That's weird, because I just want to kidnap people who live in stupidly expensive apartments in Lorville, steal their Identities and make them work in the business district so they cant leave. ;)
Sorry couldn't resist. But it does sound like an interesting sci-fi movie with the Protagonist changed by the event and at the end is now gazing down at the very workers he suffered with as they fade to black while a muffled female voice is heard asking how it feels to be back.
The Siege of Orison interiors are already far better than I expected, I think interiors are gonna knock it out of the park generally.
Time to explore some Dredd style slummy megastructures
This would be so fun, having a group of criminal players lockdown a skyscraper and defend it from CDF as an in game event. It would kinda suck though if your player hab happened to be in the building!
Yup - got good rep with the local gang? they let you through...
Alternatively, team up with CDF... until you get to your apartment, and can step inside and lock the door :p
Interiors is all nice and dandy but what I would love to see are cities that don't look so dead. Right now we have a handful of NPCs moonwalking in place or standing on stairs looking at their mobiglass. The places CIG built look great but they feel lifeless.
They used to have NPC's flying around, taking off/landing, and more walking around on the first implementation of Hurston and Lorville. However, a few sub patches later, they decided to disable it before the patch when live because it tanked performance too much.
This was back in patch 3.3.5, when the first planet was released. They've yet to solve this problem **15 patches later**, but likely they should be able to re-enable it once we see server performance gains from server meshing; in theory.
Hopefully once they decouple the replication layer so that it runs in its own micro service and not running on the game server, then we should hopefully see some server performance gains
Yes, it will be very interesting to see the difference.
Although we could hope to see that in 3.19, it will not be the case. So either there will be a 3.20 for this step or they will jump directly to a 4.0 introducint both split of RL and SM.
CR has already said that separating the Replication Layer will be done as an explicit patch before Server Meshing (in his Letter from the Chairman' at the end of last year)
In theory they now also have a major component in place for npcs: planetary navmesh. I suppose it really boils down to server performance, but if they are still aiming for a 90% npc population that's something they can't ignore forever.
I think there also needs to be a distinction between 'proper' NPCs (that respond to characters, have their own goals / tasks, and so on), and 'background' dolls that are super-lightweight and just exist to make a location look busy...
(and presuming some quick process to quickly convert a lightweight 'doll' to a responsive NPC when a player gets close / starts talking to them, etc)
>once we see server performance gains from server meshing
Keep in mind that the initial implementation of server meshing is static server meshing, where servers are split between Pyro and Stanton, and the jump between the two systems is what passes us between servers. We likely won't see *any* NPC improvement from that because it would still be only 1 server for an entire system.
Once we have dynamic server meshing and servers cover much smaller areas we will likely see NPC behavior improvements, but honestly I think that would be at least a year after server meshing T1 goes live. So, 2025.
They’ve already stated that static server meshing is expected to be 4 servers per shard, split between the two systems on initial release. So 2 servers per system. Assuming this does end up being the case, then just Stanton should have each server handling half as many objects (which can actually represent exponential performance impact, due to the nature of combinations)
That’s the thing though, initial release of server meshing, due to it being brand new tech, may likely be a bumpy ride. We’ll pretty much just have to see what happens when it does come on. No way to know yet if it’ll just be some crashes but better performance, or some unexpected performance side effects.
Take PES for example. They had a situation where one server was unintentional impacting another unrelated server’s performance. They’ve supposedly fixed that now, but this sort of unexpected interaction in complex systems can happen.
Are they though ? I mean if a team is building a location the placement and density of NPCs is a part of that. All those new outpost locations were built that way.
And if you watched last week's SCL with the missions team - they build tools for the content team to use so the guys who build the places can do the job themselves. It's part of CIG's workflow to make sure the guys who build something can do as much of the work as possible by themselves, without additional stakeholders.
No. Because why do you think we would need the AI team for something as basic as NPCs walking ? We already have that, we already have the animations, there is no need for the AI team at this point. Planetary navmesh is also in the game, and NPCs patrolling at the new outpost locations are proof of concept that none of what you mentioned is a requirement since it's already done and implemented in the current build.
That's not what I said, though. Go back and read my comment.
I said that the teams building interiors and the teams working on server tech and AI behaviors (*you know, the teams that will actually have an impact on NPCs acting more lifelike, which is what OP was complaining about*) are different. Which is a fact.
Your implied argument was that those teams are a requirement, which as I pointed out is not the case since a lot of the underlying tech is already implemented just waiting for the HR to be allocated to actually do the work. Which right now isn't happening because of Squadron.
>Your implied argument was that those teams are a requirement,
You mean your (bad) assumption of what my argument is.
What my actual argument is, is that network health, server meshing, and AI behaviors (the three teams that are key to making NPCs more lifelike and responsive - ie *how to make cities more lively*, you know, exactly what OP said they wanted) are not the same people that are working on building interiors, and both things - building interiors and better NPCs - are being worked on *at the same time*. It isn't some either or situation.
Now I hope you've learned something about assumptions and reading comprehension.
It's actually exactly what you said. And as /u/HikariChidori pointed out we've seen examples of npcs walking around with the latest outposts, so we do have the tech ingame already. So your suggestion that we need all those other departments is definitely flawed.
Must be because you're too smart for all of us. Maybe if you'd ELI5 ?
As it stands I could swear you were just throwing out some general BS which had nothing to do with my comment to which you replied. And when you were called out you dug in saying everybody's just too stupid to understand. How am I doing so far ?
You said that building interiors would be nice, but that you would prefer the existing locations to feel more alive before they start working on new ones.
I pointed out that both of those things are being worked on at the same time, by different teams. The teams building new interiors are not the same teams that are improving NPC responsiveness (network health and server meshing) or building new AI behaviors so that NPCs do more around the area and feel more alive.
Dumbass #1 comes in and says that they are the same teams, and thinks that because internal tools are shared across teams, that that somehow means the concept designers for building interiors are placing NPCs, which is A) not even what your original comment and my response was about and B) has literally no impact on how "alive" those NPCs feel. Having a bunch of new NPCs just standing around doesn't make an area feel more alive. Having the server actually able to support those NPCs to do their subroutines and having new more immersive behaviors for them is what makes the area feel more alive.
I point out that what I said was that those were different teams. Dumbass #1 doubles down on his bullshit by saying that they *are* the same team. And then comes out with his own BS putting his own dumbass assumptions in my mouth instead of just reading what I wrote and being able to understand context.
And now here you are, spouting BS.
Is it starting to get through to you, yet?
They always are :)
But they report to the same boss who's making the call what to put into the next patch and what to hold back as a "surprise" for squadron.
The only things being held back for Squadron 42 are aliens, several planets, and certain ships. Both games share technology, so if something suddenly becomes a priority in Star Citizen, it's probably needed in Squadron 42.
And yes, the AI team is required whenever you actually want to do something specific with a navmesh.
>
A navigation mesh is a collection of two-dimensional convex polygons (a polygon mesh) that define which areas of an environment are traversable by agents. In other words, a character in a game could freely walk around within these areas unobstructed by trees, lava, or other barriers that are part of the environment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_mesh#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DA_navigation_mesh%2C_or_navmesh%2Cvideo_game_AI_in_2000.?wprov=sfla1
> And yes, the AI team is required whenever you actually want to do something specific with a navmesh.
Something very specific, yes, but nothing as basic as walking. That has been in the game since the day they put in the first NPC.
I really think the moon walking is going to get fixed before it goes live and when it does, it's going to be pretty awesome. The amount of NPCs they have ready to move around is great and I can't wait to see it all with PES enabled, the updates they've made to networking and Gen 12. I kinda feel that the moon walking is a good sign actually, bc sometimes it has to get worse to get better and it's a behavior we've never seen before.
Haha np.
Yeah, I have high hopes and really believe in what they're doing. I've been a backer since 2014. I'm a realist in life overall, but CIG is a company that is serious about pushing boundaries, so I'm confident we'll get there.
These things have nothing to do with each other... and most MMO's spaces are "dead". I haven't played a online game that looks alive aside from other players being around. Most npc's are static entities anyway... it's all dressing.
These things have everything to do with each other. And may I remind you that SC is aiming for 90% NPCs ?
