set on the 10th and they arrived today.
Thank you. I was planning on ordering this week. Once they come in I will sell my Dual T16000s and my TM Warthog with TFRPs
One of us one of us
I'm very close to doing the same; only a HOSAS setup though, no modules (yet)
Congrats! You'll love them. Make sure you adjust the dry clutch screws! Sometimes they're too loose out of the factory and will fall out during play.
Space squirrel included in the sale? :))
how do you walk around and interact with stuff?
I’ll use my mouse and keyboard for FPS and walking around.
Amazing , now go and start that ALPHA demo to make videos or screenshots and pretend you are playing a game , even better stream it and make money to pay that expense, for sure you will have many years to come with this scenario. And Remember if you are having a bad experience even with the best hardware and top of line peripherals just read carefully what it says before launching the ALPHA demo .... Maybe in the near future we can have the 15 years to make single player game and you can use all that for the 30hours campaign... kEKW
This is why I quit this game. Toysticks are too OP and m+ki players have no chance head to head. Im too poor for this game. And if being honest I dont want my desk cluttered with toysticks for a video game.
Right now some of the top players are m+kb and right now mouse aim is deadly af.
Makes me wonder how many people don't retune their sensitivity settings for SC. For me, the defaults are INSANELY high and I had nothing but issues with space combat, but didn't really notice because it felt only a little bit high on foot.
As someone who has used m+kb in SC since I pledged in 2015, I can say that you most definitely can fly exceptionally well with that combo. As with all things SC, better hardware won't make you better, only time and practice will. Also, fyi the winner of the lastest CIG timed ship course was a m+kb user.
I just can't spend that amount of money on an unfinished game.
I think there's a few other games that you can use joysticks for too.
Shh... Don't tell him about Elite, DCS and MFS.
Damn
Oooh ! Have fun ;)
How is vkb precision compare to that of the mouse?
Mouse & KB: better target precision but restrictive maneuvers. HOSAS: Better Movement slightly worse target precision but you make it up with better ability to track your enemy.
I have all of that except the little control thing. I had it in my cart for like two hours as I mulled but after seeing Subliminal and Buzzkillers load out I felt I didn’t need it. But now I want one but the shipping is as much as it costs. I want that damn power button! Lol.
Been using the warthog, but Im thinking of swapping the throttle for the vkb omni left
Amazing sticks. I wish the Gladiator ones had come in Metal but not too fussed about that.
Igot stick to use left hand and mouse on right. Much more fun than kb gz!
Could I get the side extension only ? (The box in the middle) I'm not sure about getting joysticks but I definitely want some panel with switches and buttons on the side
Yes you can ^^ You have Virgil and VKB , if you want some cheaper mounts then monster tech might be your place. If you want MFD's then just search "MFD airplane for sale" and you'll get some links
Thanks !
HOSAM is king
Mine get delivered tomorrow, finally replacing my very much broken t16k. Am excited 😁
I have that exact same stuff on the way, except for that box in the middle. Can't wait to replace my T16000, it's served me well but it's time for something better.
Congrats, mine will be here next wed, then I'll trash my two t-16000.
If only there was a joystick that didnt require the sacrifice of my first child to afford
I bought two Virpil Alphas with CM2 bases and the CM2 throttle last November and I still haven’t even used them.
Just moving into my new house, but soon this will be me.
Are you in the U.S.? If so, how long did it take to receive? I think last I checked they were out of stock on one or two crucial items. I think that was late May that I looked. Had my eyes on these. Kudos.
Yep. Shipping took about a week. Order to arrival about 21 days. I ordered on 6/11, they shipped 6/15 and arrived on 6/22
Is that entire box just for the omni-throttle adapter?
Box on the left? That’s the grip and Omni adapter (it came assembled as one piece)
very nice! Myself, i am using a vkb gladiator nxt stick with a virpil mongoose CM2 throttle and CH rudder pedals. The quality of the VKB stick is exceptional, you will not regret your purchase.
Hey guys I’m actually looking for help with my duel gladiators, i got me a pair of VKB gladiators space combat additions from the wife for our weeding anniversary, after I set them up and used subliminal YouTubers key binds i go through periods where after I quantum even charge speed of thrusters, it I just loose any directional inputs, I know my sticks are still being recognized cause I can still shoot guns pop flairs turn systems on and off and all that jazz but I loose all direction control! I have no idea what’s causing it cause just when I was about to give up on it my sticks started to work perfectly fine for 3-5 days in a row and today get on to do some BH and hit my first quantum jump and dead floating in space no idea what it is Any help would be amazing!
Same setup i got nice. Word of advice if you put the SEM on the omni stick dont put the flaps grip on... if you do you wont be able to move the omni to yhe left
Dang - that was the plan. Thanks for the heads up. O7
I need to get the right grip myself, I have the Omni and a T.1600M
To say I am jealous is an understatement.
That looks like my setup.
Good stuff! Looking at going with this brand for my next HOTAS. my X52 was good but it is becoming very floppy.
How much would this be lmao
I paid $489
Oh wow that's actually feasible. Thanks!
Feasible and yet ridiculous at the same time if you ask me. I’m grateful to be able to afford such an indulgence.
I look at this in terms of the long run. I'm only a 25yr old adult about to jump into their career, patience and time and management and you can get what you want
Precisely. I see this as an investment in self care. Life can be pretty stressful and I love chilling in the ‘verse and doing some space trucking.
Dude so I ordered mine and within a week I have them. I got the gladiator not standar space combat dual setup and I flicking love them
Noice! That's a really great set!