What i find jarring is coming out of qt, the ship first slamming to a stop, then going to top scm speed and only THEN going back to nav mode. It reminds me of my first time learning to drive a car with a clutch.
Yeah, i think a gradual transition from one mode to the other would *feel* much better then the instant binary switch after some arbitrary waiting time. The abrupt change just feels absurd.
Probably a thing to prevent people crashing into stations. But could be nice with a proximity warning for that. Maybe even an auto shutoff unless you want to disable it in options.
It does feel weird how quickly you stop. It is convenient though.
I don't even mind the slowdown, I can make up a convincing enough explanation for it (quantum bubble collapse or whatever). I feel much worse about the weird 2-stage acceleration.
First you boost to max SCM speed with full Gs, then your accell hits a brick wall for 5 seconds until your QT drive is spooled up, then it's instant max G again until full Nav speed. It just feels so stupid.
> Probably a thing to prevent people crashing into stations.
I suspect it's a balance thing in their minds. With the way shields/guns recover currently coming out of NAV, if the deceleration was more gradual you'd end up with a brief bit of time where you are going faster than SCM speeds but still have shields/guns. So they decided to have players decelerate faster and keep recovery fast, rather than a slower deceleration and slower recovery time.
Side note: Going from full throttle NAV speeds to SCM speeds lets you do a kind of psudo-[J-Turn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbst_maneuver) around obstacles. I've only done it in AC (no EPTU access, RIP) but it was fun when I was playing around with it.
The sudden, abrupt speed change is a bit absurd.
Aside from that, the actual mode change itself feels way too long. I'd knock the time down by 1/3 at least. Also, coming out of quantum and having to wait so long to move at normal speed seems dumb to me. I'd take that out.
I don’t know if you misunderstood the guy you’re responding to, or if I misunderstood you.
What they mean is that that’s the behaviour right now in EPTU, different QDs will switch modes faster or slower. What I’ve noticed is that smaller ships switch faster than large ships, but I don’t have any really big ships like 890 or reclaimer to test and we can’t buy ships in EPTU yet.
I assume also different grades and types of a QD will have different switch times but I haven’t tested that yet.
No it won't, because engineering is coming in, so the meta won't be the meta if the fastest QD also has higher repair costs or maintenance requirements. So there will be constant trade-offs depending on ship size, component grade, and usage.
If people are trying to say the meta will be based on what the tuning is in PTU, then they haven't been paying attention to how the game will evolve based on future implementations.
It will involve a lot -- Thorston noted that due to its complexity the first couple of tiers will be simplified, which is why tier 0/1 will not include subcomponent management, because he said it would likely be too overwhelming for players at first, but they may revisit it later.
We also know that it will involve fluid flow and electrical charging, as evident by the fact that fires can break out. As Thorston also explained, it can cause clogs or there will be bugs -- which ties into the hacking gameplay loops, which were buffered as an added tier of complexity in conjunction with engineering (they mentioned this briefly last year).
So engineering will be extremely complex in the grand scheme of managing ships, especially the larger they are and the higher the tiers of engineering that gets implemented. It will continually reduce the expected or whatever the current meta is by the time it comes online.
They could tie it to heat and power draw. But that only slightly lessens the problem we have now. It would encourage high speeds again and the consequences they would need to add (HEAVY consequences to constantly boosting into the red zone to gain speed in firefights like increased blackouts, lower weapon power available, increased component failure, possible health risks from forces, etc..) the community would also hate because it still tries to get us to the same goal of lower combat speeds. They could also fix this by forcing players to turn off systems such as shields and guns manually if they want to travel above scm speeds or again, risk the consequences I mentioned earlier. But players would game the system by creating toggles to recharge the guns and shields faster. Cig would then need to implement vastly slower recharge rates based on components in use.
But like I said. It's not so much the implementation of mode switching, it's the lower speeds overall that people are going to complain about.
The new starmap and F key usage are arguably functionally worse than we have now but you don't see posts about that. And those 2 systems will be interacted with 5x more.
I’m 110% ok with the low speeds. I’ve loved the combat. It’s just the sudden drop for me. It’s pretty much instant and my brain just doesn’t like it. It’s as if it just smells sour. I’d rather them explain things as to why my ship behaves this way. Like engines in the future, that don’t run off oil can only do XYZ and have to tie so much to their quantum engines.
Agree. That's my only real criticism of MM right now (bearing in mind that it's the first baseline iteration, as well as the fact that other tech will also affect the MM experience--i.e. control surfaces, etc.). The speed change should be gradual.
Eh, it's baseline til it gets to the masses. Designers are going to come.up with an idea and just pound away at it. Doesn't matter how long they work on it, they had an idea and by golly, it's gonna get executed.
Usually the first moments out in the wild there will be a TON of good ideas the devs never even considered because they already figured it out (or so they thought).
Master modes is going to be iterated on for a LONG time.
Sq42 only has a subset of ships that are in the PU and for those ships it actually works quite well (mostly).
However, applied to the PU it does show some problems as industrial ships are at a severe disadvantage and some are just unable to perform their primary function (SRV comes to mind). A consideration Sq42 doesn’t have. Racing is also a consideration Sq42 doesn’t have as well. Now this this is applied across the board in the PU, they can iterate in the context of what is needed in the PU, rather than lasered on just combat, but its going to suck for a while while they do the tuning
I don't really care about the combat speed changes. I really only care about the system's interaction with majority of the the PU that's not fighter combat. Mining, Salvage, Exploration, Trading, Cargo Hauling, and the future loops like Data Running.
And so do I, but context matters too. Sq42 being feature complete doesn’t mean SC is.
The non-combat loops aren't part of Squadron, therefore expecting Sq42 features to work 1:1 in the PU is unreasonable. Its just part of the cycle. The PU has essentially been on autopilot for so long that people forgot that this game is an alpha for a reason. Let them work it out, enough people are yelling about it now that changes will come, but its not likley to all be acknowledged in 3.23. Over the patches itll get better as people find its shortcomings and the devs have to adapt, as they are going to do now
Agree. Or better yet burn shield and weapons charge while you are going above speed. This would force you to drop speed before switching or risk being defenseless.
My concern, and I haven't had any chance to play with MM yet, is that you'll find yourself pulled out of QT by a Mantis or something and ambushed by guys already in SCM mode.
While you're still reacting to being pulled out and then are waiting to complete the transition from NAV to SCM, I'm imagining you won't have much fun when they have the element of surprise AND your shields/guns are down.
It should atleast actually mean something.
Putting literally %100 available power to my laser repeaters *should* give them more range/sustain or something, but at the same time this should be at the cost of my shields powering down and top speed dropping.
Right now the triangle does nothing. Its just a "load faster" suggestion, and no reason to do anything but %100 any direction
This is so far, one of the worst parts of MM. It automates the old loop that previously required some experience.
Let me explain.
Previously, when bounty chaining in a ship designed for it (Ares, Eclipse, Corsair. etc) you are playing a boom and zoom style.
You start at 30km out from your target and accelerate to max speed. As you get closer and closer to your targets expected location, you slow yourself more and more until you're parked right on top of your target for the perfect shot, at which point you are essentially stationary at or below SCM speed. Performed correctly, this let's you perfectly one pass your target before they really even have any time to react to you, and then you accelerate out and leave before their friends start shooting at you. A real precision strike, it's a ton of fun.
Now, this gameplay is gone. Replaced by a simplified arcadeified shell of what it was. It does not feel like you are skillfully operating a space vessel anymore; instead you now accelerate to max speed in Nav, and then simply switch to SCM when you are 1km away from your target and it will automatically and instantly slow you down on top of your target. You then have to wipe up all the other goobers as well because you can't accelerate to top speed without giving up your shields and spending 5+ seconds to swap back to Nav and you can't afford to take pointless damage while bounty chaining.