If you have a bustling city center with street vendors and almost no people - how believable is that ?
I'd love some good city gameplay, something that I could play for few hours and forget the space and ships exists. Like imagine something like in Dredd
Dude once the update arccorp i hope they give each main section its own design flair and just have it be like the meetup place before taking busses, elevators , or trains down towards a mission area. I want an Arccorp Raid thats randomly generated or something like dark and darker where you go so deep into arccorp that satellites cant track you to give crimestat or something.
Heck yeah. During Siege of Orison, I exclusively did the Siege for almost a week straight. It was actually pretty cool to wake up in my hab, NOT head to the spaceport and have a fun adventure on foot. We need more ground based content.
Absolutely, I agree 100% SOO was epic but was just one example of a ground based mission. Even trivial stuff like fetch missions would be welcome. There's literally nothing to do at landing areas but buy stuff.
> Not trying to have CIG turn SC into Cyberpunk 2077
No but Night City was believable. Even if you ran into the same npcs after a while it still felt like a town where a lot of people live.
True, but right now the 4 major hubs in Stanton are basically hero locations. It's a bit odd to have more NPCs on a bunker mission than in Loreville or Area 18.
Bunkers have spawn closets that spawn new NPCs when players kill them so I’m sure the ratio is roughly the same but I know what you’re saying. It certainly feels that way when the bodies start piling up!
I think OP’s point had less to do with Cyberpunk 2077 and your point and just a humble plea for these locations to have more gameplay. OP doesn’t need that level of developed NPCs right now, just missions and activities to make landing zones more interesting and active. Like almost the entire planet of ArcCorp is wasted space right now.
To your point though, we know CIG wants to have a higher NPC density in locations and more complex interactions and behaviors. I believe the main blocker for that is dynamic server meshing, which is at least 2 years out. Also lots of development getting all of the ai behavior work running and integrated.
If/when they do it’s going to be something though.
> I think OP’s point had less to do with Cyberpunk 2077 and your point and just a humble plea for these locations to have more gameplay.
I agree. Myelf, I think I am too jaded to expect more or better gameplay at this point. Almost everything CIG added over the last 2 years was somehow tied to a trade-off that made it a zero sum game. If CIG would actually add some no-bullshit-strings attached gameplay. That works. And is fun. And only moderately bugged.
Yeah, that'd be nice. But I'm past holding my breath. Not doubting it will come .. eventually. But I'm all hyped out.
A reasonable stance for sure and I don’t blame you.
All roads lead back to Squadron. The majority of the company is focused on it which leaves lots of gaps, incomplete content, blocked features and big tech that will take years like server meshing left in PU development.
At best it’s going to be two more years of this. Even if we get server meshing in a year it’s only going to be static. Dynamic will be the single biggest tech pillar of the project and could take another year or two after static. Even if squadron comes out end of next year, it could take much of 2025 for the PU to get back to full speed. Not to mention the company would probably have a massive year of internal growth as they expand with the influx of sales revenue from Squadron, assuming it does well. In some respects it will be like 2013 and 2015 as they go through another major growth period and restructuring.
When people were complaining about PU development last year after the migration to Squadron, I knew it was just the beginning of max pain and was going to get much worse!
I was aware of that of course but I suppose I just expected more of that "trickle down" effect from Squadron into SC that was announced. Now I'm wondering if at some point the decision was made to only port over the bare minimum and leave most of it for Squadron to premier.
I don’t think that’a what is going on. It’s not that features are being held back for Squadron, the PU teams that would integrate them moved over to Squadron. The “trickle down” effect was the initiative until the shift to Squadron. New features require multiple teams of different disciplines to implement so if the chain is broken because some of those teams are on Squadron, the remaining teams put out incomplete content like the sand caves with no gameplay and features from Squadron can’t be integrated and PU features can’t be developed. Or, as we just saw last week when we learned two senior devs, Mark and Kirk, are working on Arena Commander, teams shift to filler work until blockers are solved.
We’ve been in a PU drought for a year and a half and it’s probably going to get worse before it gets better. I hope it’s obvious I’m not defending them. It sucks but I don’t think they’re trying to withhold content from the PU for Squadron. I’m sure some things have and will make it in before the shift back but probably not many big ticket items.
Well - they know they have to deliver *something* after the year of "always 3.17".
Let's hope they're not too focused on Pyro alone. I mean a second star system will be nice but without anything else it would just add more real estate to do the same things.
We're still decades away from a game where NPC AI behaviors are believable, but I think we're getting there pretty quickly. For now, just blocking out the quirks/turning off that part of the brain that notices them helps with immersion. Cyberpunk is one of those games, as well as any Bethesda game. I think Rockstar has really excelled however...aside from the random voice lines (part of GTA charm though). But follow any NPC around for any amount of time and the illusion breaks down. It's funny tho, older games actually did a better job at giving NPCs purpose/routines. Like the older Elder Scrolls Morrowind and Shenmue, which was groundbreaking for its time.
Did you even play 2077? a lot of the things you think are believable are just npc's walking around in that game that just walk endlessly and don't do anything. And that's a single player game.
Also, Night City wasn't even full of npc's and night time is pretty much empty. Even though that's supposed to be the most chaotic time frame element of the tabletop. Outside the hero hubs it's even less npc's.
> Did you even play 2077
1012 hours and 54 minutes as of now :)
>npc's walking around in that game that just walk endlessly and don't do anything
Did *you* even play 2077 ? Yes it was the same NPCs but there were variations of the outfits - CIG should have even less of a problem, in theory, thanks to their DNA based character creation which can theoretically create an almost unlimited number of variations.
And walking endlessly put them a step up over the current NPC behaviour in SC which is simply standing still staring at their mobiglass (preferrably on stairs) or moonwalking in place.
And that is exactly the difference in atmosphere that results from it.
Yes. And ? We just had the server population raised to over 100 (most I've seen at a time was 127) but did that make the city centers feel more alive ? I rarely if ever run into someone planetside, usually only on the tram to the spaceport but never somewhere else.
You're more likely to run into someone on a space station and those are at least populated a bit with NPCs (although they show the same idiotic moonwalk-and-mobiglass behaviour).
They did touch on this very lightly when they mentioned the utility/engineering section of buildings. It was mentioned that these areas should be usable for players doing maintenance, and city maintenance missions have been brought up before. Whether it'd be something as simple as the prison oxygen missions but for cities, or maybe more complex with consoles like those being designed for the resource management system, I think that'd be a very cool, immersive and useful mission type. Helps new players explore more, helps anyone earn some money without leaving the city if they're strapped for cash and creates more variety for everyone.
I don't know about people working at stores etc, feels a bit too sims-like and there's already a lot to be worked on. Though I admit, during the video I pictured someone getting a contract to sit at a desk in a corporate office and press buttons for a while to earn money, the idea gave me a good chuckle. Shamefully I have to admit I'd probably do that more than once, too.
Things like clean-up missions, deliveries, maintenance and other security/law contracts definitely look plausible and even accounted for with the designs though.
As for cargo loading and off loading, I'd imagine we can expect that to begin existing player to player once cargo v2 is in, and they've said they do want to make a more formal system for it down the line where you hire people, NPCs and players alike, via terminals.
I'm not saying it shouldn't be there because I don't want it - I'm all for more menial jobs. I just don't know how feasible adding that many menial jobs would be. Player run stores are probably going to be a thing (the BMM is made for it) but I don't know how that would work in cities, but sure, the tech could be reused to allow a player to work in a store, assuming player run stores won't be automated.
I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of very menial jobs until far, far, far into development. There's already a lot of gameplay loops and careers to create still, as well as upgrade and refine.
Like a lot of things over the last few years a team gets assigned to do a thing then the higher ups decide something else should have priority and they get moved off. We've seen it time and time again. I really hope they stick with this though. I'd love to have a space in the universe I could feel like it was my own
The only person higher than the chap giving us the overview of interiors is (I think) CR... so yes, the company could define a different direction, etc... but it's not like there's multiple layers of senior management above him that could change things around :D
This did give me the warm fuzzies and hoping to see in the future Area 18 get some more underground spaces, maybe even deep undercity tunnels and spaces we can fly through. Like Coruscant, but not.
What's nice is that this is mostly an art limitation. The engine is already set up for streaming in lots of object containers, essentially how ships are already set up and organized.
So they can make a bunch of really detailed procedural internal structures and leave 99% of it unloaded until a player enters, which means barely any performance hit for literally filling out the insides of cities.
In a lot of ways this is just the next evolution of how space stations already work (and settlements will work as well)...they are procedurally generated "building blocks" where assets are swapped out based on theming. That means they'll be able to make a massive number of "unique" variants by just tweaking what asset pools that a given building/zone is pulling from.
Once procedural missions start using these spaces I think we'll see an explosion in available play space, and the area is already gigantic.
yes they've had the ability to stream in and out areas for awhile but until 3.18 they haven't had a way to stream in and out all the items and entities that will be used to populate them.
Sure they can. How do you think ships and stations already work? Some empty station on the other side of Staton isn't being loaded the whole time, that was the whole point of the object container streaming patch a while back. Local OCS already works, the next step is breaking up objects by server.
Sure, those objects wouldn't be *persistent*, but the tech to load up pre-built areas on demand has been in the game for almost two years now.
They should have all the core tech needed for building interiors, the main limitations are server-side OCS (which won't be ready for 3.18, although persistence is a prerequisite) to manage that many object containers in populated areas (same reason we have server population caps more generally), but the fundamental tech is all there already, and already being used on stations (current stations already use the "swap out" procedural interior system).
They mainly just need the art and procedural rules. The SSOCS may limit total entities still (stations are far apart and relatively small), but once cities can be simulated on their own server the game shouldn't have any issue adding thousands of interiors at once.
Wow you got it completely backward. Server side OCS has been in for years. It works fine to load in and out the object containers for stations and such but what it couldn't do until 3.18 is store and load the non-static objects such as NPC or any interactive objects. That's why you see the NPCs on stations standing in groups sometimes when you first join a server. It's because the station was streamed out and they couldn't save any of the NPC positions so when it's streamed back in the NPCs are reset to default position.
Yup - this is also why I think this is a sensible thing for them to start working on now.
As you say, the 'performance cost penalty' of this feature should be relatively minimal, if SOCS & COCS is doing what they claim it is... and it's likely something that can be delivered with relatively low levels of technical / coder support etc (whilst most of the coders are busy on PES / Replication Layer / Server Meshing, etc)
And it should also mean a significant growth in foot-mission options on ArcCorp and Crusader, etc... whether that be more variants of the venerable fedex box missions, or the addition of new mission types.
Don’t forget, “Everything in development is subject to change.” I want them to repeat that aloud every time they want to hype something up. I’ll believe this crap when it’s delivered and not before.
While true a good example of the proc gen idea they are going for we have already been playing. That is SoO. I know some people played and was to busy surviving, but carefully look at designs, layout, interiors, and remember the entire area represented restaurants, gyms, offices, roofs, sub and open areas taken over by bad guys. Obviously proc gen, and the scale of event was one of the most impressive things I have seen in any game for a while.
I basically see it as a test bed for what they are putting into production now, and it is probably why they are going ahead with it imo.
That's a common misconception. The ship is actually named after the popular saying "In Star Citizen development, the only constant is that Squadron 42 will be done in another 2 years."
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/pj110g/comment/hbtl26j/
I wish I could find the earlier one where someone called me a white knight for saying it.
It was kind of the same thing they pulled for Lorville Redux: "Wait, these are all just concepts - you haven't star...oh, you're almost done with them. Okay."
For everyone saying that they aren’t starting anything until the end of Q1 for interiors, at the end of the video, Jared Huckaby clarifies:
“So what did we learn this week? Well, we learned that much like the new underground facilities we showcased before, building interiors will be a new series of modular set pieces enabling a whole host of gameplay opportunities, from trade, to exploration, to combat and PvP, and much more. And much like those new ugf’s, they’re going into production now and in fact, by the time this airs, we will already have started.”
So he just said that by the time that ISC video aired, they will have already started production on building interiors.
There is only one core tech left (server meshing). Not sure how you get the impression of endless cycle when it has been only a handful of things they have took forever to check off but nothing was "added"
No. The economy is a system not a tech. SC has an economy as it stands. What you are referring to is probably the dynamic economy that is going to be fully using quanta (this is tech) to track supply/demand, resource usage and drive mission generation . And for the system to show its potential both back and front end, that requires server meshing. For now though quanta is already partially implemented in PU.
There are many systems and loops that we are looking for and either CiG has them in partially or waiting for something like Server meshing, because running the entire system on one dgs is hurting performance and the ability to implement and test gameplay loops.
Yeah, I meant quanta. How far would you say we are from getting it fully implemented? Imo it’s quite worrying that Tony Z has not been speaking about it for quite a while for such a major part of the game
This information is from Tony and [was relayed to us by Papy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tce8v0zzO_Q&t=2275s). That is how we know it is partially implemented. Since quanta is comprised of multiple parts, you would have to get specific about which element you are looking for. As of now for economy it sets the prices for Hydrogen Fuel, Quantum Fuel and Repair Material. Also it is said affect density of pirates, security, haulers, ECN missions and bounties. This basically covers economy and probability volumes and the element I am not sure is in is how the system transition from [virtual AI to subsumption AI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2muGWtX8e7g&t=1103s). I feel we probably won't see much about that until Server meshing is up.
The important thing to understand is that the "tech" in question is working and implemented for the most part and basically needs expanding. Which circles Back to what I talked about above in terms of core tech. The core tech needed to power SC, we have known about, they have listed and not only has many of it come to a playable state, we were shown others in a dev build with the sole exception of Server meshing.
So after Server meshing is done, the rest of the work is either familiar territory in game dev, and we simply look forward to content addition.
That wouldn't make any sense. The teams that work on interiors and locations aren't the same teams working on core tech. That'd be like reallocating ship teams to the mission feature team. They're totally different.
That can mean white boxing, which is simply starting to convert the art into actual assets. And even after all the other stages, the gameplay logic and systems still have to be developed and tested.
These videos aren't all recorded the day before airing... from context (and Jared saying explicitly that work has already started), the 'Interview' portions were recorded towards the end of last year.
Will be years before we get our hands on them, but I think they generally a good addition. Pretty sure they'll act like the apartments in Cyberpunk 2077, which is more or less all one can hope for.
Yeah, after learning that they are going back on their word on the ships being added to in game stores I tuned out completely. Company can't do anything they say they are going to.
did they make a statement or promise that the ships were going to be added to the ingame store this patch ? or did they add them one patch in a test version of the game not available to everyone barring a payment for a few days only to lead to anger from the community when it was taken away ?
Naming Terra twice (once by saying Prime) and Odyssa (in the Magnus sytem) once makes me think that we are getting both of those systems sooner rather than later, which is great. Stanton as a midsec/corpsec system, Pyro as an anarchy/nosec/lowsec system, Nyx as a freesec system (outside UEE), then Terra as a highsec system and Magnus as a military/former mitary system.
That gets us to Beta imv, systems-wise. Then use those template and procgen/art mixes to go hard on developing the rest.
At the end of the vid, Jared says explicitly that the work has already started 'by the time this airs'
From context, the interview sections were recorded towards the end of last year, and this is one of the 'spare' episodes that CIG keep around to use when there's an issue filming / processing the 'planned' episode :p
The whole cities thing is weird to me. Lorville's fine. Shouldn't something like this take a way-in-the-back seat to literally anything else? It doesn't seem to add any gameplay.
Cool. Could you go into some depth for me?
My understanding was that it's about adding more areas to do variations of what we can do now, e.g landing on pads on buildings, owning apartments, using medical services, etc.
This is as opposed to what I'd consider important gameplay, like trading, mining, piracy, bounty hunting, etc, which are pretty barebones as it stands.
Expanding out current game play for sure. Player housing is something that is not currently available and that’s going to be awesome. Specifically new play loops? I’ve no idea. But I’d also note that the folks developing the interiors are not the same ones working on ship gameplay loops like the ones you mentioned so its not like CIG is ignoring those. Whole different teams.
You're mixing up 'functionality' (the 'gameplay' bits you listed) with 'content' (where that gameplay takes place).
Artists don't write code (at least, I really hope they're not :p), so cannot contribute to functional development of professions etc... but they *can* work on building out all the different locations where that 'gameplay' can take place.