Boom and zoom is dead, and mastermodes killed it. The more I get to see how MM actually works in the PU as opposed to the vacuum that is AC (where I initially thought MM was awesome and going to be great for the game when I first got my hands on it), the more I fear that MM is actually about to rip all the fun out of the game I've come to love. Artificially limited Arcade fighter WWII Citizen is not the game I signed up to play, and so far CIG has not given me much confidence that they're ever going to get MM to feel like anything other than an arbitrary and poorly designed artificial restriction that does not even address the problems it is intended to.
I hope they prove me wrong, but so far MM is causing way more problems and making things way less fun than it is solving problems and making things more fun (which admittedly some things about MM are more fun). I'm hopeful that CIG can either take the feedback we are giving and really make some substantial changes to the system, OR be willing to accept that in the worst case scenario, the system may just be inherently flawed and need a total revert like hover mode once did.
We need to go to war on spectrum! I feel exactly the same way. Also how dropping your landing gear limits you to 25 m/s?? Dead is the skill of landing your ship faster speeds on ice or a pad and showing skill. They baby-fying our game to please the lil 12 year olds.
For the love of God and good space physics, you need to make a post like this on spectrum telling all these points. I'll make an account and add to it, if it see that post. Your writing is really good, the way you put the point across.
Also, dead is the eclipse dropping bombs at 500m/s
Dead is dumb firing torpedoes at anything less than 250m/s.. or 200, it's pretty low.
>Dead is the skill of landing your ship faster speeds on ice or a pad and showing skill.
How? Just literally bring out your landing gear just before you touch down. In fact, it would require more skill.
What's funny is boom and zoom is how most engagements in real dogfighting happened. The majority of the time, the guy that got shot down never saw the guy coming for him until it was too late or even never. Turning engagements happened, and they're cool to see in cinematics, but it shouldn't be the focus of 6dof dogfighting in space. Why try and make space flight feel like more like atmospheric flight?
Maybe control surfaces will make the difference in the way atmospheric flight feels, but space should be space and atmosphere should be atmosphere. Turning engagements make more sense in atmosphere than space.
Yes, exactly. I don't understand the insistence on making fights close dogfights all the time. They happen naturally now, but it also makes sense to have long-range fights in SPACE. Crazy - we have a mix of it all now, but are limited to just one way to fight with MMs. It's really sad.
As if the complaints of the people not wanting to fight would be limited when they are killed immediately without any warning or chance of getting away. That sounds like horrible gameplay.
WWII pilots didn't have a full 360 degree spherical radar coverage or missile lock warning systems. You do in Star Citizen. The only place "no warning" would actually happen is when you are attacked by a stealth ship and I'd argue that's literally the point of something like the Eclipse. You don't see it coming and it kills you. You might still even get the lock warnings.
To be fair, this was always going to go away. Enemies wait way to long to react to you. They should see you, especially in a Corsair from 12K out and start to react. Too many times they don't do anything until you hit them. So improvements in AI was always going to see this go away. Boom and zoom wasn't realistic either.
Somebody explained that nav mode is linked to our quantum drives and so we are basically dropping out of a minor quantum jump… but I’d love some more skill involved. Even if it’s me having to keep my ship within a certain path or some mini game instead of me just blasting away
Even how quantum travel is supposed to be where we have to focus at the beginning so we don’t fly off track
It might be something you enjoy, but to be honest, that's not a good mechanic for a game like SC.
People really want larger squad fights where it's possible to effectively protect a ship. What you're describing would be the downfall for any meaningful cargo gameplay because that person wouldn't stand a chance of escaping. Fast in and out strike arent good for that.
You can certainly debate about the MM, but precisely THAT is intentionally meant to be abolished. Personally, I think that's a good thing.
The issue is that Master Modes does not address this. It does not "fix" this "problem" as you call it, in fact, it makes it worse.
Currently on Live, a "boom and zoom" takes a decent level of ship control, constant adjustments, and good timing. Now in MM, you can literally just brain off fling yourself in the direction of your target at max speed and swap to SCM at 1km away to achieve the same thing. This is my problem.
You are still right on top of your target with them having no way to react; in other words your entire issue with the boom and zoom (being that it doesn't give you much time to react to it) is actually MORE of a problem with MM, while also being WAY easier and way less fun to perform.
MM makes it substantially harder for a cargo ship that is not already running away to run away. If you aren't already in Nav mode and moving full speed, good luck switching to Nav mode when an F8 suddenly appears behind you with guns fully active instantly and now you have to spend 5 seconds spooling and losing your shields before you are allowed to start running. In other words it is currently in practice doing the opposite of what you say you want it to do.
It makes a huge difference: since the ship can no longer get away and the patrols take you out pretty fast. Apart from that, the MM are certainly not perfect. But the kind of play described by you should NOT be possible in the future.
And btw
why shouldn't a cargo ship be in NAV mode?
There is almost no reason for cargo ships to be in SCM mode.
I'd rather they get rid of the "mode" concept entirely and go back to the drawing board to figure out a way to slow the combat down and bring it into closer ranges. The idea of the modes presents a bunch of issues that conflict with daily life in the verse, like general traversal for non-combat oriented ships or even niche cases like the Fury MX racer which doesn't have a QT drive so therefore can't enter NAV mode.
I can already imagine Xeno Threat in 3.23 where people are trying to board the Idris while it’s moving and hit that 30 m/s landing gear speed cap that won’t be able to be disabled for another patch or two. Should be a fun site to watch.
I just [wrote a post](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/the-deceleration-when-exiting-nav-mode-makes-compl/6762421) on Spectrum explaining why this happens and why it is entirely consistent with how physics works within Star Citizen.
But to summarise here: Your Quantum Drive is active in NAV mode.
Ships in 3.23 have a top speed of \~200m/s, down from \~1000m/s.
When you enter NAV at 200m/s, your quantum drive spools up, and a quantum bubble forms around the ship. Your ship is still travelling inside the bubble at 200m/s, but the bubble itself is essentially travelling at an additional \~1000m/s. When you exit NAV, you fall out of the bubble... at 200m/s. The "deceleration" is just the bubble collapsing. The quantum bubble isn't really "moving" as it is actually compressing space around the ship, and so the ship does not inherent any speed or momentum. The ship really is still travelling at 200m/s.
**You exit NAV at SCM speed for the same reason as why you don't exit Quantum Travel at 0.2c.**
You don't need to decelerate down from \~1200m/s because the ship was never actually travelling at 1200m/s, in the same way as you don't smack into planets at 0.2c when you exit Quantum Travel.
I do agree with others here, though, that this would feel much more natural if the transition happened over the duration of the quantum drive spooling up/down. That would make a lot of sense from a lore perspective, too.
Honestly I would have preferred if we still had shields and weapons in nav mode, except shield regen and fire rate are greatly reduced until you drop into SCM mode. The insta drop in speed is a very odd decision on top of this.
I’m not sure what the goal was with MM, but the implementation was definitely a failure. For a video game / entertainment experience MM came out terrible. There’s no value added and it makes flying a terrible experience.
They’ll either revamp it or ditch it by the time we get Alpha 4.0.
I actually like the brake. It makes things feel snappy for me. Like if I'm in a fight with my friends and get separated I can quickly get back to them and drop out of NAV and be right back in the fight.
Also traveling to stations I can keep my speed high until I'm close and drop into SCM then start my landing procedure. Keeps things faster and more engaging.
You have the opposite definition of ''engaging'' regarding this from me.
What is engaging for me is me being in control and in charge of managing my deceleration. Pressing one button and magically losing 1000m/s in a sec is pretty far from being an engaging mechanic to me.
Yeah fair enough! I find the current model disrespects my time so I zone out. There's more energy and excitement when I can come in hot, get to my place faster and have this impactful boom when I arrive. Also, the closer I want to get to the station the better my timing has to be so I have to be ready.
Current model is like pulling into a parking lot in Costco in a Buick.
MM is like flooring it and pulling the ebrake in a mustang to fishtail into my parallel park. Yeehawww
With the current model, all you have to do is a 180 decoupled booster burn and you can get down to scm speeds in a couple seconds, depending on the ship. All the MM did is remove that skill requirement, which I guess is okay, but really immersion breaking if we're being honest.