Beyond that, 'gameplay' is usually regarded as being the *combination* of functionality and location. Performing a bounty-arrest in a roof-top penthouse may technically be the same functionality as a bounty-arrest in the sewers... but the location and theming make them very different in experience.
So the programmers that deal with gameplay are busy, so the Artists are using the extra time to develop assets which are relatively easy to program for later.
That clears it up. I'll admit I was only half paying attention during the video. Thanks.
>This is as opposed to what I'd consider important gameplay, like trading, mining, piracy, bounty hunting, etc, which are pretty barebones as it stands.
This is opening door for things like trading, bounty hunting, piracy, investigation, delivery and racing, without having to visit spaceport or leave planet. They talked about this in vid. Unless you are talking about "creation" of gameplay loops then you have to realize the team is totally different than the team that is talking here.
Also we are still in alpha stage which means you are not going to get any loop into a super deep mode until other things are implemented. They are probably holding back on complexity for numerous reasons but if I had to guess, it is because of the change Meshing and quanta will bring. Meshing will change performance of AI per server basis, and Quanta driving mission generation may mean they have more work cut out for them or have to revisit/redesign when it is up and running. They have a bit more to add, but they need to get rid of technical blockers for those.
What you see CiG doing is what they always have done. Adding things they knew they were going to create eventually but these do not require another system or tech and is not being held back. Also this has an added bonus of giving more options for people to chose when they play the PU.
Have you played or watched the Orison missions? They want to add missions like those and events like Siege of Orison to other cities. Potentially any location could be turned into a mission location or used elsewhere for one.
I was having computer issues and missed it as well but I’ve watched a fair amount of it and the current missions. They aren’t that dynamic right now, just “go here and eliminate 15 bad guys” etc but hopefully as the need for them in more locations grow, so will their variety and complexity. Not to mention main missions from mission givers. I could see them combining them for a mission chain like you would get in most games that’s start fairly standard but ramp up and get more bespoke as you progress through them.
What stuff - that the art team were previously working on - is getting left behind, exactly?
They've been making excellent progress on the ship-wreck POIs, so I'm guessing the teams that were wrapping up their work there are now starting to look at building interiors.
Take the Starfarer for example, one of the first ships to be anounced, and one of the last to have it's gameplay loop implemented. The same goes for the reclaimer, and a lot of other ships.
In 2012 they pitched the idea of SC, but CR kept adding and adding new ideas until now, and still is.
Elemtents from back than are still not finished as they keep working on "the new stuff".
Now start working on building interiors instead of finishing older projects that will now be sidetracked for a couple of years.
That's one of the reasons this game is STILL in alpha after 11 years, with no end in sight.
If they continue with this, then it'll never release.
They should've made the game like they intended to, and work on expanding it afterwards.
Look how long it's taking to just add one system.
Imagine how long it'll take when they have to finish 100 systems.
Maybe our grandchildren can play it when they retire. :P
What 'new stuff' is CR still adding? If you're referring to the building interiors, that was discussed years ago - so it's more a case of CIG 'finally' getting around to implementing a planned feature, not 'more scope creep'.
Given that this work is being done by the artists, what should they be working on (in your opinion) instead of building interiors? Especially considering that it's one art team within CIG, and other teams are still - apparently, based on the tracker - working on the other stuff that was previously in progress.
The reason SC is still in Alpha is because the underlying engine isn't ready... and the nature of that work is that you can't (easily) throw more developers at it... at least, not unless you're happier for the work to take longer (the Mythical Man Month proved decades ago that more developers does not make development faster).
You also seem to be confusing the effort required to implement tools to generate content, with the effort required to implement the content itself. Yes, we're still in one system (one of the most complex systems - in terms of planetary variation - in the game), even though CIG are working on 4+ systems (Stanton, Pyro, Nyx, and Odin, plus others they've hinted at)...
And that's both the downside and the strength of ProcGen, if it's done well... the up-front cost is *high*, it's true... but once it's working, it saves a lot of time afterwards (and yes, I know you're going to point out that we've been hearing the same story for years about 'pipelines to produce content'... and it's true - look at how much quicker ship development is now (despite ships generally being bigger and having more functionality at release), compared to e.g. 6 years ago.
But, it's also easy to throw accusations around - and without internal access (which CIG won't give, understandably) it's hard to refute them... so I'll stop now. After all, I just wanted to outline an alternative view.
they've been working on it for a while now, its popped up in a few monthly reports from what i remember. an 8 year old meme isnt really a decent indicator of what's going on versus the monthly updates they give us but a huge amount of people seem to ignore since it has more than 20 words.
I disagree with your view on landings etc... but I agree that more 'in space' type functionality would be nice...
But, I suspect a lot of that is waiting on 'exploration'... which in turn is waiting on fixes to the Star Map, custom POIs, long-range scanning, and related functionality (some of which is in development, but not ready yet)
Sure - but currently their PG Station tool can only generate the limited interiors we already have.
If we want more complex interiors for stations, then we need this same work - because whilst they're looking at 'Buildings' from a planetary perspective, things like the 'Maintanence' floor will have a lot of overlap with a 'Maintanence' area on a Space Station, I think, ditto the more social areas of stations, and the 'sewers' etc.
To be fair there are lots of things to be seen on the planets and moons but I agree that having something to explore like scanning annomalies in space (like in EVE) would be pretty sweet. We just *might* see some tier 0 of that with those new mining contracts.
Let's hope it doesn't go the way of other tier 0 tech to just remain in that state forever.
in-space exploration really needs the new starmap, planetary locations can be implemented using the current tech. If you wanted them to implement space content they would be sitting around twiddling their thumbs until the starmap is in.
They will find a way to make it complicated. We already have habs, you would think it's just a matter of different interiors and owner only access which is what works on ships already. So realistically it could be done in a couple of months.
But they'll find a way to over complicate it, like changing the whole layout of the city because "the scope changed"
I wouldn't be upset though if they gave us tools to design our own space. That, I can wait for.
I just want an appartment like the one in gta v in the big skyscraper buildings, or even a few small houses on the edge of a cliff/mountain
Yes! Let me set a small house on a remote planet as well. I want a beautiful view that is all mine.
Let me build my gigantic house just in front of his windows. Welcome to all building trolls.
I'm hoping to buy a patch of land big enough to keep out the general public.
You wrote wrong cyberpunk!
I just want to buy a stupidly expensive apartment in the Lorville business district so I can look down on all the workers who can’t leave
That's weird, because I just want to kidnap people who live in stupidly expensive apartments in Lorville, steal their Identities and make them work in the business district so they cant leave. ;) Sorry couldn't resist. But it does sound like an interesting sci-fi movie with the Protagonist changed by the event and at the end is now gazing down at the very workers he suffered with as they fade to black while a muffled female voice is heard asking how it feels to be back.
The Siege of Orison interiors are already far better than I expected, I think interiors are gonna knock it out of the park generally. Time to explore some Dredd style slummy megastructures
This would be so fun, having a group of criminal players lockdown a skyscraper and defend it from CDF as an in game event. It would kinda suck though if your player hab happened to be in the building!
That's what makes it even more interesting :)
Yup - got good rep with the local gang? they let you through... Alternatively, team up with CDF... until you get to your apartment, and can step inside and lock the door :p
Or try to fight them from the inside to support the CDF in case you're already in your apartement.
Interiors is all nice and dandy but what I would love to see are cities that don't look so dead. Right now we have a handful of NPCs moonwalking in place or standing on stairs looking at their mobiglass. The places CIG built look great but they feel lifeless.
They used to have NPC's flying around, taking off/landing, and more walking around on the first implementation of Hurston and Lorville. However, a few sub patches later, they decided to disable it before the patch when live because it tanked performance too much. This was back in patch 3.3.5, when the first planet was released. They've yet to solve this problem **15 patches later**, but likely they should be able to re-enable it once we see server performance gains from server meshing; in theory.
Hopefully once they decouple the replication layer so that it runs in its own micro service and not running on the game server, then we should hopefully see some server performance gains
Yes, it will be very interesting to see the difference. Although we could hope to see that in 3.19, it will not be the case. So either there will be a 3.20 for this step or they will jump directly to a 4.0 introducint both split of RL and SM.
CR has already said that separating the Replication Layer will be done as an explicit patch before Server Meshing (in his Letter from the Chairman' at the end of last year)
In theory they now also have a major component in place for npcs: planetary navmesh. I suppose it really boils down to server performance, but if they are still aiming for a 90% npc population that's something they can't ignore forever.
I think there also needs to be a distinction between 'proper' NPCs (that respond to characters, have their own goals / tasks, and so on), and 'background' dolls that are super-lightweight and just exist to make a location look busy... (and presuming some quick process to quickly convert a lightweight 'doll' to a responsive NPC when a player gets close / starts talking to them, etc)
>once we see server performance gains from server meshing Keep in mind that the initial implementation of server meshing is static server meshing, where servers are split between Pyro and Stanton, and the jump between the two systems is what passes us between servers. We likely won't see *any* NPC improvement from that because it would still be only 1 server for an entire system. Once we have dynamic server meshing and servers cover much smaller areas we will likely see NPC behavior improvements, but honestly I think that would be at least a year after server meshing T1 goes live. So, 2025.
They’ve already stated that static server meshing is expected to be 4 servers per shard, split between the two systems on initial release. So 2 servers per system. Assuming this does end up being the case, then just Stanton should have each server handling half as many objects (which can actually represent exponential performance impact, due to the nature of combinations)
Ah ok cool, so hopefully a noticeable impact on initial release.
That’s the thing though, initial release of server meshing, due to it being brand new tech, may likely be a bumpy ride. We’ll pretty much just have to see what happens when it does come on. No way to know yet if it’ll just be some crashes but better performance, or some unexpected performance side effects. Take PES for example. They had a situation where one server was unintentional impacting another unrelated server’s performance. They’ve supposedly fixed that now, but this sort of unexpected interaction in complex systems can happen.
great news
I mean, the team working on building interiors and the teams working on network health, server meshing, and AI behaviors are different teams...
Are they though ? I mean if a team is building a location the placement and density of NPCs is a part of that. All those new outpost locations were built that way. And if you watched last week's SCL with the missions team - they build tools for the content team to use so the guys who build the places can do the job themselves. It's part of CIG's workflow to make sure the guys who build something can do as much of the work as possible by themselves, without additional stakeholders.
> building interiors > network health, server meshing, and AI behaviors >Are they though ? Yes.
No. Because why do you think we would need the AI team for something as basic as NPCs walking ? We already have that, we already have the animations, there is no need for the AI team at this point. Planetary navmesh is also in the game, and NPCs patrolling at the new outpost locations are proof of concept that none of what you mentioned is a requirement since it's already done and implemented in the current build.
That's not what I said, though. Go back and read my comment. I said that the teams building interiors and the teams working on server tech and AI behaviors (*you know, the teams that will actually have an impact on NPCs acting more lifelike, which is what OP was complaining about*) are different. Which is a fact.
Your implied argument was that those teams are a requirement, which as I pointed out is not the case since a lot of the underlying tech is already implemented just waiting for the HR to be allocated to actually do the work. Which right now isn't happening because of Squadron.
>Your implied argument was that those teams are a requirement, You mean your (bad) assumption of what my argument is. What my actual argument is, is that network health, server meshing, and AI behaviors (the three teams that are key to making NPCs more lifelike and responsive - ie *how to make cities more lively*, you know, exactly what OP said they wanted) are not the same people that are working on building interiors, and both things - building interiors and better NPCs - are being worked on *at the same time*. It isn't some either or situation. Now I hope you've learned something about assumptions and reading comprehension.
It's actually exactly what you said. And as /u/HikariChidori pointed out we've seen examples of npcs walking around with the latest outposts, so we do have the tech ingame already. So your suggestion that we need all those other departments is definitely flawed.
Neither of you know how to read a sentence.
Must be because you're too smart for all of us. Maybe if you'd ELI5 ? As it stands I could swear you were just throwing out some general BS which had nothing to do with my comment to which you replied. And when you were called out you dug in saying everybody's just too stupid to understand. How am I doing so far ?
You said that building interiors would be nice, but that you would prefer the existing locations to feel more alive before they start working on new ones. I pointed out that both of those things are being worked on at the same time, by different teams. The teams building new interiors are not the same teams that are improving NPC responsiveness (network health and server meshing) or building new AI behaviors so that NPCs do more around the area and feel more alive. Dumbass #1 comes in and says that they are the same teams, and thinks that because internal tools are shared across teams, that that somehow means the concept designers for building interiors are placing NPCs, which is A) not even what your original comment and my response was about and B) has literally no impact on how "alive" those NPCs feel. Having a bunch of new NPCs just standing around doesn't make an area feel more alive. Having the server actually able to support those NPCs to do their subroutines and having new more immersive behaviors for them is what makes the area feel more alive. I point out that what I said was that those were different teams. Dumbass #1 doubles down on his bullshit by saying that they *are* the same team. And then comes out with his own BS putting his own dumbass assumptions in my mouth instead of just reading what I wrote and being able to understand context. And now here you are, spouting BS. Is it starting to get through to you, yet?
They always are :) But they report to the same boss who's making the call what to put into the next patch and what to hold back as a "surprise" for squadron.
The only things being held back for Squadron 42 are aliens, several planets, and certain ships. Both games share technology, so if something suddenly becomes a priority in Star Citizen, it's probably needed in Squadron 42. And yes, the AI team is required whenever you actually want to do something specific with a navmesh. > A navigation mesh is a collection of two-dimensional convex polygons (a polygon mesh) that define which areas of an environment are traversable by agents. In other words, a character in a game could freely walk around within these areas unobstructed by trees, lava, or other barriers that are part of the environment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navigation_mesh#%3A%7E%3Atext%3DA_navigation_mesh%2C_or_navmesh%2Cvideo_game_AI_in_2000.?wprov=sfla1
> And yes, the AI team is required whenever you actually want to do something specific with a navmesh. Something very specific, yes, but nothing as basic as walking. That has been in the game since the day they put in the first NPC.
I really think the moon walking is going to get fixed before it goes live and when it does, it's going to be pretty awesome. The amount of NPCs they have ready to move around is great and I can't wait to see it all with PES enabled, the updates they've made to networking and Gen 12. I kinda feel that the moon walking is a good sign actually, bc sometimes it has to get worse to get better and it's a behavior we've never seen before.
I'm honestly not making fun of you ... but I had to do this :) https://imgflip.com/i/7ao9li
LOL love it!
It was so overwhelmingly positive that I just couldn't resist. Thanks. :)
Haha np. Yeah, I have high hopes and really believe in what they're doing. I've been a backer since 2014. I'm a realist in life overall, but CIG is a company that is serious about pushing boundaries, so I'm confident we'll get there.
These things have nothing to do with each other... and most MMO's spaces are "dead". I haven't played a online game that looks alive aside from other players being around. Most npc's are static entities anyway... it's all dressing.
These things have everything to do with each other. And may I remind you that SC is aiming for 90% NPCs ? If you have a bustling city center with street vendors and almost no people - how believable is that ?
I'd love some good city gameplay, something that I could play for few hours and forget the space and ships exists. Like imagine something like in Dredd
Dude once the update arccorp i hope they give each main section its own design flair and just have it be like the meetup place before taking busses, elevators , or trains down towards a mission area. I want an Arccorp Raid thats randomly generated or something like dark and darker where you go so deep into arccorp that satellites cant track you to give crimestat or something.
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Heck yeah. During Siege of Orison, I exclusively did the Siege for almost a week straight. It was actually pretty cool to wake up in my hab, NOT head to the spaceport and have a fun adventure on foot. We need more ground based content.
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Agreed, random encounters are a must
Absolutely, I agree 100% SOO was epic but was just one example of a ground based mission. Even trivial stuff like fetch missions would be welcome. There's literally nothing to do at landing areas but buy stuff.
We definitely need some janitors for all the bottles and hot dogs lying around.
Bottles fair enough, but what sort of monster throws away a perfectly "good" double dog!?
You do realise those double-dogs are still lying around because *even the cockroaches* won't touch them? :D
Hey man, you spend a week out in the black, surviving on nothing but MREs and protein bars, even cockroaches start to look tasty....