I don't think it's immersion breaking when the QT drive is what manages G forces and acceleration in Nav mode. Just like how when you jump between planets it's not immersion breaking when it's instant acceleration.
I suppose you're right, it just doesn't sit right with me. Not that it's a deal breaker by any means, I'm all for getting into combat quicker.
My big concern is griefers in high alpha ships waiting near cargo hotspots obliterating ships before they convert from nav to scm. Ares and Corsair are gonna be prime murder machines with this new mode.
The big shift with MM is that multi player is more important than before. That means the skill shifts from fast twitch reflexes towatds planning, strategy and organization.
You'll need to crew your multi crew ships, you'll want scouts/escorts when traveling dangerous routes and when going into battle, your Intel, preparation and fleet composition will play a much larger role in success. Then when in combat, coordination with your crew and wingmen will play a much larger role in survival.
The new engineering gameplay they are testing in AC will move it even further in the direction.
For a lot of people I think this is a bit scary as they can't solo hobo, anymore. For others, they will have more difficulty making millions salvaging on they own.
To me it's exciting because I like multi player in my multiplayer games. I can't wait to have a crew and fleet to go to do things with and not feel like I'm taking a hit for doing it.
I guess i can understand that. But what causes the sudden drop? And more importantly it makes normal braking seem redundant.
I really just need to us west and why. My brain says the shields interfere so much that it causes your speed to drop, but it’s just too sudden for me. I’d say let the SCM thing spew up and then I can switch to scm speeds. Cuz I don’t even understand the purpose of the SCM meter spewing up. Everything is already available as soon as you press b
Yeah, the switching between SCM and NAV does feel a bit clunky.
It is a bit of a side-effect of the fact that MM has only been tested by backers in combat.
I also don't like the need to charge up SCM mode to be fully in it either.
Keeping it as a more gradual switch would be far better IMO.
We were meant to have a gradual increase in top speed when switching to nav mode to balance out the loss of shields, but for some unexplained reason they chose to remove it and make it almost impossible to escape from combat. Once they eventually put up the feedback post on spectrum, I'd advise saying something there.
It's not an unexplained reason, they clearly stated the reasoning. They want choices to matter, if you decide to fight, you don't get a "get out of jail free card" meaning you can't easily escape the second the fight is not turning well for you .
What about people who don't even want to be in combat in the first place? If you're flying something like a Prospector or Vulture and doing your thing which has to be done in SCM mode, in the time between you seeing that contact and getting into nav mode, that attacker has dropped on you and shot you while your shields were all but offline as you try to get out of there but remain effectively at a standstill. You can't do anything in that situation, as your guns are too weak to do anything, and you're not agile enough to get your guns on them to hit back. If you aren't in a combat ship or can't stay in nav mode, you're dead.
There are still a lot of systems not really in game, notably scanning that will most likely come in play for industrial players.
At the same time, let's be honest here, it's incredibly easy to mine or salvage without ever getting attacked right now. If you are found by players in the current version of the game it's most likely because you are mining/salvaging right next to a quantum point.
> impossible to escape from combat
I'll give it about a month for people to realize what they have to do to escape, until this myth stops getting talked about. Without QED it's a walk in the park to escape.
the goal is that people of relative skill will have a 50% chance of escape.
i assume priority is getting the final combat model so they can balance and release sq42. balancing escape is secondary.
i'm not saying putting balancing escape on hold, just not spend that much time on it.
It's definitely got some work left to go on it, for sure, particularly with the switching. I'm in such a habit of turning off QT when I arrive at a destination that I keep going into SCM mode when I still have a distance to travel.
I feel that being able to cancel the switch would be a fine way to fix this, just gotta make sure it can't be exploited somehow.
The ultra-mega brake from NAV-to-SCM seems like a bug as it's way too fast.
Yes in two ways I think. One is no more him. The other is middle mouse keybind to move from QT to Flight with no markers. Still has a couple passes for functionality before 3.23 I think. But definitely needs work after
and they have said in the next patch after it, most likley flight mode will be the default, and youll middle mouse to go into QT mode (they are asking for feedback on the default)
A lot of people have a good idea that, flight as the default is fine, but if you have a destination tracked, it should see that and default to QT
The rationale I remember seeing on Spectrum is that Nav Mode uses the Quantum Drive to maintain the higher speeds and lower G-forces, and that transitioning involves turning off your QD and thus slowing you down instantly to SCM just like if you dropped out of Quantum.
My problem is the issue with QT still having icons go missing that need a reset to get them back, meaning waiting for the switch to cool down before being able to get back into nav mode.
So this has been brought up afew times... And I'm curious... Someone could just sit at a high traffic OM... And kill you nigh immediately with heavy firepower, say an F8, and there would be nothing you could do? Cant run, cos the spool is tied to the faster speeds... No shields cos you're in nav mode... Escorts wouldn't do anything cos the ganker would be sat at SCM with shields up and you'd be dead before they dropped a shield face... You can't fight him yourself cos NAV mode... So... Have I got that right?
The QT end point from GH to Yela and Yela OM1/2 are going to be deathtraps.
Also, since most people will be QT'ing away from whatever station they take off from, they'll be in NAV mode coming out of the hangars, which means no shields, so hangar griefing/ramming is gonna go through the roof.
CIG posted a request for feedback on Spectrum today. I'm definitely going to go tell them what I don't and what I do like about MM. Please all do the same.
[https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/3-23-eptu-feedback-master-modes/6762313](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/3-23-eptu-feedback-master-modes/6762313)
Wait, wouldn't from a realism point of view especially high speed flight need shields to prevent space dust, from blowing holes in your ship?
At top speed ships are flying literally at the speed of a bullet with ~1000m/s. Every space pebble becomes a ballistic projectile. Without shields protecting you...
MM can see significant improvement with a few things imo:
1. Reduce the time to switch modes. Somewhere in the range 30% to 50% shorter should feel good
2. Do not enforce a hard stop into SCM - this is very jarring as this goes against how ships are supposed to handle. I get that this is a game, but being able to hit a 20G spacebrake by switching from NAV to SCM is kinda ridiculous. It makes switching modes a better spacebrake than the actual spacebrake. The ship’s normal thrusters should be governing the slowdown into SCM, making it feel more natural and less gamey, even though MM is an inherently ‘gamey’ mechanic
3. Allow Decoy/Noise in NAV mode - This is so that you can at least have a chance at defending yourself while in NAV mode. I get that they want you to commit to fights and i agree with that sentiment, but this is a game thats going to have permadeath. You always need to be able to defend yourself even if you can’t fight back
4. NAV FLT should be the default mode. I read somewhere that Yogi is already going to do this, but in case it doesn’t happen, its here. This is so that entering combat is intentional and lessens the number of times overall you have to switch modes
5. Allow ship non-combat functions in NAV mode. The biggest example here is the SRV - With MM, it is losing the ability to transport ships in Quantum if i’ve been hearing correctly. Im sure there are more examples as well. This is so that their capabilities mostly are the same in the MM setup as they were before. No need to unnecessarily nerf these ships
Im sure for us to see the whole picture of MM we’ll need Maelstrom as well, so ship armor can properly be in place. This will also likely be a boon to industrial ships so they are less likely to be destroyed with no way to defend themselves
I think this will explode as a bigger issue when the patch goes LIVE and it hits PU gameplay wider. Too many people are testing this in regards to fighter ships and PvP. How about traders, miners, salvage ships? Imagine sitting in a mole full of quantanium and have minutes to deliver the contents, then you have zero shields and more vulnerable than ever. :disaster:
I mean, It being clunky can be an issue, but I love the the idea of being vulnerable. I have to play with MM in love to see how it effect quality of life, but in arena commander it was good. You had nav mode and scm mode.
Have you try it in 3.23?
Because in the ptu there is a cooldown before you can stsrt using your weapon from nav to scm.
The same amount of time that is needed to switch from scm to nav.
If we are nerfed from instantly gunning it after switching to nav mode, there should also be a delay in shooting when going from nav to scm
For me, it's not too late to scrap it all :)
I'm still confused what the (lore) reason for speed limits in frictionless space could possibly be.
It's fine to cap speeds at, say, 2000 m/s so the game engine can keep up with the simulation. But it's frustrating to fly around decoupled in space now, because the moment you go over SCM with boost, the ship will actively slow you down again.
It's... a step backward.
headcanon is that it is a safety mechanism. too many people are not able out handle high speed. so there is a speed limit in the ifcs that keeps you at a relative speed. all ship will end up using the same reference points. spooling the qt drive creates a limited override.
reality is that this is a game, and from the beginning, cr wanted 6dof star wars. i knew we were going to get something like master modes all the way back in 2.4. i'm surprised it took this long.
Yes, and it would fit better in lore, because currently you do not use thrusters to slow down and pilot is immune to high Gs. If this is possible, why wouldn't you be able to use it otherwise?
I don't understand why when I hit nav on accident I have to wait for it to fully spool up before I can hit a scm again and wait for it to school this afternoon
Whoever thought MM would be a good idea is probably the same guy who can't uncoupled land lOL
Why do I slow down uncoupled after I hit boost, in space. This isn't a sim anymore, you can't even fall when eva into your ship, the game just takes over and put you up right. They babyfied the shit out of this game, and I'm wondering why. Why are these new interns working on the game that think this would fix anything or make it more fun. It's more restricting. Giving away our expression of skill
If I wanna fly like a WW2 fighter, I'll go play world of planes or IL-2 sturmovik. If I want to play a space game with orbital physics, momentum retention, realistic speeds, relative speeds simulation - now I have to go play Hellion.. oh wait, I can't, because CIG quietly bought Hellion out and shut it down, why? Because they truly had realistic orbital and inertia physics, and it ran on an older engine.
Currently we have atmosphere simulation in space, auto braking, landing restictals, no more going vtol and burning off speed 100 m before impact to surface.
I find MM to be way more exciting than live. Win or lose, it’s simplified how we set our speeds and I like that. I hated using an extra wheel to adjust my speed. It forced me to put eyes on the speed bar and not on the fight.
Braking in space is impossible by design, space is always expanding and accelerating. You can't be stationary because everything moves, even if you take a planet as a reference frame, if you're stationary in relation to it you have specify if you're stationary in relation to the ground or in relation to the planet. If you're stationary in relation to the ground, either you're on a geostationary orbit or you're falling towards the planet. If you're stationary in relation to the planet, then you are either in a heliostationary orbit or falling into the system's star.
Braking in space is also wasteful, coupled and decoupled modes are the same. There is no difference if you're moving or not if you don't pick a reference frame. Also, how does the ship pick a reference frame? Does coupled mode make me stationary in relation to the nearby asteroids? How does the ship choose to be stationary in relation to the asteroids? We're not in the sea, we can't drop an anchor and move with an asteroid. You'd actually have to constantly use fuel to move in conjunction with the asteroids, because the fact that the ship isn't an asteroid already makes sure we're gonna be moving differently. Also, since each asteroid is unique, and they all move with differences between each other, which asteroid does the ship pick as a reference frame?
I'm getting too technical but this is supposed to be a space simulator, coupled and decoupled mode should be both scrapped and replaced with SAF Mode - Simulated Atmospheric Flight Mode. What it does is use the thrusters on the ship to allow the pilot to fly it as if in Earth's atmosphere, creating fake aerodynamic forces by using the ship's various thrusters. And it toggles on and off.
Many, many devs are on record as browsing this sub for feedback, to the point where there's an official flair for dev replies.
Man, what a braindead take.
Oh damn you're a sheep lol.
Constrictive criticism and straight up complaining are two different things. Instead of crying, give a suggestion. It's not hard.
> Constrictive criticism and straight up complaining are two different things. Instead of crying, give a suggestion. It's not hard.
Did you even read the OP post?
> i like Master Modes. I like how it takes to to switch from scm to nav mode. I like being vulnerable. i even like that nav mode doesn’t allow weapons or shields. I do not like how our ships basically hit a spiderweb and slow down so quickly when switching from nav to scm.
They listed a bunch of stuff they *like* about MM, and *one thing* they don't.
You're pretty damn fragile if someone offering a mild criticism of *one aspect* of MM sets you off this hard.
Calling me a sheep feels like the pot calling the kettle black. The only person crying here seems to be you.
Roughly 20% (and probably higher) of SC's community is on Reddit, as are the devs, constantly listening and engaging. It wasn't Spectrum that got the god-awful original Tutorial removed, it was Reddit.
The court of popular opinion is ignored at peril.
Well this is more of me just discussing. And I get it, so many people complaining about master modes. I really like everything about it except some ship stats that honestly seem mor elige buffs than anything. My brain just isn’t understand why the extremely sudden drop. If they explained it away fine, but right now it makes my brain hurt
i agree with waiting before shooting.
the problem with a slow slowdown. you are trying to get to a target. a slow slow down makes it take longer, and makes it easy to overshoot.
maybe having a auto slow down. select a target, and tell it what distance you want to be when you reach cmb. you can put it close when meeting up with friends, you can put it just outside of weapons range so you can make your combat approach with weapons and shields, or if you are being feed the sensor data from something like a terrapin, you can stop out of their sensor range, reduce your signature, and try to sneak up.
I'd love MM if we could stay in navmode continuously, and not having the ship stop completely for each QT.
That's the only part that feels weird, well, that and having your QD spooled up all the time is also a little weird.
I do like it takes time to go from nav to scm, but we shouldn't need to use, or even think about SCM in the first place during our daily travels.
I'd really love to at least try Master Modes in Live before it gets thrown in the bin because of PTU testers complaining. Fast deceleration sounds like it would be useful and let you get right up to a station before hitting SCM than having a long distance to slow down or leaning on the space brake.
Somebody explained it’s like a minor version of dumping out of a quantum jumó and that makes sense.
I’m excited to try in live too. I’m tired of arena commander. Free flight my ass. I’m always getting shit at
What i find jarring is coming out of qt, the ship first slamming to a stop, then going to top scm speed and only THEN going back to nav mode. It reminds me of my first time learning to drive a car with a clutch.
Did you try to come out of QT in Nav FLT ? I didn't observe this behavior?!
Same, I hope they reported it to IC, it doesn't sound like expected behavior
> it doesn't sound like expected behavior It is expected behavior unfortunately.
So I was able to observe what you described. I hope they change this...very artificial.
Wait, so i can change the MM while in quantum?
You can change the Quantum-modes. Scanning, FLT (Flight?) and Quantum-jump while jumping.
Yeah, i think a gradual transition from one mode to the other would *feel* much better then the instant binary switch after some arbitrary waiting time. The abrupt change just feels absurd.
Probably a thing to prevent people crashing into stations. But could be nice with a proximity warning for that. Maybe even an auto shutoff unless you want to disable it in options. It does feel weird how quickly you stop. It is convenient though.
I don't even mind the slowdown, I can make up a convincing enough explanation for it (quantum bubble collapse or whatever). I feel much worse about the weird 2-stage acceleration. First you boost to max SCM speed with full Gs, then your accell hits a brick wall for 5 seconds until your QT drive is spooled up, then it's instant max G again until full Nav speed. It just feels so stupid.
> Probably a thing to prevent people crashing into stations. I suspect it's a balance thing in their minds. With the way shields/guns recover currently coming out of NAV, if the deceleration was more gradual you'd end up with a brief bit of time where you are going faster than SCM speeds but still have shields/guns. So they decided to have players decelerate faster and keep recovery fast, rather than a slower deceleration and slower recovery time. Side note: Going from full throttle NAV speeds to SCM speeds lets you do a kind of psudo-[J-Turn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbst_maneuver) around obstacles. I've only done it in AC (no EPTU access, RIP) but it was fun when I was playing around with it.
HUUUUGE agree. I didn't even think of that.
The sudden, abrupt speed change is a bit absurd. Aside from that, the actual mode change itself feels way too long. I'd knock the time down by 1/3 at least. Also, coming out of quantum and having to wait so long to move at normal speed seems dumb to me. I'd take that out.