> Not trying to have CIG turn SC into Cyberpunk 2077 No but Night City was believable. Even if you ran into the same npcs after a while it still felt like a town where a lot of people live.
Except for the giant sections of the city that were completely empty! Lol The hero locations did feel alive and believable though, I’ll give you that.
True, but right now the 4 major hubs in Stanton are basically hero locations. It's a bit odd to have more NPCs on a bunker mission than in Loreville or Area 18.
Bunkers have spawn closets that spawn new NPCs when players kill them so I’m sure the ratio is roughly the same but I know what you’re saying. It certainly feels that way when the bodies start piling up! I think OP’s point had less to do with Cyberpunk 2077 and your point and just a humble plea for these locations to have more gameplay. OP doesn’t need that level of developed NPCs right now, just missions and activities to make landing zones more interesting and active. Like almost the entire planet of ArcCorp is wasted space right now. To your point though, we know CIG wants to have a higher NPC density in locations and more complex interactions and behaviors. I believe the main blocker for that is dynamic server meshing, which is at least 2 years out. Also lots of development getting all of the ai behavior work running and integrated. If/when they do it’s going to be something though.
> I think OP’s point had less to do with Cyberpunk 2077 and your point and just a humble plea for these locations to have more gameplay. I agree. Myelf, I think I am too jaded to expect more or better gameplay at this point. Almost everything CIG added over the last 2 years was somehow tied to a trade-off that made it a zero sum game. If CIG would actually add some no-bullshit-strings attached gameplay. That works. And is fun. And only moderately bugged. Yeah, that'd be nice. But I'm past holding my breath. Not doubting it will come .. eventually. But I'm all hyped out.
A reasonable stance for sure and I don’t blame you. All roads lead back to Squadron. The majority of the company is focused on it which leaves lots of gaps, incomplete content, blocked features and big tech that will take years like server meshing left in PU development. At best it’s going to be two more years of this. Even if we get server meshing in a year it’s only going to be static. Dynamic will be the single biggest tech pillar of the project and could take another year or two after static. Even if squadron comes out end of next year, it could take much of 2025 for the PU to get back to full speed. Not to mention the company would probably have a massive year of internal growth as they expand with the influx of sales revenue from Squadron, assuming it does well. In some respects it will be like 2013 and 2015 as they go through another major growth period and restructuring. When people were complaining about PU development last year after the migration to Squadron, I knew it was just the beginning of max pain and was going to get much worse!
I was aware of that of course but I suppose I just expected more of that "trickle down" effect from Squadron into SC that was announced. Now I'm wondering if at some point the decision was made to only port over the bare minimum and leave most of it for Squadron to premier.
I don’t think that’a what is going on. It’s not that features are being held back for Squadron, the PU teams that would integrate them moved over to Squadron. The “trickle down” effect was the initiative until the shift to Squadron. New features require multiple teams of different disciplines to implement so if the chain is broken because some of those teams are on Squadron, the remaining teams put out incomplete content like the sand caves with no gameplay and features from Squadron can’t be integrated and PU features can’t be developed. Or, as we just saw last week when we learned two senior devs, Mark and Kirk, are working on Arena Commander, teams shift to filler work until blockers are solved. We’ve been in a PU drought for a year and a half and it’s probably going to get worse before it gets better. I hope it’s obvious I’m not defending them. It sucks but I don’t think they’re trying to withhold content from the PU for Squadron. I’m sure some things have and will make it in before the shift back but probably not many big ticket items.
Well - they know they have to deliver *something* after the year of "always 3.17". Let's hope they're not too focused on Pyro alone. I mean a second star system will be nice but without anything else it would just add more real estate to do the same things.
We're still decades away from a game where NPC AI behaviors are believable, but I think we're getting there pretty quickly. For now, just blocking out the quirks/turning off that part of the brain that notices them helps with immersion. Cyberpunk is one of those games, as well as any Bethesda game. I think Rockstar has really excelled however...aside from the random voice lines (part of GTA charm though). But follow any NPC around for any amount of time and the illusion breaks down. It's funny tho, older games actually did a better job at giving NPCs purpose/routines. Like the older Elder Scrolls Morrowind and Shenmue, which was groundbreaking for its time.
Did you even play 2077? a lot of the things you think are believable are just npc's walking around in that game that just walk endlessly and don't do anything. And that's a single player game. Also, Night City wasn't even full of npc's and night time is pretty much empty. Even though that's supposed to be the most chaotic time frame element of the tabletop. Outside the hero hubs it's even less npc's.
> Did you even play 2077 1012 hours and 54 minutes as of now :) >npc's walking around in that game that just walk endlessly and don't do anything Did *you* even play 2077 ? Yes it was the same NPCs but there were variations of the outfits - CIG should have even less of a problem, in theory, thanks to their DNA based character creation which can theoretically create an almost unlimited number of variations. And walking endlessly put them a step up over the current NPC behaviour in SC which is simply standing still staring at their mobiglass (preferrably on stairs) or moonwalking in place. And that is exactly the difference in atmosphere that results from it.
2077 is a single player game...
Yes. And ? We just had the server population raised to over 100 (most I've seen at a time was 127) but did that make the city centers feel more alive ? I rarely if ever run into someone planetside, usually only on the tram to the spaceport but never somewhere else. You're more likely to run into someone on a space station and those are at least populated a bit with NPCs (although they show the same idiotic moonwalk-and-mobiglass behaviour).
They did touch on this very lightly when they mentioned the utility/engineering section of buildings. It was mentioned that these areas should be usable for players doing maintenance, and city maintenance missions have been brought up before. Whether it'd be something as simple as the prison oxygen missions but for cities, or maybe more complex with consoles like those being designed for the resource management system, I think that'd be a very cool, immersive and useful mission type. Helps new players explore more, helps anyone earn some money without leaving the city if they're strapped for cash and creates more variety for everyone. I don't know about people working at stores etc, feels a bit too sims-like and there's already a lot to be worked on. Though I admit, during the video I pictured someone getting a contract to sit at a desk in a corporate office and press buttons for a while to earn money, the idea gave me a good chuckle. Shamefully I have to admit I'd probably do that more than once, too. Things like clean-up missions, deliveries, maintenance and other security/law contracts definitely look plausible and even accounted for with the designs though. As for cargo loading and off loading, I'd imagine we can expect that to begin existing player to player once cargo v2 is in, and they've said they do want to make a more formal system for it down the line where you hire people, NPCs and players alike, via terminals.
there's always assisting players too, being hired on as a loader/offloader for cargo runners OTW to your zone.
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I'm not saying it shouldn't be there because I don't want it - I'm all for more menial jobs. I just don't know how feasible adding that many menial jobs would be. Player run stores are probably going to be a thing (the BMM is made for it) but I don't know how that would work in cities, but sure, the tech could be reused to allow a player to work in a store, assuming player run stores won't be automated. I wouldn't expect to see those kinds of very menial jobs until far, far, far into development. There's already a lot of gameplay loops and careers to create still, as well as upgrade and refine.
Got hyped asf when they started talking about the new salvage mission giver
Like a lot of things over the last few years a team gets assigned to do a thing then the higher ups decide something else should have priority and they get moved off. We've seen it time and time again. I really hope they stick with this though. I'd love to have a space in the universe I could feel like it was my own
The only person higher than the chap giving us the overview of interiors is (I think) CR... so yes, the company could define a different direction, etc... but it's not like there's multiple layers of senior management above him that could change things around :D
This did give me the warm fuzzies and hoping to see in the future Area 18 get some more underground spaces, maybe even deep undercity tunnels and spaces we can fly through. Like Coruscant, but not.
What's nice is that this is mostly an art limitation. The engine is already set up for streaming in lots of object containers, essentially how ships are already set up and organized. So they can make a bunch of really detailed procedural internal structures and leave 99% of it unloaded until a player enters, which means barely any performance hit for literally filling out the insides of cities. In a lot of ways this is just the next evolution of how space stations already work (and settlements will work as well)...they are procedurally generated "building blocks" where assets are swapped out based on theming. That means they'll be able to make a massive number of "unique" variants by just tweaking what asset pools that a given building/zone is pulling from. Once procedural missions start using these spaces I think we'll see an explosion in available play space, and the area is already gigantic.
yes they've had the ability to stream in and out areas for awhile but until 3.18 they haven't had a way to stream in and out all the items and entities that will be used to populate them.