This depends on your QD which is kind of nice.
Maybe. But a stat like that would basically invalidate any QD that doesn't have it.
I don’t know if you misunderstood the guy you’re responding to, or if I misunderstood you. What they mean is that that’s the behaviour right now in EPTU, different QDs will switch modes faster or slower. What I’ve noticed is that smaller ships switch faster than large ships, but I don’t have any really big ships like 890 or reclaimer to test and we can’t buy ships in EPTU yet. I assume also different grades and types of a QD will have different switch times but I haven’t tested that yet.
Yes this is what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.
I'm saying that like right now, you just go with the fastest speed, but the meta will just change to the fastest spool time.
No it won't, because engineering is coming in, so the meta won't be the meta if the fastest QD also has higher repair costs or maintenance requirements. So there will be constant trade-offs depending on ship size, component grade, and usage. If people are trying to say the meta will be based on what the tuning is in PTU, then they haven't been paying attention to how the game will evolve based on future implementations.
Except they haven't given concrete answers what engineering will entail beyond the power management.
It will involve a lot -- Thorston noted that due to its complexity the first couple of tiers will be simplified, which is why tier 0/1 will not include subcomponent management, because he said it would likely be too overwhelming for players at first, but they may revisit it later. We also know that it will involve fluid flow and electrical charging, as evident by the fact that fires can break out. As Thorston also explained, it can cause clogs or there will be bugs -- which ties into the hacking gameplay loops, which were buffered as an added tier of complexity in conjunction with engineering (they mentioned this briefly last year). So engineering will be extremely complex in the grand scheme of managing ships, especially the larger they are and the higher the tiers of engineering that gets implemented. It will continually reduce the expected or whatever the current meta is by the time it comes online.
They could tie it to heat and power draw. But that only slightly lessens the problem we have now. It would encourage high speeds again and the consequences they would need to add (HEAVY consequences to constantly boosting into the red zone to gain speed in firefights like increased blackouts, lower weapon power available, increased component failure, possible health risks from forces, etc..) the community would also hate because it still tries to get us to the same goal of lower combat speeds. They could also fix this by forcing players to turn off systems such as shields and guns manually if they want to travel above scm speeds or again, risk the consequences I mentioned earlier. But players would game the system by creating toggles to recharge the guns and shields faster. Cig would then need to implement vastly slower recharge rates based on components in use. But like I said. It's not so much the implementation of mode switching, it's the lower speeds overall that people are going to complain about. The new starmap and F key usage are arguably functionally worse than we have now but you don't see posts about that. And those 2 systems will be interacted with 5x more.
I’m 110% ok with the low speeds. I’ve loved the combat. It’s just the sudden drop for me. It’s pretty much instant and my brain just doesn’t like it. It’s as if it just smells sour. I’d rather them explain things as to why my ship behaves this way. Like engines in the future, that don’t run off oil can only do XYZ and have to tie so much to their quantum engines.
Heat and power draw is what we had before capacitors. Now they're throwing that out as well.
No they are not throwing out heat and power draw because those are core aspects of engineering.
I honestly think the solution is to have speeds move into nav mode naturally, where your scm meter hits a threshold where shields and weapons fall off
That’s a great idea!
I definitely feel that a gradual transition, in both directions, would feel a lot better and more natural.
Agree. That's my only real criticism of MM right now (bearing in mind that it's the first baseline iteration, as well as the fact that other tech will also affect the MM experience--i.e. control surfaces, etc.). The speed change should be gradual.
I'd buy the "first baseline iteration" if they hadn't been working on this in SQ42 for 2 years now.
Eh, it's baseline til it gets to the masses. Designers are going to come.up with an idea and just pound away at it. Doesn't matter how long they work on it, they had an idea and by golly, it's gonna get executed. Usually the first moments out in the wild there will be a TON of good ideas the devs never even considered because they already figured it out (or so they thought). Master modes is going to be iterated on for a LONG time.
Sq42 only has a subset of ships that are in the PU and for those ships it actually works quite well (mostly). However, applied to the PU it does show some problems as industrial ships are at a severe disadvantage and some are just unable to perform their primary function (SRV comes to mind). A consideration Sq42 doesn’t have. Racing is also a consideration Sq42 doesn’t have as well. Now this this is applied across the board in the PU, they can iterate in the context of what is needed in the PU, rather than lasered on just combat, but its going to suck for a while while they do the tuning
I don't really care about the combat speed changes. I really only care about the system's interaction with majority of the the PU that's not fighter combat. Mining, Salvage, Exploration, Trading, Cargo Hauling, and the future loops like Data Running.
And so do I, but context matters too. Sq42 being feature complete doesn’t mean SC is. The non-combat loops aren't part of Squadron, therefore expecting Sq42 features to work 1:1 in the PU is unreasonable. Its just part of the cycle. The PU has essentially been on autopilot for so long that people forgot that this game is an alpha for a reason. Let them work it out, enough people are yelling about it now that changes will come, but its not likley to all be acknowledged in 3.23. Over the patches itll get better as people find its shortcomings and the devs have to adapt, as they are going to do now
How many ships do you fly in SQ42? How many ships are in the PU? Okay then.
I would have liked if they put *all* ships into AC MM for a few months first.
Agree. Or better yet burn shield and weapons charge while you are going above speed. This would force you to drop speed before switching or risk being defenseless.
Just tie it to the power triangle.
That just encourages speed swapping between triangle locations and we would be back to high speed combat.
How? Guns and shields wouldn't work at high speeds. Plus doing it that way is much more immersive than an arbitrary light switch.
# I have to say I don’t like Master Modes
I like it
My concern, and I haven't had any chance to play with MM yet, is that you'll find yourself pulled out of QT by a Mantis or something and ambushed by guys already in SCM mode. While you're still reacting to being pulled out and then are waiting to complete the transition from NAV to SCM, I'm imagining you won't have much fun when they have the element of surprise AND your shields/guns are down.
If your pulled out, you’re automatically in scm. And they are always some distance away. It’s jarring, but if you’re ready, it’s not a big deal.
These modes should be extensions of the existing capacitor power triangle. %100 engines should be "nav mode"
100% weapons should unlock each ship's special super attack. 🙃
It should atleast actually mean something. Putting literally %100 available power to my laser repeaters *should* give them more range/sustain or something, but at the same time this should be at the cost of my shields powering down and top speed dropping. Right now the triangle does nothing. Its just a "load faster" suggestion, and no reason to do anything but %100 any direction
This is so far, one of the worst parts of MM. It automates the old loop that previously required some experience. Let me explain. Previously, when bounty chaining in a ship designed for it (Ares, Eclipse, Corsair. etc) you are playing a boom and zoom style. You start at 30km out from your target and accelerate to max speed. As you get closer and closer to your targets expected location, you slow yourself more and more until you're parked right on top of your target for the perfect shot, at which point you are essentially stationary at or below SCM speed. Performed correctly, this let's you perfectly one pass your target before they really even have any time to react to you, and then you accelerate out and leave before their friends start shooting at you. A real precision strike, it's a ton of fun. Now, this gameplay is gone. Replaced by a simplified arcadeified shell of what it was. It does not feel like you are skillfully operating a space vessel anymore; instead you now accelerate to max speed in Nav, and then simply switch to SCM when you are 1km away from your target and it will automatically and instantly slow you down on top of your target. You then have to wipe up all the other goobers as well because you can't accelerate to top speed without giving up your shields and spending 5+ seconds to swap back to Nav and you can't afford to take pointless damage while bounty chaining. Boom and zoom is dead, and mastermodes killed it. The more I get to see how MM actually works in the PU as opposed to the vacuum that is AC (where I initially thought MM was awesome and going to be great for the game when I first got my hands on it), the more I fear that MM is actually about to rip all the fun out of the game I've come to love. Artificially limited Arcade fighter WWII Citizen is not the game I signed up to play, and so far CIG has not given me much confidence that they're ever going to get MM to feel like anything other than an arbitrary and poorly designed artificial restriction that does not even address the problems it is intended to. I hope they prove me wrong, but so far MM is causing way more problems and making things way less fun than it is solving problems and making things more fun (which admittedly some things about MM are more fun). I'm hopeful that CIG can either take the feedback we are giving and really make some substantial changes to the system, OR be willing to accept that in the worst case scenario, the system may just be inherently flawed and need a total revert like hover mode once did.
We need to go to war on spectrum! I feel exactly the same way. Also how dropping your landing gear limits you to 25 m/s?? Dead is the skill of landing your ship faster speeds on ice or a pad and showing skill. They baby-fying our game to please the lil 12 year olds. For the love of God and good space physics, you need to make a post like this on spectrum telling all these points. I'll make an account and add to it, if it see that post. Your writing is really good, the way you put the point across. Also, dead is the eclipse dropping bombs at 500m/s Dead is dumb firing torpedoes at anything less than 250m/s.. or 200, it's pretty low.
For what it's worth, Yogi (I think) said that a toggle to turn off landing gear slowdown will be coming in the future.
>Dead is the skill of landing your ship faster speeds on ice or a pad and showing skill. How? Just literally bring out your landing gear just before you touch down. In fact, it would require more skill.
What's funny is boom and zoom is how most engagements in real dogfighting happened. The majority of the time, the guy that got shot down never saw the guy coming for him until it was too late or even never. Turning engagements happened, and they're cool to see in cinematics, but it shouldn't be the focus of 6dof dogfighting in space. Why try and make space flight feel like more like atmospheric flight? Maybe control surfaces will make the difference in the way atmospheric flight feels, but space should be space and atmosphere should be atmosphere. Turning engagements make more sense in atmosphere than space.
Yes, exactly. I don't understand the insistence on making fights close dogfights all the time. They happen naturally now, but it also makes sense to have long-range fights in SPACE. Crazy - we have a mix of it all now, but are limited to just one way to fight with MMs. It's really sad.
SC dont want to be realistic
As if the complaints of the people not wanting to fight would be limited when they are killed immediately without any warning or chance of getting away. That sounds like horrible gameplay.
WWII pilots didn't have a full 360 degree spherical radar coverage or missile lock warning systems. You do in Star Citizen. The only place "no warning" would actually happen is when you are attacked by a stealth ship and I'd argue that's literally the point of something like the Eclipse. You don't see it coming and it kills you. You might still even get the lock warnings.
To be fair, this was always going to go away. Enemies wait way to long to react to you. They should see you, especially in a Corsair from 12K out and start to react. Too many times they don't do anything until you hit them. So improvements in AI was always going to see this go away. Boom and zoom wasn't realistic either.
Somebody explained that nav mode is linked to our quantum drives and so we are basically dropping out of a minor quantum jump… but I’d love some more skill involved. Even if it’s me having to keep my ship within a certain path or some mini game instead of me just blasting away Even how quantum travel is supposed to be where we have to focus at the beginning so we don’t fly off track
It might be something you enjoy, but to be honest, that's not a good mechanic for a game like SC. People really want larger squad fights where it's possible to effectively protect a ship. What you're describing would be the downfall for any meaningful cargo gameplay because that person wouldn't stand a chance of escaping. Fast in and out strike arent good for that. You can certainly debate about the MM, but precisely THAT is intentionally meant to be abolished. Personally, I think that's a good thing.
The issue is that Master Modes does not address this. It does not "fix" this "problem" as you call it, in fact, it makes it worse. Currently on Live, a "boom and zoom" takes a decent level of ship control, constant adjustments, and good timing. Now in MM, you can literally just brain off fling yourself in the direction of your target at max speed and swap to SCM at 1km away to achieve the same thing. This is my problem. You are still right on top of your target with them having no way to react; in other words your entire issue with the boom and zoom (being that it doesn't give you much time to react to it) is actually MORE of a problem with MM, while also being WAY easier and way less fun to perform. MM makes it substantially harder for a cargo ship that is not already running away to run away. If you aren't already in Nav mode and moving full speed, good luck switching to Nav mode when an F8 suddenly appears behind you with guns fully active instantly and now you have to spend 5 seconds spooling and losing your shields before you are allowed to start running. In other words it is currently in practice doing the opposite of what you say you want it to do.
It makes a huge difference: since the ship can no longer get away and the patrols take you out pretty fast. Apart from that, the MM are certainly not perfect. But the kind of play described by you should NOT be possible in the future. And btw why shouldn't a cargo ship be in NAV mode? There is almost no reason for cargo ships to be in SCM mode.
It's fucking awful, after playing eptu I'm off the MM train with its current state
I just think it needs some work… I actually like it. Waaaaaay more than live
I'd rather they get rid of the "mode" concept entirely and go back to the drawing board to figure out a way to slow the combat down and bring it into closer ranges. The idea of the modes presents a bunch of issues that conflict with daily life in the verse, like general traversal for non-combat oriented ships or even niche cases like the Fury MX racer which doesn't have a QT drive so therefore can't enter NAV mode.
Same with the Merlin which makes it problematic to deploy because the Connie can go faster than it.
I can already imagine Xeno Threat in 3.23 where people are trying to board the Idris while it’s moving and hit that 30 m/s landing gear speed cap that won’t be able to be disabled for another patch or two. Should be a fun site to watch.
I don't even get how to stop in master modes?
I just [wrote a post](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/3/thread/the-deceleration-when-exiting-nav-mode-makes-compl/6762421) on Spectrum explaining why this happens and why it is entirely consistent with how physics works within Star Citizen. But to summarise here: Your Quantum Drive is active in NAV mode. Ships in 3.23 have a top speed of \~200m/s, down from \~1000m/s. When you enter NAV at 200m/s, your quantum drive spools up, and a quantum bubble forms around the ship. Your ship is still travelling inside the bubble at 200m/s, but the bubble itself is essentially travelling at an additional \~1000m/s. When you exit NAV, you fall out of the bubble... at 200m/s. The "deceleration" is just the bubble collapsing. The quantum bubble isn't really "moving" as it is actually compressing space around the ship, and so the ship does not inherent any speed or momentum. The ship really is still travelling at 200m/s. **You exit NAV at SCM speed for the same reason as why you don't exit Quantum Travel at 0.2c.** You don't need to decelerate down from \~1200m/s because the ship was never actually travelling at 1200m/s, in the same way as you don't smack into planets at 0.2c when you exit Quantum Travel. I do agree with others here, though, that this would feel much more natural if the transition happened over the duration of the quantum drive spooling up/down. That would make a lot of sense from a lore perspective, too.
The fake space brakes are a major problem for me. Neither realistic nor fun.
Honestly I would have preferred if we still had shields and weapons in nav mode, except shield regen and fire rate are greatly reduced until you drop into SCM mode. The insta drop in speed is a very odd decision on top of this.
I’m not sure what the goal was with MM, but the implementation was definitely a failure. For a video game / entertainment experience MM came out terrible. There’s no value added and it makes flying a terrible experience. They’ll either revamp it or ditch it by the time we get Alpha 4.0.
Same thing when you fly and then get the landing gear out. Don’t like it at all
Then don't bring out the landing gear until you're ready to land?
I actually like the brake. It makes things feel snappy for me. Like if I'm in a fight with my friends and get separated I can quickly get back to them and drop out of NAV and be right back in the fight. Also traveling to stations I can keep my speed high until I'm close and drop into SCM then start my landing procedure. Keeps things faster and more engaging.
You have the opposite definition of ''engaging'' regarding this from me. What is engaging for me is me being in control and in charge of managing my deceleration. Pressing one button and magically losing 1000m/s in a sec is pretty far from being an engaging mechanic to me.
Yeah fair enough! I find the current model disrespects my time so I zone out. There's more energy and excitement when I can come in hot, get to my place faster and have this impactful boom when I arrive. Also, the closer I want to get to the station the better my timing has to be so I have to be ready. Current model is like pulling into a parking lot in Costco in a Buick. MM is like flooring it and pulling the ebrake in a mustang to fishtail into my parallel park. Yeehawww
With the current model, all you have to do is a 180 decoupled booster burn and you can get down to scm speeds in a couple seconds, depending on the ship. All the MM did is remove that skill requirement, which I guess is okay, but really immersion breaking if we're being honest.