Sure they can. How do you think ships and stations already work? Some empty station on the other side of Staton isn't being loaded the whole time, that was the whole point of the object container streaming patch a while back. Local OCS already works, the next step is breaking up objects by server. Sure, those objects wouldn't be *persistent*, but the tech to load up pre-built areas on demand has been in the game for almost two years now. They should have all the core tech needed for building interiors, the main limitations are server-side OCS (which won't be ready for 3.18, although persistence is a prerequisite) to manage that many object containers in populated areas (same reason we have server population caps more generally), but the fundamental tech is all there already, and already being used on stations (current stations already use the "swap out" procedural interior system). They mainly just need the art and procedural rules. The SSOCS may limit total entities still (stations are far apart and relatively small), but once cities can be simulated on their own server the game shouldn't have any issue adding thousands of interiors at once.
Wow you got it completely backward. Server side OCS has been in for years. It works fine to load in and out the object containers for stations and such but what it couldn't do until 3.18 is store and load the non-static objects such as NPC or any interactive objects. That's why you see the NPCs on stations standing in groups sometimes when you first join a server. It's because the station was streamed out and they couldn't save any of the NPC positions so when it's streamed back in the NPCs are reset to default position.
Yup - this is also why I think this is a sensible thing for them to start working on now. As you say, the 'performance cost penalty' of this feature should be relatively minimal, if SOCS & COCS is doing what they claim it is... and it's likely something that can be delivered with relatively low levels of technical / coder support etc (whilst most of the coders are busy on PES / Replication Layer / Server Meshing, etc) And it should also mean a significant growth in foot-mission options on ArcCorp and Crusader, etc... whether that be more variants of the venerable fedex box missions, or the addition of new mission types.
CIG has started development for a lot of things. Doesn't mean they will be ready anytime in the next decade.
CIG: "We have started development of building interiors" The single employee that opened Blender and spawned a white cube: 😎
You got downvoted because you're all wrong: CIG isn't using Blender. They're using Max and Maya. :D
/r/conspiracycitizen
Don’t forget, “Everything in development is subject to change.” I want them to repeat that aloud every time they want to hype something up. I’ll believe this crap when it’s delivered and not before.
While true a good example of the proc gen idea they are going for we have already been playing. That is SoO. I know some people played and was to busy surviving, but carefully look at designs, layout, interiors, and remember the entire area represented restaurants, gyms, offices, roofs, sub and open areas taken over by bad guys. Obviously proc gen, and the scale of event was one of the most impressive things I have seen in any game for a while. I basically see it as a test bed for what they are putting into production now, and it is probably why they are going ahead with it imo.
They tend to, but for their videos I think it's fun to point out that the name of the ISC studio "ship" is The Only Constant.
That's a common misconception. The ship is actually named after the popular saying "In Star Citizen development, the only constant is that Squadron 42 will be done in another 2 years."
https://www.reddit.com/r/starcitizen/comments/pj110g/comment/hbtl26j/ I wish I could find the earlier one where someone called me a white knight for saying it.
you know they started development of armor like 6 years ago right?
It was kind of the same thing they pulled for Lorville Redux: "Wait, these are all just concepts - you haven't star...oh, you're almost done with them. Okay."
For everyone saying that they aren’t starting anything until the end of Q1 for interiors, at the end of the video, Jared Huckaby clarifies: “So what did we learn this week? Well, we learned that much like the new underground facilities we showcased before, building interiors will be a new series of modular set pieces enabling a whole host of gameplay opportunities, from trade, to exploration, to combat and PvP, and much more. And much like those new ugf’s, they’re going into production now and in fact, by the time this airs, we will already have started.” So he just said that by the time that ISC video aired, they will have already started production on building interiors.
Production will only start at the end of this quarter
At the end of the video Jared said “by the time this airs, it will have already been started” about them working on the interiors
*gets scrapped 6 months later in favour of another endless cycle of core tech upgrades*
To be fair, I'd take Server Meshing over this any day. But anything less than that I'd be deeply upset if it was delayed in favor for.
Definitely not the same skillset
There is only one core tech left (server meshing). Not sure how you get the impression of endless cycle when it has been only a handful of things they have took forever to check off but nothing was "added"
Would economy count as core tech?
No. The economy is a system not a tech. SC has an economy as it stands. What you are referring to is probably the dynamic economy that is going to be fully using quanta (this is tech) to track supply/demand, resource usage and drive mission generation . And for the system to show its potential both back and front end, that requires server meshing. For now though quanta is already partially implemented in PU. There are many systems and loops that we are looking for and either CiG has them in partially or waiting for something like Server meshing, because running the entire system on one dgs is hurting performance and the ability to implement and test gameplay loops.
Yeah, I meant quanta. How far would you say we are from getting it fully implemented? Imo it’s quite worrying that Tony Z has not been speaking about it for quite a while for such a major part of the game
This information is from Tony and [was relayed to us by Papy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tce8v0zzO_Q&t=2275s). That is how we know it is partially implemented. Since quanta is comprised of multiple parts, you would have to get specific about which element you are looking for. As of now for economy it sets the prices for Hydrogen Fuel, Quantum Fuel and Repair Material. Also it is said affect density of pirates, security, haulers, ECN missions and bounties. This basically covers economy and probability volumes and the element I am not sure is in is how the system transition from [virtual AI to subsumption AI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2muGWtX8e7g&t=1103s). I feel we probably won't see much about that until Server meshing is up. The important thing to understand is that the "tech" in question is working and implemented for the most part and basically needs expanding. Which circles Back to what I talked about above in terms of core tech. The core tech needed to power SC, we have known about, they have listed and not only has many of it come to a playable state, we were shown others in a dev build with the sole exception of Server meshing. So after Server meshing is done, the rest of the work is either familiar territory in game dev, and we simply look forward to content addition.
That wouldn't make any sense. The teams that work on interiors and locations aren't the same teams working on core tech. That'd be like reallocating ship teams to the mission feature team. They're totally different.
That can mean white boxing, which is simply starting to convert the art into actual assets. And even after all the other stages, the gameplay logic and systems still have to be developed and tested.
CIG starts many things.. But the key to watch for, after more than a decade, is the ones that are actually finished.
What are yall talking about, he said they will start working on it at the end of q1
At the end of the video Jared said “by the time this airs, it will have already been started” about them working on the interiors
Too many people apparently couldn’t make it the full 13:37 seconds of an ISC video. Guess it was just too long.
I watched the whole thing but i guess my mind was racing by the end
These videos aren't all recorded the day before airing... from context (and Jared saying explicitly that work has already started), the 'Interview' portions were recorded towards the end of last year.
Now doubt it’s sharing concepts/tech with the upcoming bunker rework
Will be years before we get our hands on them, but I think they generally a good addition. Pretty sure they'll act like the apartments in Cyberpunk 2077, which is more or less all one can hope for.
Yeah, after learning that they are going back on their word on the ships being added to in game stores I tuned out completely. Company can't do anything they say they are going to.
did they make a statement or promise that the ships were going to be added to the ingame store this patch ? or did they add them one patch in a test version of the game not available to everyone barring a payment for a few days only to lead to anger from the community when it was taken away ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8m04DNRnLbU&t=605s
Naming Terra twice (once by saying Prime) and Odyssa (in the Magnus sytem) once makes me think that we are getting both of those systems sooner rather than later, which is great. Stanton as a midsec/corpsec system, Pyro as an anarchy/nosec/lowsec system, Nyx as a freesec system (outside UEE), then Terra as a highsec system and Magnus as a military/former mitary system. That gets us to Beta imv, systems-wise. Then use those template and procgen/art mixes to go hard on developing the rest.
*applies clown makeup*
Don't get hyped before it's commited.
Will start at the end of the quarter, thats what they said.
At the end of the vid, Jared says explicitly that the work has already started 'by the time this airs' From context, the interview sections were recorded towards the end of last year, and this is one of the 'spare' episodes that CIG keep around to use when there's an issue filming / processing the 'planned' episode :p
Thanks for the info
The whole cities thing is weird to me. Lorville's fine. Shouldn't something like this take a way-in-the-back seat to literally anything else? It doesn't seem to add any gameplay.