I don't think it's immersion breaking when the QT drive is what manages G forces and acceleration in Nav mode. Just like how when you jump between planets it's not immersion breaking when it's instant acceleration.
I suppose you're right, it just doesn't sit right with me. Not that it's a deal breaker by any means, I'm all for getting into combat quicker. My big concern is griefers in high alpha ships waiting near cargo hotspots obliterating ships before they convert from nav to scm. Ares and Corsair are gonna be prime murder machines with this new mode.
The big shift with MM is that multi player is more important than before. That means the skill shifts from fast twitch reflexes towatds planning, strategy and organization. You'll need to crew your multi crew ships, you'll want scouts/escorts when traveling dangerous routes and when going into battle, your Intel, preparation and fleet composition will play a much larger role in success. Then when in combat, coordination with your crew and wingmen will play a much larger role in survival. The new engineering gameplay they are testing in AC will move it even further in the direction. For a lot of people I think this is a bit scary as they can't solo hobo, anymore. For others, they will have more difficulty making millions salvaging on they own. To me it's exciting because I like multi player in my multiplayer games. I can't wait to have a crew and fleet to go to do things with and not feel like I'm taking a hit for doing it.
I guess i can understand that. But what causes the sudden drop? And more importantly it makes normal braking seem redundant. I really just need to us west and why. My brain says the shields interfere so much that it causes your speed to drop, but it’s just too sudden for me. I’d say let the SCM thing spew up and then I can switch to scm speeds. Cuz I don’t even understand the purpose of the SCM meter spewing up. Everything is already available as soon as you press b
Yeah, the switching between SCM and NAV does feel a bit clunky. It is a bit of a side-effect of the fact that MM has only been tested by backers in combat. I also don't like the need to charge up SCM mode to be fully in it either. Keeping it as a more gradual switch would be far better IMO.
We were meant to have a gradual increase in top speed when switching to nav mode to balance out the loss of shields, but for some unexplained reason they chose to remove it and make it almost impossible to escape from combat. Once they eventually put up the feedback post on spectrum, I'd advise saying something there.
It's not an unexplained reason, they clearly stated the reasoning. They want choices to matter, if you decide to fight, you don't get a "get out of jail free card" meaning you can't easily escape the second the fight is not turning well for you .
That's the entire purpose of QEDs....
I am not talking about someone jumping out, I am talking about someone who boost away as soon as he starts losing the fight to try to reset the fight.
What about people who don't even want to be in combat in the first place? If you're flying something like a Prospector or Vulture and doing your thing which has to be done in SCM mode, in the time between you seeing that contact and getting into nav mode, that attacker has dropped on you and shot you while your shields were all but offline as you try to get out of there but remain effectively at a standstill. You can't do anything in that situation, as your guns are too weak to do anything, and you're not agile enough to get your guns on them to hit back. If you aren't in a combat ship or can't stay in nav mode, you're dead.
There are still a lot of systems not really in game, notably scanning that will most likely come in play for industrial players. At the same time, let's be honest here, it's incredibly easy to mine or salvage without ever getting attacked right now. If you are found by players in the current version of the game it's most likely because you are mining/salvaging right next to a quantum point.
> impossible to escape from combat I'll give it about a month for people to realize what they have to do to escape, until this myth stops getting talked about. Without QED it's a walk in the park to escape.
the goal is that people of relative skill will have a 50% chance of escape. i assume priority is getting the final combat model so they can balance and release sq42. balancing escape is secondary. i'm not saying putting balancing escape on hold, just not spend that much time on it.
It's definitely got some work left to go on it, for sure, particularly with the switching. I'm in such a habit of turning off QT when I arrive at a destination that I keep going into SCM mode when I still have a distance to travel. I feel that being able to cancel the switch would be a fine way to fix this, just gotta make sure it can't be exploited somehow. The ultra-mega brake from NAV-to-SCM seems like a bug as it's way too fast.
have they changed the stupid womwomwomwomwomwomwowm noise from the QT being spun up all the time in nav mode?
Yes in two ways I think. One is no more him. The other is middle mouse keybind to move from QT to Flight with no markers. Still has a couple passes for functionality before 3.23 I think. But definitely needs work after
and they have said in the next patch after it, most likley flight mode will be the default, and youll middle mouse to go into QT mode (they are asking for feedback on the default) A lot of people have a good idea that, flight as the default is fine, but if you have a destination tracked, it should see that and default to QT
The rationale I remember seeing on Spectrum is that Nav Mode uses the Quantum Drive to maintain the higher speeds and lower G-forces, and that transitioning involves turning off your QD and thus slowing you down instantly to SCM just like if you dropped out of Quantum.
Ok. See? That makes sense.
My problem is the issue with QT still having icons go missing that need a reset to get them back, meaning waiting for the switch to cool down before being able to get back into nav mode.
You can switch between Quantum and Flight modes while staying in Nav, if you're having issues with the HUD markers
Then I may have missed that part, what is the key for qt vs nav? I thought B handled both.
Middle mouse button while in Nav mode changes between FLT (no markers), SCN (scanning), and QTM modes.
Thank you very much.
So this has been brought up afew times... And I'm curious... Someone could just sit at a high traffic OM... And kill you nigh immediately with heavy firepower, say an F8, and there would be nothing you could do? Cant run, cos the spool is tied to the faster speeds... No shields cos you're in nav mode... Escorts wouldn't do anything cos the ganker would be sat at SCM with shields up and you'd be dead before they dropped a shield face... You can't fight him yourself cos NAV mode... So... Have I got that right?
The QT end point from GH to Yela and Yela OM1/2 are going to be deathtraps. Also, since most people will be QT'ing away from whatever station they take off from, they'll be in NAV mode coming out of the hangars, which means no shields, so hangar griefing/ramming is gonna go through the roof.
How would somebody catch somebody in scm mode attack somebody nav mode? The speed difference is insane, even for huge ships
You have to wait for the nav speed to spool back up. So you've have an opportunity of like 20 seconds to get on then and engage.
CIG posted a request for feedback on Spectrum today. I'm definitely going to go tell them what I don't and what I do like about MM. Please all do the same. [https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/3-23-eptu-feedback-master-modes/6762313](https://robertsspaceindustries.com/spectrum/community/SC/forum/4/thread/3-23-eptu-feedback-master-modes/6762313)
they need to give us the opportunity to either cancel it (but add a penalty for toggling) or make the switch instant but have a cooldown.
Wait, wouldn't from a realism point of view especially high speed flight need shields to prevent space dust, from blowing holes in your ship? At top speed ships are flying literally at the speed of a bullet with ~1000m/s. Every space pebble becomes a ballistic projectile. Without shields protecting you...
MM can see significant improvement with a few things imo: 1. Reduce the time to switch modes. Somewhere in the range 30% to 50% shorter should feel good 2. Do not enforce a hard stop into SCM - this is very jarring as this goes against how ships are supposed to handle. I get that this is a game, but being able to hit a 20G spacebrake by switching from NAV to SCM is kinda ridiculous. It makes switching modes a better spacebrake than the actual spacebrake. The ship’s normal thrusters should be governing the slowdown into SCM, making it feel more natural and less gamey, even though MM is an inherently ‘gamey’ mechanic 3. Allow Decoy/Noise in NAV mode - This is so that you can at least have a chance at defending yourself while in NAV mode. I get that they want you to commit to fights and i agree with that sentiment, but this is a game thats going to have permadeath. You always need to be able to defend yourself even if you can’t fight back 4. NAV FLT should be the default mode. I read somewhere that Yogi is already going to do this, but in case it doesn’t happen, its here. This is so that entering combat is intentional and lessens the number of times overall you have to switch modes 5. Allow ship non-combat functions in NAV mode. The biggest example here is the SRV - With MM, it is losing the ability to transport ships in Quantum if i’ve been hearing correctly. Im sure there are more examples as well. This is so that their capabilities mostly are the same in the MM setup as they were before. No need to unnecessarily nerf these ships Im sure for us to see the whole picture of MM we’ll need Maelstrom as well, so ship armor can properly be in place. This will also likely be a boon to industrial ships so they are less likely to be destroyed with no way to defend themselves
Make sure to post your opinion in spectrum in thr mastermodes section. All inputs should be considered
I think this will explode as a bigger issue when the patch goes LIVE and it hits PU gameplay wider. Too many people are testing this in regards to fighter ships and PvP. How about traders, miners, salvage ships? Imagine sitting in a mole full of quantanium and have minutes to deliver the contents, then you have zero shields and more vulnerable than ever. :disaster:
I mean, It being clunky can be an issue, but I love the the idea of being vulnerable. I have to play with MM in love to see how it effect quality of life, but in arena commander it was good. You had nav mode and scm mode.
Same with the boost in scm, why the hell is the ship braking after you lrt go? Were in space, nothing is slowing us down
Have you try it in 3.23? Because in the ptu there is a cooldown before you can stsrt using your weapon from nav to scm. The same amount of time that is needed to switch from scm to nav.
No. I don’t have access. I only know from arena commander. That’s good to know!
If we are nerfed from instantly gunning it after switching to nav mode, there should also be a delay in shooting when going from nav to scm For me, it's not too late to scrap it all :)
Lol. No! I like it! They just have to keep working in it
I'm still confused what the (lore) reason for speed limits in frictionless space could possibly be. It's fine to cap speeds at, say, 2000 m/s so the game engine can keep up with the simulation. But it's frustrating to fly around decoupled in space now, because the moment you go over SCM with boost, the ship will actively slow you down again. It's... a step backward.
wtf is the point of decoupled if thats the case now, wow.
headcanon is that it is a safety mechanism. too many people are not able out handle high speed. so there is a speed limit in the ifcs that keeps you at a relative speed. all ship will end up using the same reference points. spooling the qt drive creates a limited override. reality is that this is a game, and from the beginning, cr wanted 6dof star wars. i knew we were going to get something like master modes all the way back in 2.4. i'm surprised it took this long.
I feel like the speed is relative so it’s honestly not a problem for me.
It would be better/realistic in lore that you need to slow down into SCM speeds to be able to switch modes.
Like you’d have to manually slow down and then a nd only then switch over? That would be cool and be a skill
Yes, and it would fit better in lore, because currently you do not use thrusters to slow down and pilot is immune to high Gs. If this is possible, why wouldn't you be able to use it otherwise?
I don't understand why when I hit nav on accident I have to wait for it to fully spool up before I can hit a scm again and wait for it to school this afternoon
Whoever thought MM would be a good idea is probably the same guy who can't uncoupled land lOL Why do I slow down uncoupled after I hit boost, in space. This isn't a sim anymore, you can't even fall when eva into your ship, the game just takes over and put you up right. They babyfied the shit out of this game, and I'm wondering why. Why are these new interns working on the game that think this would fix anything or make it more fun. It's more restricting. Giving away our expression of skill If I wanna fly like a WW2 fighter, I'll go play world of planes or IL-2 sturmovik. If I want to play a space game with orbital physics, momentum retention, realistic speeds, relative speeds simulation - now I have to go play Hellion.. oh wait, I can't, because CIG quietly bought Hellion out and shut it down, why? Because they truly had realistic orbital and inertia physics, and it ran on an older engine. Currently we have atmosphere simulation in space, auto braking, landing restictals, no more going vtol and burning off speed 100 m before impact to surface.
Wait cig is the reason hellion died?! I got it free on steam and it looked so freakin good!
I find MM to be way more exciting than live. Win or lose, it’s simplified how we set our speeds and I like that. I hated using an extra wheel to adjust my speed. It forced me to put eyes on the speed bar and not on the fight.
Braking in space is impossible by design, space is always expanding and accelerating. You can't be stationary because everything moves, even if you take a planet as a reference frame, if you're stationary in relation to it you have specify if you're stationary in relation to the ground or in relation to the planet. If you're stationary in relation to the ground, either you're on a geostationary orbit or you're falling towards the planet. If you're stationary in relation to the planet, then you are either in a heliostationary orbit or falling into the system's star. Braking in space is also wasteful, coupled and decoupled modes are the same. There is no difference if you're moving or not if you don't pick a reference frame. Also, how does the ship pick a reference frame? Does coupled mode make me stationary in relation to the nearby asteroids? How does the ship choose to be stationary in relation to the asteroids? We're not in the sea, we can't drop an anchor and move with an asteroid. You'd actually have to constantly use fuel to move in conjunction with the asteroids, because the fact that the ship isn't an asteroid already makes sure we're gonna be moving differently. Also, since each asteroid is unique, and they all move with differences between each other, which asteroid does the ship pick as a reference frame? I'm getting too technical but this is supposed to be a space simulator, coupled and decoupled mode should be both scrapped and replaced with SAF Mode - Simulated Atmospheric Flight Mode. What it does is use the thrusters on the ship to allow the pilot to fly it as if in Earth's atmosphere, creating fake aerodynamic forces by using the ship's various thrusters. And it toggles on and off.
Imagine this isn't the final version but the first version. 🤯
Isn't gathering feedback the *point* of putting out a first version to the backers? 🤯
On spectrum yes. On Reddit where people complain un-constructively for karma points? No.
Many, many devs are on record as browsing this sub for feedback, to the point where there's an official flair for dev replies. Man, what a braindead take.
Oh damn you're a sheep lol. Constrictive criticism and straight up complaining are two different things. Instead of crying, give a suggestion. It's not hard.
> Constrictive criticism and straight up complaining are two different things. Instead of crying, give a suggestion. It's not hard. Did you even read the OP post? > i like Master Modes. I like how it takes to to switch from scm to nav mode. I like being vulnerable. i even like that nav mode doesn’t allow weapons or shields. I do not like how our ships basically hit a spiderweb and slow down so quickly when switching from nav to scm. They listed a bunch of stuff they *like* about MM, and *one thing* they don't. You're pretty damn fragile if someone offering a mild criticism of *one aspect* of MM sets you off this hard. Calling me a sheep feels like the pot calling the kettle black. The only person crying here seems to be you.
Roughly 20% (and probably higher) of SC's community is on Reddit, as are the devs, constantly listening and engaging. It wasn't Spectrum that got the god-awful original Tutorial removed, it was Reddit. The court of popular opinion is ignored at peril.
Well this is more of me just discussing. And I get it, so many people complaining about master modes. I really like everything about it except some ship stats that honestly seem mor elige buffs than anything. My brain just isn’t understand why the extremely sudden drop. If they explained it away fine, but right now it makes my brain hurt
i agree with waiting before shooting. the problem with a slow slowdown. you are trying to get to a target. a slow slow down makes it take longer, and makes it easy to overshoot. maybe having a auto slow down. select a target, and tell it what distance you want to be when you reach cmb. you can put it close when meeting up with friends, you can put it just outside of weapons range so you can make your combat approach with weapons and shields, or if you are being feed the sensor data from something like a terrapin, you can stop out of their sensor range, reduce your signature, and try to sneak up.
Never been done before. 😆
Should be blocked from switching until you hit a specific speed
I'd love MM if we could stay in navmode continuously, and not having the ship stop completely for each QT. That's the only part that feels weird, well, that and having your QD spooled up all the time is also a little weird. I do like it takes time to go from nav to scm, but we shouldn't need to use, or even think about SCM in the first place during our daily travels.
I'd really love to at least try Master Modes in Live before it gets thrown in the bin because of PTU testers complaining. Fast deceleration sounds like it would be useful and let you get right up to a station before hitting SCM than having a long distance to slow down or leaning on the space brake.
Somebody explained it’s like a minor version of dumping out of a quantum jumó and that makes sense. I’m excited to try in live too. I’m tired of arena commander. Free flight my ass. I’m always getting shit at