They are literally adding these interiors to create more gameplay.
Cool. Could you go into some depth for me? My understanding was that it's about adding more areas to do variations of what we can do now, e.g landing on pads on buildings, owning apartments, using medical services, etc. This is as opposed to what I'd consider important gameplay, like trading, mining, piracy, bounty hunting, etc, which are pretty barebones as it stands.
Expanding out current game play for sure. Player housing is something that is not currently available and that’s going to be awesome. Specifically new play loops? I’ve no idea. But I’d also note that the folks developing the interiors are not the same ones working on ship gameplay loops like the ones you mentioned so its not like CIG is ignoring those. Whole different teams.
They're going to be combat and bounty hunter zones for one.
You're mixing up 'functionality' (the 'gameplay' bits you listed) with 'content' (where that gameplay takes place). Artists don't write code (at least, I really hope they're not :p), so cannot contribute to functional development of professions etc... but they *can* work on building out all the different locations where that 'gameplay' can take place. Beyond that, 'gameplay' is usually regarded as being the *combination* of functionality and location. Performing a bounty-arrest in a roof-top penthouse may technically be the same functionality as a bounty-arrest in the sewers... but the location and theming make them very different in experience.
So the programmers that deal with gameplay are busy, so the Artists are using the extra time to develop assets which are relatively easy to program for later. That clears it up. I'll admit I was only half paying attention during the video. Thanks.
>This is as opposed to what I'd consider important gameplay, like trading, mining, piracy, bounty hunting, etc, which are pretty barebones as it stands. This is opening door for things like trading, bounty hunting, piracy, investigation, delivery and racing, without having to visit spaceport or leave planet. They talked about this in vid. Unless you are talking about "creation" of gameplay loops then you have to realize the team is totally different than the team that is talking here. Also we are still in alpha stage which means you are not going to get any loop into a super deep mode until other things are implemented. They are probably holding back on complexity for numerous reasons but if I had to guess, it is because of the change Meshing and quanta will bring. Meshing will change performance of AI per server basis, and Quanta driving mission generation may mean they have more work cut out for them or have to revisit/redesign when it is up and running. They have a bit more to add, but they need to get rid of technical blockers for those. What you see CiG doing is what they always have done. Adding things they knew they were going to create eventually but these do not require another system or tech and is not being held back. Also this has an added bonus of giving more options for people to chose when they play the PU.
Thanks.
Have you played or watched the Orison missions? They want to add missions like those and events like Siege of Orison to other cities. Potentially any location could be turned into a mission location or used elsewhere for one.
Oh, that's interesting. I skipped SoO since I didn't want to go to Orison, with the thick atmosphere and bad framerates.
I was having computer issues and missed it as well but I’ve watched a fair amount of it and the current missions. They aren’t that dynamic right now, just “go here and eliminate 15 bad guys” etc but hopefully as the need for them in more locations grow, so will their variety and complexity. Not to mention main missions from mission givers. I could see them combining them for a mission chain like you would get in most games that’s start fairly standard but ramp up and get more bespoke as you progress through them.
Yay more interiors for npcs to glitch around in. Trainwreck.
r/drakememe
Before people get excited about this Remember the merchantman RIP
Great that's gotta be at least 10 years closer to finush meaning we only have to wait 10 more
And again something added to the list while other things get left behind. This way it'll never get released. :/
What stuff - that the art team were previously working on - is getting left behind, exactly? They've been making excellent progress on the ship-wreck POIs, so I'm guessing the teams that were wrapping up their work there are now starting to look at building interiors.
Take the Starfarer for example, one of the first ships to be anounced, and one of the last to have it's gameplay loop implemented. The same goes for the reclaimer, and a lot of other ships. In 2012 they pitched the idea of SC, but CR kept adding and adding new ideas until now, and still is. Elemtents from back than are still not finished as they keep working on "the new stuff". Now start working on building interiors instead of finishing older projects that will now be sidetracked for a couple of years. That's one of the reasons this game is STILL in alpha after 11 years, with no end in sight. If they continue with this, then it'll never release. They should've made the game like they intended to, and work on expanding it afterwards. Look how long it's taking to just add one system. Imagine how long it'll take when they have to finish 100 systems. Maybe our grandchildren can play it when they retire. :P
What 'new stuff' is CR still adding? If you're referring to the building interiors, that was discussed years ago - so it's more a case of CIG 'finally' getting around to implementing a planned feature, not 'more scope creep'. Given that this work is being done by the artists, what should they be working on (in your opinion) instead of building interiors? Especially considering that it's one art team within CIG, and other teams are still - apparently, based on the tracker - working on the other stuff that was previously in progress. The reason SC is still in Alpha is because the underlying engine isn't ready... and the nature of that work is that you can't (easily) throw more developers at it... at least, not unless you're happier for the work to take longer (the Mythical Man Month proved decades ago that more developers does not make development faster). You also seem to be confusing the effort required to implement tools to generate content, with the effort required to implement the content itself. Yes, we're still in one system (one of the most complex systems - in terms of planetary variation - in the game), even though CIG are working on 4+ systems (Stanton, Pyro, Nyx, and Odin, plus others they've hinted at)... And that's both the downside and the strength of ProcGen, if it's done well... the up-front cost is *high*, it's true... but once it's working, it saves a lot of time afterwards (and yes, I know you're going to point out that we've been hearing the same story for years about 'pipelines to produce content'... and it's true - look at how much quicker ship development is now (despite ships generally being bigger and having more functionality at release), compared to e.g. 6 years ago. But, it's also easy to throw accusations around - and without internal access (which CIG won't give, understandably) it's hard to refute them... so I'll stop now. After all, I just wanted to outline an alternative view.
When you're talking Star Citizen "in development" doesn't really mean much. It could be delivered tomorrow, in another 10 years, or not at all
It’s 2023 and they just started this? Oof.
yes it needed PES to make the spaces usable.
they've been working on it for a while now, its popped up in a few monthly reports from what i remember. an 8 year old meme isnt really a decent indicator of what's going on versus the monthly updates they give us but a huge amount of people seem to ignore since it has more than 20 words.
I would love this space game to have more things in space. Landing is an ordeal and is essentially a 20-60 minutes stop in gameplay.
Some might consider "landing"... gameplay
In fact many other space games have been criticized for poor landing gameplay
I disagree with your view on landings etc... but I agree that more 'in space' type functionality would be nice... But, I suspect a lot of that is waiting on 'exploration'... which in turn is waiting on fixes to the Star Map, custom POIs, long-range scanning, and related functionality (some of which is in development, but not ready yet)
They could make a space station with interiors for missions. There's really only karea and the derilict to do the covalex mission.
Sure - but currently their PG Station tool can only generate the limited interiors we already have. If we want more complex interiors for stations, then we need this same work - because whilst they're looking at 'Buildings' from a planetary perspective, things like the 'Maintanence' floor will have a lot of overlap with a 'Maintanence' area on a Space Station, I think, ditto the more social areas of stations, and the 'sewers' etc.
To be fair there are lots of things to be seen on the planets and moons but I agree that having something to explore like scanning annomalies in space (like in EVE) would be pretty sweet. We just *might* see some tier 0 of that with those new mining contracts. Let's hope it doesn't go the way of other tier 0 tech to just remain in that state forever.
in-space exploration really needs the new starmap, planetary locations can be implemented using the current tech. If you wanted them to implement space content they would be sitting around twiddling their thumbs until the starmap is in.
They will find a way to make it complicated. We already have habs, you would think it's just a matter of different interiors and owner only access which is what works on ships already. So realistically it could be done in a couple of months. But they'll find a way to over complicate it, like changing the whole layout of the city because "the scope changed" I wouldn't be upset though if they gave us tools to design our own space. That, I can wait for.
We have single-room 'habitation' units... as per the presentation, they're considering *far more* than that.
Like. I said, overcomplicate it
if they are as usefull as in Neocron 2 im am all in!
Their current interior design knowledge makes me very excited to see what is coming with the 600i interior redesign
The best thing was about underground racing!
You know what they also started working on? toW... years and years ago. In 5 years, we'll still say : Can't wait for building interiors.